1053: Marc Maron on Brainf*cked Trolls and Liberal Scolds

27:47When you come at them, they accuse liberals of being closed-minded in terms of really embracing other people's point of view. And for me, if that other point of view is shut the fuck up, I don't want to hear it. Yeah, right. Well, I just think what happens is once the othering is successful, and I covered in the special that, you know, real rights are denied and real lives are at stake because of, you know, what comics thought was an anti-woke just was just about their language issue. And now they were used under the sort of auspices of anti-woke. You destroy all the policy that helps people who are vulnerable or marginalized or in trouble.

28:26and I can't separate them. I will remain committed to the fact that they did that, that comics helped that. But I think in the bigger picture with, say, crowd work or the kind of hackneyed tropes of tribalized comedy is what ultimately happens, and I said this to Howie and with all the proliferations of podcasts, is that because the production values are shitty, and everybody knows them now. And because crowd work is kind of established as this way of, of lighting a, you know, kind of having an improvisational moment. What happens to all this stuff that is really good and, and truly creative and interesting is that the bar gets lowered to the point where regular people just adapt to the garbage and, and they don't seek out the other stuff.

29:20And the, the sort of outlets that make the other stuff are, are kind of marginalized, Mainstream show business is kind of marginalized. So all this stuff fits into that anti-elitism kind of frame of right-wing thinking. Yeah. And it does, it's about taste too, which is that this stuff performs well. It does well in the world. For good and for ill, all the gatekeepers are gone, right? You can kind of build an audience online. That's good. A lot of amazing people have started online. But we've lost, there was curation. There was, human connection was a limited resource, whether it was through art or through having to go somewhere to meet a friend.

30:07Like you didn't know what happened to people in your life. So you saw them at a party. The party had real meaning because you connected there. And all of this took out, the availability of all this removed the meaning of liking a comic, discovering someone, going to a club and seeing someone's hilarious, telling your friends about it. with researched and respected opinions. Right. So yeah, look, and I did a joke that was turned inside out by one particular kind of libertarian thinker. I don't even want to give him that. He's a comic. But I said it was better when everybody didn't have a voice.

30:42It's a joke. Yeah, it's a joke. But it's the same thing as saying like everyone's got a podcast now. But I just said it like that. So I left myself open to like, that guy, see the liberals or, you know, they're, they're totalitarian. Yeah. Well, it's, it's everybody, you know, they cancel culture, anti-wo, anti-wo comedy. It was about feeling like there's feedback that they didn't want to hear, hear anymore. But I also like being a celebrity got worse too, which is why I think it was able to spread so far. Right. Like, because, you know, you were, if you were famous in the 1950s, you could drive your, You can do coke, get drunk, drive your car through a plate glass window, give$200 to the maitre d' at the hotel, and it was gone.

31:27Now, like, James Corden gets into a fight pulling a suitcase down from the overhead, and it's news, and it follows him forever. There's a way in which attention, celebrity, and feedback have made having the power of a platform less fun. And I think that annoys very powerful people. It's predatory. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, they have to insulate themselves. But I do still think that outside of just the kind of emaciated world of press and this chasing of clickbait, I do think in terms of the ideological bend on it is that it's anti-elitism. It's anti-intellectualism. It's anti-expert. I think it's all part of that.

32:12I think that Hollywood has been framed as elitists. I think that not unlike with the universities and the intellectual thing was always part of fascism. But I think that Hollywood represents elitism to the right. And I don't believe that's true. I mean, you know, movie stars and movie stars. But I really think that's where a lot of that comes from outside of just clickbaity stuff. Yeah. And then there's also just a big audience for it, right? There is, it turns out, an audience for - Yeah, but that doesn't make it right. No, of course not. I think that - What does that tell us about the people listening, that they wanted this?

32:48Well, but most people, like, so what do you got? 75 million vote for Kamala, 77.5 vote for Trump. And there's 150 people who did what? What are they doing? Who are those people? Are they just floating? Are they the ones that's watching? It's a lot of people. Yeah. What are they doing? So so and I think that in terms of how fascism or authoritarianism, like, you know, we've got a president who is a thug. So, you know, his way of doing business is like, oh, you got a got a pretty nice university here. Hate for anything bad to happen to it. You know, like that's a nice state. I hate for anything bad to happen to it.

33:26You know, maybe you kick into the charity. Yeah, it's it's straight up mob shit. But the you know, but like people like Russ Voss vote. Yeah, let's vote. I mean, that's the guy that's doing it. Yeah. You know, so like however you see Trump, you know, he's still a puppet to something that is bigger that he doesn't give a shit about as long as he can be the guy out front. But those guys are the guys that are dismantling the federal government in the name of Christian nationalism. But I think that the way that business – see, what you're saying to me feels like that fascism is good for business. Because if you – like Netflix.

