Did Trump's Supreme Court Rig the Midterms?

21:09Dan Pfeiffer:Go get it. Yeah, I mean, it's the reason why it's specifically important is it denies Trump another vacancy on the Fed board. Yes, that too. And this I think this is a couple things. One, he Jerome Powell knows knows how power is deployed and how to use it. And this gives him leverage over Trump for the investigation, because the original investigation was dropped, because Tom Tillis would not approve Kevin Warsh as the next Fed chair until the investigation into Jerome Powell was dropped by the DOJ. The fact that you can just drop the investigation at the whim of a senator suggests it was not that serious of an investigation to begin with.

21:46But of course, we knew that. And it also, I think, says something about how Jerome Powell feels about Kevin Warsh, or at least some fears that Kevin Warsh might be more of a Trump stooge than he suggested in his hearings. And so he wants to be there to keep an eye on him. So I think hats off to Jerome Powell.

22:04Dan Pfeiffer:This is, Jerome Powell, we salute you, really, honestly. Get Tony DeCoppo on the line. Can I say one other thing? And that is, don't forget that Jerome Powell was appointed by Donald Trump. Yes, he was. So maybe whatever magic, you know, Jerome Powell has in his fingertips can be sprinkled on to Kevin Warsh as he takes the reins of the Fed. Well, from your from your lips to Kevin Warsh's ears. OK, one last thing on the Department of Justice. As we discussed, Trump is trying to use the correspondence dinner attack to justify building his ballroom, which is his true passion project. The Department of Justice filed a brief on Monday asking a judge to dismiss the lawsuit that's holding up construction.

22:43Alex, I think you noted that the language in the filing was a bit unusual, so to speak. What do you know?

22:49Dan Pfeiffer:Well, can I just read you a little excerpt from this? For people who haven't, you would be - This is your second legal document reading of this podcast. Listen, I play Andrew Weissman on this podcast. Watch out. Watch out for strict scrutiny. Watch out, Kate Shaw, Leah Littman, Melissa Murray. Okay. This filing is like, I mean, literally, it was dictated by Donald Trump, if not actually written by Donald Trump and then just printed out on DOJ letterhead. Like, here's some of the language in it relating to the ballroom. If any other president had the ability, foresight, or talents necessary to build this ballroom, which will be one of the greatest, safest, and most secure structures of its kind anywhere in the world, capital W on world, there would never have been a lawsuit.

23:32Dan Pfeiffer:But because it is all caps, Donald J. Trump, a highly successful real estate developer who has abilities that others don't, especially those who assume the office of president, this frivolous and meritless lawsuit was filed. Again, it's called all caps Trump Derangement Syndrome. On top of everything else, this project is a gift to our country from President Trump and other donors. It is free of charge to the American taxpayer. Who could ever object to that? A lot of title case in there that I didn't get into because it just was becoming too much. But clearly, you know, if you're wondering whether Todd Blanche wants to be attorney general, this kind of thing is the only proof you need.

24:10Dan Pfeiffer:And if you were wondering if literally the dumbest people in the world may be now populating our Department of Justice, here's confirmation that the dumbest people in the world are perverting our justice system to be an ego boost for Donald Trump. I guess the best thing I can say about Donald Trump is that his desire for the ballroom is his most authentic self. Like it is like it is still remains wild to me that after someone brought a gun to potentially try to assassinate Donald Trump, his first instinct, right? Like a more magnanimous person would call for national unity, call for the toning down of political rhetoric, would look inward at perhaps the things they had said, the way they'd celebrated the deaths of their political enemies, the riot they sparked at the Capitol, the calls for the hanging of their vice president.

25:06And it would have done those things. Or a cynical person would use it to advance their political agenda in some way, shape, or form. And instead, Trump used that moment to push for the ballroom. Because that is the thing he truly wants more than anything else. It's the thing he cares about. It's the thing he's obsessed with. It is very, very strange. It is quite unpopular. It is a gift to Democrats. It is just like a, like, God bless him for doing it. I hope he does it all the time. I hope he runs a ballroom fall campaign. I hope he tours ballrooms in the battleground states. I hope he brings swing voters to a roundtable where they discuss the marble to be used in the ballroom.

25:45I hope they do all of those things, like more ballroom, the better Donald Trump.

25:50Dan Pfeiffer:Just to note, to the point of how unpopular it is, the Washington Post is out with a poll today showing Americans reject Donald Trump's planned ballroom, I believe, by a two to one margin, Dan. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. He's not going to let the public stand in the way of his ballroom. No, sure. Reason, financial, politics, reason, law, none of it will stand in the way of this ballroom. Speaking of affordability, Pete Hegseth was on the Hill on Thursday for a second day of testimony defending a war that has now driven the price of gas to an average of$4.30 a gallon. Of course, Hegseth was his typically modest and contrite self.

26:26Here's a sampling. Many congressional Democrats, as I pointed out, want to declare defeat two months in. iraq took how many years afghanistan took how many years and they were nebulous missions that people went along with this is different the biggest adversary we face at this point are the reckless feckless and defeatist words of congressional democrats and some republicans can i speak or are you just going to monologue falsehoods all over the place it's not a false we moved 7 500 troops reclaiming my time based on the intel stop just address the election issue

27:01Alex Wagner:Please. Well, again, that's the most important thing. It's what's happening. It's yet another gotcha hypothetical, which is your special. It's not.

27:09Dan Pfeiffer:Tell the American people, will you deploy the uniform military to our polls to collect voter rolls or machines? Are you accusing me of performing because you're performing for cable news right now? What stood out to you from the two days of hearings and how do you think Democrats did overall? You know, I love these Hill hearings. I do? Well, just because they were, I mean, if you needed any more evidence that this is a group of idiots and stooges and corrupt actors who populate the president's cabinet. Clowns, if you will, to tie it all back together again. And by the way, it's like, it's a curse actually going up to the Hill because you see who's gone up and like they've been summarily dismissed shortly thereafter.

27:51Dan Pfeiffer:And Hegseth is always on been nice, right? I mean, Bondi, Noem, now Hegseth. Amazing that this is the first testimony that he's given in the 60 days of this war, near 60 days of this war. I was struck by his impertinence. I mean, duh, but it is so galling in a moment when a war is being conducted at the expense of the American taxpayer in America's name and is killing American service members. The idea that you as a secretary of defense would go up there and have an attitude towards lines of questioning about how much the war cost, that you wouldn't be transparent about how American lives have been lost and would just offhandedly mention that there was a 14th casualty as if that wasn't a big deal, a 14th American casualty, I should say.

28:34Dan Pfeiffer:And just utterly, you know, refuse to recognize that the people who decide whether any of this is worth it, the people who decide whether they want to pay for it are not the Secretary of War, not the Secretary of Defense. It's the American people. And these are their elected representatives asking legitimate lines of questions about what's happening. And I just, I think it's all fucked. But this in particular, this war is so fucked and so not what the American public wants that to not even begin to try and sell it or explain what is happening is such a betrayal of the sort of foundational parts of our democracy.

29:14Dan Pfeiffer:And the other piece of it, I would say, Dan, is just the corruption inside that Pentagon is really obvious, right? Like there are two lines of questioning. Today, when he's up at the Senate, he's asked, or actually, I think yesterday as well, he was asked about his special advisor, Tim Parlatore, the president's former personal lawyer, who is clearly representing either unsavory people or foreign actors in his private law practice, but now, through a sleight of hand, is a senior advisor at the Pentagon and has access to classified information. Hegseth knows this is a liability. He knows there's something very crooked in all of this and refused to really answer any questions or shed light on that arrangement.

29:54Dan Pfeiffer:And then Hegseth was asked about, from Elizabeth Warren today, about stock trades that happened right before the Pentagon announced we were attacking Iran. And Hegseth refused to answer any questions about people inside the DOD who might be profiting off of Trump's catastrophic war in the Middle East, in Iran. There's so much bad stuff happening at the Pentagon. It's hard to know where to begin. This hearing tells you something you see in the press conferences, too, that Hexet does, which is that in his mind, he is not accountable to Congress. He's not accountable to the Senate that approved his nomination.

30:29He's not accountable to the American people. He's not accountable to the Constitution. He is accountable only to Donald Trump and no one else. And the way in which he—like, this is all a performance for Trump. That is who it is for. if that is what he is trying to do. He's trying, he knows he is on, he's kind of on thin ice because Trump has repeatedly pointed out that going to war was Pete Hicks, that's idea, which is usually the sign that Donald Trump is looking for someone to take blame for an unpopular idea. He knows, like he definitely knows down deep in that very vacuous soul of his that he is totally in over his head.

