Can Soccer Save the World?

0:20Welcome back to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vietor. The final game of the 2026 FIFA World Cup is now about a week away. and I am already genuinely sad that this is about to be over. The tournament has taken me from casual fan to full-on World Cup junkie and I don't know what I'm going to do going forward to not do work at the office because we just have the games on all day. And what makes this all the more remarkable is that before the World Cup began, there was a global sense of anxiety and concern about holding this tournament in Donald Trump's America. Fans from all around the world were worried about ice raids, visa restrictions, travel bans, and then also issues with FIFA itself, like the exorbitant price of tickets.

1:06That one was not resolved, by the way. And while there have been some unfortunate incidents, mostly the conversation has been about the excitement around the U.S. men's team, at least at first, the unbelievable quality of the games themselves, the incredible finishes, and the joy of watching fans from around the world come to America, fall in love with our cities, our culture, inhale food from Waffle House and serenade stadiums with songs and even Viking chants. And it has served as a reminder to a lot of us, I think, that we live in a great country and one that is defined by its people and not by its politics.

1:42So today to dig into all things World Cup, I'm thrilled to be joined by soccer royalty. Gary Lineker, he's a former England striker, broadcaster, and co-founder of goal hanger. He was one of the greatest soccer players of his generation. The guy had a hat trick in the 86 World Cup. Incredible. Gary played in one of the most famous soccer games in history against Argentinian legend Diego Maradona. And today, he's one of Britain's best known sports broadcasters. And he's one who has used his platform to speak out about social justice issues and has even been criticized for statements he's made, which we'll get into in the interview.

2:17Today, Gary is the host of an excellent soccer podcast called The Rest is Football, which you can catch on Netflix throughout the World Cup. And if you're in the market for a new podcast, check out Goal Hanger. They've got a bunch of great shows. The rest is history. The rest is politics. The list goes on. And another great way to support progressive independent media is to become a friend of the pod subscriber here with Crooked Media. You'll get ad-free episodes of Pod Save America. You'll get other great crooked shows like Pod Save the World is ad-free as well. You'll get tons of bonus content, including bonus Pod Save America episodes.

2:45You get deep dives into the polling, the latest polls from Dan Pfeiffer. There's great newsletters, much, much more. So becoming a paid subscriber, it's the single best way you can support our work and help us grow. So if you like what we're doing, please consider it. And with that, here's my conversation with Gary Lineker. So Gary, I'm a casual soccer fan who has become obsessed with this World Cup. So it's really, it's a pleasure for me to talk to a soccer legend like you. As someone who played in two World Cups for England, you covered soccer for decades. What are your impressions of the tournament so far?

3:17I think it's been quite joyous at times. There are always, with all big tournaments, especially the World Cup, there are always pros and cons. But I think by and large, it's gone spectacularly well in many ways. On the pitch, I think the football's been really good. And some brilliant games, some cracking stories of underdogs, you know, Cape Verde, for example. I think the real joy has probably been the way the fans have celebrated, not just their own victories, but celebrated together and kind of shown a lovely humanity and togetherness that we've probably not seen previously. And perhaps it's a little message to the world that we can get on, even if we're on from all parts of the world.

4:09So I think that's been wonderful. wonderful um the tournament's building up now obviously to to the crescendo the excitement the big final um but I think it's been um way better than I actually thought it would be though obviously going into it like we do in all world cups we always think this you know there are going to be things that go wrong and there have been and things that we perhaps don't like but overall I think it's been I think it's been a triumph really yeah I mean that that was sort of why I was wondering, I mean, in the lead up to the tournament, there was a lot of anxiety about, you know, Trump administration policies, the impact on the quality of play from the expansion of the tournament to more teams, ticket prices.

4:49I know that one has not been resolved because I've been on stuff. Oh my God. Um, people are, people don't love FIFA generally, right? Johnny Infantino and given the, you know, fucking FIFA peace prize and stuff. But once the game started, the conversation shifted to the play on the field, the clips of, you know, the, the Scottish fans, at Fenway Park singing, you know, through the seventh inning of a game. Is that like just what happens every FIFA World Cup? Like there's anxieties and then the play starts and we move on? Or what do you make of it? Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. So you go, I've covered so many, so many World Cups and I've played in a couple of them.

