Why Scott Galloway Wants Us To Celebrate Masculinity, Not Diminish It | On With Kara Swisher

23:37And I immediately connected the dots that in a capitalist society, your selection set of mates is broadened if you are economically viable. So where was the moment being a parent when you realized maybe spending more time The time was what was valuable? Well, so the seminal moments in your life are pretty predictable. They're usually about life and death. My mom died. It changed everything for me. And also when my first son was born. And it wasn't a hallmark or a life insurance commercial. The first thing I felt when my son came marching out on my partner was fear and shame. I had been working so hard, taking so many risks.

24:13And I came of age in the 90s, and you were there on the internet where you were supposed to go all in on a company. Yeah. Put everything, borrow against your stock because you're in it to win it. And I'm so fucking awesome that if I throw 110 % at Red Envelope, it just went public. And I was one of those idiots that borrowed money to buy more stock. And the VCs and your board love that. And they don't want you to sell any stock because I thought you were in it to win it. And then when 08 came, I lost everything. I was broke. And my son is born. And the first thing I felt was not bright lights and angels singing.

24:43It was shame and fear. Like, oh, my God, it's no longer. I could always take care of myself. I'm not a humble person. I'm remarkably talented. I work hard. I knew I could always take care of myself. But sitting there with a new kid who was going to be vulnerable, with his mom who was going to need some time and need to focus on the kid, I felt like I had failed as a man. It was an awful feeling. I remember feeling so nauseous and so scared and just this feeling of dread. And it was very, very motivating for me. And I worked around the clock for the next five or seven years, maybe 10 years. And let me be clear, it came at a cost.

25:20I was not with my kids, as little kids, as much as I would have liked. They would have benefited from it. And quite frankly, Kara was worth it. And I'm not talking about the way the world should be. I'm talking about the way the world is. I have an exceptional amount of balance, an exceptional amount of involvement in my kids' lives now because I made the conscious decision not to. Now, you can balance. It doesn't mean you don't see them. But I thought it was my job to make sure that in a capitalist society, my kids are going to, and me, we're going to have the opportunities that a capitalist society provides by being very focused on work.

25:54And one of my first kind of, I have this story, this three legs to the stool of masculinity. I think the first is being a provider. And I think every young man should assume that he needs to take economic responsibility for his household. And let me be clear. Sometimes that means getting out of the way and being more supportive of your partner who happens to be better at that money thing than you. That is also being a man. Yeah. And a lot of women now who are attending college in greater rates have greater economic opportunities. And while women's economic contribution to the relationship is accelerated, men's contribution domestically and logistically has not kept pace.

26:26At the same time, we also have to acknowledge, not in all households, but in a lot of households, when the woman starts making more money than the man, usage of ED drugs triples, the likelihood of divorce doubles. There are still expectations in heterosexual relationships that the man has a disproportionate responsibility to be an economic provider. Sure, but it comes at a cost, right? No doubt. There's no free lunch here. Right. You talked about this three-legged stool that you talk about a lot, and you said protect, provide, procreate. Explain how you're defining, because the big thesis of your book is how you're trying to reclaim the idea of masculinity to something to celebrate.

27:04right? You're also trying to reimagine what it means to be a man in society. So talk a little bit about what that, because those are sort of typical male viewpoints. Well, so I think you want to be emotionally, mentally, physically, and economically strong, and you want to develop economic viability. It takes discipline, it takes credentials, it takes focus. But the whole point of that. That's a means. The ends is the second stool, and that is protection. And that is, I've enjoyed making money. It was really rewarding to make it with someone else. Like, we sacrificed a lot. My partner and I, she worked.

27:42And making it together was the fun part. But the real purpose, the real peace I think you get as an adult, I think this is true of women in addition, but also I think maybe more so for a man. The only time I've ever really felt peace and I've escaped the trap of more. I always wanted, my whole life, no matter how much money I made, I want more. No matter how famous I got, I want to be more famous and awesome. No matter how many women I dated, wait, I could date hotter women. No matter how fabulous my weekends were, I want fucking more. All the time, my appetite was never sated. The only time I've ever felt sated is late at night, my kids are asleep, or they roll into the room and instinctively throw their legs over mine.

