1071: Trump's Gaza Ceasefire Takes Hold

24:41He can be, you can pardon someone preemptively. Now that is an attack on the rule of law, but it's something that's happened here. Like, it would be unprecedented for an Israeli president to pardon a prime minister before he's even been convicted of a crime. Yeah, it would be disgusting. So, okay. And also that. So let's look internally. We don't make this all about American politics, obviously. It's just an enormous moment in the world. But I'm curious, like, we've seen this huge shift in U.S. support from Israel over the last two years, especially within the Democratic Party. Does Gaza, does a ceasefire in Gaza change that?

25:18Is this inexorable? Are there too many broader structural challenges like the need for a Palestinian state sort of standing in the way? You know, it's not, it mirrors what we were just talking about. The way Israel conducted this war has done so much damage to its standing amongst American Jews, among the American left. You see it in the way in which anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism have a blurry line between them in a way that is like very disconcerting for Jewish people, especially Jewish people who are appalled by what Israel has done in this war. At the same time, you see groups like the Anti-Defamation League use anti-Semitism like a cudgel against people with legitimate criticism.

25:56And all of that has turned what was an issue that was pretty broadly felt, which is support for Israel's right to exist now kind of in question. And I don't know what happens from here, but I do think it starts with American Jews being able to hold two ideas in their mind at the same time, which is that Israel absolutely has a right to defend itself, but it does not have a right to commit atrocities. And that an Israel that does not protect human rights of Palestinians is an Israel that is not safe, an Israel that is an Israel that is a pariah. And so that if you believe in Israel's right to exist, if you want to have a safe and prosperous Israel, you have to advocate against its conduct of the war and in going forward a different kind of leadership in that country.

26:42And so that's where I'm at on this. And, uh, but I do think like a lot will depend, I think on what happens in Israel and also what happens with any plan to rebuild Gaza. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of talk about, uh, Israel's political problems in the U S is, is purely partisan, but I think it's more generational. You know, I think it's like people under 40, they've only seen Bibi Netanyahu running the country and they've seen him, his corruption, his racism, the, the, the fighting in Gaza, the lack of accountability. And they wonder, why does the U.S. have to funnel arms to this country? Why am I paying to bomb a kid in the Gaza Strip?

27:21Like there is an older generation of Americans that was raised at a different time, in a different era, a different generation of leadership in Israel that views Israel very differently. It's like when you'd always hear Joe Biden talk about Golda Meir and this like, you know, beacon of democracy and hope in the Middle East in this, you know, like, the story of this, like, mighty little country, right? Like, fighting off its opponents. But I think younger people, like, just see it very differently. And I think, you know, you mentioned earlier, like, the tactic, like, the ADL and other groups have taken to try to silence debate, I think has been really damaging.

28:00I do too. And by the way, like, if it's alienated me, like, I'm sorry, but I'm, I'm like, I gotta be in the place where you're going to want. Like, I feel like I am extremely critical of Israel. I am extremely critical of people that are knee jerk, anti-Israel and who's and who do not see enough of a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. I have like pretty clear in believing Israel has a right to defend itself. I hold Hamas responsible. And then it like I see the way in which they go after Mamdani in a completely bad faith way and how when he goes and meets with Jews, it's not the right Jews for the ADL.

28:40I see a lot of shit like that. I find it very, I just think it's counterproductive because it turns people who have legitimate, it makes opponents of people who have real and valid questions about Israel. And you want those people, right? Including, by the way, a lot of Jews, a lot of Jews, especially younger Jews who do not understand how their parents feel about it, do not understand this. And you go, there is a lot of talking past each other, right? Because they go to the story of like Israel founded, you know, and that it is a bastion of Jewish safety in the aftermath of the Holocaust. It is a place where Jews expelled by Arab countries came to find safety.

29:19But that is an old story. It's an old story. And an old story about Israel's founding because of the Holocaust is not going to help us any more than an old story about how Israel is some colonialist project is going to help us. How does Israel conduct itself now? How does it defend itself in a way that upholds a basic defense of human rights now? That to me is what matters. Yeah. And just like doing this broad brush thing, we're telling everyone that like all anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism is wrong. or like passing BDS laws across the country that essentially make speech illegal? Like, why is it that people like you and I can be more critical of the U.S.

30:01government than the Israeli government in certain settings? And like, by the way, it's not just you and me like having this conversation. It was Charlie Kirk and Megyn Kelly had nearly an identical conversation about their frustration with being screamed at or called anti-Semitic if they didn't agree with, you know, 100 % of like Netanyahu's lines. And I just think like that's such a bad way to do politics. You're just going to turn people off. Yeah. And by the same token, like there is a lot of like kind of I hear it all the time. It's a very easy thing now to be like, oh, you know, it's because they're in the pocket of APEC.

30:34APEC often described as kind of a foreign involvement in the U.S. when it's funded by American Jews becomes about like Jewish money. And like they're like clearly that is it. That is a thread of anti-Semitism that exists on the right as well that I think is really dangerous. And at the same time, like the, because being anti-Israel became almost like a shibboleth in certain parts of the left, it became so kind of almost casual for people to be chanting things like from the river to the sea and other kind of expressions that while those who say them might claim are not violent or don't speak to violence.

31:07It is kind of a, uh, uh, like a, a kind of abstracted idea that just, that if you were to follow to its conclusion would require what? All Israelis to leave a massive, terrible, and violent conflict, whatever it might be. But it's like, Israelis are there. The Palestinians are there. They all deserve dignity, peace, and human rights. And like everything after that, you know, I don't know. Yeah, it's just, it feels like the two-state solution is very far off. And for all the concern, you know, you and I might have about criticism of Israel veering anti-Semitism or tropes. Then you also have Donald Trump speaking for the Knesset, giving Miriam Adelson a shout out, talking about how she's worth$60 billion and how she was the one who got him to move the embassy or to think about the Golan Heights.

