1097: Trump's A+++++ Affordability Message

25:12And even like White House policy proclamations have to be something like sort of a massive national galvanizing event that would change that. I also think and he goes on to say this as he's talking about immigration. He's like, my team told me, don't talk about the border because, you know, you already why we already fixed the border. It's fixed. And now I'm not even getting credit for it. And the truth is, however, he did it like the border crossings are almost zero. And so in the past, especially when Biden was president, people's disapproval of Biden on immigration was related to something real that was happening, which was an influx of immigrants that came to the southern border.

25:51And then because of people like Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis were transported to cities all over the country who then struggled with their own finances to try to care for a lot of these migrants. and so it was a real thing now and the reason so you see he's like on the border he's still plus two in the ap poll but then immigration is negative 22 the deportation regime is a fucking flop politically i mean it's horrific we've talked about that all year like morally horrendous but it is also deeply unpopular and every and it is something that is uh that almost everyone is aware of because i do think that these videos that have been circulating social media and everywhere have been in people's feeds and people's phones all year.

26:36And they're horrific because it's people see U.S. citizens, legal residents, kids, even undocumented immigrants who don't seem like they pose any threat whatsoever, just being tackled, abused, harassed, detained, tear gassed, pepper balls. I mean, it's just a fucking disaster for them. Did you see Kyle Tharp's newsletter, CanadaCare? He just did a post where he went through the most viral events of 2025 political events And ICE in immigration is sort of right smack in the middle is one of the absolute biggest ones because it is it breaks through. It travels on social. People are aware of it. And ultimately, Trump is doing a very bad job and going too far to solve a problem that people really are not as focused on as he thought they were.

27:17Yes. And I would also say, like, if I was devising a message for a Democratic candidate, you know, like 70 percent of it is 75 percent of it is cost of living, health care, like hammering on hammering Trump on those issues, corruption, like in that bucket. But I would not forget to talk about what he is doing on immigration. And how would you do that? And I would talk about the deportations and I would talk about the U.S. citizens that are being rounded up. And I would talk about the violence against protesters with the people who have been disappeared. And I think that it is people seeing the videos and they I think that they are scared.

27:55And also Donald Trump and Stephen Miller are not going to give that part up. And I don't think that we can be I don't think it's going to work to be only economy while they're only immigration. We're going to have to join that fight and we shouldn't be afraid of it. and I think these numbers bear that out the fact that it went from one of his strongest issues and crime by the way was which for a while it was okay well people don't like the deportations but he still has he's so strong on crime so we shouldn't talk about the deployments and the takeover of DC and all that stuff that's unpopular as well also I'm not saying it's like the top issue the thing we should be talking about all the time but like it's a it's a big deal to people I saw over I don't know if you saw this over last last week two weeks ago who knows there's that story about an immigration naturalization ceremony.

28:40Yeah. And it was at, it's happening all over the country according to this report, but this one was at Faneuil Hall of all places in Boston. And people are lined up and they have now to become a citizen, the legal way, the right way, this is part of the challenge, takes years. You have to meet all kinds of requirements, pass all kinds of tests. And finally, these people are waiting in line to take the oath to become citizens of the United States and federal agents come and fucking pull them out of line. And one of the clients that WGBH talked to, which is the local affiliate in Boston, she's a Haitian woman in her 50s and she's had her green card since the early 2000s.

29:23She has been working to get her citizenship in this country, done everything right since the early 2000s and she gets to the fucking ceremony and they pull her out of line. You cannot tell me that if, If most people in this country heard about that story, they wouldn't be fucking outraged. I would put it at 70, 85 percent, maybe 70. And so, like, I just think that those are the kind of stories that I think Democrats should be telling. Now, I think we have a lot of work to do ourselves on, like, well, what would you do? What would your immigration system look like for sure? And I think that's, you know, more of a 28 issue than a 26 issue, but it's out there.

30:00But I would not I would not run away from this issue. Yeah, I don't think you – there is this, I think, idea that you decide what the single best issue is and you only talk about that to the exclusion of all other things happening on the planet. And that just is not how the world works. It's not how – like you're going to campaign. You're going to ask questions at town halls. You're going to be in a debate. You're going to ask questions there. You're going to have to respond to things happening in your community as a candidate. Most of the – a lot of people are talking about our members of Congress.

30:28They have to talk about all these things. Like you just – this idea that like we've figured out affordability is the issue. we're only going to talk about affordability to the exclusion of anything else. You bring up anything else, we're going to say it's a distraction from affordability. That's just not how humans talk and humans work. The longer term issue here is that Trump's numbers suck on all these issues, but still on almost every issue except healthcare, abortion, and climate change, generically voters trust Republicans more than Democrats. Yeah. And affordability. Yeah. That one is basically close to the tie now.

31:00Which is crazy. But, you know, I mean, there's a lot of conversation in there, too, about Democrats being too reticent on calling for the tariffs to be repealed for a whole host of very bizarre, outdated, anachronistic political reasons. But like that, that's part of it is that we have no like there's a simple answer to how we would lower costs right away that were too many Democrats are not running on. And I think it's not – this isn't an ideological thing because I think that Democrats – I think it's a consequence of Democrats just not knowing what we stand for and what the basic universal values are that drive our party.

31:37Because it's like we – on immigration, it's like people are afraid to be seen as too loose on immigration. Like we don't want to be – seem like open borders. But then at the other side, we don't want to be too strict, right? And we're afraid to say anything about enforcement. And so we're just sort of like reactive. Same thing on on costs and affordability. It's like, well, are there small things that we can talk about? Because we don't know how far we want to go and we don't have any like big ambitious policies on affordability. And so like, I do think that we kind of have to figure out like, what does the country want?

32:11What does it look like if we take power and not just from like an individual policy perspective, but like, how do we feel about the economy and affordability? Like, what should, what, what is, what is the American dream that is achievable for people that should be achievable for people? And what do we want to do about that? You know, like we haven't had that debate in, I don't know how long. Well, I think that's what the 2028 primary is. Like, it's just right now it's like, what's Democratic? Well, last time it was, last time we did this, it was - I would say we did a great job last time. Yeah, let's everyone talk about how, here's Bernie's Medicare for All plan, and let's have everyone else talk about how their Medicare for All plan is not as good as Bernie's, then we'll all yell about it on the debate stage for 10 times.

32:47Well, the thing is, we then had a process that ended up in Joe Biden becoming the nominee, and that the party's position was that we were going to strengthen the Affordable Care Act. Right. And then we had, but Joe Biden had a position on immigration that he ran on that was not necessarily the policy that he governed on when he got there. Although, you know, like there will be a process here. A nominee will emerge. That nominee will have positions that will then define the party for good or for ill. I think there's a risk of overcomplicating this for 2026. Like what we are trying to show people is that we are going to be a check on Trump.