28:23I know my partner feels secure and safe and protected. And I feel like, quite frankly, I feel like a man. I feel like my life makes sense, that I have taken skills and strength to become a provider, to become emotionally supportive, to notice their lives. I know they know I love them immensely. And I feel like my role as a protector has worked. That, to me, is the most satisfying thing. And I think a lot of men never get there. But you're not, because some of the words protect, provide, and procreate sound musky, like a little bit. Like it's in the aggressive kind of masculinity. And it's not, I think, what you're saying exactly, right?

29:03Look, the most masculine jobs at a very basic level are considered fireman, cop, and military person. And at the end of the day, they protect. But I also think a form of protection is to notice people's lives. And when I think about, you know, I've been married twice. And when I think about where I failed in my first marriage, you know, everyone talks about people want a sensitive man. I'm not sure that's true. I don't. And I snarkily say that, you know, do you really want a sensitive man? That just leaves two people in the car crying in the parallel parking spot on park. But I think what men need to do a better job, and I think what also what it means to be a man, is that you slow down from yourself and your own ego and you notice other people's lives.

29:45You realize that your partner needs distinct stages where strangers can clap for her. You need to understand what might be important to her, even if it's not important to you. It's important because it's important to her. You realize, you notice how hard it is to work and take care of kids. Because I don't care what anyone says. Women almost always take on a disproportionate amount of child rearing. They just can hear the kid get up at night. You sleep like a log and the kid's upstairs and she's already up there because she can hear. He's up there. You know, I sleep like a log, but go ahead. You sleep right through it?

30:20You just scream? When Amanda first started going out, the kids were yelling, and I was sleeping right through it. And she's like, are you sleeping right through this? I'm like, what are you talking about? You're like, numbers three and four. Just don't care. Honey badger don't give a shit. I've been here. They'll be fine. I slept through the first two. They'll be fine. They'll be fine. Exactly. But it's redefining what that means, right? because I think you are talking about a sensitive man. You know you are. You're just not talking about, like, the sensitive new age male, you know, imagery. Because this is a sensitive man.

30:54I think there's some consumer dissonance here. I really do think that, for example, 80 % of women say they want men to initiate romantic contact. So for all this notion and all this fear about a man being a creep or, you know, men, a lot of women will come up to me, in bars or in social situations, and they will complain that no men approach them. They look great. They're out. They're obviously at a bar. They're ready. They're single and ready to mingle, and men don't speak to them. And I think a lot of young men are not developing the skills and have gotten mixed messages around taking risks and approaching people and making them feel safe.

31:31Because say you're a guy and you approach a woman at a bar, and it ends up she's one of the 300 ,000 people that works at J.P. Morgan, and he says something stupid, and he's drunk. He's now that guy. He's now that creep. And so I think we have to, and this goes to procreation, I think in a weird way, we need to re-embrace young men's horniness. And I use that word. It's because you like to say it. But I think of sexual desires like fire. I think it can be very damaging. I think if men spend too much time on porn or start to think of women as just sexual objects, it creates unrealistic expectations, and they start to develop misogynistic tendencies and they objectify women.

32:12But at the same time, wanting to have a romantic partner and eventually a sexual partner can be channeled like fire. If it's put into a steel casing with pistons can move a much bigger vehicle in your life forward. You should use that desire to want to dress better, smell better, have a plan, demonstrate kindness. The secret weapon, and there's research around this, the secret weapon, if you want to find romantic and sexual partners for a man, The three reasons women are attracted to men sexually are, one, they signal resources. And it doesn't even have to be you have a Range Rover or Panerai at the moment.

32:47It can be that you have your act together and you're disciplined and you're smart. You don't buy another bottle of Grey Goose at 2 a.m. You go home because you have work the next morning. Two, you're intelligent. And that's very instinctual. The people who make good decisions for the tribe, the tribe is more likely to prosper and survive. And the fastest way to communicate intelligence is humor. I've always jokingly said, this is my interpretation of a woman. I'm laughing, I'm laughing, I'm naked. And when I was younger, when I was younger, I try to be very raw about this stuff. And I know it's going to trigger some people.

