From Pirro to Zero

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22:40Speaking of Trump cabinet kooks, RFK Jr., he made an appearance on CNN's State of the Union with Dana Bash on Sunday morning for a thoughtful conversation about the nation's health. Let's take a listen. I will literally eat anything. because I don't have a gag reflex. Let me put it like that. That's what Lindsey Graham said in heaven. Wow. Wow. I just wanted to play that for you guys. That was not the Dana Bash conversation, but that is what the Health and Human Service Secretary is up to.

23:14Jon Favreau:It's such a weird way to describe why you'll eat anything. It's not like I have an adventurous palate. I enjoy all kinds of food. it's like nothing makes me puke i don't have a gag reflex okay good to know write it down all right let's uh let's check out the actual conversation with dana bash cases in the u.s protected children i think that what i have talked to scientists and doctors about scientists can you look can you show me one study yes you are saying nonsense you are saying something that you cannot You're not showing me a single study that says that. I am not saying nonsense. You are talking what somebody told you.

23:54Excuse me. And you were saying, cite me the study. What study? No, what studies are you talking about? You're talking about studies that actually don't exist. And I really want to move on. But you were saying, yes, I do. Because you were part of the problem. No, I wasn't part of the problem. There was absolute press malpractice. Okay, are you going to, you want to sit here and attack me? Or do you want to have conversations about public health? I'm not attacking you. I'm asking questions about how to prevent the next grand moment. And let me ask the question and I'll tell you. That's what I'm trying to do.

24:24But Dana, you probably don't understand this because you're not a scientist, but genes don't cause. Well, you're not either. So what did you guys think of that uncomfortable and somewhat infuriating interview? So it is so hard. 20 minutes that went, by the way. 20 minutes. And it's a brutal 20 minutes. And it is very difficult to, in real time, fact check someone who is all over the fucking place, mischaracterizing studies, asking you to prove the negative in the next sentence, grabbing for all kinds of things. The Mennonites aren't vaccinated. Actually, Lyme disease is from gain of function research.

25:03And you're all over the place. And this is where it's like, you know what? I think Dana trying to call upon the history of recalling expertise and things you've abrived. And this is where I think what makes it so difficult is that RFK, his whole thesis, right, is that this is all pretty nefarious, right? He says like, oh, the ICUs were actually empty. They were lying about basically how full all the ICUs were because they were trying to scare people and control people. You're being misled by all the experts. And I'm the one here to tell the truth. And you're just going to recite the experts that I have the real facts about.

25:35But he doesn't. Like RSV is not from gain of function research. That's a lie. Lyme disease is not from gain of function.

25:43Jon Favreau:They found the Lyme disease bacteria in a 5 ,000 year old prehistoric fossil. COVID, multiple studies have shown that COVID protects. T-Rexes were doing gain of function. Yeah, show me one study that COVID vaccines protect kids. Tons of studies show that COVID protects kids. There was one that found that the only kids in the ICU from inflammation due to COVID were unvaccinated kids just over and over and over again. These like, you can't show me this and you can't show me that. Well, maybe not while sitting there kind of being peppered with bullshit from RFK Jr. with sort of misogynistic, you're not a scientist shit.

26:17But of course he's just like, you know, dissembling and misleading and lying about what the evidence is.

26:23Jon Favreau:Yeah, I think she did a good job at some points, less good at the other. The very top, he says the U.S. had the highest death rate from COVID. That's just not even close to true. Peru had the highest death rate per capita. We had the highest death toll, but that's largely a function of having the third highest population in the world. Yeah. We're down at like 18 for something, something the teens for. Yeah. And also they get into this weird place where like a bunch of countries with, you know, less stable governments don't have the resources to collect all the data. So we don't really know all this stuff.

26:53Jon Favreau:She asked the question about, she asked him about gain of function research. And then he came back with this lie saying RSV and Lyme disease were created by gain-of-function research, which is just unequivocally not true. And I think you do have to be prepared on that one to be like, that is absolutely not true. The question phrasing itself was kind of strange. It was sort of like in defense of gain-of-function research. I'm not sure that was the most valuable question. And then she kept pushing to move on, which is complicated because then you kind of sound slippery. I think it got better and more constructive in the measles section because she really just wanted to pin him down and get him to say, yes, like get your kid the MMR vaccine.

27:28Jon Favreau:There's a horrible measles outbreak. is deadly for kids. But then RFK says, I never questioned the efficacy of the MMR vaccine. Yes, he did. He said it wanes. He called it leaky. That's a lie. It's like 90 % effective. It has lifelong protection. 90 % of measles cases are unvaccinated people or of an unknown status. Now, I had to research all of that, right, to like kind of fact check this guy. It is why he's so slippery and condescending. But like when you interview that guy, that's the job. Yeah, I think this is how conspiracy theorists, especially with science and medicine, this is how they work, right?

28:02Which is scientific judgment is not like every single scientist in every single study for all of time agrees on the same thing. It's the preponderance of evidence points one direction. Maybe there's one study that says something else. And then the conspiracy theorist latches on to the one study and is like, well, maybe that's the study. Maybe that's the study that actually tells the truth and all the other experts are wrong. and every time she could cite a study he could cite a study back the best way to get him is time what you just said which is if he claims that he said something you can be like no this is actually what you said you know and you can you put it up yeah put it up but or just say

28:38Jon Favreau:study these nuts right sure but it's also a safe and effective way to reply but when you're going when you're going study by study and science by science this is this is like you know it's a microcosm of how we all fucked up the pandemic so badly right is that it's just a bunch of now Everyone can go find their own research and can go find some study or some scientist or some asshole on Twitter who debunks scientific evidence that is overwhelming. Like that is that's the whole story of how we how we went through the pandemic. Yeah. Now the guy is fucking health and human services. Right. Right.

