Berlant & Novak Remix: When We Were Girls

0:00Hello! Hags, eavesdroppers, free feeders, and premium subscribers. as hinted, change is afoot. Make sure you're signed up at poogpodcast.com for big updates ahead. This month, we're working hard behind the scenes to get everything ready. In the meantime, we've got a trove of special episodes celebrating the past 15 months of Berlant and Novak. Now please enjoy the first of our celebration eps, Berlant and Novak Remix, When We Were Girls.

0:39Saw some girls on my block selling Girl Scout cookies. Really? Pretty cute. What's the deal with that? Well, I sold them as a kid. So my best friend as a child was a Girl Scout. Right. So I would always get the samosas, samosas at her house. Samosas are unbelievable. The thins, the mint thins. Thin mints. What is... Samosas and mint thins. That is my question. Is this you outside of culture, you know, fresh, kept fresh by your parents? what are the girl scouts where does the money go do you see what i'm saying who's what is this okay it's still fine whatever the girl scouts what do they do now because if it is about camping i'm pro right is it really girls going hey here's how you tie a knot here's how you start a fire let's all get together have sleepovers or is it or is it weird guys going like sell the cookies and the money goes to like Halliburton.

1:33Like I don't, where does the dollar go? Don't recall. Okay. It's not charity. I think it went, I think it might've gone to the Girl Scouts organization. Okay. But I, I, I don't recall. And it might've genuinely been charity. I don't, I don't recall. It'd be cool if the girls themselves got the money. I'm like, yeah. Um, maybe that was what happened. What's going on with inflation? How much is a box? No clue. I feel like they used to be like nine, but, but what was exciting about them? I mean, do you want to know? of my Girl Scout cookie selling experience. I want to know, but so you were a Girl Scout.

2:04What did you do? What does that mean? What is that culture? I have so much to say about it. It's like, it's so deep. Okay, go. I can't believe we ever talked about this. I know. Well, first of all, there was a point, and this is so me, I think you'll understand. There was a point where I quit the Girl Scouts and the troop disbanded.

2:22I am, if nothing, the leader. Okay. How do they make the groups? This was the vibe, okay? So in my town, in the school system, in our school, there happened to be two troops, and they're troops, by the way. What are they called? Is it a number? Yeah. I was in 1032. So it's basically like the military. It's like soft military for little girls. No, it's... I hear numbers like that, I go, it's the military. 10-4? I think it was just, you know... Okay, sorry. I'm just going to let you talk. I'm just like dying. Like, what did you do? Did you go camping? Did you learn knife skills? Yes. Oh, my God.

3:00Okay, I'm in. Okay, so, you know, there was a troop I was part of. It felt like the vibe was someone, like a parent decides, like, I'm going to be a Girl Scout troop leader, right? Or me and my other adult friend are going to, we're going to form a troop, you know, of whoever. And like, in my, it was kind of interesting, because I remember this feeling of like, there was our troop, and then there was this other troop. And sort of, how did that happened you know what I mean like and I don't know what size they're limited to you know but there were enough there was enough interest for there to be two two troops so my troop so it started we were we were brownies okay that's what it's called yes they had these brown uniforms and so cute it wasn't you know until you got older or whatever that you moved into the green and the green that forest sort of green of of girl scouts but brownie is like the early memory like this little brown vest and you know the costumes of course i mean of course is a huge part of the appeal right like a little a vest with a little like felt thing pinned and whatever and i think this was something okay and uh you know we meet as a group weekly it's an activity whenever there's like groups there's just always like widespread rape and sexual harassment it's like so people get together and it's just like well well here we go because that was the thing what I remember is here in Boy Scouts.