33:20But when I was younger, the only dates I ever got, and there were few and far between, Cara, was with women I could make laugh. Yeah. That was it. And then the third thing, and this is the secret weapon. And there's research just, though, that the third thing is kindness. Yeah. Because instinctively, women know they're physically smaller and they will go through periods of gestation where they will need someone kind. Oh, okay. On that note, every episode we have an expert question. And speaking of laughing and women, let's listen to yours. Hi, my name is Michelle Wolf. My question for Scott is based on a video I saw you did about how a man's secret weapon is kindness.

34:03You know, lovely. should kind of just be like a basic instinct, you would think, but glad we're getting there somehow. My question for you is, because I think this would be a real secret weapon for men, is why can't they find anything? They can't find anything from like a phone charger to like something in the fridge to their emotions. They can't they can't find anything. And I just why? Why is that? Why, Scott? I did. So I'm getting emotional. You're a huge fan of her. I was worried I was getting emotional talking about. I get emotional. That was so kind of you. I've been trying to track down Michelle.

34:41Michelle Wolf is my favorite comedian in the world. I know. And I've been trying to track her down, and I can't get to her. She won't return my emails. And you found her. Of course. For you. So my ex-wife used to say to me, if my dick wasn't attached, we'd find it on a card table next to a script of Goodfellas in Soho. I'm always five minutes away from losing my keys. I cannot, I'm going to have to live in a single floor unit the rest of my life because I spent 30 minutes going back to find my sunglasses and my wallet. You have lots of them. Like, Scott has a drawer of AirPods, just so you know, in New York, which I've liberally borrowed from.

35:17One of the first things I did when I got money was I said to my assistant, I never want to have keys again. I can't have keys. Yeah. Go back to kindness. She was really saying it shouldn't be a basic instinct. Yeah, but here's the thing. I do think, and I coach young men around this, have a kindness practice. And it starts with manners. I try to get one of my favorite moments of my youngest was I said, you never pour your own water first. And you always look around the table and you pour other people's water. And we're in this restaurant. We just moved to London. So he was, I think, 11. And we're at a restaurant.

35:51And they brought over this giant pitcher of water. And he got out of his seat, went over, picked up the pitcher of water, which was bigger than him, and whirled up to another table and poured their glasses of water. He thought you were supposed to do that. You're supposed to scan the entire environment for empty water glasses. And I'm like, he's going to be a man. I think it starts with manners. It starts with saying to yourself, okay, how do I demonstrate acts every day from people who can't reciprocate them such that it becomes muscle memory? Because I got to be honest, Kara, I don't think I'm an innately kind person.

36:23I don't think I grew up with a lot of role models around kindness. So as I've gotten older, I've tried to just practice it every day such that it becomes second nature. And I think women notice this. Well, is that because women have to be kind? You know, it's a survival instinct versus men who don't have to be. So, and I want to be clear, I'm not an expert on adolescent psychiatry. I'm definitely not an expert on gender studies. But I think women, a lot of women believe that the world and men and society judge them based on their nurturing qualities, which embedded in that is kindness. And the words we use for women who are tough and don't demonstrate kindness in the workplace are much more negative.

37:05If a guy's harsh and he's Steve Jobs, he's cruel but smart, he's a genius. If you had a female Steve Jobs in the 90s, I can't even imagine the words that would have been used to describe her. Bitch. So, I would have been worse than that. Yeah. So, but I do think that a kindness practice and also one of the things that's unfortunate about mating is that if you talk to people who've been together longer than 30 years, they did a survey of couples who've been together forever. 70 to 80 % of them, one was much more interested in the other in the beginning. You know, this kind of romantic comedy where people see each other and fall in love, that's just not how it works or not usually.

37:44And almost always, like 90 % of the cases, it was the man much more interested in the woman. Because men are much less choosy. We want to spread our seed to the four corners of the earth, and women want to put up a much finer screen to pick the smartest, fastest, and strongest seed. If you're in a room of 400 people, something like 300 of the men, if there's alcohol involved, would have sex with most of the women. Most of the women would have sex with none of the men. And so the way women fall in love or fall in like is if a man can demonstrate excellence. I worked with him, and he was really good at what he did.

