When Life Gives You Don Lemon

28:00It is worth, it is worth talking about. Like after your arrest, the White House tweeted out, when life gives you lemons with a chain emoji. Like the White House cheering on the arrest of a journalist, a black journalist with slavery chains. I mean, did you, first of all, ever, you know, you've been in the crosshairs of this administration before, right? Like, you know what it's like to be a journalist at CNN, to have a big platform. But did you, what did that moment mean to you when that tweet went out? if you if you really want to i'm not surprised and look i'm a big boy and what i i just kind of shook my head alex like you know um but i only think that that made them look bad i think that i do i do believe um i i thought that they that was sort of a test to see how that went over and i don't think it played well in the public and i think that they after that they quickly realized it and they, you know, they had, they tried to squash it.

29:11They didn't go as far as they could have with it. Um, and I do think that they underestimated where the public sentiment would be in this particular thing. Even conservatives saying, okay, guys, this is way too far because what happens if they're a democratic administration and they start doing this to us, then we're in trouble. So, you know, I looked at it and I was like, okay, whatever. I'm not surprised um you know is it uh disgusting and racist and inhumane and bigoted and all of the things absolutely but i'm not gonna i don't sit there and dwell on it because i have great legal counsel and all of the things that they have done will um pay off in court can i talk about that That's where I intend to fight this.

29:59Yeah. Yeah. Because I know that your lawyers, and again, if you can't talk about this, just let me know. But your lawyers want to see the facts that the government presented to the grand jury in order to get the indictment. Because they're saying, we don't really trust whatever facts the government gave to the grand jury. Like, they have a history of, what is it? Your lawyers are pointing to what they call a small but growing body of case law involving the government engaging in highly unusual conduct simultaneous to political pressure to bring charges and misstatements of the law at the highest levels of government.

30:35I mean, they see this persecution effectively and they want to see what the government case is for all of this because they look at what's happening to you. I know James Comey is another person cited as an example of this government, this highly unusual government contact. Letitia James. Tish James. I mean, can you talk more about that or how optimistic you are that you're going to get more insight into the justification the federal government is using to charge you criminally? Well, I don't know what's going to happen within that ruling because that, and that this is all public knowledge. This has all been in the public legally, so I can talk about it.

31:16So that's what my attorneys filed and they believe that that will be illuminating. And obviously if they file that, they believe that there is something in there that may show the abnormal, the abnormal tease. Is that right? The anomalies, abnormalities are the, yeah, are the anomalies or whatever in, in, in their, you know, prosecution of me, this went to three, it went to a magistrate judge and usually after the magistrate judge is just like, okay, well, that's it. That wouldn't do it. Then they went to someone else. And I think that either three and then they went to someone else. I think it was like three different tries or two or three different tries.

31:51And everyone said, no, we're not doing this. And then they took it to a grand jury. And you know, and they say, you can indict a ham sandwich with a grand jury or whatever. You're talking about the government running up various flagpoles. Yeah. Yeah. Various flagpoles until they found something. And I wasn't surprised. I knew that they would try to do it because they just couldn't be embarrassed. So right now, I feel that they're just prolonging their embarrassment. Um, so, you know, um, we'll see how the judge rules. And if there's something in there, then I think that's going to be problematic really for the government.

32:26And if there's nothing in there, if the judge, or if it is deemed that there's nothing in there, that it wasn't, um, abnormal, then so be it. But still, I still think that it's at the end of the day, it's going to be, I'm going to, you know, end up on top. I'm going to end up the winner in this. I think maybe you already have done. In a way. That's, I've heard that. Why do you say that? I just feel like, first of all, I mean, I know, I know it's been difficult and I want to kind of talk a little bit about the arrest part, but it is brought to the fore in such a concrete way, the way this administration is going after people, the inherent racism of its maneuvering.

33:06It's given you an extraordinary plot. People are really paying attention to what's happened to you, what's happening to you. And I'm not just saying that from like a business level, but I just mean, you know, your voice is essential right now. Your struggle is, I'm not going to say universal, but it's much bigger than you. I mean, and it really crystallizes the essence of this administration, which is all of its fascistic impulses, it's the authoritarianism that is, you know, the order of the day. I mean, in that way, it has been a victory for people who've had a hard time really pinpointing the malignant nature of what's happening right now.

