1091: How Many Republicans Will Follow MTG?

23:28Yeah, I think they have a fucking gall to criticize those Democrats for that video when they refuse to provide any legal justification whatsoever. Even one that you could say is phony or that you disagree with or that's flimsy. They're not even trying that. No legal justification for the strikes and no evidence whatsoever that these boats have been carrying drugs. I think people will get prosecuted over this policy. I hope it's Pete Hegseth. I hope it's not like lower level people like within the bowels of the U.S. military. I mean, the guy in charge of Southern Command, the admiral in charge of Southern Command, resigned over this policy because he thought it was unlawful.

24:01So, look, they're just murdering people in boats. We don't know who they are. One of the boats reportedly turned around. One seems to have stalled. You can see the video. They're just like these snuff videos of hitting boats just sitting in the water. Like, it's crazy. And by the way, even let's say they do know. Even that, like, we're just so far from a real justification. We're not allowed to just blow people up, even if they are drug traffickers with drugs. Right. What? That's not. What kind of self-defense is that? It's not a thing. It's not a thing. That's why that you see all the, and that guy resigned.

24:31Also, there's like a bunch of lawyers resigned or were forced out around this. Yeah, they placed a bunch of them. Yeah. Yeah. Or they're just benefiting from the chaos of the fact that people are being shuffled. People are stepping down, right? Like there's just, there's just jobs that aren't being currently filled by the kind of serious national security lawyers that would have been there in previous administrations. Yeah. And look, I know there's listeners like screaming at the phone right now being like, what about Obama and his drone policy against Al Qaeda and the way you guys stretch the AUMF within an inch of its life.

24:56Like I, I agree with a lot of that criticism, frankly. Um, the, the response would be at least there was a, a vote to authorize the use of force against Al Qaeda and associated forces. Like that pretext hasn't even happened here. They're just designating them terrorist groups made up based on this like made up term, this made up cartel association that came from like Venezuelan journalists. Also the Obama administration did not start just drone striking a bunch of boats and then saying, trust us, we think there were some terrorists in those boats and we're not going to tell you who they were or what or what the evidence is or anything else.

25:30Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, the argument would be that, look, you don't, a lot of the drone strikes, like you don't know who is at a target. There were a lot of big mistakes that were made. There were some influence ones in Yemen in particular. And that like, you know, by the end of the administration, you're hitting targets in Somalia based on an AUF that was dealing with the 9-11 attacks. I get all the criticism. I agree with a lot of it, but like just want to be clear that this is a new, different, even more absurd thing. Yeah. And before we move on from this, we're going to war maybe because Venezuela rigged the 2020 election.

26:03Yeah, you heard it here first. Ghost of Hugo Chavez kind of thing. This is the real thing that Trump believes now? Apparently. I guess he's always believed it, but now it's resurfacing. I've heard that Maria Machado is kind of whispering this to him. I don't know that for sure. I've heard it from people who are like experts in this policy world. It's insane. So stupid. So stupid. Trump and Rubio are still dealing with another war they promised to end before starting this new one. American and Ukrainian negotiators met in Geneva over the weekend to revise a Trump-brokered peace plan so favorable to Russia that at least one Republican senator thought the U.S.

26:35didn't even draft it. Those talks yielded a, quote, refined peace framework that was more acceptable to Ukraine. But we still don't really know what the prospects are. The EU put out its own counterproposal to the Trump plan, which the Kremlin said on Monday is completely unconstructive and does not work for them. I was even confused trying to figure this all out about the flurry of news around this and these negotiations and the plan over the weekend. Tommy, can you explain what happened and what's in the Trump plan as far as we know? Yeah, I mean, that Mike Rounds statement was very confusing.

27:06It's like the origins of the plan seems to be up in the air based on this conversation with Rubio, who briefed a bunch of Republicans who then suggested that, I don't know, It's all very weird. Like what the administration says is that this has been basically negotiated by Steve Wyckoff, Trump's golf buddy and kind of envoy for everything. And then this Russian guy named Kirill Dmitriev, who controls the Russian sovereign wealth fund. The specifics are unsurprising if you followed the maximalist Russian demands over the years. It seems to have just leaked out like Wyckoff. Again, these guys don't know how to use DM.

27:38I think Wyckoff tweeted something like, oh, did this come from K, meaning Kirill? I think he was supposed to DM that, but he thinks the Russians leaked it. That timing is notable because Zelensky is dealing with this massive corruption scandal. And the Russians are also getting really aggressive and they're firing drones like Polish airspace and all these other European countries. There's all these sabotage operations. So I think that's how it came out. And that seems to have fast forward a process that got us to these negotiations that were happening over the weekend in Geneva. Do we think we're in a better place now?

28:08Well, I mean, the original 28-point plan was like just full surrender. It was basically Ukraine gives over the Donbass region. They gave over Crimea. Kyrgyzstan and Zaporizhia are frozen along the battle lines, and the Russians occupy the parts. It's de facto recognition that Russia gets what they're occupying. And then it capped the size of the Ukrainian military. It says Ukraine can't join NATO, but they could try to join the EU. It would force them to hold elections in 100 days. And then the security guarantee part of this is just fucking bullshit. Like there was this Axios story that's like, oh, there's a NATO like security guarantee.

28:41Saw that. Absolutely not. No NATO troops are allowed to be in Ukraine. That was sort of seen as like a tripwire force that you have like in place in Ukraine where the Russians invaded. It would immediately pull in Europe. That's off the table. The U.S. is not providing anything close to a NATO like guarantee. But the Russians get amnesty for crimes committed during the war. They get reintegrated into the global economy in the G8. Sanctions get lifted. and then the U.S. and Russia do some deal to cooperate on like energy and AI and rare earths and stuff. That 28 point has been now negotiated to like 19 points and then the rest of it goes to the leaders.

29:14But so I think it's getting a little better, but it's not good. It feels like also it could get better to the point where then Putin decides, no, now it's too good. And it seems like it's in his interest to just continue dragging this out. Yeah. I mean, either he He continues to take territory or he gets a deal. Love it. On Twitter this morning, J.D. Vance weighed in, as is always helpful, where he had this long tweet taking a bunch of potshots at fellow Republicans who didn't like the White House's plan. And he ridiculed their, quote, passion for Ukraine as, quote, bonkers. What's your sense of the politics for the White House and the Republican Party here?

29:54I do always appreciate when J.D. Vance directs that fucking patronizing smug tone at Republicans. So they just get a little whiff of it. You know, look, this is an issue that divides Republicans. And they have a lot of those these days. And I don't think the politics of this are very good for them. Mitch McConnell put out a statement about this and he made this point at the end of it that I thought was, I think, relevant. He said something to the effect of the United States is not neutral in these negotiations and we should not pretend otherwise, which is wishful in two ways. One, he doesn't want America to be neutral, but really what he wants is us to be less biased toward Russia.

30:35He continues to operate in the fantasy that America is really actually still maintaining what he and the other kind of old school establishment neocon style Republicans believe, which is obviously seeing the invasion of Ukraine by Russia as a dangerous act that if allowed to be successful, bodes terribly for Taiwan, the rest of Europe, the free world. But that's obviously not where Trump and Whitcoff are. I don't, Wyckoff gave yet another interview. I think this was with Carlson talking about how much he likes Putin and doesn't see him as a bad guy. Whatever the reality of what they believe is their posture, they come across as being so guileless in dealing with Putin.

31:18And the idea that you're going to attack Republicans for being obsessed with this issue for pointing that out, I don't think is particularly smart. It's also just interesting. like look this is just another peace deal so-called peace deal where trump's version of getting a peace deal done is just the stronger side gets everything and the weaker side gets told to take it at gunpoint i mean that's what happened in gaza too it's also worth pointing out that like the the u.s and the russians are like cutting this deal uh bilaterally and then presenting it to the ukrainians and others conversations happening as the rest of the world is in south Africa at the G20, which we are boycotting.