38:20Or I went to temple with him, and he was kind to his parents. I liked the way he smelled. I love his body language. We hung out. We were just friends, and I found out he was really funny. You know, I liked the way he danced. And the problem is now is there are very few venues to demonstrate excellence. We'll be back in a minute.

38:42Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded, so you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you, like tea time you. Mmm. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you. So did you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you. Mmm. So update on Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rinse. It's time to be great. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios upcoming comedy, Ella McKay. From Academy Award winning writer, director James L. Brooks, Emma Mackey plays Ella McKay, an idealistic young woman who juggles family and work in a story about the people you love and how to survive them.

39:29featuring an all-star cast including Jamie Lee Curtis, Jack Loudon, Kumail Nanjiani, Iowa Debris, Julie Kavner with Albert Brooks and Woody Harrelson. Ella McKay in theaters December 12. Let's move on to masculinity today in politics and pop culture. President Trump and MAGA movements strategically courted young men during the 2024 election by flying into the manosphere. They filled the political vacuum with coarse language, Joe Rogan, UFC, meme coins. It's a regressive version of masculinity, which you're not writing about. But why did it work? And it's now not working, apparently. There's a lot like Rogan is sort of shifting back.

40:08A lot of young men are showing polling. There was just a poll today, which is shifting towards where you are, I think, more. But why did that work from your perspective? What was resonant? Risk aggression. A risk aggression. They say things that are indelicate. it. They take risks. You know, Elon Musk is enormously masculine in the sense that men, in order for our species to survive, men have needed to have a propensity to, they see movement in the bushes. They don't overthink it. They grab a fucking spear and go and try and kill it and bring it back. That young men, the reason we have an unbelievable democracy is because a lot of, mostly young men, but a lot of young women have a willingness to do really aggressive, borderline stupid shit, and that is rush a pillbox and try and take out the enemy.

40:59And a lot of people would describe that as recklessness, but there is valor involved. And that is the Carnegie Award, which awards people who risk their own lives in the moment to save someone else from harm. You know, literally, that's the rushing into a burning building. They give about 80 a year, 75 are men. Men are more risk aggressive. And some of that is very positive. Some of that can be channeled into a man on a combat field is more likely to put himself in harm's way to save a fellow comrade. A woman is more likely to say, let's think about this and not be stupid. And quite frankly, you need both.

41:33You need both in combat. But risk aggression, again, if I highlight attributes that reflect women in a positive light, people nod their head and say, that's fine. If I highlight attributes that reflect men in a positive light, there's a bit of a check your notes and fear. And is this guy one of those guys? Right. So you asked what the positive thing is. I'll say with Musk, the guy takes enormous risks and we need risk aggressive young males. So that's an attractive trait, but then it veers into cruelty. Now, I want you to make a case to voters on the left. How do you overcome legitimate concerns that talking about boys right now is going to crowd out conversations that others have of losing rights, losing access, representation?

42:15How do you talk about both at the same time? Because it feels like it's been an either or, right? Either we talk about women and others, marginalized communities, or we talk about men. I feel like, well, if men are mad, we're all fucked, really, in some fashion. But how does the left talk about it so that it's not someone has to lose, right? What's the positive way of talking about it? Well, this isn't a zero-sum game. Gay marriage didn't hurt heteronormative marriage. I mean, we can absolutely acknowledge women still face huge barriers. The moment a woman decides to use her ovaries, which is pretty important for the species, she goes to 73 cents on the dollar.

42:52Her career is much more difficult when she has kids. There's still huge issues. There's still just a fraction of medical research around the cancers affecting women. I mean, it's just like, okay, so we don't care about women's health? So there's still huge issues. But what I would say is if I were to say advise the next president on what the key word is, it'd be restoration. We need to restore our alliances with our great trading partners and other democracies. We need to restore the alliance between moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats to have a working middle. But I think the greatest alliance in history is the alliance between men and women.

43:25And unfortunately, both genders have done a great job of convincing themselves that it's the other gender's fault. And when we talk about the great civil rights acts, when we talk about women's rights, what we also need to acknowledge is there were a lot of very masculine men at the forefront of that. It was a collective effort. It wasn't just women threatening men like saying, we're not going to raise your kids unless you do this. There was enormous leadership among women that was needed who were fearless and drove these changes. But they also had a huge base of support from confident, loving men who realized this was really important.