31:04Like he's trying so hard not to look like he is scared shitless that he looks scared shitless to be in this job. I do, this is not an important part, but I do think it's funny that in that part where he declares, like this should not be washed over, that the greatest adversary the American military faces is not Iran. It's not some of Iran's allies around the world who are helping them in this war like Russia. It is democratic members of Congress for their rhetoric. But in doing that, what is the best part about that is, is that he says in there, at this point, as if like they went through the testimony and they were like, look, we need a caveat in here just in case another threat emerges.

31:43We must say at this point, like it is, it's been, the whole thing is fucking bananas every time he speaks. It is like, it is an embarrassment to the Pentagon, to the country, to the troops who serve at his command. It is just, it is terrible.

32:00Dan Pfeiffer:I will say, I thought it was great that the Democrats, I mean, it's not that these people happen to be on these committees, so it's not like they were championed, leadership, but that you had so many veterans who know from combat, whether it's Mark Kelly and Alyssa Slotkin or Jason Crow, who were incredibly tenacious. Pat Ryan. These people know what war is and they know what the battlefield is. And for them to be going after and really pointed and I think emotion, like they're clearly very angry for them to be exasperated and outraged with Hegseth, I think is meaningful. And it's also a different side of the Democratic Party, Right.

32:35Dan Pfeiffer:Like we just the tent is so big. But, you know, you can be I don't know. I think it's a good moment for Democrats when that is the sort of juxtaposition. You know, everyone has been, you know, Trump ran as the no wars president. He's been very, very sensitive to the political costs of these wars. So there has been this question. Why did this happen? And Ashley Parker and Mike Shearer of The Atlantic had an incredible piece this week called the YOLO presidency that kind of answers the question. and they quote someone close to Trump saying this. He's been talking recently about how he is the most powerful person to ever live.

33:11He wants to be remembered as the one who did things that others couldn't do because of his sheer power and force of will. This includes Iran. According to sources in the story, Trump doesn't care about losing the House. He only slightly worries about losing the Senate because it would mean a longer impeachment trial. What did you think of this piece?

33:27Dan Pfeiffer:It's like, I think my favorite piece that I read this week, it's so, it is full bonkers. You mentioned that Trump is his full self when he's talking about ballroom renovations. He's his full self when he is in like home reno mode. He is, according to this reporting, walking around gluing challenge coins, those military commemorative coins. He's gluing challenge coins to the doors of the White House, to various offices in the administration in the White House. Like an old grandpa just like dusting off his fishing rods to put on display in the garage. I mean, it's literally the idea that Trump has just has forsaken political reality and doesn't give a shit about the midterms or the legislative branch.

34:10Dan Pfeiffer:And instead thinks of himself as a man who has embarked on a great mission, a la Alexander the Great, Napoleon and Julius Caesar. Those are the three great men mentioned in this piece. Like, first of all, I guarantee you that Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, and Napoleon Bonaparte could get the motherfucking Strait of Hormuz open, okay? They're like the greatest military tacticians in world history. The idea that Trump puts himself on that level is both deluded and dangerous, and it should inform our thinking about any kind of, quote unquote, strategy that comes from this White House, right?

34:45Dan Pfeiffer:It is a cult. It is no longer, you know, he's not the head of a party. He's just, I mean, he is in the worst way, in the way that dictators care only about their legacy and no longer about the country or the republic or whatever it is they're governing. That's Trump. I mean, it's, it's, there, there's, he doesn't care about the, he apparently didn't care about his running mate in 2024 because he said at one point in the article, who cares? I'll be dead. I don't care about what happens to MAGA after. I mean, just think about that as the organizing principle. Next time you wonder why Trump's doing that, something that so obviously is going to disable his party in the coming midterms or 2028 presidential elections.

35:25I mean, it is a great piece. Mike and Ashley are top notch. They're at the Post for a long time. They're at the Atlantic now. They're great reporters and great writers. The funny part of the piece is it begins with this rhetorical question about whether Trump has been reading the works of Hegel because of Hegel's theory of world historical individuals, like sort of great man theory. And obviously, Mike and Ashley don't think that Trump is doing that. But in the piece, it says, like they asked some Trump aides if he'd been reading Hegel, and they all sort of laughed with the idea that Trump's not much of a reader, which I know we know that.

35:59But there just is something very concerning about the fact that the president doesn't read.

36:04Dan Pfeiffer:Yeah. Right? He doesn't read books, doesn't read briefings. Yeah, he doesn't read. He kind of reads the New York Times, I guess. I think it was Scansa Headlines. He has the human printer print out the headlines that are favorable to him. He is a fundamentally incurious person. But it's more than that. The self-absorption has reached true malignant narcissism. And we're just along for the ride, Dan. We're just along for the ride. And what a bumpy ride it's been. Yeah, runaway country.

36:37Alex Wagner:Pod Save America is brought to you by Armour Colostrum. Armour Colostrum is a simple nature-inspired addition to your daily routine. With over 400 bioactive nutrients, it helps support your gut and immune health to build a stronger foundation for your everyday wellness. When you prioritize your body's baseline, you're better equipped to show up with focus and energy no matter what the day holds. While many turn to probiotics for gut support, they often only focus on one part of a complex system. Armour Colostrum works differently by providing comprehensive nourishment for your gut's natural barrier.

37:03Alex Wagner:It's designed to help sustain your microbiome and support your body's natural defenses against the stressors of modern life. Armour Colostrum provides a blueprint of nutrients that complement your body's natural renewal process from supporting skin and hair vibrancy to assisting with daily recovery. It's the ultimate tool for those looking to optimize their wellbeing at the cellular level. Research also shows that colostrum can be a powerful ally for your active life. It supports the body's natural ability to absorb nutrients and maintain lean muscle. We've worked out a special offer for our audience.

37:27Alex Wagner:Receive 30 % off your first subscription order. Go to armour.com slash crooked or enter crooked to get 30 % off your first subscription order. That's A-R-M-R-A.com slash crooked. arma.com slash crooked pod save america is brought to you by quince this time of year you might start to be more intentional about what you wear day to day leaning into pieces that feel easy comfortable and still put together quince's go-tos to upgrade your wardrobe the fabrics feel elevated the fits are clean and everything just works without needing to overthink it quince is all the wardrobe staples for spring think 100 european linen shorts and shirts from 34 lightweight breathable and comfortable, but still look put together and clean.

38:05Alex Wagner:100 % Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants also hit that same balance, relaxed and comfortable, but still polished enough to wear pretty much anywhere. Everything is priced 50 to 80 % less than what you find with similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories, cuts out the middlemen, so you're getting premium materials without the markup. I bought a bunch of stuff from Quince, both for myself, kind of like basic t-shirts, stuff like that, and also some really nice sweaters for people at the holidays. By the way, Mother's Day is coming up. It's a chance to buy a nice gift from Quince.

38:34Alex Wagner:Beautiful stuff for mom. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash crooked for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com slash crooked for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash crooked.

38:57Even as Trump is dead set on doing unpopular things like focus on the ballroom and the war in Iran, the Supreme Court's conservative majority in Florida Republicans are riding to his rescue. In a ruling on Wednesday, the Supreme Court threw out Louisiana's congressional map and hollowed out the Voting Rights Act even further. Louisiana's Republican governor announced on Thursday that the state will delay its House primaries on May 16th in order to redraw the map, which could see at least one majority Black district drawn out of existence. In her dissent, which she read from the bench, Justice Kagan wrote, The court's decision will set back the foundational right Congress granted of racial equality and electoral opportunity and said that it would have grave consequences.

39:34Alex, what do you make of this ruling?

39:35Dan Pfeiffer:I think the ruling is important because it is a statement from the highest court in the land about racism and what the court believes about the lawfulness of measures to combat racism, right? Effectively, the court says gerrymandering is fine if it's partisan gerrymandering, never mind if that partisan gerrymandering has explicitly racial and racist undertones. Adam Serwer writes so beautifully and compellingly about the court and race in America, and his assessment of this I think is worth noting. Um, he, Serwer states that the, the court has ruled that the state is oppressive when it interferes with the right to discriminate and respects liberty when it allows discrimination.

40:22Dan Pfeiffer:And I think that's totally true, right? That it's trying to disenfranchise black voters, which is exactly what's happening here in the court's eyes. that's not racist. But preventing Louisiana from disenfranchising black voters, that is racist because it ultimately redounds to the disadvantage of white people. Like it is so the logic here is so upside down. And first of all, at odds with how we understand racism in America, to say nothing of public opinion. Did you know, Dan, that 50 percent of black America lives in the South. I mean, the implications for this are vast, right? Like in Louisiana has, I think a third of the population is black and it's, you know, they're trying to create two majority black districts out of six.

