REMIX: Poog 101

19:39Jacqueline Novak:forget because i want to go back because it's one of the most stunning things i've ever heard ever articulated what you said about going to the bathroom alone in the movie and that that's that's actually the most that's the most myself i've ever felt or the most i've never if i could just hold on to that interiority, as you said, and also that feeling of, of selfhood and of independence and yet remaining held within the social container of still being at the movie. You're so protected because everyone's in there. And it's also this feeling of, you know, where everyone is and you, and you also, it's the direct experience of knowing where you're going to return.

20:18Jacqueline Novak:You're leaving for a moment and you, you have absolute, you're, there's no way you're going anywhere else except back into that seat first of all like i mean like like maybe life is is the

20:28Kate Berlant:trip to the bathroom you know like in your soul your soul knows your soul knows that you get to return but like here's the other thing like i was as you're saying i'm like okay there's something also about the selfhood feeling more pronounced and sacred and actually kind of like lovely i don't hate myself when i go to the bathroom in the mirror i mean in the movie right there's something there's something about myself that they feel sacred and i think it's because this This is this is like let's say it's 200 people in the theater. It's like, you know, their brains are all currently entrained on this one experience.

20:58Kate Berlant:You're missing it. Yeah. And yet. But but there's something you're not missing, which is you're the only person. Let's say you feel that you're sometimes you can tell. I mean, it's like a small theater. You know, you're the only one not in there. Right. And you're like, they're all thinking and experiencing the same thing, like somewhat. You know what I mean? Like they're all in this thing. And I am not. I am one of them. Like, you also get to be like this hero, kind of. Like this individual who is briefly not.

21:27Jacqueline Novak:You broke away and yet you still belong to the group. Let's not even get started on the liminality of that place. That is the ultimate not me. You are not in the theater, but you're not not in the theater. Are you still seeing the movie? Of course you're still seeing the movie, but you're not seeing the movie in that moment. God. You have retained and insisted upon your own individuality, and yet you still completely belong to the group.

21:48Kate Berlant:Oh my God, wait. How do you feel about silence out in the lobby versus music out in the lobby during that experience? Because, or out in the, or the walk past. The walk to the bathroom. First of all, walking past the closed doors of other theaters.

22:01Jacqueline Novak:It's so cute. It's literally children asleep in their bed. Yes. And like, when you hear, when you hear also the little bit of the clamoring, oh, an action movie, right? Oh my God. That is, I mean, talk about cozy. the coziest feeling in the cozier world just like

22:20Kate Berlant:and you know like in those moments they're experiencing like that those gunshots or whatever or like those explosions on screen mean something to those people in the theater and they don't know it's no it's the din of the of the parents downstairs it's god it is yeah it's the party happening downstairs and you're asleep in your bed oh my god it's um it's it's like no its voice is floating up it's but the darkness like like oh and then i was gonna say i think it might also feel in a way i feel like that walk to the bathroom is the closest experience we have to what it might feel like to be a ghost walking the surface i was hoping you were gonna say to die

23:00Jacqueline Novak:well there's definitely a death feeling yes yeah like that's the closest to death i've ever come

23:06Kate Berlant:Because if you're a ghost, if you're a ghost, if you're a ghost and you're among, okay, it's the same thing because if you're a ghost among living people, right? Hundreds of them, let's say. You're walking down the street from New York City as a ghost, okay? They're all experiencing and, you know, entrained to this one level of reality. Same movie, which is Life on Earth. And you are witnessing it, aware of it, aware of their entrainment, know what they're looking at. but you are you are in those moments not a part of it yeah damn got it god that's good oh god that's fucking good i want to if we can identify these these kinds of liminal see it's it's not because it's not just you know there's too much here it is okay folks an epiphany to save us see look i was getting spiritual dollar signs which to me means it's the same thing as someone picturing the widget you know then they produce one million and oh look at the money they'll have i started to go we got to do this more we got to find more moments like this we can find more like this i

24:04Jacqueline Novak:know trust me jacqueline in his last moments i was like well here's a book there's a book in here and then i was like and i was like and here comes i was like this is film this is cinema how can i express this i'm like you're already expressing it you're actually in the microphone this is you are expressing the idea is here it's never enough i i need more and i and again i'm grasping wait

24:25Kate Berlant:there was an epiphany that not a major one you have oh i know what it is right they always say they're fools they're fools okay so go to your happy place okay now that's like a cliche you know like like it's like a meditative sort of guided meditation yeah well like go to your like you know like close your eyes go to a place that's comfortable for you go to the beach i'm like the beach is so loaded and the beach is so stressful but instead of go to your happy place they always make it they always make it space instead of time okay what about go to your happy time what about So the intersection of time and space is what they need to go.