31:56And the COP climate forum just wraps up in Brazil, which we also boycotted. So it's like the degree to which we have just taken ourselves out of the traditional forums and structures that would solve an issue like this is kind of, it is remarkable and unnerving. And I think it's just, I mean, from JD Vance's tweet, it's, we shouldn't have to solve things like this. And let's let the stronger power win. And because it doesn't matter to us. And if they, if Russia comes for us, well, we're strong too. So we can deal with that then. But none of that. That's basically the thinking, which is. Right.

32:30Except. Very, very great powers era. But none of it makes sense. Like you have the, you have the envoys, you are negotiating the deal. It's not, I don't know what it means for the, the, whatever passion he's claiming people have, it doesn't justify negotiating a deal that is more favorable to Russia. First of all, It's not clear that that ends this war any sooner because the Ukrainians are not going to go along with a deal like that. And that won't necessarily end the fighting. And by the way, anything, any deal that doesn't provide any kind of security guarantees. Like what? Why? It's just. Why do you think Russia is so concerned about having NATO troops in Ukraine?

33:12Why? Why would they if they want to deal? Why would they care? And they care because this is a pretext to whatever, gain some leverage, gain entrance to the global economy, and then just wait a couple years and assume America, like a goldfish, moves on and then do it all over again. Right. It's like the next, this sort of, this tells Ukraine in practice, you're no longer a fully sovereign country. Like we, the US and Russia get to tell you when to have an election. We get to tell you the size of your military. We get to tell you if you can join NATO. And then it makes Ukraine a sitting duck if Putin wants to bite off another chunk in a year or two.

33:44But also what happens if the Russians shift some of these troops and they just sit them outside a Baltic country and all of a sudden a NATO country is about to get invaded? I mean, the Russians are firing drones into Poland on the regular. The Poles just accused them of blowing up a rail line. Well, that used to resupply the Ukrainians. Fast forward to two years when J.D. Vance is tweeting the passion from the Beltway GOP for NATO is just it disgusts me. That was the end of his tweet, this disgusts me. Show some passion for your own country. The other part too is like, NATO is a promise, right?

34:17Does anyone believe that Donald Trump is gonna stand behind NATO? The only, like, what is actually holding NATO together is the fact that I do think there's credibility in Europe's now claim to defend its fellow members. But I don't know that anyone could believe Donald Trump, Steve Whitcoff, and J.D. Vance would have the passion for defending our allies. Yeah, that's probably why they're shitting bricks in Taiwan too. Yeah. Yeah. At one point in this 28 point plan, I think there's a reference to the U.S. like mediating talks between the Russia and NATO. And it's like, wait, we are NATO. What are you talking about?

34:48We're not some like outside observer here. That's kind of anyway. But thankfully, those bricks are some of the most sophisticated bricks on planet Earth. And as long as they keep shitting those bricks, you know what I'm saying? Yes, I do.

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36:25The biggest news on the continued fracturing of the MAGA coalition came rather suddenly on Friday night when Marjorie Taylor Greene posted this video along with a letter of resignation from Congress. Loyalty should be a two-way street. Standing up for American women who were raped at 14 years old, trafficked in use by rich, powerful men, should not result in me being called a traitor and threatened by the President of the United States. And I do not want my sweet district to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the president that we all fought for, only to fight and win my election while Republicans will likely lose the midterms.

37:06I refuse to be a battered wife, hoping it all goes away and gets better. So Trump responded on Saturday by calling MTG a, quote, nice person, telling NBC that she needs to, quote, take a little rest. and then he went back to bashing her on Truth Social as a quote lowlife and once again called her Marjorie Traitor Brown. Now this is a combination of his two nicknames. First it was Marjorie Taylor Brown because Brown is rotting and Green is not and she's rotted. What? Yeah, that was the first swing and it was not a good one. Jesus, dude. So then he said, then he realized, oh, Traitor was right there.

37:41So now then he called her Marjorie Traitor Green but now he's decided to bring both together which is why we have Marjorie Traitor Brown. It's a trunk for sure. better than the patron before i guess yeah yeah that's true well yeah that's true why do you guys think she did it what was it what was your reaction when you saw this uh so first of all i'll just be honest i was like oh no which i can't believe like just that's my first marjorie no uh so here's what i'm struggling with marjorie no like take it at face value you could have said everything she says in this video or version of it while saying and so i I will not be seeking a new term, right?

38:22What I'm struggling with and with the logic of is the country is in dire straits. We need people who are willing to fight, just, you know, no fear or favor. So I'm leaving early, I'm gonna leave my seat open. And it's especially strange, and we'll talk more about sort of the broader problems inside of the Republican caucus in the House right now, but we're about to enter a period where she would have probably more power inside of Congress than she could ever hope or anyone at her level in Congress could ever hope to have it in normal period. So that's what I find strange about it, even if you take what she's saying at face value.

38:58What do you think? Yeah, no, I had a similar reaction. I was like, there's something kind of sad about Marjorie Taylor Greene deciding she can't be the world's biggest Trump supporter, but also want the Epstein files released and not think it's a great idea to funnel arms overseas. And that was kind of like my takeaway. And I guess being in Congress just really sucks unless you're one of like four people because they make all the decisions while the decisions get foisted upon you even the committee chairs have no power they just get jammed by the white house and they're told to grin and bear it and then i think i do think the security threats are quite real especially post charlie kirk like i heard from somebody that uh mtg's kids were getting harassed in a very um unsettling way and like she seems genuinely disillusioned with trump Trump.

39:43She was not ready to eat shit for him. If there's a Democratic Congress, like her speech was she said, I refuse to be a battered wife and hope it all goes away and gets better. Like that was a pretty jarring comparison. I also believed her when she said she believes in term limits and doesn't think Congress should be quote a lifelong career or an assisted living facility. I found myself applauding that line too. And then like the Machiavellian take on it is she is basically quitting to say, well, I'm actually even more America first than he is right now. And she's like, when people figure out the statement is rigged, I'll be there to rebuild.

40:17I wasn't totally sure what that meant. So as long as she doesn't attack Trump directly, she focuses on issues. Maybe she thinks she's got more power and flexibility from the outside because like everybody hates Congress and she'd be like, I hate it so much. I quit. Yeah. I think people, most people believe understandably so that motivating almost every politician is like a drive for power and attention. And I think it's very possible that, you know, she broke with Trump. She started getting some shit. She broke again and she started getting threats. And maybe she just thought, I don't care if I have more power the next year in Congress.

40:57I don't care that I have more months on my term. I just want out and I don't want to deal with this and I don't want to deal with the public eye. and I just want to, that's it. And in some of the reporting, I noticed that some people close to her said, this is not a shtick. She's not running. She's out of politics. She's stepping away. She's done. And maybe it was just too much for her. And maybe there's like no explanation deeper than that. Maybe not, but it's one possibility. Yeah, I mean, who knows? Right now, I really just like, I thought I'm going to approach this cynically. And I was like, there's just really no hints anywhere about what she would do.

41:35She said she's not running for president. She said she wouldn't run for Senate. She's not running for governor. And then in the, she put out a longer post when she was tamping down the suggestion she was gonna run for president. She said the fact that I'd have to go through all that, but would be totally blocked from truly fixing anything is exactly why I would never do it. And it's a very defeatist. Yeah. It's just not the statement a politician normally makes. Cynicism won. Yeah, but I did come away at the end. I thought, all right, I have no idea. I don't know Marjorie Taylor Greene's mind.