31:52And you're just like, oh my God, this is like, we're on another planet right now. By the way, also says to her, like, I don't know if she likes Israel or America more, right? Which by the way, like, like the, and I know it's like, well, you know, he, he's because, because Donald Trump is on the right and, and kind of seen as like an ally of Netanyahu, He can make jokes that are basically about dual loyalty, which is exactly like I don't care what he means or what he thinks. I don't care. Like like that is a that's fucked up. Yeah, it's really bad. OK, well, good, healthy Gaza section. We are going to take a turn, though, because Trump, he's over there playing peacemaker in the Middle East.

32:27But back at home, he's pressing ahead with sending troops into our cities and having ICE unleash violence on immigrants and protesters. On Saturday, the Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit ruled that National Guard troops could remain federalized in Illinois, but they maintain for now a lower court's ruling that blocks the troops from being deployed to Chicago streets. But if Trump's plan was to inflame tensions here, he is succeeding. The Times had a great look at how things have escalated just in the past month to the point where agents in tactical gear are firing tear gas and projectiles at reporters and peaceful protesters, including notoriously a pastor.

32:59A federal judge imposed new temporary rules on force last week, but it's not clear that they're taking hold. On Friday morning, an employee of the Chicago TV station WGN, a woman who is a U.S. citizen who is not part of the news department, was tackled and pinned to the ground by masked Border Patrol agents during a terrifying neighborhood raid that was caught on video. But this might not all be enough for Trump, as J.D. Vance suggested to NBC's Kristen Welker on Sunday. Are you seriously considering invoking the Insurrection Act? Well, the president's looking at all of his options. The problem here is not the Insurrection Act or whether we actually invoke it or not.

33:33The problem is the fact that the entire media in this country, cheered on by a few far-left lunatics, have made it okay to tee off on American law enforcement. So the media is the problem, Levitt, not the troops in the streets. It's, um, there is a point that he's making that I do. like there is this strange thing that seems to happen where Trump does some kind of escalation. He is just sending troops into Portland or Chicago. He's trying to defy court orders by kind of getting around the order by getting troops from California to Chicago and Texas to Portland, whatever he's trying to do. Meanwhile, you've got mass ICE agents on the streets.

34:14They are backed up by members of the military, this like unprecedented effort against the wishes of state and local leaders. And then all of a sudden the question is, but is he going to do the insurrection act? What about the insurrection act? He's going to do the next one. What about the next one? As if like, that's the most important question. Like Vance isn't wrong about that. That isn't the most important question. Whether or not he invokes the insurrection act to send troops into American cities or continues to have American troops on our streets protecting ICE, like both are very bad. Both are very dangerous.

34:45Why are they wearing masks? Why are they there? I think, you know, all of these are the more important questions. I think whether or not he does the insurrection act, it's a pretty damn big escalation though, right? I mean, it's something you have like members of the U.S. military, active members conducting law enforcement, like imprisoning people, zip tying American citizens, throw them in jail. Like that'd be, it is an escalation. And he's like, oh, well, the media is at fault. I think it is an escalation. Of course, it's an escalation. I think it's very dangerous. Do I think like members like you have ICE, which is increasingly a collection of people that are kind of ideologically committed to the Trump project?

35:18No doubt. They're scary. It's a bunch of three percenters and Oath Keepers getting recruited and extreme people. And, you know, the U.S. military is a much more diverse group of people who did not sign up to be part of Donald Trump's, you know, urban police squad, which is what they would be. I'm not saying it's not a really serious escalation. I do think it's that what I'm getting at is more this idea that like, oh boy, but the next thing Trump does, boy, that's gonna be crazy, right? He's already doing crazy shit. Like there's plenty of bad happening that J.D. Vance can be questioned about. And like what we've seen over and over again is Trump loves spitballing about the next thing.

35:52He loves being asked about, like, are you gonna suspend habeas corpus? He didn't even know what it was. He was like, probably, who's he? You know, like, so it's like, that's like, I like, I'm not, I like come away with this as just, we're constantly asking the Trump administration of officials to spitball on how much worse they're willing to be. And the answer is always worse. Yes, they might do it. Well, so the vibes in Portland are a little different. We got protesters, they're wearing costumes, they're wearing animal suits. There was a naked bike ride. Where do you land on the antics in Portland?

36:22Does protesting naked diffuse the idea that there's a violent Antifa army? Does it make us look absurd and fringy, something in between? I don't think Portland's going to do well in the battleground states. I don't really care. Like naked people on bikes in Portland. Let Portland, you know what? Keep Portland weird, you know? And if it's going to be, let it, let it do a thing. Videos of naked people on bikes, everything that points out how ridiculous it is to claim Portland as a city at war. I believe it was a Chicago marathon this weekend. I think it was like the Chicago marathon, you know, it's like, this isn't these, we're not a conflict zone.

36:54Yeah. No. And so I like have at it, be weird, be as long as you're peaceful, be as weird and freaky as you want to be. Yeah. I think I'm there too. I think if I had my choice between like dressing in a silly costume weird or a fringe like nudity bike ride weird, I'd go with the costume because I think Republicans would like nothing more than to spin the naked people on bikes as going for your children or like whatever the worst version of it is. And, you know, like we don't always have to think like them. I'm not scolding anyone for protesting. If you're going to protest, more power to you. Credit to you for putting your body out there.

37:31Get in front of some ICE agents. But I don't want to see your dong either. So that's where I am. Yeah, I guess here's the thing. It's like the march of the Pete Buttigieg's will have to take place elsewhere. Portland isn't going to do it its way. Yeah, I like I hear you. But like it's. It is what it is. I'm just saying like all things being equal, if I could choose one, I, you know, I choose the Yoshi costume. Yeah, for sure. Let's just hear, though, how later on the show, you're going to hear from Leah about the No Kings protests and all the organizing going into them. But here's how Republicans are already talking about the No Kings protests.