33:19Right. We shouldn't promise too much because we're not going to be able to deliver. Yes. Even if we won the House and the Senate, we can't necessarily deliver anything. But the one thing we can promise is that we are going to force a vote on repealing the tariffs. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. That is one. We can have a series of ideas of like how we're going to address corruption. Like first vote is going to be get rid of just stop members of Congress from trading stocks. We can have a bunch of things that we're going to do. And voters aren't dumb. Like they have given Democrats, they've given the opposition party's power all the time in situations like this, knowing that the president, like they want a check.

33:52They don't necessarily want, they're not expecting Hakeem Jeffries and the Democrats who solve all of their problems. They want them to stop Trump from making their problems worse. And after that entire 2020 debate on Medicare for All that led to simply an extension of bigger subsidies for the Affordable Care Act, maybe we can force a vote on actually extending those subsidies. Maybe we can. We actually went on it, which leads us to our next topic, health care. Great transition. Yeah, of course, of course. Unsurprisingly, it's the worst issue in the poll for Trump health care. He's underwater by 40 points.

34:23I guess that's what happens when you show people that, you know, you'd rather keep the entire federal government closed, then help stop premium hikes that are set to go into effect in just a few weeks for 20 million Americans. Some Republicans in Congress seem like they're belatedly coming around to the conclusion that this could be a political problem for them in the midterms, but not enough to just vote for the Senate Democrats proposal to extend the subsidies for three years. That vote failed on Thursday, as did all the Republican alternative proposals in the Senate. There's some momentum in the House right now on discharge petitions to force votes on various extension proposals.

34:58There's one proposal to extend the subsidies for two years. That's the Republican discharge position. There's another proposal to extend the subsidies for one year. Both of those come with new income eligibility limits and minimum payments. Trump's basically been a passive bystander on all this, though Caroline Lovett said on Thursday, we'll all be hearing from him on this quote very soon. I'm sure that will be constructive. What do you think about this? Hakeem Jeffries was asked about these discharge petitions and Democrats lining up behind it. I think the one-year extension one came from Josh Gottheimer, Democrat from New Jersey, and now has like 62 people that have signed on to it.

35:42But Hakeem Jeffries said he's not taking a position on these discharge petitions. What do you make of that? I think that Democrats, Republicans want a get out of jail free card here that allows them to take a vote to extend the Obamacare tax credits without ever actually having to extend the Obamacare tax credits. So if I was Hakeem Jeffries, I would say Democrats are not going to put any discharge petition over the top until the Senate passes a bill. Or what if you say or and we want Donald Trump to say he's going to sign it. Yeah. Because he's the other part. Yeah. They could pass the House and be the Senate.

36:17Hard to imagine Donald Trump vetoing. I mean, that would be like, honestly, he could do it at the next rally. Political perspective, like a plus plus plus plus. A plus plus plus was move. Just the thing you don't want to do is let 15 vulnerable Republicans to be able to take a vote because we force the vote. They can't. The Republicans without Democratic help cannot get a district petition done. There aren't enough Republicans. So you need the vast majority. But you need – basically you need the DCCC's target list plus a bunch of Democrats to put it over the top. And I don't think we should do them that political favor unless we know for sure that it will result in people actually getting more affordable health care.

36:53Yeah, like if Trump came out tomorrow and said, I'm for this extension that's circulating the House and Thune's like, yeah, we can get that done too. Then the Democrats are like, sure, of course. Yeah, then Mike Johnson will bring it up, right? Then you don't need the discharge petition. Right, right, right.

37:16Pod Save America is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're a last minute shopper, you know the feeling. Shelves are empty and ideas are running low, but Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal. You always struggle to find the right thing for people. And maybe you wait too long, you panic, you end up getting them a gift card. Or maybe you're going out on Christmas Eve, trying to shop. It's a nightmare. The lines, the traffic. People are out of control out there. It's pandemonium. But every frame from Aura Frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag, so there's no gift wrapping necessary.

37:43You can even preload photos before it ships and keep adding from anywhere. Upload unlimited photos and video to your Aura frame for free. Just download the Aura app and connect to Wi-Fi. It only takes about two minutes to set up the frame using the Aura app. The app allows you to share photos and videos effortlessly at any time, straight from your phone. And if you wanna personalize your gift, you can add a message before it arrives. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get$35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matt Frames, named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code CROOKED at checkout.

38:14That's A-U-R-A, frames.com, promo code CROOKED. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

38:30So voters are already punishing Republican politicians for all this chaos, and not just in federal races anymore. On Tuesday, Eileen Higgins won the runoff in the Miami mayor's race, beating the Trump and DeSantis endorsed Republican by 18 points. She will be the first Democratic mayor in Miami in three decades. And in the Georgia legislative elections, I know you were all paying attention to that, Democrat Eric Gisler flipped a statehouse district that Trump carried by 12 points. Now the DCCC, which is the House Democrats campaign arm, says it's adding five more Republican held seats to its target list for 2026.

39:04and a bunch of Democrats deciding it's a good year to run for office are launching primary campaigns right and left. We talked last week a little bit about how Jasmine Crockett was expected to jump into the Senate race in Texas. She is now officially in. Colin Allred has dropped out, meaning that Crockett's main opponent will be James Tallarico. Republicans are acting like they were dying to have Crockett in the race all along. the Senate Republicans' campaign committee, actually tried to take credit for making it happen by circulating a poll favorable to Crockett over the summer. Crockett responded to this on CNN.

39:36Let's take a listen. I am the one that the Republicans fear. They can say that they don't, but my governor cannot stop tweeting about me. And I know that that is out of fear, because honestly, if they really wanted me as the nominee, they would be quiet and just wait and hope to crush me. They know my ability to reach people that historically have not wanted to participate in politics or had just given up. So Crockett entered the race with a video that was just her sort of looking away from the camera as just sound of Trump attacking her played and she didn't say anything. And then at the end sort of turns direct to camera and smiles and that's how she entered the race.

40:20So very, you get the idea. She also did an event. She gave a whole speech and stuff like that, like a rally with supporters. What do you make of Crockett's entry in the race and sort of that message and how she's playing it so far? Well, she has to win a Democratic primary first. That message probably plays very well in a Democratic primary. It's also a great way to raise money and get attention to things that I think she will be very, very good at in this race. I think the question for Jasmine Crockett and James Tallarico, frankly, is what is your plan to actually win? Because this is a state that Trump won by 13 and a half points.

40:54There is no math to win this state that does not involve doing what Jasmine Crockett pledges to do, which is to turn out Democratic voters and to find pockets of Democratic voters who do not participate in the political process and bring them into it. but also winning over some number of Trump voters, people who voted for Trump last year, who have voted for Republicans most of the last decade, who are frustrated by what's happening, who are mad about high costs or mad about the ballroom, whatever else, who want to give a Democrat a chance. And so what is your plan to do both of those things? Because you're going to have to do both to win.