29:10And he also just more broadly, right, deeply mischaracterizes the body of research on autism, from vaccines to Tylenol, in part because if you're doing tons and tons of studies, one study may show a correlation. And then some more research is done. And they say, you know what, actually, we took that correlation research and we ran another analysis across a much bigger sample to see what would happen between siblings. right and actually turns out that that correlation doesn't produce causation when you look at it another way and this is a much deeper bit of research and so you know while nothing is ever known for certain we believe this is just sort of uh something that you can say there's no evidence for but that's not acceptable but this is why i come back to the icu thing like why what is like this is where i think you have to go like so you're saying all of these scientists are lying or misleading because what they they want kids to get sick they want kids to get autism newsrooms

30:03Jon Favreau:are lying to newsrooms were saying that new york city er's were full and they were making it up what on earth are you donald trump was president if that were happening he would have gotten to the bottom of it that's his hometown and it's fucking insane and what's the motivation that they just they wanted everyone to stay home they wanted to scare people they wanted to vote by mail eventually that to have everyone stay home and then i guess they all probably had you know, business connections to the pharmaceutical companies. Big mask? Yeah. Well, to try to get the vaccine. That's why they're all pushing the vaccine.

30:35Well, this was also like there were people running around with video cameras trying to prove that the ICUs in their town or their place were empty. And it was like, well, that's not the COVID ward. And by the way, yeah, like they're worried there's about to be a huge influx of patients, et cetera, et cetera. And like, it's all this idea that like you can't trust anybody. You can't trust the experts. You can't trust the science. Like, did Fauci and all, did they like, you know, there was plenty of ways in which they They were trying to be, I think, you know, too declarative, afraid of giving people nuance because they weren't able to they weren't sure what they could trust the public with, in part because there were so much so much misinformation.

31:06But these were people desperately trying to figure out what to do in the middle of an emergency. And he sits there like kind of leaning back, being like it was all a lie. They were all lying. It is so fucking disgusting. But this is the whole I mean, this all came from the Fauci hearings last week, which we didn't really talk about on the pod. But basically, they decided that because they found that in Fauci's, you know, private journal, he was like, it's so cool to be me and meet celebrities. I'm like the most famous person in the world. They're like, that shows that he killed everyone.

31:36Jon Favreau:Fauci's like, butt dialed Barbra Streisand again. What a voice. And they're like, sir, that proves it. That proves that you did everything wrong. Like, yeah. God forbid we have an egomaniac in charge during a pandemic. is is it great for uh medical research in the scientific community to have the clips out there of fauci pleading the fifth however many times in front of this hearing terrible obviously is terrible do i understand why you did it from a legal perspective kind of i read half an article on this because i'm not obsessed with like i do think i am there is like i'm just kidding like it was just sort of an asymmetric story where republicans are obsessed with this and democrats are like i want to think of anything but the pandemic it was the worst couple years of my life.

32:18Jon Favreau:None of us want to go back. America agrees. Yeah. But yeah, it is just, I don't know. Bobby Kennedy, man. That's who's in charge. Unbelievable. All right. It's primary day in Michigan, and we got some midterm news to talk about, including a big announcement of our own. Today, Vote Save America is launching what we're calling the Crooked Dozen. Twelve of the most vulnerable House Republicans who we can put out of a job this November. But we need your help, dear listener. If you go to votesaveamerica.com right now and sign up, You will get practical, concrete steps that you can take to help flip these seats and lots of others up and down the ballot.

32:51You're going to get information on where to donate, where to volunteer, how to make sure your friends and family are getting the best information about the races. Lots more information. It literally takes two seconds to sign up at votesaveamerica.com. And if you're already signed up, grab a couple friends, have them sign up too. We're trying to get as many people as possible. We did this back with the Crooked 7 back in 2018.

33:11Jon Favreau:Worked pretty damn well then. It did, yeah. I think we got almost all of them. And yeah, so we're trying to we're trying to raise money for the Democratic candidates who are going to take these folks on and also just get some volunteers going. As an added incentive, we do have some news about one of the crooked dozen. Max Miller, the Republican representing Ohio 7th District, South Cleveland. You may already be following this incredibly disturbing story. In 2024, Miller and his wife, Emily Moreno, who's the daughter of Republican Senator Bernie Moreno, got divorced and the custody battle for their two year old daughter ended up in court.

33:47As part of that court fight, Emily Moreno said that Miller repeatedly abused her, scalding her with hot water, holding a gun to her head and breaking their daughter's collarbone. The allegations, which Miller denies, started getting more attention over the last week or so when Senator Moreno refused to comment or call for his ex son-in-law to resign and to quit his campaign. Miller then delivered a 20-minute live stream statement on Sunday morning, where he did not drop out, but accused Emily Moreno of being a stalker and saying things like this.

