The Gospel According to Trump

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30:03So the war that the president and the Pope are fighting about is still very much unresolved, despite Trump's repeated claims to the contrary. The U.S. is still blockading Iran's ports. Iran is still controlling the Strait of Hormuz. And we learned on Thursday morning that because the U.S. and Iran are still far apart on minor issues like the fate of Iran's nuclear program. The dust. Who has the dust? The dust. The two sides are looking at a short-term agreement before the ceasefire expires on Tuesday that would allow for more traffic to get through the Strait of Hormuz in exchange, potentially for unfreezing some Iranian assets.

30:35In better news, however, Israel has agreed to a 10-day ceasefire in Lebanon, which just went into effect right as we started recording. So hopefully that holds. Trump was asked about all of this Thursday morning. and gave his usual set of confusing and somewhat contradictory answers. Let's listen. We're doing extending the ceasefire with Iran. With who? With Iran. We're doing very well, I can tell you. Maybe it'll happen before that. I'm not sure it needs to be extended. Iran wants to make a deal, and we're dealing very nicely with them. They've agreed to give us back the nuclear dust that's way underground.

31:10The blockade has been incredible. It's been it's held and they're not doing any business. They're unable to do any business because of the blockade. Everything is gone, including their leaders. Now they have a new set of leaders and we find them very reasonable. There's no deal. Fight or resume. No deal. Fighting will resume. 10 ,000 more American troops are headed to the region right now on top of the 50 ,000 already there. So like it is really I found it more difficult today to figure out what the hell is going on than even most days, because you get all this reporting that like they gave up on the big deal.

31:45Now they're trying to get a smaller deal and a ceasefire because the ceasefire expires on Tuesday. And then Trump's out there being like, we're close. We're close to a big deal. And I think I'll fly to Pakistan, to Islamabad if there's a deal. And talks could resume this weekend. And you're like, well, doesn't someone have to get on a plane to Pakistan if talks are resuming this weekend? Like, I have no idea what's going on. But do you think from a political standpoint, at least, that Trump is succeeding in pretending that we've already won this thing just to try to get it out of the headlines or at least stop it from being a major topic in the midterms, which obviously it still will be if gas prices are high?

32:23But what do you think? Yeah. So let's talk about what Trump's actually trying to do here other than just vomit up words that make no sense. To the extent there is a strategy, it is he wants this war to be over. He wants the Strait of Hormuz open. and he wants to do that without admitting defeat. He wants a win of some kind. And getting the dust would be a win, getting some sort of agreement. Now, they clearly are, and he wants to keep sounding optimistic because that's the best way to keep the markets on board. The stock market, not the oil market. The oil market doesn't really give a shit what Trump says.

32:59It really matters what's going to happen over the medium term and the long term here. But he's just trying to manage the stock market. the problem is, is that all of that runs into reality at some point. And at some point you recognize that we have very little leverage in these discussions. They control the straight. We are unwilling or unable to do the things it would take to open the straight. Iran could also start messing with other waterways. Like all of a sudden the Houthis could get involved in the Red Sea and then we have huge problems. And so all, but all of, none of that matters in the end.

33:35And I think if you want to get to the political part of this, which is I think the most damage, long term damage has already been done to Trump, which is he is a guy who said he wasn't going to start wars and how he started wars. So that's part one of the damage. The second part is there's always a moment in these presidents where voters have real questions, but they swallowed those questions when they voted for him. And one is that Trump's kind of a nut like and he's he's erratic. He's rash. he doesn't really pay attention to what's going on and the cut and we skated through without that being a huge problem in his first term until the pandemic hit and then here like this is what everyone warned about with trump it's a little bit like this is what katrina this the red war is to trump what katrina was to bush politically which was we knew the guy was kind of a knucklehead right and here's what here it is we see the the cost of it.

34:30You're seeing the cost of it here. COVID was like that too. Yeah, COVID was, except people did not blame Trump for COVID. We see that, right? And people who really paid attention see the mistakes they made with the public never held Trump accountable for COVID, which is why he almost won re-election because of it. Yeah. I think the public definitely didn't hold him responsible for the economic impacts of COVID. I think that the way he handled that first year up until the November of 2020, I think it probably hurt him. I mean, it's why he lost. That's why he lost. But it's on the like he's still lost by whatever was 50 ,000 votes.

35:06So, yeah, not enough. You know, whether gas prices come down or not, prices are going to be higher than they were before. Any hope of some sort of economic miracle before the midterms that would put some wind in the sales of Republicans, that is gone now. That just simply cannot happen. Because if gas prices, as far as anyone can tell, are not going to be lower than they were when he started this war, even if they're not at$4 a gallon come November. Yeah. I was trying to think, I'm like, because, you know, if the Iranians decide that even though they control the Strait of Hormuz, that their economy has been badly damaged, their infrastructure has been damaged, they've, you know, would they want to make a deal?

35:46The only kind of deal I could see the making ends up looking a lot like the Obama's Iran deal, the JCPOA, right? Like they're already talking about, you know, that the U.S. is saying, OK, maybe we'll do 20 years of no nuclear activity. And then Iran says five. And then if they end up at 10, 10 is exactly what the Obama's Iran deal is. And you could imagine some kind of a deal that Trump decides to present as like the greatest deal on earth. And then when you look into the details, it is like strikingly similar to the 2015 JCPOA, in which case, you know, I think that like, I guess that he'll take that as a win and act like it's the greatest deal and then he should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

36:35But then it sort of begs the question, well, Obama got that through diplomacy and you got that through upending the global economy and killing a bunch of people and depleting a lot of our munitions and sending our military into battle and losing 13 American lives, 15 American lives. I do not think the public will give him one ounce of credit. Yeah, no. No, I don't think so. I think he'll take the credit, but yeah, they won't. Yeah. I don't think the public will either. But it'll be like, you know, I think the Republicans who were sort of wavering, they'll all get back on side and then we'll be off to the next thing.

