1048: Pete Buttigieg Thinks Democrats Can't Go Back

26:29And that's on the economic side. and then on the just you know and you've written this it's just it's about changing like what it means to be human and what it means to interact with one another and I really you know you have kids I have kids like I really worry about you know setting a kid up with a chat bot and that becomes the the important relationship and friendship in their lives um have I know you've been looking into this have you seen or come across any interesting ideas that you feel like Like, okay, this might not solve our problems, but this could take us in the right direction on AI.

27:03Well, I think there are some important ideas that are being developed around how to make sure that the American people get more of a share of the enormous wealth that's being created with AI. Because in addition to all of the problems that you just listed, which I think are massive, there's also the fact that we already have a level of concentration of power and wealth in this country that, as a general rule, is hard for a democracy to survive. And it's about to, or at least it could get much, much more concentrated because so much wealth and value accumulates to the handful of people who own these AI models and the associated physical plant of the chips and the processing, the data centers.

27:43So I think for that reason, as well as the fact that a lot of people are going to experience economic disruption, finding a way to get people dealt in, ideally on some share of the value being created. I think UBI, universal basic income, that was kind of the 1.0 answer to this. It was very fashionable about 10 years ago. I think we've learned a lot about why it wasn't quite delivering the values as advertised. But I do think as we think about the next response to that, the core of it's important, which is we need to make people whole. We need to get them kind of dealt in on the value being created, which is only fair since these things trained on data that all of us put out there.

28:23And the fact that the American taxpayer literally funded the invention of the internet. I mean, I think there's a way to do this where business still gets to be business, but Americans get a piece of the pie. And we've got to pay attention to that because I was there as a kid when they came along to my part of the country in what is now the so-called Rust Belt and said, guess what? All this technology is coming. All this trade is coming. Don't worry about your slice because the pie is going to get so much bigger that everyone will be better off. And guess what? The pie got bigger, but not everyone was better off.

28:55This is going to be faster and more intense than that. We can get it right this time. But even if we fix the income issues, there's a profound set of issues around belonging that I think we need to pay more attention to. This is where quote unquote retraining, which I think is very popular, definitely in the Democratic Party around the time I was coming to age, misses something fundamentally important, which is that what you do for a living is not just how you make your money. It's how you fit. It's who you are. Now that I have kids, there are three, they're about to be four. I see how they look at the world and they totally understand somebody's existence as a grownup based on whether they're a teacher or a firefighter or a worker, whatever it is they do.

29:36Add to that the fact that as fundamentally important as your job, your trade is for blue-collar workers who've been displaced, especially by trade and automation, many of the white-collar workers who are about to be displaced, some of them are even more intensely wrapped up in their job as a sense of who they are. Think about how important it is to doctors that they're doctors, right? And frankly, doctors, architects, engineers, lawyers, programmers are among those whose whole industries may be disrupted profoundly, not in 30 years, but in like three to five. Yeah, no, it's it's it's concerning.

30:17One of the debates from 2024 that I'm still having with myself is we know the top concern of most voters for the last few decades, especially now, has either been jobs or cost of living economic issues. And that's obviously especially true today. People want to know who's going to fight to make their lives better. So as Democrats, let's talk about that. But also, as we talked about, Donald Trump's secret police force is rounding people up without due process. and he wants to send the military to more cities and he's extorting any company or institution or ally that disagrees with him. It is tempting to say we should obviously talk about both, but we're also competing for people's attention with all the other dumb, crazy shit in their algorithmic feeds.

31:03What is the central argument you think Democrats should be making to people in the next few years, knowing that we have this very difficult information environment with which to get our message through? So to me, the touchstone is everyday life. And the argument is it doesn't have to be this way. Everything in your life, from what it's like to deal with a cable company, to whether you can afford to buy a home, to the kinds of dumb political arguments you're having with your uncle, could all be better if we had different and better leadership. And with the technologies we were just talking about, the political developments and so many other things changing, We actually have a shot to get it more right than it's been in a very long time, which we better because right now it's more wrong than it's been in a very long time.

31:49And if we're talking about everyday life, I do think that starts with the economy. That starts with do you have a good steady job? Can you afford with the pay that you get from that job to get the things that you want and need in your life from health care to child care to housing? And I think that we would be well served to be extremely disciplined in talking about that. But we can talk about the other issues, the high-minded, academic almost sounding stuff about freedom and democracy in terms of that everyday life. I mean, part of how I talk about it is the cast of characters who are in charge right now.

32:23So if we had a function in Congress capable of standing up to the president, if he wasn't trying to be a dictator and roll people, then you wouldn't be getting some of the appointees that we now have in charge of our lives. And this is not an academic thing, right? Like your kid and my kid is less safe because we have just learned that RFK is canceling the development of vaccines that could get us ahead of bird flu. Like that's a real thing that will affect our lives. And I don't think it would happen under a left or right administration if we had a healthier democracy. The Secretary of Education, the person in charge of educating our kids, has given speeches talking about A1, which means she doesn't understand that it stands for AI, which means she is unaware of the most important development affecting education since the invention of the pencil.