34:20Jon Favreau:If I had assaulted her, would she had offered to cook me dinner six days later? Would she have invited me to spend an afternoon at the playground with her and our daughter? Would she have written that we were in a friendlier place? No, she wouldn't have, ladies and gentlemen. the boiling water story the media has run with. That story is about an incident in June of 2024 while we were still married. And here's the truth, and this is the absolute truth. It was horseplay in our kitchen. If these accusations were true, I would be in jail. That is just... He also posted and then deleted a Dropbox folder of audio he'd recorded of her, some of which contradicted his own claims.

35:07So then he took it down. After that disgusting display, Bernie Moreno, the senator, his former father-in-law, finally spoke out, posted a long statement that said, among other things, that the two years since the divorce have been pure hell, that he holds his breath every time Miller has custody of his granddaughter. And that, quote, if there are any basic standards of character required to hold elected office, Max Miller fails them. He should not serve in the House of Representatives. Miller then immediately called him a liar. So I assume there's been a groundswell of Republicans now calling for Miller to step aside, right?

35:44Trump was in the Oval Office, was asked about that and said, well, he's a good person, good person, terrible situation. You know, I guess the family will have to decide. The family will have to decide. What do you guys make of the whole situation?

35:55Jon Favreau:I mean, Max Miller should be in prison, not Congress, period. He is lying abusive scum. This is not the only instance of him being accused of abuse. He was accused of beating his ex-girlfriend, Stephanie Grisham, who worked in the Trump White House. She said he threw her up against a wall and slapped her. Politico reported that Miller pushed a female high school classmate down a flight of stairs because she refused his sexual advances. There's another alleged incident of Miller abusing a woman in college. We don't really know the details there, but it's been mentioned in court transcripts. He had a bunch of violent fights and incidents in high school or in his early 20s.

36:30Jon Favreau:So this guy is clearly has a pattern of alleged abuse. And I think that should be enough for him to be thrown out of Congress. But Republicans have not most Republicans either just duck the question or, you know, want to preserve their majority. Now, like there's a lot of focus has been put on Bernie Moreno and his response. He's an Ohio senator. His daughter is the one making these allegations. I think my gut reaction when I read his when he wouldn't respond was like that he had failed his basic job as a father and was a coward and to really condemn him more than others. The more I thought about it, the more I was like, I don't know.

37:11Jon Favreau:You don't know what's happening inside a family. You don't know what his conversations with his daughter are like. You don't know the fear that he could have about his granddaughter who had joint custody. So I don't know. I feel like I need to dial it back a bit. His wife, Emily's mother. Yeah, it's complicated. And so like she was really upset. And so I think he didn't. I mean, but like whatever, he got it done. But like Jim Jordan was on Congressman Jim Jordan was on TV and was asked about this. I think it was CNN or maybe it was MS now and just absolutely will not draw a moral line in the sand for this man who's clearly a fucking scumbag.

37:46Well, Jim Jordan has sort of a history of this refusing to do that. Yeah. The like the statement from Bernie Marino makes clear that he felt like he was trying to avoid speaking out about it on his daughter's behalf. So Trump is refusing to condemn him, which is leading to no one else being willing to call on him to resign. If he doesn't step back by Wednesday, I believe, he'll be on the ballot. So he's hanging on. Now, if Max Miller seems to have this history, obviously there are these allegations in this marriage, there's allegations in previous relationships, allegations of other violence in the past, whatever has been said publicly, that means that there are that that like Stephanie Grisham was close to Donald Trump.

38:34That means that there are people that the senators are aware of this. Other members of the House are aware of this. The White House is aware of this, that this guy is fucking violent piece of shit. And they have all just been what? Silent about it, ignoring about it, keeping their heads down.

38:47Jon Favreau:Trump called him a good person. He's basically a character witness. Should say to that what broke this whole thing open was Abby Vassoulis of Mother Jones reported there. Like she broke the story on July 18th, where she just went through all the court documents that were out there and all the filings. And it is, I mean, it's a tough read, but like a child protection specialist reviewed the incident, characterized the bruising near the fracture as resembling a handprint. Now, Miller's story is that the daughter, it was a seatbelt that like the car stopped short, whatever. Emily Moreno doesn't believe this, of course.

39:18And then the child protection specialist said it's a handprint. And apparently the daughter said, daddy's house is scary. to her mother. And also he contradicted himself in the court filings because first he said he didn't pour hot water on her neck. And then he said in the next sentence, well, the water incident, I never thought that that hurt you. There's no horseplay with boiling water. No, which is basically admitting that he actually did it. So he's a liar. He's had a violent past. He obviously should not be believed. And it is crazy that Republicans are not immediately calling for this guy to drop out of Congress, drop out of the race, let alone Congress.

39:55Yeah. It's disgusting.

39:58Jon Favreau:I mean, like doing that to a two year old makes you want to drive over to his house with a baseball bat and solve it that way. I mean, that that's the part that's like the whole story is absolutely sickening. This is an evil person. I hope they indict him and lock him up. And I hope every single Republican is forced to have to answer the questions about this and like and there's stammers into the fucking camera because, you know, none of them can cross Trump because Trump didn't tell him to drop out. It's not just him. I mean, there's a guy named Corey Mills, who's another Republican from Florida who was accused of some sort of physical abuse of a woman.