41:08Dan Pfeiffer:And what the court has done here is just a wholesale inversion of, first of all, what Congress intended in its reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act in the 1980s. We're not going to get, I mean, we don't need to get into this sort of intent versus effects piece of this, But nonetheless, the Supreme Court, which, when convenient, defers to Congress, has chosen to completely upend congressional intention here, which is pretty clear, in furtherance of a project that began decades ago and which Sam Alito and Clarence Thomas and John Roberts were all a part of when they were young staffers and a young judge during the Reagan years.

41:41Dan Pfeiffer:And like the project of unwinding civil rights progress, the project of reversing attempts to make a more equitable society has long been one of the foundational goals of the right wing movement that began in the wake of, you know, the 1960s and 1970s. So like, congrats, I guess, to the Roberts court for doing this. This is like a real dismantling of civil rights progress and will have vast repercussions, not just electorally and politically, but for our society. When you disenfranchise, 20 % of this country will also affect Latinos and Asians in states like California. When you disenfranchise people of color in this country, you have a less representative democracy.

42:23Dan Pfeiffer:You have a less just country. You don't have the America that I think we all aspire to. There's so much to say about this ruling, and I'll get to the political impacts in a second. But John Roberts, who has gotten a bit of a improved reputation over the years about some of the rulings and the tariff case, a couple other anti-Trump ones. But long before Trump, John Roberts' main project as chief justice was the dismantling of the Voting Rights Act. through these decisions, Shelby County versus Holder, there's Brnovich, there's now this one. This is destroying one of the most important pieces of civil rights legislation in American history.

42:57Like in this, all the headlines are like, they hollowed out, which I said here, they limited. That is maybe true in the words that Alito used, but in actual practice, they struck down section two, as we understand it. The ability to, like what was left here is they allowed partisan gerrymandering as a principle in Shelby County. Now what they have done is essentially said that the last possible way in which you could stop prevent gerrymandering, which was designed and inherently always will dilute the power of black voters. If you were trying to dilute the power of Democratic voters in a state, the way in which you do that is you dilute the population that votes at 80 to 90 percent for Democrats.

43:42And so they say they're now saying that is OK. That is what is happening here. It has dramatic implications. You say, Louisiana, 30 % of its population is black. They're going to only have one representative at best when this is over. In several states like Alabama and Mississippi, after this is all said and done, at some point in the future, we'll have no black representatives, even though they have 30 % of their population is black. They are going to eliminate the Democratic delegations in most southern states because of this. They are going to cut down the number of black members in places like North Carolina and elsewhere.

44:18And, you know, by some estimates, 30 % of the Congressional Black Caucus would be gone if the Republicans push forward to maximum advantage with gerrymandering with these new laws. So the question is, in this midterm, what is the actual impact? The Republicans are going to get one more seat out of Louisiana. I think we're going to talk a bit about the map in Florida, but this gives more legal cover to what's a pretty illegal map in Florida. And then in Tennessee, there are a handful of states, because this is coming so late in the cycle, there's limits to what Republicans can do. The filing deadlines have passed in all 50 states.

44:56Many states have held their primaries. Other states have held their, have not held their primaries, but early voting has already started. And so it's very, like, it would create mass chaos to do, to redraw the maps at this late stage of the game. But there are some places where they can do it. Tennessee is one of those places. There is one Democratic district in Tennessee, Steve Cohen in the Memphis area, I believe, hosts it, or represents it. Trump spoke to the governor of Tennessee today to try to encourage him to redraw the maps before the election. Marsha Blackburn, who is the senator from Tennessee, who's running for governor in Tennessee, called for this.

45:31You could see that happening here. They could do something similar in Missouri, in South Carolina. I'm not sure they'll be able to do that. In Georgia, where early voting has started. It started this week, I believe. There are some Republicans calling for a special session to redraw the maps. Would Brian Kemp do that? I don't know. But you can sort of, it's going to help Republicans in this election. But the longer term consequence is a House that's going to be less Democratic, small D, less Democratic, big D. It's going to be much whiter, which one of my sub-stack subscribers said would be like adding white food coloring to mayonnaise.

46:03So, which I Very funny. And not aioli.

46:08Dan Pfeiffer:We're not talking aioli. We're talking about Hellman's. Yes, we are talking about super white Hellman's mayonnaise. And it's just, it's like, this is terrible for democracy. And it's going to mean, going forward, a structural advantage for Republicans in the House that is akin to the one they currently hold in the Senate. Can Democrats take the majority under that scenario? Absolutely. And we might win enough seats this time to do that, even under a post-Supreme Court decision map. But you're going to need a bigger wave every time to do it. This is a very, very bad decision in the long run. I don't think it's not going to cost us the House this election, but it's going to hurt in the long run.

46:46Dan Pfeiffer:Can I ask, I mean, because I'm a loyal MessageBox subscriber, a paid subscriber, as all true Americans should be. Yes, all true Americans. And you said it, I'll quote you, Dan, pretending we're still playing. Legal documents and MessageBox in the same episode. Listen, I came with fucking receipts, dude. What do you think? you think I'm going to Favreau my way through this? I show up when Dan Pfeiffer asks me to be his guest on Pod Save America. Pretending we're still playing the old game is how we lose the house for a generation. Every governor's race, every state legislative chamber, every secretary of state contest in 2026 is now a redistricting fight.

47:23Dan Pfeiffer:Act accordingly. Mic drop. Okay. Those are good marching orders. If you weren't fired up about a secretary of state contest in your in your state, get fucking excited because it matters. And it's and this is going to mean that Democrats across the country are going to have to do what Democrats in Virginia and California did, which is they're going to have to redraw their maps to maximum effect. That's going to mean Illinois, New York, Maryland, where there was resistance this time in states that have reddish anti gerrymandering ballot initiatives or constitutional amendments. We should try to undo those if they were in blue states like this.

47:56And the high road. I think gerrymandering is bad.

48:00Dan Pfeiffer:It is. But we have to do this up until the moment where we have enough power to pass a national ban on partisan gerrymandering. And just worth remembering, every single Democrat voted for a bill that would ban national gerrymandering, and every single Republican voted against a national ban on gerrymandering. Can I ask something even more explosive? Yes, of course. I know you're looking at Republican state houses, but what about the Republican Supreme Court? Isn't it time to think about this body of—this body is so undemocratic. I understand they are constitutionally outlined to have these powers.

48:36Dan Pfeiffer:But what the court is doing is so undemocratic. And I think Alito and Thomas, or Alito or Thomas, could retire at the end of this court term and allow Trump to appoint two zygotes and solidify a conservative majority. You know, the zygotes are human beings. And like, should there not be a conversation if Democrats retake power around court reform? Yes, 100 percent. I have I thought that we should have undertaken that effort when we had power in 2021. Now, we didn't have enough Democrats to get rid of the filibuster to do that. And there certainly wasn't support for court expansion. But I there like this is one of those things that I don't think we need to run on.

49:19But once we do win, we should do it, which is like there should we should look at term limits. We should look at court expansion. There should obviously be a code of ethics for these corrupt assholes who are doing things like like. Yes, like this is a gigantic problem. And long after Trump has moved on to work full time on ballrooms and home run out projects at Mar-a-Lago, the his legacy for decades afterwards is going to haunt us because of this court. And so every option should be on the table to deal with that.

49:50Dan Pfeiffer:If you're wondering how we got to this point where so many conservatives populate our federal judiciary and our highest court in the land, I have a book coming out this fall that details the rise of all of it. Alex, what's your book called? It's called The Steal. The Steal. And can people pre-order it now? I believe they can, although I think I'm supposed to be doing some swishy rollout for all of it in social media. But yes, if you Google Alex Wagner, The Steel, I have a cover here somewhere. Anyway, it's coming out September 15th. I think I should really know. Do you know what the number one item on everyone's swishy book rollout for liberal political books is?

50:27Dan Pfeiffer:What? Posse of America. Oh. Okay, actually, it's Heather Cox Richardson. That's this show. After Heather Cox Richardson, it's Posse of America. Wait a second. That's this show. Yes, you were on it. You're not even just guest on it. You're hosting it. Good Lord. Oh, my God. This is going to be great. Go Google this book. Dan, don't think this is the only promotion we're doing for that book on this show. But I respect the time that we're allotting to book promotion right now. Trust me. As someone who has written three books since I've been a Potsdamerica co-host, I can shake a stick at no one's book promotions because mine have been quite voluminous.

51:00I basically annoyed people into buying my books.

51:04Dan Pfeiffer:No, you're never annoying. That works. You should try it. You're never annoying. All right. Also on Wednesday, just to add to the bad news here, Florida advanced its aggressive new congressional map, which could net Republicans four seats in the House. There's been some speculation that this new map will be a, quote, DeSantis dummy mander. What do you make of that?