38:04They have a Hate America rally that's scheduled for October 18th on the National Mall. It's all the pro-Hamas wing and the, you know, the Antifa people. They're all coming out. The terrorist wing of their party, which is set to hold, as Leader Scalise just commented on, a Hate America rally. The No Kings protests, Maria, really frustrating. I mean, this is part of Antifa, paid protesters. It begs the question who's funding it. Is it Hamas, Antifa? Are we hating America? It's a super group. It's a super group. Yeah. I was at the first No King protest. You were at the No King protest last time. And it was so inspiring.

38:41It really was. It was so moving. It was a lot of people with American flags, a lot of people out there with their dogs and their kids and their signs. A lot of people who Mike Johnson doesn't care about. Mike Johnson doesn't care about the concerns of people that don't think exactly the way that he does. He doesn't care that millions of people are genuinely afraid for their country. Also heartbroken by what they've seen in their country. Like genuinely upset, not because they hate America, because they love America. Right, exactly. And they're upset about it. And they know better. It's like January 6th was a day of love now, right?

39:15That we're spinning that terrorist attack against the Capitol as okay now. But like a bunch of people getting together in West Hollywood, holding signs with strollers, listening to speeches. like give me a fucking break it's so insulting it's also like just the way they define these terms down like terrorism pro-hamas like terrorism what are you talking about what are you talking about and it's both ridiculous but also it should trouble everyone because right now we're like terrorists are people you kill right terrorists are organizations that need to be disrupted and dismantled and taken down by law enforcement or the u.s intelligence community or what have you Right.

39:54And so, like, that is the kind of slippery slope with that kind of language to Stephen Miller's dreams that worries me. Yeah, we're far down it because it's not just what they're describing, how they're describing this protest. I talked about this with Leah a bit, but, you know, they're on Indivisible, which was founded after Trump to just organize people at the local level. Little chapters of people getting together to figure out how to do their duty is on a list of people, a list of organizations to be investigated. You have Kristi Noem at this Antifa roundtable last week saying that that Antifa is just as dangerous as Hamas and MS-13 and Trendy Aragua.

40:29right meanwhile as they're blowing up boats without any criminal charges or any any other other evidence and what they're just sort of kind of reassuring us they know about the people on these boats yeah uh lawlessly yeah that's the thing in venezuela right they're saying okay if you're a part of a drug cartel now you're a terrorist which means we can now kill you for suspected drug smuggling like that's the path and you are an unlawful combatant from a non-state actor terrorist group of a cartel. It's like, we can kill you from above and then use the footage to make a snuff film that we put on social media because we are murdering, because you're killing us with drugs as if like they're, I don't know, like, like forcing us to take them at gunpoint.

41:13Yeah, it's really bad. I remember the first boat they hit was traveling off the coast of Venezuela, saw a plane above it or something, turned around to go back. Then it was struck. And then whatever the drone or the airplane or whatever to the second pass and hit the boat again to kill all the people who survived. And there were so many people on that boat that most experts you talk to think there's no way that it was just drug smugglers, that there's probably also some people, some migrants who are trying to, you know, go to another location from Venezuela on that boat who are just innocent victims.

41:43So deeply, deeply messed up stuff. And we don't kill drugs, drug smugglers. That's a criminal enterprise. You have to arrest people. Interdeck the boat. you can capture the boat. You know where it is. You have it on video.

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43:32Speaking of attacks on constitutionally protected speech, let's talk about their new rules for reporters covering the Pentagon. So the Pentagon first announced this policy in a memo released on September 18th. That memo demanded that Pentagon reporters agree to submit their coverage to the government for approval before publishing it, including reports about unclassified information. Those who did not sign risked losing their press credentials. That did not fly with basically anyone in the press corps. So the Pentagon released a revised version of this memo on October 6th that dropped the language about submitting their coverage to the government in advance, but replaced it with a threat to take away press credentials from Pentagon reporters who, quote, solicit information that has not been approved for release, which is what we usually call reporting.

44:20Love it. It feels like this couldn't be a more obvious First Amendment violation. No. Yeah. I mean, look, Pete Egg Seth hates, he's paranoid about people leaking to the press. He's been on a kind of a warpath about this from the beginning. There's all kinds of reports internally have been worried about who's leaking against him. He kicked out outlets from their offices to be replaced by people like Newsmax and OAN. They also like kind of changed where reporters allowed to walk in the Pentagon. So they couldn't go to in as many places as if like these reporters were some kind of security threat, as if this hadn't been just sort of policy for a really long time.

44:56And like a good thing, like just a good thing that, hey, like this is the Pentagon, the home of the most powerful military on earth. But guess what? Here, journalists can walk around and ask people questions. Like that's special about us. That's a beautiful and good thing about us that they don't appreciate. And so now they're releasing this. Obviously, the New York Times, the Washington Post, other outlets you would expect said no, but so did Newsmax, that they didn't wanna sign it. That was earlier today. earlier today, they're refusing to sign it because this is an old line. Journalism is everything that's unauthorized.

45:29What's authorized is PR, right? That's what PR PR is publishing the stuff they want you to say. Everything else is journalism and they're not going to sign a document. And by the way, you can take away people's press passes. You can tell them they can't go to the briefing, not even holding the briefings anymore. Anyway, it's not going to stop these people from doing journalism. They're just going to do it from their fucking phones. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think they have until October 14th, the reporters do to agree to this policy. So we'll see what happens after that when this comes out. Yeah.

45:54So this is coming out tomorrow. When you're hearing this, it's Tuesday. They had until the end of the day today. Yes, exactly. So, yeah, it just criminalizes. It just tries to penalize basic news gathering. And I think this is a long term mistake because there is this anti-war kind of isolationist part of the MAGA movement. They don't want America in foreign wars. They don't want us to nation build. They don't want the Pentagon to waste money. They don't want service members getting killed in Iraq or Afghanistan, right? Far away places. And my argument is all those people would be like, okay, so you want a strong Pentagon press corps.