42:05She's surprised me at every turn. But it is what I thought when I got to the end of it is like, maybe she's not running for something, but there is a kind of - Maybe she's running from something. Well, for sure, for sure. But I did come away with it thinking, this is sort of what you say if you are thinking about starting some kind of like a media company or some kind of a public facing anti-establishment, not pro-Trump, but MAGA post-Trump something. She's got that boyfriend who's gonna have a tougher time asking questions in the Oval Office than he used to. They seem happy. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

42:46They got the shirtless pics going. So many. So I don't know. That was what I said. Maybe this is like, the net will see her and say, look, you can either be the hero or you live long enough to become a podcast host. You know what I'm saying? And so I do think there's - Yeah, because you know what happens. It's like maybe genuinely in her mind right now, she's thinking, I'm done for good. Then you get home to Georgia and you're in your house and you're really quiet. Pretty quiet. It's pretty quiet. Takes piling up by the front door. You look at those takes and you're like, maybe I could do something to get back into this.

43:18Or maybe not. But the other part of this that's so strange, though, is all of the going hard on Epstein, that all fits, right? She did have a kind of like eat, pray, love, kindness turn as well at the end. Yeah. Post Charlie Kirk. And then from that to go just I'm out. Like that's why I just feel like I don't I don't know. The whole thing is still the truth. Always the truth makes sense so far. I don't think this entirely makes sense. It was not lost on anyone that MTG's announcement came just hours after Trump appeared in the Oval with Zohran Mamdani and couldn't stop gushing over the guy he'd previously been calling a communist lunatic.

43:52We have a longer reaction to the Trump-Mamdani meeting on Friday that you can check out on the Pod Save America YouTube channel. But seeing the reaction from MAGA World since then has been interesting, to say the least. The Fox News chyrons quickly switched from showdown with socialism to the one I saw today was just Trump and Mamdani vow to work on affordability. It's like, wow, this is different. But quite a few mega politicians and influencers weren't as willing to go along with Trump's change of heart. everyone from Elise Stefanik, who was thrown right under the bus by Trump in the meeting, to Laura Loomer, to Nick Fuentes, who said the friendly meeting is proof that Trump and MAGA are hypocrites who, quote, don't believe anything they're peddling.

44:34What have you guys made of the reaction to the meeting? I mean, I just continue to be amazed by how positive it was and the reaction was generally. I mean, I think Zoran Mondani got huge credit for it. I did see some like super, super lefty types attacking him for, I guess, capitulating and not taking to the streets and protesting Trump. I think that probably speaks to why Zoran Mandani is in elected office now and has the capacity to do things to help people and why some others to his left are not. But I don't know. I hope Trump gets hammered for this. I do like if it adds to the MAGA divide.

45:07I think he's mostly just a guy who loves love and loves the press and was happy with that combo you know well loves praise yeah he does yeah for sure or felching for sure for sure sort of a political felching the uh i'm sorry i said that the i started in my bed the i i think like if the the one the one thing that i think will linger on his side is they really were gonna make mom donnie the villain or one of the villains in the midterms and i think they can still do that like there's a oh no trump's you know he's defying the attack and i think it is makes it a less potent attack. But I think they can still attack Democrats as socialists.

45:41They've never run out of ink to do that. But if you're like a House Republican and you already feel as though you're on edge, you're maybe going to lose your job, you're worried about the upcoming health care votes, you're just feeling like put upon and unloved. And then you turn on the television, there's Donald Trump chumming it up with the person that you all thought was going to be public enemy number one. It's got to add insult to injury. Yeah. Big time. I'm sure they're not happy. No, no. Which is nice. Elise Stefanik was, I think she posted like, well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one because he's still a jihadist.

46:18Right, right. Yeah. And that's also just the whole thing is all so embarrassing, right? Because it's like, it's like Elise Stefanik put on the clown suit because Trump loves clowns. And he's like, I want to see these clowns dance around. And now she's a sad clown. Right. Well, yeah, sure. But then it's like he like is in the Oval Office being like, I don't like clowns anymore. I like this guy. And she's like, what? It's like sucks. Also, like, fuck you, Elise Stefanik. Like you made your cause, right? Going after colleges for not combating anti-Semitism. And then you call this man a jihadist, which is the most like blatant, disgusting form of Islamophobia I've heard in a long time.

47:00So you're a terrible person. You were a moderate who decided to go all in on MAGA. Trump doesn't like you. The moderates don't like you anymore. I can't wait to watch you lose your election. You got played by Trump. You got played by Zoran. Take your bigoted bullshit somewhere else. You suck. Yeah. Nice. Take that. Back to the Kennedy school for you, Elise Stefanik. Enjoy your semester there. Where all the war criminals go. Fuck you. You get McKinsey. You get the Kissinger blah, blah, blah. Professorship or something. Yeah. So more serious frustration with Trump in the White House is brewing in Congress as well.

47:33Well, on Monday, Punchbowl quoted a very riled up unnamed senior House Republican. Oh, no. Who, and this is in light of the MTG stuff, who said that, quote, nearly all House Republicans are, quote, more upset than ever with the White House and Mike Johnson and essentially called the White House team arrogant. Imagine that. That same senior House Republican also hinted that, quote, more explosive early resignations are coming, calling the situation a tinderbox. Hard to be hard to not be gleeful reading that. But how real do you think this is? How much of an impact could it have on Trump's agenda and or the midterms next year?

48:09It is funny that we've waited till now for to speak out against the fact that the the White House has been treating Republicans in Congress like they are White House staffers. Well, yeah, probably not helpful. These quotes where they where Trump says that the Congress doesn't really matter anymore. Now that they did the one beautiful bill that he rules Congress with an iron fist. You had Steve Bannon referring to it as the Duma. So the current majority is two nineteen to thirteen. Marjorie leaves. It's two eighteen to thirteen. Three special elections coming up. You have Cheryl seat. You have Turner seat.

48:44Abbott held that one open for the better part of a year so that we wouldn't get one more. Tennessee, it's hopeful. Let's say we lose it. Hope we win it. Could win it. It's going to be hard. Let's say we lose it. You're at 219, 215. That means they can only lose two people, right? That goes from a house that could pass something like the big, beautiful bill that a house that couldn't. If there really are other potential retirements, plural, if you have two more retirements, you're at 217, 215. That means Thomas Massey personally decides anything that the Republicans can do in Congress without Democrats.

49:17Donald Trump, we're going to talk about the health care proposal, the inconceivable that that could pass without Democratic votes. So all of this means that in the next year, Democrats just have more power. And by the way, the other tension here is this quote, right? Like this is information, right? Like maybe a bunch of House Republicans are talking to each other about whether or not they're going to leave early. But now all House Republicans know that all House Republicans saw that a bunch of them are talking to Jake Sherman about leaving early. Nobody wants to be the guy that hands the gavel to Hakeem Jeffries.

49:48So get it. Like, this is like, I don't know what Mike Johnson, his Thanksgiving is fucked because if you're thinking about retiring early, you don't want to wait because all of a sudden you don't want to be the last one out before you're the one that has to decide to hand the gavel over to the Democrats or go to split committee. So it's, um, I don't get too excited about what could happen with these numbers, but, but let's just say I could write a, I could write a nice poem to Olivia Nazi about it. This sort of proves Trump right about one thing, which is you show just a little bit of weakness.

50:15You lose just one issue, one vote, one off your election, and the whole fucking thing can start crumbling down. Because they, for how long now have all these Republicans basically acceded to the fact that they were going to just be a satellite office of the White House? And Mike Johnson did not think that his obligation was to his caucus. he thought it was to keep Donald Trump happy no matter what even when he didn't agree with him even when you could tell he didn't enjoy lying for him but he just did it because he knew he needed to keep Trump happy and most of the and all the Republicans went along with him and now that they're starting to you know see some weakness here and and see that you see the poll numbers now they're all like oh wait a minute maybe maybe we should not have hitched our entire future to this guy who is leaving in 2028.

51:02Yeah. Well, this is look like any kind of like effort to have control. It looks stronger than it is. But if your politics requires you never being weak in a democracy, even one that is as flawed and broken as slip and slipping away as ours, it's brittle. It's brittle. And the whole thing can fall down around you because these are just human beings. They didn't sign on to be vassals for Donald Trump. And they may do it for the I mean, they did it. They did. They're going to do it. Right. They're political creatures and they have egos and they have incentives. But they're still people. It is even in the in the most if you take the most cynical view.