40:31Jon Favreau:He was also accused of like sextortion and threatening to release nude images of her. And Republicans, again, they just pretend this is not happening. I mean, he's under investigation by the House Ethics Committee for like some sorts of violations, but no one's calling for his expulsion. And it's like with Miller, too, he's like, well, I'm not going to drop out for people who want to try this in the court of public opinion. It's like, no, no, no, it's not being tried in the court of public opinion. We have actual court court documents. That's where it is. Like we have we have court court. We have we have testimony.

41:04This is not just hearsay that people are talking about. There's actual documents about this. Fucking asshole.

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44:02All right. So as you're listening to this, It's election day in Michigan where Abdul El-Sayed and Haley Stevens are fighting it out for the Senate nomination. Any thoughts from you guys on on Haley and Abdul's closing messages or anything else from the last few days of campaigning? You know, we're got a little heated. You did get a little heated. There's this one number that jumped out at me, which is just sort of as a preview of coming attractions, because we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. But that in I think is the Emerson poll that under 50, Abdul is leading Haley Stevens, 67 to 25.

44:34Over 60, Stevens is leading 53 to 39. And like that is like remarkable. That is a crazy gap. And it just like whatever happens in this race, whether or not Haley Stevens and, you know, whatever, 30 to 60 million, whatever number from APAC in ads plus concerns that Abdul will lose to Mike Rowe, whatever it is. Whatever eking out a victory that is possible tomorrow, this tells you the direction that the party is going. And if people want an alternative to left candidates or they think the left candidates don't represent their point of view, I think we've seen over and over again that unless there is a center left or center that can offer something more exciting, persuasive, optimistic, something for people to grab onto.

45:20I think though, like the establishment will keep being surprised by when given the choice between our candidate or else, like people keep choosing or else. Yeah.

45:28Jon Favreau:I think so much of the conversation about this race is focused on the meta stakes and what it means for the party and also the exchanging of barbs, you know, the attacks and the money. Sure. A lot of trading. APAC and stuff. But I was reading this New Yorker interview Abdul did over the weekend during my own little brush with the healthcare industry in this country and how fun it can be. And I was reminded why I'm so excited about his candidacy. Like he is a fundamentally optimistic, hopeful guy who brings real expertise as a doctor and a health professional to the job. Not RK Jr. level. No, he is like an incredibly talented speaker.

46:09Jon Favreau:He's a good human being. We're lucky enough to know him. And I'm just, it just reminded me to be excited about him and the fact that he's could potentially be a US Senator. And, you know, there was this graph in the story that really just jumped out at me that I wanted to read about because he, he talks about how his story and his parents story is only possible in America. This sort of like fundamentally patriotic, optimistic story. And then he couches like why he is hopeful about fixing the broken U.S. health care system in his optimism about America as well. He says the thing about America is that we don't do things like other people.

46:43Jon Favreau:We do them better. I love that about our country. And that's obviously very like Obama 08 coded and part of why I like it. And I think there's a risk of just cutting, not cutting pasting, but like, you know, that rhetoric from that era. It was a different time. The world is, the electorate now is in a darker place. Atcome inequality is worse. Younger people feel even more hopeless about the system, about the economy, about their prospects in life. So you don't want to just kind of like repeat, you know, the Obama era optimism. But I do think, because it could sound naive, but I do think that what Abdul is getting at is talking about problems and systemic challenges, but then giving people some hope that he actually can fix it or that we have the capacity to fix them as a nation.

47:25Jon Favreau:And I think that has been missing in a lot of the political debate that is either just about Trump or about how cooked we are because of capitalism. Yeah. The national discourse has sort of lumped in all the left candidates together is like, you know, they're all socialists and they all believe the same thing. And it's all, you know, none of them are going to be able to win. And, you know, for some have pretty extreme positions and we've talked about them before. And, you know, I've been even critical of some of, you know, the way Abdul has said some things, too, in this race. But I thought this was the best interview that he has given.

48:03And if you are open-minded and still unsure about Abdul, like I would absolutely read this with David Remnick in The New Yorker. I thought it was really, really great. Look, if Abdul wins the primary, if the polls are correct, it is going to be a difficult general election. And, you know, the gold standard poll in Michigan came out over the weekend and has him down a few to Mike Rogers. And Haley Stevens performed better in that poll. I don't think that means he can't win by any means. But I think that what he's going to have to do to be victorious is exactly what he did, I think, in that interview and talk like he did in that interview.

48:43And because it shows a love of country, it's like a liberal patriotism. He talks about how he's a capitalist. he talks about he has criticized he's criticized Obama in the past as we know he was very complimentary and he just he seems extremely thoughtful like he just didn't get into this race because he wanted to like throw out slogans and all this kind of stuff like it seems like he has fought all this stuff through especially health care yeah he's just a really really smart

49:06Jon Favreau:guy who is like hands-on experience tackling these problems and will be really good at the job and it's exciting to think about not just how these people campaign but what they'd be like in the job. And I think post post primary, assuming of dual wins, we don't know, but a lot of the polls suggest he will, he will have to do a lot of work to kind of get back Haley Stevens supporters. Um, I think he's done a really good job in recent weeks of kind of tamping down supporters to cross the line who like make fun of Haley Stevens in ways that are just sexist or inappropriate or just mean. Um, there's going to have to be more of that, you know, like after when it looked like Bernie was winning in 2020, a lot of his supporters were telling other people to bend the knee and shit like that.