46:25Like you, this building is spending a trillion dollars a year. They need more oversight. They need more scrutiny or else we're going to see more waste, fraud and abuse. And then like the, I personally, like when I was on the NSC press team, like I had a lot of arguments with reporters about publishing classified stuff that range from like sitting down with the New York Times and learning that they had a quarter of a million State Department cables from WikiLeaks and just being like, OK, like, guess we're fucked. Or like one off conversations where, you know, you're like, can you please be less specific about how we got that information and just say, like, reliable intelligence instead of like intercepted communications or something like that.

47:05But when I look back on that, I really think the balance of concern was overly tilted towards national security over and over and over again. And that overclassification is still a massive problem that has not been tackled at all. And what these new restrictions will do, like you said, reporters, they're not going to stop reporting because they can't walk around the hall. But in totality, it slowly chips away at their media access and their ability to do their job and their relationships in the building. And it's, like you said, replacing real outlets with fake right-wing ones and it's just like right now pete hegseth who was technically a member of the media until like six months ago is just mocking them on twitter have you seen this he's doing like hand emoji waving at them and like the real threat to national security is what this guy's putting in his signal chats it's not nbc news well also it's like you he in one of these things the pentagon doesn't belong to the press it belongs to the people and i know that pete hegseth doesn't understand that the press is meant to be our representative and getting information.

48:12But by the way, like he needs to be able to tell the story of what's happening at the Pentagon. He'll continue to do interviews. And that starts by building trust with major, you know, report news outlets that have the resources still to do journalism about what happens in our foreign policy and what happens in our military. You know, like there's every week, it seems like J.D. Ivan sits down for another interview with a major outlet like NBC or ABC. And then he gets a question he doesn't like. And he's like, why does this even fucking exist? You don't matter. Yeah. It's like, you're here. You're here.

48:45Have you, cause you're doing it. You're doing it because like, like it or not, like you don't, you see value in being part in, in, in talking to these people. And like, Pete can be like waving goodbye. Like, Oh, what a tough guy. You don't need NBC. Like, okay. Like you're just doing, you're just doing jammage to your ability to lead a department that presumably at some point would like to inform the American people about what it's doing, not just the people that are watching OAN, but everybody. Yeah, just so childish and petty. Speaking of which, by the time you're listening to this, the government will have been shut down for two weeks celebrating its two-week birthday.

49:15And as is the case with most two-week-olds, all we're getting is screaming and lots of shit to clean up. Democrats still aren't signing onto the House funding bill. Republicans still aren't negotiating with Democrats on healthcare premiums. And Mike Johnson won't even bring the House back into session. Instead, they're trying to extort leverage by firing people. On Friday, Grim Reaper Russ Vogt announced the layoffs of 4 ,000 federal workers, mostly at Treasury and HHS. And J.D. Vance made this promise during his tour of the Sunday shows. Let's watch. The longer this goes on, the deeper the cuts are going to be.

49:45And Maria, to be clear, some of these cuts are going to be painful. This is not a situation that we relish. This is not something that we're looking forward to. But the Democrats have dealt us a pretty difficult set of cards. Do you think that the What firings are like really putting leverage on the Democrats more than just the whole government? I don't, especially when they like kind of giddily talk about how they're going after Democratic programs and basically explicitly saying it's leverage. The Bulwark actually covered one set of cuts that is eliminating our government's capacity to do mental health programs and substance abuse treatment programs.

50:26And which is sort of ironic, as we were just talking about, because they're claiming in order to protect America from drugs, they can kill narco terrorists from the sky. But they're eliminating the programs that have helped reduce opioid deaths, which actually happened from 2023 to 2024, which actually a great thing. I mean, still too many, but a good thing. But now they're decimating the programs that actually help people who are addicted to those drugs. But we only know that because reporters are piecing it together because this is so ham-fisted and haphazard. And they're not really interested in telling us what they're doing.

50:54No, any everything that they're doing is only underscoring that while this is a fight over health care, this is an administration that is lawless and doing kind of an authoritarian takeover. It should only make people more resolved to continue holding the line on health care at the very least. Yeah. And the next big inflection point is Wednesday when troops will start missing their paychecks. But Trump announced Saturday that the Pentagon is going to be moving funds around to make sure that there's no gaps in pay. So like part of me hears this and I'm like, OK, it's really bad that Trump is doing this without Congress being involved.

51:27The other part of me is like, OK, well, it's good, I guess, that service members are getting paid. But also Trump is kind of giving up what seemed like what they thought was their biggest point of leverage against Democrats. But I don't know. Where do you come down? I don't know. This seems to me more in the kind of like quotidian way in which administrations during shutdowns and outside of them kind of like blur the lines and kind of move money around semi-legally. Like Trump, in the way that like, you know, there was a Congress passed a law that said after a shutdown, people have to get paid what they missed.

52:03The law is crystal clear. And so the - It was signed in 2019. 2019 by Donald Trump. And the OMB puts out OMB under Russ vote puts out a memo saying, actually, the law doesn't say that because if you read this clause a certain way, Congress has to actually say to pay people back, which doesn't really make sense because the whole purpose of the law is to make sure people are paid back after a shutdown. If Congress has to also say it, then you don't need the law that was passed specifically to do this. It makes absolutely no sense. But they're putting out the draft memo. Why? To intimidate people, to make people think they might not get back pay, to kind of make the shutdown more painful, to make Democrats feel like they're responsible for more pain.

52:41And so like the kind of moving money around to pay troops, fine, trying to kind of lawlessly figure out ways to hurt people. That is exactly why it was necessary to kind of draw the line on this shutdown. And Republicans keep saying, you know, whatever things we agree to, Democrats, we'll just use the rescissions process to claw back money anyway. So it's like, I don't know what we're supposed to trust from these guys. there's also like a bigger point which is i i feel this in my life i hear it from others i feel like doing this show this shutdown is just not commanding people's attention the way previous ones have and i've kind of i thought about why that might be like part of it is because the the drama around whether the government will shut down is a big deal and then once it's shut down it's kind of like every day is just the same terrible shit but also maybe it's because trump is just kind of like causing chaos in so many other ways.

