Zelensky's White House Return, Newsom Trolls Trump, and Guest Co-Host Abby Phillip

28:02It comes out different as if his brain has been fried or something. I think Trump is super impressed, by the way, Kara, by Putin. I think that's a big part of it. He's just very impressed by him. He thinks that he's got it figured out. He's arranged Russian society in a way that he admires. I think Trump really just thinks Putin is doing it better than anybody else. And he's not concerned about the moral quandary of Putin killing dissidents and perhaps doing war crimes and all of that stuff, it's an admiration at the heart of it. And he doesn't admire someone like Zelensky. By the way, First Lady Melania Trump entered the chat, oddly.

28:42She wrote what's being called a peace letter to Putin that Trump hand-delivered at the summit. In the letter, she tells Putin it's time to protect children and says he can single-handedly restore their melodic laughter. It was a strange letter, but I see her point. Some people are wondering if the letter was AI-generated. They don't know. So it's about the children that Russia has taken from Ukraine and are bringing to Russia. It's really quite a heinous act on behalf of the Russians. Any thoughts on this? Were you surprised? I'm not surprised, no, because I think this is how Melania likes to engage in these things.

29:18She picks an aspect of it that she thinks is sort of universal, which I think this probably is, and weighs in. And I think it's fine. I think it's good and it's nice. Do I think it matters? No. Yeah, she's somewhat anti-Putin from what I can read, that she's the one shifting him over a little more against. She's obviously from countries where this— Right, yeah. I mean, I think that would make sense, just like given her background. But I also think that, I mean, she has a lot of influence over her husband. So if it were me, I think that's probably the best place to exert influence is with the president of the United States.

30:03Yeah, presumably. Yeah, I was sort of surprised, but it was a strange letter. But I was like, OK, sure. We'll see what happens. Talk a little bit about this takeover of Washington. You don't live there any longer, but he's Republican governors from three states are sending National Guard troops to D.C., Joining already 800 mobilized in the Capitol, the Wall Street Journal is reporting that guard troops may soon be carrying weapons, which is frightening for a D.C. resident like myself. A reversal from the original orders, but the Trump administration has backed off its original push to take over the police force after the city filed an emergency restraining order calling Trump's actions a hostile takeover.

30:39It's been one week since Trump announced the takeover. He's obviously putting troops on display in places where there's not high crime, such as Union Station or on 14th Street. I mean, there is petty crime on 14th Street, really, for the most part. But what do you think about what's happening there as a former D.C. resident and what it represents? Yeah, alongside. I mean, you know, Cara, I was there on Friday briefly, very briefly. And I don't know if you feel this way. I don't know how recently you were because you travel so much, but I was shocked by how quiet and almost deserted the city felt.

31:22Well, it could be the summer, but yeah. It could be the summer, but it was striking. And then, so I say that, and that was my gut feeling. I was like, this is odd. I was in the middle of Chinatown. There were no people. Yeah, restaurants are down, restaurant reservations. So then there's this reporting about a dramatic drop, 25%, 33 % in restaurant reservations and foot traffic and bars. Bars are, you know, these businesses are just saying this is totally unsustainable. And look, we will know more later, but I'm starting there just because the premise of this whole thing is that D.C. residents want this deep down inside because they want to feel safer so that they can go about their lives without fear, a threat of violence against them.

32:11Yeah, we don't fear that, but go ahead. But the reality of it is that people are avoiding being in the city right now because nobody wants to live in a society that is militarized. Right. I don't like going to countries that are militarized when you go to a country. Nobody likes going to countries that are militarized. When we travel, I've been to places that are more militarized than here, and you see the tanks in the street and the guards with the semi-automatic long guns and all that stuff, it does not make you feel more safe. It makes you feel surveilled. And I think that the proof is in the pudding.

32:50So even if you take their premise that D.C. is so unsafe that there's a quiet support for this among people who live there, I think the proof is that that's not the case, because otherwise they would be running around like, Now we can finally have sushi. Yeah, now we can finally do all the things. No, they're avoiding being in parts of the city. That's the first thing. And I think the second thing is that D.C. is the place that they are doing it because they can. And that's the challenge with D.C., is that truly the citizens of the District of Columbia have very few rights compared to other people in this country.