34:10Like Netflix will just co-opt anybody that can take that algorithm. And I think you kind of – I used to do a joke about it. That Netflix can become Reichflix very quickly. And I think the pivotal moment was when they had pushback from the trans community about Chappelle, they realized after several days that that community was not going to affect their bottom line at all. And they cut them loose. And that is how fascism works in business. right well right when their their argument and response would be well we we we believe in being home for everybody so there's chappelle there's ricky gervais there's all these kinds of comics that do the same fucking joke uh and we have a bunch of gay movies and films and queer stuff and like we're a home for everybody and that's our answer sure but ultimately who's getting the big deals which shows stay on the air yeah yeah you know what do they keep repeating it's like the bigger audience.

35:10Yeah, that's them saying like, we got this other stuff and we know there's a few of you, but we're throwing you a bone. So shut up. But the big money's on the ones that you're talking about that titillate in a certain way that is not always right-minded. And look, people can say whatever they want. Like my belief is that eventually this stuff would have found its level that ultimately, in terms of left leaning or specific marginalized cultures, you know, creating grassroots action, you know, by overwhelming Twitter and stuff that when Trump was campaigning for the second time, that was ebbing that it would have found a level where tolerance would have maybe reigned because like I believe that in order for democracy to work.

36:00If these guys are doubling down on intolerance and hate that you, you got nothing to work with. I mean, it used to be like, you know, you'd get a guy who'd be like, yeah, gay marriage. Now the gays, they want to get married. It's ridiculous. Fuck the gays. And then it passes in his state. And over time he's like, I don't know. I work with a guy, you know, they're nice. It evolves in the way that democracy is supposed to work. But I think it should always be said that what these guys are fighting for is not democracy. And they're shameless about it. They can say that, you know, democracy enabled us to vote for that guy, but that was the fucking end of it.

36:36And that's the loophole in democracy is that you can freely elect a fascist. And then who the hell knows what's going to happen, right? But I do feel that they are shamelessly anti-American in their political ideology. And I imagine most of them would own it. The hope, right, too, is like, this is hacky shit right a lot of this like anti-woke comedy is like hacky shit and the way you beat that you can scold people i'm not saying you're doing it but people on social media can try to scold their way uh to the other side of it but the answer is to just be fucking funny and the answer is to have a bit about the ovon that people really like and and and sort of clicks so turn something on in their brain it's subjective makes it silly to them sure it's right but it's not going to make it silly to the guys that are brain fucked in that direction.

37:22It's not going to make it silly to the believers. And the problem with like comedy comedians as news influencers is that now anything any comic says is a representation of their personal ideology. So the ability for them to be objective about humor is gone and they are subjective, which most humor is, to a specific ideological bent. And sure, you can make it as funny as you want. There's plenty of beautifully funny people doing amazing comedy all the time, but they're in the shadow of this momentum of the tribalized comedy of, you know, Rogan. And again, those documentaries, which I highly recommend from Elephant Graveyard, you know, Rogan has positioned himself as the arbiter of what comedy is.

38:11And the way I framed it in my conversation with Howie was like, how long can you kind of claim the victim mantle? It's like, my question is, it's like, you guys, one, woke is dead. What do you got to keep beating these people up for? Some of them are losing their rights. Some of them are being, you know, literally killed. Some of them are being deported. And these are all the big funnies for you guys who claim to be victims of this horrible policy. so then why not stop now well but also part of it is yeah but then also there's this sort of well we're just we're just comedians just telling jokes here and then it's like well hold on a second you can't they're not you well you can't have the president on uh in the run-up to an election and give that person a forum trump uh and not push back uh you can't uh get behind him and then when you don't like the consequences say like well i didn't i don't like any of this immigration stuff but i'm just a comedian i just had him on he was a guest i can't forgive it i can't forgive it not yeah not don't think and it's like in the sense that like well you should have done your fucking homework you know before you you you you you come out and say this is the guy to your army of of of kind of uh minions who who look to you for intellectual fortitude and the proper diet and what is real and what isn't real.

39:37So in a sense, it's like they're going to backpedal and they're going to backpedal in relation to what's kind of like moving through MAGA in general. And I don't know that it matters. I mean, this - I think it does matter. Oh, I think it does matter. No, I mean, I don't know that it matters. Oh, if MAGA buckles and they have to accommodate them? I think we have to be practical. And I can't go back in time and make people not endorse Trump, but people with big platforms realizing that they were - Look, where is a decadent and depraved era in American politics and American society? And part of that is a glibness with very serious things.

40:09You have you have Zelensky in the Oval. He's getting questions about putting on a suit. His country is being murdered by Vladimir Putin. He's getting jokey questions. Donald Trump is showing him his fucking hat collection. This is a depraved and decadent era. And as part of that decadence, there are people being glib about life and death decisions, including endorsing a monster because it's good for the gram. And that happened. How do we help? Now, there's a good side to that, which is there's a shallowness to that support and that embrace, which means, yes, we can say that was stupid. I don't forgive you.