51:24Dan Pfeiffer:I meant to look up Meatball Ron and whether that was his nickname, and I didn't do it. That was a, it was a, I looked it up. It was a private nickname that Trump was reported to use, Ron. I'm not, I don't know if it ever made it to Truth Social, but he was I'm sorry, I expect all bad things to come out of Florida. Are you asking me whether, I mean, like, do you think, do I think this is going to happen? Yes, I think this is going to happen. I think we should expect the worst, craziest shit to emanate from Ron DeSantis' Florida. So this is no exception. Yeah, so a dummy mander is a term of art for when, and it's okay.

51:56No, no, I'm happy to jump in here. A dummy mander is a term of art for when the new map performs worse than the old map. And so there's some question here because most experts thought that DeSantis could add two seats safely. And once you add four seats, you're at risk of spreading the peanut butter too thin here. So the math of gerrymandering or redistricting is pretty simple. You have a static number of Republican voters. To make more Republican districts, you must move them out of safe Republican districts and put them into Democratic districts. then you must take those Democratic voters and move them from Democratic districts and put them in Republican districts.

52:33And if you do that poorly, then you put a bunch of seats at risk. I don't know if this will be a dummy mander, but the seats that the way DeSantis did this is he did not shore up the two most vulnerable Republicans in the in Southern Florida. And the four new safe seats are probably not even going to be ranked as safe by the Cook political report. They're probably lean Republican at best, or maybe likely Republican, but they're going to end up being about seats that Trump won plus nine in 2024. And that's within the realm of what is possible for Democrats. The other thing here that I think is just worth noting is we're using the 2024 results in Florida as the baseline for how safe these seats are.

53:24Trump won Florida by like 13 points. And but that was because which is a huge margin, a gigantic margin of what was like the prototypical swing state for many, many races is Trump won because he won Latinos by 13 points in 2024. To give you a sense of how nuts that is, he only he lost them by five in 2020. and he lost them by 27 in 2016. So there's a 40-point swing over the last eight years among Latinos in Florida. And there's a mountain of evidence, both in polling and in election results in Florida and elsewhere, that 2024 was an outlier in terms of Latino support. So if you really do, and the Latino vote in Florida is incredibly complicated because it's very diverse.

54:14so it's not you can't just look at numbers in other parts of the country and transpose them to florida but there is there is risk here that if latinos really are swinging back to democrats if not to 2016 levels but close to that then some of these seats republicans are counting on may turn out to be democratic so there's there's some risk here for meatball

54:35Dan Pfeiffer:me meatball and and and also mike johnson another kind of meatball another a different a a slimmer a more petite meatball. A bespectacle meatball. I'm not even going to give him slimmer. All right. As we know, as we know, Dan, Rotten to Santas is a petite man. But anyway. Yes, he's short, but he will use some lifts in his boots to see him a little, to improve his stature. All right. Speaking of elections, on Thursday morning, Maine Governor Janet Mills surprised many by suspending her Senate campaign citing a lack of financial resources that paves the way for Graham Plattner, who's been consistently around 30 points ahead of Mills in the polls to become the presumptive Democratic nominee for the Senate seat where he'll face Susan Collins.

55:16Alex, you and I have talked about the main race once or twice on some podcasts over the last few months. What do you make of Mills' decision to drop out before any votes were cast?

55:24Dan Pfeiffer:I mean, I just think, what are the fucking chances that you and I would be recording Pod Save America together the day that Janet Mills dropped out? It's like someone has it in for me. Mea culpa, mea culpa. I just want to say, you know, I've been talking about Janet Mills, not as the great defender of Janet Mills. I've just been asking some questions and not in the vein of Tucker Carlson about the way we talk about women with experience who are older and just, you know, whether in fact Graham Plattner, who is an incredibly dynamic political figure who has run a really interesting, I would say, innovative campaign, but whether that's going to pass muster with the crazy Mainers who are going to decide whether Susan Collins is going back to the Senate.

56:09Dan Pfeiffer:Right. So I'm just asking questions now. It is unquestionable that like Democratic primary voters wanted Graham Plattner to be the nominee. And I think, you know, he clearly earned it. The fact that Janet Mills came into the race the way she did. And I know you have lots of thoughts on this with DSEC backing and Chuck Schumer, you know, tells you and you wrote a message box about this. I don't want to I don't want to encroach on your in late. Feel free to quote from it if you'd like to. Well, I didn't think it was – I ran out of cut-paste room on my documents. Yes, fair enough. You know, it says a lot about the state of play inside the party and what – you know, the liabilities attached to institutionalists and the desire for new blood and a new DNA.

56:56Dan Pfeiffer:And I get that. You know, I am a worrier. And I do worry – I mean, Susan Collins. is been thus far And she is our iron lady, right? Isn't that what they called Thatcher? And, you know, she is a special place in my heart for her vote, putting Brett Kavanaugh over the top as she claimed there would nothing bad would happen to Roe v. Wade. She's betrayed her label as a moderate and independent countless times when it really mattered. And, you know, I don't think she deserves those labels at all. So I would love to see someone else replace Susan Collins. I do worry, you know, Graham Plattner has a lot that there are a lot of dynamics.

57:43Dan Pfeiffer:There's a lot of weather that converges over that candidacy. But at the same time, he's doing things, I think, for the party, especially as a veteran talking about the Iran war in a really important and compelling and foundational way. He's established a dialogue that I think is missing from a lot of parts of party leadership or you don't hear from party leadership. So I'm hopeful that he can inject some real life into not just the party, but the political conversation if he does get elected. So that is me waving the white flag, saying I was wrong in thinking that Janet Mills would gain more traction or had like some secret support somewhere in the state, I think.

58:22Dan Pfeiffer:And let's see what you do. Let me come to your defense here, because the way we've had this, we had this debate on Ponce of America a long time ago. We had this debate a couple of times on political experts react. And it's been I think it's overly simplified as. Alex is pro Janet Mills and Dan is pro Grant Plattner. You at no point in this did you argue that Janet Mills was going to win the primary. Like that was the conversation I've had has been about Grant Plattner's electability. and which I think is remains an open question. We don't know if he's electable till he actually wins. And there's obviously a dump trucks worth of opposition research based on the tattoo on his online posts.

59:05And we we do not know yet how that's going to play. As you point out, I think there there are some takeaways from this. Like it is it's not surprising that Janet Mills dropped out because she had clearly was losing by a lot and was out of money. Right. She had stopped. running TV ads. They'd even stop running the Facebook ads you run to raise money. So, like, you are really out of money when that happens. But it is, like, if you take a step back, like, the idea that the two-term incumbent governor of the state endorsed by the DSCC and endorsed by Chuck Schumer has to drop out a month before the election is sort of a, like, that seems, that's shocking, right?

59:42Sign of the times. But you're right, it is a sign of the times. It is like Janet Mills is 78 years old. She will be 85 at the end of her first term. She said she was only going to serve one term. Now, Janet Mills is not Joe Biden. I interviewed Janet Mills. She seemed nothing like Joe Biden, certainly the Joe Biden on that debate stage. But she was paying a price for Joe Biden. Right. Right. Just a in a Democratic establishment, a 78 year old establishment politician endorsed by the same establishment politicians who told everyone that Joe Biden was good to go. It's like that's too much of a burden for someone to overcome in a post Trump and a Trump Biden era.

1:00:25Right. Just you cannot do that. And Plattner is a good candidate. Right. People want change. He represented change. She represented the status quo. The Schumer endorsement was a big problem for her. Like, and it just, he endorsed her and then was immediately asked questions about, would you support Schumer for leader? And she didn't answer the question. She said, you know, I haven't decided yet. Well, no one buys that because Schumer endorsed her and recruited her into the race. So like, even if she really felt that way, that was just like hard for people to believe, especially when Plattner was saying, I will not vote for Schumer.

1:00:58And so like, this is where we are. Like, you know, we need, now we need Grant Plattner to win. Susan Collins, there was no path to the majority without this, without Maine. Like, we absolutely have to win Maine. In 2020, Susan Collins outperformed Donald Trump by 18 points. She won by nine points. And Biden won by nine points, which is like just that level of crossover voting in the 2020s is unheard of. And so she's a very tough candidate. We need him to win. and now hopefully everyone can unite around Platner and we can go make this happen because we have to.

1:01:35Dan Pfeiffer:It's non-negotiable, as they say. Yes, it is. Okay. And now we have nothing left to talk about. Yeah, this is the last time you and I will podcast together. Unless Graham Platner loses, then you can... And then Graham... Then I will have to be on your podcast every day for a month. I hope that does not come to pass. Yes, I mean, I would love to be on your podcast every day for a month. That would be an enjoyable use of my time. You are invited every day for a month, no matter what happens. But that's not the circumstances in which I would like to do it. Okay. One last thing before Tommy's conversation with Zach Walls.