33:32None. No voting rights. None, virtually. And our representative seems to be aged and not speaking out. And so, but even if they were, I mean, he can do this. He can do this. And so, should he do it? Probably not, but he can. And as you pointed out, I mean, where are they sending these troops? It's not to the places where the crime is actually happening. And they're also predominantly doing immigration arrests, just pulling undocumented immigrants from mopeds and delivering iced coffees from Bluestone Lane. So I just think the reality versus the rhetoric is so stark here. I want D.C. to be safe.

34:14I think crime is absolutely a problem in the city. But I also think that the people who need protecting are not being protected. Well, that's because it's also racial, right? It's like scary city run by black people. I think that's a lot of it. The visuals is what they're going for in some fashion and then doing nothing. They're at Union Station. I mean, maybe at one o 'clock in the morning, the station's a little sketchy, but otherwise, not at all. It's a very strange thing. I don't know where it's going to go, and we'll see if he extends it to other cities like New York if Mondani wins. Have you also noticed, Kara, like, I mean, the thing that I think we should keep an eye on with this is the videos of the masked agents, the ones who, there was the one that went viral over the weekend where one of them said, you know, liberals have already ruined America.

35:05the degree to which Trump has successfully turned immigration agents, now the Secret Service, you know, HSI, which typically are tasked with some of the most sensitive, you know, federal law enforcement investigations into his personal police force that are ideologically aligned with him, I think is one of the most important developments in the last several months. And it's gone almost entirely unchecked and it will only... be exacerbated as we go down the road. Yeah, I don't think it's a long trip, Abby. I think these people are already down that road in a lot of ways. But wearing the mask, he's creating his own personal Stasi, and that's what's really disturbing.

35:46And it's going to be hard to put them back in the box, for sure. Okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, how Gavin Newsom has become the ultimate Trump troll.

35:58There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why in 2025, our late night TV shows like Jimmy Kimmel's show still on TV. Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now.

36:46That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

36:56Abby, we're back. California Governor Gavin Newsom can play President Trump's social media game, too. He's quite good at it. Newsom's press office social media feed has been focused on capital letters and AI memes mocking the president's tactics, and it's winning the attention game. The strategy is part of Newsom's response to the Trump-backed redistricting plan in Texas. That's where it began. The California governor has responded by saying he would pursue a special election to redraw California's congressional maps to offset Republican gains. It's a dicey thing to do because other states could also participate.

37:25A post from Newsom's office reads, in all caps, Donald Trump, the lowest polling president in recent history, This is your second to last warning. Stand down now or California will counter strike in parentheses legally to destroy your illegal crooked maps in red states. Meme posts include comparing Steve Miller to Lord Voldemort, responding to a photo of a rainbow over Marine One with happy pride, an image of Newsom on the cover of Time magazine saying long live the king. Meanwhile, Texas Democrats who fled the state to stall redistricting plans have returned. The state legislature wrapped its first special session last week with Governor Greg Abbott quickly calling for a second special session.

38:01Talk about what Newsom's doing here in your thoughts. You know, the right is trying very hard to say he's cringy and this and that. I think he's very funny. It's getting a lot of attention and certainly a lot of views, etc. But what is happening here from your perspective with him? And has he break the code on how to break through in the Trump era? You know, my views on Newsom are that he's trying to get attention and he's getting attention. And I think that you enjoy it. I'm neutral on it. I don't, it's all just trolling fine. My filter on some of this stuff is what's the actual electoral impact?

38:40Because you can rally the base, you can make Democrats, you can tickle their funny bone with this stuff. And that's great. But at the end of the day, Democrats need to start winning elections. So after all of this is done, what I want to know is what are they actually doing to change the electoral reality in the country? Because that's ultimately the only thing that matters. I mean, on the redistricting bit of it, is it a race to a bottom? Absolutely. It's interesting that Arnold Schwarzenegger is like very much opposed to this. Yeah, he had, when he was governor, he passed something that they couldn't do this.

39:18Yeah, and has made it more difficult. And even within that paradigm, Gavin Newsom is still trying to actually, I mean, it's the hard way. You have to take it to a referendum in order to get this to happen. So, I mean, look, if he's able to take it to a referendum and get approval from voters to redistrict, then I guess by all means. But I do think, and I see this a lot, Democrats do get held to a higher sort of almost like moral standard than Republicans do on stuff like this. There's always the question of why aren't you moving to the middle? Why aren't you trying to appeal to moderates? Meanwhile, the fact of the matter is, is that Trumpism and the rise of MAGA has occurred by completely ignoring this, even the mildest concept of moderation.