5:27But prior to the World Cup, everyone expresses their fears and their concerns. There's a lot of anticipation and excitement as well, the positive side. But also, let's not go back too far, but let's go to 2014 in Brazil. All the fans with thousands and thousands of people on the streets demonstrating the fact that they're spending so much money on the World Cup, stadiums, etc., rather than the infrastructure and perhaps the health service in Brazil. Roll on four years, we're in Russia. Four years previously, they'd invaded Crimea. So that was a massive concern. when we go on to Qatar and there was concerns about LGBTQ plus rights, people have been dying, building the stadiums.

6:13But again, going into this one, we were obviously worried about the situation, who's going to be allowed into this country, which we never had before. We did have concerns, obviously, when the referee, the Somalian referee, wasn't allowed in. But, you know, everyone was worried about ICE taking fans off the streets, but that's thankfully not really transpired. So, yeah, it was ever thus, really. And, you know, during the World Cups, there are always things that you don't like and there's been things like, you said the ticket price, and I think it's outrageous. I mean, FIFA is supposed to be a non-for-profit organisation.

6:51They've got billions of pounds or dollars or euros in Swiss banks. And obviously, they always say it goes back into the game and a lot of it, of course, does. But I don't think it's right when you've got something as special as a World Cup that profit becomes the most important thing rather than the experience of football fans. I don't think it's right that fans should have to take out a mortgage or sell their car to get a ticket to go and watch a football match. So I don't like that. I don't like the interference we've had in this World Cup in terms of what happened with Balogun. the American forward that was, he got a red card, which was, I thought, a really poor decision.

7:38But they didn't reverse the decision. They just postponed the fact that he's suspension. So, which felt wrong. And now we've got an English player in exactly the same position. He's got two game ban. So you just think, how can this possibly happen? So there are always things in the tournament. But I think the positives far outweigh the negatives overall. Yeah, FIFA is, well, I want to ask you about FIFA in a bit. I'm sure they're a non-profit. I would love to see what the line item is for Gianni Infantino's private jet this month because he's at a lot of games that are far away. And boy, they cut to him a bunch during the broadcast, I've noticed.

8:12Before we get to that, though, so you played on some of the biggest professional clubs in England, also in Spain. You played for England in 80 international games. How does the feeling of stepping onto the field at the World Cup compare to those other big games and moments? Nothing like it. Represent a new country at a World Cup. I think it's the most special thing you can ever do. I would compare it probably to an athlete in the Olympic Games. That's their moment every four years. But this is sort of, it's a little bit different to just a medal table compare, you know, the US are always there with China, and it's always the same people because there's so many different sports involved.

8:55but football is kind of a global sport even you guys have joined in a little bit now you're trying a bit of interest I've noticed so which is great so it's a chance really I don't think there's anything like it where you can show your patrioticness supporting your country but at the same time we can all get on and enjoy it so it is unique And when you walk out, you know, representing your country and you stand there and they're playing the national anthem and especially if things go well. I mean, it's just it's hard to describe. It's just like it's just like this huge explosion of joy and pride.

9:41It's amazing. You had a hat trick against Poland in the 1986 World Cup. They were going through some shit at the time. You know, they had one party rule. They had Chernobyl. Did you feel bad about that at all? Do you feel bad about, you know, beating them that bad? Um, I don't know. If I'm really honest, not particularly. I mean, obviously, some terrible things in all countries suffer at different times. And we've been responsible for a lot of it over hundreds of years. But no, when you're on that football pitch, you just want to play and you want to score and you want to win. And it's nothing like that.

10:18You were tougher on that country than communism even. I mean, that was a tough game. Now you transition from player to broadcaster to podcaster. Do you ever feel bad about taking podcasting jobs away from unathletic schlubs that used to have them? I don't think I've done that. I think we've added lots of podcasts. I've got a company called Goal Hanger. You got some unathletic schlubs on the payroll, do you feel like? We've definitely got some of those. Okay. Save some downloads for the rest of us, all right? We've got political pods as well. Yeah, yeah, no, you do. You have some great ones. So you mentioned this earlier, the story about Trump calling the FIFA president to lift the suspension against one of America's best players, Flo Balogun, so he could play against Belgium.

11:00So the U.S., we got worked in that game. We lost badly. So the suspension of Balogun's red card didn't matter much in terms of the outcome of that specific game. But as you said, that decision is going to be, it's going to hang around FIFA's neck for a long time. So do you think Balogun deserved a red card on the play? And what has the international reaction been to what FIFA did? How big a deal is this? It's a pretty big deal because I think it goes against the integrity of our sport. You've got to have rules and they've got to be fair and they've got to be the same for everyone. You can't have one rule for one and one rule for another.

11:37Not in our sport. And we've never had anything, I don't think, quite like this before. So, you know, whilst it probably, well, it most certainly didn't make any difference or it might have had some kind of negative effect on America's performance with all the hullabaloo around the story. I don't think so. I mean, Belgium were always likely to beat the US. It's, you know, it's not your, obviously your primary sport in this country. You're on a road. I think you're on a journey to where football is growing in this country. and you've got a league now that's, you know, you've got one or two of the best players in the world.

12:17Messi's here. So I think it is growing, but I've always wondered why in terms of FIFA that they're so obsessed with trying to get America to be super interested in our sport. Because if ever you are, if you ever get all your real athletes playing our game, you might be bloody good and that would be really irritating. Yeah, I hear you. I mean, look, I knew we were in trouble in that game. Well, we were in trouble already. But when Belgium subbed in a striker who had been named league MVP in the Serie A late in the game, this guy Lukaku, and then we subbed in the former coach's son who played for an MLS club in Canada, that kind of told you everything about the quality of the players who were out there.

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15:45Sundays for dogs dot com slash crooked or use the code crooked at checkout. Let me ask you about that U.S. team, though. So I got to see the U.S. team play against Panama. It was one of the most fun experiences, period, I've ever been to sports, whatever, concerts, anything. Everyone left that stadium full of hope and excitement and saying the same thing. Like, this is our breakout year. And throughout the group stage, we looked pretty good. We were operating on, felt like we were operating on a different level. And then Belgium shows up and they kicked the shit out of us. And it's an unbiased outsider.

16:20Like, give it to us straight, Gary. Were we actually any better this year, the U.S. team? And what do you think happened against Belgium? well I think I remember being interviewed early on after the um before the tournament and you're always asked obviously how the host nation will go or the one of those nations uh America which and I always said if they got to the last 16 I think that would be a really good effort um I couldn't really seriously see them getting past anyone that was any good like a proper big European team, one of the North African sides. But I thought the fact that they did so well in the group stage was a real plus for the States and the tournament as a whole because you want the host nations doing reasonably well.

17:08So if I'm really honest, rather than being diplomatic, I would say that's as far as I ever saw them going. It's funny, after that first game, you talked about the Panama game when they had that incredible first half and it was really good to see. And I know Mauricio really well, Pochettino. And he's a delightful man and I'm really pleased for him for that. And it was a terrific performance. All my American friends were coming at me and texting me and saying, you were wrong about us, we're going to go all the way. And I was going, mate, honestly, I know these World Cups and it's always the hope that kills you.

17:47As soon as you start believing a little bit, it all goes wrong. As an Englishman, I'm very experienced in that. It's happened many, many times. But overall, I thought they did pretty well. I think the palaver surrounding Balogun's thing did. I don't think it helped them. I think if, I think Mauricio missed the trick there. I think he should have just said, no, we're not doing that. It's not right. I think he could, I think it would have been a very difficult thing to do. And if they'd have lost in the same way, having done that, he would have been probably hung out to dry. So it's easy for me to say that.

18:20But I think it probably had some kind of effect. But overall, you know, you've got you've got half a good team, but there's not much depth yet. And hopefully the sport will grow, but we'll see. Yeah. Pochettino had sat Balogun. I think he might have been the first guy thrown into ice detention while in a stadium by Trump. So, you know, challenging situation to be in. What do you make of the criticism of America's star player, Christian Pulisic? He did not have a great World Cup. He subbed himself off with an injury. I've seen some former U.S. men's national team players specifically criticizing him, which feels, I'm sure that's painful for him.

18:58But what do you make of this? I think it's a little unfair because I think his abilities were taken a little bit out of proportion. I mean, Pulisic is a very good player, very, very good footballer. He's had a good career. He's played in England. He's played in Italy. he's a good footballer but you know he's on all the billboards here we're doing the show from here and from Times Square and he's everywhere and you think well that's it's almost like he's Messi or Ronaldo and with all due respect he's a very good footballer but he's not a great player he's not he's not one of the best in the world by a long stretch but I think when you're the you've got carrying the hearts of a nation and the hopes of a nation, that pressure was probably so much.

19:48So I feel for him, actually, because whilst it's probably exciting to be treated as the big superstar of a World Cup, in reality, that was never realistically going to happen. So I can sympathise with him to a degree. He doesn't deserve all the criticism. Football is very, very hard. It's difficult. You know, you're playing best players in the world and they're out to stop you. You know, I've played as a forward all my career. And we have these things called defenders. And they're out there to stop you. By hook or by crook, they'll try it in some way. Every World Cup, we kind of talk about, is this the U.S.'s year?

20:28Are we going to take soccer to the next level? And it's to the point where it's kind of become a running joke. But, like, what would that entail? Is that more developing the professional level? Are we talking about, like, getting more kids involved, all of the above? or all of the above really. You've got a long way to go. What you need, you've got a league now, which is, you know, you've had a league before. Obviously, it didn't quite work. Right. And it started again. Now you've got a league. You need to work out a plan for youth football. I mean, obviously, you've set great examples in the women's game.

21:01You're probably the best in the world at that. Yeah, they're amazing. I would say they're amazing. but you need I think it needs an overall plan and where you've got to really I think concentrate on the young the youth players the kids get them taught properly I know I've spent a lot of time in America over the years and I've been to I've seen there's a lot of football camps but you need some kind of proper organisation probably led by the various MLS clubs around the country where they can recruit the best talent and get them properly trained and coached. Obviously, you've got a very different system to us and Europe in all football, really, of how you deal with players that are young.

21:50In our country, for example, and the same applies across Europe, if you've got any hope of being a soccer player, you've got to join a club when you're 16. Your education, they will give you education on the side, but you have to start at 16. Obviously in America with your sports, they go to college or they go to university and they get draft picks. And if you do that in football, it's too late. It's too late. By the time you're 20, there will be, there's always examples that will prove that wrong, but not that many. So I think the whole, I think you really need to have a good think and a proper planning in terms of not just wait for a World Cup and then hope it goes well, But build a long-term future.

22:35Look 10, 20, 30 years ahead because it is realistically going to take that long for you to challenge. So 2030 is our year is what you're telling me. So let me talk about FIFA. FIFA, famously corrupt organization. In 2015, we watched a bunch of FIFA officials get dragged out of a hotel in Zurich in their underwear. They were indicted for taking bribes. It's like$150 million in bribes, all these sports marketing executives, too. DOJ has accused FIFA of accepting bribes from reps from Russia and Qatar to get those hosting rights in those countries. Sepp Blatter, the former president of FIFA, he's currently banned from soccer-related activities.

23:18Johnny Infantino, the new guy, doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. I don't know. I'm a casual watching this stuff. Given how much money stands to be made from international soccer, do you have hope of reforming the organization? And what would that even look like? I've been hoping for that for a long time. Yeah. I find it quite depressing, particularly the cases you talked about. I was in the room when Qatar and Russia were given the World Cup. I didn't have a particular problem with Russia. It's a big footballer nation. They'd never hosted it. and I don't really have a problem with it being in the Middle East and Qatar either but what hurt, what made it feel dirty was it was so obvious that the bids were corrupt and it was latterly proved to be the case that a lot of them took backhanders for their votes so I remember thinking this is just truly awful for our game And then obviously it changed and Fantino came in.

24:25I met him. He's a nice guy. I spent time with him. And I was hopeful. I was really hopeful that this would be a change. I don't think for one minute now they're putting bongs to people, putting packets full of cash to get votes for the World Cup or individuals or who's going to host it. But I don't like the fact that they're making that much money. And I don't see why they need to do that because, you know, yes, it goes back into the game. But does it? Does it? We don't really know. It's all a little bit secretive and in the Swiss banks. So it concerns me. But the sport itself is good. but I think it's the same in all things, isn't it?

25:17It's like if you look, even if you look at politics across the world and then the example of this World Cup where all fans come together and actually we just want to get on. I think 90 % of the world just want to have a life. They want to be able to afford to eat. They want to have a nice home and just get on with it. And I think actually we really like each other all in all. But it's the people at the top, the leaders, the leaders of whether it's governments or FIFA, They just don't seem to get that. It's all, I don't know whether it's greed or it's ego or whatever it is, but I find it very depressing.

25:50Yeah, me too.

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