4:22There was like also like, yeah, it was like organized sexual violence. And then of course, obviously without saying there was all this like homophobia. Duh. And it was just like, it's just so crazy. Like whenever there's a group, whenever there's an adult, like I'm organizing a group. You're like, what are you going to do? Yeah. Well, also, there's an organization like you have something that can have rot within. You have something that can be, you know, it's like there's an organization. Now there's channels for poison. Yeah. You know, like, should groups be so solid? Maybe they shouldn't. Well, yeah.

4:57You know what I'm saying? If you give it a name. Decentralized leadership. Yeah, I guess that's what I'm like. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Who was your group leader? Managing the group. Who was your group leader? So it was a friend's mother. It was a girl, and her mother was the primary. Okay. And so she's leading us weekly through these different activities. Okay. So is it like, okay, we're meeting at three after school. I just don't understand how it's working. Okay. And then what happens? So I think we'd even be like in a classroom. I'm not sure, but I think we'd be in a classroom. Sometimes we'd be at someone's house or something like that.

5:27And it would be some activity, some learning. Like what? Like I remember first, like, for example, hearing the term herstory. Oh, my God. Okay, there was like a lesson on herstory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hell yeah. There were a couple camping trips, as you said. On those camping trips, I remember it was like we had to like get a knife, like a Swiss Army knife, and we like whittled sticks to sharp points. Oh, my God, amazing. And then use those to stab marshmallows, you know? Cute. That was great. But the kind of the infrastructure that I recall, okay, there was this book and this book that you flip through and there were things you could do.

6:05Oh, right. It was all about earning patches, okay, to go in your vest. So the group would do some activity and it was like, oh, we're going to get, and this is what the patch looks like, you know? And if we complete this activity. We learned how to read a compass. You know, like we're going to go clean up the river side. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Beach cleanup, I feel like was huge for the Girl Scouts over here. There were no beaches near us, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Pond scum. Yeah. So you do the thing and then you get a little patch. Yeah. But then there was this idea that like I remember being at home and it was this idea that you could do one alone, individual, on your own time and get patches.

6:38So I was going to breeze through do any of these interest me. You know what I mean? And, you know, it had a mix of activities. It was like, I'm sure it's even more so now, you know, like coding. Yeah. And then there were like the ones that I felt like a plot, like it was like the performing arts ones, you know, like it was almost like, oh, you could like organize a play, you know, or something, which like I, you know, had already done a few productions by the time I was third grade. And they were like, you can do it in class. And it was like we got through like, you know, the tiniest bit in first grade.

7:07Like I was like, we're going to need another seven days for me to complete the play. Yeah. But Wizard of Oz. I ran rehearsals in my basement. I was a tyrant. I remember trying to explain to someone, like, be inside the role. It was really great. Wait, so you quit. You were like, I'm done. That happened at some point because I'm always challenging enough for you. I felt like I had this weird, like, less than feeling in there. Like, it felt, you know, just sort of like, flipping through the book, well, what about the performing arts? You know what I mean? It was sort of like, it was wholesome at times, like, to a fault.

7:43You know what I mean? Like, it was. It's pretty goy. but a lot of like like my little best friend jewish she was a brownie yeah you so i feel like there were no oh there were there were my dad was a boy scout when he was like in the fucking 50s yeah so they so there were jews my dad had like yeah yeah well oh no absolutely yeah you know we we like to belong faction yeah i i i'd be tempted to ask my mother and report in a future episode Like, what was the vibe of me? I mean, I did a lot of, like, shall I quit this? Like, do I want out? I still have these dreams about whether or not I'm going to do field hockey senior year.

8:18Oh, my God. Let me guess. No. Well, I did do it. What? A little dyke? You do field hockey? Yeah. You think I am? I didn't know that. Oh, my God. It's four years. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? You did field hockey for four years in high school? I did a lot of things. I was social vice president. I mean, I was in student council for four years. She went to Dartmouth, folks. You're joking. I mean, not Dartmouth. Georgetown. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Imagine me like, imagine me giving speeches. Were you straight A's? Well, it was a 4.0 system. What speeches did you give? Election speeches. Because you were the president of?