53:36I guess today he just wants to be talking about whatever's happening in the Middle East. And that's for once kind of good news, but it is notable that like, I'm sure it's impacting a lot of people. I don't mean to minimize that in any way. I'm sure there's like government workers listening or like, screw you, I'm not getting a paycheck. I'm scared. I'm not dismissing that at all. But in terms of just like the broader media conversation, I just don't know that many people are noticing. Yeah, it doesn't feel like what it would have, It feels like it's less of a like concentrating event than it was in the past.

54:04Like in previous shutdowns, it was like that was all the news was shutdown day, whatever. Like everything was focused on that. I do think part of this is just like Trump is a chaos agent. There's a lot of shit happening. You've got you've got ice mass ice agents on the streets like causing chaos. You've got your troop deployments. You have what's happening in the Middle East. You have just the he's charging his political enemies. you look at the list of things and like, yes, it's not getting as much attention as it used to be. I wonder the same thing, because I do feel it, like, which is like, this used to be a bigger deal.

54:38I mean, it is true that over the years, they've kind of chipped it. They've like, they've passed laws to make shutdowns less impactful, right? Like to allow certain checks to go out to like provide certain capacities. So like it has, because it is a, it's a smaller share of the government than what it used to be. I mean, last, you know, shutdown in the nineties, that's where, that's where shit went down. I mean, that like that, that's a changed the course of history. I was wondering that one in 1998. Yes, that's well said. But to your list, I do remember that. I do remember that, yeah. Add to your list of things that are kind of just not making news that Trump is doing.

55:08On Friday, he threatened a 100 % tariff on Chinese imports and then gave himself like, till November 1st to enforce it and then seemingly walked it back. So yeah, it's constant. You never know, you never know like, Like, what was the precipitating incident to cause him to say this, to walk it back? It caused the stock market to do a dip and then recover. You wonder who's making money on that, who's aware he's gonna do that, who's aware that he's gonna undo it. Like, there's just like, oh, like, he's just a, like, the amount, like, he's a chaos agent in the markets. And now it's like, once again, you know, he sees the, who knows, right?

55:46He threatens this thing, he sees the market, he realizes it goes too far, he walks it back, who knows? And some of it, by the way, Like you look at the like Trump in in this sort of summit that he's called together and you see all these leaders talking. There was one moment caught where he's talking to one of these leaders and that leader brings up meeting with Eric. Oh, Indonesia, right? Right. Indonesia's leader brings up that he's going to be with it. Was it with Eric and Don? Who are not involved at all in anything government related. They don't touch anything government related. There's no reason that they would need to meet with the head of a foreign state.

56:20But yeah, Trump's telling them to go talk to Don. Right. And then you have leaders kind of going up there and saying, God, we got to get this fucking guy the Nobel Peace Prize. He made a joke at Norway's expense, which I thought like he handled it fine. Like it's better than bombing Norway over this. But like, it's just also personal. So you just never fucking know. Yeah. Everybody trotted up to the microphone was like, give this man the Nobel Peace Prize. Even I was like, I'm going to give you Israel's greatest prize. It's never gone to a non-Israeli citizen. And then you'll get that other one.

56:47It's like, OK, we get it. OK, one last thing before we get to Levitt's conversation with Leah Greenberg. If you flew on a plane over the holiday weekend, you may have seen a video of Kristi Noem, the Secretary of Homeland Security, playing at TSA checkpoints, blaming travel delays on Democrats. Let's watch. It is TSA's top priority to make sure that you have the most pleasant and efficient airport experience as possible while we keep you safe. However, Democrats in Congress refuse to fund the federal government. And because of this, many of our operations are impacted and most of our TSA employees are working without pay.

57:21We will continue to do all that we can to avoid delays that will impact your travel. And our hope is that Democrats will soon recognize the importance of opening the government. Airports in Seattle, Portland, Cleveland and other places said they're not going to air that video because it obviously violates the Hatch Act, which prohibits the use of federal assets for political purposes. Meanwhile, a separate far more fun known video is making the rounds as well. Let's watch that one. Our government agents are working without pay. Luckily, my boys at ICE don't mind. They're in it for the love of the game.

57:54And how did I find them? By running ads like this. Do you need a job now? Yeah. Are you a big tough guy? Yeah. Tough enough for the army or police? No. But do you take supplements that you bought at a gas station? Daily. Do you like to use zip ties because people in your life don't trust you with keys? You know it. Then buckle up and slap on some Oakleys, big boy. Welcome to ice. I like that Tina Fey, somehow the accent runs from North Dakota to Alaska. It's sort of like one kind of loose mountain accent. Yeah, it was basically just roll long O's. Sarah Palin with a hat on. But I love it. I didn't see that.

58:34You flew over the weekend. I flew over the weekend. I didn't see that, Ed. No, I didn't see it. No, but I doubt they would play it in Minneapolis. I feel like Minneapolis is such a bastion. Yeah, I flew out of Burbank, which a couple of days earlier had had no air traffic controllers on duty. Yeah, in the evening, in the evening, in the evening. Yeah, I talked about it, love it or leave it. For a brief flickering moment, LAX was the best airport in Los Angeles. It was only those four hours. Yeah, Hannah texted me and was like, have you seen these reports? Is this true? Are we really gonna do this?

59:01My flight was delayed getting back here today, but only because a pilot called in sync. So I can't really blame Noam for that. Yeah, it's like, it is such a, like, it's a small thing. It doesn't really matter. Do I think that, like, you're going to really get people on the line at the airport to say, like, you know what? I am going to change my party registration. Democrats are a bunch of fucking assholes. You know, like, I'm not really that worried about it. But there's such a, like, there was a, like, a meme going around that said, hey, like, I have a theory. Everybody's 12. And it's like, why are people eating only red meat and french fries?