49:41Jon Favreau:And it's just like such a toxic, terrible way to consolidate an electorate. And then it'll be incumbent on everyone, no matter how bruised their feelings are, to just remember that this is about winning the Senate seat and denying Mike Rogers this election and making it a referendum on Trump. Like a vote for Rogers is a vote for Trump. And Rogers is trying to kind of avoid all hard questions. Like, I don't know if you guys saw. Just see the semaphore thing? Yeah. He won't talk about the weaponization fund. He won't comment on Iran. How would he? So Nicholas Wood did this interview with him. How would he vote on the multiple Senate approved measures to condemn President Donald Trump's tariffs.

50:15I don't know. Where does he stand on Trump's anti-representation fund? Quote, I'm not talking about any of that stuff. I don't care. I mean, I care. As for the Iran war, he said he'd heard, quote, hardly anything from constituents on the trail about it. This guy has been living in Florida. Florida. Yeah. So he retired, bought a house in Florida, tried to run in 2024, lost to Slotkin. And now he's He's trying to revive himself again. So like, yes, we definitely should tie him to Trump and with good reason. But like Mike Rogers just is a character on his own is just looking to be defined right out of the gate.

50:50Jon Favreau:And I think that like if I that's like number one on Abdul's list or if Haley wins her as part of the corruption story of Trump, like Trump, like this guy was in government, lost, left and went and made a bunch of money, you know, like helping out the industries he used to regulate. Yeah. This whole idea that he is maybe more moderate or more old school Republican establishment than some of these guys. Like, I think that the corruption and the tie to Trump and just sort of the like out of touch sort of vibes he gives off from having been in Florida for a while and not really caring about all these issues is a real weakness for him.

51:23But it's got to be exploited. Yeah, like this is where sometimes I like there's just we're going to do politics. Maybe maybe Abdul starts a little bit further behind than Haley Stevens would. OK, do you believe in politics? Do you believe in the ability to persuade? Do you think Abdul will be a better senator than Mike Rogers? I do. Do you think it's more important to have a Democratic Senate than any criticism or concern you might have about Abdul's being further left than you? I do. So maybe other people can be persuaded of that as well. As long as everybody kind of after this primary is over figures out how to come together.

51:52There have been moments in this, look, the left is a big, fractious group of people. There have been moments in a lot of these primaries where it is clear that some people who are part of these primaries care more about winning factional fights against Democrats than they do about actually beating Republicans. There have been bad moments in interviews where I think Abdul has reflected that aspect of the movement. But when he is at his best, when he is speaking about what governing can actually do, a kind of broad and optimistic vision for the country, I think, yes, that is somebody that has absolutely can kind of build support in Michigan, especially with someone who's supposed to be like the toughest one to beat Mike Rogers.

52:24Like, come on. Like, I think that I think like everybody needs to like kind of figure out how to come together and then and then make that argument. Last thing before we get to my conversation with Francesca Hong, I promise you we do not enjoy talking about Ken Martin and the drama at the DNC. But unfortunately, the news keeps on coming. The latest is a story from The New York Times in which Paul Rivera, the personal friend to whom Martin assigned the fabled autopsy, claims that when Martin did finally release the report, he omitted a chapter that Rivera wrote titled What Happened in 2024? It seems like something you'd want in a report about what happened in 2024.

53:01Just a minor detail. The chapter criticized Biden's decision to run for reelection as perhaps, quote, the single point of failure for 2024. It also criticized senior Democratic strategists for being too rich to understand the struggles of most Americans. Rivera gave the Times the full text of the allegedly missing chapter. Martin denies ever seeing or knowing about it at all, despite Rivera saying he handed him a binder, a three ring binder with the chapter in it. So this pits two incompetent people against each other who have also been, well, at least in Ken Martin's case, deceptive in the past.

53:35So even if Ken Martin is telling the truth, this is part of the reason that you don't lie to people because it is hard to believe you when you haven't been honest about everything in the past. I just want to read the first line in this supposedly sort of this secret and damning chapter. American politics is a study in inflection points. It sure is. Boy. It sure is. A land of contradictions, I find. What'd you guys make of the whole thing? I am sure that to Ken Martin, this all feels very unfair. From this original sin of putting this guy in charge of the autopsy, getting something back that was sort of incompetent and that would create a bunch of controversy, but not actually address our problems, deciding to not release it.

54:20Like, I see how at each step, it's one mistake and it leads to others and others and others. Tangled web. And so there's that sort of that cascade of mistakes. And then there's the sort of the cascade of the money going out to places where they don't elect senators or house members, because you promised to kind of invest all over the place, including in the territories, people having questions about your fundraising and all of this sort of building on itself. And that now, even though there are parts of your program that you think make sense and are good, it's unfair because there's no way for you to gain purchase.

54:53You can't. The fundraising is anemic because people don't trust you. You need to have more money on the books. Otherwise, people keep reporting how much more money the RNC has. This guy comes out with a stupid fucking chapter. Maybe you saw it. Maybe you didn't. But it only proves that you were right, that his work wasn't worthy of release in the first place, even though people are mad at you thinking it's some sort of conspiracy. That all may be frustrating. Too fucking bad. We need the money. We need a DNC chair people can trust. You are not that whether it happens now or after the elections in November It doesn't really matter But the idea that this guy is going to be in charge of the Democratic National Committee as we head into the presidential is ridiculous

55:26Jon Favreau:Yeah, the original sin was asking your buddy Paul Rivera to do this report because he's just not In any way credentialed to do I think the last presidential campaign he worked on was in 2004 for Al Gore John Kerry Oh, sorry, John Kerry. Yeah, I remember Yeah. And then Rivera worked for this New York State Senate leader who was convicted of federal fraud. And people who worked around Rivera in that era in New York State Senate said, first of all, it was a horrible period of politics for the Democratic Party. He's this corrupt, awful, you know, state Senate group. And then that Rivera personally was just sort of a weird behind the scenes guy who didn't they didn't know what he did ever.