43:58So we need to start conflating masculinity with the protection of special interest groups. You don't even need to understand the trans community. You may think it's ridiculous to have a third bathroom. You may think, okay, we shouldn't have transgender athletes in NCAA sports. But your immediate instinct should be if you see a community being demonized, as the transgender community has been weaponized and demonized, your default has to be protection. And I say, well, what you have to raise, what we need to raise our boys around and masculinity around is that women cross the street when they see men on that side of the street because they feel safe.

44:35And the reality is they don't right now. No, I still cross streets. Yeah. But you did write that the 2024 election was a referendum on failing young men. And we talked about that a lot on the podcast. So how can Democrats try to win back some of those voters who felt alienated by the party's perceived weakness and hostility towards men? Because we're dealing with more than just a bad election cycle. There's a broader cultural shift that's happened here. What is the strategy? Well, I think your instincts are correct, and that is to develop the strategy you have to diagnose the issue. And the reason we elected an insurrectionist president, I believe, was because of struggling young men.

45:10And that is, if you look at the three groups that pivoted hardest from blue to red, it was one. Latinos who don't want to be, a lot of issues there, it's hard to even define them as one group. Numbers two and three were people under the age of 30. They just want change. They just want chaos. And then the most interesting thing is the third cohort that shifted hardest from blue to red was women age 45 to 64. And my thesis is that's their mother's care, because again, this triggers some people, but there's still a lot of women in America who will vote for whoever they perceive as being in the best interest of their husbands or their sons.

45:43And when your son isn't doing well and your husband is out of work. You don't care about territorial sovereignty in Ukraine or transgender rights. You just want change. And Trump is a chaos agent. He represents change. Now, how do you move forward? The right has incorrectly and I think stupidly conflated masculinity with coarseness and cruelty, and I don't think that's working. At the same time, the left, Kara, has said the answer to masculinity is you should act more like a woman. Right. And I don't think that's right either. So who should men be modeling? Is it like Travis Kelsey, Pete Buttigieg?

46:13I was with one of them last night, Van Jones. Super strong, super smart, not afraid to say fairly provocative things, not afraid to go against the grain, but also, you know, a dad, a good provider. I think we have to say, first, even acknowledging on the left that there's a difference and there's certain attributes that certain genders are more prone to is upsetting for some people on the left. Even acknowledging that our young men are struggling and that they deserve programs. Governor Moore, who I think is a great role model, came out and said that the focus of his administration was going to be on struggling young men.

46:50That was a very brave thing to do. Recognizing that the physical strength, the risk aggressiveness of young men, the valor they demonstrate, plays a huge role in society and that it's needed. Investing in third places where young people can find each other, demonstrate excellence, and fall in love. I think we absolutely need to embrace a modern form of masculinity, acknowledge that it's a good thing, that it's not a bad thing, acknowledge there is a difference. Acknowledging that 95 % of us are binary and have an easier time leaning into certain characteristics more commonly associated with the gender you were born with does not mean that the middle 5 % deserve any less respect or opportunity.

47:30So is there a what a man besides me who would be your male role models?

47:37a guy like richard reeves outstanding what he does handsome strong i said uh van jones a guy like obama guy like um muhammad ali who had a set of core principles that he was were non-negotiable for him um you know i think i'll give you an example i think hillary clayton demonstrates wonderful masculinity i think she's incredibly strong yeah and by the way it's a key it's a key point because I think femininity should be celebrated, but so should masculinity. And those attributes aren't sequestered to people born as men or women. I'm drawn, and I've told you this, most of my close male friends are very feminine.

48:16They are. And they take care of me. They're very nurturing. And those are wonderful attributes. And there are some women I know, including yourself, that demonstrate wonderful masculinity. But I think it's okay to say we need to celebrate it and that young men have an easier time leaning into it and that we value our young men and we value these attributes. And also to tell young men it's okay, A, they have an obligation to be a provider, a protector, and a procreator and to be strong, to make money, to approach strange women, to demonstrate a romantic interest while making people feel safe, to want to make money, to want to be patriotic, to want to be strong.