8:55No, I mean like to win. And what'd you apply for or whatever? What'd you run for? Okay, my senior year, I think I ultimately ran for social vice president and got it. Social vice president meaning like prom? Not to diminish their duties. No, I mean, yeah. I've never heard of that, social. So. By the way, what does like the president of a high school, what do they do? Well, this is actually pretty interesting. So there's student council. Yeah. And then there's, I was about to say state government. Okay, but it's like student council and then class, president, class, secretary, class, whatever. Okay.

9:28So it was kind of like, you know, student council, federal. Okay. You're president of the whole school. You're, you know, managing all the grades. Right. So me managing. What could that possibly mean? Well, it depends, you know, it depends on what you promised, you know? Like, I remember this one guy trying to cut costs. Like, why are we paying the gym teacher to fill the soda machine when we could do it? You know what I mean? Like, this one guy, like, it was kind of like, fucked up. It was like, because we kind of want to give the guy the extra cash. Yeah. He likes doing it. Like, that could go, you know.

10:01Totally. But yeah, field hockey, four years. um i mean also lacrosse freshman year i was captain out of mere enthusiasm and the skills the skills fell apart lacrosse the thing with the net yeah that is crazy okay but also but also you have to understand at the same time i was you have to understand yeah okay at the same time i was in my like writing workshops okay so i was i was a i i was undercover is i was thinking about Like I was undercover in high school having high school experiences. Were you the most popular girl in school? No. What was I in high school? You were like the pretty girl giving BJs playing lacrosse?

10:42No. I guess no BJ yet. It doesn't. Oh, wait. What am I talking about? Of course. Sorry. Sorry. I mean, I mean my work. I know. Okay. I know. Trying to go number one. Imagine us in high school as friends. No, but I want there's what we would have been. Absolutely. Definitely. The reason I say no, no, no, I'm none of that. I'm none of that. Okay. It's because I was not. Do you have desires to lead? I don't have desires to lead. I'm kind of like, I don't like. I did then, I think, because like when there's nothing but fools around. Yeah. Someone's got to step up. Yeah. But I have no interest in trying to manage society.

11:17I like I, you know what I mean? Of course. Yeah. But it's like I was doing all the high school stuff. OK. But I was undercover in my mind as like a writer. Yeah. OK. So I was like, I was like living out eventual memoir. But of course, if you're conscious of that. Did adult teachers have issues with you? No, I formed really. Did I try to shut you down? No, I mean, I was teacher's pet. I mean, my relationships with teachers were. Yeah, no, I mean. Bulletproof. There was a letter sent. I still text with them. The letter, like the principal would write these letters to the seniors. And mine was about how I could like carry a conversation with teachers.

11:52Or like how I notably like seemed to like have like adult relationships with the teachers. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but there were girls who I think are what you're talking about. OK, the teachers like like I don't mean to say they were uncomplicated. You know what I mean? But I mean, like they were they were they were the thing where I'm always conscious of being anything. Yeah. And I was not like I like my interests were. I mean, it's also, of course, school paper. How did you use? It's funny. You struggle now with time management. right you talk about this it's like how did you even I'm hearing lacrosse I'm hearing yeah vice president I'm hearing newspaper I'm hearing directing plays well that was first grade but yeah yeah I think this the schedule yeah I mean field hockey love a schedule you know right after school I mean there were meetings I have a memory because you know they wanted me for varsity basketball yeah i'm sure they did it's pretty good in those but i uh couldn't do it because it interfered with my play schedule and i had to choose am i going to be a thespian or am i going to be an athlete but i have memories of like early i want to say ninth grade after school playing basketball and i can like feel it like the power of sports a physical exertion because i'm secretly an athlete but i you know can't i hardly work out i don't engage in these things yeah but the secret like i secretly am in basketball yeah and i can remember like gym sounds like the was all outdoor oh outdoor court being los angeles yeah and that's crazy like the the exhilaration of after school sports yeah it's kind of nothing to say here i'm having a private i'm having a private memory no no no but it's tactile i am freshly cut grass it's christmas time see that's amazing because obviously christmas time freshmas you know like me cold snow and then i'm like i think like i lived in the swiss miss hot chocolate packets after school so i also was like sunken into like depression and also like you know undiagnosed add yeah so it would be like my mass user being like i was pulling me aside and being like do we need to talk to someone about like bipolar like yeah whatever like why do you have a 98 on this test and like a 22 on this one yeah you know what i mean like and whatever i mean i was it's like i don't know why this is all feeling very like on like this is all feeling very like i don't know this whole like describing myself in high school is like hell like i love it no they love it they love it and it's like not working like i can't explain like it's working trust me but like i was like me like i'm weird i'm i'm weird no but yeah but so i was fucking dealing i mean i was like you know massive i mean i i think i like sort of burnt out there's that version of like you know who I am now or something like that whatever like burnt out in high school like you know and just like self-flagellation like sobbing like with you know not like you know getting up at 7am and like doing practice SATs like in the basement of my own home at my own will.