33:15That's definitely going to affect your school and your kid. And it wouldn't happen if we had a functioning democracy, which is part of what we're trying to build here. So I think we can tie all of these things together. But the touchstone always has to be things that we can explain in terms of everyday life, not just for political reasons, but because philosophically, I believe that's the whole point of being in politics in the first place, is that if we get it right, everyday life gets better. So I don't think this is the biggest problem. But in the bucket of trust issues that people have with the Democratic Party, one thing I worry about is that the Democratic Party has real work to do.

33:52Rebuilding trust with voters after an election where most of the Democratic establishment assured them that Joe Biden was still the strongest candidate to run against Trump until it was almost too late. And look, I mean, I voiced concerns about Biden after the debate. I voiced some concerns before the debate. I still wish I had said more earlier, first because I want to win the election, but also because I do worry about sort of in a low trust environment, further eroding trust with voters, voters who think, well, politicians are all the same and it's all a system and everyone takes care of each other.

34:25Am I wrong to worry about that? No, I think that's on a lot of people's minds. And I think we've got to take seriously the conversations people are having, the questions they have. Look, to me, it was a matter of, yes, it became clear, clearer and clearer, especially after the debate, that it would be better to have a different nominee. And eventually even Joe Biden himself came to understand and admit that and act accordingly. Another thing was also true, which is that when Joe Biden was the nominee for a lot of us, certainly for me, it was very clear that our country needed the outcome of that election to be Joe Biden and not Donald Trump as our next president, because it's one thing to have somebody who is old, who is also a good man, who has led the way on good policies.

35:08And it's another to have somebody who attempted to overthrow the constitutional system of this country. So the choice was clear, but the choice got better when President Biden stepped aside. And there's going to be a lot of coulda, shoulda, woulda about 2024. But you can also tell how different our country and our world is becoming before our eyes. And that much more will it be true by 2026, by 2028 and beyond. You and I have certainly witnessed quite a few intra-party ideological fights over the years. You experienced them during the 2020 primary. What lessons have you taken from those as we head into a few years of primaries that will almost certainly feature spirited ideological debates within the Democratic Party?

35:54The biggest thing for me is the importance of couching whatever you're getting from the internet in actual offline conversations with people about where they want the country to go. I think our whole party, myself included, got very absorbed in largely online fights. I think now, don't get me wrong. I mean, look, digital media are probably more important than a lot of traditional media now in terms of how people get their information. But the structure of them, the way the algorithm works, makes it way too easy to confuse the loudest voices with most voices. And I think we learned a lot of things the hard way in that cycle and in some of the things that have happened since.

36:37I'm a big believer for a lot of reasons, but this is one of them, in spending more time offline, in old-fashioned interaction with people where you watch the faces rise and fall, you talk to them. I learned so much doing five town halls a day in Iowa that you just can't learn from reading reports or polls or that torrent of feedback that comes that just gets mainlined into us through these algorithms. And I think we need to, look, When we have a strong position that is morally important, we're going to take it and we're going to defend it. We're also going to try to do it in a way that meets people where they are instead of sticking a finger in their eye.

37:17And right now, the logic of the feed is that it serves up one of two things. Here's this person I already agree with looking good. Here's this person I already don't like doing something that reminds me why I don't like them. And that's it. those are not the center of gravity of what a healthy politics is about. Yeah. How much attention have you paid to the abundance discourse? A lot. And look, I think that a lot of what they identified really reminds me of some of the biggest frustrations and challenges that we had when I was trying to build things across the country. I'm proud of what we got done.

37:55We got more than 20 ,000 transportation projects done across the country, but we could have done more quicker. And it's really important, especially if we want to meet the challenges of the green energy economy, the need to have more distribution of power, the need to deal with housing, that we not allow a kind of proceduralism to get in our way. Now, look, we're going to do the right thing. I think we always need to be committed to inclusive and thorough processes. But another example of something that we can do differently than just warming up the things we inherited is to think anew in a way that we haven't maybe since the 30s, 40s, and 50s about what it means to have enough process that there's not terrible unintended consequences when we go to build something or do something.

38:46And at the same time, have it be nimble enough that things actually get done. One issue that's increasingly dividing both parties is the war in Gaza. More than half of Senate Democrats just voted to oppose the sale of over half a billion dollars worth of US bombs and guns to Israel. A lot of them are longtime supporters of Israel. Would you have voted to oppose sending those weapons? I think we need to insist that if American taxpayer funding is going to weaponry that is going to Israel, that that is not going to things that shock the conscience. And look, We see images every day that shock the conscience.

39:25So much of this is complicated, but what's not complicated is that if a child is starving because of a choice made by a government, that is unconscionable. And we, I think, especially including voices who care about Israel, who believe in Israel's right to exist, who have stood with Israel in response to the unbelievable cruelty and terrorism of October 7th. I think there's a reason why so many of those voices are speaking up now too, because this is not just something that is on its face and in itself a moral catastrophe. It is also a catastrophe for Israel for the long run. How do you think the next administration should handle our relationship with Israel?

