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Pod Save America Episode 1068: Roxane Gay on the Myth of Civility
Episode Overview In this episode, hosted by Alex Wagner, bestselling author Roxane Gay discusses the concept of civility in politics, especially in the context of recent events like the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the ongoing government shutdown. The conversation explores the implications of calls for civility, the nature of political discourse, and the broader societal impacts of incivility.
Key Topics Discussed
- Understanding Civility
- Definition and Misuse: Civility is often defined as maintaining a level of decorum and avoiding intense emotions in political discourse. Gay argues that this definition is frequently weaponized to silence marginalized voices.
- Privilege in Calls for Civility: Those who call for civility often come from privileged backgrounds that insulate them from the harsh realities of oppression.
- The Context of Incivility
- Political Violence vs. Civility: The episode highlights the hypocrisy of calling for civility amidst acts of political violence, such as ICE raids and police brutality.
- Civility as a Fantasy: Gay asserts that in a political climate where one party seeks to erase rights for many, the expectation of civility is unrealistic.
- The Performative Nature of Politics
- Responses to Charlie Kirk's Assassination: Following the assassination, political figures expressed condolences, but Gay views these responses as performative, lacking genuine concern for the individual or the broader implications of political violence.
- Disingenuous Politicians: Gay critiques the speed and nature of politicians’ reactions, suggesting they are more concerned with optics than sincerity.
- Historical Context of Nonviolence and Resistance
- Civil Rights Movement: Gay references historical examples of nonviolent protest, noting that such strategies were met with extreme violence, illustrating the complex nature of civility in the face of oppression.
- Multiple Strategies for Change: Gay advocates for the need for various approaches to activism, acknowledging that different situations may call for different methods, including more aggressive forms of resistance.
- The Manosphere and Gender Dynamics
- Persistent Culture: Gay discusses the manosphere, a network of online communities that perpetuate misogyny and violence against women. She emphasizes the need for men to hold each other accountable.
- Impacts of Male Disillusionment: The episode explores how societal expectations and disillusionment can lead some men towards harmful ideologies.
- The Role of Activism and Grassroots Movements
- Current Activism: While acknowledging the challenges facing society, Gay highlights the importance of local activism and grassroots organizing, which often goes unnoticed but is crucial for driving change.
- The Disconnect with Media: There is a need for media to connect grassroots efforts with broader societal narratives, as many impactful movements occur outside mainstream awareness.
- Navigating Authoritarianism and Misinformation
- Current Political Climate: Gay expresses concern over the rise of authoritarianism and the erosion of trust in truth and facts.
- The Importance of Guardrails: She emphasizes the necessity of establishing boundaries to preserve democratic norms and protect against misinformation.
Conclusion The conversation with Roxane Gay underscores the complexity and urgency of discussing civility in today's political landscape. With rising authoritarianism, the need for honest dialogue, and diverse strategies for activism becomes increasingly evident. Gay's insights challenge listeners to reconsider their understanding of civility and to engage actively in movements that resist oppression.
Key Takeaways
- Civility is often a privilege that can silence those who are marginalized.
- Political violence necessitates a reevaluation of what civility means in discourse.
- Grassroots activism is crucial for societal change and often overlooked by mainstream narratives.
- The current political climate requires vigilance against misinformation and authoritarianism.
Resources
- For more insights from Roxane Gay, listen to her segments on "Pod Save America" or read her writings available through various platforms.
- Engage with local activist organizations and movements to learn how to contribute meaningfully to societal change.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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1:52Roxane Gay:Welcome to Pod Save America. I am Alex Wagner. Charlie Kirk's assassination deepened an already extraordinary political divide. Members of both parties condemned the killing and they mourned Kirk's death, regardless of whether they agreed with his politics. But Republicans quickly turned that tragedy into an attack line. They flooded social media and they accused Democrats of celebrating Charlie Kirk's death, even though no elected Democrat actually did that. Vice President J.D. Vance urged Americans not just to call out people celebrating Charlie Kirk's death, but to report them to their employers.
2:32Roxane Gay:And Vance capped that off with a plea for civility. We don't believe in political violence, but we do believe in civility. And there is no civility in the celebration of political assassination. A call for civility while masked ICE agents racially profile and detain people in unmarked vans. A call for civility while the National Guard patrols some of America's most densely populated cities under the guise of fighting crime. A call for civility after the president of the United States directed 800 or so of his top generals to focus on what he now calls, quote, the war from within. How can we be civil here when the politics are so violent?
3:15Roxane Gay:Writer Roxane Gay has an answer. We can't. She argues that civility in a country where one party is working to erase the rights of anyone who doesn't fit into a narrow and predominantly white male conservative vision of America, that that is a fantasy. This week, we're going to dive into her analysis, the myth of civility, the government shutdown, feminism in the red pill apocalypse, and a lot more. Here's my conversation with Roxanne Gay.
3:50Roxane Gay:First of all, thank you for doing this. It's great to have the, well, it's great to get some time from you to talk about the state of the world. I guess I want to start, Professor Gray Roxanne, with the article that you wrote in the New York Times a few weeks ago about the myth of civility in American politics. Maybe you can start by explaining what civility is, in your estimation, and why it's a fantasy.