40:41Fine. But we got to get those people to realize we got to make ourselves feel open to them because those people with those platforms are maybe gettable, as are the kind of soft Trump voters that maybe got on board because all their favorite hosts liked him. I'll agree with that. Okay. But I think you're taking out of the picture, they're afraid. They're in, man. Yeah. And they're in over their head. And, you know, there's real consequences when you push back against your authoritarian overlords. And who the hell knows what they are? Because once you get above Russ Vaught, I mean, you've got the tech oligarchs, all right?

41:18So they're the real ones, you know, whoever's, you know, pawned out, you know, you know vance is a stooge for those guys for elon and and thiel and those guys so once you get above project 2025 and you get above trump then you've got these guys who really seek to destroy the fabric of of democratic society okay so if you're on the if you're on the payroll of that shit and you know and you want to you know soften up you know there's a lot at stake you Yeah. So it's not it's not just sort of we got to say the right thing to these people and change their minds because you don't think Rubio is shitting his pants every fucking day.

42:02I mean, you don't think like any judge that rules against him is getting like hundreds and hundreds of death threats. I mean, this is straight up, you know, terrorizing shit. So I know we were heading towards hope somehow, but. And we don't need to. Let's turn around. No, but I think that in terms of voters and whatnot, if they are still capable of empathy, you know, underneath this mania of grievance validation, then in so much to say as if they're still human, that maybe something will speak to them. Well, I think that's where there is genuine hope. Trump has many powers, talents. One of them is he is very good at making what's the worst thing about you the truest thing about you He's very good at that.

42:49He's very about kind of reaching into somebody and saying this thing this this weakness you have I'm gonna make that more true whether it's animus towards immigrants or embracing their ambition over their politics if it's a politician but once one reason I think Trump was able to get get back is because There's a there was a big hole and I I, everybody listening will be annoyed in my saying it, but whatever, again, but the bully pulpit, Joe Biden, he left it open and we didn't understand how big of a price we were paying for not having a vocal, aggressive, relentless advocate for democracy, for just empathy, which is something Joe Biden, I think is very good at, but had lost his ability to communicate well.

43:28And if we can start getting leaders or, and influencers, it matters now, it's the world we live in, to kind of reflect those values more, suddenly a lot of people that were open to Trump might remember some good parts of themselves. Because I think people are complicated. And you're right. In every person, there's a bully. But in every person, there's always an empathetic part of them as well. Donald Trump does a crackdown on immigration. Terrible, terrible crackdown. And what happens for the support for immigration, just itself as a good, rises. No, anti-immigration plummets. Anti-immigration sentiment plummets.

43:59Support of immigration itself, irrespective of the policy, rises to 80 % highest it's been in decades. There's something that you can turn on in people. That's what leadership is and we kind of and we need i think it's possible no i agree with that i mean i of course and like historically it happens yeah you know you can push back uh and you can you know change people's minds if the sadness the weight of it but like what happens to like i've i've become sort of obsessed with this idea of these you know these angry white dudes that you were talking about that were untethered and and many of them the the whole sort of angle of uh you know democrats used to be like they're voting against their self-interest that used to be the big thing yeah yeah how does that happen you know because it feels good to be angry and well you can't tell people what their interests are is one thing i guess but i'm just economic right so but now like now it's like uh it i i don't i don't want to get more grim I'll stick with, yes, maybe people.

45:01Well, you get all these angry dudes, I mean, and then you offer them, I mean, South Park covered it, the second one. Offer them a job in ICE. Yeah. As, you know, non-officer guys with guns for big money. And again, then you get into that philosophide thing where they kill part of themselves to serve this because of their self-interest. And I guess that ties into me with what you're saying about influencers and about that. If you can get them out from under their self-interest, which sometimes is just posturing for a particular cause that determines their brand sort of appeal, but is rooted in almost nothing.

45:47I mean, how do you make - Momentum becomes momentum almost. Well, it just becomes like you're using it as a marker to sort of determine your brand. And everyone is stuck in honoring the context of the social media platform. So arguably, if you really want to do it, there's no free speech because you're trying to get onto this platform and get traction with what you have to say in the bits and pieces that you can do it and make it appealing to enough people to get you some sort of recognition so you can get your grift going or move money into the right direction. And subscribe to our YouTube. But.

46:22That was one of those fake laughs. But also there's a difference between this hyperreality and just sort of like, you know, going swimming. So I just think that it's complicated without a unified message. I think that's true. Let's turn to life. I think we've done enough politics. Is that too much? Am I the bleakest guy you've had on? No, and it's going to edit beautifully. It's going to edit. Darker, but not bleaker? We've had darker people, right? No.