51:41Right. It's is it better now to be a Republican politician when you could also just be a MAGA influencer? Like I think you could make more money as a MAGA influencer. You could definitely you get more attention. So like what is the what is the benefit of being in Congress? A lot of these guys, you go a couple steps down the call sheet, they don't have the talent. They can't do it. They can't do it. That's fair. But I mean, like if being in Congress sucks now, wait till you're in the minority and you can't get anything done. And you're just fundraising and like defending impeachment. I mean, MTG talked about like having to defend another Trump impeachment.

52:15She's right. That'll almost certainly happen. But yeah, I mean, Speaker Johnson, the knives are out for that guy. And it's fun to watch. I mean, he thought that he and Trump had the covenanized settings at the same level. It turns out Trump had him off from, you know, 5 p.m. until morning. Yeah, and I'm sure once he doesn't have the speaker role anymore, Trump will treat him just like he treats Kevin McCarthy. You know, like those two have never been closer now. I'm just picturing Mike Johnson showing up at Monday with everybody to work like, I brought donuts and it's pizza, bringing back pizza Wednesdays.

52:44Pajama Fridays. Trust falls. Hawaiian shirt Fridays. On the subject of Republican defections, the party is still figuring out how to handle the health care premium hikes that are about to hit 20 million Americans on January 1st. This is, of course, because the Affordable Care Act subsidies are set to expire after Trump and Republicans in Congress refused to work with Democrats to extend them. But there was news over the weekend that Trump was preparing to release his own plan this week, which would reportedly be a two year extension of the subsidies with new income based limits on who would qualify and a minimum premium payment required for everyone.

53:19The White House apparently forgot to consult with Republicans in Congress, as they are wont to do. And now the entire proposal is on hold because of reactions like this from an anonymous House Republican who told MS Now. You know it's bad if they're going to MS Now. That's part of this that made me wonder. And the quote from the anonymous House Republican is, I wasn't expecting the proposal to be Obamacare-lite. Absolutely not supportive of extending ACA subsidies. And there's all this reporting that they did. the White House did pull back the proposal from this week because there was so much of a backlash among Republicans in Congress.

53:54Too bad, bitches. You've anchored the negotiation. What do you guys think of the proposal itself? I mean, I think my big takeaway is I'll believe it when I see it. I mean, we've been, you know, getting a plan to repeal and replace since 2015. I think in 2020, he started giving us the two-week countdown. And here we are, 2025. I guess it's good that he knows it's a political disaster. I would love to see him extend the ACA premiums. I do think it's the things they're focused on are so weird. Like they're worried about this ghost premium issue. So they're trying to eliminate basically zero cost premiums because they think that they'll root out fraud if you make people pay like five bucks a month or something.

54:29If there's broker fraud or something they're really worried about, go after the brokers. I don't totally understand this obsession, but I just, I don't know how you get this for Congress. I just, I don't get it. Yeah. So I saw the the the the details that are leaked of what they were proposing. And then I kind of went looking around because it was sort of seemed better than what it should be, to be honest. Like it's not Obamacare light, whatever that means. It is a reminder that Donald Trump has put himself in a terrible political situation because rather than proposing while the while the subsidies were in place, a Republican reform that people could have gotten behind.

55:06It is now undoing the elimination of the subsidies. So it changes the politics of it for him. But I think the fact that you have a bunch of Republicans in the House saying that this is not something they want to be a part of, and you have Gene Shaheen saying, this is a great jumping off point, I think gives you a sense of what the politics are. So some House Democrats, I think rightfully for the purposes of negotiation being like, this is fucking disgusting. And we can't, we got, but, but in the grand scheme of things, like had this been what came out of say the shutdown, we would have described that as an incredible.

55:35Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So the first thing to be aware of is that it is only dealing with the enhanced subsidies. Right. And so it's not touching any of the rest of the Affordable Care Act, which is important to mention because Trump and other Republicans seem to suggest at various points in the last couple of weeks that maybe they were going to do a whole new plan or a whole replacement plan. So it's just the extended subsidies. And what they would do is if you did that minimum premium payment, there's an estimate from, I think, Kaiser that a million fewer people could be enrolled in Obamacare.

56:07So a million people could lose their health insurance, which is obviously not great. It is much better than the 20 million people who would get hit with premium hikes. And by the way, that's an estimate based on people who'd be willing to pay the premium. The detail matters, how big of a monthly premium is this? If it's a small amount, people might go for it, et cetera, et cetera. And if you say now that people over 700 % of the poverty line can't aren't eligible for the subsidies. Well, that sounds like 700 sounds like a big number, but that's like you're getting to like 55,$60 ,000 a year. And so if you're a family, you're making 75,$80 ,000 a year, and now you're not getting the extended subsidies, like that hurts them too.

56:44So it's not, I would not say it's great, but if faced between, if faced with the choice between that plan and nothing, like I still think you'd want that plan, But also, to your point, Lovett, I can't imagine. It's bad, but it seems too good for especially House Republicans to get behind it. Here's what I don't understand. I can see something like this getting through the Senate. And I think this does feel like a Senate deal that they try to jam the House with. I think you would lose some House Republicans. And as we just discussed, they don't have a lot of room for error. So then the only way it could pass would be with Democratic votes.

57:23I think you would get Democrats that would vote for a plan like this. I mean, it is a two-year extension that kicks the issue down the road, ostensibly so that they can finally unveil their big plan. But we know no such plan exists. So really what this does is create a new baseline for future extensions. And I do think it's one that Democrats would live with. And a great, given that we have control over no houses of Congress, would speak to A, how well Democrats did in making health care the issue. and be just how bereft of ideas Republicans have been on health care because they're just trying to figure it out now.

57:56And like one of the ideas in there is to have some money go into health savings accounts. OK, right. Like they just when push comes to shove, they're either going to do something that a bunch of right wingers don't like, or they're going to do something fucking heinous that the country won't like. And so they've been they've been stuck for a long time. All right. Before we get to my interview with Summer Lee, we're going to take a quick dumpster dive into the tabloid drama involving RFK Jr. and his alleged affair with political journalist Olivia Nuzzi, who's already released some excerpts from her forthcoming memoir, American Canto, about the whole thing.

58:29And the upcoming release of the memoir has then prompted Newsy's ex-fiance, political journalist Ryan Lizza, to tell his side of the story in a multi-part series on his new substack. The first installment from Lizza accused Newsy in a highly cinematic twist at the end of The Post of also having an affair with former South Carolina governor Mark Sanford when he was running in the primary back in 2020 against Donald Trump. The second installment, which dropped on Saturday, fast forwards to 2024 when Lizza, he doesn't say how, discovered erotic poetry that Kennedy had sent Newsy. Where would you guys like to begin and how graphic shall we get?

59:12I mean, we've been making felching jokes all day, so go for it. Go all in. Let's go. Yeah, the poem, Lizza says that the poems many too explicit to print changed everything. And then in parentheses says, thanks to Bobby, I am now aware of something called felching. This is from now I'm quoting from the New York Post story about felching. Of course, there was one. Felching is the term used for when one sexual partner sucks semen out of another partner's anus or vagina following unprotected penetrative sex. according to the National Institute of Health, which RFK Jr. leads as part of his top role at HHS.

59:49I just loved the gilding the lily there in the post story about how we had to connect then the NIH definition to HHS. Hey, here's a question. How did Doge not get whatever website defines felching for the government? You saved some pennies on that one? I feel like that is something we could have left to the private sector. This whole thing, man. It's just so rare to see two people both lean into a PR disaster. You know what I mean? Like usually the concept of mutually assured destruction restrains both sides. They've taken a very different tack. There's been some interesting think pieces about how the kind of modern media world incentivizes you to go all in and put it all out there and that gets you money and that gets you notoriety.