41:30There's no other option. And simply saying you're going to expand the electorate is not enough in Texas. It is not. And it's not historically how Democrats have come close. I mean, Beto talked about it all the time in 2018, but a part of Beto's very close result, which was, I think, two and a half points, he lost Ted Cruz by two and a half points, was actually doing, making some inroads with Republican voters. And, you know, he did expanding the electorate as well. You do both. You have to do both. And you have to do, you have to, and to win in Texas, you have to do an incredible historic job at both.

42:04Yes. And I don't I agree that it is a way to get attention that like Trump hates me. And so therefore you should I just I think it is a even in a primary. I think it's a it's an argument that is limited. And I'm not saying that's the only one she's making. But I think it's a limited argument, particularly in a midterm where, you know, it's 2026. Trump's leaving office in 2028. And, you know, the Democrats in Texas who've come close over the last decade have talked a lot about. There's one. Beto. Beto, yeah. I was going to say, yeah. Well, even like, I'm sorry, the ones who've like won the House races, right?

42:42Like Colin Allred and Lizzie Fletcher and people like that. They talk about Texas, the issues in Texas, what people care about. Like you really got to it's it can't be about you. It's got to be about people. We haven't won a seat in Texas since 1988. Lloyd Benson's reelection. We haven't won statewide in a couple of decades now. And I know that some people think, oh, Democrats are always, you know, they're always thinking Texas is going to turn blue and they're out. Texas is always around the corner and it's all it's fool's gold for Democrats. And like I get that. But also we don't have a choice at some point because it is one of the biggest states in the union.

43:15We've talked before about how in 2032 in the next census, it'll likely gain more electoral votes. Like there is no math for Democrats to certainly have the Senate, but also the White House without at some point playing seriously in Texas and turning Texas. And Florida. And Florida, I know. Yeah. Like Democrats have to play. I think it is a very good thing that we're going to have a vigorous primary in Texas, whether that was going to end up being Tallarico and Allred, Crockett, Tallarico, Allred, or now Crockett and Tallarico. I think that's very important. That is good for party building. We have to really play to win there.

43:49We have to play to win there in the short term because we kind of need Texas, right? Like maybe you can pull it off with Iowa or Alaska if you're lucky, but like we need two of four very hard states. And so you want as many lines in the water as you possibly can. And over the long term, we cannot cede Texas and Florida forever. We absolutely have to make them at least competitive. Because if Republicans start with all of the upper Midwest, all the Deep South, plus Texas and Florida, there are always going to be three states or so from winning the presidency every single time. And so we have to be able to compete there.

44:24And that's going to mean investing money and time and energy race after race after race, even when we lose. And I do think, you know, I think Crockett and Tallarico both have sort of similar positions on the issues. I think like ideologically that I could be wrong about this and the whole the race will play out, but they don't seem too far apart. I do think that it's in a state like Texas, too. It is the style and approach to campaigning and to governing that is going to matter here. And, you know, Tallarico was here. I talked to him for offline and for Pod Save America. And he has whether it works or not remains to be seen.

45:01He does have a theory of the case of like how he wants to reach out to people who may not vote Democrat. and part of it is you know he's a man of faith he speaks about it openly and and he's going to all these different places that are um the democrats haven't won and i'm interested to see and hear from jasmine crockett what her plan to do that is she did say you know at one point she was like i don't need trump voters and then later she was like well you know there's there's always there's trump mom donnie voters you know in new york and point taken you know the new york trump Mamdani voters are a little different than Texas, I think.

45:35But also, let's not forget, Mamdani, like he started his campaign by doing these on the street videos with Trump voters where he asked them why they voted for Donald Trump and did not scold them, was not patronizing to them, and just had a conversation with them. And even though that he didn't change his positions and he was still pretty firmly ideologically left, he tried to approach that. And so I'm interested to see if she does stuff like that. Yeah, that's that is going to be interesting because like moderation is not always ideological. It's also temperament. Yeah. And Jasmine Crockett and James Hedrick are both like right in line with the media and Democratic member of Congress.

46:13For sure. Like she is like she is often grouped with AOC and Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar and members of or Bernie or members of the squad because she is because of her style, her style. But her positions are, she is, you know, is not a, she's not a dyed in the wool progressive like some of those other folks. So it's really going to be their approach to this and their style. Like it truly is a fascinating test case. And I didn't realize until our meeting the other day that it's so soon. It's like the first big, early voting starts sometime in February. And then March, it's a March primary. So that'll be one of the first big ones of the year.

46:51We also have an update on Trump's redistricting push in Indiana, which has involved the president, his administration and Republican congressional leaders pressuring and in Trump's case, threatening Indiana Republicans with primaries and a loss of federal funding if they don't gerrymander their maps to squeeze out a few more Republican seats in time for the midterms. Well, Trump has failed. Right before we recorded, the Republican controlled state Senate killed the measure 31 to 19 with more Republicans voting against redistricting than for it. Were you surprised? A little bit. I think the natural assumption over the last year is that everyone bows, all these people bow to Trump, and particularly Republicans, right?

47:29They can talk, whether it's the Freedom Caucus, it's the moderates, they can talk a good game, but when push comes to shove, they do what Trump wants. And here you have a bunch of local state senators from Indiana, a deeply red state, just telling Trump, no. And it really should be a moment of great shame for the law firms, the universities, the corporations, the folks at Warner Brothers, Discovery, or wherever else you were thinking about doing what Trump wants, because you can stand up to him. And if these folks can do it, you certainly can. Yeah, I think it is. I mean, it's obviously a big deal for the map, but I think that for this White House and for Trump, like they cannot handle any defection, any defeat, particularly from Republicans, right?

48:15and you're not supposed to be disloyal. It's the worst thing. And now that this is out there and this has happened, the cracks are showing. And like this combined with Marjorie Taylor Greene and the Epstein files and all, and it's like, it's all of a piece here and it's starting to become a real problem for them. There is an emperor has no close moment here where people like Trump has been punching above his weight when it came to his actual political influence for a long time. Because he was elected with an incredibly narrow margin. He started out as the least popular newly elected president in history.

48:47He dropped faster than any other president. But yet Republicans kept following him based sort of on the fumes of his previous political strength. And now people recognize that here he is, a guy less popular than Joe Biden at the same time, with George W. Bush-style numbers, who's getting weaker, who's never going to be on the ballot again, and that they have to chart their own course. And it's not necessarily going to be the course that he dictates. And that's a real that is a change in both American politics, the Republican Party and Trump, because what has kept him afloat all this time through every scandal, every controversy, everything else has been party fidelity to Trump.

49:23And when that falls apart, he really loses a lot of his juice. Yes. Now, the the one caution here is I do think he gets more dangerous. Oh, yeah. This is not about. No, I know you. We have to keep saying that because I think that as he gets politically weaker, that's the good news. But I think he gets cornered and he gets dangerous and he still has quite a bit of power. He does. Where it limits him is in some of the more extreme like steal the election sort of things. Yeah, that's true. That's true. All right. Last thing before we get to my very serious conversation with Congressman Adam Smith about Trump's illegal strikes in the Caribbean.

