1069: Trump's War on Blue America

23:06and when asked said he would invoke the Insurrection Act if, quote, people were being killed and courts were holding us up or governors or mayors were holding us up. That's quite a range of activities that would lead to Insurrection Act. I know, I know. Anyone want to explain like what's going on with the Insurrection Act and how it's different than what's been happening so far? I mean, look, there's, the legal scholars for a long time have said the Insurrection Act is ridiculously broad and needs to be reformed. Ah, just missed it. Yeah, I wish we'd done that one. That's a real bummer. Again, can't even, the government is closed right now, so couldn't do that, let alone reforming the Insurrection Act.

23:43Not our biggest obstacle. But that's like when I was, when gay marriage wasn't legal, like that wasn't my obstacle to marriage in the same way. But there are multiple parts of the Insurrection Act. Some of them require state buy-in, some of them don't. Some of them are broader than others. Some of them are not. I don't want to like play down the dangers of the president invoking the Insurrection Act. At the same time, if you go back and look at the warnings, of how a president could use the Insurrection Act, warnings from 2022, 2021, right? What you find is a description of what Trump is already doing.

24:13And it seems like what they like is the idea of signaling that the Insurrection Act is some like final boss for the libs, right? But it's not. And the other part of this, and Brennan Center talks about this, legal scholars talk about this, there is no martial law in this country. Even if there's military in our streets, you still have your constitutional rights. Those do not go away. And the court has held that. the idea that the insurrection act is sort of beyond traditional view is just not true like i'm not saying it's a great day uh but the as i said the the the ruling from uh that judge on the president uh deploying national guard uh references the ruling that says there are limits on the invocation of the insurrection act as well so it's scary but like it's not some get out of court free card for them yeah no they're just so horny to declare martial law like elon musk was tweeting over the weekend that we need to bukele the court system here and what that means is basically throw out any independent judges, pack the courts with loyalists, and then declare what Bukele called a state of exception.

25:09It would be called a state of emergency here where they just suspended due process and threw people indiscriminately in jail with no charges, some for life. So that's what Elon Musk is advocating for on Twitter. There is a, the difference between what Trump has already been doing with the troops and what he could do theoretically with the Insurrection Act is, you remember when the troops were here in LA, they were only guarding the federal buildings. And if you listen to Miller and some people in the administration, they're saying, well, we're just sending them in to guard the ICE facilities, to guard the ICE facilities, protect the ICE facilities because they're federal buildings.

25:45And so what he's trying to do now is basically say he's deploying troops to defend federal buildings and only to be on, to defend things, right? And it's not offensive. It's not, they're not supposed to be able to do law enforcement activities, right? The Insurrection Act theoretically allows them to do law enforcement activities. So that would be the difference. But like you said, while there may not be much courts can do to review the invocation of the Insurrection Act, the manner in which it is carried out is definitely reviewable. Meaning that you can't just suddenly have troops in the streets arresting Americans and throwing their rights out.

26:23I'd also just say, I've seen that distinction and maybe that could turn out to be very important. But if you look at the way in which Stephen Miller and others are describing what they're already allowed to do, they've actually left behind the idea that they're just guarding buildings because now they can be there in support of law enforcement operations. But they're defending the federal agents as they get attacked. Sure. Yes, of course. That's what I'm saying. That's the that's the thin read that they're hanging. Yes. But even still, it's like, OK, they are they are hiring vast numbers of new ICE agents.

26:50That will be the vanguard for all of this. We're talking about a distinction. OK, if the Insurrection Act is invoked, if you have troops, but without the radicalized ICE agents with them, is that better? Is that worse? I do think they think they probably think that the political impact of saying Insurrection Act is probably worse for them. Yeah, all I'm saying is that, like, we've already gone so far. I don't think anyone knows what it would mean for the president to invoke the Insurrection Act. But we already have troops on the ground, not just to defend federal buildings, but anywhere there's ICE, which is everywhere.

27:18Well, let's talk politics, because back when it was L.A. and D.C., you know, there were all these warnings. This could be good politics for Trump. I remember there was in D.C. there was a lot of like Democrats are walking into Donald Trump's trap. He wants to make everything about crime. And here we go. New CBS poll over the weekend shows 58 percent of voters disapprove of the guard deployments. They also asked, you know, do you support sending active military to cities? Only 39 percent said yes. 61 percent no, including 70 percent of independents said no. Even one in five Republicans said no.

27:51What do you guys think about the politics of all this? Yeah, the immigration handling was only at 45 approved, 55 disapproved. And the deploying National Guard was 42, 58. I mean, overall, his polling is just around this 42 percent approval number. It hasn't really budged for like a decade now. You know what I mean? I'm a little skeptical. We'll get to this in the shutdown, too. I'm a little skeptical of some of these under-the-hood numbers. I just think most people aren't paying attention. I don't think this is necessarily— I don't think the images of what we're seeing in Chicago of tear-gassing cops and brutalizing kids and random people is a good political message for them.

28:27I don't. I guess there was another number there, which is they did Most Important Issue, and crime was only at 9%. And it was, you know, ahead of crime was immigration, then health care, then inflation, then economy, the most important. So his whole goal of making this about fighting crime, which he'd started to do at least a little bit in D.C., it just hasn't worked. That's not what people think this is. Yeah. And I do think, like to Tommy's point, it's like he's kind of been stuck in the same place for a long time. You look at this CBS poll and, you know, most people view Republicans as extreme and strong and Democrats as weak.

29:02Weak. Number one word. Number one word is weak. And so maybe they don't like this, but they don't trust us. And so we think it's bad for him, but maybe it reflects a weakness on us as well. By the same token, every image of Trump and talking about how we're going to liberate the city of Chicago and Kristi Noem saying they wouldn't let me do a deployment at a facility that I needed to get into is another moment where Trump is not talking about any issue that people cared about. this this poll had 75 of people saying trump is not focusing on lowering prices enough which is correct and like a pretty devastating problem for him that is not solved by more attention on these issues even if this issue is better for him than others yeah it's in some sense they may they might not care at least they're acting like they don't care right that the politics are bad they're just like forging right ahead i mean we're still you know it's important to debate politics in regard to like what democrats should do i think in the trump administration's mind they're like you know somewhat concerned about politics.

29:58Clearly, they want to win the midterms. But when you get to people like Stephen Miller, he's like, no, I just want to deploy force. Yeah, scare people. Like, I don't give a fuck about the politics. I really think that's what they think. For some of them, that's what they think. I also honestly think that they have a kind of deeper and smarter relationship to polling than a lot of Democrats do because they understand that you can lose on specific issues and specific questions for a long time while building up credibility in a broader way, in a deeper way that's harder to measure. And like, I just how have they not been validated by that over the years?