33:44Although, of course, you're still facing trial. So let's talk a little bit about what's happened to you in the sort of – first of all, were you freaked out by the fact that, you know, you're an independent journalist? And there is some safety, like being part – as someone who used to work at MSNBC, now MSNOW, there is some safety. There's a whole bunch of lawyers that work for these big corporations. It's huge safety. They just say, the lawyers will take care of this. And you just go, okay, you show up for whatever it is. Exactly. And you didn't have that, right? You do have incredible representation, but were you scared initially?

34:24About before or after? Just like as it's happening, you're like, oh, they're going to – I mean, they charge you while you're in Beverly Hills, I think, right? And like – well, maybe you knew this was coming because Trump was telegraphing all of it. But like when it first happens, are you like, oh, God, like I got to – I'm on my own here. No. Alex, I am – as Dr. King says, I'm not fearing any man. I don't fear that kind of thing. I am lucky and fortunate enough to have some agency and the ability to be able to fight this. And there are people who cannot. There are people who cannot pick up the phone and call Abby Lowell and say, will you represent me?

35:06And so for those people, that's where out of this process, I've learned more and become appreciative of the folks who are able to do this. like myself. And there's a greater understanding of what people, some people cannot do this because I know it's a very expensive process. It's a very taxing process. And so people are all the time, even by this government, maybe they don't have the resources to be able to do it, but I'm very fortunate somewhat. It's really, I mean, that doesn't mean that I can afford to go the distance with the government, but we'll see. Was I angry? Was I scared? No, I wasn't afraid.

35:49I was, the only time I was a little bit startled when they grabbed me in the elevator because I thought I was being mugged. This is when they first are charging you. Yeah, when they finally did. Now, before that, they were saying that they were going to do it. Yeah. And I'll give you something that nobody else knows, is that before that, there were people who were parked outside of our home in New York City and would follow us when we got into the car. And I have never said that to anyone. And I don't know who they were, but usually people don't follow me. A group of cars don't follow me when I'm going to eat dinner with my friends or when I call an Uber or whatever.

36:31And so that was a little bit unnerving. The nerve, even if you have not gotten permission from a judge or a court to be able to detain me, then you shouldn't be able to follow me. You know what I'm saying? You should not be able to follow me around. So that was a little, you know, innocent until proven guilty. And then once that happens, okay, let's do it. So there was frustration in that. And when I said it was a little startling, but there was some frustration in that this was all so unnecessary. Because the reason I wasn't afraid is because I have people who are in the business and they're saying, they said to me, we're hearing your name a lot.

37:19They're speaking from folks who are in power. So maybe it's time for you to get a war room and maybe you should reach out for some representation. And I did that. So I felt like, okay, if this does happen, then I'll be taken care of to the extent that I can be taken care of. But it was also unnecessary. It was a waste of resources, a waste of tax dollars, because the first thing my attorney did was send them a letter saying, if you are serious about this, then let us know. Let's get this process started. He will self-report and turn himself in. Nothing. Instead, whatever, 20, 25, whatever people show up.

37:57And it's like, why? If you had just called me and said, I would say, okay, I'm jumping in a taxi. Give me the address. I'm going to come down but it's a waste of tax dollars they did it because they want to you to be afraid and because they want to embarrass you I was neither embarrassed nor was I afraid and on the other side I realized once I come out of this I have a story to tell and I have a platform whether people are on my side or not yeah whether I have public support or not I'm going to fight this to the end and I'm going to do it in the courtroom and I'm going to stand up to you and I'm not going to be afraid and I'm not going to stop doing what I do because I'm a citizen of this country and I have a first amendment right not only for freedom of speech but for freedom of the press and if there's anyone who is

38:53deserving of all the rights and privileges that go along with this right if there's anyone there's is someone who whose ancestors came here involuntarily yeah and who has faced discrimination and racism and whose ancestors were came over in chains and And so I believe it's me. I believe it's people like me. And for those people, that's why I'm standing up. They're not going to silence me. I'm not going to be afraid, no matter the outcome of this. No matter. I'm still going to be here, still doing my thing.

