Trump's Explosive Diarrhea of the Mouth

25:01Jon Favreau:I know. I saw you. Which makes him essentially the diplomatic rank of an ambassador and one of the highest paid people in the White House. Yeah, that's a lot of money. Yeah. Usually, think about it this way. The deputy director of the NEC has that same rank. The deputy communications director may have that rank, doesn't always have that rank. The, you know, just very, very high level people make huge decisions have the same rank as Trump's favorite teleprompter guy. And that's your taxpayer money going to pay this guy. And that wasn't enough for him because he was making$100 ,000 extra off CalShe.

25:33Jon Favreau:I have a question. Why only$100 ,000? Yeah. I mean, this guy, he had all the goods. This guy could have just... Maybe it's just Trump went off script so much that he couldn't... I wonder how many bets did he lose. Also, it's like, talk about the multitasking. You're operating the prompter. You're doing that. You're watching that. But also, now he's going off script. So now you have your phone in your other hand. You're on CalShe. You're trying to change the bet. No, you're not changing the bet. You're changing the speech. Right. That's true. Yes. Oh, my God. Ahead of tonight's address, Calci Traders, it's just a little fun fact, a side note here, already wagered more than, earlier today, they had already wagered more than$800 ,000 on whether Trump says words like Hormuz or rigged election.

26:21Jon Favreau:He did an accomplishments topper. Boy, did he. It's about how horrible everything was before he became president, now how wonderful everything is, and go to TrumpRx, and here's your Trump account. He gave three websites. The best part was, this is so funny, he says, and if you want to read the documents, you can go to whitehouse.gov again that's whitehouse.gov it's like yeah yeah you've never heard of that one i mean this is very i mean this obviously he's a boomer but this is a pre essentially pre-google way of doing this which is people just google it now you don't really have to do the website but um yeah that was his his his accomplishments list was part like he likes to show that he's a winner and take care of everything but you could have told it was also like the consultants and the political people or the Susie Wiles, whoever, is like, you got to talk about this.

27:08Jon Favreau:This polls well. You got to talk about this. You got to talk about this. And, you know, you can talk about all your election conspiracies as long as you do this list at the top. You know, that's what was the third website he did? Whitehouse.gov, TrumpRx. And I think he did one other one, didn't he? The Trump accounts. The Trump accounts. Trump accounts. Yes. Yeah. Trump accounts for all your kids. So believe it or not, the teleprompter operator, that's just one of three corrupt dates we have for you from the last 48 hours. If only we could ever get that Corruptate sting we've been asking for for years.

27:33Jon Favreau:Whatever, someday. On Thursday, the Trump Media and Technology Group, the company that owns Truth Social, announced that it will sell Wall Street banks and investors, quote, a direct licensed real-time feed of the platform's most market-moving truths, including, of course, Donald Trump's. In other words, the president's family company is now charging Wall Street for early-ish access to the market-moving statements of the president, who will then profit. Why don't they just start asking the Treasury to print money for the Trumps? I don't know why we're going through all of these schemes and this and that.

28:10Jon Favreau:Everything's so complicated. Just go to Scott Besson and ask him to start printing money. Put it in your pocket. Walk away. This is truly one of the most wildly corrupt things that has ever happened. And that's saying a lot. That's saying a lot. But just think about this. A truth is a presidential statement. we laugh about it because they go out on this stupid fucking platform that no one pays any attention to well i was gonna say the whole thing it's it's funny because the platform is so bad and it's such a poor product and badly designed that it's so slow that they that basically the fix to make it like twitter is something now that wall street has to pay for well they they basically they're they they're going is think of it this way this is i'm gonna dumb this down for people.

28:53Jon Favreau:This would be like if Wall Street was paying the president to get a presidential statement before the rest of the people so that they could make instantaneous trades off of that information. There's an example, president announces a new ceasefire with Iran. you can use that to buy oil futures he says the end of the ceasefire you can sell your oil futures faster than anyone else because you you have paid money to the president to get access to that market moving information before everyone else in this country and it's not like everyone it's not like it's a pay-to-play thing where it's open to everyone no like it's not like you know twitter pro versus twitter or whatever you know whatever the fuck it is um where you can just pay more and Now your tweets will come faster.

29:43Jon Favreau:It's only available to banks and investors. Yes. Yes. It's basically you're getting information on your terminal before the public. And in this day and age with the way trades are made, five seconds is worth millions and millions of dollars. A second is worth millions of dollars. I was trying to think, is there a law? Is it just a thing that presidents shouldn't be doing? Is it in that category? or is there some kind of regulation? I mean, I don't know. Yeah, it's the abuse of power provision. It's a high crime and a misdemeanor. I was going to say the core of the problem lies in the fact that the president's market-moving statements aren't first released by the White House, but by the president on his own private media platform.

30:31Jon Favreau:That is the core of the issue. Yes. That it goes out on Truth Social first and then the federal government, which is supposed to be responsive to the people. Then they put the truth out a couple seconds after Trump does it on, Trump bleats. There's some obvious things the founders missed. This is one that I understand why they didn't foresee happening. Finally, last one, the Secret Service is apparently fed up with the vice president's travel demands, which last week included a request to fly his son to a golf lesson aboard Marine 2, That is the VP's military helicopter, which would have cost taxpayers up to$25 ,000 per hour around that, though the trip was scrapped due to high winds.

31:17Jon Favreau:But such requests have become so common that the vice president's security detail are reportedly now exchanging stickers and challenge coins among themselves that read Bobcat OTR Survivors Club. Bobcat being Vance's Secret Service codename. OTR is an off the record. So it's like a movement that's not planned in advance or that's not announced to the public in advance. Fun update to this. After MS Now broke the story, Vance canceled another planned helicopter ride for his son's golf lesson. John, where are his son's golf lessons? Are they in Philadelphia? How could he get there? Oh, they're on the other side of town.