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49:36All right, let's talk about life. Sure. You ever buy that$14 ,000 amp? Yes, a long time ago. You got it. You got the nice amp. Yeah, I don't spend much money on things, but I did buy that. Yeah, it's a tube amp. It's a Macintosh. Some people don't love them. But I've got a good stereo setup with some nice Wilson speakers and the Macintosh amp and the Macintosh preamp and a Riga 6 turntable and a Hama cartridge. And, you know, I kind of – it's waning a little bit. That's the problem with getting obsessed and not being a fully committed nerd to a thing. Fully committed nerds have one thing and they do their life with that.

50:12Mine kind of – You dabble. It dabbles, but when I dabble hard, then when it starts to pass, you're like, I'm going to have to build another structure for these records. Oh, yeah. I get monomaniacal and then move on. Yeah, yeah. And you're left with a bunch of objects. Yeah, sometimes they're great and you can go back to them. Like boots always seem to come back around. You have boots going? Nice. Well, I got, yeah, these ones. I'm trying to figure out if I like them or not. But what I was going to tell you before, sorry, is that, like I said before, about playing to our audience and having enough, you know, skill to kind of take little shots and have that fun moment of like, we are kind of like that.

50:48that entering the political part of this last special, days before I changed the tone of how I was going to do it. Because like I said, with that alpha doggy or whatever thing, that like with the swagger, which is either genuine or just a means for me to confidently, a trick to deliver it. I decided in this one, just go under it. Almost be passive about it. Like, hey, everything's great. You know, everything. And then move from that tone, because I believed in the spirit of what you're doing here, that if I do it like that, you know, people who aren't necessarily like minded will listen. Yeah.

51:31And I did some of these shows. I had a guy come up to me in like Skokie or somewhere, and I did all that stuff. And he came up to me and said, you know, I think I'm probably the only Trump supporter in here. And I said, did I get it right? And he said, yeah, man, he's crazy. What do you even do with that? Well, I think it gets to something important, which is I feel like a lot of liberals and gets to the kind of buzzkill thing. A lot of liberals have kind of had convinced themselves that if only we can reach people with the truth, they just don't have the facts. And once they have the facts, we've got to get on the facts.

52:06We've got to make sure the New York Times headlines are accurate, that they capture things correctly. because if people had the facts, they really knew who Trump was, then they wouldn't do it. But no, a lot of people got behind Trump knowing who he was. And that's a harder, deeper, sadder problem. And I think that is where we're at now. I think the first term was, oh, we just have to reach people to make them understand. Now it's, wait, wait, wait. They did understand. They did this anyway. This is a bigger problem than we realized. You have to, like you said, have a leader that believes in liberal democracy.

52:38Yeah. And can speak to why it's good. Even with creating policy that may undermine businesses, maybe creating policy for the benefit of all, you have to somehow re-engage people with the idea that they have a civic responsibility for those who don't have. And it has to deliver. It has to deliver for people. Because I do think that's right that people have come to believe that it just doesn't matter, that Democrats can't. They under promise. They over promise and they under deliver if they deliver at all. And really, the federal government just doesn't affect me. And that's a wealth problem. It's a wealth problem.

53:21I think it's also a a this is a kind of cultural problem right now, which is. the assumption that how things were is how they will be, that there are certain things you can count on, right? Like you can just, yeah, Trump is crazy, but social security is going to function. And yeah, Trump is crazy, but he's not going to ruin the whole global economy by announcing tariffs for penguins. I think a lot of people learn from the first term that things don't really get that bad. Yeah, but that was before they had 2025 in place. Exactly. Of course, of course you know and they you know all they had was bannon and you know his mystical beliefs you know churning out executive orders but now you have guys that really know all the fucking weak spots of the government who are churning out executive orders and they had four years to prepare total and second-term presidents always know the job better than first-term presidents they rarely get four years to to be outside so that the policy people the wonks can get their plan together.

54:21That's what's so different. Sure. But also, how do you get the young people that identify with liberal democratic or leftist politics to focus on getting involved in being involved in the government? Well, I think this is where it's like, what brings all these disparate groups together? What makes people see themselves as part of one movement? Leadership. And we didn't Democrats didn't have enough trust with non-Democrats to believe the threats, to believe what we were saying about what Trump posed. And Democrats didn't have enough purchase with less engaged lefties to earn their vote and to believe that they could be trusted either to kind of get people excited.

55:05And Kamala did a lot to try to fix the damage that Biden had left. But there wasn't enough time. So, Theo Vaughn, Dax Shepard, you. Is there something about being a recovered addict that makes you good at hosting a podcast and having conversation?

55:29Well, I cited as a foundational thing the sort of idea of the seed of AA thought is that one alcoholic talks to another alcoholic about their life and gets out of themselves. So on that premise, maybe. And I just feel also that if you have some experience in recovery, you're very used to people being very candid about showing their emotions and vulnerabilities and telling their stories of the most horrible things. It's just part of the community and part of how it works. So on that level, maybe. You know, there's a lot of people that are miserable and hate their lives and they're not brave enough to fix it.