30:30So that's that's what I think is part of this. Yeah, it's going to take an election or two for them to at least some of them to register that this is not popular. Last thing before we get to the shutdown. Noem took the time on Friday to join MAGA's war against Bad Bunny as the Super Bowl halftime show, saying ICE will be, quote, all over the Super Bowl and not necessarily seeming to know that people from Puerto Rico, which Bad Bunny is from Puerto Rico, are American. and she shares that with many, many Trump supporters or Trump influencers. They just seem to not know that Puerto Rico is part of America and they think that Bad Bunny is not a U.S.

31:03citizen. It's like on some level, like they know it intellectually, but they can't feel it in their bones, right? They know it every time. It's in there. That's stupid. They know it, but they don't feel it. It doesn't feel true. There's also, there was a very funny, Shane Gillis, a comedian, his reaction to this, this whole latest culture war thing around Bad Bunny and the Super Bowl is quite funny. Let's listen. And I'll tell you what I'm mad about. Bad Bunny's doing the halftime show. That's good. Pissing me the fuck. No, of course. Of course. Who gives a fuck? It was very funny to me that people were upset about that.

31:33Everyone's on the right. The right gets it so wrong with what they're outraged. Everybody's outraged about everything, obviously. But when it's like, dude, don't lose on this one. Why are they mad about that? Who gives a fuck? I think it's because he doesn't speak any. Speak English. I'm trying to watch football, you fuck. it's like who does christy gnome think attends the super bowl she think it's a bunch of venezuelan migrants who left everything behind and just like made it to the united states there's like 10 grand sitting around to buy a ticket to go to a to go to santa clara to levi's stadium to go to the game like it's like this again this was all uh because of a question from that bozo benny johnson at tp USA to Christie Noem.

32:16It kind of like kicked off this manufactured culture war thing. And Benny suggested that the selection of Bad Bunny was clearly a shot at MAGA. It was a disrespect to MAGA and not the obvious answer, which is money. The NFL wants to grow the audience. So they had a big artist who might expand the number of people who watch the Super Bowl perform at the Super Bowl. That's so clearly what's happening here. And like bigger picture, though, like it's hard to imagine a more MAGA crowd than those who physically attend the Super Bowl. It's like football fans, rich people. Like if you're worried about crimes in that crowd, like get some dogs that can smell cocaine and then go bust people for solicitations.

32:57It's not going to be like a big ice raid event. Let's not say things will regret. I'm not going to the Super Bowl. The other thing here too is clearly a lot of xenophobia and racism in this movement. I don't also say there are plenty of, especially after 24, like prominent Latino Trump supporters now. And if the person performing at the Super Bowl was Latino and speak Spanish, but was like a big Trump fan, it would have been, you wouldn't hear anything. Bad Bunny has criticized ICE, has criticized Trump, ICE specifically. And so it is, it's like, if you are disloyal in any way, they cannot broach any criticism, any dissent whatsoever.

33:36And if there is, and it's a prominent person, then it is full war against those persons. They talked to Noah about this and I think Benny Johnson asked, what do you think about the NFL's decision? She says, they suck and we'll win. God will bless us and we'll stand and be proud of ourselves at the end of the day and they won't be able to sleep at night because they don't know what to believe. Jesus. They're so weak, we will win and fix it. This is about the NFL. What are you talking about? Calm down. It's like, what are you fucking, it's just a performer. A burning bush. I just, these people cannot - God will bless us.

34:11They cannot internalize the fact that they're winners. They're winners. Because it's grievance politics. And so they - That's, you know? They can't actually just say, like imagine Kristi Noem saying, I'm not a fan. He said some stuff I don't agree with, but the NFL is free to do what it wants. It wants. It's like, it's inconceivable for them at this point to like brook any kind of dissent. Like you say, all right, like the media is, you just got, you got CBS, you know, CBS belongs to you. You have Twitter. You have social media. You have a lot of, you have a lot of the NFL's fucking fans. There's a, there's a halftime show.

34:43Is there not one thing for the fucking gays and days? Just mute it. It's not Gaga. You know, you realize, you realize now there's going to be an alternative halftime show on fucking rumble or something. TPSA, there's some pitch that was going around of like TPSA having creed. Yeah. Well, I did see that. I thought Benny Johnson was going to do something for only the fans. He's going to do an only, something for only America fans. Something like that. Only fans of America. Something like that. Yeah. I'm out. I'm out. I don't know. I don't get it.

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36:58So the federal government's still closed, which is somehow only the second biggest story right now because of everything we just talked about. Since Alex and Dan covered it on the Friday pod, Republicans, Democrats in Congress have made no progress on negotiations to open the government, with Republicans maintaining their refusal to discuss Affordable Care Act subsidies until the government reopens. The White House has been trying to put pressure on Democrats by continuing to threaten mass layoffs of federal employees, though it's unclear when or if that will actually happen. They're also trying to like cut funding for, you know, blue areas of the country, whether it's apparently did you see the thing like law?

37:33They cut law enforcement in New York City. And then Trump is not aware of this. Yeah. And then Hochul, Governor Hochul called Trump and he's like, again, the filter. But he's like, oh, I didn't know this. And then and then he reversed it. So they're trying to cause all this trouble, hurt all these people. It's also unclear, though, whether Trump is not only on the same page as his staff, but on the same page as Republicans in terms of like whether they should negotiate with Democrats or are negotiating with Democrats. Here's what Trump said in the Oval on Monday about the shutdown. If the vote today fails in the Senate, will that trigger layoffs?

38:04It could. At some point, it will. Would you make a deal with them on the ACA subsidies? If we made the right deal, I'd make a deal, sure. I'd like to see a deal made for great health care. Yeah, I want to see great health. I'm a Republican, but I want to see health care much more so than the Democrats. Are you speaking with Democratic leaders? Well, I don't want to say that. I don't want to say that. But we are speaking with the Democrats and some very good things could happen with respect to health care. What do you want to bet? He was thinking about Hamas. Just confused the two. Just confused negotiations.

38:34To be a fly on the wall in Thune's office or Johnson's office when they saw that clip. Yeah, it's like, God, fucking damn it. Schumer responded by saying it isn't true that Democrats have been talking to Trump. Jeffrey said the same thing. But Schumer said that if the president is, quote, finally ready to work with Democrats, we'll be at the table. What do you think Trump was doing there? Typical stream of consciousness moment nonsense? Or do you think he might want to negotiate on health care more than Republicans in Congress? So first of all, it's funny to say that what page is he on? He's not on a page.

39:06That's the first he's all over the place. I will say like that. There's been a lot of debate about like, you know, are Democrats doing better in the shutdown that people expect? There's reasons for optimism, reason not to have optimism. This was the best reason for optimism I've seen, because whatever he's thinking, whatever is going on, he is feeling the politics. around a shutdown that is now over healthcare. And he's really helping making that true. He's acknowledging that. He said it because I think it's about healthcare. And that was part of it. We didn't get that part, but they first asked him, what do you think?