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41:51It was never in question whether Don Lemon was a shrinking violet, right? Like that's never been your brand, right? But I kind of wonder, you know, you and I have both made the move from establishment media to independent media, right? Me from MS Now, you from CNN. We won't go into the circumstances of those departures. You're still there though. You still have a big Yes, I go and hang out with my buds on set sometimes. But, you know, I'm not working. That's not my home anymore. And CNN isn't your home. And you have built a new home for yourself. And an extraordinary one at that. I wonder, you know, how that transition has changed your approach to journalism.

42:37And, like, the way – first of all, let's just say right up front, it is a hustle, right? Like it is full on. We're both working real hard. You're working harder than I am. But like, do you think that, you know, being out there, being, you know, who you are in this new media landscape changed you and made you more tenacious? And especially in moments like, you know, when the Trump administration is coming after you? Yes. Yes. Now, I always felt, you know, I've always been tenacious. Yes. But I also think, and I don't want people to think that I'm criticizing. I'm not. But I think there needs to be more people like me.

43:25And even if you are afraid, you need to fight through that fear and stand up for the press. Stand up as a journalist. I believe that the folks who are in the White House press corps need to stand up more. They need to do what Richard Engel did with Benjamin Netanyahu the other day when they killed his mic, when they muted his mic. They need to continue to ask the question even as Caroline Levitt is calling on another reporter. Wait a minute. This is serious, right? They need to continue to ask the question when Donald Trump is being rude. And when Donald Trump calls someone a piggy, everyone in that press corps on the plane should say something.

44:02Yeah. And not ask the next question. And they would say, my colleague who you call a piggy, which is, you know, the president of the United States, I'm surprised, sir, that this actually came out of your mouth. My question is her question. So I have, so I believe that people should be more tenacious. I believe that journalists, and I've always believed this, maybe I'm naive, they're like doctors and lawyers, do no harm. and the way to do no harm to the public is to fight for um fight to have them educated to be informed and to stand up to power and that's what we're supposed to do so i think every journalist in this time should be doing that and even the journalists who are in corporate media and i know it's i know you're worried about you know you got to pay for your kids private school.

44:51You got to do all these things. I get it. But I think if more people stood up to the corporation, to the conglomerates, to the powers that be, to the gatekeepers, I think we would be in a better place right now. And especially the people, even more so than the journalists who are sitting at the desks or out in the field, who are in war zones, even more so the people who are assigning them to these positions, who are putting them on the anchor desks, who are deciding who gets to be on what program. They should be standing up to the powers that be as well, because that's what journalism, we're supposed to do without fear of favor.

45:26We're supposed to do it, we're supposed to hold power to account. Otherwise, then you get a dictatorship and authoritarianism. So I've been surprised by, and especially my exit from CNN, I was surprised by how many people lacked the courage to be able to say the right things and do the right thing. And how many people were just, just wanted to survive. And if you're a journalist, you can't just want to survive. You have to, you have to want to protect the constitution and you work for the American people, not for the government and actually really not for the company. You work for the American people.

46:12I feel like it's like your essence is in full flower. Like you were destined for this. Like you're out there. You're like, you're out there. I mean, you're out there. Do you think I'm nuts though? Because am I naive? I really do believe that. It's what the moment demands. I mean, but the other thing, the thing that I think people, you know, if you are a lemonhead, you know this, but like one of the things that really does set you apart is you're out there talking to people on the streets. You're like moving around. Yeah, all the time. After this, I'm going. Which is, why do you, first of all, as someone who loves field reporting, I think it's like the essence of journalism and we've completely lost it in mainstream institutional media.