49:56We've been talking a lot on the show about Nick Fuentes, the dedicated white nationalist anti-Semite misogynist who famously had dinner with Trump and more recently was invited on Tucker Carlson's show for a softball interview, setting off an intramaga debate about how nice they should be to white nationalists. Fuentes appeared this week on Piers Morgan's show on Monday night, and it yielded this exchange. Just to clear up one of the many theories about you, I've no idea what the answer is and you haven't got to answer, but are you actually attracted to women? I am attracted to women. You're not gay?

50:28No. But I will say that women are very difficult to be around. Okay. So there's that. And do you think they should have the right to vote? I do not, no. Absolutely not. They should stay at home? Well, yeah. Absolutely. See, basically, you're just a misogynist old dinosaur, aren't you? Have you ever had sex? No, absolutely not. Wow, since the guy who's never got laid. It's like a turn there. There's so much about that. It's also, it's just, have you ever had sex? And it wasn't like, no, it was, no, absolutely not. With the Christmas decorations behind him. That was bizarre. It was very strange.

51:11What did you make of that? I don't know what to make of that, John. I really don't. That's the right. I guess. That's the hard right. That's where the energy is. That's right. that's where the new masculinity is right there. I mean, obviously - That is who the whole party's fighting over. For some reason, they can't bring themselves to just be like, no, that guy, not welcome into the fold. It's actually helpful to see this clip because most people, probably people who listen to this, people like us, don't ever consume Nick Fuentes. We just hear about the fight within the party over the Tucker Carlson area, which they probably didn't watch or see clips of or anything else.

51:47Then you recognize that this is the guy lording over the Republican Party is this dweeb. And I also think people, oh he's racist white nationalist and they think oh is it like when we hear donald trump say shithole countries and it's like no no no no it's not that it is like pure uncut doesn't care just says it and believes it and is a virgin and is a virgin just just a just a white nationalist incel who has a massively popular radio program the pure radio program what did i say you said radio program I just transported myself back to the 50s where women stayed home like they should how's his leaflet business going YouTube whatever I don't know he's out there millions of people following him somewhere on some platform you don't know what it is speaking of toxic manosphere influencers you see the time story about the Tate brothers how Andrew Tate and his brother were freed from Romania after getting close to Don Jr.

52:47and Barron Trump. He gives, Andrew Tate holds Zooms with Barron, presumably to give him dating advice. They held the Zoom. The third Tate brother, one of the Tate brother's friends, not real Tate brother, but he's known as the third. He's like a Tate bro. Yeah, he's like friends. Tate brother from another brother. He gives Barron dating advice. But the Times, it's quite a story. The Times got a hold of text messages that Andrew Tate sent. And this is from the story. In a January 14th text message, Mr. Tate indicated. So basically we should say before I read it, what happened was the Tate brothers who have been accused over the years of rape, assault, sex trafficking, just horrific stuff.

53:27And finally, they were charged in Romania. And the Romanian government said that while the prosecutor was building the case there, they couldn't leave the country. They desperately wanted to leave the country. And so to avoid prosecution, they wanted to come to the United States. So in a this is from the Times story in a January 14th text message, Mr. Tate indicated that help was on the way. And this is January 14th of 2025. I had word from the Trump administration that they're on top of things. Mr. Tate wrote to someone close to him in a message reviewed by The New York Times, quote, I've been told I'll be free soon.

54:01But Trump needs to see me in Miami, he added. And then the whole story is about how they got close to the Trumps. and so basically trump like obviously there's like this political element to the tates and the manosphere and all of that but it's also like he freed his son's idol i just how many just disgusting bad human beings are we going to find out the donald trump part it's like a variety of everyone that you could imagine it's like do you not like sex traffickers well he freed one of those what about the people who stormed the capital he freed them what about just a your Your standard issue fraudster who just defrauded hundreds of thousands of people and senior citizens freed them too.

54:42What about the murder we brought back from Venezuela and the prisoner exchange? Yeah, there's one. Oh, what about the drug kingpin or the Honduran president that was in league with the drug kingpins that was sitting in federal prison here? Pardon him as well. You see the - Silk Road guy, another drug dealer. Pardon him as well. Bunch of crypto guys. Did you see that the Trump Department of Justice dropped the investigation against the FIFA corruption people? Oh, yeah. Right after Trump got his FIFA prize. Well, he got the Peace Prize. He doesn't want to, he doesn't, anyone connected to the FIFA Peace Prize, we don't want to see them, you know, get in any trouble.

55:14It's weird. His numbers on crime aren't doing so great. If you have money, if you have connections, you get pardoned. You can do whatever crimes you want. But if you are just a regular American citizen who looks brown and happens to be near an ice raid, you could go away for days and no one would ever find out where you are. That's the Trump administration. Cool country. Yeah, well, we should change it in 26. All right. When we get back from the break, you'll hear my conversation with Adam Smith. But two things before we get to that. In case you missed it, Pod Save America is coming to New Zealand and Australia.

55:44What do you think, Dan? Have you ever been to Australia before? No. Have you? I have. Okay. I went with Barack Obama in 2014. I didn't go on that trip. You were gone. Really one of the all-time great trips. I'll tell you the stories later. The fuck. Okay. Well, we're calling this one the Hopefully Just Visiting Tour. And we said that's a little too close to home. She was a little worried about that. As Hallie had the same response. Anyway, I think it's like hanging a lantern. It's like we're being this public about it. So it would be, I guess it would just be ironic. Look at those Yahoos who flew too close to the sun in Australia.

56:16They did say it might happen and there it's happening. Anyway, we land in Auckland on February 11th. That is the 11th of February down there. We had some issues with the dates. God, we can't do anything right. Sorry about that. Then there's three cities in Australia after that. Melbourne on the 13th of February. Brisbane on the 14th of February and Sydney on the 16th of February tickets are on sale right now for more details and to grab tickets head to kirkut.com slash events also if you haven't checked out Runaway Country with Alex Wagner yet what are you doing? It's great this week she's joined by three incredible guests to dig into the chaos at the Pentagon she talks to Senator Alyssa Slotkin she talks to Ben Rhodes heard of him?

56:57No. Yeah and she talks to Nancy Youssef one of the journalists who gave up her Pentagon press pass rather than, you know, deal with Pete Hegseth's new rules. And so she talks about what it's like reporting outside of the Pentagon walls. It's a fantastic episode. I just listened to it this morning. It's so good. So tune in to Runaway Country now on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

57:52Pod Save America brought to you by Bombas. your neighbor's fussy newborn. You get the baby Bombas that fit like a hug and are designed to feel soft and stay snug on even the wiggliest of toes. By the way, Bombas is really stepping up their slipper and slide game too. They've got new shapes, new styles, fluffy things, suede things, a little something for every foot. And if there's one thing Bombas knows, they know feet. They're freaks for feet. And we haven't even gotten to the best part. For every pair of Bombas you purchase, Bombas donates one on your behalf to someone facing homelessness. So anytime you get something cozy, someone else does too.