40:11I mean, Trump and Republicans have gone as farther to the right than they have been. Right. They don't care about the rhinos at all. Yeah. So I do think that it's worthwhile Democrats saying, OK, let's really address the desires of voters here. And if this is what their voters are asking for, I think that politics is the business of, you know, adding and not subtracting. So building support for people, with people, for the things that you want to accomplish. And I think Democrats probably do need to start listening to their voters more. And I'm not sure how many of them are asking for this sort of like mushy middle.

40:52They're asking for people to stand up for something. And what that thing is, I think they're going to have to figure out. But they do need to start standing up for something as opposed to trying to be in this weird, like, neither here nor there place. Another place. Yeah, we're supposed to be real nice and the others can do whatever they want, in other words. So when you look at the Texas Democrats standing up, which they did, they fled the state to stall these plans. It may not work, but they did it. That's sort of a version of leadership. And then what Newsom's doing, how do you compare them?

41:21Like, what is, do Democrats have to be doing things like this that show some level of backbone? Because a lot of complaints you hear from Democrats are everyone's a noodle, like Chuck Schumer or whoever it happens to be. Noodles, noodles, noodles everywhere. And they are kind of like this. Do you think it pays off from a political point of view for Newsom or these Texas Democrats? I think the Texas Democrats, it's an exercise in futility. But there was also a precedent for doing it. There was an attempt to do this very same thing in Texas in the early 2000s. They did the same thing. They left the state.

41:57but ultimately the court sided with Texas Republicans in the redistricting fight. So they knew that this was going to end the way that it is ending. But, you know, I think if they want to make a statement by leaving the state, then fine. I think that's totally fine to do. And I think that there is some value in showing your voters that you care enough to put yourself on the line, even if it's going to end a certain way. Okay. On the Newsom part of it, I mean, same thing, really. I mean, Democrats have to figure out how they fight back. And they may need to fight back by simply fighting fire with fire.

42:39But because I don't think that by Democrats sort of unilaterally disarming, you're going to resolve the problem of gerrymandering in this country. Gerrymandering needs to be resolved, but it's not going to be resolved by one side just kind of laying down and getting rolled over while the other side gerrymanders the place into oblivion. Right. Although some Republican state governors have resisted in New Hampshire and elsewhere. They don't want to be pulled down into this muck, but they probably will be, presumably. Yeah. And we should be clear that some of the most gerrymandered states are not just Republican states.

43:17Places like Illinois are heavily gerrymandered. So it's not to say that gerrymandering is the domain of one party over another, although Republicans do utilize it heavily, especially in Southern states. But, and I would also add that Democrats nationally have been way more willing to say, we would like to take this off the table for everyone, ourselves included, whereas Republicans have not said that. And so there is - Well, he needs it for the midterms. Yeah. And they don't, and they don't, want to not use utilize gerrymandering period so so i i mean in this moment i think it makes sense what gavin newsom is doing if he's in and and i think it helps but you're neutral it's interesting you're like yeah i'm not amused by gavin i think i think that the twitter yeah x whatever i guess I should call it X.

44:12The X shenanigans do not move me at all. Like I find them to be very unimpressive, not important, does not matter to the average person, but it tickles people's fancy so great. Go for it. It's giving him a lot of impressions on social media. Great. Go for it. Does that up his presidential chances from your perspective? Because that's starting now, right? No, that's another discussion for another day. But I will just say that I don't think that your presidential chances are related to your social media clout. Yeah. So he does look good astride an eagle with a chest. He does look good. You will become well known, but that doesn't mean that you are more likely to be elected president.

44:58And so that's the other part of this that I think is why I'm kind of super neutral about it is that I just feel like people often mistake those two things is, does this person go viral on social media versus can they actually bank votes? And those things are not the same. And the folks who are interested in Democrats beating Republicans should pay very close attention to that distinction, because that's also one of the reasons why they didn't see Kamala Harris's loss coming, because they falsely believed that chatter on social media was related to votes, and it's not. It's not. Snakes on a Plane, that's what they're called, which was very popular and then didn't do very well.