25:00Kate Berlant:So, for example, if a meditation had led me to the hallway during a movie, see what I'm saying? It's always a location. They think location will automatically relax. What if it's, no, it's 4 p.m. on a Monday afternoon after school, okay? It's raining. By the way, this is working. Go. And you're at home, okay? And you put something, you make a little soup or something. You just heat it up, okay? and it's heating up and you're deciding what movie you're going to pluck off the shelf. All right. And put it in and the rain is on the roof. Oh, my God. Oh, and oh, and there's it's it's gray. No school tomorrow.

25:38Kate Berlant:Then there's the neon of the microwave light. That's always been huge for me. Yeah. The neon of the of the because I don't even want to say it's no school tomorrow.

25:45Jacqueline Novak:No, no, you're right. That's too easy.

25:47Kate Berlant:That's too extreme. Oh, yeah. It's more that you haven't hit the point where tomorrow feels like it's crushing you. Yeah, that's beautiful, Jacqueline.

26:02Jacqueline Novak:This message is sponsored by Raycon. With summer in full swing and so many celebrations happening this year, whether I'm heading to a backyard BBQ, running errands, or just enjoying the nice weather, my Raycon Essential open earbuds have basically become part of my daily routine. Raycon Essential open earbuds are a breeze to wear, and they're open ears. You can listen to music or podcasts all while still hearing what's going on around. Do you understand? It's called safety while enjoying audio delights. And they sound amazing, but again, are just so comfortable. You can wear them during a commute on an airplane.

26:37Jacqueline Novak:They sound amazing.

26:38Kate Berlant:They're comfortable to wear. Yeah, I've been loving them lately. And I got news for you. They're 20 % off if you want to check them out yourself.

26:46Jacqueline Novak:These earbuds sit just outside your ear canal so you can really get clear sound, but you can actually hear what's going on around you. And that awareness is perfect for working out, going on a walk, or if you just want to know what's going on around you. They're really light and the ear hook part rotates so they actually stay in. They don't fall out and they don't get uncomfortable. I've been using these constantly ever since they arrived.

27:08Kate Berlant:Whether I'm popping over to the gym or going to get a coffee or just working from home. These are the ones I reach for over, you know, other earbuds because I can still hear what's going on around me without sacrificing sound quality. I mean, honestly, they become a part of my daily routine.

27:24Jacqueline Novak:Raycon has over 3 million customers and the sound quality is just as good as the way more expensive brands. And if you don't like them, they have a 30 day guarantee. They have a lightweight and multi-angular hook, ultra light with a flexible ear hook that adapts to any ear for all day comfort and awareness. And you can connect to multiple devices and switch seamlessly without the hassle. They also have 36 hours of battery life, which I love, eight hours of playtime and 36 hours of battery with the charging case. You can charge them like once a week. I've been using these a lot since I got them.

27:55Jacqueline Novak:They're great for taking walks so that you're still aware of your surroundings, but you're able to listen to music and they're really comfortable. They're so easy to integrate into your daily routine.

28:05Kate Berlant:The Essential Open earbuds are a great option for everyday listening. Go to buyraycon.com slash poog open to get 20 % off. Thanks to Raycon for sponsoring.

28:26Kate Berlant:We are very excited to partner with Vuori.

28:30Jacqueline Novak:Vuori products are so versatile and comfortable. You can wear these clothes to work out, but then you can also head to the office or run an errand or meet up with a friend and not feel insane. I love how lightweight, relaxed and moisture wicking the four-way performance stretch is.

28:46Kate Berlant:Look, this is a Vuori household. We wear these joggers all the time. It started as a classic gift from my mother. And yeah, now that they're partners, I intend to expand my wardrobe. I'm just looking at the Halo Essential Wide Leg Pant. I'm looking at, ooh, leggings. I'm a fool to have never tried these.