31:54Jon Favreau:You remember when Marine One used to take Malia and Sasha to school every day, right? That was the thing that happened? They just hop on the helicopter. That is, what the fuck? I've said this before, but I worked for a politician once who did something that was so fucking stupid that one of our advisors said that is an A-plus answer to the policy 101 question of how to lose a presidential election. This is that. You are getting taxpayer-funded helicopter lessons for your son's golf lessons? It's not even like baseball game, Boy Scouts, charity work. It's fucking golf lessons. Boy, are we a long way away from Hillbilly Elegy, huh?

32:34Yes.

32:35Jon Favreau:What would Meemaw and Papa say about this? Up from your bootstraps, right into the helicopter. I mean, it is like he is so fucking lucky that that trip was canceled by the wind. But then he just, it was canceled by the wind, but then he planned another one and then canceled another one because of the story. I mean, it is. You know, it wasn't like, oh, close call. It was, let's charge ahead. It's stunning in it. And just beyond just a specific one, can you imagine the Secret Service is in charge of the Trumps and the Vances? That's their job. And out of that, the biggest asshole is J.D. Vance. You're a more demanding, worse boss than Donald Trump.

33:22Jon Favreau:How fucking high and mighty is J.D. Vance going to get when someone asks him about this? And he's going to do some kind of how dare you talk about my children like he's gonna i i just i imagine that's what we're gonna get from him i i cannot wait for we shoot an emergency pod because i'm gonna have so much to fucking say about it it's gonna be so bad he's gonna he is right now watching footage of richard nixon's checkers speech to try to do this and he's gonna fuck it up i'm i'm i'm even too too young to i mean obviously i am too that was in 1958 or something I learned about the checker speech at some point in life, and it is a piece of information that has now gone out of my head.

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37:10Jon Favreau:speaking of jd vance's travel he did make the trip to austin this week to sit down with joe rogan for nearly three hours uh because nothing else is going on um it was uh pure awkwardness sprinkled with occasional attempts at political maneuvering here are some of the highlights if people want to say we mishandled the epstein release guilty we did say especially the communications of it what do you think should have been done i think that we should have just dropped everything at the very beginning. So what is going on with Iran where it seems like the president keeps saying that a deal has been reached, negotiations have been successful, and then it all falls apart and we start bombing them again?

37:49Jon Favreau:Yeah. So how long do we have here? We have as much time as you need. If it was your call, would you have done exactly the same thing? Well, what did the president said publicly that J.D. was less enthusiastic about it? I think it was the exact phrase that he used. I mean, my attitude towards this man, as you know, is the vice president. I'm not a public commentator. Like my job is to give the best advice I can to the president of the United States. Republicans still fundamentally have a cool problem. The thing I couldn't get over Biden is just bad staff work, man. The way that he ate ice cream.

38:24Jon Favreau:I mean, it's like, you know, we could bring some of this stuff up, but it's like they would get him eating ice cream in the most ridiculous, suggestive way imaginable. Suggesting what? It's very clear. What is he thinking about when he sees Joe Biden eating ice cream? Sex. He thinks about sex. He thinks about sex? It's a cardinal rule of this podcast that we do not kink shame. We've always believed that. No bullshit. No kink shaming. but I would say it's weird that J.D. Vance watches Joe Biden eat ice cream and he thinks it's suggestive. That's weird. We can bring this up. We can bring this up.

39:02Jon Favreau:What are you talking about? He's so awkward. So here's one review from The Daily Wire's Ben Shapiro. I tuned into Joe Rogan yesterday and heard Bernie Sanders economics, Barack Obama's foreign policy, and Ro Khanna's conspiracy theories and then I realized J.D. Vance was talking. I want a candidate in 2028 who doesn't mirror the Democrats and who can win. Mr. VP, this is not the way. So Vance tried to tiptoe away from Trump on Epstein and Iran. He also did the Jeffrey Epstein had connections to Mossad and the highest levels of intelligence, CIA, Mossad, all that kind of stuff. So do you think it worked?

39:44Jon Favreau:And what does it tell you about how Vance sees the 28 race? It did not work. Also, how excited is Ro Khanna to be on that list? Definitely tweeted that out. Huge win for him. Also sounds like a pretty good candidate to me. Obama's foreign policy, Bernie's economics and Ro's take on the Epstein files. Well, I mean, his takes on the Epstein files are pretty good. Yeah, they are good. It's not going great for him. And he is trying to tiptoe through a minefield, but he is very clumsy and he's not very good at it. And that is his problem. I'm not here to give J.D. Vance political advice, but you really have to pick a side.

40:29Jon Favreau:And he's trying to be all things to all people. He's trying to be Trump's most loyal soldier to the MAGA people. He's trying to be Joe. He's supposed to get it with Joe Rogan about Epstein and he wants to be the anti-war guy. You can't do all those things without. And even if you could, he's not clever enough to pull it off. Yeah. Maybe some political genius could pull that off, but he is not that. He is not deft enough to do that. He is awkward. He is uncomfortable. He doesn't – he can't really do it. Like even in this – when you watch the – I didn't watch all of this obviously because I have self-respect, but I have watched a lot of the Rogan Vance interview.

41:05Jon Favreau:Throughout the whole thing, he's trying to like be like, you know, Joe, I get it. You get it. And so he goes to this thing where he brings up the MMA fighter at the White House saying that Michelle Obama is a man. And he thinks Joe Rogan is going to be on his side because what he wants to say to appeal to Joe Rogan is these fucking woke liberals trying to cancel jokes. They don't even get comedy. You just laugh and move on. And even Joe Rogan was like, I don't know, man. Saying that the White House wasn't a great idea. It's the White House. I don't know why you'd make that joke. He just can never get there.

41:38Jon Favreau:He just cannot do it. He can't read other people, which is very low for a politician. You can tell with interviews because he doesn't know. He's always uncomfortable with the audience, with the interviewer, because he's trying to read what's going to make them laugh or not or whatever. And he doesn't know. He is a little bit of Al Gore running for president in 2000. You're like overthinking everything you're doing and you're missing the connection people. You see it with crowds, too. Well, and the other parallel there is going to be like Gore's relationship to Clinton and how Gore tried to separate himself a little bit from Clinton.