56:20And they're also not brave enough to do drugs. You know, it takes a little bit of courage, I think, to ruin your life with drugs. You've joked about that, too, in the past. And like, you know, bravery is just a kind of recklessness that we like. You know, it's recklessness with a good good good with a good direction. I don't know if they see it as bravery. I think they're out of control. And if they survive, they can frame it. you know i i don't my joke was i don't trust anybody who hasn't lost complete control of their life for a few years there's a kind of um uh yeah a willingness to say fuck it right there's a fuck it quality and i think that like sometimes it's a it's compulsion more than a willingness maybe at some point it started as i'm just i'm i'm furious i'm angry i'm sad i'm whatever oh yeah i'm gonna throw this back yeah and change my circumstances but there's a vulnerability to it too i like feel like like in the addicts that the people that i know that have had an addiction once they've gotten out of it yeah well once because the hole is open the hole is open but also i do think that there's a kind of a vulnerability from before too a kind of a softness that made a pain right i think that comes from a vulnerability and that continues after you've beaten it but i think it's part of i think what makes sure you a good host right you you know you you are open right yeah and i'm pretty like you know my my empathy is sort of expanded from doing it and also I'm kind of innately kind of codependent in that you know I assume that anyone I'm talking to has their shit together more than me and I kind of meld with them and I kind of pick up their vibe and there are certain times where I'll ask Brendan McDonald my producer I'm like did I start talking like an old Jew when I was talking to Mel Brooks he's like yeah and did I start talking a little bit like a black guy when I was talking to a black guy happens.

58:04You mirror, you mirror. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But that's me. Yeah. I don't know how they do it. I don't know how they do it either. Yeah. There was something about that, that you kind of like match somebody's energy. Are we doing that? I think so. A little. Yeah. You're, you're, you're a little guarded. You think? A little bit. It's okay. I think I am. Well, I can bring it down. No, you don't have to. It's your show. You got to drive. I don't even know how to be, I don't even know what, what's the, what's the guard? What's, what should I take down? What do you think it is? I think you have purpose.

58:36I think that we're all scared, but you have to sort of keep it together for the operation. Yeah, I think that's true locally and globally. I think I want to make sure, I know you as a performer, and I want to make sure we don't land in the fucking grave. I want to be out of it by the end. but I also want to I want to people I want to yeah so I think that's right I think that if you watch the special that I do you know I do walk a tightrope but it definitely it comes out funny and it took a lot of time to do that I remember you in the Conan days like I remember watching you on Conan and I wouldn't have known you were on drugs and drinking that like when you were in those I wasn't like sloppy you know and a lot of times I didn't do it the day of those shows You know, I don't think, a lot of people think I was on Coke for that HBO half hour at the Fillmore in 95.

59:34I was just sweaty. I don't think I was on Coke. I do know on my first Comedy Central half hour, I had done Coke the night before and I didn't sleep well. But I wasn't getting jacked to work. You weren't, you weren't. No. Even now, like I forget when I'm thinking about, like I don't sort you into the category of, oh, guys that did a lot of drinking and Coke because you strike me as a nerd. You're like a nerdy guy, kind of contained Jewish. Like, I just, I think of you like that. And even when I think of you from the Conan days, I think of you as being like a, like a, not a party guy. I think of you being like a record guy.

1:00:05Yeah. I think I was like, I kind of wrote a line, you know, I grew up in, you know, townie culture in Albuquerque, but I was from Jersey and I was very compelled towards, you know, higher pursuits. I wanted to really be an intellectual. And, but I do have at some point, you know, a rock and roll element. I was never really a nerd. I was more of an awkward person, unfocused. I think nerds are awkward, focused people, and they can find community in that. I was just an uncomfortable guy that knew how to be funny and sort of moved through all different cliques. But it was never that focused. And I kind of took to and still do to a kind of rock and roll sensibility.

1:00:50So it's that combination of that with pretty, I think, I don't like using the word, but neurotic, anxious Jewishness. So it's kind of a hybrid. I think that Randy Newman once told Lorne Michaels many years ago, and Lorne told Jim Biederman, who was producing me on a show for Broadway Video. It was a streaming show that was before streaming, though. But Randy said I was a verbessen, which is a sourpuss. Oh, yeah. And I kind of, I'm okay with that. I was a cranky guy, but I didn't know quite how to make it funny. I don't think I have the, you know, real cranky guys who are naturally funny. It's a rare thing, you know, like Louis Black is good at that.

1:01:32I think, you know, Burr at some times just this sort of put upon, you know, kind of anger that that doesn't cross over into intense anger, which isn't fundamentally entertaining, which is where I would go. I think over time I've become a little more cranky funny. That's interesting. Why is that? And I think part of it is for whatever reason, like you're there's a way in which with like Bill Burr, Louis Black, that you're rooting for them. Even when they're... Populous crank. Yeah, they're populous. I'm a heady guy. Yeah, yeah. I'm more of a poet in terms of how my brain processes things. It never rhymed, though.