46:49Why did you decide to do that? Why was that important to you? Because I noticed that there was a disconnect between what I was hearing, you know, on sort of the mainstream, I hate that term mainstream media, but that's what it is, between what I was hearing. and i also know when i when i did what the reason that i became an independent journalist is because you know i could have done something else or not done anything at all but the reason i took the path that i'm taking is because i wanted to be closer to the ground i wanted to be out there with people um and during the 2024 election when i started just going out doing man in the street interviews which you know i think are really important because most interviews are man if you If you go to breaking news and you're talking to people that were there for the breaking news, that's man on the street, right?

47:37And that's actual, that's journalism. And when I started talking to people during the 2024 election, I started hearing a lot of Trump. I like Trump and from demographics that I didn't expect to hear it from. And it was eye-opening and illuminating to the response that I got. Well, to hear it, considering what you were, you know, sometimes what you hear on the news. And then the response that I was getting from different news organizations, like some of the liberal folks and people who are liberals, why are you doing this? Are you curating these things? I'm like, no, I'm just, this is just, I'm doing it.

48:13And then on the right, come on our show. Oh, or, oh, this wasn't the answer that Don Lemon wanted. This guy owned him. And I'm like, no, that was the exact answer that I wanted, whatever their answer is. Yeah. That's the answer that I want. Because I want, and guess what? if I was embarrassed by it, dumbass, I wouldn't put it on the internet. I wouldn't put it out on, you know, on my channel if I was, or on my social media, if I was embarrassed by it. And if I had any sort of fear or was embarrassed by what people are going to say to me, uh, people who may not like me, I know that there are people out there who don't like me.

48:47I get it every once in a while. Most of the people, I, you know, I like you or whatever. And there's some people like, eh, but so I actually go out and I do, I, you know, an IRL in real life live. I do man on the street live and not everybody is in love with me. And I put that out there too, because that's real. That is real. And that's what being transparent is about. And so really it's not about me personally and I'm not embarrassed by it. Okay, fine. So, um, you know, that's why I did it. Yeah. That's why. And I think that maybe, I guess that's why I'm successful. If you see me that way, I'm too close to it.

49:23I don't know what success and what isn't in this whole streaming thing. Well, what I've noticed is, first of all, in the new media landscape, when you break out on your own, so much of it is actually about your personal resonance with the audience. And there is a much more intimate relationship between your audience, people watch you in new media than there is, I think, in broadcast. Would you agree with that? Or I don't know. I mean, do you feel like it's the same? Do I think more people watch me in new media? Well, I feel like they have a more, it's a closer relationship like i mean like i bet i'm sure lemon heads as a concept existed while you were at cnn but now it's like a bonafide like subscription tier people wear the sweatshirts like it's a thing and that seems to be to me at least unique in like new media that that they want that connection they want that sort of tribal kinship with the people that they they follow on youtube or Substack or whatever?

50:18More than anything, I think, is that they want authenticity. Yeah. And they want people they trust. And if I just happen to be a familiar face and someone who had been out there and in their living rooms long enough for them to know me and I gained trust from that whole CNN experience. But also I think that that came from me as well, as you're saying, being tenacious. And then just being myself in front of the camera, the same person that I am in my everyday life. And I think that that resonated with people, didn't necessarily resonate with management all the time. But if they were smart, they would lean into it.

51:00And even some of the things that were like, oh, my God, I can't believe you said that. They should, I believe that journalism organizations should lean in and have a conversation about them. And say, but this is what you do. But they're afraid. Oh, my God, we can't do this. what are the advertisers the audience so um i think that it's authenticity is what people want and they want people they trust and they also want to feel connected when i first started doing this it was a different thing that i was going to do and then i realized it's like you know what i'm doing is very similar to what kind of what i was doing at cnn i mean no no interaction with my audience it feels canned and i'm just gonna sit in my living room and do a show every day called Live at Five, where I just talk to the people and do the stories they want and sort of give my point of view.

51:50And it worked because that's what people want. And so now, as you were saying, it's a thing because people feel that they know me and they can trust me and that they are actually a part of something. So what I did was build a community rather than a channel or a program. And I think people were looking and are looking for community in this moment, but they're also looking for people who are flawed, for people who are outspoken, for people who are not perfect, for people who are tenacious enough to stand up to authority, even if it's from the highest office in the land, or stand up to someone on the street, or be vulnerable enough to let someone criticize them live or taped.