42:16Jon Favreau:And that was a hard thing to do. Yeah. And Bill Clinton is not Donald Trump. And Bill Clinton did not take that well either. But it was also, despite his scandal at the time, still popular. And Donald Trump is not going to be so popular. Unlikely to be. I don't think Donald Trump's appropriate to be in the 60s like Bill Clinton's was. Not going to be popular, but also not going to be like, hey, J.D., if you need to criticize me, don't worry. Go for it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I suspect not. So that's going to be tricky for him. All right. Last thing before we get to Alex's conversation with Abdul. It's been an extremely busy week in politics, so you could be forgiven if you missed this major announcement from Secretary of War Pete Hegseth.

42:55Today, I'm authorizing a new screening program for testosterone deficiency for our service members, ensuring you have the right testosterone levels to operate at your absolute best. Because it's well-established science that as we age, testosterone levels often naturally drop. This initiative, it's not about artificial enhancement. It's about restoring and optimizing your natural capabilities, protecting your longevity, and ensuring you have the biological foundation required to sustain the fight.

43:30Jon Favreau:So if you visit hightdepartmentofwar.com, you can get 20 % off your next testosterone treatment by using the code Pete at checkout. we are like three minutes away from pete hexath offering penis enhancements to uh service members it's so what that was fucking nuts he's so down some weird rabbit hole born of his own insecurities uh i was looking into this because i was like where did this come because you're aging Because I'm aging. No, my tea is fine. Don't worry. That's what everyone says. High tea podcaster. Until it's 2-8. I was like, is this just a random Maha thing? And it is. But there was some report a couple years ago, and this was a thing in Congress, where long deployments can sometimes reduce testosterone levels in military.

44:28Jon Favreau:So you take, as usual, a kernel of something, and then you turn it into this like like all these doctors are like no of course you don't you don't screen for this unless someone's having symptoms and then you look at it and then also test and like the idea that you're just going to test everyone once a year testosterone levels like can can jump just based on the hour of the day and age and so it's like it's it's a weird thing to do and also if you do have if you do have lower testosterone apparently like the first move isn't always just hormonal replacement therapy which is what pete eggseth is offering like there's some doctor was like you could just go to bed earlier and drink less because apparently excessive alcohol consumption um can reduce testosterone so i don't know but maybe a little close to home for pete yeah i think i think pete maybe was doing a little of his own research thought what was good for his goose was good for the gander so testosterone testing is now mandatory uh if you're over 30 in the military but the flu shot is optional did they bring the flu shot back it's optional it's optional optional yeah who's to say if you want the flu shot great if not whatever well you're getting you're getting your t-screen it's important on the flu shot because it's not like the largest flu pandemic in world history started at a military base wow just look it's a it's another reminder that hiring the weekend anchor from fox news to run the military was a suboptimal choice.

45:56Gender-affirming care for everyone in the military.

45:58Jon Favreau:Gender-affirming care for our troops. Great job, Pete. Who would have thunk from Pete Hexha? Well, it comes for them all eventually. All right, Dan. That's all for the news. When we come back, Abdul El-Sayed.

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47:35Dan Pfeiffer:Hi everyone, Alex Wagner here. I just wrapped up a great conversation with Michigan Senate candidate, Dr. Abdul Al-Sayed. A couple of things I just wanted to know. We were originally going to host a debate with all three Senate candidates, but we ran into last minute scheduling issues, not surprising. And then Mallory McMorrow dropped out of the race. So with the August 4th primary less than TikTok three weeks away, we decided to proceed with individual conversations and interviews. We have of course invited Abdul's opponent, Congresswoman Haley Stevens to come on the show. And we are hoping that she will say yes.

48:10Dan Pfeiffer:Once again, please come on the show, Congresswoman Haley Stevens. We'd love to have a conversation. Also, as many of you know, Abdul used to host a podcast here on Crooked and John, John and Tommy are supporting him in the race and have contributed to his campaign. Dan was supporting Mallory McMorrow. Everybody had a dog in that fight, but me, I'm Switzerland. I'm neutral territory, which is why I had the pleasure of doing the interview with Abdul. And you can see I did not pull any punches, nor did he, not that it was bloody. So with all of that throat clearing and housekeeping out of the way, Give it a listen.

48:47Dan Pfeiffer:Here's my conversation with Michigan Senate candidate, Dr. Abdul El-Sayed. Joining me now is Dr. Abdul El-Sayed. I started this conversation offline saying I wanted to call you doc, but I'll just call you Abdul because you've given me permission. Thanks for joining me today. Honored, honored to be here. Like, as you know, there is a live conversation about whether or not I am actually a doctor, despite having spent a lot of time in grad school, earning both a PhD and MD. So like, I just prefer Abdul. It's unambiguous. But then even then, people are probably like, but his whole name is Abdurrahman.

49:17So I don't know. What can we even say?

49:21Dan Pfeiffer:I mean, just casually dropping PhD and doc, you know, doctor in there is something my mother wishes that I could have done. I never will. So thanks for doing the work for both of us. Well, hey, you know, I for children of immigrants everywhere. Also, all that means is like, you're ruining it for the rest of us. Just well, no, I wasted away my 20s. And here's the other side of it. Like, I'm unemployed. And I ask everybody I know for money. So like, look how that turned out for me. Just trying to get a job here, folks. Okay. I just want to caveat this. I want to timestamp our conversation because we leave in news hurricane hell.

49:53Dan Pfeiffer:We are recording this on Wednesday when you had a very rare open slot in your campaign. So thank you for doing that and just go forth with that knowledge, everybody who's listening and watching to this. Our chummy, lighthearted conversation is now going to take a pivot for the very serious because, well, we live in 2026. Yeah, that part. Yeah, right? Real talk. I want to start with ICE. On Monday, ICE officers shot and killed a 25-year-old legal resident of this country, Joan Sebastian Guerrero. They shot him in front of his wife and daughter. That was about a week after killing 52-year-old father of three, Lorenzo Salgado Araujo in Houston.