59:33Because they're 12. Like, oh, there's crime. We should put the army on it. You're 12, you know, and it's like, oh, like you're mad at the Democrats and you're ahead of the Homeland Security. You can make a video and show it to everybody. And you're going to you're really mad. You're going to express it. And you're like, you're 12. You're supposed to be a fucking adult. Yeah. It's one of those things where it's like it is we're we're from the before times before Trump. It is a shocking violation of the law for people who had to like worry about the Hatch Act and try not to violate it and like actually be concerned about these kind of things.

1:00:01to see that video. It just like makes you realize that everything, you know, it's just absurd. I know I'm kind of of the view that propaganda works in aggregate in the long term and that like videos like this and that all the other ways that government officials are just blaming Democrats through government channels and official communications through emails and letters to workforces like I worry it adds up. I do, too. I do, too. Jokes aside. But it's it's there's something about like Mike Johnson saying it's a hate America reality or Kristi Noem feeling like, you know what, I'm going to make a video where I blame the Democrats and I'm going to play it at all the airports.

1:00:37Right. Like there it's I didn't realize how important like forbearance was. Right. Like we talk about the way in which Republicans are shameless all the time and how powerful shame was as a way of preventing terrible politics. But but there was also just this idea that, you know what, like I may be mad. I may be angry. I might fight Democrats annoying. I may want to beat them. But I'm just going to like I can be a little bit reserved and I cannot say everything and go all the way because we're sharing a country. And there'll be a Democrat in this job one day. And presumably I would rather them not attack Republicans on the screens while you're waiting to go through the airport.

1:01:13That said, when you're waiting on line at the airport and you see the person responsible for the line, I don't think it's always helpful. That's a really good point. I know. Like when Eric Garcetti used to welcome me at LAX to be like, we got to get rid of it. Truly the worst idea I've ever had. If you're responsible for this airport, we got big problems. Yeah, I had the same exact thought about no one's like, ma 'am, you don't want to be seen in this setting. This is not good for anybody. Okay, in a second, we're gonna get to Lovett's interview with Leah Greenberg. But before we do, we want to tell you about some big news.

1:01:36Crooked Media Reads is releasing our next book on January 27, 2026. It's called Hated by All the Right People, Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind. It's by an incredible journalist named Jason Zengerle. You know him from New York Times Magazine, lots of other places, just one of the best in the business. The title comes from Tucker himself. When he visited Hungary in 2021, he praised Viktor Orban for being hated by all the right people. And Jason wanted to write this book about Tucker because, you know, the key to understanding the Trump age is understanding how we as a society stopped seeking truth and started seeking outrage.

1:02:12and Tucker's path from one of the best magazine writers or long-form writers in the business to what he is today kind of traces that path. So it's an excellent book. I've read it. You will all love it. And you can pre-order your copy of Hated by All the Right People at crooked.com slash books. Also, California voters, on November 4th, you'll vote on Prop 50. It is a ballot measure to stop Trump from power grabbing extra seats in the U.S. House and hanging it onto a federal trifecta. I've never heard power grabbing as a verb like that before. Until I read it. The best way to make sure Prop 50 passes is to vote yes on November 4th and to make sure everyone you know knows about it.

1:02:54So Vote Save America is hosting an event on Wednesday, October 15th at 8 p.m. We'll get you up to speed on how to take action. You don't have to live in California to join. All you need to do is go to votesaveamerica.com slash Prop 50. This is paid for by Vote Save America. VotesaveAmerica.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. Also not paid for by any candidate or candidate's committee. I have a limited series that is on the Love It or Leave It feed. In today's attention economy, the only thing worse than being hated is being boring. That is true in politics, but that is because it was true in reality TV.

1:03:28That is the world reality TV built. I love reality TV. It is my escape. It is also clear to me that you can't understand politics in this moment if you do not understand how to win at Housewives. In this series, Love It or Leave It presents, Bravo America, I am sitting down with icons of reality TV. I had an amazing conversation with Dorinda Medley, with Parvati Shallow, who is one of the greats of Survivor. I talked to Olivia Plath, who was on Welcome to Plathville, about what it was like to escape a Christian fundamentalist community. I talked to Dr. Terry Dubrow about practicing medicine and being a parent to LGBT kids on television.

1:04:06It has been so fun to do these interviews. I have found them fascinating, interesting, and surprising. A lot of stories that haven't been told before. So please check it out. It's going to be coming out every Tuesday for the next eight weeks. You can listen to it as a podcast. It's also on the Love It or Leave It YouTube, where we'd love for you to subscribe. So check it out. All right. When we come back, you'll hear Love It's conversation with Leah Greenberg from Indivisible about the No Kings protests.

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1:05:53Joining us now, she's the co-executive director of Indivisible, one of the organizations behind this weekend's No Kings protest. Leah Greenberg, welcome to the pod. Great to be here. So the last No Kings protest was on June 14th. It was time to counter Trump's military parade. Several million people turned out. It was genuinely surprising just how much enthusiasm there was. Maybe that is a poor reflection on me. I don't know how surprised you are by the turnout. But what led to the second No Kings protest? What is this organized around? Why this weekend? Well, one of the things that we heard and we felt from the first No Kings protest was, you know, people needed to be part of a movement.

1:06:34People came out in the numbers that we saw because there is growing understanding in this country that something extraordinarily dangerous and threatening is happening. And there is a need for broad, popular mass defiance of that. And so over the summer, as we have seen these repeated escalations, right, the passage of the one big, beautiful bill that rips health care away from so many people, the attacks on DC, on Chicago, on Portland, the ways in which this administration is escalating attacks on the First Amendment across civil society. You know, we've been feeling collectively that it's time to bring together again, everybody across the country who will take that stand against authoritarianism, against corruption, against attacks on our neighbors.