29:08Jacqueline Novak:I love the Villa Wide Leg Pant. So comfortable, but then also great. You could even get on a plane in them. Love a Viore all the form bra. It's comfortable, really easy to wear during a workout. And I love the Halo Baby Tee. Love it super soft. The classic crew neck, cap sleeves. Really nice with any kind of bottoms for just a cute little active outfit.

29:34Kate Berlant:Viore is a huge part of my life, okay? These start for a lot of people, oh, gym. And then they go, wait, I need these in life. whether you're running errands, whether you're going to the office, whether you're meeting up with your friends, you're going, it's Viore time is what it is. And so I'm excited to really up my game with them.

29:52Jacqueline Novak:Viore is an investment in your happiness. For our listeners, they are offering 20 % off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash poog. That's viore.com slash poog. Exclusions apply. Visit Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

30:11Kate Berlant:Get 20 % off your first purchase at viore.com slash boog.

30:17Jacqueline Novak:And discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

30:32Jacqueline Novak:Electrolytes are key. Salt is life. element is salt but it's also delicious addictively so lemonade probably my favorite flavor watermelon raspberry i don't want to brag but i was hung over today and guess what i can actually hear it in my voice the gravel i did a pink lemonade element it was fabulous now they're

30:57Kate Berlant:doing element lemonade iced tea lemonade iced tea delivers element science-backed electrolyte formulation. Plus, naturally occurring caffeine, 50 milligrams, L-theanine, and polyphenols for a powerful blend of antioxidants. What are we talking about? Well, it's a formula they've designed to support a healthy lifestyle without hammering those adrenals or just destroying sleep. Unbelievable.

31:25Jacqueline Novak:Caffeine being added to Element. I stopped in my tracks. Kate, you realize that caffeine doesn't actually give you energy, right? I love caffeine, but as you know, you got to be careful with the way you're ingesting caffeine.

31:39Kate Berlant:No, it just blocks the receptors that make you feel tired. That's a painful truth and one that, well, I guess Element is interested in helping us navigate.

31:50Jacqueline Novak:The combination of the hydration with the electrolytes and Element with the caffeine stabilizes you and it can fit into your day in an easy way versus your usual ways that you go about getting coffee or procuring caffeine.

32:05Kate Berlant:Look, I drink Element because it all started with all the sweating and noticing that I felt better when I had an electrolyte drink during a deep workout or a sauna session.

32:16Jacqueline Novak:Isolated caffeine, the kind that's in a lot of energy drinks, hits harder and drops faster because there is just nothing there to smooth the curve. Tea, however, works differently. The caffeine comes bundled with L-theanine and polyphenols, and the way that it exists like that naturally in the world is the point. That's what gives you a noticeably steadier feeling. There's less of a spike and less of a drop.

32:42Kate Berlant:Element Lemonade Iced tea uses a full black tea extract. No, not isolated caffeine. Plus a meaningful dose of electrolytes free of sugar, artificial flavors, or other dodgy ingredients.

32:55Jacqueline Novak:It's built on the same formula as Elements Core Drink Mix, sodium, potassium, and magnesium at levels shown to support optimal hydration. Trusted by Stanford neuroscientists, functional nutritionists, and professional athletes across the NFL, NBA, NHL, and CrossFit.

33:09Kate Berlant:Get a free eight-count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase of element.com slash poog. Find your favorite flavor or share with a friend. And they have a no questions asked refund policy. Try Element and see how you feel. If for any reason you're not satisfied, well, Element's customer service team will take care of you.

33:34Kate Berlant:Do you have any dreams from childhood?

33:36Jacqueline Novak:Do you still remember early nightmares? I think I remember my first dream ever, which was that I was in some kind of gift shop, obviously a wonderland for me. And there was a carousel, the carousel of postcards. I know it well. Which used to be a really important thing for me, like the postcards, the carousel. And I'm looking at the carousel of postcards. And then there was just a witch there, just like a classic like witch. And that was, I think, my first dream because I was in a stroller. I was being strolled. I was in a stroller and I was observing the postcard carousel from the stroller. Oh, my God.

