The Business of Heated Rivalry

12:20Kara Swisher:For people who don't know, it's very low for television shows. I mean, the salary. It's low for a sitcom.

12:26Brendan Brady:It's deeply low for a one-hour drama.

12:28Kara Swisher:It's deeply low for most. Those are the salaries of certain people, depending. So, you know, obviously these were not well-known people, but still, it's still an expensive thing. I think most U.S. ones, I feel like$10 million is the lowest they make, right?

12:43Brendan Brady:It depends. It's like between$4 to$10 million an episode US is typical, depending on what your level is. But yeah, I mean, costs have really skyrocketed over the last decade.

12:55Kara Swisher:Is it less expensive to make this in Canada from a production perspective?

12:59Brendan Brady:No, we have an efficient model. And I mean, yes, it is because we don't have the same level of money that is being thrown around. So we, by necessity, have to spend less. but we also like did something here where we shot all six episodes in 36 days jacob directed all six of them we block shot them like one giant movie we talk about this when studios especially us studios come and say how do you guys do this and we go it's crazy you have all of your episodes written before you go into prep and that's typically when we lose people and they don't

13:34Kara Swisher:understand right because they write it through yeah exactly although that's changing in the u.s It has to.

13:40Brendan Brady:It's crazy to do it the other way. Especially when you're not doing 22 episodes anymore. Like back in the old model, when you're doing this volume of episodes where it's not possible to have them all written.

13:48Kara Swisher:Well, you have writers on staff. Well, you have to just be writing all the time.

13:51Brendan Brady:But if you're doing, if the new model is eight to 10 episodes, there's almost no reason why this can't be accomplished before you start shooting. So you start shooting. Go ahead. Yeah, we start shooting and then we do 10 hour shoot days primarily. Like I'm not going to say it's not every day, but we try to keep our hours low. And there's a couple of reasons for this. A, as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours with crews, you end up paying for an additional day by virtue of the overtime. But we also just feel that like, you know, my wife is an assistant costume designer. She was the assistant costume designer on this show.

14:24Brendan Brady:She's five months pregnant. The departments that, thank you, the departments that get hooped are hair, makeup, wardrobe with these pre-calls a lot of the time. Who are those departments run by? Primarily women. And so we also just feel that like they're in our business, we need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting 15, 16 hour days, which is where the costs balloon.

14:49Kara Swisher:Right, right. What are you, a lesbian? What's happening here? Anyway, so Jacob, talk about your production style. Besides being, you know, truncated, like making it tight, keep it tight kind of thing. You call it anti-fascist. Explain what you mean by that.

15:04Brendan Brady:Well, I mean, I guess what I mean about that is there's a desire often for perfection that is, I think, not only unachievable, but also insane and cruel to be even attempting. There's no reason to do, if you're doing 25 takes of a scene because you don't like the performance of the actor, I'm an actor, I've been doing this since I was four years old. The problem is the scene, it's not the actor. You haven't written it properly. If you're not accomplishing what you need to accomplish, there's a fundamental issue. And by torturing people into repeating and repeating and repeating, I don't know what you're gaining.

15:41Brendan Brady:And so that's kind of...

15:42Kara Swisher:I just did a project. It was all day. I was like, why? It's insane. I kept saying, why? It's insane. Why is it all day?

15:47Brendan Brady:To do nine different sizes on a close-up is insane. All of this stuff is crazy. I do believe fundamentally that film and TV is an ensemble process. It is. Otherwise, go write a book. You know, go paint a picture. There's lots of ways to be in total control. So, you know, anti-fascist might be a big statement, but it is kind of, it's a rejection of an idea that everything has to come from one person and like what, you know, the brilliant man idea. It's very top down.

16:12Kara Swisher:So when you talk about owning this intellectual property, what does that mean now for you all? Because I own all my intellectual property, just so you know, and I think it's important. Explain why it is for you, especially in this space, because that's something that's been an anathema to the industry.

16:26Brendan Brady:Well, I'll tell you what it means is like Jacob and I, you know, worked on a show called Letter, Kenny and Shorzy and the producers of that show made it in Canada as well. And they had a robust merchandise business. And when we were in post-production, we decided because we have, we, you know, retained all the intellectual property behind the series that we wanted to take advantage of that and make a line of merchandise, which we're doing, which is now incredibly like it's, it's become this amazing part of our business that we're super excited about. But it also means that ultimately, like when we made the decision to reinvest our fees, it was because we knew that if this goes really well, we're going to benefit for the next 25 years off of this.

17:15Brendan Brady:And that is the difference. And I think like what, you know, people always ask about, or I guess you look at the Canadian system versus the American system. The Canadian system, you as the producers, if you want to take advantage of being a really truly Canadian show, part of the offering is the broadcasters can't own the IP, the producers get to. And some people will look at that, but the flip side in the US is you're making way more money up front. I don't think that either is right or the other is wrong. I just think that our system is something to protect. For a hundred years, this business was run on the idea that creators and the people who made it got to own and benefit from what they did for their entire lives.