40:13Do you think it should change based on what Netanyahu has done the last several years? Well, certainly Netanyahu can't be the only voice or kind of the only compass for what should happen in the U.S.-Israel relationship. And no matter how strongly, or especially because of how strongly you might believe in Israel's right to exist and defend itself, you don't have to make excuses for the choices that Netanyahu is making, especially because they are often made not only in the name of the Israeli people, but in the name of a US alliance. I think that we as Israel's strongest ally and friend, you put your arm around your friend when there's something like this going on and talk about what we're prepared to do together.

41:03And it certainly cannot be what we see right now from this administration and this president talking about beachfront property in Gaza before he's prepared to talk about human suffering in Gaza. Do you think it's time to recognize a Palestinian state? I think that that's a profound question that arouses a lot of the biggest problems that have happened with Israel's survival, Israel's right to survival in the diplomatic scene. and many of the people who have taken that step historically have done so for different reasons than what we see happening with European countries. I think we need to step back and we need to do whatever it takes to ensure that there is a real two-state solution and that no one, not even the likes of Netanyahu, can veto the international community's commitment to a two-state solution where you have Palestinians and Israelis living with safety, with security, with rights.

42:01I believe that can happen, but we have to actually show some commitment to it. We were talking earlier about our kids. On one hand, I feel like having kids has made me more committed to politics because of the very cliched but true reason that I want to leave them a better country than this. On the other, it's also made me wonder about the time and emotional energy I'm spending on politics in the Trump era that perhaps I could be spending on them. Is that something you think about? How has being a father sort of changed your, in this time period, changed your view about politics or has it? I think it's really good for you to spend, especially if you're as involved in politics as you and I are, I think it's really good for you to spend time with somebody who doesn't think or care about it.

42:46And, you know, there's no more kind of beautiful, innocent version of that than a three or four-year-old. But then it also makes me think more about politics in some ways, because I know that, you know, there are these people now who are the most important people in my life who are going to witness the 22nd century and everything about what that moment will be like, or for that matter, a moment much sooner in the middle of this century when I still hope I'm around, but when they're making their way in life as adults, it's really going to depend on a set of questions and decisions we as a country make here in the 2020s.

43:18I can see them asking me what it was like in the 2020s, the same way I asked my parents what it was like in the 60s. And I want to make sure I have good answers by the time that happens and by the time that moment comes. But also, it's a beautiful thing just to be able to spend time with them and talk about anything but politics. I mean, the latest has been our son asked about the origin story of Spider-Man. And then I told him the origin story is best I remember it from the movie. And then very predictably, the next 10 minutes were spent answering variations of the question, where are there active radio spiders?

43:57Where can I find an active radio spider? He clearly intends to find a radioactive spider or an active radio spider, as he calls it, and get bit by one. And just like talking to him through, like trying to redirect that agenda, very healthy change of scene from the stuff I think about most of the time when I'm doing my bread and butter politics. I was going to say, it has made me like, our job is communicating clearly to people, persuading people. And you just realize when you have little kids that just trying to explain abstract concepts, but you're not allowed to explain the abstract concept with another abstract concept or abstract word, it does help you sort of break things down to the basics to try to communicate with them.

44:38And it makes you think about sort of how we talk in politics, which is often so removed from how most people talk about their lives. Totally. I mean, making it make sense to a kid is one of the best ways to make sure something makes sense in the first place. And a lot of the things we have that don't make sense, like how can you get more votes and not be the winner? They don't make sense to a kid because they're indefensible. We need to pay more attention to those lessons. Which one of you, you or chaston is the parent who buys the kids too many toys or gives them too many treats or or lets them stay up too late i'm gonna i'm gonna stand with chaston and blame the grandparents for the uh the toys and the treats uh which i understand that's always a safe choice uh they definitely have a little more free reign there uh we're trying to hold the line on the toys the stuffies that are proliferating in the bedroom um but uh chaston will say i'm more the softy uh i'd like to think I hold the line pretty well, but all that goes out the window when the grandparents come into play.

45:38Yeah, that is certainly true in our house as well. Pete Buttigieg, thanks as always for joining Pod Save America. This was great and come back again soon. Thanks for having me. Good talking to you.

45:56Pod Save America is brought to you by Quince. Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to. Quince has the good stuff. High quality fabrics, classic fits, and lightweight layers for warm weather, all at prices that make sense. Everything I've ordered from Quince has been nothing but solid. Quince has closet staples you'll want to reach for over and over, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters from just$50, breathable flow knit polos, and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. The best part? Everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands.

46:26By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury pieces without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love Quince. I love Quince. I have some t-shirts, got some shorts from there, got a duffel bag from there. I should probably get more stuff. I could use some more clothes. And Quince is really affordable and it looks great and it's super comfy. So I'm going to go check out the website after this ad. Keep it classic and cool with long-lasting staples from Quince.

46:56Go to quince.com slash crooked for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash crooked to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash crooked. Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond, or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into Cricket for US News. But did you know, we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of prime ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about.