34:09Jacqueline Novak:And I once also saw a witch. It's like early childhood magical reality stuff where I thought I saw a witch on a broom like sail across the sky.

34:20Kate Berlant:Oh, fantastic.

34:22Jacqueline Novak:So cool.

34:23Kate Berlant:It was also like around Halloween. Therefore, legitimizing like that maybe it was. Well, I have a memory that I, you know, arguably could have been a dream, but I still like prefer to kind of stand by that. I saw the Easter bunny, which is like not even no one thinks that myth is real.

34:42Jacqueline Novak:Like, but no, I believe you're the Easter bunny after Santa. Santa was revealed to be false. I told my parents, I said, you have to tell me if he's real or not, because a lot of the kids are saying he's not real. And I just need you to tell me, is Santa real? And it was before school. And I remember my parents were like, yeah, it's not real. and i was like i wish i had never asked like i got a meltdown and then it was like weeks later i was like easter buddy's real though right oh no i was like not the easter buddy too that is so you

35:11Kate Berlant:like the anxiety appearing okay they're like easter buddy's right right because that voice easter buddy's right is what you do when you're like you're walking a thin line between safety and danger okay you know me and you're like if i if i just say it casually like this it's almost like the gods won't notice the gods won't notice if i just quickly ask for the thing i want to be true i know you're like the rabbit's real right the rabbit's real though if i say it quietly yeah because you don't want to be like the rabbit's real and then the universal screen bag no it's not so you're like right right you're like very specific of your psychology

35:42Jacqueline Novak:through gesture and i mean the tooth fairy don't even get me started loved the tooth fairy but i

35:48Kate Berlant:thought i saw the easter bunny downstairs i went down for a drink of water it was like a huge you know walking Donnie Darko bunny whatever yeah and um did the bunny look at you was there an acknowledgement I can't remember now I've lost it now I became too accepting of the idea that it was merely a dream and so I've sort of lost the memory but wait well you know my Santa Claus what they had to do no I had anxiety that I'm sure I've told you this I was like I'm so excited for Santa to come tonight I'm so excited for Santa to come tonight

36:24Kate Berlant:like and then like crying hysterically thus revealing they were scared as a little child that i was like terrified okay it was like so i was trying to like i was trying to be positive about it right i'm so excited for santa to get denied and then like crying and then it was like or this is how my parents describe it is almost like i'm saying i'm excited saying i'm excited And then like, it's like, but I'm saying it with an intensity that's revealing something under the surface. And then, um, then like a, like a freak out. And then, um, the fear, I was like, my fear was of surprise. Okay. Um, anticipation and surprise.

37:00Kate Berlant:And it used to happen to me if someone delivered pizza to our house, same thing. If I know something's coming, it's like this, when's it going to happen? So I was afraid that I would go to the bathroom in the night and run into Santa. Okay. Ah, Santa. like this this like i'm gonna head out into the hallway and see santa and that was frightening so i was really freaked out by it so what my parents told me it was really cozy okay was that well you don't have to worry okay because because um because santa has to get to so many houses yeah what he does he actually drops off some of the gifts in advance and so the gifts have santa is already the gifts are already here and they're hidden in dad's closet okay they're hidden in dad's office okay and so they're already here and we're gonna put them out isn't that the best it's

37:49Jacqueline Novak:that's so sweet no because what you're saying really rings true to me i know that you know that i do this now it's like let's say you're at a restaurant you know you're like you're have your you know i want the chicken pot pie right and they come over and they go we're out of chicken pot pie and you're devastated right but then you go well you know i'm actually excited to get the salmon you know and then like so and being like being like i'm actually looking forward to it no no this is actually exactly what should have happened and it was the mushrooms the whole time

38:13Kate Berlant:yeah yes and this is it's never been revealed on poog and i'm going to try to say it once in one sentence instead of the 70 sentences that got cut from a previous episode right i'm gonna try it i want to say the mushroom thing i'm gonna try i'm gonna try that was cut yes are you sure positive

38:29Jacqueline Novak:here i am saying it was the mushrooms the whole time assuming the listener knows that the deep listener will know what I'm referring to. No, right, right.