50:35Dan Pfeiffer:You are running on abolishing ICE. And on one hand, the polling shows that public opinion has moved pretty dramatically on this issue. It is a strong one for Democrats. On the other hand, it is about 50-50 overall. And we really just haven't seen continued national outcry and protest and mobilizations after the murders of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Good. ICE is still capturing 2 ,000 people a day. What is your message to the other 50 out there who might be a little reticent slash hesitant about abolishing ICE? We can have a safe and secure border. We can enforce immigration policy, but we don't have to do it while shredding our constitution to the interests of Stephen Miller and Donald Trump.

51:23And maybe it's just that I ran government agencies. There are not that many people who run for Senate who've actually worked in the bowels of government. And anybody who's ever run a government agency will tell you that once you have a culture of impunity set in, it's almost impossible to take that out. You can't reform it. You can't retrain it. And for most of our existence as a country, we've been able to enforce immigration policy without having to have ICE. ICE is, what, 25 years old? Not even? We don't have to have this. And let's also understand what ICE has become. ICE is not about immigration.

51:58ICE is not about the southern border. Think about the places where ICE has been the loudest. You're talking about Chicago and Minneapolis. ICE is about normalizing paramilitary force in contraposition to the constitutional order itself. So I think we can win a future where we have a coherent, thoughtful, peaceful immigration approach. But that doesn't start with ICE. That starts with a pathway to citizenship and protecting our southern border and enforcing policy without tearing apart the basic constitutional rights that people are losing left and right. When they're shooting people in the streets, it should tell you that this is not about the thing they tell you.

52:37It's about it hasn't been under Donald Trump. And frankly, we should have known that after the first Trump administration. But the last point I'll make on this, Alex, is that as Democrats, we have to decide that we actually want to be in the business of persuasion. And I think too often we're afraid of issues that they tell us we're going to lose on. And we don't do the work of actually having the conversation that's persuasive. They tell us the same thing about healthcare. They tell us this about immigration. They tell us this about so many issues that we could win the argument on if we had the courage to have it.

53:03And I'm just not willing to do this without having the courage to have it.

53:06Dan Pfeiffer:Help me understand, though, practically what that means. So you're talking about peaceful immigration policy. Is there immigration enforcement? And who does it if it's not? Yes. I mean, before we ever had ICE, we had INS. But the point here is that you can't enforce immigration policy to the breaking of all of the other laws, including our constitution itself. Like when they're trying to pursue warrantless policy where they don't actually have to get a warrant to enter your home to pursue immigration detention, what that tells you is that this is actually about lawlessness, not law enforcement.

53:38And so there's an approach here where you abolish ICE, you fire the people who've been hired without the right vetting or training. You start again with a very particular kind of force with high training where you are enforcing at the edge of cases that really are about somebody who has come and broken our actual laws rather than blanket enforcement that is supposed to be loud and in your face specifically to weaponize the idea of immigration against a political party or political party. movement. Like that really is what this is about. If you think about Donald Trump, you think about Stephen Miller, you think about J.D.

54:13Vance, the thing that they want to tell you is that immigrants are bad. It's the same reason that they are trying to get people to move abroad when they're applying for permanent residency in a green card, right? This is not about immigration enforcement. This is about immigration itself. And I'm so sorry. I happen to believe that immigration has been a very, very good thing for this country. Not just because it's been a good thing for people like me. It's been a good thing for this country. We in this country, we're struggling to build public policy that gets people to want to have kids. And if you believe in capitalism, then you should know that capitalism only works because the economy grows.

54:45And part of the reason the economy grows is because we've immigrated our way out of this problem. The problem here though, is that these same people who are trying to weaponize ICE against the idea of immigration itself don't also want to pass policies like, I don't know, paid family leave and free childcare and free healthcare and investing in housing so people could actually imagine having kids. So all of that is to say, we actually have to win the fight around immigration itself, that immigration is a good thing, and that ICE is against the constitution itself. We have to go and have that conversation.

55:14We really can enforce that policy if we thought from scratch about what the immigration system is supposed to look like. But again, we're not willing to have nuanced conversations because we're so afraid of our own shadows.

55:24Dan Pfeiffer:Yeah. I mean, reaffirming that immigration is a good thing seems like the big work ahead of us, given how vilified immigrants have been, and then making the case for permanent residency for people who've been here illegally for sometimes, you know, decades. That's a big shift in sort of the way America writ large thinks about immigrants and immigration. But Alex, I'll tell you this, right? I've been up and down my state now and I live in one of those states that everybody says, oh, well, you can't possibly win the state of Michigan talking about immigration. I'm sorry. But like, you know, Michiganders are open-minded and they're good hearted.

55:59Donald Trump sold this lie to us that the reason that the economy is not working is because an immigrant took your job. The reason that you're out of health care is because an immigrant took your health care. The reason you're out of home is because an immigrant's living in your home. That was the whole, they're eating the cats, they're eating the dogs. And the problem with it is that we're so busy running away that we forget that we too have mouths that we can use to be talking about what the real problem is. If you're out of a job, it's because some corporations trying to figure out how to automate your job right now.

56:27If you're out of a home, it's because we have not invested in housing for a very long time because the banking industry ran amok and then collapsed the entire housing infrastructure. And then we stopped the building housing. If you're out of healthcare, well, it's because a huge corporation has figured out how to buy up all the hospitals in your location and then squeeze the money out of them and then shut down the ones that are not making them money. These all have answers. And if you're not advancing the answers to the actual problems and you have nothing to say about those actual problems, what you're basically saying is, well, his answer is the best available one.

56:59And then we wonder why we're losing. Now, why are we not talking about corporations? Why are we not talking about how unlivable it is? Well, it's because too often Democrats take money from the exact same corporations that are part of the problem. And so like, we've got to get serious about actually thinking about how we advance an argument about what's wrong and how we fix it. And when we do that, I actually think we can have winning arguments about immigration too. But you can't leave his argument sitting there without advancing an alternative argument that's not Trump bad. Yes, of course, Trump bad, Trump heinous.

57:28But like, why are you good? That really is the question we have to answer. Okay.