4:24Alex Wagner:Well, there are unfortunately multiple definitions for civility, but when it's used in sociopolitical discourse, most often it means don't get too excited, don't get too angry, don't be too hurt. This is all an intellectual exercise. Don't step out of line. Don't do what your opposition perceives as harm. And that harm really is oftentimes about their egos. And don't make me feel complicit in whatever is happening in our world. Don't make me feel like I've done something wrong. Don't make me feel ashamed, as if we have any control over that, which we don't. And it's really unfortunate because it compromises honest and productive conversations, and it's always used as a weapon.
5:20Alex Wagner:Look at this lack of civility. And when you look at the current state of the world, which is such an inadequate phrase, you can see that what is uncivil is ICE terrorizing an apartment building in Chicago in the middle of the night and taking people from their beds. Like, that's uncivil. And so talking about it is not uncivil. And I think it's really important for any of us with sanity left to be very clear about that distinction.
5:54Roxane Gay:When you talk about the people who believe in the possibility of civility at this moment, are they sort of more simply put, just people who don't understand oppression and haven't experienced it firsthand?
6:06Alex Wagner:For the most part, yes. because most of the people who call for civility happen to be, I don't know if it's coincidence or not, heterosexual, middle or upper middle class, well-educated white men. And they oftentimes have some kind of power, whether it's platform or political power, elected office, etc. And so for them, you know, it really does offend their delicate sensibilities when you push them out of their comfort zone and force them to confront their inadequacies. They cannot tolerate it. And it's so interesting that the right came up with the phrase, not the phrase, the word snowflakes to represent people who dare to challenge the status quo.
6:51Alex Wagner:There is no bigger set of snowflakes than Republicans in power. And it's really quite interesting to see. They really are the ones who are craving safe space. Because when you call for civility in that manner, you are saying, I don't feel safe. And I need you to take it upon yourself to do whatever you have to do to make me feel safe. And it's such a level of privilege. It is such a level of privilege.
7:21Roxane Gay:Yeah. It's like they're so threatened by criticism that they have to take the TV shows off the air. They're so threatened by criticism in the form of the judicial system that they need to shutter the law firms or threaten them with lawsuits themselves. They have to threaten the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times and they have to excise the language from the history books and the textbooks. And it's all to defend their delicate sensibilities around, you know, feeling threatened about both their history, their present and their future. I guess when you talk about incivility, I want to get to the essence of that because in the piece in The Times, you say it's the refusal to surrender to hatred.
8:00Roxane Gay:What do you say to people who believe that incivility as a concept is the promotion of violence? Those are people who are telling us a lot more about themselves than anyone else because they feel that accountability is violence.
8:15Alex Wagner:They feel that truth is violence. And I noticed even in a few of the comments, which were largely very interesting and thoughtful, were some people saying, I can't believe you're calling for violence. And I'm not calling for violence. But what I am saying is that you cannot expect people who are dealing with oppression to simply kneel and bow their heads and smile as you oppress them. And when you are facing significant oppression, sometimes violence is the only language that violent people understand. And, you know, again, to bring it back to ICE, which is just such a constant presence right now, that's the only language these people understand.
9:07Alex Wagner:They throw women and reporters and children and families and men, And they throw anyone. They just throw them around as if they're ragdolls. So don't talk to me about violence. I think violence is abhorrent. I think it should be a tool of last resort. But, you know, saying that we don't have to be civil is not saying we are going to be violent. It is saying that we are not going to go quietly. and we are not going to do nothing in the face of really just pernicious overreach.
9:46Roxane Gay:Can I use it? You mentioned in the piece, you use historical examples of the Freedom Riders in the 1960s. And I think so much about nonviolent civil protest as being sort of born in that era. era. And you write in the piece, all of the protests, all of their protest was civil and nonviolent. Nonviolence didn't mean passivity. It was a strategy intended to reveal the brutal contrast between the tactics of the oppressor and the experiences of the oppressed. Nonviolent civil protest was met with rank incivility, which is to say the hypocritical way in which we presently understand civility and incivility is nothing new.
10:27Roxane Gay:So help me understand it through the lens of this moment where you're saying, don't ask us to be civil. Do you think that the work of those freedom fighters and those civil rights activists in the 1960s, sort of in the gate of civility, was the wrong strategy? I guess I'm trying to square what happened before in that context with what you're talking about now.
10:50Alex Wagner:No, not at all. I think that it's going to take multiple strategies. And many people have said that we could not have Martin Luther King without Malcolm X, and we could not have Malcolm X without Martin Luther King. We need multiple approaches. And throughout the civil rights movement, there have been significant proponents of nonviolence. And they have a point. And for many people, nonviolence does feel like the right way, because it isn't passivity. It is an active choice to be nonviolent in the face of violence. It really isn't. Quite frankly, I admire it. I don't necessarily have that capacity, but I admire the people who do.
11:34Alex Wagner:And I also know that there have been many people during the civil rights movement who decided that, you know what, we are going to fight fire with fire. and Black gun owners in the South in particular were big advocates of not just going quietly when lynch mobs tried to come to their homes and kidnap them and do grievous harm to them. They decided, no, you know what, we're going to use our guns because we have them too. And in a perfect world, we would never have to go there. But the right to defend oneself, you know that is a right and I think that more people should avail themselves of that right when they need to and I'm not talking about just going out and buying a gun but I am saying we do get to fight back we shouldn't have to just bow our heads and suck it up but I very much admire what non-violent activists were doing and in that piece I wrote because I had recently been to the Civil Rights History Museum.