58:20I love Bombas, genuinely. Wear them all the time. They're all my socks. I wear them to work out. I wear the no-show socks. I wear the nice socks with my suit whenever I have to throw on a suit, which isn't that often. I'm not used to it anymore. I used to wear a suit every day. Not anymore. Not anymore. Now it's only special occasions. But I do really love them. I especially have the vintage style athletic socks. I wear them to work out so much and they just last and they're great. I highly recommend them. So head on over to bombas.com slash crooked and use code crooked for 20 % off your first purchase.

58:51That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash crooked code crooked at checkout.

58:59Congressman Adam Smith, welcome back to Pod Save America. Well, thanks for having me. A lot going on in the world. There is a lot going on. I want to get into some of the bigger questions around the Trump administration's military actions in the Southern Hemisphere and in his broader foreign policy. But since you're one of the few members of Congress who's actually seen the video of the second U.S. strike that killed two survivors of the first boat strike, I wonder what you can tell us about what you saw without getting into anything classified, of course. Yeah, and by the way, this video should be released.

59:32There's nothing classified about this strike. I mean, they've released videos on almost 20 strikes now, and they should release this one. I think the reason they're not is because it doesn't paint a picture that they want people to see. Now, look, I mean, you've got two people clinging to a capsized boat. It's the bow of the boat that's still above water. How much of the boat remains underwater, can't tell because it's underwater. It's possible the boat is actually split in half at this point. Early on in the video, they're like pulling at it. I mean, whether or not they're trying to get it to flip over or whether or not they're just trying to get a solid hold so they don't fall into the water, I don't know.

1:00:08But by the end of it, it's clear. There's no tipping this back over. So they're clinging to the side of a boat. they have they're clearly unarmed they do not have any communications devices on them and then about 40 minutes after the first strike the second strike hits kills them and sinks the remainder of the boat and at one point they were waving maybe or yeah near the end they were waving and there's a lot of speculation about what that might mean to me it's pretty obvious. We had an asset in the air over the top of them. It kind of looks like they saw the asset and just like two people on a desert island when they see something fly over, what do you do?

1:00:51That seems the most likely interpretation of that. So the Republicans who've seen the video have seemed largely satisfied with the administration's explanation, at least in their public comments. Does that track with what you've heard privately? And do you think they genuinely believe the strike was legal and right? Or are they worried about pissing off Trump? They're clearly worried about pissing off Trump. As for the second part, they don't talk about that. Certainly don't talk about it with me. I have not heard that. Now, I will say that if you want to look at the video and say, and there is an explanation, which we can get into that I've gotten from Admiral Bradley on a couple of occasions now.

1:01:33You know, if you want to say you buy that explanation, that's fine. But Senator Cotton in particular has really been saying things that either his ability to perceive events is severely limited or he's not being honest. This notion that, you know, I saw two people trying to flip the vote and continue their mission. You know, they were trying to communicate. Yeah, no, that was absolutely not happening. And then And he had this line during his Meet the Press interview. I forget the exact word he used. He said something like, they didn't look like they had been impaired in any way. I'm like, well, their boat got blown up, set on fire.

1:02:09Nine of the 11 of them got killed. And they're now clinging to a capsized small piece of the boat hundreds of miles from anywhere with no help. I don't know. I think you could interpret that as somewhat impaired. So just the lack of honesty. Now, I mean, I suppose they could come out and say, look, this is what we saw. This is what it was. we still think it's legitimate. But for the most part, they've avoided getting into specifics and just said, no, we're good. Because if you ask them about specifics, that's very difficult to defend. And what was Admiral Bradley's explanation that you found plausible even though you disagree with it?

1:02:45Yeah. And this is where we get into the policy and what is a real huge problem, something that I think is really important for we Democrats as we look to 26 and hopefully to 28 and getting back into power. How are we going to govern? Obviously, cost of living, healthcare, domestic issues, but national security policy matters. And I know on this podcast, you've got a lot of people who are really concerned about US national security policy. So you start out with the post 9-11 world, which basically was we got surprised by Al-Qaeda in a big negative way. And I think there's a lot of people who weren't alive for that.

1:03:19If you weren't alive for that, you have a different perspective on it. That was a terrifying moment. I was at the US capital when it happened. And so how did this happen? How can we prevent it going forward? We basically decided, OK, there are armed, organized groups that are trying to kill us. So let's figure out who they are and let's get them first, basically, was the philosophy. And I'm not going to say I was in no way opposed to that philosophy at the time. Now, what happened, though, was, OK, so it's al-Qaeda. It's Osama bin Laden. He's coming for us. He's hanging out in caves in Afghanistan.

1:03:50Let's go get it. But then they've got affiliates. They've got AQAP in Yemen. They've got al-Shabaab in Somalia. They've got al-Qaeda in the land of the Islamic Maghreb, which is basically West Africa. And then you've got ISIS. And then you've got subgroups. And it metastasized into this mission where an incredibly large number of people could be categorized as an enemy combatant, just like a division of armed troops coming across you on the battlefield. And that expansion got us into trouble. And we didn't basically get the read on that soon enough. And it metastasized into the mission in Iraq, an endless mission in Afghanistan, trying to think that we'd always kill just one more person, then we'd absolutely be safe.

1:04:34And that was a mistake. All right. Now, let's not underestimate that post 9-11, we did stop Al-Qaeda and we did stop any more attacks in the US, but it went too far. Now Trump is taking that and just expanding it even further with this designation of 24 narco-terrorist groups. Because once you call somebody a terrorist, then you can do whatever you want to them. But really, anyone trying to traffic drugs is a terrorist in the same sense as Osama bin Laden, who was trying to kill as many Americans as possible. I mean, drug dealers are awful, horrible, terrible people. We have a massive drug problem in this country.

1:05:08How to deal with it is a policy we need to get after. It seems to be as much of a demand problem as a supply problem, which lays out a whole bunch of different approaches. But if you say that anyone trying to traffic drugs, anyone affiliated with a group trying to traffic drugs is now as legitimate a target as Osama bin Laden when he was trying to kill as many Americans as possible, you've just dramatically expanded the power. And also, let's make clear, there's no congressional authorization for this. say what you want about the global war on terror, it had congressional authorization. The president's doing this completely on his own, and for the most part, without informing Congress, which brings us to the next interesting part of this.

1:05:49Why? What's he trying to accomplish? Is he really just hell bent to stop the scourge of drugs in America? Well, while he's pardoning the former convicted, or sorry, the convicted, former president, convicted drug dealer from Honduras, also pardoning Ross Albrecht, the Silk Road crypto guy who was convicted of laundering billions of dollars in drug money, it doesn't seem consistent. So what I think he's trying to do is assert power, dominance, go outside the law, what he's trying to do with the tariffs, what he's trying to do with ICE, terrorizing all of our communities, sending troops into our cities to engage in domestic law enforcement, all the programs that he canceled against the law.