15:00Damn. Because like basically it was like surrounded by people who were like getting yeah it was like surrounded by people who my friends who like and schoolmates who I did not perceive as being more intelligent than me. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. Of course. Okay. And, and yet it was like, but why are they succeeding on some of these things? Yeah. Yeah. I should absolutely be able to. And so it was like, my life was about fucking proving to myself that I could do all sorts of things, I guess. But I was like, I was like into film. Okay. I was like into film and lighting. I was the president of the film club.

15:36I know. Screening. Bigger and Blacker. I screened Bigger and Blocker in the library after school. No one came. So my best friend.

15:47I remember they did this game once in the woods as a child. Okay, no, it was on like a school trip where there were these woods activities. Like, you know, we all have to stand on a little piece of wood. The whole class has to get a little piece of wood. Like, how many can you fit on there? All these team exercises in the woods. Shit kind of perverted. I can't believe you had so much time in the woods. yeah totally this was separate this was like a school trip like two hours to like a nature thing or something okay so we played this like camouflage game where you know half the kids or whatever i forget how it goes maybe it starts with one kid sits there and then everyone else hides in the woods and they can hide as far as let's say 100 feet out or something and you have to spot them it's like you're trying to do camouflage okay and if you find someone and go i see you johnny okay Johnny comes and joins you.

16:38And now the two of you are looking for it. But you have to get closer and closer. Basically, the camouflage people, it gets harder and harder because they have to camouflage themselves closer and closer to the people watching. Okay? It's okay if you're not following. I know the listener is. I'm here. I'm here. I'm working. You used to be working overtime. Okay. In the eyes I'm trying. Yeah. So all to say, you have to get closer and closer and still hide. Just think of that. It's scary. And the people have to be able to spot you. It's scary. Okay? so one kid in an active literal genius and no it wasn't me okay laid on the ground

17:12they they subtly joined the group that was watching that's amazing i know that's a team leader that's genius is that not they're like they pretended they were out that's amazing i know i knew you'd die i was because i no one recognizes genius okay and honors you was only a child spotting it yeah i go my god the recognition of original i've told you about this this is a friend's story we can shout him out in captions you know because i need caught cheating by a teacher some some some some kind of like real cheat like like you know they're supposed to be working on this long-term project they don't get it done or they hand in some i forget what it was or no it maybe just didn't have the work doesn't matter i think i told the story about obviously the teacher bringing me of course i referenced this very morning i think we might have the bts when i go you lie remember i go oh yeah you're lying that's what that was Oh, my God.