1:07:16And so, you know, it was an understanding that we had a moment that we could collectively build on, and we had a frame that we could collectively build on, and that it was going to be important to continue to foster that sense of mass popular opposition and defiance as the administration tries to consolidate control. So you've been getting a lot of free press. Mike Johnson called it a hate America rally. Why do you hate America? I mean, look, this is honestly, it's ridiculous and it's sinister in equal parts. I think it's notable that he called it a hate America rally because he can't bear to say out loud the name of the actual rally, which is No Kings, which is about the most American sentiment in the world.

1:08:01personally, as somebody who led the crowd in the Pledge of Allegiance of about 100 ,000 people in Philadelphia at our last rally, it was a little bit of a surprise to hear that. But I think we can also be really clear about what's happening, right? Which is that one, they are flailing, they are panicking, they don't have a message on why they are shutting down the government to stop people from getting healthcare. So they're just trying to grab for anything they can. And two, they're trying to legitimate and set up for the broad attack on civil society that Donald Trump and Stephen Miller have very clearly signaled that they are going to wage.

1:08:33Yeah. So speaking of that, we've seen this effort to tie a whole bunch of peaceful, progressive organizations to a nefarious organization called they're calling Antifa, claiming that all these disparate groups are connected and inciting terrorism and violence. That is obviously chilling. And then it turns out Indivisible is specifically named as one of the groups potentially being investigated. What was your reaction to that? And are there any signs that this is anything beyond just something in a document somewhere inside the White House or the Justice Department? that? Well, look, I think we have to understand it first in the context of the authoritarian playbook, which is that across a bunch of different fronts in society, they push as hard as they can, and they claim powers that they don't have, and they see whether people allow them to do it, allow them to get away with it, whether they fold in advance.

1:09:35And we saw that in how they interact with businesses. We see that in how they're interacting with higher education and law firms. We're seeing that now in how they're interacting with civil society. And so I was not surprised as they started to escalate. I have not been surprised that they are targeting a bunch of the entities that they perceive as mobilizing their political opposition. And it's also really clear that this is a moment when collectively we have to stay rooted in who we are, what we value, what we stand for, and say, we are simply exercising our First Amendment rights. There is a First Amendment right to protest this government and the harm it is doing to regular Americans.

1:10:11And, you know, whether or not they're going to try to assert powers that they don't have to wage this unconstitutional crackdown, somebody's got to stand firm and say, we're here and we're going to exercise our rights. And the best way to push back against this kind of unlawful, unconstitutional overreach is more free speech. So, yes, I hear that. But they could try to hurt organizations with process, right? Right. Indivisible is an incredible organization that popped up in response to Donald Trump. And it has mobilized people and engaged people entirely peaceful in every way humanly possible.

1:10:49But that wouldn't stop them from trying to put the government on organizations they don't like. And I am genuinely curious. Like, I think that two things can be true. One, you have to be defiant of something like this and not and not treat it, not not allow it to change what you're doing. Well, at the same time, organizations on the left need to be ready and buttoned up and figure out how they're going to be prepared for anything that may come. And I just want to understand how you're preparing. Absolutely. Well, I mean, the short version is we take these threats seriously. We prepare in advance.

1:11:19We think about what we need to do, both to make sure that we're a thousand percent intensively clear on our own values, on our commitment to peaceful, peaceful protest and nonviolence, that we train and support people all over the country for something like No Kings intensively to make sure that they are capable of holding peaceful, joyful events everywhere. And that we're, you know, we're preparing our own organizations in the event of some kind of unlawful or unconstitutional effort to shut down peaceful protest and organized opposition. So we take it seriously, but we also understand that part of the purpose of this cycle of threats is to throw you off your game.

1:11:56It's to distract you. It's to make you back down in advance and not do things that you previously would have done out of the fear of repression. And so a big part of what we are trying to collectively do, both as an organization and as we call for and move forward with the No Kings protest, is break that cycle of anticipatory obedience, is say, we have these powers, we have these rights, we are going to continue to assert them. And if you want to stop us, you are going to have to show that you are prepared to do unconstitutional things, and then we will continue to push back. So let's talk about what that looks like, because we've seen millions of people come out at the previous protests.

1:12:30I hope we see the same this weekend. I'll be out there. I think a lot of people at Crooked are going to be out there. We're all going to be. The first time it was an incredibly inspiring day because you saw all these people showing up for No Kings. That was that was aligning with a bunch of unions that were coming out and that had been protesting with immigration groups that had come out or protesting. It was entirely peaceful, patriotic. It was a beautiful thing to see. There's two big, big reasons. Big corporations, colleges, law firms, media organizations capitulate to Trump. One, they give him power he couldn't take, right?

1:13:05They are afraid of him and they bend. The other is that they're not afraid of the opposition, that they don't view the vast number of Americans who don't want to live in an autocracy as any kind of political problem they have to worry about. We've seen signs that that can change. There was a lot of pressure on Disney over Kimmel. But for the most part, they haven't been wrong that Trump is a bigger political problem than those that don't like Trump in terms of consumers and their reaction. How do you make sure or how do you how do you transform this incredible enthusiasm that you have helped reveal and show make clear that that exists around No Kings?

1:13:43How do we turn that into actual political actions, turn that enthusiasm into specific pressure points and changes? Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that we think about a lot at Indivisible is, you know, we've moved into a stage of authoritarian consolidation and power moves differently as an authoritarian starts to take more power. And you have to think not only about your formal political representation, right, your member of Congress, your senators, et cetera, but the other places in your life where you have some leverage, you have some ability to weigh in, your faith institution, if you have one, your higher education institution, if you are a student or an alumni, your workplace, your professional association, the places where you actually, your role as a consumer, the places where you have some power over institutions that are making decisions about whether they're going to enable and go along with Trump or whether they're going to push back.

1:14:35And so after the first No Kings, we trained about 250 ,000 people in strategic non-cooperation and how to kind of campaign and target and apply pressure to some of those pillars of society, those institutions that are not your formal elected officials, but that are in fact shaping how power unfolds in this moment. And so we're seeing some of that come to fruition, right? There is more organized campaigning getting up and running every day as it relates to higher education, bringing together students, bringing together alumni, people pushing back on this effort to get a bunch of institutions to sign a compact with the Trump administration.