1:02:05In the latest sign of the coming apocalypse, the Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday that Amazon Studios executives have been discussing a reboot of The Apprentice with none other than Donald Trump Jr. as the new host. What the hell is going on here? Alex, do you think Americans are really yearning for more Apprentice on their TV? or is it possible that Jeff Bezos and the folks at Amazon may have an ulterior motive here?

1:02:30Dan Pfeiffer:Oh, why would you think that? Just because they spent$3 trillion on a Milani trip documentary that made them like five cents. First of all, we should just note that it is not an active production. For all of you listeners on the West Coast, you know what that means, but everybody else in the country, like it's unclear if this is really gonna happen. However - They're just discussing it. They're discussing it. They're talking about it. It's like literally the least surprising thing ever. And, you know, I know we started this conversation talking about the way in which corporate America may be feeling a little bit, you know, maybe itchy to stop being such stooges, such butlers for Trump.

1:03:08Well, I guess that memo didn't get to Jeff Bezos because clearly Amazon's just relentless, shameless currying of favor with the Trump administration has not come to a conclusion.

1:03:20Dan Pfeiffer:The idea that we would reboot The Apprentice with another Trump in the lead seat in the captain's chair is like nauseating to me. And yet, if Amazon doesn't bite, I would assume someone else would, because there is some certain percentage of the country. You have a built-in audience for it. And I'm sure, you know, the powers that be would love to, you know, the grooming ground for Republican presidential candidates isn't Senate's, isn't the governor's seat. It's being a reality TV star. So yeah, if Don Jr. is going to have a future in politics in this country, he better get into an Apprentice reboot and stat.

1:03:54Someone should tell Jeff Bezos that the Supreme Court has gutted our campaign finance laws so much that we basically exist in an environment of legalized bribery. So he does not have to, to use your term, but clown himself to bribe Donald Trump. He does not have to buy bad documentaries. He does not have to remake terrible shows. He can basically just write Donald Trump a check. He can write it to Trump's library. He can write it to the ballroom. He can write it to a super PAC. He can buy a bunch of crypto coins. Like it's not necessary to embarrass himself to get the result what he wants, which is he wants Trump's Pentagon to give Blue Origin, his space company, some contracts so they can compete with SpaceX.

1:04:35and he is doing everything in his power to make that happen. But he is not savvy enough to realize that he is embarrassing himself and making his political position harder in the medium term in the long run by doing this in such an ass clown like fashion. Yeah,

1:04:52Dan Pfeiffer:Switzerland got like a reduced tariff rate just for giving him a gold bar. Like it's cheap. You don't even have to try this hard. Someone tell Bezos. All right. When we come back, Tommy's conversation with Zach Walls.

1:05:12Alex Wagner:Pod Save America is brought to you by Blinds.com. There's a version of your home you haven't lived in yet, where the light behaves, where the rooms feel finished, where you sleep until you decide to wake up. And who's that bringing you a delicious breakfast in bed? A beautiful woman or man? That's a, what a life. It could be yours. With Blinds.com, they've spent 30 years making it easy to find the perfect fit. with over 25 million windows covered and 50 ,000 five-star reviews, you feel confident you're in good hands. Whether you want to go full DIY, bring in licensed and vetted pros to handle the measure and install, or land somewhere in between, you'll always be in control.

1:05:46Alex Wagner:They make it simple to choose the level of support that works best for you with flexibility every step of the way. Need help picking the right style? Book a free consultation with one of Blinds.com's award-winning design experts. No pushy salespeople, no awkward in-home visits, just advice on your schedule. You'll even ship samples to your door fast and free. Choose from a huge variety of styles at prices that fit any budget. It's backed by Blinds.com's 100 % satisfaction guarantee because at Blinds.com, the only thing they treat better than Windows is you. Love Blinds.com. We got some Blinds.com in our office, right, Peter?

1:06:13Alex Wagner:Ugh, changed the whole vibe in there. It was getting hot in the afternoons. There was sun on our computer screens. Now we can really read the news. Right now, Blinds.com is giving our listeners an exclusive$50 off. When you spend$500 or more, just use code CROOKET at checkout. Limited time offer. Rules and restrictions apply. See Blinds.com for details.

1:06:35Alex Wagner:My guest today is a Democrat serving in the Iowa State Senate. He is now running for the Democratic nomination to represent Iowa in the United States Senate. Bit of a downgrade going from Des Moines to D.C. But Zach Walls, great to meet you. Tommy, it's good to be here. You're also running for Senate with a two-year-old. So you're trying to do like the red panda, spin as many places as you can at once. Yeah, you know, look, we can definitely talk more about that later. I do not necessarily recommend it, you know, but thankfully I've got an incredible wife, two very supportive grandparents who are a 15-minute drive away from my house, a sister who helps out a lot.

1:07:08Actually, they're watching him literally right now. And this campaign would not be possible without their support. So if you're listening, I love you.

1:07:13Alex Wagner:God bless grandparents, truly. And also, when you go on the road, like, you know, you're in LA right now, you don't have the Nandadon. So that's kind of nice. Yeah, I mean, look, we've got 33 days to go at this moment. So it's kind of hard to get any restful sleep at all. But thankfully, Eli is mostly sleeping through the night. He did learn how to climb out of his crib recently, which was, and my poor wife was alone. This is terrifying. Yeah. And like we were on the road and she's texting me photos of how he's like pulled things off the shelves in the room. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so sorry that I'm not there.

1:07:46Alex Wagner:My buddy would tell me like when his kids learned to crawl out of the crib, he would just wake up in the dead of night with a two-year-old like three inches from his face. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing more terrifying. Anyway, great to finally spend some time with you in person. Listeners might have heard of you because you gave this speech back in 2011. You were a 19-year-old college student. It went super viral at the time. You were defending the right for all Iowans to marry. But that was a while ago. Can you tell listeners about yourself, your story, and the moment that led to that speech and what you've been doing since?

1:08:19Yeah. Well, you know, that speech changed my life. It's actually how I met my wife, Chloe. She was living in New York at the time writing for a feminist blog called Feministing, which kind of is a big deal, third wave. feminist blog at the time. And she was on blog duty the week that video went viral. And she wrote up the video and the headline she put on it was, marry me, Zach Walls. No way. 100 % true story. And, you know, I thought this was very cute. And I thought she was very cute. So I sent her an email. I was like, you know, I won't marry you, but I'd be happy to do an interview. And anyway, we've been together for about a decade.

1:08:50We've got a two-year-old and, you know, it definitely changed my life. You know, led me into advocacy for families like mine all over the state, ultimately across the country, and into politics when I ran for the state Senate in 2018. I was only 27 at that point. So I was the youngest member of the Iowa Senate when I was first elected. Seven years later, I am still the youngest member of the Iowa State Senate at 34. And when we defeat Ashley Hinson in November, I will be the youngest member of the U.S. Senate. We'll dethrone John Ossoff, which I'm looking forward to. That as well.

1:09:20Alex Wagner:Yeah, actually talking to someone who's running for Senate with a two-year-old is a rare thing. Usually it's a two-year-old grandkid. So again, that speech though, you were talking about was it was like a horribly bigoted uh iowa law that they were trying to jam through so so iowa was the third state in the country to recognize same-sex marriage and i grew up with my two moms jackie and terry um my mom terry's a fifth generation iowa farm girl from clayton county uh my mom jackie uh is nurse from central wisconsin and it was incredible watching them to have the chance to get married in 2009 after that supreme court ruling two years later in 2011 i was a sophomore at the University of Iowa.

1:09:58I was studying civil and environmental engineering, going to go build bridges and what have you. But then when Republicans were pushing forward this proposal to reverse that Supreme Court decision by amending our constitution, I knew that I had to speak up. And the reason that was the case, and I haven't talked about this in the speech, but one of my very first homework assignments, I was in the eighth grade, this is in 2004, was to watch the Republican National Convention, those speeches, and then talk about it in class the next day. And I will never forget what it was like watching some of the most powerful people in our country stand in front of the nation talking about the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, the war on terror, and then warn our country about the enemy from within and this radical Supreme Court decision from Massachusetts and the threat of gay marriage to our families, to our children, and realizing they're talking about my family.

1:10:59They are talking about children like me. And it was so scary. And when I went into class the next day, I knew that I should say something I wanted to, but when I got there, I was scared. I felt like there was a target on my back. And so I didn't. And I stayed quiet. it. And that feeling, that shame, frankly, of feeling like I should say something and didn't have the courage to do it, that stuck with me. It just seared in my memory. And so when I had the chance to give that testimony in 2011, I knew that I had to do it. When I had the chance to run for the state Senate in 2018 and to fight back against terrible things that Republicans are doing in our state, I felt like I had to do it.

1:11:44And when we, my wife and I were talking about this potential for this campaign last year. Running for the U.S. Senate with a two-year-old, you know, not easy. But it felt like it was something that we had to do because I know what it feels like to need someone who's willing to fight for you when you can't do that yourself. And there are so many people in our state, I think across our country right now, who feel not exactly the same, obviously, the way that I did. But I think everybody deserves someone who's willing to go to bat for them. And that's what this campaign is all about. Absolutely. So I lived in Iowa for

1:12:14Alex Wagner:year in 2007 um uh loved it like the were you in iowa city i was in des moines but i just was on the road all the time so i went to like 70 some 73 counties with obama right 71 and counting doing what you're doing right now yeah so amazing experience loved every second of it obviously it was colored by the fact that obama won the iowa cox's and that got us the nomination and the presidency but you know iowa made this massive swing from 2008 and 2012 when obama won it twice to 2016, where Trump won the state by like almost 10 points, massive swing. And you could see it, especially in all these kind of river counties in the East.

1:12:49Alex Wagner:What do you think happened? And how do Democrats get those voters back? So I get this question a lot, you know, Obama, Obama, Trump, Trump, Trump. And one of the things that I think a lot of folks can be hard to understand is that the message that Barack Obama was running on in 2008 and 2012 about challenging the status quo, bringing change to Washington, D.C., challenging the establishment, to us, that sounds very different from Make America Great Again, but to a lot of the voters that our party has lost, they sound very similar, right? People who are willing to challenge a broken status quo.

1:13:27And especially for a lot of folks in small town and rural America, they have been failed by leaders in both parties. And I would say in Iowa, going back to the farm crisis in the 80s, our state has had a reflexive skepticism of the establishment because of how much damage that did to our state and what the kind of consequences of that have been over the last 40, 50 years. And so you've seen Iowa support people like Bill Clinton in the 90s, Barack Obama in the 2000s, and now Donald Trump on that anti-establishment message. I also will tell you, So I live in Coralville, which is in Johnson County, a Democratic county.

1:14:02But my district when I was first running in 2018 included Cedar County to the east and Muscatine County south and east. And I spent a lot of time knocking on doors in Cedar and Muscatine counties. And I talked to a lot of Obama, Trump, Walls voters. And whenever I would talk with somebody like this, of course, you want to know what are the issues facing your community? And if they tell you that you're voting for you, like what's going on here? And what I would often hear from voters was something to the effect of, look, I don't agree with Donald Trump on every single issue, but I feel like he's fighting for me and for my family.

1:14:33And you're here, you're listening, you're understand what's happening here. So you got my support too. And I think, you know, that is something that I learned actually after that 2011 speech, I spent a lot of time traveling around the state, traveling around the country. And, you know, the marriage equality campaign was all about meeting people where they were, finding common ground, answering tough, sometimes wildly inappropriate questions from people, But bringing some grace and humility to that rather than I think the view that some folks have of Democrats is that we look down on people or we judge people if they disagree with us and condescension, whatever.

1:15:08But if we had taken that approach and marriage equality, if that kind of condescending, looking down on people, marriage equality would not have passed. And so having those lessons was why I was able to win in small town rural areas, represent those areas for four years in my first term, three and a half now here in my second term. And it has made me a much better legislator. It's made me a better candidate. And I think that is why we're going to win this election in November, because there's a really unique opportunity to win these voters back because of how bad the Trump policies have been for small town in rural America.

1:15:41But you have to have a positive vision. It can't just be about how bad things are. You've got to be looking forward to.

1:15:46Alex Wagner:Yeah. Let me ask you about one of those bad things. So Trump, you probably saw, started a war with Iran. It is going terribly wrong. It's increased the price of oil, increased the price of gas. it has increased fertilizer prices and availability all around the world. There could be a global hunger crisis if this thing doesn't end soon. What has the impact been on Iowa farmers and the Iowa economy? And then what role do you think the U.S. Senate should be playing in ending the war? Price of diesel is another part of oil and gasoline going up. Basically, every piece of Iowa farm equipment runs on diesel.

1:16:17So we're in the midst of planting season right now. I was looking my watch is April 29th. So all those machines that are out in the fields right now, those are all a lot more expensive to operate than they were three months ago. For fertilizer costs, the vast majority of Iowa farmers had already bought their fertilizer for the spring. So if these fertilizer prices stay elevated into the fall, that's when you're going to start to see some real issues. Now, that's not to say that every farmer had already bought their fertilizer, but the vast majority by 80 % had already. But again, depending on how this goes, how this is resolved, that's going to be a huge issue.

1:16:53And then of course, the human toll as well. Two of the first six fatalities were from Iowa. And look, we can't have another endless war in the Middle East. And for what it's worth, I don't hear support for the war from people. When we're out campaigning, we've done almost 300 events across over 70 counties now. And people don't like this idea that Trump is trying to say, well, we don't have money for healthcare, We don't have money for our schools, but we can get 50 billion more dollars to go bomb Iran. Right. That's crazy. Yeah. And when we talk about, you know, Washington, D.C. that has failed states like Iowa, people all over the country, it's exactly what we're talking about.

1:17:31Alex Wagner:Let me ask you about some some Washington stuff. So you criticize your opponent, Josh Turek, who we interviewed a couple of weeks back for getting support from Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. Can you describe what support he's getting to listeners? And, you know, you're sort of thinking on Schumer. Are you saying you wouldn't vote for him for a minority and majority leader? Do you have a horse if not Senator Schumer? Would you reject DSTC funding if you do win the primary? Describe this criticism. Let's take a step back and let's talk about the extension of what you were talking about with Obama and Trump.

1:18:03My view is this party needs new leadership. It's part of the reason why I'm running for the seat in the first place. And that was part of why when we launched the campaign back in June of last year, I said, this is before Josh got in the race. I would not support Senator Schumer to remain as the leader. There's two reasons for that for me. Number one, you look at his track record as leader. I don't think that it has meant the moment. I mean, we are facing in Donald Trump an existential threat to our country, to our democracy. I mean, this is a guy who just a few weeks ago was tweeting about nuking Iran, right?

1:18:37The things that they have done just this morning, I saw another Supreme Court ruling on the VRA. I'm sure we can get to that. Save America Act. I mean, they are January 6th. There's so many things that this administration is doing that are such a threat to us that you need more effective response from Senate Democrats. And Schumer's not provided that. Second, and I will never forget this, Chuck Schumer said on television, it is fine for our party to write off rural voters and blue-collar voters. because for every one of those votes we lose, we're going to make up two more in the suburbs. And that math might work in New York.

1:19:09It definitely does not work in Iowa. And frankly, that's not the Democratic Party that I want to belong to. Since the New Deal, this is the party that has fought for workers' rights and civil rights and women's rights. We are the party that fights for people who have lost their jobs to being offshored or now being replaced with artificial intelligence. We fight for people who need a champion no matter who you are or where you come from. That is a Democratic Party that I believe in, and that is the Democratic Party that we have to fight for. And to get that, we need new leaders. Representative Turek obviously gets in the race a couple months later.

1:19:43He's not taking the same position that I have. And so Senator Schumer has been supporting him. There's a super PAC that has been spending a significant amount of money bolstering Representative Turek in our primary. The DSCC has been promoting various events and opening doors for Josh. And look, they can do that, right? But what I will tell you is, if we want to win in November, and we want to win back those voters that our party has lost, who are frustrated with a rigged system that has done devastating damage to our state's economy, that has, through their campaign finance system, corrupted our politics, I think it is going to be a hell of a lot easier to win those voters back with a candidate who can look voters in the eye and tell them, I don't know Chuck Schumer a damn thing.

1:20:25I'm here to work for you. Not for Schumer, not for Trump, not for Elon Musk or the billionaires, the big corporations. We need a senator who's going to do what's right for Iowa. That's what I've done in the state Senate and that's what I'll do in the U.S. Senate. So look, I agree with a lot of your critique there

1:20:39Alex Wagner:of not meeting the moment, a lot of it. I'm just curious, like sort of how the, how would this manifest in a general election? Like, does it mean rejecting money from the DSCC? Does it mean rejecting like Democratic National Committees? Here's what I'll tell you. Look, there's, you know, obviously, if we win the nomination, the reality is, and there's been reporting on this, Democrats in D.C. still want to win this seat. But you win the seat and then you have the ability to help shape what the general election looks like on your terms rather than on Washington's terms. And, Tommy, I don't need to tell you, folks in Washington have not had a great track record in Iowa over the last 14 years, right?

1:21:20Right. And so from my perspective, I think that having a nominee who has been able to run against the establishment to say that actually we are going to talk with voters in a way that we believe reflects a way that actually wins on the ground. We've been investing in organizing very early. And I will also tell you the message that we've been running on, which is about the economy. It is about the corruption. It is about a new vision for the future of small town of rural Iowa. And hope we can get to some of that in a minute. That is resonating with a lot of people. When we turned in our nominating petitions, this is about a month and a half ago now, 15 % of our signers were registered independents and Republicans.

1:21:54We had signers from all 99 counties and like triple the number of signatures that you needed from folks to legally get on the ballot. I was also the first candidate in the race, Democrat or Republican, to get a grassroots contribution from Iowans in all 99 counties. Our 99th county was Wright County, which is up in North Iowa. 25 bucks from a guy named Gary. Gary gets us to magic number 99. So we're like, we're thrilled. Get Gary on the phone so I can say thank you and learn about why he's supporting the campaign. Gary tells me he's a retired small town lawyer. He's excited to see a new generation step up.

1:22:27He's president of his local school board, loves my passion for public education. He's a Vietnam veteran. And then Gary tells me that he's a registered Republican and he loves our anti-corruption message. And so now Gary and his wife, Susan, are some of our best volunteers. And in fact, because of Gary and Susan, we turned 174 signatures from Wright County as a part of getting onto the ballot. And we have been unable to determine the last time a Democratic candidate for Senate came anywhere close to that amount. And so we think it's an example of how our approach, our message, and the structure of our campaign is resonating.

1:22:57And so if we win the nomination and folks from Washington want to work with us rather than us working with them, if that makes sense, and the vision that we have for how we win this race, that's their decision, right?

1:23:08Alex Wagner:It sounds like you're saying you're like, if you win the nomination, the DSCC is going to spend and you're not going to stop them and you'll work with them. But you feel like you will have better negotiating terms. On our terms. Yeah. And again, I think to me, that illustrates the strength of this grassroots campaign. Right. The fact that we've been able to have, you know, we've outraised my opponent in the primary, despite him having every door open for him by the committee, you know, all those various things. We are working our tails off. Right. And Iowans respect hard work. And frankly, they respect people who are willing to say out loud the things that they know are true, which is that there are leaders in both parties who have failed states like Iowa.

1:23:43And we need change. And we have to have somebody who's willing to push for that change. And look, it may not work, but I will tell you, I think it is going to work. And I think that is exactly the message that we are going to ride straight into November. And I hope that we can talk about Ashley Hinson because I bet a lot of your listeners probably don't know a lot about her, but she is one of the worst.

1:24:01Alex Wagner:So I do want to ask about her, but on the reform stuff. So voters are furious at Washington. They're mad at the political system. They're mad at Congress. I think Gallup had a poll out the other day that found the congressional approval rating is 10%. Yeah. They're like, you know, 60 points underwater. So what's your plan to kind of reform the Senate, fix the image of it being broken? Like, are we getting rid of the filibuster? Are we banning PAC and lobbyist money? Are we talking term limits? Like, tell us your plan. Did you read my campaign website? Because that's literally so really early in the campaign, anti-corruption, this reform really emerged as something that we heard from Iowans on the trail.

1:24:40And so we've got literally so we launched our Iowans over insiders tour. This was about two and a half weeks ago now. And we've started with our anti-corruption plan. That includes filibuster reform, which is not a position that my opponent has taken in this primary. It includes overturning Citizens United, which I've made a promise. I will be a day one co-sponsor of an amendment to the U.S. Constitution to do that. I've made a promise. I'm only going to serve two terms in the U.S. Senate if elected. I've become a big believer in term limits. I've seen for a stand in the state legislature what happens when good people stay for too long.

1:25:13And it is so much worse when bad people stay for too long. And we can all see that playing out in the U.S. Senate. The third thing that we talk about is banning members of Congress. And I've made a promise to follow this by examples as well. No owning, trading stocks, cryptocurrency, prediction markets. People deserve to have a government that they trust is actually working for them, not for their own bank accounts. And the other thing, too, I think that is so important for us as a party, you know, I mean, I go back to this point since the New Deal, right? The things that we fought for. Democrats believe that government can do really good things to make people's lives better.

1:25:47Social Security, Medicare, infrastructure, public education. But if people don't trust the government, then it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to do those things. And so I think restoring that trust is incredibly important. And getting that money out of our politics is incredibly important for the economy as well. Because people understand, like, can, you know, every Iowa voter explain the difference between a 527 or a C4? Like, no, of course not. But do people understand that there is a direct connection between how rigged the economy is and how corrupted our politics have become by these super PACs and billionaires and dark money?

1:26:27Like, yeah, absolutely. Everybody gets that. You know, Donald Trump was not wrong when he said that we need to drain the swamp. The problem is that he's not draining the swamp at all. If anything, he's like floating in it. Just building a new swamp. Totally. Totally.

1:26:38Alex Wagner:Like Pete Hegseth in there and a bunch of other douchebags. Well, let me ask you like some of your what your critics would say. Like supporters, your opponent would point out that you ran a pack in a previous job, the next gen 50 pack. They would say, like, did you find religion on this issue because money was getting spent against you? Like, how did you come to this and how do you explain that previous job? Yeah. I mean, look, so first of all, there was no federal independent expenditure of that organization at all. Right. So it's a complete apples and oranges situation. But I would tell you, I think like a lot of young voters of our generation, I'm going to say our generation here.

1:27:09I think that concern about money in politics has been something that we've seen for a long time. And part of that, I think, is growing up in the Post Citizens United era, going back to 2010. I mean, it's funny. I still remember watching those episodes of the Colbert Report where Stephen is like explaining, you know, his dark money group and the Stephen Colbert pack and everything. And just thinking about how absurd that was. And I was a college student then. And now, like actually being in elected office, you know, you can see it so much so. But I will tell you, tell me one story about the influence of money in politics.

1:27:44My very first years in 2019, these large out-of-state investment companies started coming to Iowa, buying mobile home communities and trailer parks and proposing outrageous increases to the monthly lot rent. 50%, 60%, 70%. And like, I would be very unhappy if my mortgage went up 70%. And these folks have a lot less flexibility in their budgets than I do. And this one company from Utah bought 15 communities across the state, three of them in my Senate district, two in Johnson County, and then one in Cedar County, the more rural part of my district. And as their state senator, I took it upon myself to go knock doors in my communities to hear from my constituents, my people about what was going on.

1:28:27And the stories I heard were heartbreaking. I met a woman named Candy. Candy was a widow, and her late husband had saved up, bought her this beautiful double wide trailer and she had a place to call her home and she was worried about her own home she was terrified about what would happen to her neighbors and i you know i was so angry about what i was hearing that i was able to take these stories and i went to my republican colleagues and even though i was a freshman and even though you know we obviously didn't agree on every issue that experience that i had as an advocate for marriage equality about finding that common ground and being able to bring people together.

1:29:01We brought together a bipartisan group. We hammered out a bill that we could all support. And as a freshman, I got that bill with the help of people like Candy and her neighbors who came to the state house to fight for that bill. We got it through the Senate 48 to zero. Everyone assumed this was a done deal. And then two days later, I get a text message asking me to come over to the house side for a closed door meeting about my bill. And I remember it like it was yesterday, walking in. First person I see is the lobbyist representing these big companies. And the second person I see is a state representative who's holding my bill, shaking her head.

1:29:36That state representative is now a member of Congress. And she was my Republican opponent in November, Ashley Hinson. And I was in the room and I watched as Ashley Hinson killed my bipartisan bill as a favor to that lobbyist. And after this was over, I looked up how much money this lobbyist had bundled for her re-election campaign? You want to guess how much it was? 50 grand. $1 ,500. Cheap date. And you will never guess though, who was some of her biggest supporters in her campaign for the US House, or who did a fundraising event for her in the Senate campaign just a few months ago. So when we talk about this connection between the rigged economy and the corruption of our politics, I saw that firsthand as a freshman legislator.

1:30:22And look, Look, I will tell you this. I was excited to run against Joni Ernst. But when I found out I was going to be running against Ashley Hinson, I jumped out of bed the next morning. Because this campaign is about a lot of things. It's about this rigged economy that is benefiting the big investment companies at the expense of people like Candy. It is about the corruption of money in our politics. It is about that new vision that we have for the future of small town of rural Iowa. But one of those things is definitely the opportunity to end the political career of the woman who killed my bipartisan bill for$1 ,500.