18:21I didn't even know what you were referencing. I thought you were just saying that. And we probably have it on record. We can cut to that moment earlier. See, it's on Kate, Chris, Parents, Lou. Just so you know. No, I believe you. I don't think you're lying. You're lying. I thought you were just saying that. You're chuckling to myself. So, again, just for people just joining us, I'm not going to go into it deeply. But I had a cruel math teacher. I couldn't do math. I was in, you know, I was really struggling in math always due to the various learning disabilities. And that was a good student. Otherwise, math teacher, there was a there was a project that didn't really that there and there was a writing component.

18:55It was about cars. And my written component was unbelievably florid and poetic about a car. And then the math was all wrong. Right. And so she thought, well, I know that she isn't this girl's an idiot. She couldn't write this. So she lied about having found it on the Internet. brought me in said say after class this isn't your writing i start crying and she goes i found on the internet and i said you you lie you lie and um and then they had to bring in my english teacher my english teacher was like oh yeah kate can write this yeah kate can write this sweetie she may not be able to do math due to the various learning disabilities but she can write and i never got an apology i never got anything i'm silent can you imagine sickness every time i remember the head of the story i remember like the head of the high school coming in i go no they never because it just it almost seems like about a second source framing a child framing a child framing a child with with with i was 15 primary source evidence i mean secondary source point is hello

20:00i did a burger king ad or i did an audition as a child a burger king commercial not it was it's even more perverse than that it wasn't even an official burger king audition it was me doing like a burger king ad for a child agent and standing in front of them right going i like i did one of those not burger king but i did a fake ad mine like to post acting camp then brought into the to gold star talent all these pictures on the walls in new york city and they give you piece of copy that you know yep here go read this this fake ad for whatever yeah and i just remember i'd never heard the expression before because i was seven um when hell freezes over and pigs fly it was like the two of those or something and and i was like i don't know about this but my dad was there and he's like he's like you know what give a big smile at the beginning say the lines and give a big smile at the end.

21:02Love that. And like, that'll be pretty good.

21:09You know, I remember as a, as a kid getting these sort of not real rollerblades, but in that realm, and they had two options. One was white, purple, and pink, and the other was black and neon green. And they were clearly trying to go, you know, gendered, you know, options. I could not decide between these two colors. Picture it, black and green, black and neon green rollerblade or white, pink and purple. They're both amazing in different ways. Ultimately, you picked the right one. I went black and green. I'm talking about rollerblades as a kid. And here I did it again. But then my friend got the white, pink and purple.

21:50I was staring at them. And it just, here's a question. did you struggle as a child in kind of an obsessive way with picking the color? Yeah. Like I'm getting a shirt. Well, because it's one of the only, like the only way to like identify as a child or like self proclaim anything is like through color choice. Yeah. And, and then picking a color also, I don't know. I do this thing where I meditate on like, I imagine myself suddenly sick of the color. Mm-hmm. And I don't know. I mean, it'd be like I'd be standing in the gap for an hour. A hundred fucking percent.

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27:00It's so nice. They have something for every element of cleaning in your house. I truly can't recommend them more. You won't want to miss this blueland.com slash hags for 15 % off. That's blueland.com slash hags to get 15 % off. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Going down memory lane, talking about my old pediatrician, me going, Googling my old pediatrician's office, 10th street pediatrics and me going, Dr. Chartier trying to find images of my old pediatrician, finding google images of my old pediatrician office and being like memory lane naomi's like stop yeah wondering if it holds up we're wondering if it holds i'm like that's i was like i was like that's it that's the office like getting so when you did you have a moment i don't know if you go where you go oh my god i could look up everything yeah for my history there's probably an image somewhere now there's a couple things when you can't find something on the internet that's a shock yeah i know okay and there's a couple i've gone like when there's no trace you know it's pretty interesting in in fifth grade okay they gave us this test one day and it was clearly an initiative led by a new psychologist who had come who'd been brought to the school okay and must have been doing her doctorate or something okay i don't know okay but this woman sort of shows up suddenly she's part of the school's community okay and one day i feel like it was a rainy day, but that could have been projected.