47:35And there's lots of fabulous guests to talk to. Journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. We've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. I don't know if it's John Lovett it's hard to say it's not clear to us who our bosses are some of our listeners call us irreverent but not stupid I object to that I'm deeply stupid it doesn't sound too bad so look come check us out come join us Pod Save the UK every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts

48:17alright John Lovett hi John hi thanks for joining thanks for being thank you I don't know Thanks for having you. Yeah, it was you or Dan.

48:31Thanks for not having Dan. All right. So that was Pete. You don't even know what Pete said yet. You haven't heard it yet. Nope. I've heard tell. I've heard tell. Yeah, I've been trying to summarize. But we do have some, we thought we'd take some listener questions from the Discord. Great. So that you and I can answer a few. We have a set of questions to start all on the redistricting fight. Mm-hmm. FPO World asks, would y 'all like to see the gerrymandering, redistricting fight expand to all blue states? Heffalumpish asks, if every state that can do it actually goes ahead and gerrymanders the shit out of their maps, red or blue, who will come out ahead?

49:05There are a lot more totally red state houses than blue. If we do get in this race to the bottom, do the Democrats still lose? And then Pancake Paladin, who had quite a few questions. Yeah, a lot of questions from Pancake. And seems very... Not a short stack, if you will. Very agitated. Yeah. Thank you for the questions. She says, don't mean to be a downer, but is this an inflection point? Does the Democratic Party have a future if it can't agree this could be existential, meaning the redistricting fight? Cards on the table. I think when we're in an ad hoc gerrymandering race to the bottom outside of usual census calibrations, leadership should be breaking glass in case of emergency.

49:43Where do you want to begin? so let's i want to start with the middle question which is what would happen if uh all the democrats did this everywhere all the republicans did this anywhere who comes out ahead republicans come out ahead yeah that's for two reasons one they just control more legislatures and they have more governorships uh we are behind even if we did this in every blue state they could do this in more places uh they're already planning to do it in a lot of states there's plans now in missouri Ohio, other states. There's another reason. And it has actually nothing to do with who's in power or not.

50:18It's a little bit easier for Republicans to gerrymander than Democrats because Democrats are more concentrated. They're just more parts of the country have districts that are very Republican, but not as Democrat as the Democratic districts are Democrat. The centers of cities and places like that were just really concentrated. So it just makes the job of Democrats to do the kind of gerrymandering Republicans do a little bit more difficult, if not impossible, in certain places. So the question is just, are we going to fight as hard as we can to have as small a disadvantage as we can or not? Yeah, I saw somewhere, a couple of people were doing different calculations on this, that I think if everyone who could decided to gerrymander to the extreme, it would end up being like net four to five seats for Republicans.

51:07And that's if, you know, Democrats and other states that haven't even been spoken about yet. And Republicans too did this, but you're right. It's like, it's just, it's gonna end up, we would probably be down a few seats at the end of this. Yeah, and now the good news there is down a surmountable number of seats, right? Like they can gain four more seats. They already have a very slim majority. We can overcome it in two ways. One way is just by winning in more places. The other is because there is, I think sometimes in these fights, It's we lose sight of some of the like the kind of natural breaks that exist, even if Republicans are the worst people on planet Earth.

51:45And one of the natural breaks is in order to gerrymander really hard, you have to take Republican votes away from Republican members of Congress. Like that is part of what happens in order to make to turn a bunch of Democratic districts into Republican districts. You have to put Republicans in those places. Where do they come from? The Republican districts that already exist. And so you'll start to see it may not be public, it may not be as loud, but you will see kind of pressure that comes in closed doors with just Republicans that puts a little bit of a break on just how far they can go. Yeah.

52:18And I saw some other questions floating around in discord and about, you know, like, why is Gavin Newsom in California only thinking about netting five to neutralize Texas? Why are not why not more? The challenge becomes and Republicans face this challenge, too, which is drawing the actual maps so that you can have districts where somehow you get all Republican districts or all Democratic districts and zero of the other side. And that's just, especially with the bigger the state, that's really hard to do. It is probably impossible to draw the maps in California so that you, California, which has, you know, five million Republicans that voted in the last election.

52:58It's hard to draw them all into one or no district. It's just like a hard thing to do. It's hard. Like, it involves computers doing their best to pump out insane looking shapes that are still continuous. Rest assured that people have thought about this. Of course. Of course. But again, this is the other side of it. You be take to in order to really do it. You're going to take some districts that are currently held by a Democrat and you're going to make them a little harder to keep in a year where the election doesn't go their way. That's, by the way, part of all of this, which is if Republicans gerrymanders too hard, they can accidentally talk themselves out of some seats.

53:34And just one other point about this, too, like it is true that what Republicans are doing are taking this very far. But, like, Republicans have done mid-year redistricting in the past. North Carolina's done it. Texas has done it. There's been a fight like this before. I do think this is a more brazen version of it. But, like, we've fought back and won against these kinds of tactics, too. Yeah, to Pancake Paladin's question, does the Democratic Party have a future if it can't agree this could be existential? I just want to take that question for a few reasons. The Democratic Party, of course, has a future.