39:33He's like, I think the shutdown is about healthcare. Pretty valuable, pretty great. And it's also a reminder that like Trump is interested in Trump when that means standing shoulder to shoulder with Republicans in Congress, he will do that. If he views his interests as being different, he will ignore them, damage their position. He doesn't give a fuck. He doesn't have ideological commitments. He just wants a good deal and to seem like a winner and to have as many people behind him as possible. So that's what I took from that. Could it lead to anything? Well, immediately you have Johnson and Dune figuring out how to get out of this leading to anything.

40:04And then you have Schumer and Jeffrey saying, no, we're not talking to Trump, but saying they're open to it. So I assume once this conversation, once Trump was done talking, the phone was already on, it had already rung and it had already been walked back internally, at least. Yeah, I had sort of the same reaction you did. It's like, he wants to be the hero of every story. He does not want a huge cut to ACA subsidies that he thinks would hurt him politically in the midterm. He's not Paul Ryan. This guy hasn't been dreaming of cutting the social safety net since he was at the keg party or whatever that weird quote was from 2012.

40:32And so if Schumer and Jeffries could just talk to him directly and try to cut a deal, he would ice out Speaker Johnson in a heartbeat. But to our earlier conversation about his filter bubble and the people around him, the reason I think it's less likely to lead to anything is at what other point is he going to get information that Schumer and Jeffries want to make a deal, that the polling is really bad on health care, that it's time for him to do something. Stephen Miller is going to walk in there and all the rest of them. A Breitbart online poll of Twitter users or something. Jeffries and Schumer are going to have to do a paper drop like it's North Korea.

41:06They're trying to get information to Pyongyang. Set up giant speakers. Yeah, it's not long. You mentioned all the, you know, the back and forth, but like who's winning this? What did you guys make of the polling so far? There were some of these questions in the CBS poll. I would characterize the CBS poll results as like mixed to positive for Democrats. I think I characterize all the polling like that, but I don't know. What do you guys think? Here's what I think. I think the polling is good if you thought Democrats were going to be blamed the way Republicans were blamed in a previous shutdown.

41:33If you didn't come to it with that knowledge, I don't know. you'd feel super great about a poll that that says Trump, congressional Republicans and congressional Dems all are around 30 percent in their approval for other handling a government shutdown, like a poll where half the country thinks you're making a mistake. And by the way, only half of Democrats think your position is worth a shutdown. Like, I think that's better than it could be. And I think we're in a better position than we should be. And then Republicans should be at. But it's not like great. Yeah. I mean, the big takeaway is people don't like the shutdown.

42:01They're worried it will hurt the economy. A big majority is where it'll hurt the economy. I'm a little skeptical when you start comparing the kind of like under the hood numbers, like who do you blame? Because I just think most people like don't have an opinion on it, but it's a little better. Like the Democratic Party's rationale is a little better than Republicans. Nine points by about nine points, people blame Republicans over Democrats. So that's good. But then the thing that like in that poll that would worry me if I was Trump is 75 % of voters say you're not focused enough on lowering prices like that's that's bad yeah we know there are probably uh you know a handful if not more senate democrats who were worried about making this decision kind of thought they had to do it because the the base was mad i think if you're looking at the polling now you'd say at the very least it was right to uh say i'm not voting for this funding bill and now that we're in it now you gotta stick now you gotta stick to it right like so there's definitely nothing this polling that would tell me if I was a Senate Democrat to like cave anytime soon.

42:58So it is, I think, going well for them. I still and look, good thing if premiums don't go up for sure. Right. I think at best, you're not going to get a permanent extension. You're going to get an extension that is qualified with probably not as generous as it was. And then surely for the time, we'll probably like take them right past the midterms. I do have this fear that Democrats will have done the right thing, stand up, help people with health care. And then help Trump take it off the table. You know, honestly, we've tried losing on issues for a while. Maybe we try winning for once. It's better than losing.

43:30The other thing I would say, I would go further than just to say like, oh, Democrats shouldn't cave. You look at this, and we talked about it briefly earlier, but like, if you ask people, 64 % think Democrats are weak and 59 % think Republicans are extreme. Healthcare is an issue right now where if we hold the line, like we are painting Republicans as extreme. and if we cave, we are giving into the idea that we are weak. If we hold the line, there's an issue where we can prove our bona fides, say that we fought for something. Maybe we win, maybe we don't. But I would risk the benefits on policy plus like proving to people that we're willing to fight, take a stand and actually get something for people.

44:07Like, I think that is worth taking an issue off the table. Maybe that's bad politics. I don't think anybody knows, but given that nobody knows, wouldn't we rather like have a win than not? Am I wrong? I don't know. I agree with you. Yeah, I just don't see a path. I don't see a path to getting a win in this negotiation. I think that's the hard part. There's no end game that's clear here. And nut cutting time is coming on October 15th when 1.3 million members of the US military will miss a paycheck. Then November 1st is open enrollment for Obamacare. So there's a bunch of challenging moments where this could really go from a thing that's maybe you heard about on the news or saw on your TikTok to a thing that's messing up your life and making you really mad.

44:43Coming from the other direction, there's also the fact that these notices from insurance companies are going out too. So it could be, and you're sort of seeing this in the polling, that if you talk to the average person about whose fault it is, like, all of them. They're not. They suck. They all suck. And now the premium increases go out, and now the troops aren't getting paid. And the feeling in the public could be they have to negotiate and figure something out, which is probably good for Democrats getting something at that point as opposed to just caving. And then maybe the Republicans, if they're getting some of the blame too, then maybe Trump's like, you know what, guys?

45:14Just figure it out. just give him some kind of short extension and let's just call it because we don't want to get blamed. They're getting blamed. It's not helping anyone. Yeah, I also like... So that's the only... That's like my optimistic case, but I also take your point. Yeah, I don't think we know what the world's going to feel like a week from now. I would say right now, like there's a lot of alarms not going off. Like I am... Like Democrats feel like they're on offense. Republicans feel like they're on defense. That is like the feeling when you look at like the stories coming out of the lack of negotiation.

45:39You have Mike Johnson saying if a deal comes from the Senate side, we won't take it up, which is something you have to say to kind of like guard your flank against something coming out of the Senate. Like there's just Trump taking these questions and saying he's open to a deal. All of that puts Thune and Johnson on defense in a way that like I think is like, you know, shows Democrats playing a pretty weak hand better than you would have thought a week ago. So where will be a week? I have no idea. I think I think they should ask for more at this point. Oh, I mean, having seen I know I've made this point before, but it's just driving me nuts.