1:15:10So we're seeing some of that. I think the Kimmel incident was a really important moment for people in demonstrating our collective power as consumers. And we're definitely looking at how do we continue to apply that and support it. You know, things like pushing on the target boycott and also figuring out additional ways to use our leverage. And I think we also just have to ask people to collectively figure out how do they push back within their own sphere of influence, right? Who are you? Are you a consumer? Are you an alumni? Are you a member of an institution locally that has some power to push back?

1:15:46What are they doing? What could they be doing? You actually have to figure out how to work that leverage. Yeah, it's interesting. There's a vicious circle that certainly democratic leaders, they just don't have a lot of trust. Either morally, right? They're not viewed as sort of morally courageous leaders. It's the truth. And they're not seen as sort of strategic masterminds. And so they have neither kind of strategic or kind of moral trust. And so people look around. They don't see people doing things. A lot of the times you've helped prove a big exception. And they look up and they don't really trust what they're hearing from above, right?

1:16:20But you can imagine a virtuous circle where an organization that produces something like No Kings can direct people into a specific action. People heard about friends and others and people online canceling Disney+. Suddenly, there's something that was happening organically. And I guess my question is, how do we get that next step? This is our second No Kings protest. I'm very excited about it. How do we then turn this into a what's the political action we get this big group of people to take next? Yeah, well, first of all, I wouldn't I wouldn't overlook the value of continuing to push Democrats to stand up and to push back.

1:17:01Right. Because fundamentally, we've been on this journey with the Democratic Party over the course of the last nine months where we are trying to move people into a resistance posture. And it has been it has been a work in progress. And also, they are, in fact, currently, you know, really actually going out on a limb to push back on millions of people losing their health care, seeing health care prices rise, holding their leverage as it relates to the shutdown. That's actually huge progress. And, you know, and I think when you get back to that question of how do you move institutions from being afraid, more afraid of Trump than they are of potential consequences for enabling Trump, a big part of that is, is there an opposition party that seems like it's actually willing to use its leverage in the future if it regains power to investigate, to enact consequences for people who went along with this regime of lawbreaking unconstitutional actions?

1:17:56And we've seen a few of those moments where Democrats really start to say, and there's going to be consequences, but we need to have more. Because part of how we got here in the first place is, frankly, senior level MAGA folks did not experience consequences in 2020 after they literally tried to overthrow the government. And so they have correctly concluded that the modern iteration of the Democratic Party is not one that's going to have consequences next time. We have to fix that perception problem. Yeah. And to your point, right, why why did we end up in why were Democratic leaders willing to go hard for a shutdown?

1:18:33They did it in part because they felt pressure from their voters who said, hey, I need to see a fight from you. And to their credit, right, there are a lot of people that were critical, I think, of making the fight about health care. There's some people that thought there shouldn't be a shutdown. There are some people that thought the fight needed to be over the entirety of the authoritarian takeover. But they focused on this issue and it does seem to have Republicans on their heels. That's right. And, you know, look, politics is the art of the possible. And the ability of the Democratic coalition to successfully align around one issue is it's a step forward.

1:19:07Is it exactly how if I were in charge of all messaging of everyone would maybe I would do something differently? It doesn't matter. They were actually collectively able to to get together around health care. And I think what we've seen over the last couple of weeks is that that was a good gamble. It is breaking through in a way that in a way that a lot of people were really skeptical of. You have helped put together with a bunch of organizations what is going to be a ton of people, patriotic people who love this country and don't want to see what's happening to it continue, who are peaceful, who are going to show up with kids and with dogs and with signs.

1:19:43And then you have Republicans like Trump and Mike Johnson and all these other people claiming it's some sort of hate America, Antifa, radical riot. There may be places where random people decide to, you know, throw a trash can, set something on fire. Right. Like they're going to try to use those examples. Or there may be other people that show up to try to turn protests into something chaotic and dangerous, right? How do we respond to that? How do we make sure that everyone understands that the No Kings protest is a peaceful action by people wanting to make their voices heard? Well, first, I think we do everything that we can to ensure that they are peaceful actions, right?

1:20:24And that is training tens of thousands of people in safety and de-escalation and making sure folks have safety plans in place wherever they are to support peaceful and joyful events. So that's the first piece. The second, I think, is pre-messaging this exact playbook, right? It's really clear as Republicans go on the offense against millions of Americans coming out to express their First Amendment rights that what they are trying to do is create the permission structure for a broad crackdown on civil society. We can see that coming. And we should be saying that right now, right, that they are collectively trying to put the wheels in motion to support this Stephen Miller vengeful quest to go after anybody who opposes them.

1:21:06So I think we can tell people that story in advance in a way that helps them understand it if and when Republicans put that plan into action. And then finally, I think we all have to just collectively understand that we're in a moment where there are risks on all sides. And the way that we talk about that in this country, a lot of times it's about kind of like, should I speak out? Should I do something right now? What we don't talk enough about is the long-term risk of living under a consolidating authoritarian regime where we are poor, we are less safe, our kids are more likely to be killed by gun violence, we're all more likely to die of communicable diseases because there's no public health infrastructure.

1:21:43culture risks to all of us are going up all of the time. And we have to think about it in terms of, you know, what is the path? What is the collective action that we can take that puts us on a different path for this country? And that is actions like No Kings. And that is actions like coming out this weekend. Leah Greenberg, thank you so much for your time. Everybody get out there this weekend. We will see you out there. It's going to be fun. I'm going to bring a dog or a sign. It's probably I can be a dog, if I'm being honest.

1:22:16That's our show for today. Thanks to Leah Greenberg for coming on. John and Dan will be back with a new show on Friday. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Krugged Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank, and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer.

1:22:48Reid Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.