12:37Alex Wagner:And it was just so powerful. It's just a really great museum, and really well curated, and very educational. And I mean that in the best possible way. And so ever since then, I've just been thinking so much about what a significant effort it was during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and quite honestly up to till today, that what a great movement and how powerful it has been to see so many different approaches all arcing toward the same goal. And we need multiple approaches. It's not going to be just any one strategy that's going to overcome the rise of the second or the third or the fifth rise of fascism in this country and honestly in other places as well.
13:34Alex Wagner:So we just have to be able to have that conversation and say, you know, it's going to take a lot of different strategies and a lot of different minds.
13:42Roxane Gay:To that end, I mean, the idea of opening the door to incivility, to not be constrained by the notions of civility that are basically thrust upon, you know, dissenters in this present political climate. I wonder how you think about that in the context of the Charlie Kirk assassination, right? I mean, it feels like uniformly elected Democratic officials, you know, mourned his Kirk's death, even if they did not celebrate the ideas that he put forward. and it was complicated, right? It was complicated to figure out a way to disagree with the ideas that he stood for and promoted and resolutely stand against murder and assassination.
14:33Roxane Gay:How did you think about those events in the context of, I guess, believing these uncivil times are going to call for and result in uncivil action?
14:47Alex Wagner:Well, I thought that it was all very performative on the parts of politicians. And I don't think they care one way or the other about Charlie Kirk or what happened. I think they understood that they had to perform contrition just in case. They were hedging their bets. And it's so cynical and frankly, pathetic. but you know i'm against the death penalty the punishment for having odious beliefs is not death and so what happened there was a travesty but it would be a travesty for anyone to be killed anytime someone loses their life especially in some misguided attempt to do whatever that killer was trying to do.
15:38Alex Wagner:We have to resist it. I just don't believe politicians when they're offering that resistance because it seems so disingenuous. And the speed with which they came out with those statements, my God. But it is what it is. I accept it for what it is. But I am not going to mourn someone who wouldn't spit to put me out if I was on fire. I just, you know, but I think it's criminal what happened to him. And I also feel like the discourse has gotten so far afield from sanity. Murder is bad. And just... Full stop. It's just murder is bad. And the fact that we don't even have that common ground as just a people anymore breaks my heart.
16:30Alex Wagner:But murder is not only bad when someone is on stage and is killed by an assassin. Murder is bad when police kill an unarmed Black person or an unarmed person of any race. It's bad when a husband murders his wife because divorce is just too much effort or because he believes he has a right to do so. It's just always bad. And I prefer to talk about that than to be so specific and say, oh, but what about in this instance? No, I'm actually just against it all the time.
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18:23Roxane Gay:Yeah, and I think that that, you know, when you talk about it in that framework, it makes total sense, right, that J.D. Vance, on one hand, memorializing Charlie Kirk, can call for civility as he is part of an administration that is dragging people into ICE detention centers, targeting blue states and cities, trying to disappear trans people from society. You know, all these things are incredibly violent things. Violence is very inherent to the Trump administration. But because it's affecting those people and not this person, you can call for civility while being remarkably uncivil and explicitly violent.
19:04Roxane Gay:How do you think they think of that disconnect?
19:07Alex Wagner:I don't know that they do. I don't think that they care. One of the many things the Trump administration has shown us over the past, well, it's more than a decade now, off and on, is that they simply shape reality as they go along. And they shape their ideologies to fit whatever they're trying to accomplish. It's all very malleable. It's all very fluid. And that's really what's so scary. They don't bother themselves with reality. They don't trouble themselves with fact. They simply make the world as they want it to be. And they expect the rest of us to go along with it. And then when we point out that there is a grave inconsistency, we're the problem.
19:58Alex Wagner:We're un-American or we're uncivil. And I firmly believe that's the most confounding issue that we're facing because, you know, Trump, for example, is trying to frame this current government shutdown as a Democrat problem. when he has the executive branch, the judicial branch, and the legislative branch. There is no check. There is no balance. It's all Trump all the time. So what do you mean that you are going to lay responsibility at the feet of Democrats? And then what is going on with the Democrats that they are not in front of every single camera they can find and every single microphone they can find, putting the blame for what's happening directly at their feet?
20:49Alex Wagner:The Democrats are being so weak and they'll say, oh, we're not in power. You're in office. So you have some kind of power.
21:01Roxane Gay:Well, I think it's interesting that you talk about this in the context of the government shutdown, because I was having a conversation with Dan Pfeiffer yesterday on Pod Save America. and he was saying the Democrats are doing the worst. Part of their strategy is so flawed, which is to say we're not at fault for this government shutdown. In fact, they should own it and say, we had to shut the government down because of what this administration is trying to do to Americans. We were left with no resort because we care about the health and welfare of our citizens and we can't fund a government that is actively trying to strip them of their rights, strip them of access to healthcare.
21:42Roxane Gay:So this is a principled fight. It's actually, in some ways, I wonder if that more adheres to your notion of why civility doesn't work and it's time for uncivil tactics, like shutting down the government in the name of principle. I mean, does that square or am I overthinking it?
21:58Alex Wagner:I don't think you're overthinking it at all. I think it's an impossible situation. And if the Democrats would own it, I would probably reconsider how I'm feeling about the way in which they're proceeding. If they would say, yes, we did what had to be done because we are willing to lead. But they don't even seem to have that capacity to own it. They are always hedging and hawing. They're always sort of working from a place of listening to advisors and pundits and polls instead of listening to their instincts and forgetting about whatever three-dimensional chess game they think they're playing and just contending with what is actually happening.