1:02:12No, it's all free verse. Occasionally there's a rhyme. I'd take them right out. Yeah, you gotta take them out. Yeah, rhymes are cheap. Rhymes and puns. No, can't do it. Yeah, we do it. That's okay. We do it. Sure. It's cute. There's a way in which now, I don't know, you seem more like comfortable as a performer, as a standup, which is amazing how you've been doing it for such a long time. Was it, like, I know that when I was in politics, I remember when I got a job as a speechwriter, like I have several chips on my shoulder, a couple of them are still there, but I've seen them fall off, like when I've had milestones.

1:02:50And you say you can't get, you know, that outside validation can't really change how you feel. I don't think that's true. I think it absolutely can. Totally. Do you think for you, success has, was it financial success, acclaim? Did those things matter in how you are on stage? Did it make you feel comfortable, safer, freer? What? I think that, and I've said it before, that for a long time, however long it takes, you know, your comics job is to pretend like they're not afraid. You know, and then eventually the fear will leave you. And that's sort of a big day. And I think in terms of success, just the fact that I was able to build an audience of grown-up people mostly, mostly thinky, creative, disgruntled people, I kind of talk about in the special.

1:03:43I worry about alienating them, but there's also some part of me that wants to a little. But I think that once I got an audience and I had a freedom of mind that I knew would be received, that it did help my comedy. And I guess that's success. But ultimately, I have been working a long time at this. And I think along with that fearlessness, especially in this special, it's the only special where beforehand I didn't let my brain undermine me for dumb shit. There's some part of my brain that prepares that way. I've got to find something to make me uncomfortable. And it just didn't happen. And I was more grounded in this special than I ever have been because I had purpose.

1:04:28Like I always kind of do, but I had a different purpose both to my audience, to the way I thought about culture and politics, and also to the risks I wanted to take around personal things. things. Like a long time ago, I really set out to not talk about anything that wasn't from my point of view because I could own that and no one could take it. And anytime that I'd see similar things, I'd have to sort of like go, well, is it that similar? I'll just lose it. You know, I don't, I want it to be mine. So the risks I took in the last two bits around trauma and around grief where it took a long time to work those out.

1:05:09So I just feel like that I have a confidence in how I do what I do that is much more grounded than it's ever been. But yeah, validation is still too important to me. Is it? Yeah. Who do you want it from? I don't know. My parents. It's always about the parents. Yeah. I mean, because like, if you don't have a voice in yourself that you've evolved because of being, you know, emotionally, you know, manipulated one way or the other in a negative way by you know your your early experiences it's hard to have a voice in your head that that says good job and you don't have that even now no i do you know but i i still like i know it but then when other people don't know it as much as i do it's it makes me upset yeah with this one the stuff that like i i felt like it was really the best work that I've done in terms of from like the risks were different the last special was about grief and you know at least 20 to 25 minutes and this one was back to sort of almost a three act structure you know where you know I do the political cultural stuff then I tell them I want to just be entertaining and I do that and then I get into personal stuff but I do feel like the stuff that I thought needed to get out there uh in terms of not the stuff like you said before there's a lot of stuff in this special that goes you know undiscussed that's gnarly shit and and deep shit but you know the stuff that landed I'm okay with because I felt like there was not being said you know in a way that was like no one can deny my skill set so as a comic If I'm going to take on what's going on in comedy in relation to culture and I do it in a funny way, then I've achieved something.

1:07:02Because a lot of comics are scared to talk about it. They're afraid of audiences. And, you know, you just got to really get that ratio into your head. It was, you know, 75 million to 77.5 million. Not every room is full of monsters. And certainly not in L.A. and that there has to be some, you have to have the guts to be a stand-up stand-up and say what you want to say. Again, it's dicey when you sort of take on people in your world, but when it reflects on the world at large in a negative way, I think it's ripe. But to the point, I felt good about it. I articulated it well and going into it, I was 100 % confident in the set.

1:07:52And I feel good about it. And I'm fortunate in that it was received very well, which is not always the case.

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1:10:30I think it's technically your cusp, but I think of you as like a quintessential Gen X. Yeah, I think so. Comic. Last year of Boomers. So it's - Yeah, you're right there. But Gen X energy all the way through. Sure. Right there with the kind of in the sort of. There's probably a little too much Led Zeppelin in me to be fully Gen X. Yeah. But yeah. Grunge it up a little, I suppose. Sure I did. It was later though. Later, yeah. Went through your grief. The groundwork had been laid by acts from the 70s. But why do you, we have had a bunch of baby boomer presidents. I'm not running. No, and first of all, thank you.