54:11It's basically the only vessel we have right now in this country to defeat rising authoritarianism. This is not a third party country. And so you can hate the Democratic Party and we've got some problems with it. But the only solution is to change the Democratic Party for the better. I think it's a bit of a straw man because I don't know who's not worried about this in the Democratic Party. Like I said, I think the first time we talked about this, there was like a few progressives in the California State Assembly who were like, no, this is bad. We can't be like them. And we believe in independent redistricting and all that stuff.

54:43But I would I would say just about every 2028 candidate, most of the House leadership all seems like they are all in for this fight. And then lastly, on the existential thing, I don't think it's quite as existential as we might suspect, because, again, if we go the same route they do, which is what's going to happen. It is a race to the bottom where we probably are down a couple seats. But I think the challenge is you go down this road and suddenly you just stop having competitive House elections, really. And then House general elections. And then what happens is the only game in town is the primaries for House seats.

55:18And primaries favor just more extreme candidates on both sides. And so I think you just get in. I think if the whole House map is suddenly gerrymandered and we're not having competitive House elections anymore, First of all, you're not going to get new politicians. You're not going to get new young leaders who are exciting. You're going to get the same people who are just stuck in their seats and it's not competitive. And that's just that is just bad for politics. It's probably bad for us, too, for Democrats, but it's just bad. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it just another reason it's bad is redistricting fights are messy and divisive and and time occupying.

55:54Like every legislature in the country that's debating a map is not figuring out how they're going to fund the schools or the roads or solving any problem that anyone is dealing with anywhere. And what they're introducing is the possibilities that redistricting is going to happen all the time. No, it's not illegal, but it just is another way in which they're striking at the forbearance that has helped our system work. And to take the pancakes question generously, you're right. Democratic states like Colorado and California have independent redistricting, while Republicans have become more brazen.

56:27We've paid a price for that. But Newsom creating a plan, moving it fast, potentially getting on the ballot this November. Hochul saying the right things very difficult in New York because it has to be a constitutional amendment. But but she's saying the right things like a lot of these organizations that were in favor of independent redistricting suddenly deciding that at least while they may believe that in the long term for now, we have to fight like that tells you that people are moving. The Democratic Party is a collection of people. They're all they are tending to say the right thing. Stephen R.

56:54Martin asks, should Stephen Colbert challenge Senator Lindsey Graham for the Senate seat sure i i think no because south carolina i think is too difficult oh yeah but i loves i want i would like stephen colbert to maybe run for president i don't think it's crazy i don't think he's i mean we're always looking for like someone who's got name id and everyone knows and they're also sort of outside the world of politics but also no politics and is also one of the better humans in public life Stephen Colbert is so I don't know he's run for something South Carolina is just a tough state yeah South Carolina if it was North Carolina say go for it in a second I just would like to see that race I think it'd be fun to watch it would be very fun uh yeah like I'm I want to I'm excited to see what Colbert does next he testified before Congress a bunch of years ago and he talked I believe it might have been about immigration I or I I honestly now I'm not remembering the topic, but what I remember from it is he had a very poignant moment about his faith and his values.

58:02And whenever he leaves behind that kind of artifice of the show and just talks about like what drives him, he's a beautiful speaker and thinker. And so I am just excited to see what he does after this. Me too. Me too. Jacob, I had to really do some digging for this question because it just, it comes in through halfway through the sentence. It just says, Obama's dig on ketchup being only for kids under the age of eight. And I was like, what the fuck is that? And I had no idea. And then you came in this morning and I said, it was from Michelle's podcast. And Obama went on Michelle's podcast and he made a crack about how at a certain age, you should not be having ketchup anymore.

58:42I'll tell you what a sicko I am is I hadn't seen the clip. That's just a view I knew Obama had from previous interviews where he's made honestly less extreme versions of this point. His politics against ketchup have radicalized, but he's talked about ketchup in the past in a very negative way. Totally missed this. Also, Jacob asks, was that an attempt at a sneak attack on the Ketchuper and Chief Trump? No, I don't know. I'm fairly certain that it was not. Hey, listen, man, Jacob, that red string, there's a lot of places to put it these days, places it belongs. Justice Department to the White House, White House to a cushy club-fed prison in Texas, that prison down to Florida.

59:23All of it, totally valid. I do not think Barack Obama is doing 3D chess on ketchup politics. I think he just has an opinion about the sauce. Follow up from Jacob, what is the appropriate age to stop using ketchup? I disagree with our old boss on this one. I think ketchup is fine to use your whole life if you like ketchup. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with ketchup. I don't think you need to yuck other people's yum. I'm not like a huge fan of ketchup. I'll dip a couple fries in it every now and then and I'll put it on a burger. I actually don't like ketchup that much, to be honest. I don't have a problem with other people having it.