57:33Dan Pfeiffer:On that same topic, areas where Democrats have, it feels like the rug pulled out from under them by Republicans. I want to talk about police and law enforcement. There's a whole lot of back and forth. And without getting into the minutia, the idea of defunding the police, right? You told the Detroit News that you never, ever called for defunding. CNN then uncovered old statements from, I think, 2021 and 2020, 2020, where you did affirmatively say we do need to defund the police, though you were clear that you didn't mean completely defund. Then you also deleted a lot of old posts and old tweets, maybe old news, but it does beg the question, what is your actual position on whether or not police departments get too much funding?

58:22So look, I've in the interim worked in Wayne County. And in that role, I worked very closely with law enforcement. And of course, when you get life experience, you get a lot more nuance about how things actually work. I'm going to venture this idea that it shouldn't really be that controversial, that everybody really just wants to get home safe at night and stay safe at home. And the question we should ask is, how do we design a system that does that? Right now, our current system is anytime there's any sort of social unrest, we answer that question with somebody with a gun. And that has led to a lot of harmful circumstances.

58:55And it isn't always efficient to stopping the thing that we actually want. So what I think is that we need more investment in recruitment, retention, and retirement for law enforcement. We need those things. Why? Because too often the people who work in law enforcement in urban communities don't come from those communities. And that's partly because the people in those communities don't believe that they can have a good life in those jobs. And so I would rather have people from those communities who say, hey, I'm here to keep my neighbor safe rather than I'm policing against this whole community.

59:28But on the other side, we need a lot more investment in the things that actually keep people safe. It's not always a person with a gun. It might also be behavioral health response. It might be preventing violence through community violence intervention programs. And I think we need those things too. And then there's the question of the poverty that tends to drive all of it? How are we investing in public services, public schools, public wellness? Those are things that we need too. So rather than start with this one question about defund or not defund and play into, again, the same un-nuanced, cynical approach to politics that Republicans want to play, how about we talk about what we want to build?

1:00:06So look, I get why now everybody's sort of dragging this out, but I've tried to be nuanced about what I mean, even when I used that word. But I do think it's important for us again to go and win the argument. And I'll tell you, I've been up and down the state. You go to communities in the rural parts of my state and you say those things. Most heads are like, yeah, actually, no, that's kind of what we want. So let's do that.

1:00:26Dan Pfeiffer:You know, in the context of a podcast interview, right, there's space and time and bandwidth to talk about the nuances. But unfortunately, politics right now is a caricature of itself, but also makes a caricature out of candidates. And the reality is that Donald Trump won your state by, I believe, a point and a half at the same time that Alyssa Slotkin won her seat by about a third of a point. And I sort of wonder, you know, extrapolating from your complex answers to issues that I think really trigger the right and are easily packaged to stoke fear among swing voters and independents, are you of the mindset that you need to win over people who voted for Trump and more broadly folks in the middle?

1:01:11Dan Pfeiffer:or for you, is this a turnout election? I think there's a third way here. He's using that word. Yeah. Be careful, dude. You're running as a Democrat. Practically, let's step back for a second, right? I want us to think about what Donald Trump teaches us, if there's anything to learn from his experience. You're right. Politics turns people into a character. Donald Trump, in theory, should be the easiest person to caricature, and yet he won elections. But you know what he did? He went everywhere and said the same things everywhere. And Democrats play this defensive style of politics. We're so concerned about what they're going to say about us that we forget the fact that we too have mouths and voices and ideas that we could be advancing anywhere and everywhere.

1:01:51And I think if we do those things and we're faster about defining ourselves and defining others, that we can win both the kinds of voters who voted for people like Donald Trump and also those folks who have sat out for a very long time. And the reason I believe that is because, you know, our internal polling shows me up pretty substantially, despite the fact that outside spending has hit$50 million in my race,$50 million. Now, if it was all about what people are going to say about you or what they're going to say about your opponent, I shouldn't have a prayer in hell in this race. And yet what we've done is politics, the old fashioned way.

1:02:27I go everywhere. I talk to everyone. I do not shy away from booking these conversations or any conversation because I know what I believe and I'm willing to talk about it. And when people actually you give them the opportunity to listen in nuance. People are really smart. And so I just reject the idea that I'm going to be turned into a character. And the way that I reject it is to make sure that you have heard me and that I've put myself anywhere, whether that's a town hall in your local community or on the radio or on a TV spot or campaigning with Hassan Piker, God forbid, or listening and talking to you here on Pod Save America.

1:02:59And the last thing I'll tell you is this, right? So I'm proving out that this tactic can work just like Donald Trump did, ironically. But also the last thing I'll tell you is this. The real divide in our politics is not around some left-right spectrum. Like, are you a Democrat or Republican or right-wing or left-wing or blue or red? And that there are these people in the middle who walk around wondering where they sit on the left-right spectrum. Most of the time people are like, yo, I can't afford my healthcare and steak is so goddamn expensive. And I'm really, really worried about the quality of my kid's school.

1:03:27What are you going to do about that? And so I don't play the game where I hue to a particular set of talking points. I try to talk out what I think we need to do and be completely honest. And I stand up around these, you know, third rails you're not allowed to touch in politics. You know, every time I, and we haven't got into yet, I'm sure it's on your question set, but like Israel, I'm like, look, the question about Israel isn't about the theoretical right to exist of a country that exists. The question about Israel is, do they have a right to our tax dollars? Because I live in a community here in Michigan where there are places not too far from where I live, where the median income is$14 ,000 a year.

1:04:03And those people send their kids to schools that haven't changed for 50 years. They can't afford basic infrastructure. Like it's like you're traveling on gravel roads in the middle of a city. And then you want to tell me that the best use of my tax dollars is to send them somewhere else. And you know, when you say that and then people hit you on it, people are just like, yeah, no, actually I agree with what he's saying. And I'm not so interested in a theoretical question about the right of a country to exist. I'm wondering what you're going to do with my tax dollars and why you're sending them there when I I could be using them here.