52:33And so it's for me, it's just that's what it's about. And it's not really about me because if it was about me, I wouldn't invite people into my life and I wouldn't invite the criticism that I get just for being so transparent. Well, you may not think it's about you, but people who watch you want it to be about you. I mean, I think they want Dawn. They want to be Lemonheads. I think they want those things, but then I'm the one who's giving them those things. So yes, yes. But I don't think it's just about me, but maybe I don't know. I don't think your ambition is just to make it about you, but I think that it's you because it's you, people are attracted to it.

53:15They want it. Even the people that are paying to insult you online are paying to insult you online. You know what I mean? Cause I know you made note of this and I think it was a times piece. Like if you're making a nasty comment, you're paying to make that nasty comment. So bring it on. I mean, that's me paraphrasing you. Yeah, it's true. I know you addressed this on your show on Wednesday, but I do want to ask because we're talking about the sort of what broadcast is trying to mimic. And there's been a lot of reporting on this, how they're trying to capture some of the authenticity and roughness of like the sort of podcast universe.

53:46And CNN is trying to emulate the style of a podcast using Jake Tapper. And I know Fox News has a sort of similar model with Will Kane. What do you think when you saw that, what did you think of it? Well, I talked about it. I was, you know, I have to say, I just have to be real. Like I can't be fake about it. I know that's why they're lemon heads. But the initial thing that I said, I thought it was a compliment to my colleagues who I think are the best in the business, the best journalists in the world. And so I was saying that they don't need tricks. People trust Jake Tapper because it's Jake Tapper and he's credible.

54:29People trust Anderson Cooper because he's Anderson Cooper and he's an iconic journalist. And he's built his name and his brand on being out there in war zones and dodging bullets and moderating debates and holding people accountable 60 minutes. Like that is, you know, that's some high level shit. And so I, you know, they can do what they want to do, but I don't think that they should be trying to make their anchors into podcasters because their anchors are anchors and they're in this elevated vaunted position because of that. And I think they need to own that and should not diminish the, not only the anchors, but those three red letters that mean so much to people around the world.

55:17And so it's not a, I'm not, you know, disparaging them. I'm saying maybe this ain't it. I'm going to just take it one step further. They shouldn't be trying to be me. If they want podcasters, Alex, hire some podcasters. Well, MS now is putting Runaway Country and Pod Save America and Crooked Media on MSNBC, which is another way to sort of retrofit it. But if you're talking about authenticity, you can't retrofit authenticity. It has to naturally spring forth from both the person and the place. Like you naturally, authentically have come to the position that you're at and you speak the way that you do and you are who you are, not because someone was like, Don, let's try it in your living room.

56:01And why don't you wear these glasses with this picture in the background. You just are doing you. And that's what, that's what works. And I mean, I, you know, the other piece of it is the tech part, which is it's going to be really hard to convince a 25 year old to get a cable subscription. Like there's just a fundamental fucking reality about who's consuming podcasts and what they'll pay for and what they won't and what they culturally and socially normally go or gravitate towards and linear cable and broadcast in general. I'm not saying this is a good thing for the news industry because I do think there's some utility to having newsrooms and authentic anchors with lots of experience.

56:37But the trend lines are not in that direction.

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59:25You know, I must ask you because CNN is on the verge of being run by the Ellisons. And we see what's happening at CBS. We see Barry Weiss mismanagement of CBS, a place I used to work. It has had the worst ratings they've had this century, Don. Barry Weiss is shepherding the worst ratings in CBS's history this century. I'm not surprised. Do you hear from people inside CNN? Are you worried for CNN? You talk about those three red letters that mean so much the world over. Yeah. And I mean. Look, I loved, I loved CNN. I think CNN is obviously those three red letters. They do mean a lot, right? That there's credibility there.