59:52I sometimes think this is because ketchup is all the flavors. It's salty. It's sweet. It's sour. It's umami. And it's a little bitter, honestly. But I think the sweetness is why people think it's a kid's thing because mustard is such an adult set of flavors. And ketchup is very sweet. And so it's a kind of way of making your hot dog a little bit like dessert. So I understand where he's coming from. I don't like it that much. I always just paired it with mustard growing up. It was always ketchup and mustard on my burger, ketchup and mustard on my hot dog. I'll tell you what I do that I don't think other people do, which is when I go through McDonald's drive-thru for my secret burgers.

1:00:33Your secret burgers? Yeah, they're just between me, McDonald's, and God. Nobody knows about those burgers. They're secret burgers. When I have a secret burger, I usually get either a double cheeseburger or a McDouble, no ketchup, no mustard. Dry. Just pickles and onions. Dry. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right. It lets the meat speak. I don't know if the meat needs to speak. Does anyone need to hear the meat? The meat is drowning in a cacophony of ketchup and mustard. It speaks softly, but it should be heard. I let the meat speak. Yeah. I'm more likely to let the meat speak when it's like a burger that you cook on a grill at home.

1:01:15McDonald's, I feel like it needs the accoutrements. Okay. And that's what makes this country great. It does. It does. If Barack Obama can hate ketchup, we can love it. Or you cannot. The Cricut Store's big summer sale is here and everything's 20 % off. So if you want a new friend of the pod tea or the redesigned Call Congress merch, it's all on sale for a limited time. Merch is a great way to show you support the pod without having to buy a meme coin or a golden phone with our faces etched on it. And right now it's all on sale. Shop 20 % off everything at Cricut.com slash store.

1:01:51Pod Save America is brought to you by CookUnity. CookUnity was made for adventurous eaters with countless global cuisines from 160 plus award-winning chefs explore an ever-expanding menu of small batch meals, all tailored to your lifestyle, dietary needs, and cravings. Get ready-to-eat meals delivered directly to your door by going to cookunity.com slash crookedfree or enter code crookedfree before checkout for free premium meals for life. As some of you know, I'm a huge Cook Unity fan. I get it every week. I have since long before they ever sponsored this podcast. In fact, just a couple hours ago, I put in my weekly order for Cook Unity.

1:02:33I got the adobo flat iron steak with rainbow fingerling potatoes. There's a coconut lime cod and grilled red peppers, beef tinga tacos, Southwest chicken bowl, Hawaiian style shrimp fried rice. Chicken and cheese empanadas. Guys, there's so many good stuff. It's like over 300 selections every week. And they're always adding new stuff. It's great. It's delicious. It's easy to prepare. With 300 plus weekly menu options. Oh, look, I already said it without even reading it. CookUnity's customizable platform makes it simple to get connected with your cravings. You can filter by chef, protein, cuisine, or dietary need to find meals that satisfy your cravings and stick to your health goals.

1:03:09Cooking quality meals takes time that I don't have, but it doesn't have to be your time. No cleanup or meal planning. Meals are delivered fully cooked. heat in as little as five minutes in the oven or microwave. Get what you're craving. Try the freshest, best tasting meal delivery made by your favorite celebrity chefs. Go to cookunity.com slash crooked free or enter code crooked free before checkout for free premium meals for life. That's free premium meals for life by using code crooked free or going to cookunity.com slash crooked free. Terms and conditions apply. Go to cookunity.com for details.

1:03:43Hey, so listen, Whether you're in the States, across the pond, or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into Crooked for US News. But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no-bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of Prime Ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about. And there's lots of fabulous guests to talk to. journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists.

1:04:17We've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. I don't know if it's Jon Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:04:53Jams asks, can the Democratic Party continue to push working class policies, minimum wage increases, free school lunches, defending Medicaid as its base becomes wealthier? And if not, which one wins out the platform or the voters? uh there's there's an old joke about how uh when bill gates walks into a bar uh the average income becomes billions the problem isn't that the democratic base got wealthier the problem is the democratic base got smaller i know yeah and left behind a bunch of wealthy people it's not the people we have it's the people we lost trade the trade has not been even right and it's not just wealthier it's really the the line is college education now obviously people with college degree tend to be wealthier, but that's not true in all cases by any means.

1:05:38But yeah, no, if we don't have a party, if the base of our party is college educated, we lose. We lose all the time, all different elections, presidential, Senate, House, we're fucked. That's right. And so the idea that we can go on our merry way, just losing non-college educated voters, whether they, I mean, first we lost a lot of white non-college educated voters, then now Latinos, Latinos also some black men so we are we just can't lose non-college voters and so the platform has to win out here and um we have to figure out a way to bring back people who don't have a college degree and who aren't as wealthy 100 there's just no option it's it's there's no winning unless we don't want to win and i think some people don't actually or like it's it's secondary to some other concerns that they have which i understand you're that's again and i'm not saying that's what jams was saying at all.