45:40It's a movie because it was a bad movie. But it's still iconic, and it is still iconic. It still has to be a good movie. That's what I say. All right, Abby, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the Trump administration's plan to rank companies.

45:57The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in America, and Google is helping Americans innovate in ways both big and small. From improving emergency response times to protecting against cyber attacks, local, state, and federal governments are innovating with Google AI. This is a new era of American innovation. Find out more at g.co slash American Innovation.

46:23Abby, we're back with one more story. The Trump administration has reportedly created a scoring system to rank 553 companies and trade associations based on support and promotion of Trump's big, beautiful bill. Factors in the rating include social media posts, press releases, ads and attendance in White House events. Very similar to what they're doing to people who are immigrants, looking at their social media, looking at them and law firms and universities, etc. Companies that have the honor of being labeled highly include Uber, DoorDash, United and AT &T. And one company may be looking to work its way up the rankings.

46:56Costco announced it won't dispense Mifeprestone, the abortion medication at its pharmacies. The company said the decision was made due to lack of demand. Groups from both the left and right have been placing political pressure on Costco. Should we expect even more corporate sucking up a responseless ranking? Why not? The law firms have and others have. Other administrations obviously have corporate favorites and they play it more quietly. How do you look at this ranking? It's sort of the list. You're on our list kind of thing, which Trump has done any number of ways with other groups of people.

47:28Yeah, I mean, it's not surprising at all. I mean, I know many people who work on K Street and they've been operating in this environment since the very beginning with Trump, where there is a clear there has always been a clear sense that you have to prove your loyalty to Trump by things that you say publicly, things that you say privately, your willingness to put money behind the things that you do. That's how they've been operating from the beginning. So now we just know that there's like a spreadsheet that they're using to keep track. Right, yeah, yeah. But the truth of the matter is, is that the way I look at this is that corporations, especially multinational ones, which is what we're talking about here in most cases, they operate all over the world.

48:13They operate in free countries and they operate in unfree countries. They operate with strongmen and they operate with democratically elected leaders. And so they have been doing this stance in other parts of the world for a very long time. They are not new to this. So they know how to operate in Trump's America. Their willingness to very quickly adjust to a White House that A, wants loyalty, B, wants control. I mean, Trump doesn't just want them to say nice things. He also wants to own shares of private corporations. He wants to tell them how to operate their boards. He wants to hire their economists.

48:51He wants to, all of it. He wants his hand in all of it. But they know how to deal with that. And I think if people thought that corporate America was going to be like the place where there was going to be resistance to Trump, you are not paying attention. Yeah, no, it's the last place, right? It's particularly unctuous and repulsive, but, you know. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do what they need to do in order to sail through this era of American history. Yeah, like Tim Cook giving that statue. Everyone was so upset. Totally. I was like, are you kidding? Totally.

49:27And they are going to do it. If you think that there is not a thing that they're willing to do, you are wrong. Yeah, that's true. Totally wrong. They will do it. All of it. They will say, yes, Mr. Trump, you can own shares of our company. Yes, Mr. Trump, you can select members of our board. Yes, Mr. Trump, we will stop utilizing hiring practices that we don't like. All of it. They will do all of it. And they will do it because they know that it's for a time, maybe four years. Maybe something else will come after that. But they just have to weather this storm and maximize the shareholder value.

50:04And they will do that. I think you're 100 % right. Certain groups will resist, certain companies will, but Costco is quite a liberal company and resisted DEI, pushing on DEI. They may be telling the truth about lack of demand, or they just are like, oh, this is just causing us so much of a headache, we'll just do it. I wonder if they're afraid also of lawsuits, because I think there's a little bit of it with the mifeprestone stuff. I do think that there is a sort of almost like it's different from the DEI thing. There's like a threat of, you know, lawsuits about the safety, even though the mifeprestone is a safe drug.

50:40There are these organizations that have been threatening on safety grounds to go after companies that provide it to patients. And so there are layers to this with the medical stuff that I think are different. Yeah, you can be in those rooms like, oh, let's just get this off our plate. Let's give him a gold statue. It's fine, whatever. These are small little things to them. They aren't ultimately because it creates us. It feels very Putin-esque, right? It feels, you know, he doesn't have to like kill them to get them to do these things the way Putin does, of course, with his enemies. But it's a version of that.