22:48Alex Wagner:So I would be very open to seeing them try anything, anything, because I don't purport to have all the answers. It's very easy to sit from my office and say they're being weak, which they are. But I also don't know how we proceed given the extent of what we are dealing with right now. But I do know that something different has to happen. I mean, something has to happen. It's not even about something different. They're not doing anything.
23:19Roxane Gay:Well, the government is shut down. I mean, in fairness, they did that Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer didn't play ball and we are in a government shutdown. Right. The question is what happens next? Yeah. And I think to your point. It's unclear why they did it right. They haven't been saying explicitly why they did it. We there is a conversation happening about health care and its affordability. And I think that's inherently in service of democratic goals, but there's no ownership of the fight. And what I'm hearing from you is like, own the fight because the times demand battle, not murderous battles, but new tactics and new strategies.
Read the full transcript
23:58Alex Wagner:And you know, like people always go, you know, like you said, it's always like people go to violence, but it's like, no, just resist. And then stop always being on the defense, go on the offense. There are so many things that Democratic politicians could and should be talking about that can be laid directly at the feet of Donald Trump and his administration. You don't even have to look for it because they're literally coming and they're dropping it at your hand and your feet rather. So just talk about it, do something. And, you know, the fact that, yes they and the bar is in hell like oh yes they didn't capitulate to to stochastic terrorism congratulations hakeem and chuck good work i mean that we have to recognize that because that's all there is i mean i am so i'm frustrated with it you sound bereft i am i am bereft because right now the Trump administration is like a drunk terrorist in a candy store with a sugar addiction.
25:11Alex Wagner:They are doing everything they've ever wanted. And of course, we were all given the blueprint for what they were going to do. And the Democrats haven't even bothered to write a response or to articulate their own policy platform in that really big public way. Which again, why are we not writing a Project 2027. And so, yeah, I'm just bereft because where does this end?
25:37Roxane Gay:Well, you write in the article, I keep wondering when we will reach a cultural breaking point, when finally the Trump administration will go far enough to shove us out of the comforts of our day-to-day lives. I was, again, having this conversation about who has been, I mean, there's a number of people in this country who've been shaken out of their day-to-day lives, not by choice, by force. Accepting those individuals. It feels like if there is grassroots rage, organization, and indignation, it is not being mirrored in the sort of institutional response to all this, which is law firms capitulating, universities saying, okay, what deal can we make for you, with you?
26:20Roxane Gay:Media companies saying, we'll take them off the air or we'll hire some different people and we'll change the lens of our focus. How much do you think that institutional civility, if you will, is undermining a real, you know, citizen-led uncivility? Or do you think the citizens still have, I mean, how do you see the landscape as it stands in terms of reaching that breaking point?
26:45Alex Wagner:We are so very far away. But you make an important point, which is to say that activism is happening. And almost every single community, on the ground, grassroots, local organizers are truly doing God's work right now. And I am so grateful that that work is happening, that that organizing is happening. Like right now in LA, in Chicago, in DC, Boston, we're seeing some amazing resistance to really terrifying encroachments on people's freedom. And what's weird is that many people don't know about it. And so part of the problem is that it's the media's job to connect what's happening on the ground with the institutions.
27:37Alex Wagner:And they're not doing it. And we all know why, I guess, but it's sad. And so I think until more people lose a loved one or a friend or are mistakenly detained or find themselves in such financial precarity that they have only one choice left, which is to resist, until we all sort of start to feel that boot on our neck, I just don't know that there's going to be anything that's going to make us sort of, and I include myself in that, that are going to make us sort of do something. even though I don't even know where to start other than to look to, as Mr. Rogers said, the helpers. But one of the people I follow closely in terms of activism and where to expend our energy is Mariam Kaba, who is an abolitionist among many other things.
28:34Alex Wagner:And one of the things that she talks about quite a lot is just picking one or two things because you cannot do it all. And so that's the approach I've been trying to take.
28:45Roxane Gay:What things have you chosen?
28:47Alex Wagner:I have chosen, I am more than happy to go to a protest. I think that it's useful. I'm actually very shy and quiet. So for me, that where I can just sort of blend in and be there is good. But I also am more than happy to write a check. And I'll do whatever is asked of me. But what do I have that I can contribute. And what a lot of organizers need is money to do that work, lawyers to get them out of jail. So I am trying to show up when and where I can. And it seems to be useful. I was at a protest about four or five weeks ago, and someone said, oh, it's so good to see you here. And I just thought, oh, really?
29:37Alex Wagner:I'm just standing here. But okay. So sometimes those things do matter. And I do try to do work with mutual aid in LA when I can, where I live, have time. Because that's just the community I'm more connected to and that I know more closely. And I'm always writing. It's a small tool, but it is one.
29:59Roxane Gay:It's a powerful tool that you have. I mean, I wonder what you think. I have to ask this in the context of civility because the calls for civility always mushroom in moments of political protest and, you know, citizens on the street. And when we saw those ICE protests in L.A., they were deemed criminal and dangerous, even though, I mean, Waymo's accepted they weren't criminal for the large part or they weren't dangerous. And I sort of wonder whether you think there's a little bit of, not a risk, but that there needs to be a cautionary note sounded in and around this. Because I believe that some of this crackdown on blue cities and states is to actually foment violent behavior or criminal behavior.