46:10having seen and maybe it's i'm just crazy but like having seen the last weekend unfold like there is a way i wouldn't even do it with the troops but it's just like ice should be able to go about and and do their jobs and do immigration enforcement but like you need warrants no more just like raiding fucking apartment buildings no flashbang grenades and militarized assaults like you you could put all this stuff there's plenty of ice reform proposals out there you can make you You could put it in a bill and demand that shit. And I get why they have not done that, but it is still really off to me that this is happening and then the funding fight is about healthcare.

46:46Yeah, I go, we've gone back and forth a million times, but I look at this and it's a core question, right? Do you want to pick a fight you have a possibility of winning or are you trying to pick a fight you cannot win because you think it's important for the long term? And right now, the Democrats chose, right? They chose the other. They chose the fight over something they could win. I, my view right now is play that to the end. Try to get a win on healthcare. Let's, let's prove to people we can fight and win. Like you look at what happens with Kimmel, right? There's all these, it's, there was a kind of almost organic protest and had a simple demand.

47:18Put Kimmel back. We'll have, we'll get Disney plus again. Right. And it's a win. And it shows people that we're a political force. We got Kimmel. Well, it's small. I know. The monologue continues. I know. But in the face of kind of like, kind of amorphous, I know. No, it's just sort of like we have to be a political force that has power and leverage. And that does mean like we're not just casting about for a kind of a years long fight. Like we're going to we're going to find a hinge and we're going to use it. And like to me, we've chosen that already. So let's play it out. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

47:47The other way that this could end that I feel like is being under discussed is if it keeps going and going and going, they just they change the rules and get rid of the filibuster. Yeah, they could do that again. Make my day. Yeah. Yeah. Go for it. Yeah. because you know what? We're never getting 60 votes in the Senate as long as we're living. Well, they've already eroded. So if we ever want to, if we ever take power again, we ever want to pass anything, we're going to need to get rid of the filibuster. So might as well do it for us. They're already eroding it bit by bit while claiming it's still there.

48:13Yes. Anyway. For sure. So the only way to start making real progress here is winning the House back in 2026. That would be at least the start of progress. And the first chance we get to help make that happen is actually just a month from now because here in California, we'll be voting on only one ballot measure in the 2025 off-year elections. Prop 50, which is Governor Newsom's initiative to temporarily suspend our nonpartisan congressional map so that Democrats can partially neutralize the partisan gerrymandering Trump ordered in states like Texas and Missouri to pick up more Republican seats.

48:45Ballots are already in the mail. Some of you, if you're in California, may have gotten yours already or if you're a registered voter in California. And the drop boxes to return those ballots open today, October 7th, when you're hearing this podcast. Early in-person voting starts on October 25th. What have you guys been seeing? How optimistic are you feeling? I mean, the Democrats, you've talked to the kind of Gavin orbit. They feel like they're winning the argument and that they're up, but they're very worried about voter suppression. That could be like Trump messing with the postmaster general about mail-in ballots, a community intimidation at the voting booths.

49:17The real X factor is there's a lawsuit in court right now challenging Texas's plan to redraw the maps, which is the reason Gavin is doing this in the first place. the thing, there's a scenario where the plaintiffs win a first judgment in that lawsuit that will almost certainly be overturned, but kind of complicates the argument because it looks like maybe Texas won't go forward during the period where Californians are voting. So that's all just a way of saying, if that happens, just know that like, it's almost certainly Texas is going to happen. It's going to happen. We might win like one step in the process, but we're going to lose long term.

49:53So we need to do this in California. So everyone vote yes on Prop 50, get your ballots in and do it soon. Yeah. And I would, yes, the polling has been reassuring, but also California is a big place that's hard to poll. And I like just worry about money coming in at the end. Yeah. A bunch of like a dark money, scary. Ton of mailers coming in. So I just saw a new coefficient poll. 54 % of California voters support the Prop 50, 36 % opposed and the, all the ad spending is having an effect too. 51 % said they were very familiar with Prop 50. And obviously Democrats currently have a big spending edge.

50:32That's good news. But also, again, it is a talk about not being able to model an electorate, an off year election where there's no statewide races, where there's, you know, candidates running for stuff. So you just have, and not even other ballot measures. So you have one ballot measure. So you have to remember, okay the ballot's coming i gotta fill it out what is prop 50 it's just you know it's tell your friends if you live in california tell your friends make sure you do it put on your calendar and tell at least five people in your life who live in california that this is coming because i think it's really really important one more thing the big focus of uh the prop 50 campaign is relational organizing basically just talking to friends and people in your network about the issue why they need to get out and vote for it you can get all the info you need on that at votesaveamerica.com slash prop 50.

51:17Tommy, I understand that you're hosting a VSA event next Wednesday, the 15th, where everyone's going to get together and reach out to their networks together. And that's in the Action Hub. We're all going to have relations. Stick with it. Stick with it. Stick around. You're the end. You'll find it. You'll understand. So you're going to get together and reach out to your networks together. What a cool way to talk about it. That's cool. Let's all ready. On the count of three, we're going to reach out to our networks. so what we're gonna do we're gonna hop on a live stream we're gonna have some fun uh-huh hang out we're gonna make it a good time we're gonna text our friends in california to make sure they're voting yes on prop 50 uh we know that friends family are the best messengers and you're doing this for the fans yeah and then uh only the fans only the fans and the cam will be on uh we're going to uh make sure everyone understands the stakes involved here uh-huh it'll be important What are you going to wear on your feet, you think?

52:13Sandals? Oh, okay. Shoes? That's exciting. Can I quickly plug my Riyadh comedy festival experience? Oh, yeah. Headlining. Khashoggi Night. It's good money. It's good money. Well, yeah, it's the anniversary. Anyway, jump on the Prop 50 live stream. It will be votesaveamerica.com slash Prop 50. It's really important. We got to do this. So reach out to your friends. Where are we on whether we have the chance to sort of counter Texas and other states? Yes. So I talked to our buddy, Brian Tyler Cohen, about all this because he is way deep on all things redistricting and subscribe to Brian's YouTube if you want to learn more.

52:44So the states that are screwing us right now, Texas and Missouri, if California redistricts to Indiana, Ohio and Florida are preparing to screw us. So get excited for that. We then Democrats could retaliate in Illinois and Maryland and then longer term New York and make some changes. But that wouldn't go into place until 2028. And then if we win the governor seats in Virginia and New Jersey, maybe we can do make some gains there And then there's the states that are kind of hoping this conversation goes away are Colorado, Oregon and Washington the dem governors They're just like Won't step up seemingly.

53:16So that's the state of play. I don't think it's a net benefit for us if all those Republican states go though also One one issue that's happening in California too is look redistricting is great But also states like California have been losing population to Texas and Florida and others and we can't redistrict our way out of California, not building enough affordable housing. And so I'm very glad Gavin is pursuing Prop 50. He has not yet signed as of this recording on Monday night, SB 79, which will allow people to build more housing near transit and help address our housing crisis. So if you're hearing this and you think Gavin Newsom should sign it, I would suggest posting about it or giving him a call because I do think it matters here in the home stretch.