1:00:33But wow, it's been tough. It's a tough read. First of all, I just want to say I am a new subscriber to Ryan Liz's Substack and I'm proud to give him the$10 a month. Really? I think he's earned it. I think he's doing incredible work. That is the, honestly, in the history of Substack, I'm curious what has had more conversion than these two posts. Yeah, from edition one to the Felching edition. Just the saying, what I'm about to share with all of you is so embarrassing, but I'm doing it for the sake of journalism. By the way, she did this with Mark Sanford Furck, click here to subscribe. Like, yeah, I'm yes, Ryan.

1:01:13I am in Ryan. This is what it's for. Thank you for doing subset. What I, yeah, I mean, I guess I could subscribe to message box and find out what the polls mean. I gotta say what, one thing I learned from all of this is that, um, editors are very important. These are two individuals who are supposed to be some of the best writers of their generation who have written some, some, some pretty excellent stuff in the good things but uh i think great editors prevent extended bamboo metaphors they probably prevent self-immolation they probably prevent uh annoyingly referring to the person you're talking about as the politician when we all know the person's name was robert f kennedy jr yeah i i i would like to separate i think these are two distinct like i i feel as though like the the liza posts are um making lemonade, you know, substack lemonade.

1:02:04Because look, I don't, but the American canto, I don't know, first of all, what is a canto? Is a poem of some kind? I don't know what that is. It's a word British people can say, but we use it very well. Yeah. But the excerpts of the Newtze book are very indulgent and a bit overwritten and kind of lyrical, but then you're like, wait, what is this about? This is about fucking RFK? What are we talking about? We're talking about a fucking RFK? I don't want to slut shame anybody. I feel like RFK Jr. is getting off here in a way. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh, you mean politically? Yeah, metaphorically, yeah.

1:02:44In a way that, like, he is the fucking health and human services secretary. Like, as much as everyone wants to talk about Ryan and Olivia, you know, it doesn't really matter all that much, right? Like, that is their private lives. And I realized that Ryan has a sub stack and Olivia has now been hired by Vanity Fair, who's now looking into all of these surprising revelations that Lizza has aired. Fine media story, I guess. But like, but like RFK Jr. sitting at HHS telling us that the vaccines cause autism as he's writing poems about felching. The other thing, too, is, first of all, everyone's entitled to a private life, including Secretaries of Health and Human Services.

1:03:22But he has issued some pretty strong denials that seem to be contradicted by what we're learning, because I don't know whether or not. It does seem like he has a troubled past with the truth. for sure because it's not just that they've asserted that there was no sexual relationship like he made like kind of went even further to be like i don't even know this person or no that's i'm paraphrasing he lied he pretty clearly lied about all this yeah he's look i agree he's the bigger issue him being a liar and there was an incredible contrast over the weekend of all of this swirling around and then tatiana schlossberg uh his relative was a sister it's it's his it's his niece sorry wrote this beautiful piece the new yorker that everyone should read about her battle with leukemia that got into the way decisions he is making at HHS will make it harder for her to get treatment.

1:04:09It will make it harder to find cures in the future. It's like beautifully done and brilliant. I do think - I'm sorry, it may be her cousin. It's her cousin because Caroline's cousin is RFK. Either way, just read it. It's excellent. I do think there were some ethical questions around Olivia's relationship with Robert F. Kennedy that were not really grappled with. Like the New York Times style section piece about her book, just kind of yada yada right past that and didn't really touch it. I was like, it feels like this is actually a kind of significant question if you are dating the person you're covering and then according to Ryan Lizard writing them strategy memos for their campaign and providing advice.

1:04:45And he has also accused her in the second substack of catch and kill operations on his behalf, that she was engaged in catch and kill operations on RFK Jr.'s behalf and other journalistic transgressions that have still not been disclosed in addition to the strategy memos thing. How are we not subscribing to this fucking thing? Yes,$9.99, Ryan Lizza. There you go. And then she said to Lizza, apparently, allegedly, that she was afraid if anyone found out about their affair that Bobby would kill her. Oh, yeah, that's a big deal. We probably did that. Well, because that's the cliffhanger for the next installment.

1:05:21Again, we're all just, the felching has taken up a lot of... Yeah, a lot of space in my brain, yeah. Also, Mark Sanford still exists. hadn't thought about him in a while keith olberman fucking inserted himself into this whole story too i didn't i didn't even see the keith open posting i didn't get to the i didn't see oh my god he was post because because in there he dated olivia at some point and so ryan writes about that and of course olberman jumps in on the twitters but then he also you know gives an interview to the new york times you know talking more about it yes good more yeah this is also weird and then I just remembered Cheryl Hines did that weird interview with - Podcast sensation Katie Miller.

1:06:01Katie Miller. Stephen Miller's wife, where this kind of came up, and she was attacking Olivia and defending Robert Kennedy. All 11 viewers were horrified. Yeah, and he just seems like an awful guy. Did you guys know that Geraldo Rivera wrote a memoir in 1991 with the title Exposing Myself that detailed all of his exploits? Anything about felching in there? I got to read it now. Wow. I just, you know, it's nice to have a media storyline. Like the monoculture is dead. You know, it's nice to have something like this where it's like, yeah, ultimately this is the person in charge of, say, vaccine schedules.

1:06:35And that's a bummer. But other than that, the stakes feel kind of low. You know, like, I don't know why I get to know all this stuff, but it's out there. I'm going to read it. Yeah, it's a lot of good stuff. Relationships are hard. They are. Relationships are hard. Especially now. Especially. When do you think part three drops? I don't know. I don't know. Can you send it to us now? I will. Because you're a subscriber. I'll send you a gift. Well, there were some Google Docs going around over the weekend. I'm sure you guys got sent those. I felt a little unapriced. I don't believe in stealing content.

1:07:06I support creators like Ryan Lizza. I will say, though, I had a choice between a yearly subscription or monthly. And I was like, buddy, listen, I don't know where we're going to be after this fucking story's ending, but I don't know if I'm going to be paying you anymore. All right. Sorry, Ryan Lizza. I think ultimately, I'm glad you're telling your story, but a couple months from now, am I paying Telos? Was there like a founding Felcher option? Yeah, there was. You get access to insider Felching news before any of the rest of the community quarterly Zooms with the Felching Advisory Board. This is...

1:07:46We did this to ourselves. This is who gives us health advice. yeah this is makes big decisions and hires and fires people and testifies for congress he's worried about all the lies to them yeah all the impunities and all this like you know forget about red 40 how about you're fucking out there falchion yeah i also just like what what is the appeal this guy's throwing off rfk jr it's unbelievable yeah yeah i don't see it is it the poetry? It's the poetry. Hopefully we'll find more of the poetry. Anyway, we'll do a live reading if it warrants it. Okay, when we get back from the break, you'll hear my conversation.

1:08:24With who? Who's our conversation with? Poor Congresswoman Summer Lee, who just came here to talk about a very serious issue, ice overreach in American cities. She was here in Los Angeles Monday for a field hearing with the Oversight Committee and Karen Bass and other LA officials. She's going to tell me all about that and lots more. But before we get to that, quick reminder that through November 30th, we're offering 25 % off annual subscriptions to Friend of the Pod. If you haven't spent all your money on T-Los. I have such an idea. Oh no. I'm not even going to do it now. I have an idea. Subscribe, subscribe.

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1:11:07Congresswoman Summer Lee, welcome to the pod. Oh, so excited. Thanks for having me. Of course. For people who don't know, you represent Pennsylvania's 12th District, which is in and around Pittsburgh. Yeah. You're also on the Oversight Committee in the House. And you're in town for a joint hearing with L.A. officials and Democrats on the House Oversight Committee about federal agents' abuse of immigrants and U.S. citizens. Hugely important issue I want to get to in a minute. But first, a lot of news I want to get your thoughts on. starting with the rather sudden resignation announcement from your house colleague, Marjorie Taylor Greene.