1:06:26He's trying to say, law didn't apply to me. And I'm going to assert dominance, certainly over the law in the country, but also over the Western Hemisphere. Let's not forget the plans to invade Greenland and Panama and annex Canada. This is the complete detonation of any principled foreign policy by the United States of America. And I think there's plenty of people going to be listening to this podcast who are going to say, well, when did we ever have principles? We did. We haven't upheld them as well as we should have. It's gotten complicated and difficult, and we need to do better. But Trump is taking us to a place that we haven't been since the end of World War II, which is the U.S.

1:07:02doesn't have principles. It just has interests. We're going to use our power to grab as much of the world as we can. And the law doesn't really matter. To me, that's what this is about much more than any desire to stop drugs coming into the United States of America. So there's a lot there and I want to get to a lot of it. But just to start in the more narrow sense of labels these organizations narco-terrorists, has a bunch of individuals labeled as narco-terrorists. Have you gotten any answers as to why the administration can't just do what the Coast Guard has done for the last forever and just interdict these boats, particularly since I guess we just seized a Venezuelan oil tanker, an oil tanker off the off the coast of Venezuela?

1:07:54Like, why can't you just do that with the drug boats? We haven't gotten much of an answer. I mean, to the extent I've heard an answer, it's like, well, that just wasn't effective enough. And it's easier to blow a boat up than it is to seize it. But that's what's particularly disturbing going back to the second strike. I mean, these two guys are sitting on top of a boat that is not operative, drifting with the current. Clearly, in that instance, interdiction seemed like a pretty simple option that wasn't chosen. So no, I haven't gotten a good answer. And again, I keep coming back to this thing.

1:08:29And I don't want to sound too like a conspiracy theorist or Trump is the evil, you know, bent on the destruction of the world. But I do think a lot of it has to do with trying to expand his power so that it won't be questioned. You know, kill these people, then I'm free to go from there. I think that's a lot of it. He wants to be unbound by norms and laws and constitutions and all of that to do what he wants. So to the explanation that you guys got from Admiral Bradley, was that more about, well, if the boat strikes themselves are legal, then it follows that the second strike was the right thing to do because the order was to blow up the boats.

1:09:14Yeah, there's a couple of problems with that. But yes. And interestingly, as I literally just talked to him like an hour ago, he's a SOCOM commander, so it was not directly related, but we did talk about it. And it's like, so first of all, is it the drugs that are the legitimate target? Or is it the individuals that are the legitimate target? You know, much has been made of, oh, the Washington Post saying that Hegseth gave an order to kill everybody, and that was clearly not true. It actually was pretty accurate. There were 11 people on this boat and the order was kill all 11, destroy the drugs.

1:09:50Now, when you say kill everybody, it conjures up images of just blow up the apartment building, who cares? In this case, the 11 people who had been designated were in a pretty confined area. You weren't going to – there wasn't going to be collateral damage. But he gave the order, kill them all. Kill them all and destroy the drugs. And yes, this decision on the second strike flows from that. And is it really lawful without congressional authorization to just – and these are affiliates. I mean how directly linked – they're not the drug lords. They're not the famous third person in charge of al-Qaeda who we were targeting constantly.

1:10:30No, there were 11 guys who were foot soldiers in the effort. But yes, they targeted the drugs and that definitely flowed into the decision to say, well – and this is one part that I have my serious questions about. But they claimed that it was possible that the drugs were still there underneath that portion of the boat that still remained. I find that not terribly plausible and something I want to investigate further. But, you know, if – and it's not clear either. Well, what if the drugs weren't there? Are these two people legitimate targets? They say no because this is the two people who survived a month later in October and they were just floating in the water apart from the drugs.

1:11:09But why? I mean, why if they're legitimate targets, you know, as humans, regardless of the drugs, why? And that's why we need a lot more investigation and explanation of what this policy is. Well, speaking of those other two survivors from another strike in October, clearly the policy had changed. Something changed because they didn't blow them out of the water. They didn't kill them. But I'm sure you saw the New York Times story from this week that said when they rescued those survivors, the Pentagon lawyers reached out to the State Department lawyers and asked if they could send them to Seacott in El Salvador or basically anywhere but the United States where if they entered the United States and entered the U.S.

1:11:54judicial system, then the administration would have to prove in court, might have to prove in court, that there was evidence for the legal justification for the strikes writ large. What did you make of that story? Yeah, no, I think it really underscores the point. They don't know exactly what they're doing or the legalities behind it. And as I asked in one briefing about a month ago, you know, so basically you need less evidence to kill them than you do to capture them. And what sense does that make? But also they would say, and they have said, that the policy didn't change, that the difference is that these two were afloat in the ocean, clearly away from the drugs.

1:12:37There were no more drugs involved as opposed to these two who were on a boat that conceivably could have had the drugs still underneath the damaged boat. Yeah, I mean, it's like it's funny. It's not funny because it's really serious business, but I'm a big sports fan. So as he was explaining this to me, it reminded me of listening to people in a replay official trying to figure out if an NFL receiver had, quote, completed the catch, end quote. And when you're getting down into that level, there is one thing that I think should come up over the top of it. We're talking about killing people. So let's err on the side of not.

1:13:15All right? And I understand, all right, you know, if you're out in the field in Iraq with roadside bombs going off, with people showing up with suicide vests, and does that guy have a vest? Does he not have a – those are much tougher calls. And I mean, we're talking about two guys clearly unarmed in the middle of the frickin ocean. All right. Clinging to the remains of a boat. Make the decision. No, these guys are clearly not a threat to anybody. Let's not kill them. So you've been demanding answers. You've been trying to slow this down. I know the annual National Defense Authorization Act passed the House yesterday with a provision that would cut Pete Hegseth's budget, travel budget, if he doesn't turn over the footage of the second strike.

1:14:04Do you think that'll work? Do you think you'll get the footage? Probably not. The good thing about that is we got something in there that says the United States Congress doesn't approve of what you're not doing, okay, of the fact that you're not releasing this. That to me is a significant victory in this Congress with these Republicans. Now, I mean, fencing his travel budget means it'll make it a little bit inconvenient for him. I don't think he'll change. Sorry. I know this is serious business, but jokes occur to me. I've been joking that we should have fenced his hair and makeup budget. That would have hit home.

1:14:38That would have hit home. Then we would have seen those videos. No, I mean, but I think that the point is really – it really is important. The Congress said, look, you are not complying with the law. And that's the other aspect, OK? Not complying with the law in terms of when you have the authority to kill somebody, but it goes beyond that. This Department of Defense, I mean, Hegseth didn't even keep secret information secret in Signal Gate. Then he acts like it's fine. Of course we release the targeting information and the timing of strikes before they happen. Who doesn't? It's just there is a lack of accountability and a lostness about this group.