1:11:09Yeah, yeah. That's one less thing to fucking worry about. Imagine that. Ugh. That would be annoying. But just you heckling Democrats back at you. What a disaster. I don't know. Gavin's doing that. Yeah. I think he's more suited to it, honestly, than you. He wants it pretty bad. I can't. Look, I know what it's like to think you are speaking your truth and to be completely saturated in talking points that you don't know anymore. I mean, I did Air America for a year every morning. And you start to, you realize like, I didn't think this. I don't remember your show being that talking pointy. No, it's not, but it's the tone.

1:11:49Yeah, yeah. That you're honoring a narrative. But we seem to have skipped over Gen X in terms of presidents. And there's a sort of a gap in terms of even our representation. We went right from a lot of boomer members of Congress. There's obviously a Gen X was in there, but we went right from the boomers to the millennials as well. Why is it that Gen X hasn't really shown up? They've also moved to the right more than millennials have. What was something about your generation that kind of had this sort of - I think it was probably the beginning of that sort of self-centered entitlement and need to define yourself in a unique way that was based on music, fashion, and bits and pieces of esoteric wisdom from old books and whatnot.

1:12:40I think it was probably, the boomers are selfish in a different way because they built the world, and now as they were looking down the tunnel of death, they kind of want to end it. They only buried in their pyramids. Well, I think there's a part of narcissism that it's like, if the world ends at the same time they do, they don't miss anything. And I think Gen X is probably guilty of a kind of the beginning of terminal uniqueness on an individual level and not so hip to real civic community. Maybe. I don't know. I'm really spitballing. I don't really think in terms of generations that much. I do know that the boomers need to get out of the way.

1:13:31There's sort of the Gen X comics. Jon Stewart's in there. You're in there. Bill Maher's in that group, I think. He's a little older. Is he a little older? I think he's kind of solid boomer. You think? Is he only at home? Yeah, he's got to be like, got to be close to 70. Somebody. Let's get a Bill Maher edge check. New producer work. 69. Nice. 69, yeah. Nice. Famously 69. Oh, right. We talked to him about it. I had him on. That's pretty solid boomer shit. But Janine, you know, Jon, sure. you know some of the other Gen Xers you know Patton and then there's a bunch of other you know younger guys the alt comedy scene for whatever it did was mostly Gen Xers and some millennials I guess yeah it was an insulated community that was based a lot in kind of snark and you know snark doesn't age well because it doesn't run that deep yeah and it's well it's there's something about it too that's, that's, um, snark.

1:14:31You have to be on the outside and you have to not want to be on the inside. That's your answer right there. Yeah. I think that's it. There's something about, there's something about Gen X that was like, you know what? We're just going to, we'll be, we'll be back here. Yeah. We'll be back here with our zines. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think that's it. I think it was a mistake. I think you should have guys got it, gotten in the ring with us. I'm the last boomer. Don't, don't blame me. Okay. Okay. You're right. I take that back. I take that back. So you're a catastrophizer. I, I, I was, cause I was thinking about this.

1:14:55Because I went back and I watched parts of this special from Bleak to Dark. And I'm a catastrophizer as well. So I'm on the phone with my fiance. I'm engaged. Second time is what it's going to take. How long have you been engaged? Like six months. Okay. Six months. Planning the wedding. Good. Oh, good. Yeah, we're planning the wedding. It's not like a six-year engagement. The last one, we didn't plan the wedding. And I think that that was a sign. This is a second marriage? Second engagement. Second, okay. There was no first marriage. Okay. Okay. I made a lot of changes when I turned 40. Uh-huh.

1:15:29A lot of changes. Yeah? Like what? I was no longer engaged once I was 40. Yeah. I actually never was single in my 30s. Yeah. I was single when I was 29. I met somebody. And then the next time I was single, I was 40. Uh-huh. So I forgot to be single in my 30s. And yet you did it again. Well, I thought it was going to be like when I was in my 20s. It is not. No. When you're in your 40s. A little more work. Yes. yes you can't you can't get my dunk yeah gone yeah and i didn't have a dunk yeah the game starts to fade and now i'm 40 yeah but you look good i'm okay i'm working on doing pilates do pilates no i do uh i do like kind of a full body flexibility workout and then i run a few days a week you run this morning i did yeah where do you run i do a hike out in glendale sometimes and then other times I just do intervals on the treadmill at Equinox.

1:16:24Okay. I like Equinox. Okay. I'm an elitist. You seem to be aging well. I think comedians age well. Oh, that is not true. Not physically. They become ghouls. But I'm saying that mentally, some of the great, like... You're going to have to give me an example. Well, I think comedians that have tried to stay kind of sharp and curious about the world, I think you're one of them. There's got to be a couple more. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a faulty premise, but you said it confidently. I think that... Well, like, look, I think Seinfeld is somebody that's trying to do new material. And you can like or dislike what Seinfeld does.