38:36Kate Berlant:No, no, it was cut because I internalized that it was cut as, oh, that was cut. Interesting. I thought that was so like important, but yes, I did take nine minutes to say it.

38:44Jacqueline Novak:And I will say just to preface, this is feels very, because this is such a, this is to me is evidence of you really knowing my deep psychology, like of how I feel so seen by you.

38:53Kate Berlant:And one of the great things about you is that you enjoy being seen, even called out, so to speak.

38:59Jacqueline Novak:Yeah. I'm not called out, called out's too like culturally loaded yeah but like if someone is observing you or knows you well enough to actually be able to maybe gently criticize is almost too strong a word but is able to kind of point out your own pathology to yourself yes divine divine and and you light up so it's really

39:18Kate Berlant:fun i love it but the mushrooms the whole time thing which you know could be a t-shirt um is simply i observed kate's psychology including my own sitting at a restaurant deciding what to order and we were deciding whether to get some kind of mushroom, a mushroom mousse as an appetizer, or there was a side of roasted melange of different mushrooms. We were deciding going back and forth and Kate was having a lot of anxiety. I mean, just, and the thing is we're in it together because menu anxiety, making the right choice, all of that is huge for me as well. So we're really going into it. Like life depends on it.

39:53Kate Berlant:And I, I got to a point where I was able to say that I really think it's the roasted mushrooms and we can get them as an appetizer, even though they're a side.

40:02Jacqueline Novak:Genius, by the way.

40:03Kate Berlant:Recommend to all listeners. A side can be an appetizer. It's huge. So like roasted mushrooms sound great. So yeah. So it was like, I was like, Kate, it's the mushrooms. Okay. Oh no. It was like, this is more what it is. I'm still, cause I'm not doing that thing yet. I go, I think we should get the mushrooms. I think the roasted mushrooms are going to be infinitely more satisfying whatever and kate this is the key of her psychology goes you're right it was the mushrooms the whole time okay and and and it was a mushroom the whole time like like like and what it revealed was kate's desire for something to have to be absolutely certain and so certain that it was inevitable right it was the mushrooms the whole time fate led us to it being the mushrooms and that puts her at ease it's huge it's so big to your psychology it's just so central for me not far from mine right it's like part of my psychology so i can recognize it in you desire for certainty and as you said

41:05Jacqueline Novak:fate this desire yeah inevitability yeah this absolute truth that my own behavior my own nothing could interrupt it that nothing could get me away from that it was always going to be the mushrooms and i can surrender forever but and that certainty is like so much of something i chase and something I'm having to let go of right as I strive to be an adult but wow but it's also it's

41:27Kate Berlant:also I think there's something very joyous and it's almost a hyperbole as you know maybe this is one of the lovely facets of the hyperbole that you and I so enjoy and that Trump almost took from us I don't want to talk about Trump but but anyway it was like we start now we start talking about trump right do the entire um yeah what if what if what if was like what if was like cheeto man

41:53Jacqueline Novak:cheeto man over here

41:57Kate Berlant:he wants to sleep with his daughter oh my god who doesn't what if became like just hell what if was us being like 2020 was a dumpster fire i know i know so wait where were we because It was deeply exciting. Oh, the mushrooms, right? The certainty. And then I'm trying to think where else. And so, oh, hyperbole. So it's like, it's like one of the joys of hyper. That is a version of hyperbole to me that's joyful is to just choose to believe that it was the mushrooms the whole time. Like, isn't it more fun? And we love doing that, right? Like, I feel like even like when we would go to like you imbued Russian samovar or whatever samovar in New York City on like 57th and 8th or something.

42:38Kate Berlant:And like, and you imbued that with a kind of meaning. Okay. And you get into this thing where it's got to be Samovar. It's got to be Samovar. We got to go to Samovar. OK. Yeah. And then it sort of takes on this meaning that's another level. And it's like it's like it's fated to be that restaurant. It's fated.

42:50Jacqueline Novak:Yes.

42:51Kate Berlant:I just should we talk about restaurants a little bit for fun?

42:53Jacqueline Novak:It's no, because I'll start weeping because it's the only purpose of life is to be in restaurants. And but you're right.