18:04Brendan Brady:And I think that that's something worth fighting for.

18:07Kara Swisher:I think so completely. At some point, I wasn't going to make something or someone. And I said, you just have to give me IP. And they said, why do you have to have it? I said, it's none of your business because I want it.

18:17Brendan Brady:Yeah, exactly. Because it's mine.

18:18Kara Swisher:It's not yours. It's like the old musician, right?

18:20Brendan Brady:It was like own your own publishing, right? Because why would you let somebody else administer your work and take all the profit from it? That's correct. And like we're going to, we have opportunities and we will work in this system that doesn't have that and it'll be fine as well. But I just think that like when we talk about, you know, there's so many reasons why budgets have exploded. You know, the economy, like the economy of scale on TV has just completely fallen out because we don't make enough episodes. We don't contain them into certain locations. But also, it doesn't matter if you have a massive hit or kind of a middling hit.

18:56Brendan Brady:You seem to win no matter what at that level. So I think that there is something to look at as we move forward in these systems of like giving people back end again. Like these old ideas should be new.

19:11Jacob Tierney:After the break, more from Kara Swisher's conversation with the creators of Heated Rivalry, how streaming is changing the way directors are asked to tell their stories, and what Paramount's bid to buy Warner Brothers and HBO might mean for Heated Rivalry.

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21:13Kara Swisher:We're back with executive producers Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady, who are the people behind this huge hit, Heated Rivalry. I want to play something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan last month about how streaming has impacted the creative process, because a lot of it, part of it are people breaking free, right? Like myself many years ago, or I have a lot of people coming to me. I'm like, it's great out here. Like you don't need all that stuff. But let's talk, let's hear what he had to say. And this is a very successful actor and producer.

21:40Brendan Brady:Sorry, you said Matt Damon? Matt Damon. Oh, okay. Yeah.

21:43Kara Swisher:He's talking about the business. I've heard of him. I think I've heard of him.

21:47Jacob Tierney:Like for instance, Netflix, you know, standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have like three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third. And, you know, you kind of they kind of ramp up in the big one with all the explosions and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. And now they're you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get some?

22:11Brendan Brady:But, you know, we want people to stay tuned in and can.

22:14Jacob Tierney:And, you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people are on their phones while they're watching.

22:23Kara Swisher:You know what I mean? So talk about that. He would, by the way, make an excellent gay hockey player. but um too old too old an old gay retired one sure i listen i should be clear i love matt damon i've always loved matt damon so talk about that what's happening now in in the creation do you

22:41Brendan Brady:either of you feel pressure we've yet to really experience that if i'm being perfectly honest crave was not like that um and i will say that part of what the reaction to the show that has been so kind of interesting to me is people saying like this is show you have to pay attention to if you're on your phone you're not going to get it because it's so much about what is not being said about catching looks between people it is dialogue as avoidance and obfuscation and the storyline is actually really simple they're in love they can't admit it so like it's actually not a super complicated plot in that way but so much of it is about the ways in which they're avoiding each other the ways in which they cannot speak that's why the sex is so important because that's when they're being honest and so i think there is definitely a move towards oversimplification that being said you know i i don't i wouldn't want to be too much of a big deal about this like everybody wants an opening that captures you like that's not new like that that's been a note since the dawn of time with stories like right let me in what's the first scene why are you capturing my attention.

23:45Brendan Brady:I don't think that's insane. And I think that this thing, you can see it, I think in a lot of streamers, you know, where you're like, Oh boy, you've just explained a thing to me that I already know. I get, I get that that can be frustrating, but I would also add, I am on my phone when I look up and realize you've said it to me this for the third time. And I'm like, yeah, you're not wrong. I did drift. But like, and I think that there can be room for both, you know, and popcorny fun stuff that like, I kind of don't care. And then every once in a while something comes along and you need to pay attention and that's okay too and then and then it's up to you to choose do you is that too much for you that's okay move it along yeah i actually

24:21Kara Swisher:didn't look at my i have a rule like how many how many text looks is it in a movie how good is it if

24:26Brendan Brady:i don't pick it up at all um we have shows in my household with my boyfriend that we put on to be on our phones with we're aware of this and we think of them as like visual podcasts so um

24:38Kara Swisher:when you have the acquisition of Warner, does that affect it?

24:42Brendan Brady:Not to our knowledge, but we have no idea. Go ahead. Yeah, I think we have no actual information on that. I would say, again, we just want more competition in the marketplace. Because in Canada, what we have, the reason why we ended up on HBO around the world is because Crave and Bell Media have the exclusive rights to all of HBO's catalog in Canada. Yeah, we don't have HBO. And so we don't have HBO. You have Crave and that has HBO on it. And so if we don't have that on Crave, does that affect Crave? What happens to them? That's a big part of why people go there. I mean, now in heated rivalry, obviously.