1:11:42I know you probably haven't agreed with her on too much. It's just an understatement to start. But you've been on the same side when it comes to pushing for the release of the Epstein files, opposing military aid to Israel, potential military action in Venezuela. Do you see figures like Greene and other disaffected MAGA types as voters who may be gettable for Democrats going forward? Open to persuasion, perhaps? What an interesting question. You know, honestly, I'm not going to pretend that I'm the person to know. I am a natural skeptic, right? I came, like, when I was in Congress, I was in the statehouse.

1:12:19I've been in the minority my whole time, which means that I have seen many a Republican, you know, talk a good game, say they believe something behind closed doors, and when the web cracks, you know, they fall in line. So it takes a little bit more for me to believe that somebody is persuadable or gettable. But we all love hope. We all like a glimmer. I believe, look, at the end of the day, whatever gets you on the right side of history, even if it's just like you're teetering and you come over for a second, I do think it's worth, you know, I think the opt-in is worthwhile. So I do believe in creating an opt-in and not an opt-out.

1:12:52But I also think that the real mark of whether some of these people are really serious about a break is, you know, if they are willing to also acknowledge harm that they've done. Right. They did not live and she has not lived as like, you know, a figure who has not actually caused any problem. Like, no, like her policies are the implication there. So, like, I'm happy that she's seen the light. I'm sorry that, you know, her own tactics are being used against her by the president. I'm sorry that that's happening. I hope that she realizes that, you know, this was a terrible thing to inflict on other people.

1:13:27But what does she do now to make up for it? What does she do now that she is if she has seen the light? That's what I'm looking for right now. But one way or another, we do need more people. And we are going to have to find a way as Democrats to appeal to people, to appeal to their better sense, to help them help them to see and deprogram some folks. Right. Because if we're if we're saying that there is a bit of a cult over there, then we also have to say that we're committed to helping people be recommitted over to the side of justice. So speaking of strange bedfellows, I'd love to get your take on Zoran Mamdani's meeting with Trump on Friday.

1:14:01So I saw a few versions of this take from Ryan Grimm, which was amplified by a senior Mamdani advisor. And it says, quote, Trump and Mamdani giving the country a vision of what bottom versus top rather than left versus right politics could look like is, if not historic, a genuinely novel development. Do you agree? What do you make of that? I agree that that's what Zoran's probably doing. Yeah. And honestly, no, you know what? I will say just as somebody who probably shared, you know, who's on this, you know, the side of the party with Mamdani. Right. My whole big thing is that I don't believe that people like organize their lives and their politics on this left right linear.

1:14:38Yeah. Right. It is. It's like the people who have the corporations, the power and the people who don't. And I think that that is a better orientation. It is a part of the plan of helping more people opt in. I don't think that Trump is doing that. I don't think that he's doing that. I don't know. I don't know if Trump even had a plan when that man came in. Yeah. What did you make of him being like showering him with praise? You know what? I don't know if I'm shocked. He's a shallow guy. Yeah. Like, he's kind of shallow, kind of vain. Like, kind of vain. So, like, if a charismatic guy is smiling at him, and Lord knows, he smiles, man.

1:15:16Yeah. He does a lot of smiling, like, when he talks. Like, he'll tell somebody something. He'll deliver bad news with a wonderful smile on his face. Yeah. Like, it's a part of the charisma. So, I'm not shocked, you know, that, you know, Trump would be receptive to something like that. I don't know. I won't say I'm not shocked. But I guess I'm not, that he would be receptive to something like that. And I do think that he's getting his ass kicked on affordability right now. Like, really. And as we do get closer to midterms, you know, they are going to have to—they're either going to have to—whatever their plans are for the country, right?

1:15:47Their authoritarian, you know, fascist plans, whatever they are. If they include, you know, keeping and maintaining the majority, then they're going to have to start to be responsive to the fact that nothing has changed fundamentally unless it has gotten worse on affordability. It struck me that every time it's mentioned that there's potential overlap with right-wing populism and left-wing populism, it always seems like the right-wing populism, at least on the economic front, is to date been completely fake. I think from the leaders, yeah. Yeah, there's been rhetorical nods to it for sure. I have seen very few Republicans actually get behind sort of economically populist proposals.

1:16:32It seems like a lot of the populism is cultural identity around immigration and things like that. So, yeah, I don't know if bottom versus top, if Trump is really part of the grassroots. Yeah, that's what a funny thing to say of a man who we know is if we say that people are corporate capture, He is the corporate. Yeah. Right. He didn't even have to be captured because he is already of that culture. Yeah. Right. That's already his you know, that's already his social, you know, kind of peers. And that's where he comes from. So, no, I will never there is nothing that he could do or say that would convince me that he cares about, you know, folks in the social underclasses.

1:17:12Right. We know that we know that from every single policy that he has. Even the part that we're talking about, the affordability, I do not think is something that he is doing benevolently. This is something that he is doing because he's getting pressure from members of his party and the House right now who know that they have to run, every single one of them, all have to run on this record. They have to run on the fact that he has spent an entire year just governing by executive order, not really giving any consideration to any of the – Because I think that some of them still expect to get something done.

1:17:46They're like, well, we have the White House. We expect some money to flow into our district. We expect some projects. None of that is happening. And I think that you're starting to see things leaking out about people feeling that way there. I think the only reason why he would care about affordability is that part. I mean, there's been so many takes about Mamdani's win. And, you know, a lot of people say, OK, well, yeah, Democratic Socialists winning in liberal New York City is maybe understandable. But, you know, the rest of the country. I mean, how liberal is it, though? I mean, they have Rudy Giuliani and like Mike Bloomberg.

1:18:19I mean, I was going to say that, you know, you you were former DSA member. You won in, you know, it's a bluer district. Washington, Pennsylvania. But still Pittsburgh and surrounding Pittsburgh. It's not Manhattan. Not at all. And I wonder if you had some thoughts to share on sort of the voters that you've met in your district and how they've responded to someone with progressive views like yours and whether, you know, and I know, you know, when you first came to Congress, it was 22. But like affordability, was that still a big issue with the voters in your district? Yeah, no, I think it's always that, right?

1:18:55Nothing's ever affordable enough. And it just so happened that we are also in a crisis now. So I think that that is always an undercurrent, you know, in politics and campaigns. And yeah, so to be clear, you know, I represent all of the city of Pittsburgh and it's still less than half of my district. I actually am a majority suburban district. I even have, you know, excerpts. So like the county that Pittsburgh is in, Allegheny County, is probably a bluer county. But I actually go into another county that has been, I have gone to Westmoreland County, right, that has performed, you know, Trump, you know, pretty, you know, consistently.

1:19:30and persistently. So I do get to talk to very different people, you know, on the same day, right? I can go, you know, to a black neighborhood in the Mon Valley, right? Historic still, right? Historic labor. We had a lot of, you know, a lot of labor folks. This is, this is the home of the labor movement, home of U.S. Steel, home of, you know, all that, that kind of hard hat, you know, very, it's a very cultural, labor is a cultural thing there. You know, we talk to those folks and we'll talk to somebody in Westmoreland County, right? We'll talk to people, you know, We talk about the same things from the time that I was in the statehouse to now.

1:20:02I've talked about in some way using the language that makes sense for folks to talk about the things that matter. Right. That, you know, in our country, the wealthiest on earth, you know, our kids shouldn't have a they should have a quality education. It should be free. Right. That you should be able to go to the doctor. You should have health care. Right. That, you know, our air quality big in our region. Right. A lot of like presidential candidates think that you got to come to Western Pennsylvania and you got to talk about cracking and fracking and you'll knock on the door. And they'll be like, yeah, we don't want that.

1:20:30It's like a disconnect that people don't understand. So, yeah, there is still that kind of that blue collar pride about Western Pennsylvania. And I think that that populist message resonates there more than anywhere. I think that people fundamentally want for themselves, even if they haven't gotten to the point of wanting for other people, they want for themselves. Right. That thing that is the American dream. They want for themselves the ability to, you know, buy a house, you know, grow wealth, you know, be safe, be healthy. They want that. And that's what we talk about. And we keep our message to that.