56:05Jon Favreau:He was in no way the right person to do this report. So picking that guy was the original sin. And then there was, as always, the cover up was worse than the crime and spiking the report and then lying about the report. And now Rivera said is now Rivera says Ken is lying about the release of this chapter. I don't trust either messenger here. I'm inclined to believe that if this guy wrote this chapter, he would have given it to Ken Martin personally. Because why would you lie about this? I don't think there was some strategic brilliance in this chapter, right, or anything really worth covering up.

56:41Jon Favreau:But I think what this does is, once again, raise questions about whether Ken Martin is an honest person. And I don't think he is. And I think if you are stepping on rakes all the time and if you are lying all the time, you should not be leading the Democratic Party on top of all the fundraising failures. So, yeah, it's just this is a real fun weekend for anyone who wants to close the book on the 2024 election. When we also have Hunter Biden saying his dad's debate performance was bad because he had cancer, but also still lashing out at anyone who said that that bad debate performance meant that he should have dropped out of the race.

57:16Jon Favreau:Wild thing to say. One would think that if the cancer was so bad and problematic that it would lead you to not be able to debate, it would mean you can't be president for only four years. And it didn't just – it's not just the type of cancer that manifests on stage in a national debate. It's crazy. Almost in relief that it wasn't a stroke. Yeah. Which is his wife thought it was. There was a scoop today from Notice that Martin told DNC members on a members-only call that he's convening a special finance committee to help with fundraising. So I don't know who's in that committee, but hopefully it works.

57:46If you're a state party – Maybe George Clooney.

57:49Jon Favreau:Yeah. If you're a state party and you are hanging on to Ken Martin because you get a check every month, at some point you have to realize that that check's going to stop coming when there's no money. Yeah. It's like two things can be true. It can be great that Ken Martin sent you a check and that you've been able to hire more staffers. Like that is important to invest in state parties, but also like you do need the money to do that. Right. Like that's you'll have to fire them to raise the money. You can't. There's no money. Right. Exactly. Which seems like a problem. Did you guys see that? But there's a lot of rapid response coming out of the DNC to try to defend the work they're doing.

58:19Because there's fantastic people at the DNC working really hard. This cannot be easy for them. But one staffer put out a video where he's petting his cat and telling people that everything's good at the DNC. There's some background music. It was deleted. It was deleted before I had a chance to see it, to be honest. I saw the still of it, but I never actually got to see the video itself, sadly for me.

58:42Jon Favreau:Undelete the cat video. I liked it. It got attention. Yeah, great. Yeah, no bad press. No bad press. Yeah, he was like stroking. It looks like it wasn't authorized. It was pretty sure it was unauthorized. It did have, I think, an unintentional Dr. Evil kind of connotation. So when I was a kid, Inspector Gadget, the opening credits. Oh, yeah. There's a moment where you never see Dr. Claw. He's always petting a cat with one hand. And then there's a moment at which he runs up to the chair in front of a fireplace, spins it around. and there's the arm, but it's attached to a spring and then the chair blows up.

59:15Yeah.

59:16Jon Favreau:I know. And I thought as a kid that the villain was a chair with a spring attached to it. Oh. And that he was trying to kill Inspector Gadget. Very literal kid. And I, yes, a lot of these things could have been diagnosed earlier, I think. But, I thought the never ending story was named that because the credits were so long. Oh, what a song. It's funny that petting a cat is evil coded and petting a puppy is like the way you soften your image. Odd and smart. Yeah, Mike Vrabel at press conferences being like, what infidelity? Yeah, that's right. Anyway, more cats from the DNC. All right. When we come back, Wisconsin gubernatorial candidate Francesca Hum.

59:58Hey, Dan Taberski here. I'm a podcast host, a journalist, and now with my newest project, the author of my own manifesto. Well, it's a manifesto about manifestos. My search for inspiration in a world that feels more infuriating, more out of its freaking mind with each passing hour. Manifestos are a call to action, an artful scream. They capture our anger and they try to do something with it. This is my attempt to take the manifesto back from mass shooters and nihilists and return it to its rightful place with the warriors, the visionaries, the regular folks with just the right amount of crazy.

1:00:33I compare notes with radicals, secessionists, internet trolls out for a laugh, and punk singers screaming their guts out, all trying to turn their anger into the world they want to see. Listen to Manifesto wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Manifesto early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

1:00:57Jon Favreau:Hey, it's Tommy from Pod Save America and Pod Save the World. Last year, 2 ,500 people joined us at Crooked Con for conversations with some of the smartest organizers, least annoying politicians, and most interesting voices in politics to talk about how to fix this mess. Even President Obama made a surprise appearance. We're doing it all again November 5th to 7th in Washington, D.C., with even more podcasts, panels, and workshops. Plus, there'll be drinks, which we'll need after the midterms, no matter which way they go. Get tickets at CrookedCon.com. If you're a friend of the pod, you get a discount, too.