1:00:10And again, I didn't like my exit. I thought they treated me poorly on the way out, but I'm rooting for them. I'm rooting and I'm rooting for them, not because of the management, because it was ultimately them, but because of my colleagues who are there, who are working their asses off, who are great journalists. And I don't believe that the people in positions of power and the gatekeepers are doing them any justice. And so that's sort of where my heart is. But I'm not surprised that CBS has its worst ratings, and I will tell you why. Because in this time that we're living in that is so unusual when you have such aberrant behavior by the highest people who are in the highest positions in the world and the highest office of the land and where you see that there's no truth to what they're doing, where they turn an insurrection into a walk in the park, where they exonerate and pardon the people who broke into the United States Capitol and smeared feces on the wall and peed on the wall and beat up police officers.

1:01:16Um, when they are, um, I can go on with a whole litany of things. And so if, when you try to, it's look, if you want to try to move a network to the right, when they say, look, they want to move the network to the center. First of all, where's the center? Where is this? Tell me if you find it. When you find the center, let me know. I just believe that there's truth to it. And sometimes the truth may be on the liberal side and sometimes the truth may be on the conservative side. But in this particular time that we're in, if you say I'm going to move the network to the right, people think you're going to move it to MAGA and it's going to be about disinformation and lying and racism and misogyny because that's what this is about.

1:01:57This is the wrong time to try to do that, first of all. And secondly, you don't try to move or change a network ideologically, a news network ideologically, because that's not what journalism is. Look, CNN tried it. They lost their core audience. There was no payoff for them, for the core audience. And kind of what they're doing now, there's no payoff for it, except if people are wondering, like, what the hell is going on? This is just like a sort of another whiplash moment for the people who are watching CNN. So I believe if CNN goes down the same road that CBS does, and they're going to need a miracle to get out of it.

1:02:36So I'm not surprised that they had their lower ratings because people want the truth right now. They want people to stand up to authority. They don't want false equivalents. They don't want people coming on just to lie. They don't want people who are being just booked on shows just to fight. There's nothing productive about it. People want the truth. Some things are objectively bad. And much of what the MAGA administration, Donald Trump administration is doing is objectively bad for not only people, but for the country and for democracy. And people want that reflected, the real world reflected on the news when they turn the news on, whether it be on broadcast cable or even in streaming.

1:03:19I got to just on that last point. I'm done. No. No, you're not. Because I have to ask you this. Candace Owens is always, I think, in the top 10. She's always ranked in the top five on Apple news podcasts. Does that worry you? I mean, because I'm with you on people want authenticity, but I think people have been lulled by a lot of these MAGA personalities that they're the truth tellers, that they're the ones that actually have the readout on what's up, what's real. But I think you're making my point because you're never going to, I'm not talking about the MAGA folks. That's a cult. Those people have, the people on the right have cult-like fans and viewers because it's just the nature of conservatives.

1:04:05Maybe they felt like their voices weren't heard for so long and they actually got into these streaming places. They were pioneers. So that's one reason they're doing so well. But the people who listen to Candace Owens, they're not going to, I'm sorry, they're not going to watch the CBS Evening News. They're not going to watch CNN. they're going to watch Megyn Kelly. They're going to watch Candace Owens. They're going to watch Tucker Carlson. They're going to watch people who are preaching their gospel at every single turn. And if you want to be a news organization, if you want to deal with facts, and as you said, shared reality, right?

1:04:38We talked about that. Then you're not going to watch those, not because they're bad. It's just because they're truthful and balanced if you do it right. But if you try to move it to the right, they're not even going to watch that because they don't don't trust that. And that's actually not where the news is going right now. They're going to watch Fox News. And they're going to watch, as I said, all the other people and the Nick Fuentes of the world and all of that. That's what they're going to do. I'm just, it worries me though, that they are seen as, I mean, you're saying forget, forget it. They're part of a cult, unless you're going to like, what is it when you get someone out of a cult, de-escalate?

1:05:15No, what's it called? Deprogram. Deprogram. They need to be deprogrammed. I don't look at those people as journalism or journalists. I look at them as influencers and streamers. I'm talking about the people who do what I do, what Pod Save does, what The Bulwark does, what Sam Sater does. Like people who are bringing information and have a shared sense of reality. But then they have some swag, right? Then they lean into it. They have their, the editorial has teeth. You know where they're coming from. Right. You don't expect to see someone calling, insulting a black woman to her face about a Barack Obama and a Michelle Obama tweet from the president where he depicted them as apes.