30:58Roxane Gay:which so far, you know, nobody's taken the bait. But one wonders whether the calls for civility are just a red herring. I mean, I'm saying this rhetorically more than anything else. And really, whether Trump's just gunning for, you know, he wants people out in the streets and defacing property because that gives him the excuse to further crack down.
31:18Alex Wagner:I don't think he needs an excuse, honestly. Yeah. I don't think he cares. But do I think that they are trying to bait people with all of the pomp and circumstance? Of course they are. But both that can be true and that we have to show up can also be true. Because while all of the sort of showmanship is happening, like the thing that they did in Chicago, it's just, it's showmanship. They videotaped the whole thing and then released a sizzle reel online this morning. And so, yeah, they're clearly doing it for show. But while they're doing it for show, they are taking real people out of their homes.
32:00Alex Wagner:They are splitting up real families. The evil work is happening alongside the show. And to just not respond would not be okay. And fortunately, organizers are brilliant for the most part. And in LA, one of the great things that they have done is that if you are staying in a hotel as an ICE person, you're not going to get a good night's sleep. You are going to hear all kinds of stuff. People gather in the parking lots. They play music from their cars really loud. They honk their horns. They shine their lights into all of the hotel windows. That's not violent. But it's also not passive. And so, yeah, sure, you can be a part of ICE and you can continue to terrorize this community and kidnap people, but you're not going to be well rested.
32:55Alex Wagner:and I love that someone came up with that because it's so elegant and so simple and you know that when it happens those men of ICE are because it is a vocational program for men they are probably so irritated and that brings me a small amount of I don't think joy is the word but satisfaction
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35:54Roxane Gay:You bring up gender and I want to talk a little bit because you're a feminist about one of the things that fueled Trump's rise, which is the manosphere. That's like red pilled men who blame women for not only their own problems, but society's problems at large. is the manosphere something new no it isn't they just have a new way of gathering
36:18Alex Wagner:the manosphere has always existed congress um
36:27Alex Wagner:it's everywhere uh and the army um the white house like truly uh that's just off the top of my head. It has always existed. What is particularly troubling and unique about the current moment is that they have such easy access to one another and that there are no limits because they tend to find themselves on these forums where there is no moderation, where they are openly allowed to talk about really virulent misogyny, which whatever, but then also violence against women, violence against people they disagree with. They have created their own vernacular to be able to better communicate amongst themselves about their anxieties and their grievances.
37:14Alex Wagner:And so they have more reach than before. And they are really good at finding the disaffected and disillusioned young men, or not so young men, who have nowhere to put feelings and who don't have the tools to cope with feelings and who don't have the personal ability to deal with accountability of, you know, take a shower, brush your teeth, learn to talk to other people, and then listen to what is being said to you. learn to ask questions you know so much of this is just basic sort of human 101 that they have decided they should be able to opt out of and still have the woman of their dreams and the career of their dreams like that's not how any of this works you have to put effort in and it doesn't have to even be that much effort I see scrubs all the time who are doing just fine And so it just takes a little effort.
38:23Alex Wagner:And I have some empathy for disillusioned people and disillusioned men. Because they were told that they were going to have the world as their oyster. And their fathers and their grandfathers did. And then here's this generation that isn't getting everything they've ever wanted. even though really did anyone ever get it? And if you've been told a certain thing your entire life and then it's not true, of course you're disillusioned. But I also don't think that that disillusionment is an excuse for hating women and for hating just people of color or queer people, et cetera. They always target people who are more vulnerable than them so that they can feel some sense of toxic masculinity.
39:22Alex Wagner:It's just a terrible brew. But most men are not susceptible to that, fortunately. They're fine. And the hand-wringing that we do in the media all the time about the male loneliness epidemic, I don't know, stop looking at a screen and go outside and talk to someone.
39:43Roxane Gay:Do you think, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Like, I have two boys and I'm constantly thinking like, oh, God, is the manosphere the natural extension? Like, are they going to get subsumed by it? So we talk about feelings a lot. We get off the screens a lot. I mean, I just think what is the way that society or women or whoever wants to take the mantle upon themselves to – how do you combat the manosphere? It feels, I mean, I don't want to be unduly emphatic about its importance, but it does feel like a real thing, a real development, even if its essence is not new. The construct of this entire online sort of world subsuming young men and sort of radicalizing them in a conservative direction seems like something that like progressives and Democrats and people who care about empathy need to sort of like unpack and maybe figure out how to unwind.
40:43Roxane Gay:And I guess I totally understand the notion of reconnecting to people and encouraging conversation and community and all of the rest. But I wonder if you think there's anything more explicit that, I don't know, our leaders need to do or we as members of society need to think about.
41:01Alex Wagner:Yes and no. Part of me just thinks they need to work this out amongst themselves. Because men listen to other men. And so I think men need to take responsibility for their brethren. I really, really do. Because they're actually not going to listen to women for the most part. They're just not. And so I think men need to hold other men accountable. But how much more do we need to do as a society to cater to men and make them feel whole? I mean, we're living under a Trump presidency.
41:34Roxane Gay:Apparently, we need to do a lot more.
41:36Alex Wagner:So much of what is happening is predicated on a lie that women are doing so well that it's gone too far. And let's send them bitches back in the kitchen. You know, it's crazy. It is genuinely not grounded in sanity. And at the same time, I have two brothers. And they're amazing. Well, only one is surviving, but no, it's okay.