1:06:29No, and Jams, we're not saying that about you. This is not you, Jams. Jams probably, for all we know, Jams wants the platform to win, not the voters. Yeah. In fact, maybe, I would guess that. That's where I took Jams' point from. Me too, me too. Let's see. Supers Kink? Supers Kink. Supers Kink asks, how can we convince Dems to actually go all out to fix the country? Like, I want Project 2025 on steroids, Dem edition, and Heffalumpish, coming in twice here. Is anyone working on Project 2029 for the Democrats? If so, who are they? Who's choosing them? How can ordinary Democrats have input? And if that's not happening, do you have a good location for a void I can scream into?

1:07:07Oh, there's great voids all over the place to scream. You can find a great place to scream all over this country. It's a big, a lot of it's empty, honestly. So there are a lot of different people thinking about what a Democratic Project 2029 would look like. I feel like there's going to be versions that are like more in the Bernie wing. And then there's going to be the kind of antitrust wing. There's the abundance wing. There's the neolib shill wing. I mean, that's what a primary is for. It's a big fractious debate that helps the party come together around a set of policy goals, right? Yeah. I sort of took that question to mean not just the policies, but I feel like what Project 2025 did well is there was a bunch of policies that they had wanted to implement for a while.

1:07:53And Project 2025 was focused on how do we actually get this stuff done? It's like all the norms, everything that's not bolted down, which is by law, and some stuff that is bolted up by law, we're going to take, right? We're going to get rid of it. All the norms are gone. All the rules are gone. Anything that was tradition that people didn't do, like, you know, the Justice Department used to put it at arm's length and it was independent. And now, you know, fuck it. We could do a lot more if the Justice Department just wasn't independent. I almost feel like it's that. Like, at least that's what I've been thinking, is what are the places where we can amass power?

1:08:25And what places should we amass power? And what places should we go back to sort of the independence of the FCC or the Justice Department, et cetera? I actually asked Pete this question because Pete was like, we have to figure out how to actually deliver for people. And I was like, well, do you think we should go back to independent Justice Department? He said, oh, yes, of course. But I do think that's going to be, I think all of those questions are pretty challenging for Democrats to answer ahead of 2028. And next time we take power, if that should happen. Yeah, if we take it and then someone takes it back before we have a chance to use it.

1:08:58Like Trump created like a unique opportunity for the right-wing think tank types because what they realized is they had basically an empty vessel, right? And they knew that all they'd have to do is do the work because Trump would never do the work. And if they did the work and they had the people they could be put in place by Trump, who really just wants some headlines and has a few core issues that he'd be driving and that Stephen Miller would be driving. But otherwise, they could kind of have the run of the place, which is what's happened. And Project 2025, yeah, they won, I don't think because of Project 2025, they won despite Project 2025, because they put together a set of extreme and deeply unpopular policies.

1:09:39Yeah, no, that's a good point, because their problem is that too many people found out about Project 2025. And what they were lucky about is that not enough in time. That's right. It was extremely unpopular and or didn't believe it. Right. But most people, yeah, people either didn't believe it or didn't hear about it. Right. Or Trump denied it. Right. Pretended it wasn't true. So the challenge for Democrats is whoever we nominate is going to have a bunch of ideological commitments. Right. That not everybody's going to agree with. Right. And there's going to be debates about what we should pursue and what we shouldn't, what policies are right, but unpopular, what policies are popular, but that don't go far enough.

1:10:17There's like a whole range of big questions we're going to have to answer. We're going to do that in front of people, unlike what they did at first with Project 2025. So I don't know if we need to answer Project 2025 with Project 2029 exactly. But what I do think is what Trump should teach us is that Democrats for a long time were a little bit, we lack the imagination for just how quickly politics could change. And I do think like the spirit of that, What I take from the spirit of that question is, are we going to be willing to really push the bounds of democratic politics for what we're willing to propose to people?

1:10:55And I think we should. And I think we need to be open to big and different ideas. And that, to me, makes me actually excited about what a primary could look like. And I think that the ideological spectrum is not the only place to have debates about these policies. I think sort of that's what happened in 2020. It was, well, we lost in 2016 and Democrats were too incremental on their policies. And so now we need to be big and bold and ambitious, which ended up being like spend more money, larger government, whatever it may have been. And I think that we need to think creatively about power. Yeah.

1:11:31You know, and how to make sure that when we propose something, be it very progressive, center left, somewhere in the middle, we get it done. because I think there is a danger in over-promising and telling people that we can do something that we cannot do. And then there is a danger in going too small, right? But like, we got to figure out new ways to sort of use the power that we're given to actually improve people's lives in a way that they remember when they go to the ballot box. Yeah, it's why this question, I think, it's hard for candidates to answer in the abstract right now, even for someone like Pete, because I think part of why it's like, well, obviously the Department of Justice should be independent, But, you know, how much control should we have over the FCC?

1:12:12What kind of executive orders are legal or not? It actually, like the Republicans over decades developed a pretty clear theory, which is we can do whatever the fuck we want as long as the Supreme Court says it's OK. All power flows from the president. Everything else is either up for debate or unconstitutional. And we have a limited time to act. And we have to push back this sort of liberal kind of bureaucracy that is sort of swallowing the economy and has so much power that it never really was given, et cetera, et cetera. Like, I don't know what Democrats think about power. I really don't. Like how we're meant to use it, what rules we believe in.