25:30Brendan Brady:But yeah, like I think that it's a scary time as we see more and more mergers happening. And I, for one, would love to see just more competition because I think it's way better when we have more. But what I would say too is just that because we're an acquisition, you know, HBO is not actually creatively involved in the show. I think they say nice things about it. They're distributors. Which is great. Exactly. So we're not like, I think that that part is not really going to change, at least in the foreseeable future.

26:00Kara Swisher:But now that the show's blown up, they're not suddenly have an opinion about it. No, because they're still getting it for the same price.

26:05Brendan Brady:I think it's worked out great for them. It's worked out really well for them. Like, this is a very successful acquisition. And, I mean, it's clearly working well enough that I don't think they feel the, you know, yeah. I think that this is just like, keep going.

26:17Kara Swisher:But it can go elsewhere, right? Around the world. Correct.

26:20Brendan Brady:So it's been sold territory by territory or chunk of territory by territory in general picked up by HBO outlets. Sky in the UK and Ireland and in New Zealand. A couple of other exceptions to that rule. But basically what they do is they buy it and then they have an option on the second season and potentially third season. So they get – it's like a kind of a right of first refusal. So with an increase, they get it. So it's not really even to be renegotiated. It's just kind of like you either want this or you don't. There's no input into the content. Right, right.

26:49Kara Swisher:Right. I have a couple more quick questions. One is about, obviously, everyone here in the entertainment industry in LA seems to be in despair in many ways in terms of what's happening, including with competition, with AI and stuff. Is there a big fear from you all about AI? Because some of the big hits this year have been the most non-AI type of content, like Sinners, Weapons, yours.

27:13Brendan Brady:And will continue to be. Listen, there is going to be a place for AI in how we work in this business. I actually think that there are a lot of opportunities, but I think it is in that tool for creators, not as the creative engine behind costuming. I think like even scheduling and budgeting and prepping, like those kinds of things where you take an immense amount of time trying to just input data. So much of our jobs are data driven, like just trying to get information. And I do think exactly. I think that those are the opportunities right away that we will see and where I would love for people to focus their attention because we were experiencing this.

27:55Brendan Brady:And I'm sure, Cara, you can you have had this with your team. Those moments of friction when you're trying to explain something to someone and they don't get it, that is hard to replicate. That is hard to do with AI in a way that actually gets you to a place where you're like, okay, cool. We have now communicated together. I think we underestimate the importance of friction in the creative experience.

28:21Kara Swisher:Yep, I would agree. That's exactly how I say it. I talk about it. But the words tech people use are always seamless, frictionless, convenient. They're always using those words. I'm like, no, friction is critical for you being here. What about you, Jacob? Do you think about it all?

28:39Brendan Brady:It confuses me. No is the answer. I don't think – again, the way that Brendan speaks about it is that makes sense to me. I can imagine it helping me with some stuff, but it's not going to write for me. I don't want that either. I love what I do. I don't want to, I don't want someone, I don't need that kind of help is the way I would say.

29:00Kara Swisher:So before we go, what would you want to do if you could do anything? Like you guys are now the world is your oyster kind of thing. Like you can do, obviously you're going to do another season of this, maybe two, three, whatever. What would you want to make?

29:15Brendan Brady:You know, we are being, I'm certainly being offered a lot of things. And they are one of which in particular is a dream come true. So, yeah, I'm excited to be able to eventually talk about it, but I can't at this point. But right now. Yeah. And we also, we have a whole productions company that we're running with a lot in development. So it's about getting these projects. The projects that, you know, from a producer standpoint, what we really want to get made, we have a number of shows. The one that is about to go out is called The King is Dead. And I'm going to plug it right here because it's from an amazing, amazing Indigenous writer out of Canada named Tim Fontaine.

29:57Brendan Brady:Crave is already signed on for development. We're looking for that other partner because it's basically a it's a action adventure comedy set in the 1700s. I know. Bear with us. No, no. Hello. Outlander. Yeah, 100%. But it's a comedy about a group of indigenous folks tired of all these white people coming to North America. They take a boat, traverse back to England in an attempt to kill King George III. So it's a revisionist history. It's like Monty Python energy. It's very funny. And we're very excited about that show. Yeah. So that's in development with Crave right now. And we're very excited about that one.

30:41Kara Swisher:All right. Well, everybody loves you. The boys are getting a lot of attention, which they must be having a ball, it looks like. But you guys deserve equal amounts of attention.

30:49Brendan Brady:Yeah, we really appreciate it. Thank you, Kara.

30:51Kara Swisher:Thank you, Jacob. Thank you. And thank you, Brendan.

30:58Jacob Tierney:That original episode of Tivit from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin, and engineered by Brandon McFarland. Nishat Khurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. And a very, very special thanks this week to the whole team at Pivot for working with us on this. This episode of Planet Money was produced by James Sneed, edited by Jess Jang, and fact-checked by Lara Neiman. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer. I'm Kenny Malone. This is NPR. And meet us at the cottage.

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