37:09You think the voters or the Republican elites? I think Republican elites and then I think Republican voters who were mostly on board anyway but i think that the ones he lost we'll see we'll see yeah i mean it like he really is only lost four points in overall approval rating since this war started so even getting even if we were to get that every single one of those people back he gets them to back up to 42 and i will say this is this would be the best case scenario for him right and by the way it's the best case scenario for everyone right like if there's a deal that's that's wonderful and the straight opens and we've somehow put new restrictions on their nuclear program like great it's I mean awful that this happened but of all the outcomes ahead of us because if there is no deal he keeps saying oh then the fighting will resume Hegseth talked about at the briefing today yeah well we still we're still threatening the power plants and the bridges like they can go right back to where we were when it was bridge and power plant day and he was threatening war crimes so that would be fucking awful but who knows it's like to what end like that hasn't because you can destroy all those things like I mean Tommy I'm talking about this all the time but what iran cares about is the people in charge care about staying in power and they're in power right even and they're not going to get vote they are not concerned about the impact of destroyed power plants on the generic ballot no like that it's not that's not there they just they can wait this out forever yeah uh speaking of the midterms uh the trump affordability tour continues took a little break it's back on now uh to celebrate tax week it was tax day this week uh trump went to las Vegas on Thursday for a tried and true roundtable, plus remarks promoting his no tax on tips policy and broader tax relief, he claims, were delivered by the big, beautiful bill.

38:45The event happened after we recorded this, but he did take a bunch of questions about affordability on the South Lawn as he left for the trip. Let's take a listen. How much longer will Americans continue to see these high gas prices? Well, they're not very high. If you look at what they were supposed to be in order to get rid of a nuclear weapon with the danger that entails. So the gas prices have come down very much over the last three four days i know you know and that's what abc says but the fact is that uh if you look at the stock markets up everything's doing really well you just can't do it you can't oh yeah abc says that gas prices are high okay sure abc says it or you could just go to your fucking gas station and look up yeah the one thing you're not pulling the wool over people's eyes is gas prices the one thing that is advertised on every highway exit in America.

39:36And look, everyone knows what gas prices are supposed to be when you try to get rid of nuclear weapons, when you try to fight the nuclear. What is he saying? Is he saying imagine how high gas prices would be if we had a - I think everything is like, I did better than I was supposed to do. Either I did something amazing, or if he knows he's in trouble, well, what I did is better than what it was supposed to be. Like, it doesn't make any sense. But he's trying to make the argument that, like, actually, the stock market was supposed to be worse and gas prices were supposed to be higher and more people were supposed to be dead.

40:12And look, look what I did. It's not so bad. I saved us. The country would be destroyed without me. It's like he's walking up to the line of saying, yes, gas prices are high. That sucks. But it is a price, a sacrifice we all have to make to prevent Iran from posing an existential threat to the United States. Yeah, but he can't. Like, that's the honest answer. but he's incapable. I mean, no one would, that's not a, that's not a deal anyone would sign up for. No, but that, but that, which he knows. Yeah. But he like, can't say it. So he has to say, there is this very important thing we're doing, but also gas prices are very low.

40:45And if someone tells you they're not, it's because they're fake news. So obviously Trump has stepped all over, uh, his affordability coverage by, uh, continuing his fight with, uh, God's emissary here on earth. But question for you, is it clear that a day of coverage about the big, beautiful bill, the tax law, no tax on tips, affordability, bragging about low gas prices would have been better for him? This is the line you hear all the time from the Republicans, right? Whether it's Susie Wiles and James Blair in the White House or the Republicans on Capitol Hill, all the operatives working on the campaign superfaxes, we need Trump to get back to the economic message.

41:20I'm just not convinced that that would work for a couple of reasons. One, Trump's incapable. He is psychologically incapable of delivering what would be the most effective economic message. He just can't do it. He cannot say what he's doing to lower prices because he can't admit the prices are high. Like that is the fundamental problem there. The second problem is, is that this is not Trump of 2016, Trump of 2020, or even Trump of 2024. This is a man who is 20 points underwater on the economy and 30 points underwater on inflation. He is not a trusted messenger. The efficacy of any message is intrinsically tied to the credibility of the messenger.

41:57And so Trump talking about the economy when people thought he was good on the economy was helpful. Trump talking about the economy right now is nothing but noise to most voters because they do not trust him. Yeah, and this whole thing about the tax bill and no tax on tips and Republicans will say, oh, well, this part's popular and that part's popular. But the fact of the matter is the increase in gas prices, persistent inflation has completely wiped away any gains anyone received from tax cuts, middle class tax cuts, to the extent there were middle class tax cuts in the big, beautiful bill, like no tax on tips.

42:33And I think there was a story in The New York Times about someone who was like, yeah, you know, I usually get a$350 refund and I got like a thousand dollars or so this year. But also way fewer people are coming to my business to to buy things because it's just it's tougher out there. And so I don't think he gets any credit for this. And you're right. Instead of instead of talking about it as, hey, we made a down payment and we we helped you out a little bit. but we need more Republicans in Congress to pass bigger tax relief or to do this. You know, like he's incapable of doing that. All he can do is be like, and I solved everything and everyone's rich now and gas prices aren't bad.

43:10And the fake news media is telling you your life's bad, but everything's great. Like that's the only that's the only speed he has. I am just skeptical that when push comes to shove, the major Republican campaigns or the Republican super PACs are going to spend a lot of money touting the big, beautiful bill on TV and digital. They're going to spend all of their money trying to attack the Democrats on immigration, crime, cultural issues, etc., to try to disqualify them. Because that is the only chance they have is that there are enough swing voters, soft Republicans, independents who are skeptical of Democrats that it might help tamp down their losses.

43:47But this idea that we are one affordability tour away from a Republican resurgence is absurd. Trump does seem like he's coming to grips with all of this, with how poorly the midterms are going. Here he is working through it on Wednesday with Maria Bartiromo on Fox Business. Do you expect the Republicans to lose seats in the House? And what does that mean for your agenda? When somebody gets elected president, that party always loses the midterms. I don't know why. I don't know why. Nobody could explain it. I ask people that are deep into the psychological world. I said, why is it that a voter votes for the opposite party?

44:23Even when you have a good president, I think I had the greatest year. Dear, hello, people deep in the psychological world. Why is it? It's Dr. Phil. It's Dr. Phil. It's definitely Dr. Phil. Someone said Dr. Oz to me. I'm a different kind of doctor, but yes. Yeah, you're deep in the psychological world. Why is it that someone votes against a great president like me? There are so many public science, public science professors right now who are like jumping through their phones to try to explain thermostatic public opinion to Trump. Trump discovers thermostatic public opinion. There it is. There it is.

44:57Unsurprisingly, Trump's fellow Republicans are starting to get nervous that Trump isn't exactly locked in message-wise. Here's Tuesday's Politico headline. Republicans worry White House nonsense is hurting midterm prospects. It also includes a quote from Brian Lanza, who was a senior advisor to Trump's 2024 campaign. He said the road to victory runs through a consistent economic message. Unfortunately, President Trump ignores the roadmap. No shit. Any takeaways from the Politico piece? It is interesting that because you don't see this that often, which is this is kind of a tradition in midterms where the folks on the Hill start to blame the White House this far out.

45:36And so all of a sudden you got a lot of very brave Republican operatives unwilling to put their names on things to start saying this is the White House's fault. But they are correct. that, look, if Trump was executing his political and message strategy perfectly, the Republicans would still be kind of fucked here. Like, it is Trump's second midterm. Prices are high. There's a war in the Middle East. But Trump is doing nothing to help them. And they're just like, he's doing nothing strategically to help them. He's not doing a lot tactically to help them. Let's not forget, we are now, you know, a month away from the Texas runoff, and Trump has not endorsed the chosen candidate of the NRSC yet.

46:12Wild. Like there are things he could be doing to help and he is not helping. And they are unfocused on everything. And that hurts them on the margins. Right. Right. Like the problem, I mean, the real thing, like the nonsense hurts on the margins. Tariffs and a war in Iran, that really hurts. And that's the stuff that really matters here. There's a lot of focus on like Trump's going off the cuff again and not on the roadmap. And it's like, well, the war he started and the tariffs and the gas. Yeah. Yeah, like that's the, it's not a communication problem. Yeah, it's just he's not even trying to make things better and he makes them worse when he opens his mouth.

46:49It doesn't seem to care that much about what's going to happen.

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48:48Vance. Orban was defeated by Peter Madyar, a conservative pro-EU former ally who turned against Orban and his party in 2024. Madyar campaigned aggressively on battling corruption and dismantling the media and political machine Orban had built. He drove this home in a viral appearance on pro-Orban state television this week, which he said had blacklisted him until now, where he told the pro-Orban presenter that he'll be working to revive independent media and that their work on the network would have made Goebbels and Kim Jong-un, quote, lick their lips. This is wild. I've been looking at his Twitter feed and um he's just like it's it's it's quite a victory lap here he's he he posted uh to the fides leaders that's the the orban's party i say this no matter how much you pretend that nothing has happened we know what you have done to our homeland and to the hungarian people do not doubt for a moment you reap what you sow um he also said that one of the first he he sort of tweeted the picture of him um at the appearance on the state television and he said one of the first measures of his government will be the immediate suspension of the public media's news services until all conditions for impartial and objective journalism are fully restored, and that he'll ensure press freedom, abolish censorship, and eliminate prohibited state subsidies.

50:13Then he also, he went to meet with the president of Hungary. The president is more of a ceremonial role than the prime minister there, but this was like an Orban guy. And so he posts a picture of him meeting with the president and then he said um i have arrived at the palace to meet the president he's unworthy of representing the unity of the hungarian nation he's unfit to serve as the guardian of legality he is not fit to serve as a moral authority or role model following the formation of the new government he must leave office immediately and it's just like a picture of the two of the meeting like it's great but i love it it made me think about fantasize about what would happen if a Democrat comes to power in 2028.

50:59But I do wonder if you think there's any lessons for the pro-democracy coalition in this country on sort of both how to take down a corrupt dictator and also what to do if we win. So let's talk about the what to do if we win. Because the victory against Orban was years and years in the making and a resistance that was operating under much worse conditions than we are in the United States. We do not have state-controlled media here yet. And one way you can avoid that is by subscribing to our friends of the pod at cricket.com slash friends. Organic mention. Exactly. Somewhere, Elijah will be cheering.

51:44I think the lesson for us is in response, which is you simply cannot turn the other cheek to fascism. You cannot – and we learned this lesson. This is essentially what Biden wanted to do. It's what Merrick Garland wanted to do until he was bullied into actually trying to uphold the law by the January 6th hearings in Congress. And there's going to be a massive project to dig out, root and branch all of the corruption and the corrupt that Trump has put in our government and to hold them accountable. And this is going to be hard because Trump is probably going to pardon all of them. Yeah. And so we're going to have to.

52:26We didn't talk about the Wall Street Journal story from last week, I think, where Trump has reported as saying in meetings that he's going to pardon everyone who's come within 200 feet of the Oval Office that works in the federal government. Yeah. And that and it's just putting a pin on that is worth noting that the Supreme Court gave Trump immunity to commit crimes. And that Trump now is now given his staff immunity to help him commit those crimes. Yep. But we have to – if you can't prosecute those people because of pardons, you have to call them out publicly. There has to be accountability hearings.

52:55They have to be named in shame. They have to be removed from their positions. We have to be tough with the people – with the law firms, the corporations, everyone else, the media companies who essentially engage in legalized bribery to try to win favor with Trump, the ones who are spending money on his ballroom, who are changing the programming at networks in order to appease them. you have like, and I think those people should know now, and I hope the Democrats talk about this, know now that those consequences are coming, right? There is at least a 50 % chance that a Democrat is going to be president in 2029.

53:29And what you do now is something that person is not going to forget. My head hurts thinking about the battle to come within the Democratic Party about this, because I would bet you that a lot of the pollsters and the strategists will say, people that we know, will say voters just elected ex-Democrat to focus on affordability and that's why they won and they have to make sure they bring costs down and they have to be laser-like focused on people's lives and their struggles and we can't be spending all this time on hearings looking back because then voters are going to say, I elected you to do something to improve my life and all you're doing now is attacking Trump and Trump officials and looking backwards.

54:19And we have to look forward as a party. And so the strategists will say that. And then everyone else will yell at them. And it may not be even after we win. It'll probably be a fight during the 2028 primary, I bet. I don't think it'll be a fight during the primary. I think they're going to be one-upping each other. Yeah, that's true. Like by the third debate, someone's going to be promising stoning in the public square live streaming of these officials. And look, we know this because there was a lot of pressure on Obama to prosecute the Bush people for torture. And that was a choice that Obama Department of Justice did not make.

54:56And the arguments were exactly that, was that people wanted to turn the page. The issue here is that this is not a short-term political decision. This is a long-term decision related to the preservation of democracy, where that if you allow people to understand that raiding our government and breaking laws for the consolidation of power is something that has no consequences, and that will happen time again. And we will just be ping-ponging back and forth between democracy and being on the cusp of fascism every couple of election cycles, and that cannot happen. I've thought about this. Here's what I would advise, which is taking a page out of the Trump playbook and Steve Bannon's sort of flood the zone strategy.

55:37I think you do it all. You do as much as possible in like the first couple of weeks while you're still in the honeymoon phase. And you've got like I saw that picture of him with the president's like you go to the FBI, Cash Patel, you're fucking out. Right. Because the FBI director is supposed to have a 10 year, 10 year term. No way, obviously, Cash Patel is going to stay there. And Brendan Carr, right, FCC chairman, like all these people that are supposedly in the old world had terms that lasted through different presidencies. you got to clear them all out basically every trump appointee every person trump hired i think you got to clear out of the federal government within like the first week and because the whole prosecution thing is like you know right do people get pardons then it's like can states do it and the federal government doesn't control the state so like that kind of stuff you got to just be careful about i think um and you can't have it you can't have it be dragging on for two years but i do think you got to act fast in those first in that like first month to sort of and and talk about it as rooting out corruption, right?

56:36And like you said, it is probably even more important to do it as substance than to do it as, I mean, the substance sends a message, but it's not like, like, you just got to actually do the work behind the scenes to like root out, like, you know, de-Trumpify the entire government. And if you're doing it all at once, then that's probably even better because then they'll all bitch about it and scream and it'll be some stories like, or is so-and-so looking backwards, but then it'll go away after a month or two, and then you're off to your agenda. My hope is that this is a big part of the Project 2029s.

57:09It's not just like who should be our undersecretary of whatever and what our global warming executive orders are. It is like, how do we solve this problem? And what is the playbook for doing that? And one thing that a Democratic majority in Congress can do is they can use their investigative power to get the information now to have it and be able to hand it to the next Democratic press or the next Democratic attorney general on day one. If any of these people you can be prosecuted, do that, but then also for the purposes of rooting the people out, holding them accountable publicly, all of the above.

57:42Yeah. And you got to have a good forward-looking perspective anti-corruption agenda and put some reforms in place so that you can show people that this isn't going to happen again because we're actually going to put in laws instead of just having norms this time. Last thing before we get to Tommy's interview with Peggy Flanagan, RFK Jr. testified in Congress Thursday for the first time this year during a pair of hearings. He's apparently doing seven altogether, where Democrats grilled him on cutting health programs like Medicaid and nutrition for women and infants, his anti-vax policies in the midst of a measles outbreak.

58:12And according to Representative Linda Sanchez, quote, spending taxpayer dollars to drink milk shirtless in a hot tub with Kid Rock. It is what happened. He did put the video out himself. What he wasn't asked about, however, is a new biography about him written by New York Post reporter Isabel Vincent, which contains the following excerpt from RFK Jr.'s private journal written between 1999-2001. Quote, I was standing in front of my parked car on I-684, cutting the penis out of a road-killed raccoon, thinking about how weird some of my family members have turned out to be. Thankfully, even though RFK Jr.

58:57wasn't pressed on the raccoon penis during his testimony, TMZ's new DC operation was on hand to bring us this. Secretary, what did you do with the raccoon's dead penis? Where is it now? Where's the penis now? bear cubs whale carcasses and raccoon penises oh my

59:19can i give people a little behind the scenes here yes before we do the our first editorial meeting uh we kind of jot out what the contours of the show might be and we always call the last thing here that's a little bit of fun we call it dessert and all the idea it said dessert colon raccoon penis. Which is, it could be literal for RFK Jr. Yeah, we don't, he has refused to answer questions about whether he ate the raccoon penis. No, he's apparently going to study it later. This guy is fucking, I can't remember. For what? Exactly. This is our, this is our health secretary, our health and human services secretary.

59:55I was, I was hoping when you were, dead raccoon penis in his pocket. I know you were traveling. Or is he happy to see you? Is that a dead raccoon penis in your pocket are you happy to see me? I got to say, when I woke up and saw that you said dessert for a raccoon penis, I was a little disappointed because I know you were traveling yesterday and I was hoping that maybe you had, why would you have missed it? You don't miss anything. But I was hoping that maybe you had missed the story and I could surprise you with raccoon penis. Yeah, no, I really saw it this morning. So you got my initial reaction was, oh, look, dessert, raccoon penis.

1:00:28Anyway, he didn't have a lot of good answers about everything else that he's fucked up as health and human services secretary. Like, why did you cancel pro vaccine messaging public service announcements in the middle of a measles outbreak? And then he tried to say, well, we're doing better than other countries. And then the representative pointed out, no, we're actually not that the incidence of measles has risen here in the last two years faster than anywhere else on earth. So thank you, RFK Jr., for all that you're doing for health. But I hope you're hope you're studying hard. and just on i don't know sorry you're look look i didn't even try to i mean look he has he has an agenda his agenda is a dead raccoon penis in every pot again dumped the bear cub in the park after a botched attempt to skin it that's one um decapitated the whale carcass cutting off the raccoon penis while thinking to himself boy have my family members turned out pretty weird yeah those are all plot points in a Netflix serial killer documentary.

1:01:30Yeah, well, there you go. All right. When we come back, poor Peggy Flanagan. What an intro. But when we come back, Tommy talks to Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota, Peggy Flanagan.

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1:03:35Jon Favreau:My guest today is Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota and running to fill Senator Tina Smith's U.S. Senate seat. Peggy Flanagan, great to meet you. Thanks so much for having me. So you're running in a primary. We've extended an invitation to your opponent, Representative Craig. So we'll double back with listeners when that happens. So I want to start with some national stuff, some Senate-specific stuff, and then dig into some Minnesota-focused questions, if that's cool. A lot of grassroots voters, a lot of Democrats feel like Democrats in Congress are not fighting hard enough against the Trump administration.

1:04:09Jon Favreau:I'm sure you hear this all the time. The pushback you hear from the House side is like, hey, we have no power. I think the senators would probably say, you know, we just shut down the government for like 40 plus days last year. DHS is shut down now. Maybe that's a lot of fighting back in their book. Where do you stand on this debate? Are they fighting hard enough? Well, I think what I'm hearing from folks as we're traveling across the state is that people are sick and tired of Democrats fighting from a defensive crouch or governing by sternly worded letter is something we hear a lot about. And I think fighting back can take on a lot of different tactics.

1:04:47I think Senate Democrats leading on the shutdown really mattered, right, especially after what we saw in the state of Minnesota. with ICE, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit more. But I also think it means being in the community, listening directly to people about how they are experiencing the Trump administration, what they want you to fight for when you're there, but also using your platform and then getting out into the streets. I think that also matters, right? We had over 50 ,000 people marching in downtown Minneapolis to show solidarity, but also to speak up. So there are lots of tools in our toolbox.

1:05:33But I just think people want to know that you're there for them, that you're fighting for them. And especially right now when we see the influence of corporate PAC money, billionaires who have probably the biggest seat at the table in our politics. I think regular folks just want to be heard and want to know that when Dems come back into power, they are going to throw down on behalf of the American people.

1:05:59Jon Favreau:Yeah, I definitely want to ask you a lot about the ICE and CBP occupation of lots of Minnesota and how inspiring the response was. But a couple more things. So, you know, another flashpoint I think you hear with the left and center, I mean, a lot of places, is whether Chuck Schumer should continue to be the leader of the Democrats, whether Senate minority leader or hopefully Senate majority leader. Do you support Schumer's keeping that job? I'll say this. I feel the same way about Chuck Schumer that he feels about me. Uncommitted. What does uncommitted mean? Because I've heard you say that before.

1:06:35Jon Favreau:I think we should have a vote. So is this Minnesota nice saying no? This is Minnesota nice, but it's saying I think we need a progressive champion to lead the Senate Democrats. And I think there's an example of a lot of leaders who are part of the group called the Fight Club. I'm sure you've heard of this group, right? The number one rule of Fight Club is that we're not supposed to talk about it, but right, we're going to talk about it. So that's Senators Warren Smith, Sanders, Heinrich, Markey, Merkley, and, you know, this group and Van Hollen. And this group of folks, I think, are pushing back and are not part of the Democratic establishment and are really looking for those progressive fighters.

1:07:22I think that's what we need. And I think that's what we're hearing from folks all across the country who are ready, are ready for more. And, you know, so am I.

1:07:34Jon Favreau:It's interesting to hear you say, you know, focus on sort of the policy argument, because I think the other argument you hear generational. Yeah. And there's, I think, ongoing frustration that we had this long sort of tortured discussion about Joe Biden's age and voters, I think, pretty resoundingly told us he was too old for another term. And yet the lessons learned have not translated to the Senate. Do you think there should be an age limit or term limits for the Senate? I think what we need are progressive fighters. And I think there are folks of all different ages who who can take on that role.

1:08:13But what I'll also say is, you know, we don't have enough moms with kids under the age 18 serving in the Senate. There's only four. And boy, can you tell by the kind of, you know, lack of policy. that have to do with, you know, paid family medical leave, child care, making sure that, you know, kids have access to health insurance.

1:08:37Jon Favreau:They don't know who Miss Rachel is. They don't know who Miss Rachel is. That matters. Absolutely. I mean, and if you haven't been moved by an episode of Bluey, what are you doing serving in the Senate? No, I, but I think, I think that that matters that our elected officials accurately reflect the communities they seek to represent, Right. And so I think it matters that we have more young people who are serving in the Senate. I am not running to make history, but I think it matters that, you know, we can elect the first Native American woman ever to serve in the U.S. Senate. That's healthy for democracy and it's good.

1:09:12And I think now as we're seeing these primary races across the country, that's good for us. It is good for the party. It's good for democracy overall. And having people feel excited and engaged about politics, that's something we should all want right now, especially as we've got Donald Trump in the White House every day. I mean, great. Yeah. Just yes. Just doing really. And this is my Minnesotan coming out. Really interesting things. Right. Interesting Donalds.

1:09:49Jon Favreau:Crypto is interesting. Yeah, that's right. I mean, and I just think it's an exciting time for our party if we choose, right, to lean into that excitement and not, you know, get caught up with the status quo. We are seeing it everywhere that people are demanding more. They want more. They want folks who understand what it's like to try to stretch 20 bucks through the end of the month. And frankly, I think if we had more people in the Senate who knew what that was like, we wouldn't have passed this big, ugly bill. So this is our opportunity. And I think we can reinvigorate the U.S. Senate and the Democrats who serve there.

1:10:33Jon Favreau:You could certainly use some invigoration. After Watergate, after Nixon, there was a wave of government reform. It was just we didn't just, you know, that scandal didn't just take down the president, but it led to this like fundamental reshaping of American politics because people woke up and said, oh, that was bad. Let's not do that again. Do you have a vision for what a post-Trump set of reforms could or should look like that the Senate should be hopefully working on right now? We'll say a couple of things. I think there are too many folks who think, oh, once Trump's out of office, somehow everything will be OK.

1:11:09Jon Favreau:We learned that one the hard way. Right. Absolutely. And we'll go back to, you know, sunshine and rainbows. We have to be, I think, very clear about what the consequences need to be for Donald Trump and for folks in his administration. Right. Investigations, criminal charges, what we have been through in Minnesota, there has to be some kind of reckoning. We also have seen as Donald Trump, you know, one of his first moves once he got back into office was getting rid of 17 inspectors general. Right. And the very people who police fraud. He has enriched himself. He has enriched his family. I think one of the biggest things we need to do is make sure that you can't get rich off of serving in public office.

1:12:01Jon Favreau:You're not going to bet on whether we're going to depose dictators in Venezuela and stuff on Calci? I mean, it's not my thing. I think Calci is another interesting thing that exists. And we shouldn't be betting on our politics. No. But I would say, you know, holding these folks accountable, making sure that you can't enrich yourself. And then I think we have to look at reforms around the Supreme Court as well. And just people have to trust the government again. And when I think about the opportunity to get in there, I think we will take back the House. I think we have a real opportunity to take back the Senate.

1:12:43And then everyone has to be really clear what their job is, right? You got to be in role. So what is this senator working on? What is this senator working on? How are we building a base of support for the reforms, for the policies that we want to move so that once we get a new president in there, God willing, in 2028, thanks for knocking on wood, that we are then ready to go and rebuild because what we watched Elon Musk and, you know, his doge bros do to this government, we have to rebuild and we have to do so with a lot of intention. So it is pushing for the policies that Americans want to be able to afford their lives and making sure that this authoritarianism that is just galloped into the White House and into Washington can never happen again.

1:13:40Jon Favreau:Yeah. Do you think Democrats should get rid of the filibuster? Oh, this is the tricky one, right? Because right now it's pretty helpful. But yes, I do, because there are so many things that have gotten, you know, stopped, right? Good stuff, Right. And I don't want, you know, Kyrsten Sinema or Joe Manchin ask people to be able to stop progress because they're, you know, bought and paid for by big corporations. Mitch McConnell. Yeah. What about the party saying as a party, we're not going to take corporate PAC money. We're not going to take lobbyist money. Is that naive? Is that dooming ourselves to being outspent in every election?

1:14:20Jon Favreau:Like what kind of campaign finance reforms do you think are appropriate? I mean, I think the fact that corporate PACs and billionaires are running the show in Washington is a fantastic reason why we shouldn't take that money. I mean, for me personally, I have made that decision in my campaign, and I think it really matters. It mattered a lot for Obama in 07, I think. Yeah, I mean. Really did. It was a differentiator. Well, because people get it, right? Like people understand it. And let me tell you, like, I knew the corporations had a lot of power in Washington. It wasn't until I ran for Senate that I actually understood just how much.

1:15:06And so –

1:15:07Jon Favreau:Well, how did you – what did you learn in that process that kind of gave you that new window? I mean, it's just looking at how folks are like, oh, well, that's too much, right? Or when you say, like, I'm for Medicare for all. Right. People are like, oh, but there's so many folks and, you know, the health insurance industry. And there are people, a librarian in Cambie, Minnesota, who's paying a sixteen thousand dollar deductible and just paid five bucks or sorry, five hundred bucks for a five minute med check. Right. Like that's that's real. And so I just think that this is a route of why we are where we are.

1:15:52That big corporations, billionaires have their thumb on the scale in our politics in a real way. And what I would say is that I think this is the biggest contrast between myself and my primary opponent, Congresswoman Craig. This is where, you know, big oil, crypto, big pharma, APAC is, you know, they're all going to come in to this race. And for me, I can sleep at night because I'm not beholden to anybody but Minnesotans and I have integrity. But we also see in the Democratic Party as a whole, we should be the folks who are fighting to protect the environment, not taking money from big oil. We should be the folks who are anti-war, right?

1:16:41Not snuggling up, you know, to AIPAC, who is A-OK with this war in Iran and what we see happening in Lebanon and Gaza and the majority of Americans oppose it. And when we see these big corporations and corporate interests who are keeping people who are making incredibly low-wage jobs who are struggling, Democrats should be the folks who are fighting against that, not saying please contribute to our campaigns. Because I think, you know, it's Tommy, what you just said, like people get it. You know, it's pretty disingenuous to say, you know, I'm going to, you know, regulate corporate, you know, cryptocurrency on one hand and then have your other hand outstretched and be like, but also wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

1:17:31If you could pay for my campaign, that would be great. People are so much smarter than that. And so that, you know, and I think that's coming for us, right? What we saw in the state of Illinois in their primary that they just had, my friend and my sister, fellow lieutenant governor, Julianna Stratton, crypto spent$10 million in that race. Yes, AIPAC spent millions, right? And I know that they're going to come into Minnesota too. But what I also know is that people are starting to understand why this matters, right? I've been endorsed by N Citizens United in this race. And I think the best way to get big money out of our politics is to demonstrate that you can run powerful grassroots campaigns that are about the many and not the money, and you can still win.

1:18:23Jon Favreau:You mentioned AIPAC and the big fight in the Democratic Party about U.S. support for Israel. Does that lead you to feel like we should be cutting off military aid to Israel? For example, I know Bernie Sanders has a bunch of votes this week to try to cut off specific funding of weapon systems. Where do you land on that? Yeah. So if I was in the Senate right now, I'd be joining Senator Sanders in voting in support of those resolutions. And let me tell you that this was, you know, a year ago when he introduced the resolutions with regards to offensive weapon sales to Israel. I was asked how I would have voted for that.

1:19:01And I said how I would have voted on it. And I said I would have voted alongside my Senator Tina Smith and Senator Amy Klobuchar in support of it because the same values that I have behind making sure that kids can eat breakfast and lunch at school, right, for free. Those are the same values behind, you know, supporting those resolutions. The suffering that we have seen is too much. Yeah, it's off the charts. Yeah, if there's tools in our toolbox that we can use, we should use them.

1:19:33Jon Favreau:Agreed on that point. Let's turn to Minnesota. So some of Minnesota's neighbors, Iowa and Wisconsin, have drifted right. Iowa, pretty far right in the Trump era. Minnesota has not. Why? I mean, I think we really care about each other. And, you know, we come from the state of Senator Paul Wallstone and everybody knows, right, the bumper sticker, we all do better when we all do better, which is, you know, a famous quote from Paul. And I think people of all parties believe that in our state. We really care about fairness and looking out for our neighbor. And I think that's what you saw on display in the response to Operation Metro Surge.

1:20:23But I really think that that's what it's about, that folks just think you should be able to live a good life, you know, make your own choices and just feel successful.

1:20:35Jon Favreau:Bottle up whatever you got in the water over there. You mentioned a couple times, I mean, Trump and his cronies have spent a lot of time attacking Minnesota, a shocking amount of time, right? Tim Walls gets targeted all the time. ICE and CBP descended on the state. There's this obsessive focus on Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, on the Somali community, allegations of fraud. Did it surprise you that Minnesota like kind of had the eye of Sauron trained on it like this? And like, what is the impact of those attacks been on people just live there, like trying to live their lives? So I'd say a couple things.

1:21:10One, you know, fraud of any kind is completely unacceptable, right? In Minnesota, if you commit fraud, you're going to be, you know, prosecuted for it. But I also want to say that if this was really about fraud from the Trump administration, they would have said 3 ,000 forensic accountants and not, you know, 3 ,000 ICE agents. Yeah, exactly. That's right. And so the impact that this has had on our state, I know that, you know, your listeners or your viewers probably watched the news and saw it and were horrified. But what people need to know is that it was so much worse in person. the trauma the violence the chaos the things that people experienced a couple I guess I have a couple stories that I'd just like to share with you like my little auntie who you know is in her 70s was forced off the road by ice they surrounded her vehicle and she she's this cute little grandma she rolled down her window and she's like hey fellas how can I help you right and they said where are you going and you know she had a she had a program she was like I literally was just leaving a funeral you know this is uh this is the program from the funeral and she's like am I free to go and they're like yeah go ahead but she has a bumper sticker on her car that says Black Lives Matter.

1:22:48And she's like, I'm pretty sure that was targeted. What authority do they have to pull someone over in the first place? That's crazy. Right. And this happened all over the state, right? We go to, I'm Catholic. So it's been a

1:23:01Jon Favreau:weird week. Weird week for Catholics. But I have to tell you, I've never been more proud to be Catholic in my entire life. It is weird that your suitcase depicts you as Jesus. I know. Your staff thought it was normal. No, I'm a doctor. Yeah, I'm a doctor. Have you heard the theory that he thought he was told to say it was doctored, where then he said, I'm a doctor? I believe that theory. I buy it. I saw it on Twitter, but I buy it. Absolutely. I think that's probably true. Yes, but. Run off the road. Yeah. Well, you also hear stories, right, of individuals who were just stopped in the street simply because of the color of their skin.

1:23:41I'm Ojibwe. I'm Native American. We have a large urban Native population. And there were a lot of Native folks who were literally wearing their tribal IDs around their neck. I mean, it's outrageous. And the children, right, Liam, Liam Conejo Ramos, that the Trump administration, right, detained in Texas. They're now back, but they're now being targeted aggressively for deportation. The children, I talked to a second grade teacher who said, the biggest thing I have to figure out every day is, you know, how I manage through children who are crying at different times throughout class. Like, it's horrific.

1:24:30And we go to a parish in North Minneapolis, and we've got a lot of mixed status families there. And church was so empty. And on Christmas, there may be 40 people. It's usually hard to get a seat, right? And so, you know, throughout the occupation, we fed over 350 families. That work continues. People are afraid to leave their homes. They've been impacted financially in ways that I don't know if they'll ever recover. Remember, you know, and what I can't get over is that there are going to be some children in our state who have an ACE score, an Adverse Childhood Experience score, simply because there were federal agents in their neighborhood.

1:25:32I don't have another word for it, but I am running to avenge Minnesota and bring justice for our people. The drawdown has occurred. ICE still has a presence. They're more insidious now. But this certainly didn't just focus on the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul. We were traveling across the state. We had a statewide tour. And at multiple events, people's phones went off because they were all part of a group that was doing rapid response where ICE was at a daycare center, where they were at a construction site or a restaurant. And so I think people are starting to try to get back to normal, but this has changed.

1:26:25This has changed us. and on Palm Sunday it was packed and there were kids crying and laughing and toys dropping on the floor and it was like a lot of chaos and it was totally beautiful

1:26:47Jon Favreau:yeah another good kid chaos yeah like it just so folks are coming back but this is the financial impact of this on our state, the emotional impact, the impact on mental health, the economy, it is unforgivable. And so what the federal government laid at our doorstep, they have to repair and heal and restore. You know, I think you spoke incredibly powerfully to the impossible to quantify emotional impact. I mean, for every story like Liam, there's other stories we all read of like kids who were just, didn't go to school for three months, hiding in their houses, you know, and like the, how we ever fix that, you know, like how we ever be able to help those kids readjust and not be afraid.

1:27:38Jon Favreau:You also mentioned the just pure economic impact. I mean, I read that businesses in Minneapolis and St. Paul were reporting$300 million in losses um how how do they recover from that or how are they how are you guys able to help them recover from that you know i governed uh under under covid and uh we at least had a more of a partnership than an adversary um and had resources uh and now right it's the the folks uh who caused this chaos and violence and killed two Minnesotans, right, who are supposed to be the ones who are our partners in recovery. I will tell you that we have watched Minnesotans step up in a major way.

1:28:35Mutual aid, people who are standing outside of daycares and schools, you know in their neighborhoods there's literally people who stand outside of our parish every Sunday just to make sure that we can worship safely the financial contributions have been incredible philanthropy has responded but it's not enough and at the state level you know there's there are some things that we can do I am hopeful that there will be some rental assistance that we'll be able to get past this legislative session. But we have divided government or a tie in our house. And so that will be difficult. But the recovery is going to be long.

1:29:21And I think this, again, is one of the reasons why we need folks in Congress and Senate who understand the need for investment in this recovery. We can start by clawing back the $75 billion that was given to ICE to terrorize Minnesotans. It's a good place to start. Yes, it's a good place to start.

1:29:42Jon Favreau:I like that idea. I mean, as you know better than I do, Minnesota has a reputation, well-earned one, for being a generous place to live because of all the social services. And as I mentioned now, I mean, the Minnesotans are facing all these accusations of fraud, maybe up to a billion dollars worth of fraud. Republicans are using those allegations, those instances to try to undercut the entire concept of a welfare state, right? To suggest that all governments are corrupt and we're wasting your money. And why don't we just give a big tax cut to everybody, hint the billionaires and claw it all back, right?

1:30:16Jon Favreau:How do you think we can fight back on those kinds of attacks and sort of like the kind of governance that you and I believe in? For sure. Well, I'd say a couple of things. One, you know, like I said, the fraud is completely unacceptable. I'm a recovering executive director and will tell you of Children's Defense Fund, Minnesota. So people stealing money from the most vulnerable folks in our state makes me pretty angry. And so, you know, the governor and the legislature have put in place policies to stop fraud, to prevent fraud. And I still have hope that this legislative session, there'll be more that's able to get done.

1:31:00Republicans have voted down several measures, right, that would be helpful when it came to combating fraud. And so I hope that their better angels will arrive and they will vote in favor of some of these policies because I think.

1:31:14Jon Favreau:Better angels like J.D. Vance? You want him to come? Our theologian, right? J.D. Vance. You mentioned going to church a few times. What do you think of J.D. Vance saying the Pope shouldn't weigh in on war? If the Pope was mad at me and this Pope specifically, I would die. And like if my own priest, right, was mad at me, I would feel like just or disappointed in me. Yeah. Like that would be the worst. But if the Pope was mad at me, I would just be like and pack it in. Like I'd be like, that's it. I got to go. Yeah. I mean, we've all accused, I think, J.D. Vance of sort of selling his political soul to get into Donald Trump's graces and do anything for power.

1:32:01But he's really going literal here.

1:32:04Jon Favreau:here. But I think like speaking of J.D. Vance, of someone who grew up on the margins and has completely had his brain sucked out and forgotten where he comes from, right? This for me, I think, is also really important for us to talk about why these programs matter, right? I'm a kid who, you know, moved to the community of St. Louis Park where I still live with my family. My mom had a Section 8 housing voucher and that's how she did it. That's how we paid the rent. SNAP, which back in the day we called food stamps, was how we kept food on the table. I was that kid with a different colored lunch ticket.

1:32:39And Medicaid, or what's known as medical assistance in Minnesota, was what kept me alive. I missed a lot of school. I was sometimes in the hospital more than I was out in elementary school. And so I am alive because of those programs. And when I think about, you know, my mom, she worked so hard. And she went back to school and was able to do so because of the child care assistance program. She went back to school. She got her certificate in phlebotomy. She's a professional vampire, as we like to say. And I remember when she walked across the stage and she got her diploma. She was in like a bright blue cap and gown.

1:33:21And it felt like I was walking across that stage. So all of those investments helped to lift my family towards the middle class. And now I get to pay that forward and pay it back in service. That's what we have to talk about, right? And for children or seniors, people who don't make enough money to qualify, right, for, you know, or get health care through their employer. we can't forget about people and that I think is what I hope still makes us Minnesotans and still makes us Americans is that we care about each other and that we're going to wrap our arms around you when you need help and then you're gonna you're gonna pay that back and that I think is one of the things that's just completely missing from this conversation.

1:34:23Jon Favreau:Just hearing you talk, I hear, I can tell you worked for Paul Wellstone. I mean, odds are you did if you're in Minnesota politics, right? For those who don't know, Paul Wellstone was, I mean, truly one of the more, most inspiring people in political life when I was sort of like coming up in politics and working on the Hill, I desperately wanted to work for him. He was killed tragically. Can you just talk about Paul Wellstone, what he meant to you, like kind of how he shaped your career in the course of Minnesota politics? I mean, I exist because of Paul Wellstone.

1:34:59I was literally driving past the Wellstone for Senate office in 2002, my senior year of college at the University of Minnesota. And I was like, you know what? I like Paul Wellstone. Like, I'm just going to stop. Really?

1:35:12Jon Favreau:He just popped in? Just popped in. And a guy named Now I Know is my friend Chris was like, hey, are you here to volunteer? And I was like, oh, I guess. Sure. Okay. And I stuffed envelopes, which isn't really a thing we do anymore. Oh, I remember that. But yeah, I stuffed envelopes for two hours with like complete strangers. And I was like, this is amazing. And I went back every single day. And so I started off doing, you know, tasks that just needed to be done. And then ended up leading our urban native organizing work, which, you know, as you know, is how things happen on campaigns, right? Suddenly you're running the thing.

1:35:52Jon Favreau:Exactly. If you're good, here's more work. That's right. And so, you know, I was so moved by that experience and really just like seeing real people and who and everybody felt like that's our guy. Right. Paul's our guy. He's our senator. If it's the native community, the Somali community, folks up on the Iron Range, like everybody claimed him. and it was because he spent time with people all over the state and really like listened to them and met them and cared for them and that is you know when we talk about politics the wellstone way right that's what it's about it's about making sure that you're meeting people where you're at they're at and that the policies that you push for are directly informed by the people who are most impacted.

1:36:47And I remember this moment when, after he had died, and Walter Bondale, former vice president, was running in his place. And so we had to hand make a bunch of signs. And I'd mark her all over my arm, and it was like hot in the back room. And And it was, you know, and I looked around the room and it was full of people from all different walks of life. And I was like, oh, this. This is what I'm supposed to do. And I didn't think at the time at all that it meant run for political office. I just thought it meant, like, I'm going to be part of campaigns and organizing work. And then I was taken under the wing of a lot of Wellstone campaign folks.

1:37:44and worked at Wellstone Action for almost a decade afterwards, training people, tens of thousands of people across the country, to run for political office.

1:37:53Jon Favreau:That's great. If people want to have their own Wellstone moment working for you, where do they go? How can they do it? Sure. Folks can visit PeggyFlanagan.com. We'd love to have you on Team Peggy. It's going to take all of us. Well, thank you for coming in. It's great to talk to you. Thanks so much.

1:38:13that's our show for today thanks to peggy flanagan for coming on dan will be back in the feed on sunday with a conversation with david packman have a good weekend everybody bye everyone if you want to listen to pod save america ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on supercast substack youtube or apple podcasts also please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer.

1:38:46Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.