1:12:45I don't really totally understand what our judicial philosophy is, right? Like, I know we think that abortion should be legal. I know what the ends should be, but I have no idea what the, like, our version of originalism is, right? Our version of unitary executive theory is. Like, I just, I don't know. Yeah. Well, and to answer the question, I don't, there's a bunch of different people working on it, different parts, but there's no like one effort anywhere. And I believe that ordinary Democrats will be able to have input as candidates announced for 2028. And there are debates and they lay out policy platforms.

1:13:15And that's probably going to be the place to have the input. Yeah. Last question comes from Will O. According to the Project 2025 tracker, the administration has nearly implemented 50 % of the plan in just over six months. And while their approval ratings are at all time lows, it just doesn't seem like anything is sticking to get people motivated to stay on top of holding the administration accountable? What's it going to take to get and most importantly, keep people motivated, involved for the long haul? Pick this question because, you know, Dan and I talked about it on Friday's pod. I have been struggling with it, wondering about it.

1:13:48I don't know what you think. Like, it's a really tough question. Yeah. And I also, by the way, like, I think sometimes this question really means like, I'm really nervous and things are so bad, And yet it doesn't feel like the polls, the way politics feels doesn't reflect how bad things actually are. Well, that's been true ever since Donald Trump came down the escalator, right? Just is the nature of our politics right now because of the fractured nature of the media, because of the country's distaste for Democrats and the kind of tarnishing the Democratic brand, which we're crawling back from.

1:14:23And I don't think anybody has a great answer. But that being said, like, what should we be doing right now to make sure we're in a position to win the midterms? Or maybe a better way of saying it, is there anything we should be doing right now that we're not doing to put ourselves in a position to win the midterms? I don't know. But I think we're doing a lot. I think we're making really good arguments. Donald Trump is losing in popularity. Mike Flood is getting the shit kicked out of him at a town hall. Republicans are struggling and divided over Epstein of all things. Like, they're on their heels.

1:14:55Donald Trump is going to the roof of the White House. He's talking about ballrooms, putting nuclear fucking reactors on the moon. Like he's making fun of Sidney Sweeney. Or no, he's loving Sidney Sweeney, but he's making fun of Taylor Swift. Like he's trying everything. Like reality is catching up with them a little bit. And the question is, like, how do we make the most of it? Yeah, I think, and I said this Friday, but there has been some just incredible work being done by organizers and activists on the ground. and we've seen a lot of the No Kings marches and we've seen a lot of this, you know, the resistance is, it's back.

1:15:30It might not be getting as much coverage because the media is broken, but it's back. And I think we need to just grow the movement, right? I think that there is, like, those of us who have been in the salt mines, the content mines since Trump won, it's like, you know, it's one big group of a lot of committed people. Like, next time you go to an organizing event or a rally, bring someone who has never been before. Yeah. You know, I did like a friend who's maybe talking about politics once in a while, maybe turned away because they were like, I can't, I just can't look at the news anymore. It's Donald Trump being crazy every day.

1:16:02It's awful. You know, convince, convince like one person to come with you to a rally or to a town hall or to an organizing event. You know, I think that's, I think growing the movement ahead of the midterms and ultimately 2028 is probably going to be the most important thing we can do. Yeah, I think that's right. All right. Thank you all for your questions. Discord folks, our subscribers who we love. Love every single one of you. Also, be a friend of the pod. Subscribe. Crooked.com slash friends. It's great. You get ad-free episodes and, you know, all kinds of other good stuff. Come join the community.

1:16:33Come join the community. Also, subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, subscribe to our YouTube channel so Elijah can keep his job. Just the Pod Save America YouTube channel. You just subscribe. We're trying to get a million by the end of August or else. Elijah. He's out. He's out. So do it for Elijah. and thanks again to Pete Buttigieg for joining Pod Save America and we always love talking to you can't believe you said that about Sidney Sweeney that's crazy it's wild actually like a unique take a unique take yeah strange didn't expect that coming from him strange yeah and the Epstein theory he has yes that's weird that's so weird yeah that's very weird and what he showed you on his phone about it yeah that's held it up weird stuff wow come back Pete please bye everyone If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free or get access to our subscriber Discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the Pod community at crooked.com slash friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed.

1:17:32Also, please consider leaving us a review to help boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illick Frank, and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer Reed Cherlin is our executive editor Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis Matt DeGroat is our head of production Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant Thanks to our digital team Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles and Ryan Young Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East

1:18:24Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond, or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into Crooked for US News. But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no-bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of prime ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about. And there's lots of fabulous guests to talk to. Journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists.

1:18:58We've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. I don't know if it's John Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. Shop the Sherwin-Williams sale and get 30 % off Duration, Superdeck and Woodscapes products August 14th through the 24th.

1:19:39Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, We've got the colors to bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin-Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales only. Some exclusions apply. See store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders.