Fighting with Fox News feat. Jessica Tarlov

22:08Jessica Tarlov:And you know this from working in this world. Why is this man not busier? Yeah, yeah. You know, there are better things to do. I understand that I occupy space on his favorite show and we are thankful for the ratings. Are you the favorite? Is the five? Yeah. Yeah. Number one show for four and a half years. No, I just mean that. Oh, of his. Of his personal. Has he announced this? Does he rank you? Like, does he put out a list like Obama's playlist? He hasn't done that of the great Americans and then that horrible liberal shrew that sits there. No, I think that it is, it's a good time slot for him, but it has a lot of his favorites on one program.

22:51Jessica Tarlov:So you get to see like Jesse Waters and Greg together. And Janine Pirro used to be on the show before she became the U.S. attorney for DC. And I think he's gone after Dana before, you know, Dana was Bush's press secretary. So obviously that feels like some kind of betrayal to him. But yeah, I think it's his favorite. He tweets like it's his favorite. I don't know. There are great Americans on other programs too. Maybe Hannity's like a best friend, but it's a favorite. And it's fun to be criticized by him on social media, both for what you said and how you look doing it. That's an appropriate, nice, normal thing for the president.

23:24Totally.

23:24Jessica Tarlov:If I had a son, I would definitely teach him that when you grow up, you should write about how a woman looks on television and sounds and then call her a big dummy. Yeah. We've all gotten so used to it, but it's horrible when you really say it like that. Well, you also watch how other people who don't live here and haven't grown accustomed to it react to it. Or you see like Mark Carney giving a speech. Right. And you think, why can't we have nice things? I know that feeling too. I mean, when he does that, like, I assume that Jesse and Greg and all these people can like call Trump. Are they ever like, hey man, lay off my friend?

24:04You're kind of just being a dick?

24:05Jessica Tarlov:When he called in and said that the show was better without me, I was off that day. Jesse pushed back and was like, we love her. But everyone just got quiet, which is actually the best way to handle him because you don't want to get into a big back and forth. And I've never responded to any of it online. It's just not worth it. And it invites such vitriol. It invites threats. We have kids around the same age. It's a scary world out there. But the reason that I wanted to write about it for the book was because it has pushed me to really think about how to process criticism and what lessons you can take from it.

24:48Jessica Tarlov:And I wanted the book to be like that, like actually useful for people. And so by the president coming after me and looking at the content of the criticism, I actually got to a place where I genuinely feel like when people pick on you because of style that you've just done really well on substance. And that feels good. The inner monologue feels good. It's still sad and crazy. See, if Trump attacked my appearance, I think it would break me. I'd love if he thought my ideas were stupid. But if he was like that dumb blonde has a five head and I hate him, I would crumble. One thing that sort of frustrates me about the Trump era is there's all these famous people, like comedians and athletes and others, like who kind of intellectually know that what he is doing is wrong.

25:30Jessica Tarlov:Right. They had a personal interaction with him. Yes. At the club, golfing, whatever. And just sort of like slot him into nice to me. Well, he's nice to me. Like I find him great. And it's like, on some level, that's very human. On another, it's like politics 101. Every politician ingratiates him or herself with people. And there's value in that. but I think like the delta between Trump's charm and harm is greater than maybe any president in history, right? So it's harder here. And so I wonder if you ever struggle with that same kind of feeling at Fox, because there's all these people who are wonderful colleagues, kind to you, nice to your kids.

26:06And then you watch them later at night and it's like this invective that you know is damaging or like exacerbating all the tensions in our politics that you hate.

26:17Jessica Tarlov:It's definitely frustrating. And we've had those conversations on air and off air. Greg and I have had a number of back and forths where he said, I just don't understand why you care so much that I like him. And I always put it in terms of this is not like your annoying friend that you're bringing to my birthday party, right? This is someone who is deciding the trajectory of our country for 330 million Americans. There are people who are dead now because of policy decisions that he has made. They're here and abroad, you know, when they minimize USAID funding and things like that. You just say, okay, like, I get it.

26:55Jessica Tarlov:It doesn't hit as close to home view, but if there are African kids that are dead now, that still counts as a negative knockout. Yeah, or a school full of Iranian girls that we bombed. Yeah. Because we also had, like, Claude had a bad day for whichever. Was it Claude? It was one of their, it was some sort of AI enabled targeting something that the Pentagon uses. So I don't want to, don't sue me. Claude, I use Claude. I mean, someone, some program messed up and went on old coordinates. They fucked up. And 140 girls are dead and we never talk about it. And if a reporter asks about it in the press briefing, it's...

27:30Trump pretends they're still reviewing it or something.

27:32Jessica Tarlov:No, just dismisses it. Like a how dare you. Yeah. I mean, Pete Hegg said this definitely not reviewing it. So that is frustrating for me, but it has led me to understand something, which I think we all intellectually know about how seriously conservatives take politics versus liberals. We know that there's a big delta between that, that it feels like much more of our identity than it does to them. I'm not talking about the deep MAGA face. No, I'm not talking about someone who has like Trump tattooed on their face. I'm talking about the average Republican who likes Trump fine, but in 2016, maybe they liked someone else that come around or even liked him from the start.

28:16Jessica Tarlov:But the other things that are going on in their lives matter more. And that has been a big lesson for me to learn intellectually, but also to feel it. And I see that in the commercial breaks. You know, we could be having a really tense debate about something that matters a lot. You know, Dobbs' decision, war, peace, you know, big scandal, whatever it is. And it does not carry over for them. So it has become, I feel, really up to me to decide what that dynamic is going to look like. And I want those friendships, not only because I want to go to work and I want to work in a good environment, but because I also know that if you are going to be able to reach people and connect with them, you have to do it to a large degree on their terms.

29:08Jessica Tarlov:You have to find a way to make, I call it in the book, the truth safe to hear. And so I've really reframed how I think about my job as the liberal voice on those days. And Harold Ford Jr. does it half the week as well. So that is part of how my mental health is sort of intact. Swap in. Bring the lefty and the righty. Good luck to you. But if you think about your advocacy or the kinds of arguments that you're making as being focused actually on opening minds versus changing them, you can be a lot more successful. And I think that was something Obama understood too. How you pick up some of these states that we had no business winning, which maybe we'll win again this time around because Rob Sand knows that that's the case as well.

29:58Jessica Tarlov:Right? Yeah, no, there's definitely, I think people running for office have a whole other level of grace or need to be politically successful.

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33:10you write in the book about Judge Jeanine Pirro being a very kind and supportive colleague for example I'm just wondering like what it's like then to watch her get this U.S. attorney job and then go into this new role where she is using the power she was given by the Trump administration to conduct this vindictive prosecution against David Hearn the Olympian who was accused of

33:31Jessica Tarlov:at least then she undid it at least she undid it but it's like I was just wondering if like that's been hard for you because it's just like Like, there's all these— I mean, we talked about Pete Hegseth. I don't know if you knew him. He was a weekend guy, so you probably didn't get a shine. No, I didn't. I knew Pete. Yeah. I'm just always having a little cocktail on Sunday mornings or whatever. But, like, watching that clown go from— That is—that's much tougher for me. Yeah. Because I think also— And I imagine your audience has very specific opinions about Janine, and I'm sure that most of them aren't good.

34:03Jessica Tarlov:But Janine Pirro is actually technically qualified for that job. Right. She was a prosecutor. Yeah, prosecutor and legal analyst. And she has a great relationship with Muriel Bowser. That was one of the first things that changed when she got to that office, that she started spending all of this time with her. And Mayor Bowser has talked about that. And when you look at how she handled, like, the Jewish couple who were murdered outside of the museum in the anti-Semitic attack, like, no one would say, oh, that's a TV host who has no business doing this job. And so I'm not defending all of it. You know, the subway guy going after the canoeist in the first place, obviously, you know, attempted prosecutions of Powell, Tish James.

34:49Jessica Tarlov:I know not all of that was her, but this is how the DOJ is operating now under Trump. I think her story is much more layered. I think unequivocally that Pete, clearly not. I can't believe I know you guys covered it a lot. We certainly talked about it on Raging Moderates. But I feel like Dan Driscoll's resignation should be such a bigger deal. The former Army Secretary. Yes, who had to go to Trump directly to tell him that Pete was taking actions that undermined our military readiness and preparation for the future. I mean, when it leaked out that we had gotten under that drone unit, I thought, okay, that's kind of strange.

35:35Jessica Tarlov:And we knew the story about how the Ukrainians had come and said, we'll teach you how to do this because you might get into a jam and we'd love to help you out. And we apparently shooed them away and said, go home. But the drone unit goes and then Dan Driscoll sends up the flare where he says, this guy's firing all of the people who are in charge of the things that we need to become this modern fighting force. Yeah. That story sticks out to me a lot more. Yeah. Pete is a disaster. And he's currently losing the war to Iran. So for as long as I've been in politics, there's been a debate about whether Democrats should go on Fox News.

36:13I personally have argued it both ways, which means I'm always wrong. I think it would be fun to debate it with you. Specifically, though, I want to scope it to whether a Democrat running for president in 2028, but before they've secured the nomination, should go on Fox News. So I think after the general, it's like kind of a no-brainer, right? You have to reach the broadest audience you should. but in the primary process before you secure the nomination. Do you want to go first or second?

36:41Jessica Tarlov:I'm good either way. You choose? I don't usually get it. I'm used to at work having no choice. I'm just screaming to interrupt you either way. So what's the case for going on, Fox News? That's where the eyeballs are. Honestly, I think you would be insane not to do it. In a primary? Yeah, in a primary. You can pick your host, right? No one's saying that you have. You can figure out what kind of interview you're going to have with each person. And then you decide what you want to do. We could look at Abdul Al-Sayed from a few weeks ago going on with Jesse Waters. That was a selection. They certainly thought about where should we go to do this.

37:18Jessica Tarlov:Got 25 minutes of airtime, which is enormously valuable, right? Three, four viral clips out of it for each of them. That's one thing that is important about doing this medium is that most of the time it's mutually beneficial. And that is how I think the system should work. So if I have a great day on the five, it's completely feasible that Jesse also had a great day. And different algorithms are rejoicing. Oh, I see. Right, right, right. And so Abdul got to land his punches. He got what he wanted. And he had, you know, the fun clip, the circumcision clip, but he also had the, why are we not talking about crisis?

38:00As all circumcisions are, just a great time. That's what I've heard. Yeah.

38:04Jessica Tarlov:It was fun. I left the room. I was off the day after. But coming back and getting to say to Jesse that I was sad that I missed circumcision day was a really special moment. And you think, like, this is why you go get a PhD, right? Yes. You can say these things on TV. Well, Jesse fell in love, too, with Abdul afterwards. He kept talking about how great he was. Yeah, he didn't want to like him, but he did. And that's why you go on Fox News. That's why you go on. And it's also why you spend time talking to people who feel differently than you. Because the little things that you say when they like you seep in.

38:35Jessica Tarlov:Like, I've been talking about in breaks or just around, you know, in the green room, how John Ossoff is all about constituency work. Because there were the two big Republican mayors that came out and endorsed him. And the idea is, if you want to talk to John Ossoff, you can get him on the phone. Not just someone in his office. You can literally talk to the senator. And that makes people want to vote for you because all politics is local, et cetera. And then I'm not there one day. It's Harold who's in the liberal seat. And Jesse just says, John Ossoff's great at constituency. You accepted him. I did.

39:13That's good stuff.

39:14Jessica Tarlov:Yeah, I injected it. But so there's opportunity for that. So what I do, eyeballs, mutually beneficial, the opportunity to persuade. It also, it's a test. Going back to what Greg said about me, that I'm his muse, what he added to that, which I think is important for any sort of political conversation. He's talking about how you want to make sure that your ideas can lift weights, proverbially speaking. And too much of media today does not force us to see if our ideas can lift weights. How many times have you thought, oh, I'm going to make this point, and it sounds really good, right? You're preparing, and you say it out loud and think, oh, that's terrible.

40:00Jessica Tarlov:That was dumb. It's most days of my life, to be honest. I have them too, and then I'm like, did 4 million people just hear me say that? You're a bit of a tightrope act. But it pushes you to see what kind of weights your ideas can lift. And the most successful politicians do that, either in their constituency work or when they're out campaigning. And then they decide what venue to take those ideas to. It's how someone like an Andy Beshear, who doesn't light the room on fire when he is giving an interview. but he has the data to back it up, which is an enormously important part of, I think, advocacy, especially if you're doing it on the TV medium.

40:47Jessica Tarlov:But it gives a layer of strength to your arguments that you can't find in a debate prep room, where you can have the best people play acting, whoever the other characters are, but it's not the same as sitting down across from, well, sit down with Brett Baer. And see where he's going to go with your talking point. Yeah. Right? And what he's thinking about. Because they're also, they're telling you every day what the agenda is. They're showing the holes in the agenda, which they're trying to plug in different ways. You know, when you start, one of my least favorite things is, is when we're talking about something like the war in Iran.

41:27Jessica Tarlov:And the argument is, it's just Democrats, right? And Democrats are, you know, unpatriotic. Democrats are just criticizing us and actually we're winning, et cetera, et cetera. And then I like to use people's own words and I like to use conservatives because that's how you really make the case. Don't take it from me. Right. I'm a liberal. I know I'm an idiot and you don't believe a word I say, but. Overeducated, limousine liberal, whatever. Like, let's roll the tape, right? Of Mike McCall or whoever. I mean, Don Bacon now probably doesn't count to people. Thomas Massey. Some are pups. Yeah, conservatives are a post-war.

42:00Jessica Tarlov:No, but even. even non-real ones to them, right? Or you see a conservative host or influence or whatever. Right, Tucker or somebody. Yeah. So I just think there's tremendous opportunity to it. And I really, I don't think that 2028 is going to happen in a liberal echo chamber. That was one of the biggest messages from 2024. We do love an echo chamber. All right, I'm going to try to steel man the counter argument. And then we can talk about kind of where we both land. Because I feel like we actually agree. We probably do. But so I think there is a legitimate argument against it, which is that the hardcore Democratic primary voters who are going to decide the early contests, they are older, more liberal, and they're just not watching Fox News.

42:45They're probably watching MS Now. And then when you're a candidate, like every minute of your life is scheduled. So there is a real opportunity cost of doing one thing as opposed to another. I would also argue that when the chips are really down, Fox News is going to take a Republican line. I think we saw that in the Dominion case where the commentary on air about January 6th was very different from what was behind the scenes, right? And I think you have to go in clear-eyed about that. I also think that Fox is very good at driving a narrative that they want to talk about, right? Like you and I, we have Fox on in our office all day long.

43:20It has been a month of roadblocked Hassan Piker coverage far more than the war in Iran, right? So they're going to take you in a way you want to go.

43:28Jessica Tarlov:It's much easier to win. About Hassan than it is to win. Right. About what's going on in the Middle East. An unpopular war. Yep. Biden skipped the Fox News town halls in 2020. He won the nomination. He also skipped a podcast Save America interview. So the guy knew something. He was doing something right. And then, you know, big picture. I do think Democrats, we need to build our own media ecosystem. We don't have a Fox News. We're trying to build one humbly over here. We're way behind you guys. Well, it's a different beast. Right. It's a different beast. Now, I do think like ultimately you are getting at the dynamic that really, really matters, which is this like clipping economy dynamic.

44:04Because in 2028 or 2026, whatever year it is, the full interview doesn't matter. What matters is the piece you pluck out and you share and you blast as fast as humanly possible. And so that Abdul interview, I watched the whole thing. I cheered it a couple punches. I cringed it a lot of it.

44:19Jessica Tarlov:I actually didn't love the circumcision thing. Okay. So I came away. I want to ask you about this. Because I was like, after the thing was over, I texted some people that worked for him. And I was like, I don't know about that. What are you thinking? And they were like, our people just want to fight her. They saw him fight. And then I went to Michigan last week. And I went to his event. And he mentioned Jesse. And this lady in the audience was like, you whooped his ass. You know? And you could tell, like, they loved it. Right. But your pollster, it's like, isn't that version of, like, you know, at Loggerheads Politics, isn't that what the average voter hates?

44:51Like, the partisans love it.

44:53Jessica Tarlov:They say that they do, but the fighter mode is the most important thing. I mean, even the, quote unquote, dullest on a policy level of Democrats are now fighters, right? Totally. I have a podcast called Raging Moderates. So like it is built into how I see the political moment, which is even if you are an Alyssa Slotkin or a John Ossoff, that you need to be landing punches nonstop. Because the last thing that you want is for people to actually think that you're a moderate. Like what is going to happen when they figure out actually that these people would support bipartisan legislation or that they have middle of the road beliefs?

45:38And we are in a system that is demanding viral clips and punches, haymakers.

45:47Jessica Tarlov:Attention. And yeah, the attention economy. I'm thinking about the Abdul part again, because I didn't love the circumcision versus castration conversation, because that's what Jesse was talking about. He was talking about trans kids. And I think in general, talking about trans issues is a bit of a red herring. And it's a way to try to trap us in a culture war issue that doesn't really affect people's lives. And there are only 10 trans athletes on the NCAA level, et cetera. There's been tons of legislation, anti-trans legislation that has been born out of, you know, if you give an inch, they take a mile.

46:22Jessica Tarlov:And I've gotten that criticism because I've said from the jump, there's an obvious biological advantage to someone who went through puberty. as a boy and then is competing as a woman later on in life. Even after all the care. And Jesse was trying to like go down that road or ask about children, I think. I think he's trying to ask maybe children getting... Well, there's a false narrative that kids can get care without their parents knowing. And then sometimes it just gets reduced to, well, sometimes a teacher will call the kid by the name that they want to be called at school and doesn't tell the parents.

46:55Jessica Tarlov:I don't know. Your point is that Jesse's trying to get Like this like tiny edge case of instances that never happened that he thinks is politically challenging for Abdul. Naked about that. Yes. And Abdul wants to land a line that will live in infamy, which it does. And now we talk about circumcision day for Jesse and he has to admit that he's circumcised on TV. And like, it's a whole thing. But I am from the camp and actually talked about this when you guys so generously had me at CrookedCon last year, that I don't believe in the liberal perspective or the Democratic Party perspective that you don't have to answer questions about that.

47:38Jessica Tarlov:Because there are going to be some people, not the woman at the town hall who's like you whooped him or the event that you went to for Abdul, but there are going to be voters that are sitting on the fence. Or if you are running in a red or a purple place, people who genuinely flip-flop, depending on the election, who they like, right? They say, oh, this year, this person's great. Otherwise, and I use Jared Golden as the example, you know, that you don't win that seat if you just tell people, oh, this has been, because you've been brainwashed. Right. That's why you're asking about this. This is a really important point.

48:11I'm glad you're bringing this up because there's a lot of like consultants who will say, if you get a question about X thing, you don't like pivot to Y thing that's safer territory. This is about gas prices. I'm totally with you. And Barack Obama was very much this way. Like, if people are asking you about a thing, they're concerned about the thing and you need to answer it directly and take it head on. And if they don't like your answer, maybe they'll respect you for giving it honestly.

48:33Jessica Tarlov:Which you did hear actually in a lot of the exit polls for people who voted for Kamala Harris who didn't like her on a lot of issues, but they felt that she had answered questions about them. And they at least knew where she stood. Obviously, it was not enough people to win an election. But I was struck by that because I had felt that she was too evasive on a lot of stuff. Or just not out enough. Well, yeah. But out too much sometimes. Like, out too much on The View, but not out enough with Brett Baier. Her Brett Baier interview was so much better than her interview on The View. Oh, yeah. And that's another in the case for going on Fox News.

49:11Jessica Tarlov:But we try to spin or transform politics into something that suits our sensibilities. And we're just not in control anymore. We're not the gatekeepers on media. We don't get to decide who's legitimate. This argument of, well, do you want to platform so-and-so? Odds are so-and-so has a bigger platform than you. I know. I hate that argument so much. It kills me. And that doesn't mean that, you know, I'm going to leave this studio and hop on over to Hassan's house and sit on his Twitch stream with him. You can still make choices about where you go, but there is this air of superiority about it or that you're making, you know, this is my moral declaration.

49:49Jessica Tarlov:And voters just don't operate that way. They're not paying this level of attention, first of all. And they want to see if your ideas can lift weights. It's also not about, like, the fuse of the person you're talking to. It's about communicating your ideas to the audience that listen to that person. I just think it's like such a category error. And people just respect, honestly, the act of showing up. Yeah. I hear that all the time out in the wild. We love that you're there. Yeah. I think that you're wrong, but you come to play every day. And you've made me think differently about a few things, or I have, you're just like my liberal daughter or granddaughter.

50:26Jessica Tarlov:You know, and if you become enmeshed in people's lives in that way as a positive force, I think it's a real net positive for us electorally and for yourself personally.

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52:33We'll see you next time.

52:41Jessica Tarlov:I want to say, thinking back to the argument that you made, where you said this is where the base for the primaries is going to be watching on an MSNOW. South Carolina is going first. More conservative, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who goes on Fox all the time? I'm surprised you didn't mention— Jim Clyburn. In your book, you write that the Fox audience is actually like, what is it, like 50 % Republicans, like 20 % independents. 20 Dems and 30 independents. So it is a little, it's more, it's not just MAGA watching Fox, which I thought was interesting. Definitely not. But it's also, it's too many people for that to be the case.

53:14Jessica Tarlov:Right. So the five is four million people. You're going to get— Do you have to keep bragging about that? No, no. Like, I'm glad you, like, 4X our audience, but, like— No, it's insane that you have that for a podcast also. I mean, they're like YouTube members, so you never know what's real anymore. Don't say that. Yeah, that algorithm is the bane of my existence, where I think, oh, my God, we just had the The most interesting and thoughtful and serious conversation. And there's like an arrow on my face. And it says, like, destroyed. And we laugh about it here. Like, I get in arguments sometimes because we'll do these, like, I do a foreign policy show called Pod Save the World.

53:48We're talking about, like, the Houthi rebels. And it'll be like, Trump owned by new report. I'm like, ah, I hate the clickbait titles. But they work so well.

53:55Jessica Tarlov:Right. And then people are happy that they got there. Yeah. Eventually. The raging moderates audience loves Canada. Interesting. Loves. I mean, I think everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people are in a Canadian mood. And everyone loves an underdog, but it is. We have a lot of Canadian viewers. But then we have a lot of Americans who just want like Mark Carney porn. I know you are a Carney stan. In the limited time. I know I really like Mark Carney. I think he's great. He's interesting. I mean, who would have thought that like the neolib banker would be like the leader that, you know, the non-American world wanted.

54:29But he's proven to be that. So, again, folks probably know you from TV. In your heart, you're a political hack and a pollster like me. I don't think you're better than me because you're on the five with four million viewers.

54:44Jessica Tarlov:Sometimes it's only three and a half. I want to ask you about the Democratic Party's messaging. You're seeing the polling. You're doing the focus groups in real time on Fox. What are a couple things the Democrats are doing well right now? and what are a couple of things they're doing wrong that you think like they need to course correct on, we need to course correct on to win in 2028? So one thing that I know that you were on the right side about, and I remember kind of following this discourse online about how much we should be discussing immigration and how far you go to bat for Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who by all accounts is certainly not, who the right is saying he was, but doesn't seem like someone that I'm going to invite over to babysit my kids necessarily.

55:29Jessica Tarlov:And why are we not talking straight up about prices all the time? Why would you go to El Salvador on trips to check on prisoners and what Chris Van Hollen was doing? And I saw Elliot Morris posted about this. Looking at the data now, it's just a complete vindication of the idea that you need to talk about these things. Trump is underwater on immigration in the New York Times poll. Seven points. Crazy. Not just underwater. I mean, this has been going on for a while, and my colleagues make fun of me. They'll go, oh, do you have another poll for us? And I'm like, well, as a matter of fact, I do. Sure I do.

56:06Jessica Tarlov:Yeah, I always have a number for you. But looking at that and that it is consistent now does prove out that if you are talking about things that build connective tissue with people, where maybe the first time they hear about it, they push it to the side, right? And they say, well, it's actually your fault, your party's fault that the border was open, right? And that there are hundreds of thousands of people streaming across the border. Right. You know, a few people are going to get mixed up in something bad. I hear that all the time, even if it's an American, which is interesting because I really don't think that that's the case.

56:43Jessica Tarlov:I've said to Jesse, you're telling me that if you got hauled to an ICE detention center because you didn't have your ID on you, or you even had your ID, but they didn't care to look at it, even though you're yelling, I have my identification, I have my identification, that you'd be cool with it. Well, he got out. You hear that? Oh, he's out within 12 hours or out in a day. Much love to Jesse, but we know he's full of shit there because Milo Yiannopoulos, like one of the most right-wing kind of pro-Trump guys, was detained by DHS, deported by ICE, and has talked about what a horrific, harrowing experience it was and one that he would wish on no one.

57:22And this is a person who, like, not that long ago, essentially suggested that he was going to have a sexual experience watching someone getting picked up by ICE.

57:32Jessica Tarlov:Truly a gross person. And also, there is continued grossness about him because I know that a lot of this is just to get back on TV. And people are giving that to him, and I understand it, and it makes for good. We always go back to the clips. But the way that we actually talked about immigration, I think, worked. And that it set up a position where people could live with and understand, which is it's a good thing that the border is closed. the way that immigration enforcement is taking place in this country is not what they promised. And that this is a Stephen Miller, you know, porn scenario versus what good immigration enforcement would be.

58:13Right. Close the border, deport criminals. Like, that's what you promised. Why are we getting rid of this mom who's been in my community for 35 years?

58:19Jessica Tarlov:Yeah. By extension, and this never makes me that popular with liberal audiences, but I do think it's important. We're still not landing the plane on how to talk about ICE and enforcement in blue cities and states, especially sanctuary cities. Because those stories about Americans, mostly women who have been murdered by illegals like Sheridan Gorman, Chicago, or Lake and Riley, where we had, it was a 13 Democrats signed on to the Lake and Riley Act, even though it had poison pills in it. But when we just stand up there and say abolish ICE, which can pull at 50%, you can get 50 % of people to say that, but if you unpack it, no one thinks that law enforcement shouldn't be cooperating with ICE to turn over people who are committing crimes on American soil.

59:10Jessica Tarlov:So that's my one caveat because depending on the survey, Republicans are still ahead on crime and policing. And that's a feelings issue, right? If you are walking around and you feel unsafe. And then we're like, actually, crime is down by 0.24 % year over year. It's like the low. I live in New York City. I think it has been so smart of Mom Donnie that he stands shoulder to shoulder with our police commissioner, Jessica Tisch, whenever he can. We had the lowest level of murders in the city in decades. But you're still telling people a stat about something that they just feel. So that's my little caveat there.

59:47Jessica Tarlov:What we're doing super, super well, and this was also in the New York Times-Siena poll and kind of blew my mind, is that now the words that people associate with the Republican Party, corrupt, elitist, and extreme. Love that. That feels like the sea change to me. I'm used to being plus 24 on healthcare. They've never had a healthcare plan except that you shouldn't have healthcare. Right. And that they don't care. Except Obamacare is bad, yeah. Except Obamacare is bad and we have no real solution. Actually, I would love to get inside their minds to understand how they think that that has ever been okay.

1:00:23Yeah, it's bizarre.

1:00:24Jessica Tarlov:Though they've gotten away with it in one election since. So I guess that's how they think it. But yeah, you know, you go down the list of issues and you say, oh, this feels good. Like, you know, plus up 49 on the economy. You know, inflation, cost of living, foreign wars. Still down on artificial intelligence, which I thought was interesting. That was a really weird number. That was the only number that poll that just jumped out. It was within a margin of error. Undecided, yeah. But I do wonder if Trump is actually just taking that and trashing it. Because what Americans want is for you to tell them that there will be some sort of regulation.

1:00:53Jessica Tarlov:Yeah, just do something. Just do something. Like, my kid is in love with a chat bot. Do something. Right? Oh, my God. And now I am, too. And I am, too. But up to my kid is asking Claude or mostly ChatGPT about how to hurt him or herself. Or even like, what is my kid going to do for a living when he or she graduates? Because these chatbots are supposedly going to take all the jobs, they're saying. Everything, blue collar to white collar. Yeah. But to your point, though, on the corrupting thing, it jumped out at me, too. Because I was probably getting the same briefings you were in the first Trump term, where there was like DNC polling.

1:01:31They were like, don't make these corruption arguments. Voters don't buy it. They think he's a rich guy who isn't taking a salary. He's already rich. He's uncorruptible. Like, don't even touch this. And now John Ossoff hammers him every day on a new corruption thing, and it goes super viral. And it's like that kind of argument is really penetrated.

1:01:50Jessica Tarlov:Yeah, it's amazing to see it. I think John Ossoff is definitely a part of this. I was just in Fort Worth with Tallarico. He talks about it too. You know, they understood early on that the structure of this election is us versus them. And the them can be people of all political parties, right? That we're running against the machine, generally speaking. But I think it's also been just how little President Trump has cared about what's going on for people in their regular lives. And that he talks about things like the ballroom so often. So the grift is so obvious, right? And how little he is prioritizing you.

1:02:32Jessica Tarlov:It is permeating about the kids, the Trump kids. I mean, not just hundreds of thousands of dollars for a Funfetti cake or whatever from a Russian oligarch. A Russian oligarch funding your wedding is like— Yeah, but the contracts, you know, the drone companies, the crypto scams, all of it. The culture of corruption has finally hit. And that, to me, felt like what you can really bank in an election. Yeah, and to me, I think that is the message that we need to focus on when we're going against Trump. because you see strongmen, wannabe fascists all over the world get taken down on these sort of corruption narratives.

1:03:10Even Putin, right? The biggest threat to his rule was when Navalny was flying drones over his mansions and releasing YouTube videos of his billion-dollar house off the Black Sea or whatever it was.

1:03:25Jessica Tarlov:He solved that. Yeah, Putin took care of that one the hard way. Jessica Tarlov. Again, the book is I Disagree, Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends. Great to see you. Really, it's a very fun read. And you'll learn some things. That's some fun stories. So everyone should check it out. Well, I would love that. And thanks for having me. It was great to be here in Crooked HQ. That's it for us for today. We will be back in your feed on Tuesday. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Faris Safaris with Reed Cherlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill.

1:03:58Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hefcoat, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, David Tolles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

1:04:11If you missed some of your favorite Crooked Pods this week, don't worry. You can now catch up on the week's best moments on MS Now on Saturday nights. MS Now is streaming an episode of highlights from your favorite Crooked Pods, Packing as much analysis, funny moments, and 100 % correct opinions into 40 minutes as humanly possible. Crooked on MS Now airs every Saturday at 9 p.m. Eastern, 6 p.m. Pacific.

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