48:52These are all wonderful things and you should lean into it. So let's finish up with talking about some solutions. A lot of your advice is great on an individual level, but some of the forces holding men back are going to require collective action or legislation even. No amount of telling your friends you love them is going to stop robots from taking jobs or making housing cheaper, for example. Some of the reforms we talked about on Pivot, including regulating tech, including age-gating social media and AI chatbots and stuff around porn, making schools phone-free zones. Talk about what, to help boys and men, what are the most realistic reforms states or Congress or anything could make to make it happen?

49:28And culturally, how do we create a positive momentum for boys at an early age that reverses some of the trends that plague them as they get older? Lack of meaningful friendships, higher addiction rates is united, higher suicide rates. Well, the incumbents, mostly technology and people who don't want to acknowledge that young men are struggling, will claim these issues are too complex. We have screwed this up. We can unscrew it. There are a lot of programs that we could enact pretty quickly. So let's start with schooling. red shirt boys boys are 18 months behind women in terms of prefrontal cortex maturity they're just immature relative to girls boys start kindergarten at six girls start at five more male teachers in high schools more efforts to recruit them it's now it's verging towards one in four teachers in k through 12 are men we need to acknowledge that boys are twice as likely to be suspended for the same behavioral adjusted behavior in schools as girls we need to acknowledge that boys probably need more physical activity.

50:27When you have boys-only schools, they have double the amount of recess. They're just different. Think about what you want in school. Sit still, raise your hand, be a pleaser, be organized. I know, it's designed for girls. You just described a girl. More vocational programming. There's a ton of vocational jobs. There's all these stories about kids who are 17, take auto shop, learn how to install an EV battery or energy-efficient HVAC and are making$110 ,000 by the time they're 18. Stop shaming vocational programming and weaponize our public universities I said at least 20 % of their degrees are non-traditional certification, whether it's nursing.

50:58You've given money in this area. I have. Or building nuclear power plants, whatever it might be. Specialty construction, realizing that two-thirds of our kids are not cut out to get a traditional liberal arts degree. If you are not expanding your freshman class size faster than population growth, you lose your tax-free status. Universities are public servants, not fucking Chanel bags. We need to stop this rejectionist, exclusionary culture that makes it so expensive for people to go to school and disproportionately hurts young men because, quite frankly, academically, they typically don't have their shit together by the time they're 18.

51:29Seven to ten high school valedictorians are girls. If we were totally admissions blind at NYU, it'd probably be 70 or 80 percent female. So I'm not suggesting we have affirmative action for boys. I think we need more seats so we can let in more Republicans, more gay kids, more trans kids, and more men. I think we need a massive rethink about our tax policy because essentially our tax policy care just transfers money from young people to old people. I think we should have mandatory national service. Me too. I think that a lot of young men and a lot of young women, but especially a lot of young men, just aren't ready for college or just haven't gotten their shit together.

52:05And I think having a very structured environment where they get to meet great people from different sexual orientations, income backgrounds, ethnicities, serving in the agency of their country. I think we need young people to just see how wonderful other Americans are and develop a greater fidelity for the flag as opposed to identify as Americans before they identify as a special interest group. Yep, I agree. And I think it would be great seasoning for them. And then another tax policy, I actually think we need to subsidize third places. I think we need to figure out a way to get people more incentive.

52:34You know what? People can't afford to go to bars. They can't afford to go out and drink and meet each other. Sports leagues, church groups are all closing down because people are inside. So I want to end my last question about asking about your dad. We haven't talked about your dad. Your dad passed away a few months ago. He had a lot of shortcomings as a father, which you've pointed out. You make a lot of jokes about it. But in a lot of ways, he was a counter model to you and how you wanted to raise your sons. But I want to talk about what he might have done that was positive for you. And how do you want your sons to remember him?

53:08That's a generous question. Look, my dad checked the instinctive box that every adult, every parent, every man needs to check. And that is he was a much better father to me than his father was to him. His father used to come home drunk. And I didn't know this. His sister told me this. His father used to come home drunk when he was a kid and wake him up and beat him. And, you know, you think about the person who's supposed to be the protector in your life. Right. And you get woken up and you get physically abused. He was never physically abusive to me. And he left school. He was pulled out of school to work as a messenger at the age of 13.