53:52What's going on there? I haven't been following why there's been a pause and he hasn't signed it. So there's a lot of pressure, especially from LA, especially from our mayor, Karen Bass, who wants Newsom to veto it. She claims she's for affordable housing and we've got to build more housing. But this law will go too far and it doesn't allow for historical buildings and all these exceptions. Los Angeles currently is not even on track to build half of the housing we've promised to build the state. It's actually about a third. We said we'd build 456 ,000 units. We are nowhere near that. We are just completely failing.

54:24that we, I'll get the stats slightly wrong, but we've seen the lowest number of housing starts and construction in Los Angeles in more than a decade. We're just, the city is failing and does not deserve the trust. And, but he's under a lot of pressure. Look, I think prop 50 fighting Trump, those are unifying and galvanizing issues. This is a slightly divided issue because this is about taking on parts of your own coalition and saying, you know what? I get that there are problems. It's not a perfect law, but we've got to - Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson. Yeah. Right. All the, abundance. All the fascists.

54:54But like, yeah, there are there are there are there are there are democratic interests that want this to be vetoed. And so the goal is not just from to sign it. I believe he will sign it is to sign it unequivocally without any kind of using bureaucracy to limit it anyway. And that that that to me is what is important. And it's actually, I think, an important test for him because like, oh, great, you're tough when you're fighting Trump. Like we need somebody that not just doesn't just want to fight Trump, but understands that Democrats have to like be willing to take on our own to like actually do hard governing.

55:22You might think it's progressive to make sure that every person can have a roof over their head in this country. But I think it's progressive to keep those historic buildings preserved just right and maybe have just a little bit bigger yard. First they came for the historic buildings. And to make sure just, you know, a little extra yard. And I don't want, I just don't want a tall building next to my train tracks because then it's just too much. Historic parking lots. You got to preserve these historic parking lots. You know what's progressive? A beautiful view. It's progressive. It's been infuriating.

55:54And like, and Karen Bass. Fucking Nimbies. Karen Bass, who has like, I would say like a mixed record on housing. She signed some good EOs. Then she watered them down. Like she's done some stuff. Some of the best, some of the building that is happening in Los Angeles is beyond some of these affordable housing executive orders she signed. But still like, this is such an abdication. The city council, most of them, Nithia and others did vote. against the city council, which was great. But they are just completely abdicating their responsibility and hoping somebody else solves it. This is the way to solve it.

56:22He has to fucking sign the thing. So that and also Prop 50. And if you want more info about Prop 50, votesaveamerica.com slash Prop 50. You can go get all kinds of information that'll help you go, you know, try to get as many friends as possible voting the same way. OK, after the break, you'll hear Tommy's conversation with Ben Smith about Barry Weiss taking over CBS News and lots more. Two things before we get to that. You may have heard that Crooked Con sold out faster than we ever expected. So big news. We decided to move to a bigger location. And that means more panels, more guests, and more tickets.

56:53The new venue is the Ronald Reagan Building. You know, I don't think... It's honestly a dream for me to be in the Reagan Building. I feel like it would have been funnier 10 years ago to have us in the Reagan Building. Now the Reagan Building seems like a potential natural ally for this movement. The port in a storm. Yeah, win one for the Gipper. The most scorching opinion about Trump so far just came from a Reagan judge, a judge appointed by Reagan last week. So, yeah, of course, makes sense. Your favorite Crooked podcast host will be there. Plus, Ruben Gallego, Andy Beshear, Janelle Bynum, Sarah McBride, Yasaman Ansari, Anderson Clayton, Sarah Longwell, Hassan Piker, Maurice Mitchell, lots more.

57:32The full list is up at Crooked.com. We'll be announcing even more great guests soon. We're adding a Vote Save America Action Hub, a space where our partner groups will be hanging out and focusing on activism. so you can leave with the tools you need. Action hub. Action hub. What kind of action? Doing karate? I don't think it's going to be. What are you thinking? Oh, I was talking about intercourse, Tommy. I was talking about fucking. That's what I was saying. You know where the action hub's going to be? His hotel room. Those pants. That's where the action hub is. And you know where it's what it says right here.

58:02With all these panels? It says right here you can leave with the tools. You need to fight democracy. That's right. There you go. Head to cricketcon.com before this last batch of tickets disappears and we'll see you at the Action Hub on November 7th in D.C. Also, become a friend of the pod. It's important. It's fun. Independent media is more important than ever right now. You know, Tommy's talking to Ben Smith about Barry Weiss and CBS and all the ways that corporate media has let us down. Here we are, independent media. Help support us. For the month of October only, you'll get 20 % off when you subscribe for a full year.

58:35Is that a spooky sale? a deal so good is spooky that's a good one check out love or leave it ad free imagine all the extra jokes you'll hear monthly subscribers can upgrade and annual subscribers can renew at the discounted rate you've got all your Crooked Pods ad free access to our Discord community bonus content like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer designed to help you make sense of the midterms the 20 % discount is this month only head to crooked.com slash friends to sign up or upgrade now You play polar coaster at the Action Hub, you know? Yeah, hey. And Lovett, you have an announcement? Yes, there is a new series that just launched today on the Love It or Leave It feed.

59:15It is called, for legal reasons, Love It or Leave It Presents, colon, Bravo America. I'm interviewing some of the biggest icons in reality TV. That starts with Dr. Terry Dubrow of Botched and the Swan and Real Housewives of Orange County. I have obviously been turning off my brain at night and watching Bravo and other reality shows. And I do think you really can't understand politics in this moment unless you understand the world of these shows and why it is more important to be interesting and hated than boring and good. And - Any insurrections? None so far. But so Dubrow is really interesting and he talks about how the parts of filming Bravo shows including Real Housewives that he fucking hates.

1:00:04And he's pretty shockingly honest about his take on some of the Real Housewives, which was interesting. But more than that, like this series is about figuring out reality TV, how it changed TV, and then how it changed our culture, and then how it changed politics. It actually, one of the reasons I wanted to do it is because when we talked to Sarah McBride, remember she talked about feeling as though these Republicans want to be on a Bravo show? And obviously Trump is a reality star. I'm also one as well, famously. Of course. Shine bright. Stars. I feel like I'm stretching the term. Some stars.

1:00:37Guest star. Guest star. Also featuring. We have Terry Dubrow, who is great. I talked to Dorinda Medley. I talked to Parvati Shallow, who gave me some tips about how to do better on Survivor. For next time? Bad tips. And there'll be many others. Some we haven't announced. Well, I can't do worse. I can't do fucking worse. It's on the Love It or Leave It feed right now. I am very excited about these conversations. They were, every single time we finish one, like the producer and I have been like amazed by what we've been hearing from some of these people about what it's like to be on these shows and what they've learned.