42:02Roxane Gay:I thought you were going to say only one was amazing. No, no, no.
42:04Alex Wagner:They're both, both amazing. And they are awesome fathers, reasonably good husbands, and amazing brothers. And so I know what men are capable of. And for me, that's the standard. Like, just exist. You know, and they're guys' guys. They, you know, they shoot guns. They were both raising only daughters. Oh, well, no, one has a son, but he's a very gentle giant. They watch sports. They do all of the things that are typically coded as masculine, but then they're also raising children and doing their share of domestic labor. My parents, I credit them with modeling what relationships between people of different genders should look like.
42:54Alex Wagner:And so we don't actually have to look that far to find great examples of men. So what do we do about these people who have somehow not been able to actively participate in a healthy society? I don't have the answer, but I just don't think that we need to do some kind of deeply special outreach because so much of our society is already dedicated to supporting men and making them feel better.
43:25Roxane Gay:Well, then let's talk about women, because you are a feminist. And I wonder how you think of that concept in the Trump years, how it's changed and what being a feminist demands. I mean, you don't have to.
43:41Alex Wagner:No, no, it's fine. I don't know that feminism has changed. We're still fighting the same fight we've always fought. I think a lot of our work has become more urgent. And right now we're trying to figure out how do we stop losing ground? How do we get more people on board with recognizing that women are people, that women matter? How do we, you know, when you look at all of the disparities that women continue to face, it's like, how do we continue to remind people of this when we have an administration that's saying, oh, women have it great, no more need for feminism? when it's patently untrue.
44:23Alex Wagner:I think our work is just incredibly urgent right now. And what a lot of people don't understand is that our work as feminists is not only about bettering the lives of women and making sure that women have equity in society. It's about bettering the lives of everyone, regardless of gender. It is about making sure that we have a planet to live on and that everyone deserves equal pay for equal work, that everyone should have bodily autonomy. And that gets so deeply misunderstood and lost. That's why I am able to care about, you know, the very sad and disillusioned young men in the manosphere. It's like, yeah, you want to see me dead.
45:14Alex Wagner:you think I have no value because I'm over the age of 32 or whatever, but I still see you as a human being. And I'm not even a saint. It's not about like, oh, I'm a good person. No, these are table stakes for just being a person.
45:34Roxane Gay:But that's, you know, can I just say that in these times requires a degree of like connection to your own humanity and cultivating empathy. you know like you giving a shit about the man the men in the manosphere at least you know sort of objectively requires a certain you know a connection to you you're the the the outcomes of your fellow humans or an investment in you know your humanity do you find that challenging in these times as you see the sort of disposability with which this administration in particular handles the lives of certain people who aren't, and certain, you know, entire regions of the country that are critical or don't agree with them and their worldview?
46:18Roxane Gay:I find it very challenging.
46:20Alex Wagner:Like every day it's a battle. Like it's a real struggle because a very big part of me is just like, fuck you, honestly, get it together. If you cannot make that work, given this entire world and how racist and homophobic and misogynistic it is. If you cannot make that work, even a little bit, I just don't know that I can cry for you. But at the same time, I know that if we don't address that, women don't get to live in peace. Women are not safe. And so even if it's self-interest, we have to care a little bit. otherwise we are all in danger and I don't want anyone to be in danger and so it is a constant struggle I try to have empathy I really do and I mean there are some people I'm just can't work it up like you know Trump people who are still like yeah that's my guy
47:17Roxane Gay:when they look at Trump right now okay then that it's hard the empathy is hard in those Yeah, it's impossible.
47:25Alex Wagner:Like, okay, congratulations, I guess. But like, what am I empathizing with? Why would I? I'm not a saint. There are so many people out there, and God bless them, who are like, yes, I have empathy for my fellow man, even as he points his weapon at me. And we need those people. I'm not one of them. I'm just like. What did you think?
47:46Roxane Gay:You know, I'm thinking of the moment when Charlie Kirk's widow said she forgave the man who assassinated her husband. Did she? What did you think of that? I think that Erica Kirk was ready for this moment. Mm-hmm.
48:08Alex Wagner:I think she was ready for the moment and she knew exactly what to say to further gild the path ahead of her. I don't know if she really forgives. I could not possibly. Like if someone, God forbid, did something to my wife, there would be absolutely no forgiveness ever so yeah you know maybe she is just that connected with jesus but i'm not so i i just thought it was shocking honestly i i thought it was shocking i was like he's not even at the funeral home yet like what well but you know a part i think there's like the person and then
48:55Roxane Gay:there's the gesture. And to me, at least, it was like, God, there's been so much finger pointing. There's been so much rage stewed up around this. There's a president who's taken it as a moment to, you know, go after left wing radicals. I thought it was actually like I thought whatever the motivations and the timeline for someone to call for forgiveness, difficult forgiveness in a time when we seem so incapable of forgiving anything. I actually thought it was like a profound moment as just the gesture itself, you know? And I, you know, I find a lot of things appalling about what Charlie Kirk was talking about.
49:36Roxane Gay:But just, it's been so long that we've heard that kind of like just notion that, you know, to offer kindness in a moment of peril is, anyway, that's just me.