1:17:02Oh, yeah, I can. You can. Great. But even the other day, he gave some answer about woke stuff and he got some blowback. And he actually came back and he said, you know what? I was wrong about that. And he actually gave a really good answer. He thought about it. He came back and he said, you know what? what I said was stupid. And actually, if the goalposts move, I should hit the goalposts. That's my job. And I thought that was cool. I think that what happened with Jerry ultimately is that he was really a guy that didn't speak much publicly. And then just because of the advent of podcasting and the needs of the new publicity environment, all of a sudden, Jerry was never shutting up.

1:17:40So everybody saw Jerry for Jerry. And you do with that what you will. Okay. I'll do what I will. I'm glad he apologized. And you feel good about that. Who else? Let's do some more beefs. What do you think about Bill Maher? I can't. I can't do it. You know, I can't. You know, I don't. I always had a problem with his tone. I think I did politically correct years ago. Yeah, I'm sure you did. A couple of times maybe. And I think I did real time maybe once or twice. That's when you were dating Ann Coulter. at the time oh yeah yeah that was a dark time i tried to help her um there's no she's lost cause i couldn't do it there's nothing i could do yeah with all my years of experience in and out of bed that could help her okay so uh no i don't i don't know like i feel with bill that there is this and it happens with some of the other boomers there's this desperate chasing of relevance that, you know, changes someone's mind in terms of how they approach what they do and also kind of makes the whole undertaking feel desperate.

1:18:56And, you know, outside of, you know, his ideas about primarily, I think, wokeness,

1:19:07I don't know, it's just not for me. I know his joke, you know, he's got good joke writers who know how to write for his tone. And I've known a couple of those guys. They were comics. And they're good guys. But I can't see past the desperation and what he's willing to do to stay in the conversation. And what do you think about the death of, like, Late Show's gone, Conan Show's obviously gone. It's coming undone, this place that I know I'm sure for you was this pinnacle of where comics went, what comedy was, from Carson to Letterman to Conan. What do you think of that? I think it's just the nature of what we talked about before is that if the bar has been lowered to consuming only clips, you know, which is dictated by media platforms, that this whole idea of like, you know, algorithms and what people's attention span can and can't do is it's sort of, I don't know if it's a catch 22, but it's like, even with any stream you work on, it's like, well, our algorithm says people can't pay attention for this one.

1:20:12And I'm like, but not my people. And if you keep promoting that, they won't. I mean, if something is good, they'll stay in it. I guess the format and the nature of show business has just, again, shifted to entrepreneurs and media bubbles that are self-driven by individuals or tribal entities. And the whole framing of show business being this, you know, it's the talk show. Here come the celebrities. It's just people don't care anymore and they're all chasing clicks for clips of having interesting people do dumb shit. And we're going to bring those pies in in a second. Oh, goddammit. I knew there was a big closer.

1:20:56No, I want to end with this. It's a serious question and it's where I was going to before. But when I'm on the phone with Ari and the phone cuts out, I think they're dead. I just assume the building has collapsed. Truly. Like earthquake, 9-11. Truly, if they're in New York, I think a 9-11 has happened. Like, I'd really go there. You're a catastrophizer. You've done it your whole life. And, you know, you've been through a terrible loss. Your plane hit the mountain. Yeah. Did it change how you view catastrophe? Does it change how you allow your mind to create catastrophe all the time? No, what it changed was my sense of mortality.

1:21:32It did not change. Like, it doesn't, you know, tragic loss of somebody you love. That's not my go-to catastrophe. I didn't see that coming at all. I mean, my parents are both still alive. It's not great. But I didn't see what happened to Lynn. There was no way I could have ever seen that coming. So when somebody dies tragically, all the other catastrophizing about me and cancer or what someone's going to say about me or the world or the fires or anything else, when somebody dies, it does make me more scared in relationship because it's happened. But it also sort of makes you realize just how fragile it all is and how there is no real kind of universal order to it.

1:22:22And, you know, there's no way to answer the question why. And that's just life. So I don't, it didn't diminish my catastrophizing, but it did make me realize how fragile life is. Too heavy for an answer? No, I just think now we're ready to start. Let's record. Oh, good. Let's get the things going. We got warmed up. And now we're in it. Mark Maron, good to have you. Thank you. Nice to be here.

1:22:54That's all for this week. Thank you to Mark Maron for Stop, Bake, Buy. We'll be back in your podcast feeds on Tuesday with our usual episode with me, John, and Tommy. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free or get access to our subscriber Discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the Pod community at crooked.com slash friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, please consider leaving us a review to help boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illick Frank, and Saul Rubin.

1:23:29Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reid Cherlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

1:24:32Transcription by CastingWords immigration judges to Epstein victims themselves to understand what it means to live through this political chaos as an actual human being. And now I'm excited to tell you that Runaway Country is available ad-free to Friends of the Pod subscribers. Friends of the Pod is the subscription that supports the work Crooked does as an independent media company and gives you a ton of great bonus and ad-free content. With the midterms approaching, you are going to need more content to keep you sane. And now you can find Runaway Country right there. Subscribe now at crooked.com backslash friends.

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