53:43So he just didn't have a lot of great role models or like. So he was and he did lead my mom and I. He made life much harder for us than he then was probably needed. But at the same time, he did try. He would he'd be in Chicago and try and figure out a way to fly me out there. And then he would take me to a museum, which I could tell he had no interest in. And neither did I, but he thought he was supposed to take a kid to a museum. So, you know, he tried. And then later in life, you know, he—and it's never too late to do this—he became very loving. And what I would say to any man is that just because you—with your kid, if you weren't as sensitive or as affectionate or as emotive as you could have been, it's never too late.

54:27because that's kind of the memory I have of my father was he would, for 10 years, the last 20 years of his life, whenever we talk on the phone, he'd say, I love you. And it took me 10 years to say it back because it just felt awkward. I'm like, dad, I could have used this at eight. I need it at 38. But let me put it this way. At a very basic level, Kara, he tried. He was better to me than his father was to me. And also, I have made an exceptional living communicating. I got that from my father. My father could hold a room like no person. And I have to acknowledge, and just because he didn't try, he didn't give it to me on a silver platter, there's no reason you can't be grateful.

55:05Right. And he also, he, I made, the best decision I ever made was the decision my dad made. And that is he got on a steamship at the age of 19 and came to America. So his risk aggressiveness, deciding to come to America, paid huge dividends for me. I wouldn't be on this podcast with you if I'd been born in Glasgow, Scotland. I wouldn't be. you know i just wouldn't have nearly the opportunities i had so the risks he took have uh the dna i inherited from him the ability to be born in a you know being born in san diego and the fact that he tried and towards the end of his life he really did try to be a decent loving man you know that's probably better than a lot of dads and also what i would tell people men and women who are parents of divorce you have a tendency to sanctify one and demonize the other And what you realize as you get older is, yeah, the one wasn't perfect and the other one wasn't Darth Vader.

56:00Right, right, right. Yep, that's a really good point. Our very last question. What's something you've learned from your sons about being a man?

56:11Look, for me, what I've gotten for my boys is it's my purpose. I finally feel as if I have my purpose. So I always used to think that somewhere my purpose was, or what I was driving toward, try to be more awesome, try to be more wealthy, try to be more relevant. Yeah, better skin. And then when you have boys, it's like, okay, my job is to raise loving, patriotic men. And so just the opportunity to raise them. You know, you learn a lot as a parent. One of the first things, one of the most upsetting things, I learned, I'm not their friend, I'm their dad. I love Michelle Obama's parenting advice.

56:47It's like you kind of have to be an asshole, so they're not assholes. Like you have to have really hard conversations. I had a very hard conversation with my 15-year-old before I got on the plane. Sometimes he's not cooperative or respectful with his mother when I'm out of the house. And I had to, you know, so you're not their friend. You want them to know you love them immensely. But what I have learned from my boys or what they've given me is I finally have a sense of purpose for the first time in my life. It sounds weird, but I don't want to say I don't fear death, but I finally feel like I could go and have meant something because I have really good, you know, as you do.

57:20I have really good sons who are going to be good citizens and are kind and they're nice and they're good to their mom. And I know they're going to take care of their mom. I know that they feel a sense of obligation to be good to society. So it's like I feel this sense of purpose and relief, like all this kind of maybe meant something. Yeah. Well, you've done a good job. They're nice boys. Thank you. Anyway, Scott, this is a wonderful book. I really appreciate you talking for so long. It's called Notes on Being a Man, and you're a good man. Thank you, Cara. I appreciate that. And I'm blessed to have you in my life and all of the masculine attributes that you bring to the table.

57:55I'm being Hillary Clinton.

58:01Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Rochelle, Kateri Yoakum, Michelle Alloy, Megan Burney, and Caitlin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer podcast. special thanks to Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following this show, you're a male role model. If not, turn off the porn and go outside. Go over, listen to podcasts, search for On With Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us.

58:36We'll be back on Thursday with more. Thank you.