49:50Alex Wagner:No, I mean, I can see why someone would get there, why you could get there. I don't have that ability or that gene. I just, because I didn't believe it. I did not believe it for a single second. I don't believe someone who espouses the hatred that Kirk did is capable of forgiveness. I don't even think they believe in forgiveness. And so I just could not get there. But I hope that she has the space to mourn and to care for her young children and that they have the space to mourn. You know, I think that those are the truly innocent people in all of this. And I would never wish anyone harm, but I don't believe that she has forgiven the man that killed her husband.
50:46but you know i and i don't believe that her saying it quelled anything i think it was just
50:56Alex Wagner:i it was like performance really is the only thing i can think of but i hope but you know we'll see i think that but you know like her actions speak very loudly the fact that she is now the ceo of turning point like right oh so we're gonna pick up where we left off
51:13Roxane Gay:Before we head to break, just a quick bit of housekeeping here. Vote Save America is running a first-of-its-kind pilot program to recruit candidates from Arizona and North Carolina and Texas. We're talking about school board, city council, state legislature, races that really shape our communities and they build a bench for long-term democratic power. So even if you're not from one of those states, they will connect you with incredible national partners at the National Democratic Training Committee and run for something, both the organizations that will get you set up and ready to run anywhere in this great country.
51:48Roxane Gay:Vote Save America will be hosting a live call this Tuesday, October 7th at 5 p.m. Pacific, 8 p.m. Eastern time to welcome new people to the program. and the great and inimitable Tommy Vitor will be there along with Vote Save America's partners who are driving this work to break down and explain what it takes to run and how we will support you every single step of the way. If you have even thought about running, if it has even been in your wildest dreams, this is the place to start. So sign up for the call and learn more at votesaveamerica.com slash run. Paid for by Vote Save America. Learn more at votesaveamerica.com.
52:30Roxane Gay:This ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.
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53:53Alex Wagner:Quince dot com slash crooked.
53:58Roxane Gay:You are someone that tells the truth about what you think. Unfortunately. No, well, I think too, you know, it's incredible. I think there are obviously people that are going to disagree with you, but it's like you're an incredible writer. You're very compelling. And I think the piece about civility is very provocative. It really engenders a lot of conversation. And that, I think, is a good thing for society, even if you don't necessarily disagree with what you're writing about. How do you look at the really concerted, really unprecedented effort on the part of this administration to go after public critics, journalists, anybody who's out there speaking in an uncensored way about the ills of this president and his allies?
54:52Alex Wagner:That's terrifying. I mean, it has, I've been struggling with writer's block for years now, and this has not helped. Because I have a family now, and it's not even about what could happen to me, which I don't relish the thought of anything happening to me. It's that other people could be harmed. Because historically, I've gotten death threats for about 10 or 11 years now. I've had to have security at almost every public event that I do it's really disconcerting to have to be followed around by men who are armed just because I have a few opinions that quite honestly are not particularly radical it's terrifying and it makes me afraid to write to really write like I have not written the things that I really want to write because I just am not willing like my risk tolerance as I've gotten older, now that I'm married, and I have a fair—my parents, well, my dad, my brother, their kids—my risk tolerance is much lower than it used to be when it was just kind of me.
56:05Alex Wagner:And that's because people have called my parents' house. They have sent insane emails, and not just one, but like hundreds, sometimes in a single day. And so on the one hand, it's like, oh, someone has a lot of free time. But on the other hand, you don't know which one of those people is actually going to show up at your doorstep or at your public event. Like I did an event two days ago and I was just like, and I think about this every time I go on stage, but I was like, oh gosh, I hope today's not the day. And so - Wow, really? Yeah, really. And we had two bodyguards in the wings. And it was like, oh, thank God they're there.
56:51Alex Wagner:But what a shame that they're there. And it just, you know, it's like the price for doing this kind of work should not be I'm afraid for my life. And the lives of all the people who have joined me in these public spaces. Like, that's just ridiculous. And I think we should all agree on that. And same with, like I said, with Charlie Kirk, like the price for having odious opinions is not death and it shouldn't be harassment. But here we are.
57:23Roxane Gay:As we think about kind of the stakes, right? And I'm just listening to this example you cite about literally being afraid for your life as you speak your opinion publicly. Some people say we are on the brink of authoritarianism. And some people just say we are under the rule of an authoritarian leader. First of all, do you think the distinction makes a difference? Yes. And where do you think we are?
57:47Alex Wagner:We are definitely under authoritarian rule. My parents are from Port-au-Prince, Haiti. They fled a dictatorship. I grew up understanding what a dictatorship is and what authoritarianism is, like many children of immigrants. And since January 6th, my dad has just been shaking his head in disbelief. And over the past several months, like he for me, he's the canary in the coal mine. And he is like, oh, wow, we are in a dictatorship. And he is disgusted. And understandably so. So I think we're already there. I do not know how much worse it's going to get. I don't know when it's going to get better.
58:30Alex Wagner:But I do know that very few dictatorships last very long. And I do try to remember that.
58:37Roxane Gay:That is our cold comfort. I do wonder, though, as we think about the net effect of these years beyond the partisan divide, the kind of chasmic partisan divide, and the isolation and the sense of disassociation within one country. I wonder about like our ability to like even determine the truth at the end of it all. Right. Like I'm thinking about I think there was a moment two weeks ago. It's all a blur when President Trump was tweeting out about Tylenol causing autism. And you responded saying, how are there no guardrails? You also mentioned some things about Democrats. but just focus on the guardra.