1:20:58And I think that people, when they are not persuaded by like multimillion dollar ads saying that we're monsters. Yeah. When they're not confronted with that, we've seen by polling, we've seen through our conversations that people want what we are what we're talking about. And they want to be a part of creating that even even in my district. So there's lots of concern out there, including for me, that despite the overwhelming vote in Congress, Trump's DOJ is going to keep slow walking and potentially withholding anything in the Epstein files that makes Trump look bad. What's your level of confidence that we're going to get everything?

1:21:31You know, first of all, we I know a lot of people have people have been tuned in for quite a while. So this, you know, the discharge petition. So the now Epstein Transparency Act going and immediately straight to his desk and getting signed. Right. I think people are tuning back in. But we did get a subpoena, you know, three months ago. We were able to force that vote in my in my subcommittee. We're on the ranking member. We were able to get Republicans to vote with us. And I think that that got the ball rolling. And the DOJ has been slow walking it since then. Yeah. So even all this good talk that Trump's doing about I'll sign it, you know, or I'll let releasing Republicans to vote for.

1:22:08He wasn't releasing them. That man is reading, you know, the tides. Yeah. Right. He's wanted this to go away for so long. And I think that this is one of the first issues that he has not been able to make disappear. Right. Whatever scandal he has had or whatever, you know, lie he has told the people. Right. His base has mostly if he says he didn't do it, he didn't do it. Right. If he says that he's going to get around to it, he's going to get around to it. Right. They mostly just said, let's let's move back. This is this is one instance where it has not died down. We've had the longest government shutdown in history.

1:22:39Right. We've had all year and people are still, if not more than ever, demanding that these be released. So I think that they're going to continue to try to slow walk it. But we have actually subpoenas from the estate. A lot of people are obviously the DOJ has the most. They have they have whatever. If there is a smoking gun, they have the real investigation. But but the estate has they have a lot. We've seen the birthday book. We've seen the email. All those things came from the estate. We're now got we just now got subpoenas to two of the banks that we need. Right. These are important parts of the investigation.

1:23:12And the slow drip is making more. I think it's making people more apprehensive like they want more of it. So, no, I don't think he'll be able to have forever. And at the end of the day, if he makes it to the end of his term, a Democrat takes over. That's a Democratic DOJ. At some point, the truth is going to come out. The wealthy and the powerful will be held accountable in this case. And I think that they are really unaccustomed to facing that reality. And if they say, if Bondi says, well, there's an ongoing investigation, so of course we have to withhold while the investigation is ongoing. That's the point.

1:23:45Can you take a look forward at some point? Is there legal recourse? So that's a really good question. And I think that we are going to have to explore that. Right. Because it is like the subpoena that we got back in July. Yeah. That was signed, I think, in maybe early August. That was legally that was as legally binding as the discharge resolution, the bill that came from that. So they are compelled. They really are compelled to do it. And I think that that's why it's so important that we don't let them off the hook. I think so many people are looking for like the next kind of organizing tactic around it.

1:24:15Like, you know, it's great that we have the full body unanimously, except for one guy. Yeah. Right. Pushing in that direction. But we need the people to not let up on him. Right. To not let up on his DOJ because this is obstruction at this point. Right. So, you know, we do a way, you know, they had the excuse. Oh, it's a shutdown. You know, the shutdown is over. So I think there's going to be an opportunity. They talked about how big, how much there is, any time. Obviously, they're pushing it. They're not pushing it. They're not pushing it. They've been pushed it, right? But no, I think that we're going to have to look at every avenue because at the end of the day, if we allow the DOJ to not respond to subpoenas, what does that say about our legal processes?

1:24:57Again, this is endemic in the entire thing, the entire timeline of Epstein and Glenn Maxwell's crimes. The obstruction is a part of it. And the DOJ now playing this critical of a role in it, I think, speaks precisely to why people are like, well, what is there? What on earth is there that we're going through these lines? What are you trying so hard to hide? Precisely. Let's talk about the ICE hearing that brought you here to L.A. What was the goal of conducting a hearing out here and what did you learn from it? Yeah. So, I mean, I know that it might not get as much news anymore. The news ebbs and flows if it's not Epstein.

1:25:32But, you know, the way that Trump has been administering this, you know, his immigration enforcement policy has been just, I mean, inhumane to unconstitutional. Right. That has been the spectrum. L.A. is, of course, you know, that was it was the epicenter. Right. This is where, you know, he started his test case. Right. To bring in federal forces, you know, to a city to to essentially unleash them on American people. you know the tactics that they that they've used we've seen american citizens being detained including one who spoke to us today you know it has been it's been cruel and i think it's important that we even if comer will not call you know he's not going to call a hearing he's not going to conduct oversight on his administration we he's made that abundantly clear but we still have to do it in whatever way that we can do it so coming to here uh to hear from the people to directly their testimony to put it into the record, right?

1:26:26Today we launched from our committee, launched a database, you know, a dashboard that will track ICE abuse. It won't just, it'll obviously track, you know, abuse that we're taking, but also allow people who are experiencing it to testify, you know, directly to the Democrats on the committee, creating a record, right? So whether, whenever we get into office, it's important that these things are documented so that we know where there were abuses of power, right? We know where there were unconstitutional actions, even if, you know, the checks and balances are failing. So we wanted to come here, right?

1:26:57We needed to come here because we need to, A, we need to send a message that we are not going to abide, you know, unconstitutional actions, even if the majority will. And we also have to let people know that an abuse that happens in one place, in one jurisdiction, is an abuse to all jurisdiction. If there is a lack of due process for some folks, then that is a threat to everybody. And we have to speak out about that. Yeah. Yeah. So the warrantless arrest, detentions, abuse we've seen from ICE and CBP, you know, they have received quite a bit of attention over the last year thanks to videos from eyewitnesses, court cases, protests, activists and leaders like yourself speaking out.

1:27:37It has dramatically changed public opinion on Trump's mass deportation agenda from where it was when he took office. But despite all of this, the administration seems like they don't give a shit and are not going to change course as long as Trump is president. You know, I see all that and I'm like, what can we do? Do we just have to wait until the end of Trump's term before hoping to see any kind of changes in this horrific policy? I mean, with so many things that he chooses to focus on. Right. There is that there is that piece where they do have these levers. They do hold these levers of power.

1:28:16But the waiting part, I don't think that I don't think that we should see it as waiting because part of the reason why we're here now is because honestly, Democrats lost, I would say, the messaging war, the narrative war around immigration. Right. We ceded ground to people who were always inclined to have, you know, a very inhumane view of immigration that is not their own their own bloodline, their own folks. Right. So once we lost that, right, that's how they were able to start to convince other Americans that these policies were necessary and that they're acceptable. So part of what we need to do right now is we have to win those folks back, too.

1:28:52Just as much as we have to be prepared to govern, to govern in a more humane way, we do need just humane immigration reform. Right. I think that there are things within our immigration process that we can acknowledge, including our own role. Right. Our own role and how we interact with the with the with the global community that causes, you know, immigration, causes refugee crises. We have to talk about all that. And we have to we in the meantime, we have to create and we have to put forth our vision for what is a better, more humane way of accepting people into our country, protecting people as they get here.

1:29:28But also, I would say that this goes hand in hand with our own criminal legal reform system, because both of them are, I would say, equally inhumane. And again, that we have an equally that we had an inhumane criminal legal system where we're locking up black and brown people, we're locking up disabled people and poor folks at the rate we are. We turned a blind eye to that for many, many years, and now we're seeing it with our immigration system, right? We have to solve both of those crises, and we have to build up. We have to organize. We have to do all this. It's not that we're doing nothing.