51:16And don't be surprised. For companies, I'm not. Some people I'm more surprised of by others. But last week I was talking to Rachel about university. It's not like they were an ad for tolerance and, you know, wokeism. Any of those university presidents ever. Like if you've ever met one. Including corporate owners. Corporate owners of media and things like that. You've seen it all over the place. All right, Abby. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

52:12Transcription by CastingWords PG-13 may be inappropriate for children under 13. Only in theaters October 10th. Get tickets now.

52:23Okay, Abby, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like to go first, or I can very quickly? You can go first. I think my win is Steve Wozniak. He's the co-founder of Apple Computer with Steve Jobs. He made an appearance in a thread about his lawsuit against YouTube over Internet scammers using his likeness, which happens, by the way, to you, Abby, and to me and everyone else all across the Internet. He said, I gave all my Apple wealth away because wealth and power are not what I live for. I have a lot of fun and happiness. I funded a lot of important museums and arts groups in San Jose, the city of my birth, and they named a street after me for being good.

52:58He liked that. I remember him telling me about it. He has about$10 million, I think, of all the money he's made. And he's always been like this. And I just like a reminder of someone like this in this sort of get while the getting's good kind of thing. He is a very happy, jolly person. And I find it really nice that he, you know, there are other kinds of billionaires. They're not all the same or very wealthy people. And he certainly has, his impact has been massive on us. Steve Jobs gets all the attention, but Steve Wozniak was also critical to Apple, which we all use today. And so I really like that.

53:35But my fail is something I talked about with Rachel last week was the name Versant, which is the new company about to come out. And we were joking. It sounds like, you know, a medication that would be advertised on late night cable to resolve your rash. And results may vary. But they're now having to change MSNBC, which when it was started, it was Microsoft NBC. I was there when it was started, when they had that deal a long time ago. Now it's changed to MSNOW. which is short for My Source News Opinion World. What? Semaphore's Josh Billinson said, MSNOW sounds like a short-lived Windows operating system for the early 2000s that needlessly redesigned too much and failed to be adopted by a mass critical.

54:20This is bad, Karen. I know, MSNOW. Sorry to say, but it's... You can say. It doesn't roll off the tongue. It does not roll off the tongue. I don't know what you... Do you have a name you'd call it? I don't know. That's the thing. It's like how to rename a thing in this day and age. It's so hard. I mean, I empathize because there are no good choices here. No. To be fair. But MS Now is not.

54:49It's true. They made me download MS Now, and I hate it. It's like ChatGBC5. Those people are all upset they don't have ChatGBT4. But whatever. It's just like, oh, come on. It'll matter how they do, ultimately. not the name because, you know, HBO Now, HBO Then, HBO This, Max, this and that happens all the time. But it's a particularly bad name. Sorry. Sorry, Rebecca Cutler. Yeah, I know. We love Rebecca. It's not her fault. I thought it was nice to hear Rachel being so optimistic about it. Yeah. And I think she's right. I think this is nothing but opportunity going forward. Well, it's coming for you, Abby.

55:31That's what they're doing for us. Yeah, exactly, right? But who cares what it's called? I mean, at the end of the day, that's not what matters. Yeah, you get to keep CNN. There's no name conflict over there. And it should keep CNN. It's a global worldwide network. No, no. I don't think CNN is going anywhere. I mean, I don't know, but I don't think CNN is going anywhere in terms of your name. Well, you're about to go on that journey, too. And it's all about being an entrepreneur. It's going to be a fun little trip that we'll be on. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see. All right, your wins and fails? All right, my turn.

56:00Okay, let me start with my fail, because I want to end on a high note. But my fail is the president of the United States going on this bizarre anti-mail-in voting screed over the weekend about how he's going to, he wants to outlaw mail-in voting. Maybe this is because Putin brought this up with him on Friday as a way to try to flatter him. But he said all kinds of false things, including some things that led me to question whether anyone had shown him the actual Constitution. because he does claim that the states are merely an agent for the federal government in counting and tabulating the votes, which is, needless to say, not what the Constitution says.

