1121: How To Survive a Dictatorship (feat. Wagner Moura)

29:03Yeah. And Bolsonaro, you were on his radar. Oh, yeah. It wasn't easy. It was because, you know, in order to be vocal, you have to be also like willing to face the backlash. Right. That's why I'm against when people go, you have to go out, you have to speak up. There are some people that are not ready to do that and they shouldn't because the backlash is really strong. Yeah, but I think that this is, what did you ask something? Like, have you worried at all? No. Have you worried at all about repercussions? No, because it would be worse for me to go. Not say something. Yeah, but this is how I am.

29:46Again, this is me. This shouldn't be the thing for everybody. For me, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I knew something, And if I had something that I knew I would say and people would listen to me and I wouldn't do it because I was afraid of something or because someone is paying me or because I have an economical, financial interest, that would destroy. Again, talking about values, how can I tell my kids to be honest and to be themselves and to stick with the values that they have if I don't do that? Right. So no, I'm not, of course I've been Again, the world Is totally polarized So when I say something, especially in Brazil When I say something, like half of the country I guess, go like, that's nice That's cool, and the other half Is like Yeah, I mean Do you get shit?

30:47Do people give you a hard time in Brazil? Oh my god What do they do? Do they come up to you? do what do they say that i don't have social medias because it's uh it's i you know it's hardcore yeah i've when i when i did that my film marighella and and that was under bolsonaro's government we received many death threats and in some when we were releasing the film we had to have metal detectors at the door yeah i've been like when i was on the street because i go out I had to really pay attention where I was and who I was talking to. So you decided to follow that up with this film. Like if I were your wife, I'd be like, how about an animation?

31:31How about a Pixar film, honey? I would love that. Want to be the voice of a crab? How about that? I was actually visiting Pixar Studios yesterday. Yeah, you were. That's what I should be doing. But yeah, but I think it's, yeah, this is how I function, I think, as a person. Well, I mean, hats off to you. And I wish there were more people. I honestly think, you know, we are living in times, and I say this as an American who has lived largely a life of privilege in a very free society as a journalist. But it really feels like it's time to pick a side. You know, when they're threatening to, you know, arrest and hang for treason U.S.

32:15senators, when they're going after the Fourth Estate, and when they're terrorizing communities of color in American cities just by virtue of disagreement. It's like, this is the hour. This is the hour to say something. And I think so, yeah. You know, Hollywood is one thing. But if you have a pulpit, if you have a voice, why not use it? I mean, I do want to ask, though, because I say this, and you're in Hollywood. It's another sunny day. You were at Pixar Studios. I was in Hungary early last year trying to get a sense of what it was like to live in an autocracy. And one of the things as an American, I didn't fully under, I did not grasp the lived experience of being in Brazil in the late 70s, right?

32:55I think most Americans, because we're largely ignorant about world history, think of Brazil as like Carnaval and like Caipirinhas and whatever. The movie takes place during Carnaval, which I thought was really interesting. But they think of Brazil as an Arab world. Which is happening right now. Well, I mean, the Lenten season, right? Oh, my God. It's so the best. So, but just talk to me a little bit about how, you know, we, I do feel like autocracies now are, they're not like the gulags of yesteryear. They're like, Hungary is a lovely place to visit. You can go have a cocktail and a great meal, but there's not real freedom of speech, right?

33:35and Brazil it's like it's still this beautiful place it's bucolic there's a lot of sex happening a lot of sex in the movie yeah gratuitous yeah very very sexy very authentically yeah of the fabric of yeah exactly and I too it's just hard for people to understand that just because your day-to-day life can be one of sunshine and beaches it doesn't guarantee that you have real freedom. And I wonder how you as a Brazilian think about that period and just the way, you know, people like enjoying their lives. They don't want to have to worry about darkness at the edge of the frame. You know, when I did Narcos and I was living in Colombia, Bogota back in the 80s was the most dangerous city in the world because of the bombs Pablo Escobar was putting on the streets and everything.

34:27And I was asking my friends in Colombia, They were like, hey, how was it to live here back in the 80s? What it was. And they were like, dude, we were going out. We were going to bars and living our lives. And then boom, a bomb would explode. Exactly. And that's one thing that I love in films is to see characters. I love to see characters that want to live, that like to be alive, despite of the situations. Because that's how human beings are. So we're not monolithic. of course it's hardcore to be under a detective ship but one of my favorite scenes in The Secret Agent is when he realizes that there are hitmen looking for him and he goes downstairs and carnival is going on and goes like, okay, so he gives himself to the carnival and goes and that's, for me, that's very humane but you were right about this thing that detectives, not detectives but authoritarian regimes Nowadays, it's interesting, man.

35:29I mean, when I think about the dictators, the dictators from South America back in the 70s, in the 60s, 70s, there are all those military guys with, you know, like those hats and things. Uniforms. Yeah, uniforms. And it's interesting that they all now, they are perceived as, exactly like you said, I haven't thought about that. As like, yeah, this is just, you know, like, this is it. This is normal. It's more like a cynical. That's just one thing about Donald Trump that I think is interesting. What? Yeah. Tell me. When he, for example, when he invaded Venezuela right now, he didn't say they had mass destruction weapons or anything like that.

36:30He was like, we're fucking oil. Yeah. Straight up, we're robbing this fucking country. We want their oil. That's what we want. And I was like, wow. because yeah I feel that now nowadays these authoritarian guys they passed as they like to behave as democratic guys they don't it's like they don't want people to know it's like a full on dictatorship they're like you can still go to Zumba class you can still get a smoothie there's just no press anymore and also if you're brown if you're too brown we're going to deport you regardless of whether you're an American to another country that's not even yours I mean, but that's the thing of the United States.

37:13It's like, it's a very careful line, right? You're nominated for best actor. We have a best picture nomination. And like, those are hallmarks of a free and fair society that would champion that level of artistry that addresses the subject of dictatorship so directly. But it's also like, but shit, the rest of the country's like, go to Minneapolis. I was there three weeks ago. That sure as fuck did not feel like a democracy, right? And you say like I'm nominated for an Academy Award, but if I see ice people on the street, I've been asking myself, what would I do? What would you do? I don't know.

37:49Because my instinct, and I know that I have this instinct in me, which my wife gets very nervous about, which is like, fuck you. and I have to be careful with that that's insane, can I just say this is insane that you are going to the Oscar and I speak with an accent

38:19I don't know what would I do I don't know, should I just pretend that they're not there and try to walk, I don't know if I could be able to do that you know or my reaction would be like confront confrontation and that could be very and that could put my life in danger yeah do you do your kid your kids are old enough to know about what's happening do you talk to them about it yeah they went to a manifestation against ice uh a protest yeah a protest here and what did do they talk to you about what you should do or what you would do as a family i mean that's so insane that someone who's up for best actor is like if ice comes fuck I don't know what I do I don't know we have conversations here about politics and I just want them to be safe the younger ones my kids are 19 15 and 13 the 15 and the 13 they were like dad there's a manifestation against ICE some of our friends are going can we go I was like, yeah, you should go.

39:28But I was like. Worried. Worried, yeah.

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41:08when we talk about sort of like masculinity and the the ways in which fathers and sons can impart lessons to each other and just how much of our political moment is dictated by toxic masculinity i must ask you since you just sort of made a glancing mention of the epstein files like what do you think of all that i know that the corruption of the elites was something that happened in Brazil in this period, something that a lot of autocratic and dictatorial societies are familiar with because you really can't get far unless you have buy-in from the richest and the most powerful. When you see this Epstein stuff come out, what do you think of it?

41:49What was your thought when you saw all the people that were mentioned in the file? It's crazy because sometimes I catch myself in a sort of IQ I know on sort of like... Well, I mean, I think all of us were like,

42:06QAnon maybe kind of hit on something there. Conspiracy theorists about, because for sure, we're talking about a financial elite, right? That when I heard that Noam Chomsky was involved in this thing, I was like, yeah, man, you know, this is it. you know, for sure, most of the people involved in these scandals are, you know, conservative politicians. But actually, it's not about right or left. No, it's about power and wealth. It's about power and wealth. And for me, that is coming from a country where social inequality is the biggest issue. You know, it's the biggest issue of Brazil. And every time, with the exception of Lula, that's why I respect him so much.

43:08But every time a president in Brazil or someone tried to do something about it, this person got ousted, you know, got impeached, or there was a coup d 'etat or something. Every time, because people make lots of money. The interest rates in Brazil is like, I don't know, I don't even know. It's like the biggest in the world. So the banks makes lots of money in financial. It's a system that they don't want to be changed. So it's just, yeah, it's hard not to go like, oh, my God, this world is being ruled by lizards. Is it weird to be in a place like Hollywood when this, stuff comes out because he made inroads.

43:57He was always, Epstein was always trying to get to Hollywood. And there is a certain like, Hollywood can look away from things it doesn't want to see. We know that from the Me Too movement. And I just wonder, like, I wonder what it's like to be a bit of a radical and to be politically engaged and being someone who's ready to resist in a, in a, and I'm not asking you to like smear Hollywood, but so much of Hollywood is transactional. And It's just about like, you know, who knows who and power and access. Don't expose yourself. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, of course, in a way smaller scale, I lived this in Brazil as well.

44:37Yeah. A star system in Brazil as well. And it did operate sort of in the same way, but in a way smaller scale. Scale. And it's, yeah, it's how the same that we spoke in the beginning. Like I, I, I understand, I really understand people that don't want to go out there and say things, you know, although I agree with you, if there's a moment to go out there and say shit, I think it's now. It's now. But I understand who doesn't want to do that, you know, because people are not equipped emotionally or, you know, intellectually or didn't, people shouldn't talk about things that they don't understand.

45:21Right, I get that. I get that, right? I get that. But for me, yeah, I'll keep being myself. Again, the thing that I tell to my kids all the time is like, be yourself. You know, what you are is good enough. Don't try to be something else. Don't try to impress anyone. Just you are wonderful just the way you are. Just be yourself and you'll be fine. Stick with the values that you have. And you, meanwhile, are going to be someone else every couple months. I'm kidding. I know what you're saying. But yeah, but there's another thing about it. And I will be Pablo Escobar. No, but that's the point. For me, it's interesting.

46:05I've come to realize more and more that when I play a character, it's way more a version of myself than anything else. It's not like the idea that actors put masks in front of them. So you're not method. I think we expose ourselves a lot, even when we play characters like Pablo Escobar. Can I ask you, I ask you this because you're from South America and Trump's ramp up to the Super Bowl and Bad Bunny performing and was like so, the racism usually like lives right on the surface. But in that moment and the aftermath, it was like the degradation of Latin culture and the accusations that like you can't be part of America.

46:54You know, Bad Bunny saying together we are America and ending the Super Bowl, listing off including your home country, all these countries and suggesting like the prospect, the promise of this place is its inclusivity and that you can be Brazilian, but you're also American. how did like how did that moment strike you when you were i mean i don't know if you watch football but like i assume the like the the sort of like do you speak english what language do you speak like the whole debate about having this performer and what he said ultimately in his joyous celebration of a halftime i didn't see the whole thing i saw a video afterwards and uh i thought i thought he was beautiful i thought i thought he was he was brave and he because i for me it's always what I could be here talking to you and saying things, and I can say here right now, I think Donald Trump is racist.

47:44And I keep telling this and doing this all the time. This wouldn't be as important or stronger than, for example, the film that we did, The Secret Agent. I think that what fascists are afraid of is not, they're not afraid of, because they, any fascist government, they attack journalists, they attack artists, they attack. universities but with artists i don't think that they are afraid of what we say publicly they are afraid of what we do yeah this is what concerns them you know and so bad bunny in the grammys he went up there and he said eyes out and it was like fucking cool but what he did with that performance is way more powerful totally it's his it's it's it's his it's his uh talent and what That's what he was born to do.

48:35And the way he did it, I was very moved. Me too. And, of course, Trump's reaction is a clear display of racism. But also fear, I think, too. And fear. And fear. That's what I'm talking about. And fear. That's right. And fear. Because to your point, I mean, Trump wants to believe as much of a cultural idiot as he is. I think you're totally right about artists being a very powerful bulwark to authoritarianism because they have the hearts and the mind of the people. They have this magic to them that can't easily be stamped out and can't be dismissed as partisan chicanery. It's like it's something that Trump will never have, that magic that Bad Bunny had.

49:24And the goodness and the joy of that performance is the opposite of what he's offering to the American people. And him being such a narcissist, you know, for him. Yes. That's not a... But you said very right. It's like fear is a... I'm convinced that the whole... All the bad things in the world, they all come out of fear and insecurity. lack of self-esteem. Going back to the guys killing Alex Berti in Minneapolis, I saw those men, they were in fear. That's what I could see, you know, like very scared men. They were always scared. There's something in their life. And the way they recruit the ICE people, from what I heard, it's very particular like it's like they're gathering people not only ideologically but like there is something about these men that connect them in their fear, in their lack of self-esteem, in the way that they've been in their minds, that they've been relegated their entire lives I could see this when Bolsonaro got elected all his secretaries and ministers, there were like a bunch of people that no one really never cared about.

50:57It was like people there were like a lot of like people with so much resentment in their hearts. And now it's my moment. Now it's true. Totally. Well, I would argue the same is true of the Trump administration. It's like the cabinet of broken toys. It's people who have faced rejection, who feel less than and who've been given some power and are going to use that to, you know, put the boot on other people's necks. I think it's also why ICE wears masks. It's for their own, it's like they're also, they know that part of their impunity is because they're hidden. But if they actually had to face the music of what they're doing, the depravity of it, like they're, they're terrified of what they're doing.

51:38That says a lot. Exactly. The masks are a huge part of this. The mask says a lot, you know, why, yeah, why, why, why you're not showing your face. I got to ask you about this because I was really struck by this quote. When you, after Narcos, a series I absolutely loved so much. Again, it's like I know every journalist does this in these interviews with you, so I'm trying my best not to be fawning. But anyway, you said you turned down a lot of interviews after Narcos because you didn't want to be like the Latin bad guy. And in an interview you said, I want to play a character who speaks the way I speak because I represent a big portion of this country.

52:15people who came here, speak with accents, and are important for what we know as the United States, which is chef's kiss, no notes. But like, was that a political, like, how much of a political, that feels like a really political statement in this stage? Yeah, it's for sure a political statement. You know, I don't want to play, I don't want to do anything that would be, you know, that would represent my people in a, in a way that would be a stereotype or, or would image representation matters a lot. You know, I, I, I think that it's great to see, you know, to, to, to let, to have kids back in Latin in Brazil, looking at the kind of characters that I want to play or that, you know, one thing that I was very like i love to see diego luna in star wars i know like so good that's so important like a mexican little boy there in mexico or like the mexican communities of the people that speak spanish here in this country go like oh my god there's this dude speaking with that accent and it's in the star wars world i belong to that too i think this is so important you know for the for for kids, for the new generations.

53:36And yeah, it's for sure a political statement. Pedro Pascal needs to take that Mandalorian mask off. Just kidding. He's great. He's great.

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55:05let me ask you because i i feel like on your cv it says that you at one point worked as a journalist is that right i graduated as a journalist i that's why i also why i care so much about journalism and and i and i'm so concerned about the state of journalism is that why you took the the less glamorous path of a hollywood um superstar it was just like it was too much pressure being a journalist? No, I think that I wouldn't, that wasn't my thing. I think, I don't think I would be a very good journalist. Why? It, I think it requires a lot of, I have lots of interest in other people and I want to know about it.

55:52But there is a thing that a journalist has to be very, you know, invasive sometimes. like me saying why no but you know like you have to be relaxed you know you have to like receiving a no and going back there and knocking at their door and I don't think I had that kind of skills and also too when I worked as a journalist I was I had a very romantic idea that I wanted to be like oh the president's man kind of thing and do something The kind of thing that I was doing when I started as a journalist was very like... What were you doing? Do you remember? I remember that I covered police. I had to go to the police station and know how many people died.

56:38That's what Woodward and Bernstein were doing. They were like weekend beat reporters. It was very like... And also I did some cultural things too. I don't know, man. I think that acting is more... Well, you were nominated for an Academy Award. Obviously, you chose the right path. My friends from the city where I'm from, from Salvador, most of them are my—I met my wife in college. I studied in journalism. Most of my friends are journalists. And I'm very concerned of the state of journalism as a business and as an idea. The Washington Post thing is very—it was a very sad thing to see. You know, like I was like, Jeff Bezos has 40 million to put in that documentary and he couldn't, you know, he had to fire all these people like from the Washington Post.

57:35The Washington Post is a very, very important institution for American democracy. Yeah. You know, again, talking about all the presidents, man, you know, like it's so those kind of things really. this concerns me a lot. Well, you talk about Watergate, and I'm reminded of the 1970s in America, which was like an incredible period of cinema. I think in large part because it was a response to Vietnam and Watergate and the corruption of institutions. Do you feel optimistic that we're going to, and your movie is obviously, you know, you did it in 24, and we've obviously been talking about autocracy and dictatorships a lot in the Western world.

58:19Are you optimistic that Hollywood can react in the way that it did in the 70s and sort of be fertile again? Or do you feel like the system is fucked beyond repair? I'm very bad with these predictions. I never know what's going to happen. I don't know how the impact of technology is going to have in what we do. I can see that the AI thing is moving so fast. There's AI actors already. I don't know. I don't know the grip of this technology. The film The Secret Agent, if you noticed, it had a very huge... Kleber Mendonça, the director of this film, he loves American films, as I do, from the 70s. Yeah, and he's very influenced by that.

59:13Very clear, even with the way he shoots with the panomorphic lenses and the zooms and the political aspects of Three Days of Condor and all those films from Peckinpah, from, you know, De Palma and... Peckinpah, all these... Pakula. This is a great era for films in the world. And the clothes are so fucking awesome, let's just say. Yeah, the clothes are great. I hope so. Listen, I hope... Are you kidding? You look amazing. The wardrobe. The clothes are great. But to your question, I hope so. I think I really liked one battle after another. I thought that it was a great film, you know, about a revolution in the future.

1:00:00And also, like, again, like a film that was, they shot it. I don't know when they shot that. But, you know, and then all these, a film that starts with lots of Latinos getting, you know, in a prison and the revolutionaries freeing them. Yeah, I think filmmakers and artists will keep doing our thing, you know, like it's like despite of economical powers and Hollywood and the grip that money has on the studios and the technology thing. And I think we'll keep doing our thing. It's just what we do. Well, you said something really beautiful at the beginning of this, which I want to get back to before we close it out, which is generational trauma can be passed down.

1:00:51I'm getting it wrong already. Is it generational hope? Values. Values. You said generational trauma can be passed down, but so can generational values. And I think, honestly, one of the ways we remind ourselves of who we are in all of our complexities is through art, right? It's like this film is a reminder of what happened in Brazil, but it's a way for Brazil to also reconcile her past or his past, whatever. And it's holding a mirror back up to ourselves. But that's also how we – it's a statement of values and priorities that you make art like that, right? That one battle after another and the secret agent are both going to be Best Picture nominees is a value statement about what matters and what resonates in our culture.

1:01:40And that's really hopeful. I think so. I think so, too. And I think that this is so – it's been so important, you know, because the far right in Brazil, they were very efficient in transforming artists, of course, into the enemies of the people. There's a big discussion about if the government should fund culture or not. Of course, the far right says, no, they shouldn't do that. And they say that all these artists, they are using the money that we should build a school or a hospital, and we're doing a film. It's bullshit. That's a false statement. That's a false choice. It's a false. But people, it's crazy because people see that and people go, yeah, I prefer a school than a fucking film.

1:02:32And this has been a battle, a battle after another that we are fighting in Brazil against this kind of thing because no country, listen, I grew up watching American films, right? So that for me were international films that I saw with subtitles. But my understanding of what the U.S. is comes from the films that I saw. Every time I think about Christmas, although in Brazil it's summer, I think about snow because of the American Christmas films. and that was something that was important for me to read your country to have empathy for these people to admire things about this culture and to see things that I didn't like as well and to go like oh that's not cool and to form an idea of other countries but I guess it's even more important for an American, for Americans throughout history, like to be able to see themselves, to go like, oh, so this is who we are.

1:03:47Exactly. We are, this is, and great things. And that's the shaping of a culture. No country develops without that. So the false dichotomy of like hospitals or films, it's stupid because we need films, we need books, we need to see ourselves in our... I love what's going on in Brazil right now, the way people are embracing this film, even with the polarization and seeing like, this film represents us. This is Brazil. This is a part of Brazil. It's a part of Brazilian history. So, yeah, I think this is indeed very, very important. Yeah, it's like why the videos of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Good are really important.

1:04:36But then it's also important to see Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl. And it's also important. It's all of a piece. It's all America. And the truth is not distilled into just one image, but many images, right? So can I ask you, do you know what you're going to say if you win? I really don't expect. Are you going to say ice out? I'm kidding. I have no idea. I think that we got, I'm so happy that we, honestly, like no bullshit, we got so far. It's crazy. You know, this Brazilian film had four nominations to the Academy Awards. We won awards in Cannes. We won awards in the Golden Globes. It's great. You know, I think that we are where we didn't really dream to be when we were doing it.

1:05:29this movie. So yeah, as a, as a, you know, I, I don't, I don't think I don't have expectations like to win an award this time. Really. You've given more thought to what happens if ICE detains you than if you actually win the Academy Award. That I should be, that I should be definitely thinking about. Why isn't he here? Oh, he's detained. Oh my God. Well, that would be amazing for the cause. Let's just be clear. Yeah. Now I could have a chance. Now thanks to this podcast. We've put a target on your back. Not the intention at all. And we know you would get out fast. That would generate lots of publicity for sure.

1:06:12Well, listen, I hope that you win it and there's no ICE agents anywhere near. It's an extraordinary film. You're an extraordinary. It's so reassuring to have artists who are also politically engaged and just so fucking awake. It's awesome. It's great to have you on a program like this. And it means a lot, both, I think, for us here at Crooked, but also for our audience. And it's just great to see a handshake between politics and art that's so effortless and so real. I think that they walk together. I think that they're really entangled. Our arts and politics is sort of like the same. I think that's how I see it.

1:06:51Listen, I wanted to be an actor, but I became a journalist. You wanted to be a journalist, became an actor. I think we ended up in our right lanes. And we're both Wagner. And we both. We needed a Wagner in journalism at one in one. There's a lot in common here, Alex. I just, we're siblings from a different mother. I don't know, something like that. It is a true pleasure, Wagner. Thank you for spending some time with me today. You're the best. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Wagner Mora for being such a sport about all of this. I hope this doesn't dim your prospects getting a Pixar movie. but keep making these movies and everybody please keep supporting artists who can have conversations like this in the middle of an Academy Award season by going to see The Secret Agent which is streaming now or by going back into the vaults and checking out season one of Narcos where he is totally awesome.

1:07:42Thank you to Wagner for doing this and thank you guys all for listening. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts go to cricut.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Cherlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics.

1:08:14The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.