1:01:26Jon Favreau:See you there.

1:01:32Francesca Hong, welcome to Pod Save America. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I know this has to be a busy week for you, so thanks for doing this. And just to start off, you know, I think it is incredibly important for Wisconsin to have a Democratic governor because we can't have an election denier like Tom Tiffany in a position to certify or not certify the 2028 election. But since Republicans will spend an ungodly amount of money to defeat you if you're the nominee, to try to defeat you, I just want to make sure you have the best possible answers to what's coming. So I want to start with your 2020 posts supporting defunding the police, quote, as a first step towards abolishing the police, which in a separate post you said, quote, exists to uphold white supremacy.

1:02:19Now, I know you've said you're not running to defund the police. It's not something you can do as governor and that people's views can evolve. I'm wondering how your views on policing have evolved since 2020. My views have only become stronger in that I'm serious about public safety and I will not abolish the police. My views are that people are struggling right now and need basic needs met. And I want to focus on stopping violent crime and giving law enforcement the resources and the training that they need, but ensure that we are also holding accountable law enforcement that does not follow the law.

1:03:01Do you still believe that police exist to uphold white supremacy? No. When did that change for you? And what has changed in your thinking since you posted that in 2020? No, I think that when you talk to people who are most justice impacted, a mother who lost a child to police violence, people who have contended with injustices in historically marginalized communities. But justice also looks like making sure that we are implementing solutions and helping to change the material conditions of people's lives. So as a legislator over the last six years, I've had more conversations with people who are more directly connected to the problems and have learned that it is most important for a public servant like myself to make sure we're looking at sensible, practical solutions that will help keep communities safe.

1:03:58You said during this campaign back in May that there has to be accountability for people who commit crimes. And if you're a governor and people commit crimes, that, quote, incarceration and law enforcement are the systems in place right now. You also said your long-term vision is a world without prisons. How does that work? What I know is attainable and the policies that actually meet the urgency of the moment and understanding the realities of it means that we have to ensure that we're funding our local governments, that we're bringing justice to victims. and what may have been more aspirational is not primary.

1:04:36What we need to do is make sure that people all across Wisconsin have access to great public schools, out-of-school programs, mental health resources, and that we hold law enforcement accountable but also provide them with the training that they need to help prevent crime and stop crime. One place this could come up, I think, in the general election, and of course if you become governor, commutations are yours alone, no legislature. no courts, would you commute sentences for people convicted of murder? You know, the last governor before Tony Evers to serve commutations was Republican Tommy Thompson.

1:05:13And I believe that commutations moving forward, the system has to be designed by the folks who are also most impacted right now. And so at this time, I would not extend a commutation to somebody who has murdered somebody else. If you're governor, you'll have something of a high-class problem and that one of the first things you'll have to figure out is what to do with a$2.5 billion surplus projected. Governor Evers and Republican leaders in the legislature reached a deal in May that would have given people$300 rebate checks, property tax relief, special education reimbursement, and no tax on tips and overtime.

1:05:51Passed the assembly, you voted no, and then it died in the Senate. 80 % of voters, including 82 % of Democrats, said it should have passed, according to the Marquette poll. Why do you think the voters were wrong? We have to make sure that the people who are struggling the most have durable solutions. And what that bill would have done is not given a rebate to those who are on fixed incomes, to folks who are making under$50 ,000 an hour. That's over a million Wisconsinites. Those are people who absolutely deserve relief. And we were seeing these$600 and$300 rebates go to millionaires and billionaires.

1:06:32And I'm focused on making sure that everyday working class people are not only able to get real relief through cutting property taxes, which we can do when we fund our schools, but also that folks are able to have access to good jobs, fair, affordable childcare, and free paid leave for all. And so for us, it's irresponsible if we don't think about some of the folks who need the funding the most. Tom Tiffany said he wants to return the entire$2.5 billion surplus to taxpayers. What specifically do you want to do with it? Would taxpayers get any refunds or what's your priority list if you're fortunate enough to be governor and have a democratic legislature?

1:07:16I want to cut property taxes, which we can do by almost 44 % when we add in a millionaire and billionaire tax. I want to make sure that we're investing in free child care for folks across our state while also providing bridge payments so that our child care centers can stay open. We need to invest in public education, but also have funds available to attack and to make sure that we are extending health care. I mean, Americans and Wisconsinites are risking losing their health care because of a bill that Tom Tiffany voted for. So health care education and ensuring that we're lowering taxes is what I'll be focusing on with that surplus.

1:07:56You're the only Democrat backing a one year moratorium on data centers. You argue that the tax exemptions will cost the state more than$2 billion. Tom Tiffany says he wouldn't back a moratorium, but that he'd also end those subsidies and that people shouldn't have to absorb the higher utility rates. So why is the moratorium the better policy? And what's that contrast going to be like between the two of you if you're the nominee? The moratorium is what hundreds and thousands of voters across the state, regardless of political ideology, have been demanding. because the scale and speed in which these data centers continue to grow, waiting for legislation in order for them to be able to be held accountable or wouldn't have tax exemptions, the current data centers that exist in our state right now receive hundreds and thousands of dollars in tax exemptions and do not have to pay a sales and use tax.