59:18Roxane Gay:I mean, my reaction was cosine, what? And I wonder what you think the net effect of like this period, I guess, new era, I'm not sure where we are here, of misinformation and calculated disinformation, like where that leaves us as a society, as someone who's interested in words and the truth and meaning, someone who's, you know, a professor and like is in the industry of teaching people the truth, what happens when the truth becomes so atomized or fungible?
59:51Alex Wagner:That's a good question. And we're finding out in real time. It's a really dangerous, dangerous time because, and you say like, are we there yet? We're there for so many reasons. And the dismantling of higher education, trying to get rid of the Department of Education, the way that they are trying to undermine scientific research, the way that they're trying to keep international students out of the country. All of this is part of a plan, which, again, we already know about because we have the PDF.
1:00:26Alex Wagner:They released it and then they did it.
1:00:28Roxane Gay:Project 2025.
1:00:29Alex Wagner:Imagine.
1:00:30Roxane Gay:It was, what is it? The way that you have to read? Required reading.
1:00:35Alex Wagner:Yes, it was absolutely like we, you know, either you did your homework or you didn't. But, you know, we're seeing the way they're trying to erode knowledge. And we have to continually remind ourselves that science is real. Facts matter. And we have to do that work to make sure that we are as well informed as possible. And I also believe we have to demand that there should be guardrails. Like, the president is going to build a ballroom that is larger than the East Wing. And there's no, like, congressional approval required. I think a lot of us thought that the Constitution was stronger than it is turning out to be.
1:01:21Alex Wagner:and it's interesting because republicans oftentimes frame themselves as constitutionalists and now they're like uh we thought it was a suggestion originalist yeah yeah um it's bad which is not the most eloquent thing i can say but it is the truest thing i can say but i also think we have to resist the idea that um truth is fungible that facts are fungible they're
1:01:45Roxane Gay:not yeah they're just alternative facts are not there are no alternative no there really are by the way just a declaration of principles right there when kellyanne conway said there are alternative facts we everybody should have been listening a little harder yes here we are and
1:01:59Alex Wagner:that's what's so interesting about them they're actually not devious they're not slick they're they're very blunt tool here is it here it is let me go to mcdonald's they're just very plain about what they're going to do.
1:02:15Roxane Gay:Well, at risk of sounding like a fan of the strategy, they're also they don't give a shit. No, they just say it and they do it. And I think probably there's a lesson in there as we began this conversation talking about the hand wringing by some elected Democrats in the context of a shutdown. It's like, you know, Trump has taught the country that you can be very
1:02:40Alex Wagner:declarative and very explicit. And I think that's actually my biggest issue with the Democrats. And it's what I'm yearning to see from them. Care less.
1:02:52Roxane Gay:Keep caring, but care less about the response.
1:02:55Alex Wagner:Make better choices about what you care about. Just do it. It's not admirable, but it's fascinating to see the way that the Trump administration does not care about permission, public opinion. They don't care. Like this ridiculous, and I'm writing about it right now, the compact that they want universities to sign, basically it's sort of like a 10-page bend the knee and let us reshape you. It's completely wild. every single democratic norm that has existed has been shattered and they're like we are just getting started yeah and i don't think that's a way to lead at all i do not think that we should lower ourselves to what they're doing but i do think that with whatever they believe democratic politicians should care less about what people are going to say or what people are going to think and fight the good fight.
1:03:57Alex Wagner:And I think we have some really great examples. I think Mom Donnie in New York is incredibly interesting. I'm always a little suspicious of anyone who wants to run for office, but he has genuinely fresh ideas. Are they gonna be realistic? I don't know, but who cares? It's at least trying and his ideas are like, yes, let's make sure that people can eat. Let's make sure that people have a roof over their head. Why are we objecting to any of this? It's great. And so I would love to just see more politicians take some big swings at things that we all deserve. And they're popular. These ideas are popular.
1:04:40Roxane Gay:I'm going to take hope in the idea that Roxane Gay has found something to celebrate in American political life, which is someone taking a big swing out there. That makes me feel good at the end of a conversation.
1:04:54Alex Wagner:And even AOC, like I think she's brilliant and interesting. She's plain spoken. She doesn't pull punches. Jasmine Crockett. Let's also look to the people who are doing really great stuff. And there are, in fact, some Democratic leaders who are doing a lovely job, especially under these circumstances.
1:05:14Roxane Gay:These are extraordinary circumstances. Well, you know, I applaud you for the sort of courage to be out there and to take the risks. and to write eloquently and very compellingly about stuff that's pretty complicated and disheartening. And like I said, I just think the piece you, well, all of your writing is worth reading, but the most recent one was incredibly provocative and really made me think. And I'm really appreciative that you could take some time to chat with us all about it. Thanks for your time. Of course. Thank you for having me, Alex.
1:05:51Alex Wagner:If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank, and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
1:06:22Alex Wagner:Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
1:06:52Thank you.
From the publisher
What is civility? Who does it serve? When, if ever, is incivility called for? New York Times bestselling author Roxane Gay joins Alex Wagner to discuss the right's recent calls for political civility and why Roxane believes those calls are based on a fantasy of our politics. The two unpack the political discourse in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination and the ongoing government shutdown, talk about Roxane's belief that the "manosphere" has always been with us, and debate whether there's a perfect, polite way to communicate about our differences.
For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email transcripts@crooked.com and include the name of the podcast.