1:04:29Dan Pfeiffer:With all due respect, I mean, the question of whether Israel should exist or not is essential when you're answering whether a U.S. tax dollar should go towards protecting that right to exist. And it sort of raised – let me just ask you the question because, I mean, I think you've made it a zero-sum game between, like, funding for, for example, schools and aid to Israel. The U.S. budget is large, and there's a question about, you know, to what degree Congress should prioritize spending on Israel, which gets at the central question for, I think, a lot of Jews in this country and a lot of Jews in your state is, you know, the Jewish identity and the Jewish statehood is essential to them.

1:05:11Dan Pfeiffer:And they may think that war is a genocide in Gaza, and they may completely disagree with Bibi Netanyahu, but their Jewish identity is as essential to them as their American identity. So I wonder when you are thinking about those people, and they may support you, how do you help them understand where Israel exists on your list of priorities? Is it immoral to support Israel at this point? Or is there some other avenue? Look, I grew up, I was really grateful to grow up in a community with a large Jewish community, about 40 % Jewish. I had the privilege of being welcomed to shul and being welcomed to Seder and going to bar and bat mitzvahs growing up.

1:05:58I learned a lot about the Jewish faith. I learned so much about the Jewish contribution to American culture and society. and I will do everything I can to protect Jewish Americans in this country from anti-Semitism. I also, in as much as I love the Jewish people and Jewish culture, I love and revere Palestinians and Palestinian culture. And most importantly, I love and revere the people I am running to serve here in Michigan. So the idea that Michigan tax dollars should be sent to a foreign government that wants to foreclose on Palestinian rights to peace, dignity, and self-determination, which I hold equal to Jewish rights to peace, dignity, and self-determination.

1:06:38But the idea that our money is being sent to a government that wants to foreclose on one community's right to self-determination and being misused away from solving the needs of the people I'm actually serving is a pretty crazy thing. And in setting up this question about Israel's right to exist, you rightly point to the idea of whether or not there is American intervention that ought to be spent to enforce that. And I think the vast majority of Americans would say, whatever you think about Israel's right to exist, our tax dollars should not be used for the interests of a foreign government when they need to be used for the interests of the people living in our community on its own.

1:07:17So I believe in equal rights to peace, dignity, and self-determination for Palestinians and Jewish Israelis alike. But I also understand that in an era where people ask you, how are you going to pay for that when you want to give people healthcare? Or how are you going to pay for that when you want to give people good schools? It's pretty crazy to be sending our money over there when it could be used over here.

1:07:36Dan Pfeiffer:So no funding to ensure the survival or future of the Jewish state. Well, I turn that back around on you, Alex, and say, why is it our responsibility to ensure that? I'm just asking because I think people want to But why is it? Why is it understanding? I think. But hear me out. Hear me out. Why is that the essential frame from which we work? Like, why is it assumed that the United States ought to be in the business of backstopping a foreign government? Like, I'm just saying, like, I don't want ill will for for Jewish Israeli people at all. I really don't. I just want equal rights to peace, dignity, self-determination for all people.

1:08:07But the notion that somehow our tax dollars ought to secure the interests of a foreign government like this is the United States and our own kids don't have good schools. And you're telling me that that should be a primary concern over there. Like imagine we said the same thing about any other country, any other one, like my family's from Egypt. Okay. Like, would it be crazy if somebody was asking me like, Hey, do you think Egypt has the right to exist? People like Egypt exists. I'm like, well, if somebody wanted to change the nature of Egypt, uh, do you think the United States should be spending all of its money to make sure, or any of its money to make sure that that happens?

1:08:37People like, I don't know what that, that seems like a different country's issue. But like, I'm just saying that like you can both say that Israel exists, but it doesn't have a right to my tax dollars. And it is not our responsibility as American taxpayers to take money away from kids who don't have good schools and give it to a country to buy bombs and tanks. Like the idea that our conversation even questions that is itself a big question we should be asking. Like, why is this the frame of the debate?

1:09:06Dan Pfeiffer:I think APAC affiliated super PACs have spent about$15 million so far to defeat you. 30. Okay, I'm wrong. Sorry. Updated stats. And your opponent, Haley Stevens, is their preferred candidate. You've called her a sort of Trojan horse for the pro-Israel agenda. You've accused her of failing the moral Rorschach test by not calling what's happening in Gaza, the atrocities, a genocide. Here's my question. There's only one Democrat that's going to win this. If she wins our unit campaign for her? I'm going to make sure that Mike Rogers never sees the inside of the U.S. Senate. But like here is the important question.

1:09:45I'm going to campaign against Mike Rogers for sure. And look, I've already said that like I'm committed to making sure Democrats win and Republicans lose. Do you want her campaigning for you if you're the nominee? But here's the bigger question. I just want to go back to this point that you made because it's such a really, really important one. You rightly pointed to the reason why the frame of the debate is always about the theoretical right to exist of a country and where we put our money. Because if you say what I just said, which I think the vast majority of Americans, I'd be like, yeah, that's just conventional wisdom that we should be more worried about people in our own country than the existence of another country.

1:10:21If you say what I said, there is one super PAC that's going to spend tens of millions of dollars to annihilate your political existence. I mean, that's why most politicians sit in this political consensus that says that you cannot touch the third rail of Israel. Meanwhile, people in their own communities are like, why not when my own kid goes to a school that looks like it did 50 years ago? And so that exactly is it, is that you have a particular super PAC that has become the biggest spender in our whole race,$30 million to try to put my head on a pike to show every Democrat that thou shalt not say the conventional wisdom that maybe the interest of kids in our own country matters more than whether or not we think about the theoretical right to exist of another country.

1:11:06Dan Pfeiffer:Do you feel like there's some opportunity to work with Trump on this? I know I just bear, bear before you respond, let me just remind people. I mean, it's Donald Trump, right? But, you know, this is someone who is increasingly at odds with Prime Minister Netanyahu, even though he also bear hugs him from time to time and has effectively fought a war with him for him. But they now have divergent interests in terms of the war in Iran. And I'm old enough to remember when Donald Trump called Bibi Netanyahu fucking crazy. That's a quote. That was like four weeks ago. Exactly. So is there, I mean, is there an opportunity for Democrats to try and take advantage of that opportunity and move the needle using Trump on Israel?