1:06:09And then you're going to have someone come on and go, that's not racist. And then you're just like, of course it's fucking racist. Why are you doing this? It's racist. And so, you know, I'm not talking about those folks. I'm talking about a place where that us who are doing this now are and have success in it, that we're coming from a more factual, informative, truthful place where we don't try to say, well, this is the middle and that's right and that's left. Sometimes my subscribers don't want to hear what I'm saying. But I tell them, look, I know you probably don't want to hear this, but here's the truth.

1:06:45And then at the end of the day, they'll say, thank you for informing us. I may not like it, but thank you for informing us. So that's that. I mean, then that is an important distinction. I mean, look at the success. Look at Pod Save's success. Look at Brian Tyler Cohen's success. Look at, you know, it's, and these people, I don't believe that they are, they may be some of them left leaning and that's okay. they're transparent about it, but at least there's facts and a shared sense of reality. And they're not saying, well, the first lady of France is a man. Nobody's saying that on the left. Outrageous shit like that.

1:07:24You know what I'm saying? So. It's not propaganda. And I think that there's an established sort of baseline of truth and the pursuit of, you know, reality. I will ask you, my friend, before we let you go, two things. Yes. Hopefully you like answering both of these questions. You are, I mean, I just, it is, like, it's not a coincidence that I'm talking to you the week this massive profile comes out about you in the New York Times. Like, there's national interest in what you're doing, the fight you're fighting against the Trump administration. You've always been in the public eye, but this feels like a different level, right?

1:08:06Like you're in, as they say - This is why you're a great reporter. I know where you're going, but yeah. You're in your power. Dare I say, you're in your prime. And I wonder, I'm giving you a chance. Like has this, what you're doing now, and I'm not trying to air out anybody's age here, but like this is not the normal like sort of metabolism, the normal career arc that we see, right? After you've been in the game for some decades. Like has it changed your idea of what it means to be in one's prime and when that happens? No, because I think that that whole thing about not being your prime, that was misconstrued.

1:08:48And the one thing that I, that if there was one thing that I could, that bothers me the most of anything is that whole thing. when I said, if you go back and look at it, I said, I'm not saying that I believe that. The whole point of it was that that is how society treats women. And someone who has been treated or discriminated against should know better. If you have been, especially with the way the Republican Party has treated her, they're like, we don't want her, right? We don't want Nikki Haley to be president or whatever. Oh, I think Democrats, plenty of people like have a hard time with women over 40.

1:09:23Yes, but so, but it wasn't - Women have a hard time with women over 40. Exactly. But that's how society treats women. And you should know better. So you shouldn't be an ageist when someone has been sexist or misogynistic towards you. You should have more knowledge than that. And I think people understood. Some people understood when she was like, what was the Civil War about? It wasn't about slave. She didn't say it was about slavery. And then other things about. So when that came out, some of her ideas were just not for the prime age. But that wasn't necessarily about that. I thought that about women.

1:09:58I don't. I think the exact opposite. I think women are the smartest and strongest of the sexes. And every show that I had at CNN was run by a woman. and our motto was, if you want something done, hire a woman. We hired all, mostly women. I had, finally at the end, I had one, my personal producer was a man, but every single pretty much person on the show, my lead writer, woman. And I grew up in a family of all women. So that is, that's the one thing that bothered me is because that people took that out of context. I could have been a better communicator about it since that's what I do for a living.

1:10:41That's, living, but that's not what I meant. And I told them that I think they understood it. And you know, you know how that works. Right. So, so, so what I will say is that do, do I think that I'm in my prime? Absolutely. Of course. I'm not delusional. I'm not, you know, I can't run 10 miles and not die anymore, but you know, I need more sleep. I have to think about people's names. Like, wait a minute what's what's that over that guy and it's like it's your husband his name is tim oh yeah i'm just kidding so i'm not delusional but yes i do think that because of the that um i've surprised myself in what i've been able to do over the past two years yeah do you think you might ever run for office oh boy that was a long pause done uh i hear that all the time uh-huh yeah and then what do you think what happens in your head when you hear it first i hear i don't want to ruin my life why would i invite that sort of even more criticism and whatever i don't why would i want to ruin my life with people digging into you know everything about me and uh and uh and campaign ads putting everything that i've ever said that It's deemed controversial.