1:08:48The people of Wisconsin deserve to have community say and community control. That means ensuring that no utility costs go up, that we have regulations in place to hold polluters accountable, and that we aren't foxconned again, giving away billions of dollars in subsidies while creating very few new jobs and destroying a community in what they're able to do with their own property taxes and being able to grow their community. We should be able to have a say in making sure that big tech knows we're not here to sell out our natural resources, and we're not selling out our state to big tech. Do you see the moratorium being lifted after a year?

1:09:24Under what conditions would you lift it? The big part is the regulations to make sure that we're holding those polluters accountable, that we aren't raising rates for utilities, and that the Public Service Commission and people who are approving these different projects are actually, we hold the folks who are going to be responsible in thinking about what the public good is instead of people who may be taking money from the utility companies appointed to those positions. I think it's important that we establish local control, but that there are statewide guidelines in having no tax exemptions and ensuring that data centers actually have to pay their own way and up front if they're going to build in Wisconsin.

1:10:04The last primary debate was pretty friendly with you and your primary opponents. And for people who are going to vote soon and they're wondering if they're trying to decide between you and David Crowley, who's your leading opponent in the primary right now, what's one place where the two of you disagree? We disagree on the moratorium on data centers. We disagree on ending the voucher program. I believe that public dollars should stay in public schools. We disagree on how much to tax millionaires and billionaires to ensure that we have enough revenue to invest in the things that Wisconsinites care about, like child care, like paid leave, like public schools.

1:10:43And we disagree in how much we should be spending on removing or how much of the tax exemptions and corporate loopholes that we should be eliminating. Fortunately, Charlie has not been clear on which ones, which policies that he supports. So I hear you on the voucher program, like taking money away from public education. This happens all across the country. You know, there is a program now. There are about 30 ,000 kids in Milwaukee who are in that program. Their families are income capped. What does winding the program down mean for them? And what happens to those kids? What year does it end? Right now, it's important to establish accountability and transparency and educating folks about where their property taxes go.

1:11:26We have a bill that's ready that would include a property tax report. How much of those tax dollars are actually going to private schools? With the Milwaukee Schools Voucher Program, that would be the last voucher program that we would phase out. And I believe it's important for folks to know that families actually can receive a tax credit for private school tuition. But right now, administration of that voucher program is costing our state over$1.2 billion. dollars. And so sunsetting that program for Milwaukee, for us, we're looking at at least the next second or third session. So that would be around 2030.

1:12:05But again, we want to make sure NPS is a partner with us and that the families who are in the program, that the education is not disrupted. And even when we put the caps on it, that doesn't mean that any of the students who are enrolled in vouchers now would have learning disruptions. So you're running as a democratic socialist. A couple of people have pointed that out. A few weeks ago, Marquette asked Wisconsin voters how they felt about that label. 54 % of Democrats have a favorable view, especially younger ones. But when it comes to independents, only 13 % have a favorable view. 52 % have an unfavorable view of democratic socialists.

1:12:46What is your plan for those voters who you'll obviously need to win? Do you want to persuade them to change their mind about democratic socialism? Or do you want to persuade them that the label doesn't matter? I want to tell them what other Wisconsinites have told me, that it is about the solutions and not just the labels and the solutions that we are presenting that actually meet the moment to solve the problem, that the system is rigged against working class people. And I will always put working class people first, That fighting to fully fund our public schools, have free childcare, affordable housing, and fair, cheaper healthcare looks like having someone who also understands the struggle right now.

1:13:25I'm the only wage worker, only single mom. I'm a renter and I've worked in the legislature for the last six years, but I'm a public servant first. And I learned that from opening a business and running a restaurant as well as being a wage worker right now. And so I think this is a lot about listening to voters and letting them know more about our solutions and ensuring them that I'm not here to expand a brand. I'm here to make sure that Wisconsinites get what they deserve. What is the best case for your candidacy that has nothing to do with any of what we just discussed? What else would you what other pitch would you like to make?

1:13:59Since we've launched our campaign, we've learned that Wisconsinites all across our state, regardless of generation, race, faith, ethnicity, are tired and they're stressed and they're frustrated. And when we talk about building a movement and transformative change, that we can have a state that invests in our communities, that raises wages and ensures that we're caring and protecting one another. We have now grown our movement to over 7 ,000 people who have volunteered for our campaign, hit over 110 ,000 doors, that this is a multi-generational coalition. And what's most excited is the support that's coming from younger voters, first-time voters, or people who have not voted in elections for the last six, seven years.

1:14:44I think people deserve to have a candidate that they believe in and that they know is not only just fighting for them, but fighting alongside them. Francesca Hong, thank you so much for joining Pod Save America, and good luck in this last week. Thank you so much. Take care. Take care.

1:15:06That's our show for today. Thanks to Francesca Hong for coming on. We'll be back with a new episode on Friday. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Faris Safari with Reed Cherlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hethcote, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, Kirill Pellaviv, David Tolles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

1:15:31Jon Favreau:Hey, it's Tommy from Pod Save America and Pod Save the World. Last year, 2 ,500 people joined us at Crooked Con for conversations with some of the smartest organizers, least annoying politicians, and most interesting voices in politics to talk about how to fix this mess. Even President Obama made a surprise appearance. We're doing it all again November 5th to 7th in Washington, D.C., with even more podcasts, panels, and workshops. Plus, there'll be drinks, which we'll need after the midterms, no matter which way they go. Get tickets at CrookedCon.com. If you're a friend of the pod, you get a discount, too.

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