1:15:11And the one thing that sticks in my crawl more than anything is this whole Department of War nonsense. He is not the Secretary of War. He is the Secretary of Defense because that's what the law says. And you don't get to just decide to ignore the law. And yet he is. You know, I was out at the Reagan Defense Forum. Oh, he's the Secretary of War. He's the Undersecretary of War. No, he's not. That's illegal. You know, we want the leaders of the highest level of our government to at least care with the law. I mean, you've worked in this area before. You know, I mean, there's arguments about what can the executive branch really do.

1:15:46But here, it's not a matter of argument. They're like, we do what we want. Don't talk to me about the law. And I think that should alarm every single American, regardless of your partisan affiliation. Do your options for dealing with this administration get better if Democrats retake Congress in the midterms? Like what additional powers would you have to either try to get answers from them on what's happening in the southern hemisphere, whether it's the strikes, whether it's whatever they're doing in Venezuela or anything else? It gets better a thousand percent. There are so many things we can do, but it requires the majority.

1:16:27They are a majority of the House. I mean, we're seeing the Republican majority fracture as we're passing repeated discharge petitions, which overcome the will of the current majority. But we need a majority of members to say, yes, we want that to happen. And if we have the majority, we can do that. I would also have subpoena power to get after these. I would have considerable more authority to fence larger chunks of their funds. It's not a panacea. Don't get me wrong. It's not like they make me king for the day if I become chairman again. We still have the Senate to deal with. I mean, hopefully we can pick up the Senate.

1:17:01That's a more complicated thing, as you know. But yeah, if we got one body or the other, we would have a lot more power to demand accountability. We'd still be a long way from it. Look, George Will wrote a column a couple of days ago that I thought was pretty good, which was it's hard to constrain the military powers of the president. That's why you have to be really careful about who you give the job. to. And so certainly Trump being back in the White House is a huge problem. But yes, if we had the majority, we would have considerably more power to hold him accountable. What's your latest thinking on what they're trying to do in Venezuela?

1:17:41Obviously, they got stepped up a little bit with the seizure of the tanker. So they decided to levy some sanctions on Maduro's three nephews I saw today. Are you getting any more answers on this, on Venezuela? Are they getting briefed on it? No, we're not getting clear answers on this. And when we ask about it, and I was briefed by Secretary Rubio and Secretary Hagseth a couple of weeks ago, and they're all about to bring, oh, no, no, no, no, gosh, Venezuela, it's all about the drugs. We're not folks, we don't like Maduro. But you can see from what the president has said and the actions he's taken that he wants to drive Maduro from power.

1:18:15And he mentioned Petro in Colombia yesterday. Look, part of the fresh air, Trump said what he was going to do. And he's been very clear about this. And it's this 19th century way of looking at the world where he wants to control and dominate the Western Hemisphere. And I'm going to tie this into Ukraine in just one second in a very troubling way. And he thinks this is our area of control. And he wants to assert that control. And Maduro's not playing ball. And you can see, you know, I can't pronounce the guy's name in Argentina. But, you know, he's a Trump guy. So here,$40 billion. We love you.

1:18:48In Honduras, you know, he's got an election. So he wants to influence that election to go his way. So he pardons, you know, the president. It's all about do you pledge allegiance to Trump? And right now Maduro and Petro are not. So he wants to try to force them out in the same way that he'd like to grab Greenland, that he wants to control the Panama Canal, that he wants to annex Canada. And he has this vision of the world that it's the 19th century all over again. It's really important if you – I forget. I read something that was sort of the history of international law. And prior to World War II, we had international law.

1:19:24And it basically was big, powerful countries were free to grab whatever territory they could. They had to talk to the other big, powerful countries before they did it. And there had to be some kind of like little understanding here. And after World War II, we said, yeah, that's not working out very well. World war after world war after world war, the last one killed like 75 million people, damn near exterminated the planet. Let's try a different approach. Let's try sovereignty. Let's try some international rule of law, the rules-based system. And I know it's not perfect, and I know we violated it from time to time, but there was a general notion that that's what you're trying.

1:19:58Trump wants to get rid of all of that, and that's why he's more on Putin's side in Eastern Europe than he is on Ukraine's. Putin wants to grab Eastern Europe. That's fine. I got my thing. He's got his thing. That's OK. I mean, it's the only explanation for why he's undermining Zelensky at every turn. I mentioned I was at the Reagan Defense Forum, the whole peace through strength thing. If we are, in fact, on Ukraine's side in that war, which we should be, then what Trump is doing is he's showing surrender through weakness. I mean, who the hell goes into a negotiation and says, yeah, we'll lose it.

1:20:32We're getting our ass is kicked over here. Ukraine can barely hold on. So if he's on Ukraine's side, he's an idiot, but I suspect that he's really not. He's more in the sovereignty, schmoverty. We big, powerful men get to do what we want. It also explains sort of his interactions with President Xi in China as well, and why they don't seem to be taking China as seriously as a national security potential threat or at least competitor. And I'd probably be worried if I was Taiwan with Trump in power. But I mean, these aren't just, people should know, these aren't just like your guesses on what they're up to.

1:21:15Like they released their national security strategy, Trump and Hegseth at the Pentagon this week. And it's very explicit by talking about a Trump corollary to the Monroe Doctrine in which he does see, they do see themselves as sort of like we get to run the Western Hemisphere. And, you know, it tracks with all of Trump's weird respect for all of the other powerful dictators who happen to be right-wing dictators, right? If you're more left-wing authoritarian, then he wants to oust you. But if you're more right-wing authoritarian, then he's your pal. How are you thinking about a democratic alternative to this worldview that both gives people a different vision than Trump's, but also demonstrates to people that our party has learned from our own past mistakes when it comes to dealing with the rest of the world?

1:22:09The two big things for me is, well, two, maybe three. Let me get started here. I'll see how many I come up with. But number one, let's get rid of the idea of dominance altogether. I think this is where we made a mistake. And at the end of the Cold War, the end of the Cold War corresponding with the first Gulf War was really unfortunate timing. You know, the Soviet Union collapsed, and then we showed up and, you know, took care of Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait like that. And so we got into this, into our head, the idea that, oh, we can fix all of the world's problems. And, you know, there were some who had malevolent reasons for that.

1:22:43A lot of neocons just wanted to dominate for the sake of putting more money in their pocket, for the sake of having power. But there were a lot of people on the left that said, you know, we can stop hunger, famine, civil war. We can go into a place like Libya or Rwanda or Somalia and fix things. We need to bury that idea. We can influence events and the US should play a role, but we need to get rid of the no pure competitor, we must dominate, because it's just not going to happen. I mean, we live in a multipolar world. It's not post-World War II when the entire rest of the industrialized world had just been blown off the face of the map.