1:30:54Take a little spite. I like spite. I'm

1:30:55Alex Wagner:also very grateful that you said, uh, it's our generation when you're 34 and I'm not. Don't think about it too hard. No, it's honestly, it's the nicest thing I've ever said to me today. Um, can I just one last time? Tell me more about Ashley though. So she, what do voters need to know about her? Because she's not a well-known political. Totally. Well, you know, it's, it's funny. Um, when Ashley first got in the race, this is back in September. So So we get in June. It actually is funny. We were in the planning process for the campaign, obviously. And then on like June 3rd or something, Joni Ernst says, well, we all are going to die in response to a question about Medicaid cuts in a town hall.

1:31:33Yeah, that was not a good answer. It was not a good answer. And it was not a popular position to take on health care. And so we had already been planning to announce the campaign that happened a few days later. In August, poll comes out for the general election showing me leading Joni Ernst by two points in a head-to-head matchup. you know 10 days later she's out of the race Ashley Hinson's getting in I don't think we can take all the credit for Joni withdrawing from the race but we'll take a little bit of the credit take it and when Ashley first got in you know to exactly your question a lot of folks don't know who's Ashley Hinson and so I would kind of tell people look she's kind of like the Marjorie Taylor Green of the Midwest the problem is I can't use that comparison anymore because Marjorie good now I know she seems reasonable compared to Hinson I mean Hinson look she has all the same terrible votes that Joni Ernst does for the Republican budget, the big billionaire tax cut, cutting $800 billion from Medicaid, defunding Obamacare, all of that stuff.

1:32:25But in addition to all of that, she's co-sponsored a total abortion ban in the U.S. House. She has voted not once but twice against capping the cost of insulin. She's voted against Medicare being able to negotiate over prescription drugs. She's actually voted to cut Social Security, which not a lot of people know yet, but they certainly will in November. Seems like a bad vote. Very bad vote. She is someone who's accepted millions of dollars from the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. And so from my perspective, I think that there is no one who I would rather have the opportunity to run against in this election.

1:32:55And I'll tell you, Tommy, when we defeat Ashley in November, I'm going to personally make sure that Candy and a couple of her neighbors come out to Washington, D.C. for the swearing in. There you go.

1:33:04Alex Wagner:Not a fan, I guess, of Ashley. And I feel I feel I feel convinced here. But so as you know, we have a primary coming up. Vote Vets were the organization that you talked about earlier that's endorsed your opponent and put a bunch of ad dollars on TV in support of him. They released a poll. It has Josh up 20 points. I wonder if you think, if you agree with those numbers and why you think you are better positioned to win this race. Absolutely. So look, I mean, it's an internal poll, very little detail provided about it. But look, they've spent five and a half million dollars. And when we talk about how super PACs have this disproportionate impact on our politics and primaries like this one, And of course, this is not our only race in the country where super PACs are spending millions and millions of dollars.

1:33:46This is an example of, I think, something that a lot of Democratic primary voters are really frustrated with because it feels like the super PACs are drowning out the voices of individual voters. You've got, like you said, over$5 million spent so far. And that is a significant amount of money. What I will tell you is that we've been traveling across the state. Folks are really resonating with our anti-establishment message. And it's not frankly just Gary and other Republicans or independents. A lot of Democratic primary voters are not happy with what is happening in Washington right now. They are not satisfied with the leadership of Chuck Schumer, and they are ready for real change.

1:34:19And so when we talk about how we need to make that change a reality, that is something that is resonating across the political spectrum. And when you see, to your point, candidates say, well, I'm opposed to dark money, I'm opposed to super PACs, and they're benefiting from millions of dollars of outside spending, I think voters aren't happy about that either. And so what I would tell you is we're on to tomorrow and we're going to continue during the final stretch here. We've been on the last two and a half weeks, our Iowans over insiders tour. We started with a very comprehensive anti-corruption plan that actually Senator Elizabeth Warren personally texted me to say that she really liked it, which I think about the highest honor you could give for an anti-corruption plan.

1:35:02We had our plan on the economic agenda. And one of the things I would just point out on that, Tommy, is that when we talk about things like a billionaire wealth tax, when we talk about breaking up the corporate monopolies that have a stranglehold on agribusiness in Iowa, so like four companies control the global grain market, four companies control the fertilizer market. One of those companies, by the way, is Koch Industries. I think probably the only people who hate the Koch brothers more than Pod Save America listeners are Iowa farmers. That is something that resonates with people. You know, I think some people in DC think of that as like a progressive or lefty coded thing.

1:35:34that is not the case at all. I mean, you go talk to an average swing voter in the state of Iowa, and you ask them about those two things, they're going to give you a thumbs up 100%. And so that is how we're going to win is because we have a message that is not being filtered through super PACs. It's not coming from Washington. It's not coming from pollsters. It is coming from people across our state. And that's how you're going to win.

1:35:55Alex Wagner:What do you say that people were like, look, Iowa city is, you know, the most liberal part of the state, you haven't had to run against a Republican, maybe you're not ready for like what that you know that you've heard this response. What do you say? Yeah, well, look, I mean, if you think that I haven't defeated Republicans, I would encourage you to ask Bob Vander Plaats or any of the other folks who are trying to change Iowa's marriage equality law back in 2011. And what I would tell you is that the, you know, the idea that this election is going to be decided based on where a candidate is from is absolutely absurd.

1:36:22I mean, same people who said that Barack Obama couldn't win because he was from Chicago, Illinois, right? And that was wrong, right? People don't care about where you're from, they care about why you're there, they care about what your vision for the future is, and if you have a concrete idea about how to make it a reality. We've got all of those things. Again, I will also tell you, I'm the only candidate running on the Democratic primary who has represented small town and rural Iowa. Cedar and Muscatine County, Obama, Trump, Walls counties. And for years, I took really seriously the responsibility of showing up to those listening posts and those legislative forums.

1:36:56I was often the only elected Democrat on the panel answering questions from the audience, me and like five Republicans, you know, not quite Jubilee style, you know, or whatever, but like pretty close. And that experience, it made me a better legislator. It's made me a better candidate for this office. And that's the exact same approach that we'll take as a U.S. Senator. I believe 100 % in the importance of showing up, doing town halls. Chuck Grassley famously does the 99 County tour every year. We'll do that in the U.S. Senate. And we'll make sure that we have a candidate in this race and then a senator who actually is listening to the people and fighting to go to work for them.

1:37:34Will you emulate Grassley's Twitter style of just having like... My staff doesn't let me tweet anymore. Nonsensical. Smart.

1:37:40Alex Wagner:So, which is probably for the best. Last question for you. Do you have a political hero or mentor or something you want to emulate in Washington if you win this? Yeah, Tom Harkin, for sure. You know, look, my mom Terry was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis when I was seven years old. It's a devastating disease. And I watched as I was growing up her physical decline into a wheelchair. And, you know, having gay parents, even in Johnson County in the 90s and early 2000s, was not easy. But having a parent in a wheelchair was also really tough. And without the Americans with Disabilities Act, and this is a point where Representative Kirk and I, I think both are incredibly grateful to Senator Harkin for his leadership on that.

1:38:21You know, that made a huge difference for my family. You know, that time was also when I learned the importance of what a labor union can do for a family. My mom, Jackie, is a SEIU nurse at the University of Iowa Hospital. She was laid off during the Great Recession. And that contract that got negotiated on her behalf made a huge difference for our family. It had a really tough time. and you know i think about senator harkin i think about his work with americans disabilities act i think about him being a relentless champion for labor unions i've been fortunate enough to win the endorsement of 25 different labor unions and organizations across our state in this race in fact i was um the iron workers uh local in des moines uh invited me to become a member so i'm now a duce pain iron worker okay uh local 67 so if this politics thing doesn't work out i got a future in the skilled trades.

1:39:08Yeah, yeah. And yeah. What are you going to make me? Well, I mean, data centers are the big thing right now. And that's a whole separate can of words. But the thing right now that I would tell you is that, you know, fighting for a state where no matter who you are, you know, how you're, what your family is like, whether you have an ability or disability, what have you, that is really important. Fighting for the ability of people to come together to negotiate good jobs, fair wages, great benefits in an economy that works for us. Those two things to me, that's what Senator Harkin represents. And those are things that are really important to me as well.

1:39:41Alex Wagner:Well, Zach, best of luck in your campaign. Great to spend some time with you and appreciate it. I really appreciate it, Tommy. I enjoy the conversation today. And if anyone listening wants to learn more, just join us at our website, ZachWalls.com. We'd love to have you on board.

1:39:56That's our show for today. Thanks, Alex, for co-hosting. Thanks to Zach Walls for coming on. Love it. We'll be back in your feed on Sunday with a conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders.

1:40:06Alex Wagner:If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics.

1:40:42Alex Wagner:Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

1:41:03Hold this one, hold this one.