1:01:11And so please check it out. Cool. Cool.

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1:01:54Look, we all wish that Donald Trump had seen a therapist just one time. He would have saved us. boy so much trouble we might not be here you probably wouldn't be a rich guy invested in the s &p in the 70s or in the 1970s and was richer than you ever could have imagined but anyway we live in this reality so that's why you need a therapist better help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the u.s better help does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapy goals a short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences in their 10 years of experience an industry-leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time.

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1:03:04My guest today is the editor-in-chief of Semaphore and the co-host of the excellent Mixed Signals podcast. He's also a man who tends to be on the bleeding edge of changes in the media business. Ben Smith, great to see you. Thank you for having me, Tommy. So on Monday, Barry Weiss was named the new editor-in-chief of CBS News. and Paramount, CBS's parent company, bought her startup, The Free Press, for$150 million in cash and stock. My first question to you is the question that everyone is asking, Ben, which was how much do we think Barry cleared off this deal? Do you know what her ownership stake was by the end here?

1:03:38You know, I don't, but I would say that the nature of these deals is usually they don't just say, here's a pile of money, buy. They say, if you work really hard for us for a period of four, five, ten years, we will compensate you gradually in stock. So, like, I would say whatever the actual terms of the deal, I would think this is a pretty long-term arrangement. Like, I think Barry West will be there for a long time. Yeah, it struck me as an acqui-hire, which is basically they're purchasing her entire company to get her to work there. You're right, she probably did have a long earn out, but I bet she did okay off it.

1:04:11Yes. Next time you see her, you should make her buy dinner. Okay, that's what I will do. I've never met her, but I will do that. So help me understand why this hire makes sense for CBS. As far as I know, Barry Weiss has no TV news experience. Her print experience was more on the opinion side. I find CBS News to be kind of like the textbook example of the just the facts, ma 'am, kind of old school journalism. But she has been better known, I think, recently at least for more activism, for being kind of anti what she views as woke, for being a full-throated defender of Israeli government policies.

1:04:43So why do you think CBS decided she's the person we need? Well, I would say there's a couple of different things here. One is, I don't know if you are a regular viewer of the CBS Evening News. If you are, you are very unusual for our age group. But like, you know, CBS is a broadcast television network that for complicated reasons kind of missed out on cable and then kind of also missed out on digital. So this is the Titanic well after it has hit the iceberg in a place that has been in a kind of state of real crisis and decline for many, many years. So it's not like, I mean, so I don't really, the idea that these guys were just doing fine and these maniacs are coming and changing everything, what are they doing?

1:05:23It's ridiculous. I mean, I think CBS is sort of a poster child for a company that really failed to figure out the digital transition, lost most of its value and is getting swallowed by some billionaire's kid. which is at a discount as a result. And that's true of CBS News, which is a tiny, tiny portion of a bigger company that is now called Paramount, that includes all sorts of other things that used to have a lot of value. And Sherry Redstone, who owned it, managed it gradually downward over a period of years. And so in the new ownership, David Ellison, whose dad is one of the richest guys in the world, Larry Ellison, I think both seem authentically to share various politics, which are, I don't know if you'd call them center right.

1:06:08They're eclectic. They're very pro-Israel. Very, very upset about the direction the media took in the last few years. And, you know, and I think Allison obviously kind of shares those to some degree. And CBS News, by the way, is a single-digit percentage of the business of CBS, which is mostly the movie business. And Allison has spent his career in the movie business. And then people say, you know, the news is like 4 % of the revenue and 95 % of the headaches of these businesses. But, too, this is like kind of one of the first big splashy things he's doing is bringing in Barry as the editor-in-chief, not the president.

1:06:45A new title as editor-in-chief of CBS News to direct the editorial back to the center. That probably is what the owners want in terms of their own political views. Although that's not going to like rescue a dying broadcast operation. It also comes at a time Donald Trump loves to rage against these networks, is very focused on CBS and others, and feels that they've treated him unfairly, already extracted a big settlement for them. And I think this is a company that's looking for another wave of regulatory approval to buy Warner Media. And doing things that Donald Trump likes seems like a pretty good way to get regulatory approval.

1:07:24And honestly, I think if you told one of these companies they could pay 100, 150 million bucks to make a big deal go through faster, they probably would. Yeah, like I'm with you on the problem and certainly wasn't suggesting that like CBS, everything was going perfectly. I guess I'm just still not there on the solution. Like is Barry Weiss viewed as like a Trump whisperer that can get, you know, deals through the FCC or whatever, right? A lot of the reporting is focused on kind of coverage about Israel generally being a big point of tension between the new ownership and, let's say, 60 Minutes.

1:07:58But I can't tell how central this is to the acquisition itself. Yeah, there are a lot of different things going on here. And I think that's what you're seeing, which is CBS has one problem, which is its business is collapsing. That's not because of where it stands on Israel. They're CBS News and, in fact, isn't going to be fixed by tweaking their political stance because it has to do with the fact that they're a broadcast television network with a massive cost structure. There's also people – and I think there is also a sense of like it will please Donald Trump to stick it to the old – the people at CBS, whoever they are.

1:08:33And that probably is a good way to – if it seems like they're giving some kind of human sacrifice to Donald Trump in order to get regulatory approval, that doesn't – I don't know. In the cynical world of big media, that seems like a decent idea. Yeah. Do you have a prediction for how it's going to go? Any sense of how this is being received internally? I mean, CBS, it's like – I don't know if you've ever worked at one of these institutions which has been rocked by scandal after scandal and leak after leak for longer than you've been alive. but everything always goes badly there. The only story, so, and I think people underestimate the extent to which like, yeah, like she, you know, she is being given the job, maybe not as captain of the Titanic but as first mate post-iceberg and like, that's a very, very challenging situation and I don't know, we should all be rooting for them to succeed because I think the most natural thing here is that they cease to exist.

1:09:26Like just, that's the course that they've been on for a long time. Yeah, no, look, I want CBS News to succeed generally. I really had not thought of it that way. This is being first mate or captain on an iceberg that are in a ship hitting an iceberg. That does suck. When Barry Weiss quit the New York Times, she cited bullying by colleagues. She said the New York Times had become an illiberal environment. She said there was a quote, civil war inside the New York Times between the mostly young wokes and the mostly 40 plus liberals. You worked at the New York Times from 2020 to 2022. Was it illiberal?