56:53I cannot wait to hear how states' rights conservatives defend this because not only does it make no sense at all, but his opposition to mail-in voting just defies reality. If Democrats were so good at rigging votes, do you think that he would have won in 2024? No. Truly? I mean, no. Right? So Democrats have done a really crappy job of rigging elections with mail-in votes. I think he's trying to deal with 2026, either the census or the voting, right? Yes. And he says he wants to do it before, right, before the midterms. I say this as a little, somewhat lightheartedly, but it's also super important and terrible at the same time.

57:40I do think that this is just a bald-faced lie that ought to be immediately slapped down. And voting machines, same thing. He wants to get voting machines. I think he wants to use rocks. Everyone gets a rock. He wants, he said something about watermarked paper. Yeah. Okay. I don't, I can't even begin to unpack that one. It creates distrust in voting. That's my fail. Okay, good fail. He wants more paper, which I don't know what to tell you. My win is I have a four-year-old now, Kara, and I successfully executed a four-year-old birthday party this weekend. And I will tell you that this one was hard.

58:25It was harder than the ones that came before because she had so many freaking opinions about this party and about the gifts that she was expecting. And about, you know, I mean, I was like tracking down the RSVPs like it was my party. Like, is her best friend coming? You know, like, oh, my God, what if there are not these people that she really loves? And I just, I'm glad to be through it. But that's my win. And first of all, I've kept a human alive for four years. Yeah. I successfully planned a birthday party for said human. Yeah. I still have my hearing because the kids screamed like banshees for at least 45 minutes at the start of this party.

59:13Yeah. Just nonstop running around and screaming. Yeah. And I'm here to live to tell the tale. Oh, Abby. You have no idea what's coming. I have four kids in Vermont right now, and let me just tell you, you're going to love seven, and ten, and thirteen. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm worried because the way four went, I was like, wait a second. You better get some endurance going here, Abby. You're not supposed to do it. Yeah, she also asked me for a gift that then she told me that she didn't want anymore. Seven. And that I should return. I'm going to give you some advice. Seven, ten, thirteen, sixteen. Let me just, 20, 20.

59:54I didn't have the right yogurt this morning. Seriously, for his macros, don't even talk to me. I had to buy two chickens. The macros, not the macros. Don't even, I'm not even going to let you know about that yet. You've got a protein monster in your house. Oh, my God. Don't even talk to me. Everyone has a different situation. Anyway, congratulations on that. And get ready. That's all I have to say. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere this week, I talked to philosopher and author Jason Stanley about fascism in the Trump era for just a light interview.

1:00:35Let's listen to a clip. It's a kind of paint by numbers fascist dictatorship that is emerging. It's something that you would read a book and it says, this is what they do and that's what they're doing. Sometimes I feel like they're reading my books. You know, it's not hidden. It's not a sophisticated version of authoritarianism. Not even as sophisticated as Putin. Right. But does it have to be? It doesn't appear so. It appears that the United States is exceptionally vulnerable to fascism. Just what you were saying, Abby. He's really an interesting fellow. He's the one that moved to Canada, which I chastised him for.

1:01:17The one thing I would say is that even though I think it's super important to understand the history of all of this, I think people need to be very focused on the here and now in terms of tactically what is being done to, if you disagree with what Trump is doing, to address it. And I think people forget about that as they are sort of like, well, this is like what happened, you know, X number of years ago or over there. And the question is, how do you convince your neighbors to vote for something different the next time around? Right. Although he did point out there are primers of how to resist its civil rights movement, speaking of which you just wrote a book about this.

1:01:54In the civil rights movement, the images that work there, especially the brutality, moved over a group of people, mostly white, that suddenly became empathetic and things changed, right? and more and more protests happen. And Jackson was part of that, right? Calling attention to it, as you noted. So we'll see. He's an interesting guy. Okay, that's the show. Abby, thank you for joining me. I really appreciate it. And people can watch you on Newsnight every weeknight on CNN. And your book, A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power comes out in October. And again, we're going to have you on to talk about that.

1:02:33I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Cara. I really appreciate it. We did it. We did it. Anyway, everybody, thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is growing by leaps and bounds. We'll be back because now podcasting is video. Abby, I don't know if you know that, but FYI. We'll be back on Friday and I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Jim McEl edited the video. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

1:03:05Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Again, thank you, Abby. And say hi to your Scott. I will.