1:12:04But I don't even think people would care about that. So I think they would know. Right. I've never said that I was going to grab anybody by the pussy, right? So I've never said that a woman had blood coming out of her wherever. But also, I'm not a white man. And the rules are different for me. And so just like the rules, I believe, sadly, are different for women. They're different for Hillary Clinton, for Nikki Haley, which was one of the reasons that, what I meant to say, they're different for Kamala Harris. They're different for Alex Wagner. And white men get away with way more than women or black people or any minority.

1:12:49And so I think the rules are different, but I don't know why would I invite that criticism. And, you know, my, uh, the people who my mentors will say, why do you want to take a pay cut? But it's not about money for me. So do I ever think about it? Yes. Could it happen? Yeah, it could happen. If the opportunity presented itself, the right opportunity presented itself. Look, if I wanted to, I know people are going to think I'm crazy. This is going to be the headline and people are going to laugh about it. I think I could be president of the United States. I could definitely run this country better than Donald Trump.

1:13:29A paper towel roll could, but yes, you would be a market improvement. As an independent, though, there would be a hard time for me to run for anything because, you know, the way the system is set up, I'd have to choose a side. And so, you know, I probably would have to become a Democrat. And yeah, so, you know, am I at that point now? No. And I know people are going to say Don Lemon is crazy, but yeah, that's look, why can't I think about running for office? Why can't I think about being president of the United States when look at what we have, when anybody, did anybody think Barack Obama, as he says, this guy with a funny name is from a mixed background.

1:14:09Did anybody ever think that he would become president, that he had that aspiration? I don't have an aspiration to become president, but I do think that I could run this country a lot better than Donald Trump. You know what else I think that I could run better than most people. And I actually talked to my husband about that last night. Please tell me. A news organization. Because I was there. I'd been in the game for so long, and I'm not interested in being the anchor out front. I could come in and fix the bulk of their problems and lickety split in no time flat. Boom. Wow. I feel like we're making news.

1:14:47The Lemonheads merch is about to become collector's item. Yeah. So I'm busy now. I'm building my own channel and I'm building my own network and we'll see where that goes. But if I had to, like, if they dropped me into a news organization, I could, I could fix it up. I could clean up the place. Don Lemon is ready to conquer the world. Ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here first. I can't wait to see the headlines about the president part. God bless you for launching your presidential run on a pod save America. We appreciate it. That would be the perfect place to run. And I forgot, I mean, look at also too.

1:15:25You're definitely running as a Democrat if that's the case, my friend. And I forgot about Midas. So yeah, I totally. Well, that's why I'm saying thanks for launching it on Pod Save America. Yeah, why not? You know where your bread is buttered. Don, I knew it was gonna be excellent to speak with you, but you've, as usual, exceeded my conception of what was even possible, so. Well, thank you. I'm sorry that there are certain things that I can't talk about legally or whatever. I think you delivered, Don. I really think you delivered. You think so? I hope so. You gave me big time. You definitely did.

1:15:59Yes, but go out, journalists. Yes. Be bold. Be tenacious. Be unafraid. Go talk to people. Be unafraid. Unbothered and unafraid. Just like Don. Thank you, my friend. It's great to talk to you. It's great to have some time with you. Thank you. And become a subscriber of the Don Lemon Show, YouTube, Twitch, Substack, Instagram. TikTok, Facebook, wherever you get your streaming, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and iHeartRadio. There are many opportunities. Like and subscribe. Go and love Don. Thanks, dude. Thanks to Don Lemon for coming on the show and breaking news. It's always a pleasure to have you, Don.

1:16:40John and Levitt will be back in your feed on Tuesday with a brand new episode. See you all soon. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Pod Save America is a Cricket Media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reid Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics.

1:17:14The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

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