1:29:56It's not that we're doing nothing, but it's that we have to use the tools that we have, and we have to be honest about the fact that, yeah, it's going to be a difficult time right now. So knowing your rights, helping our organizations that are doing legal defense or organizations that are doing their know-your-rights or organizations that are protecting the community and serving the communities that are most targeted and most impacted. That's work right now. That's really meaningful. Last month, I spoke to George Redis, who's a U.S. citizen, served in Iraq, and he was up in Camarillo, north of here, and was detained by ICE, held for three days in solitary confinement.

1:30:30You know, no phone call to his family, no lawyer, didn't do a thing, wasn't charged with anything. And he went to D.C. and he'd been trying to get members of Congress to sign on to changes in legislation that right now the law protects federal agents from lawsuits if they engage in abuse that it doesn't protect other people from. But somehow federal agents have this like carve out in legislation. And so he was trying to get some some members of Congress to sign on to that. Do you think that's something that if, you know, Democrats get Congress back that you guys would want to pass? I would. I mean, you know, you think about this.

1:31:04There's a reason why. I mean, if we remember just from, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement, Breonna Taylor, you know, how dangerous like no-knock warrants are. If you were around then, you understand how dangerous it is to have, you know, just like ICE, you know, patrolling, maybe patrolling, you know, prowling, you know, masked. You know, they're in unmarked vehicles. They're, you know, we heard from somebody, multiple people today, who mentioned, you know, that they're essentially just pulling over anybody who even looks Latino. Right? That the courts then said that they can essentially discriminate.

1:31:37They can profile. That's dangerous. It's dangerous for every single person involved. But what does it mean to have a country where American citizens have to walk around with their passports? Because that's what we're seeing. What does it mean to have American citizens and immigrants in this country? And they're afraid to go to work. They're afraid to go to school. They're afraid that they may be killed in an interaction with ICE, as has happened. Right. People have been killed in interactions with ICE, having done nothing, having, you know, posing no danger. Right. This is such a dangerous moment.

1:32:10And certain like policies like that protecting ICE ages when they are blatantly on camera abusing people. Right. Obscuring their identity and not identifying themselves, though, making people, you know, making people, you know, submit to someone who they don't know who it is. right. That's just that's that is I just think that is so fundamentally so fundamentally wrong. So fundamentally unconstitutional. And obviously we need a real recalibration. So this is one law. Yeah. We need a recalibration totally. Yeah. We're a year out from the 2026 midterms. What would you like to see the Democratic Party and Democratic leadership do differently between now and the election to give the party the best possible chance of taking back the House and maybe the Senate?

1:32:49We don't have enough time to talk about that. Anything top of the list? Oh, my goodness. Let me try to organize my thoughts. We have so much. No, I am so worried that we are still learning the wrong lessons from the November election, last November election with Trump, this November's election with Mamdani, and you see other people like Spanberger and folks over in other places. I just think that we are chronically committed to learning the wrong lesson. Here's the thing that I hope that we would first do. Oh, my goodness. Yes. We talk a lot about messaging problems. We have a messenger problem.

1:33:27Right. There are some folks who are so disconnected from the everyday lived experience of your average person that it doesn't matter what consultant comes in and gives us a message. People want to see an authenticity. They want to know that we are choosing them. And I say this often. Right. The Democrats right now have to choose. We've been trying to straddle the fence, trying to serve two masters. And for so long, we've actually gotten away without having to choose. We can be the party of corporations and the party of people at the same time. But right now, in this moment, people are they see that they're they're they're over it.

1:34:04And I think that last election cycle, I think truly since 2016, you know, people have been, you know, increasingly calling for the Democrats to distinguish themselves and to choose. You cannot serve two masters. So I think if I had to say the first thing that I want Democrats to do different is choose your master. Who are we going to be? Who do we serve? You cannot serve. You cannot serve the oppressed and the oppressor. You can't serve the money and the many. You can't do both at the same time. So I think fundamentally that's what I would ask. Second, just as a personal thing, I would ask Democrats to be more courageous.

1:34:37If you have to get your clout, your claim to fame, if you can only get it, if you can only be relevant by punching left. And mind you, people will say that left are like, oh, the white left. No, I mean, in office, the left are overwhelmingly women of color. You know, if you can only make your case by harming us, by fighting us, by truly mischaracterizing us. Instead, you know, it seems like it's I do believe that they fight us sometimes more than they fight the Republicans, that they fight authoritarian, that they fight fashion, that they use that. If they kept that same energy with authoritarianism, would we be here?

1:35:13I don't think that we would. So I would like to see that as much as we understand that somebody who's running in a Virginia statewide, you know, has to run the way that they do. Why do they not believe that people in blue areas deserve to be represented, that black voters and Latino voters and urban voters also deserve to be represented? This is a representative democracy. Too often Democrats are in the chorus, lead soloists, right, telling urban voters, black voters that they have to sacrifice the representation that is actually helpful to them for some greater good. And it just the pendulum never swings our way.

1:35:50I think that we can be a party that just meets the basic needs of people without throwing away trans folks, without throwing away urban and black folks, without throwing away progressives. You can't say that we want to win and we want to beat Trump and also say, but I want to do it without you. Do you think if it's a messenger issue, do you feel good about the candidates Democrats have recruited to run in 26? Do Democrats recruit? That's an honest question. I guess maybe the candidates. I feel like they recruit themselves. The crop of candidates we have that are out there. Yeah, they just crop up.

1:36:25You know, I think that like with many election cycles, you know, people rise, you know, to the occasion. Every district is unique. Every district is every district has its idea of what it wants. But I think that whether your district is the the the the reddest of blue districts. I want to talk about Democrats, the reddest of blue districts are the bluest of blue districts. Right. I think that everybody wants to see people who are willing to speak up, who are transparent, who are present. Right. And who are who are willing to speak truth to power. That's not a centrist or left or a right thing.

1:36:56That's just like, that's a baseline. So I think that there are more candidates who are willing to do that. I do think that there's also been a reckoning about, you know, generational shifts. You know, Gen Z and millennials finally comprise the largest portion, you know, of the voting electorate. But we don't obviously, you know, we don't have proportional representation at any level of government. So there are more folks who are starting to come in. And we have different lived experiences. Like we've lived through different things. Right. Our politics are informed by just different conditions.

1:37:28And there is obviously a need, you know, for that sort of lived expertise and even professional expertise to be represented in government. So people are looking for that. And I'm not one of those people who says that all old folks should go again. Representative democracy. Right. I am the one to say, though, that if you find yourself in a moment where you're like, oh, my God, I really want to go back. I miss the days where me and my Republican colleagues, you know, smoke the cigar together at the bipartisan club. Right. Then those days are gone. There is no normal to go back to the country that they knew, the government that they've lived through, the Republican and Democratic parties that they that they grew up in are comfortable with don't exist anymore.

1:38:10And they can't ever exist again. We need people who have a vision for where we're going next. and I think that that's what the American people want is like we understand that your nostalgia is a thing but your nostalgia is not like a policy you know it's not like a policy agenda yeah not all the old people have to go but maybe we can just bring it down the median age a little bit the ones who don't have fire should go though again because there are some who have fire oh young because let me tell you there are some young people who do not have fire like there are young people who are very much of the get in the fit in ilk like they're like I want to come in this is prestigious I got a pen like I want to be here And they're here trying to do the same politics that have been done.

1:38:47Those politics don't work anymore. And we need a change from all of that. Agreed. Congresswoman Summer Lee, thank you so much for joining Pod Save America. And it was good to have you here in studio. Thanks for having me. Call us back. We like L.A. For sure. Anytime.

1:39:08That's our show for today. Thanks to Summer Lee for coming by. We're heading out for Thanksgiving, but we'll still be sending content your way on Friday. You'll hear some of our live recording of our subscriber-only show terminally online. And on Sunday, Dan will be back with a conversation with political analyst and fellow polling obsessive Amy Walter from The Cook Political Report. Then the three of us will be back with a new show the following Tuesday. Everyone have a great holiday. We'll talk to you soon. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts.

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