1:11:59So I'll tell you this. I'm less concerned about Trump himself and more concerned about voters in Michigan who Trump lied to. And I can't tell you the number of people who've come up to me at town halls and been like, I voted for Trump three times and I'm voting for you. I'd be like, why? And the answer is usually two things. Number one, you really want me to have health care. I really want you to have health care. Number two, it's you really want to keep my money here. So we're running a pretty simple campaign, Money out of politics, money in your pocket, Medicare for all. And the thing about democracy is if you can win the debate, you can win voters over, you can win the conversation, you can start to change public policy.

1:12:34So look, I think Donald Trump has been burnt by the Israeli government and he's feeling the burn right now. He got duped into fighting a war that Donald, frankly, Bibi Netanyahu has been trying to find an idiot big enough to fight for the better part of 40 years. He finally found the dumbass who would do it. And now Trump's in the situation where he's like, damn, I'm trapped. All for what? So Israel could try to annex southern Lebanon? You know, who wins out of this war? Certainly not the American public, not even Donald Trump. I mean, maybe the Iranian regime who now figured out how to control the flow of the world's energy supply.

1:13:11And certainly Bibi Netanyahu, who has annihilated southern Lebanon. So I think there's an opportunity here to prove out that people in this country are sick and tired of being told what we can do from a foreign policy standpoint by a foreign government and to point to the obvious policy failure that has us paying$5 gas here in Michigan to get to a point in our politics that actually says, look, maybe this is not the right approach here. And maybe we could actually have a politics for our people, by our people and in the interest of our people. Right.

1:13:43Dan Pfeiffer:But you are you are not running to be, you know, the mayor. Right. You're not running to be an executive. You are running to be in the Senate, which is an increasingly dysfunctional body where the term is six years. And if you have the majority, it's going to be a slim one. And you're going to have to work with people like Mary Peltola and Roy Cooper, who were backed by Chuck Schumer and are much more in the centrist swing of democratic politics. How do you think about making common cause with them? If it's, you know, if it's a new democratic majority, how are you going to work with the people that come from a pretty different ideology than you?

1:14:25Yeah. You know, I think part of the reason there's so much attention being paid to this particular race is because Michigan is unique. Not only is it the greatest state in the country, hands down, way better than Ohio, who produced Ramaswamy and J.D. Vance, like bad record for Ohio. God bless you, Sherrod Brown, but you're doing the Lord's work.

1:14:44Dan Pfeiffer:Ohio digs. I'm not involved in this. I just want to say for everybody in Ohio that's listening, that's all on Doc. It's all on me. I'll take it. I can't stand Ohio. But I'll tell you this. The reason people are paying attention is because a lot of folks have often said that a politics that really centers in on the needs of everyday people can't win outside of these democratic bastions like New York. And the point that I'm often making to folks is that people need the same things wherever you are in this country. And a politics that delivers on getting money out so that we can finally put money back in people's pockets by like standing with unions and keeping our money here and taxing billionaires their wealth and standing up to big corporate monopolies and oligopolies that kind of politics, it can win anywhere.

1:15:39And so in winning the race itself, we are shifting the conversation about the kind of politics we can have nationwide. And so, look, I'm looking forward to working with folks like Roy Cooper and Mary Peltola and building strong relationships. But I also think that they operate from a standpoint based on a flawed set of assumptions that I'm trying to upend in this race. I know that we can deliver for Michiganders if we actually get corporations out of our politics and start standing with the people. I know that Medicare for All is broadly popular if you're willing to reject the influence of big pharma and big insurance corporations in trying to dominate what we can possibly talk about.

1:16:18I know that keeping money here rather than supporting a foreign government over there is broadly popular. And I want to prove it out. And when we do in this race, I want to be able to have conversations with folks and think, hey, look, we did this in Michigan. I think you can do it too. And I think we can actually build a politics that actually gets stuff done because here's the problem with it. Look at my own race. DTE, our local utility, Blue Cross Blue Shield, our local health insurer, Big Tech, APAC, they're funding both my Democratic opponent and my Republican one. So if either of them win, Guess who wins?

1:16:52Big Tech wins. Blue Cross Blue Shield wins. APAC wins. DTE wins. And we're all out here being like, well, the body is so dysfunctional. We never get stuff done. Well, because we never really have a contrast that's about getting stuff done, because guess what? Either way, the corporate lobbyists are showing up with the same bill. And then and then they tell you, oh, look, you have a bipartisan opportunity to get legislation done in bipartisan because corporations have bought off both parties. And then you pat yourself on the back for being bipartisan to do the thing that helps the corporation and not the people you, you, you got elected to serve.

1:17:26And I think we have an opportunity here to actually win the debate and then actually start doing things that deliver for people. Cause none of us got into this work. Like this is a shit job. I just want to be clear. Like it's just a shit way to live your life. None of us got into this because you know, you don't want to deliver for people. And the hardest part for me is like, I carry people's stories with me. I mean, I trained as a doctor and I learned how to listen to people in pain, but people bring you their stories, hoping that you can help. And I know, I know, I know, I know. For every single person in public service, like you're doing this because you really want to help those people.

1:17:56But the system has rigged it. So it's almost impossible to do. What if we actually took it on in one? So that's the conversation I'm hoping to have with the 99 other senators in the country. I think some of them will go better than others, but I think we can prove out that we can actually win on our morals if we can do that here in Michigan. Now, here's the hard part. They're spending a shit ton of money, right? To stop $50 million already come in. $50 million. We're being outspent eight to one. And yet, you know, we're still leading the conversation. So it's got to be people coming together around a politics that is of the people, by the people, and for the people standing up to the power of the corporations who are keeping us from having the things that we need and deserve.