1:09:55Was Michael Barbaro bullying you in the lunchroom? Like what was the scene there? So it was, A, look, there was no lunchroom. It was all Slack, which did make it certainly totally insane. And, you know, I guess I knew Barry there at the time. And I think maybe I didn't take these things as personally. Like I think, you know, people react to things differently. But I do think, you know, the Slack became some rough equivalent of Twitter. And I do think the culture was more dominated by younger people who were more comfortable on social media. And sometimes really did take on some of the crazier features of social media.

1:10:28Like there was a 2000 person. I wasn't allowed in most of the Slack because I wrote about the New York Times. And so like I got tossed out of Slacks. And Taylor Lorenz created a Slack called Ben Chat where people could come talk to me. But there was one giant Slack with everybody in it. And that was the one where when James Bennett, there was a controversy that I feel like we don't need to revisit involving the opinion editor. But people were reacting. You can react with emojis and people were reacting with guillotines. Oh, boy. Like intended ironically perhaps, but I would not say that as collegial.

1:10:58And at some point somebody complained to the executive editor, Dean Bacay, that my being in the Slack made people unsafe because I might write about it. And he, I thought, quite reasonably. And this is a sense of like – I don't think – it was not totally homogenous culture. He told them that's ridiculous. This is a Slack with 2 ,000 people in it. Of course it's going to leak. but yeah I mean I guess I think that maybe I don't have as think it was quite that straightforward but certainly there was the kind of like left-wing political waves and social waves swept through there swept through all of society and I do think it was pretty yeah I think it was I think the management has spent the last couple years pushing that back it's interesting I mean look at what I'm taking what I'm inferring from your your very delicate answer is that you saw some illiberalness You saw some cruelty maybe in this.

1:11:49Like, it's just interesting with some people that radicalizes them. And then there's people like Matthew Iglesias over at Vox who kind of just tweets through the most vicious attacks on a daily basis. It seems impervious to it. Doesn't, you know, kind of just like does his thing regardless and just has a very different reaction. Yeah, and I think if you've spent a lot of your career being attacked by strangers on the internet, as I have, you develop like a kind of pathologically thick skin to it. But I don't think you can actually expect other people to act that way. Like that's not normal. If your colleagues are being mean to you, like probably you hate it and you're going to quit.

1:12:26Like I don't think that's an unreasonable reaction. No, I don't think it is either. I'm a huge baby and, you know, I've had exchanges on Twitter ruined an entire weekend. And my wife looking at me like, why aren't you parenting our children right now? Are you really in a fight about the JCPOA with someone with like a Twitter egg? And I'm like, yeah, that's actually who I am. That's who he married. So I'm sorry about that. But I do think like the question you asked for like what is – like what is – I think what this means, like what is Barry's role at CBS? And he's like very – I don't think it's decided.

1:12:56I think it's very open to interpretation. I think it a lot depends, you know, in particular on how they decide to cover Donald Trump. Because I talked to somebody who was involved in the deal and who was very aware that they're just now dealing with this shadow of this sense that, well, like, oh, they've made some secret corrupt deal with the president in exchange for, you know, to get regulatory approval for their real business, which is the movie business, the entertainment business, in exchange for favorable coverage on this tiny little news thing that they have to own. And how do you deal?

1:13:26And I asked them, like, well, how do you deal with that impression? And they said, well, we're just going to have to cover Trump really. We have to be really tough and adversarial and do great journalism that the White House doesn't like when that's fair. And I think that is ultimately the test. Yeah, well, you're right. And we should not prejudge her tenure there. It is challenging, though, because it comes in the wake of some major departures at 60 minutes and a pretty high profile dust up over, you know, that show feeling like they were being censored by corporate execs and then the lawsuit and caving to Trump.

1:13:56So a tough, challenging time to go into that job, like you said earlier. You have a great column out this week in Semaphore about Donald Trump's information filter and sort of information bubble. Can you explain how Trump's information diet has changed from the first term to today and why that might have some of his supporters a little worried? Yeah. I mean, one thing about the White House, and you worked there and you know this, is that just inevitably the president is a little bit a prisoner of the building, a prisoner of what kind of information he's getting, who's talking to him. Like Eisenhower, Nixon's aides were referred to as the Berlin Wall because they were German, Haldeman and Erlichman, and they wouldn't let anybody through.

1:14:33But in any case, Trump in his first term, like almost uniquely among presidents, like totally busted out of that and was just on Twitter engaging everyone. He was like reading like the rage bait from you. He was like soaking up the adulation from his fans. But he was just seeing the same stuff everybody else was on Twitter. And now I think actually sort of like everybody else, he's retreated into much more comfortable spaces, in his case Truth Social, where he sometimes goes on these sprees of like re-truthing really weird memes and where he posts stuff and where he sees adulation. And he's also – he does watch TV, mostly Fox.

1:15:11Fox is more sort of consistently pro-Trump than it was in his first term. And there's also these other right-wing networks he can watch. He does, you know, he reads the papers, he reads the New York Post and other papers. But I think people around him, both people who like him and don't like him have started to think like, oh, maybe he's not seeing everything. There was this odd instance where he had talked to the governor of Oregon and he got off the phone and said, yeah, you know, she said one thing to me and I've been seeing this other thing on TV and hearing things from my staff. I'm like, I'm not really sure what's going on.

1:15:42And then I saw the other day that Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York, I guess told him that the federal government had cut off funding to New York and that was news to him. And I think in some sense the biggest question is like what is he hearing about the economy and like how good is the information he's getting? And I think that's – I mean, I didn't like – I don't really know. But basically the core of this situation is that there's an aide named Natalie Harp who follows him around with an iPad and that people who really, really, really want to get his attention, particularly in the conservative movement, have her number and text her things and hope that she will go then play the video to him.

1:16:17And that's like the key, key gatekeeping function. God help us all. I mean, yeah, he tweeted this video the other weekend or the other week about med beds. I don't know if you tracked this controversy. It's this like QAnon thing. It's this made up technology. Yeah, I was assuming that's why you looked so ageless, Tommy. Yeah, it's a filter. So that's Barbara Walters' filter. Medbeds, like basically they think it's alien technology that's being hidden by elites that could cure every disease. All of a sudden Donald Trump like tweets or truths this AI video that AI renders his own voice of a made up technology.

1:16:51And I would just kill for some deep reporting into how on earth that actually happens. Like how does that go from creation to his feed to shared? You know, I think he's just on truth social seeing memes. And if you look through, he's like re-truthing some like really terrible memes that like I think he's just seeing like, oh, here's somebody who likes me saying something nice. And I assume that's what the MedBed thing was. It seemed vaguely positive. It said that he was giving everybody special MedBed cards. So like – but I don't know. When you were in the White House, did you – like how did you think about kind of controlling President Obama's access to information?