1:23:15We have competition. How do we manage that competition. So get rid of dominance, number one. Number two, partners and allies. We're not going to do this alone. We're not going to meet our national security interests on our own. And Trump, of course, is busily undermining that as well. But also, I think, understand that the US should play a role in the world. And this is where I disagree with some of my friends on the left, who have a very harshly critical assessment of what the US has been doing over the course of the last 80 years. I think the record is more mixed. But by and large, the US being engaged in the world in the right way is a positive thing.

1:23:50If we disengage, then brutal, aggressive autocrats like Putin, like what Iran has done in the Middle East, they're going to prosper. So I think we need to be engaged from a place of humility, cooperation, and working together. And then the final piece of this is when this rules-based international order was set up, the world was an entirely different place than it is right now. I think we need to recognize that. Brazil, India, even China, these are countries that have a bigger play and a bigger stake. I don't want a confrontation with China, by the way. Now, I think Trump's doing this for all the wrong reasons, but the idea that we should tone it down and try to find some way to get along with China.

1:24:29I took one of the first congressional trip to China two months ago and had high-level meetings over there. We had a long way to go. But the world is a better place in the next 50 years if the US and China can figure out some way to peacefully coexist than if we're constantly bumping into each other. And I think that's a pretty decent framework, is we got work to do, but let's try to have a rules-based international order. Now, when it comes to human rights, when it comes to liberal democracy, we want to promote that. And this is where I think Hegseth fundamentally understands what a realist is.

1:25:03A realist basically believes that liberal democracy, pluralism, greater freedom and opportunity for all is a better way to live, but understands that we're not in a position to force the entire world to do that. And we occasionally have to work with people who aren't going to meet that ideal. So we're going to be realistic about that. What Hegseth and Trump are doing, it's not realism. It's nihilism. It's power. It's no principles, only, well, the phrase, I forget who used it was, you know, the strong take what they can and the weak suffer what they must. That's the way the world was. That's not the way we want the world to be.

1:25:41So I think we need to work off of that framework. And there's all kinds of different little pieces of it. And that's something I'm working on because we got to win in 26. We got to win in 28. There's a whole lot of issues. Like I said, I want to have a plausible national security strategy for our coalition, which our coalition is pretty much at each other's throats right now. I want to try to have that conversation, get that figured out so we're in a stronger position in 26 and 28. I mean, it does seem like zero-sum, a view of the world that is zero-sum politics, both abroad and it matches what they're doing here and the policies they have here, right?

1:26:16Which is just the strong survive, survival of the fittest, and the weak can just deal with it. There was one more thing before I let you go in the national security strategy. Clearly this, you know, Western Hemisphere, we're going to run the Western Hemisphere. It's in our sphere of influence thing. You know, it's power for power's sake. They also mentioned quite a few times mass migration. And I do think that some of what they're doing in the Caribbean and Venezuela, like, you know, they want to say it's about drugs. But really, I mean, you know, Stephen Miller was talking about blowing up boats back in 2018, reportedly.

1:26:53And so I do wonder if some of this is meant as like a deterrent, like we are going to stop the rest of the world from even attempting to come to the United States. and partly in the national security strategy they lay out, they're like, the era of mass migration is over, which seems sort of ludicrous to me in that you can't really stop people from trying to migrate places, particularly as we have conflicts all over the world and climate change is going to start pushing people towards other countries as well. And so I wonder how you think about dealing with mass migration, the reality of mass migration, knowing that, you know, we just went through four years of Joe Biden, where we had some real border challenges that in some ways led to another Donald Trump term.

1:27:40And now we have this national security strategy and a domestic policy that is focused primarily on keeping immigrants up. Yeah, that's a really good point. I hadn't thought about it quite that starkly. Thanks for mentioning that because that factors into the thinking as well. Several different pieces to that. I mean, first of all, and this is something I left out in the national security strategy, development matters. If you don't want people to migrate, help make sure that all the wealth and opportunity isn't concentrated in just a few places. Let's stop some of these. Don't get rid of USAID.

1:28:12Don't starve hungry children to death across the world. Actually engage in trying to create a more prosperous world for them so that they don't have to migrate to survive is number one. Number two, I do think we as Democrats, we do have to have some control on our borders. And I think that hurt us. We can't take everyone who's desperate. We need to have a rational asylum system, a rational immigration system. And certainly part of that is a pathway to citizenship for the undocumented population that we have invited into this country and depended upon their labor for decades to now cast them out into the world is cruel, wrong, and bad for the country.

1:28:51But we do have to have a border security plan. But the other part of this that I think is really important that just screams out in that national security strategy is it's really racist. Tip of the hat to Trump, sort of like pulling off the mask in Pennsylvania yesterday. Yeah, we want people from Sweden and Norway, not from those shithole countries. He just said the quiet part out loud as the cliche goes. And I think that racism is a huge problem because what does it mean to be an American? Well, you're an American if you believe in the basic liberal democracy values here. It doesn't matter what religion you have.

1:29:25That was sort of our principle. And now what Trump and these people are trying to say, no, American, you better be a straight white guy. Well, we need some women too, but certain designated roles in that regard. I don't think that's a message that's going to be unifying in the world if we pit races and religions against each other in a death struggle to the end. I think migration shouldn't be based on religion and race and all of that. And we do have to control it, like I said. But understanding this white Christian nationalist thing, that's another connection between Trump and Putin. We've got to nip that in the bud because that fundamentally undercuts both our principles and our values.

1:30:07And it leads to a lot more conflict. If you tell the rest of the world, if you don't have the right religion, you don't look the right way, then you're not going to be allowed to live. Well, they're going to fight. So we better have a more inclusive world going forward. Congressman, thank you as always for joining Pod Save America. Appreciate you coming on. Yeah, I love what you guys do. I appreciate you giving me the chance. And got a lot of work to do. Got to win next year and got to win in 28. For sure, for sure. Well, good luck out there. Take care. Thank you.

1:30:40That's our show for today. Thanks to Adam Smith for coming on. Love when we'll be back in the feed on Sunday with a conversation with J.B. Pritzker about the ice madness in Chicago, redistricting, and the best and worst Star Wars movies. I'm excited for this. That was very important to him to Lovett. Yes. When he found out that J.B. Pritzker is a Star Wars guy. I've never seen him more aggressively pursued an interview than after that. Yeah, well, it's also like because J.B. Pritzker likes gambling and goes to Vegas and is a big steakhouse guy. Yeah. Like, he's hitting all the stuff for Lovett.

1:31:10Lovett's very excited about this. When he was on the podcast in Chicago during the convention, he told Tommy and I that he and his buddies do a steakhouse crawl. Yeah. I don't know whether he's going to be the best president or the best presidential candidate. He might be the best hang. Yeah. Well, we'll see. We'll love it. It'll tell us. Tune in Sunday for that and then we'll have a new Pod Save America episode for you again on Tuesday. Bye, everyone. Bye, everyone. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts.

1:31:43Also, please consider leaving us a review. that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Pod Save America is a Cricket Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank, and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reid Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant.

1:32:13thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America at East.