1:18:35Dan Pfeiffer:I have two quick questions. You can make a long questions if you want. Okay. You talk about taking power. You talk about democratic control. The president this week is focused on election interference, not his own, which is measurable, but on alleged election interference. All of this is a bid to distort, if not steal, the results of the 2026 midterms. Are you worried about a peaceful transfer of power? Is there something Democrats should be doing that they're not doing? If, in fact, they win one or both houses of Congress, are you worried about a peaceful transfer of power? And is there something Democrats should be doing that they're not doing?

1:19:16I am. I'm really worried about it. Donald Trump understands the stakes of this. And he basically told the Republicans as much. He said, if they win, I'm going to be impeached. And there is nothing about that man that is about the dignity of his office. It is entirely about self-preservation and self-enrichment. And that's how he's used the office. Now, he understands that our winning is the single biggest threat and he's acting accordingly. Now, the problem that we so often have is that we don't actually meet the demand with the right level of urgency. So I think it's incumbent on all of us to be narrating exactly what's happening.

1:19:52Look, here's what he's doing. Here's where he's mobilizing ICE. Here's where they're buying detention facilities. Here's what he said he wants to do. Here's where he's sending election interferers. And here's what they say they're going to do. We need to be very, very clear about that. And then we need to mobilize people past it. The way to make the elections unrigable is to overwhelm them with the power of a message that gets people out to actually win. Like we can't keep winning these razor thin elections anymore when they want to steal them because razor thin elections are way easier to steal.

1:20:26And so, you know, people talk about like, are you going to win the middle or are you going to bring people out? It's like, we don't have a choice, but to do both. We've got to win people who are disaffected by him. And we've got to win the people who've been disaffected by the political process itself. We've got to win in massive waves. That is the way we protect our democracy. That is the way we take back power, hold him accountable. And finally, finally, get the kind of democratic process back that allows people's actual will to reflect in government.

1:20:53Dan Pfeiffer:When you talk about people's will being reflected in government, I would assume that means also having people that represent different generations of people, different generations of Americans. There's been a lot of criticism about the gerontocracy, the the aged seniority in Democratic and Republican ranks, but especially in Republican. Well, I won't even say especially in Democratic and Republican ranks. Do you think Mitch McConnell is alive? I mean, do you think he owes the public? As a doctor, that's an empirical question that I don't have the data to be able to answer. Do you think he owes voters a video?

1:21:26Dan Pfeiffer:Do you think the photo of an unhealthy looking gay photo— I'll just say that photo is unconvincing. Yeah. But let's step back. The idea that politicians should die in office is crazy. And let's not be the pot calling the kettle black. We had our whole Dianne Feinstein situation too. I just think that it's important to have representation. Well, I think people would say Joe Biden is case number one of someone perhaps being too old for office. But anyway, Diane Planckstein. Um, but, but I mean, we just, just this week, we're dealing with one person who passed away and another who like, we don't know if he passed away.

1:22:01And so I just think that like, we do need to reinvigorate our politics. I think that that's going to naturally happen with time. But I also think that part of the problem right now is that the way that we do politics makes it so that it is too easy to accumulate and hold power once you've already gotten it. And part of that is a filibuster. Part of that is a campaign finance law. Part of that is the role that's played by like television and media. Like, I just think we're not actually having a robust debate about who we are and who we want to be that reflects a whole half of the voters. And so part of what we've tried to do in our campaign is rather than, you know, talk down to young people.

1:22:44I'm 41, so I don't even know what that means. Like, I'm not particularly young. We're going to count you as young. But Alex, I'm the oldest I've ever been. Um, so all of, all of that is to say that like part of the way that you engage young people to bring them back to the process is to actually ask them what they want for the future that they have the highest stake in and to center them in the campaign and to make policy around what it is that they say they want. So when we focus in on affordability of, uh, housing, when we focus in on education, affordability, when we focus in on AI, this is about reflecting the need and the urgent fears of young people in our society who are saying, look, I just took a$60 ,000 plus loan for the opportunity to have a job that an AI looks like it's about to take.

1:23:31What the fuck do I do? And if we don't have an answer for them, then we're not serious about governing. It's interesting. I was talking to some folks and they're like, well, this AI thing, I think it's overblown. I'm like, not if you're under 30. And this is the first era in which you have a, the people who are, who are the most afraid of a new technology are the youngest people. Most of the time, the people who are the earliest adopters and who like it the most are young, but like, it's because young people both use AI and understand the danger of AI. And so, you know, we've put AI front and center.

1:24:05We have an AI for democracy plan, which is about putting democracy ahead of AI and making sure that at least 50 % of the board representation of every AI hyperscaler is democratically selected. And we're doing that because I take seriously that young people are going to have to live in the world that we legislate in. And that means centering them in these campaigns. And I think once we do that and young people make a habit of it, I think we're going to start to see a lot more turnover.

1:24:30Dan Pfeiffer:Will there be a day when the 41 year old actually feels old in the U.S. Senate? TBD on that one. I'll be 42 by that point, but I'll let you know. Keep us posted, doc. I will. I will. Dr. Abdul Al-Sayed, it is a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for entertaining my numerous questions. We will be following the race very, very, very carefully. Good luck out there. Thank you. And look, if for folks who want to get involved, go to Abdul4Senate.com. I hope you'll chip us off five bucks or 10 bucks or we're phone making. This is an opportunity. It's literally the money versus the many in this race.

1:25:05So I hope that folks who are listening will get involved. Alex, thank you for a really thoughtful conversation. I'm really grateful for it. And I'm looking forward to the next one, okay?

1:25:12Dan Pfeiffer:Definitely.

1:25:19Jon Favreau:That's our show for today. Thanks to Abdul for coming on. Dan will be back in the feed on Sunday with a conversation with Run for Something's Amanda Lippman. Dan, what'd you guys talk about? Amanda and I had a great conversation about what's happening in the Democratic Party right now, where the party can go from here. And the really inspiring story she's hearing from the 100 ,000 people who have signed up to run for office since Trump was elected in 2024. If you want to be inspired, you just talk to Amanda Littman. Works every time. All right, everyone. Have a good weekend. Bye, everyone. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.

1:25:48Jon Favreau:Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Farrah Safari with Ree Cherlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hefcoat, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, David Tolles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.