1:17:22Well, he famously kept his BlackBerry, right? That was sort of an early battle he won to get information. I think he certainly would go on at night and whenever a mean David Brooks column would post, Dan Pfeiffer would get an email being like, we need to deal with this or whatever. The other way he spent a lot of time was playing words with friends with Reggie Love and other people. So he had his own ways sort of getting around us. But you're right. Like when you're president, I'd say it's all your jokes are funny. Everything you say is brilliant. People stand up when you walk in the room. So that's got to just kind of fuck with your thinking, whether you're Donald Trump or anybody else.

1:17:57Yeah, and I do think in a weird way this is a return to a more traditional kind of presidency where he is trapped in an information bubble. Yeah, and probably more so than before, right, given the security challenges that come from multiple assassination attempts. But didn't he used to hate watch TV all the time? Like I feel like he used to routinely tweet about Morning Joe. Yeah, he used to hate watch more because I think there was like – it was just Fox and then a bunch of stuff he hated. But now he's got OAN and Newsmax and all sorts of stuff on social that he can watch. And once in a while, like a Democratic senator, like, made their way onto Fox yesterday morning and he freaked out about it on Truth Social and demanded that they not let Brian Schatz back on there to lie about him.

1:18:36But I think that actually almost is an indication of what you said, that, like, he's not rage tweeting the sort of – he's not hate watching anymore. And in a way, like, I mean, I guess it seems like he is all of us, right? Like the sort of experience of the media between 2015 and 2020 was that this social media machines were so good at finding the worst thing that the people you dislike had said and just like shoving it in your face. And the new TikTok world is that like, no, you just get like pleasing stuff that affirms your prejudices all day. That's right. Yeah. The biggest surprise in your piece, by the way, was seeing Laura Loomer, of all people, kind of talking about Trump's information diet and sounding like a voice of reason.

1:19:19She's very concerned. Is she really? OK, for those who don't know who Laura Loomer is, she's like a far right nut, in my opinion. She once tweeted an applauding emoji over an article about 2000 migrants dying while trying to cross from North Africa to Europe. She chained herself to the Twitter office door in New York while wearing a yellow star of David to compare herself to the treatment of Jews in the Holocaust. My point being, it doesn't always – sometimes seems like she's got to screw loose. But she was – seemed reasonable there. How did that come to be? I think she is somebody who thinks a lot about how you get information to Donald Trump and has seen herself boxed out a bit by White House staff, although she finds her ways to get to him directly.

1:20:01I mean but the one thing is it used to be that like influencers like right wing influencers who had like a really good fastball could just sort of like get in front of him by tweeting stuff and like getting retweeted and going viral. And now you have to be like the only two people I think can really do it just because by just absolute like intensity and velocity and saying such intense stuff on social media are her and the kind of MAGA legal figure Mike Davis who denounces judges very heatedly. And I think that stuff makes its way to him. But I think the rest of the sort of right wing Twitter sphere is like really having trouble kind of making their way into Trump's personal consciousness.

1:20:41Bigger picture. Like a couple of weeks ago, we were all talking about ABC News and Jimmy Kimmel. Kimmel got pulled off the air. And then FCC chairman Brendan Carr made all these threats that he would hurt the network or we could do it the easy way or the hard way if Kimmel wasn't punished for comments he made about Charlie Kirk. Kimmel's now back on the air. But Trump threatened to sue ABC again. And now that the dust has settled a little bit, what do you think the impact was of that whole ordeal? Are networks rethinking things or it's just – I don't know. I mean I just think that the big kind of corporate media executives are really wary of angering the president.

1:21:14They're thinking about it all the time. And it's a matter – it's not that they wouldn't ever do anything, publish an accurate, important story that didn't make the White House happy. But it's that they're thinking about picking your battles. and this really is familiar to any journalist who's worked in like complicated places i mean i think you know for instance if you're you know major i once talked to somebody who'd been a correspondent for a great newspaper in tehran and like you kind of know at some point you're going to get booted right because you're going to write a story that angers the regime but so you think like all right like is this one worth it like this is kind of a dumb story about somebody's family being corrupt like let's skip this one let's wait for the one that really you know that really gets them and so in situations like this you just start to pick your battles and decide Look, we're not going to do this story about the president's family.

1:21:59It's going to annoy him. Let's wait till we – and it does change the shape of the coverage. It means that there's less criticism. I think the other thing that happened at ABC, though, was that I think you saw that there are these other stakeholders in these companies who they have to deal with too. And in particular for ABC, it's A-list actors and directors. And they're for Disney. And I think you saw that. You saw – I don't think it ever really was a public protest, but people clearly called up Bob Iger and said, hey, we're going to start pulling movies. We're going to publicly refuse to work with you.

1:22:29And these media companies are very, very, very dependent on talent, and talent does have leverage. Yeah, you got to imagine Iger was getting some rude texts from some real A-listers over that weekend. Seems like it. Yeah. Final question for you. I just don't think Democrats have fully internalized kind of what the new media landscape looks like. Like we have, you know, Barry Weiss leading CBS News, TBD, if that matters or not. But Elon Musk owns Twitter. A group of Trump allies are going to run TikTok. Fox News is not just the dominant cable player, but like the dominant news channel, period. And then I think conservatives, I mean, tell me if you disagree, but they seem to be dominating the independent media world and the podcast charts.

1:23:08There's not necessarily a question there. It's more just like an observation of how grim things seem for progressives. Well, I actually think that, I mean, if you look at the sort of new media charts, you're starting to see left-wing voices dominate more. I mean, like Midas is, I think, often the biggest channel on YouTube. And it follows to some degree where's the most engagement, where's the most energy. And, you know, I think a lot of these, particularly a lot of the really kind of independent podcast sphere is really built around this like profound suspicion of power, but also of government and of truth and of anything.

1:23:41And you saw with the Epstein stuff that there's just this like intense tendency to eat their own. But no, I think there's a real kind of like conservative control of the mainstream media now. And it's not exactly MAGA conservatives. I think people like David Ellison and Jeff Bezos are kind of, I don't really know what their politics are, kind of like center, I guess it's what you'd call center right. And probably, but, you know, I don't really know. But I think that like the thing that is, actually, I think there are two things. One is that you have people with right of center views owning and running some of these media properties.

1:24:13But I think the much more important thing is you have people who are scared of the government and of Trump making decisions. Definitely. Lots of scared people making decisions for financial reasons. Ben, thank you for joining the show. Everyone should check out Semaphore and subscribe to the Mixed Signal podcast. It's excellent. Who do you guys have recently? You had the new head of MSNBC. Yeah, we had the new CEO of Versant, which owns MSNBC. and he spent the whole time talking about how he wants to buy Crooked. So watch out, everybody. Come on in. I'll be your Barry, sir. Whatever it takes. Ben, thank you again.

1:24:47Great to talk to you. Yeah, good talking to you.

1:24:54That's our show for today. Thanks to Ben Smith for coming on. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday.

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