42:59Kate Berlant:There's certain when was the restaurant invented is a huge question for me. I have a theory, but I'm not sure. And I guess what? You've never considered it. Right. You've never considered it. I completely I'm stunned. All right. Maybe. Okay, we'll go to break and you revel in that. Okay.

43:15Jacqueline Novak:I just want to say that I wanted to spread a lie and I was even considering really kind of starting to spread it. I was going to spread a lie that I went to Juilliard because I was like that actually, I think if you, if people thought I went to Juilliard for acting, I would never say that. No, I guess I was considering like, what if just I started telling people to kind of start slipping that into conversation? Then I did go to Juilliard. Because I did go to Juilliard. Okay. See, I know you're lying.

43:41Kate Berlant:Okay. I know, but here's the thing. I know you're too. I was silent with the excitement, okay? Because currently, and I had to take it out for space, and then I had to put it back in because I missed it too bad. Currently, in my profile, okay, on Instagram, I don't say I went to Juilliard, but I do have a quote that's meaningful to me from Save the Last Dance, okay, that I think is both hilarious and whatever, which is, do you want Juilliard? Oh, my God. I've never noticed that. That's in your Instagram? Yes. OK, Dash saved the last dance. I assume it's there unless I made room to promote something.

44:14Kate Berlant:OK, because, yeah, it's not there right now. Fuck. OK, it was there literally a week ago. OK, and it's going back in. It's going back in. Whatever. It doesn't matter. But yeah, everything about Juilliard. Juilliard is is is the catnip to my ego in a way that the devastation of not having gone to Juilliard. I mean you talk about there being no no language for exercise in the home growing up I feel like no one raised the possibility of Juilliard generally to me you know like I just truly thought it was something others found their way to and I don't even know what I would have gone

44:51Jacqueline Novak:for you know what I'm realizing I'll just say that part of my lying my mother um tells a story about how she lied my mom has a self-consciousness of having not gone to college and she was at some party, some dinner party and the topic of Harvard came up and someone was like, who went to Harvard? Maybe it was like a, it was some kind of like gala or something, or like there was like someone in the microphone and people at tables and my mom raised her hand and just like to kind of gain the power of like, I went to Harvard. Right. And people kind of looked at her like, Oh, you know, and then a friend that knows her goes, you didn't go to Harvard.

45:26Jacqueline Novak:And she was like, she was like, I went for two years. I left.

45:29Kate Berlant:See, that's the gift. You have that gift, that lie that secondary lie the the defense lie i heard you in that so hardcore the um i wouldn't have two years left that is like that's like a you lie yeah you know what i mean because it's very it's very good it's it makes sense i don't know i just i hear you in that it's like wild no i'm

45:48Jacqueline Novak:realizing oh that's totally my mother's influence because how dare you tell me i didn't go to juilliard who the hell do you think you are and all that me going to juilliard really means to you right is me saying i went to juilliard huge and i think this is huge so i did go to juilliard

46:05Kate Berlant:i did no no as did i that's why i was trying to claim it earlier i was trying to because i thought i felt that it was very clear that there was a benefit to doing this okay psychologically and so i said well you know i did go to juilliard that was me dropping right into it yeah of course you shut me down instantly apologies and i understand yeah you know um but no we went to juilliard um Um, Harvard though, can be a curse where it becomes, uh, you have there, if someone has gone to Harvard, right, that causes me to ask myself, do I think they like, uh, do I think they are up to the snuff of what I believe Harvard is?

46:46Okay.

46:46Kate Berlant:Okay. So, so if someone's gone to Harvard, that causes me to pose a question of how smart do I think they are? Right. Are they matching up to Harvard? Are they below? are they absolutely above so like i have a friend who went to harvard who i regularly anytime she does something genius i'm like harvard okay going to harvard that she's so over the top okay not that she got the genius there of course right but i go that's the harvard okay there it is that's the the essence in you that was harvard bound okay from the start and then there's other people who i find out go to harvard i never forget it because i go they're a fool and an asshole

47:23Jacqueline Novak:I do not see how they slipped inherited wealth I mean that's because at this point if you're going to Harvard if you're still you know dining at the table of the Ivy League like it's so antiquated we've already now we know college is like essentially useless in a Ponzi scheme like you know yes of course for the friendships and be exposed to new ideas but also do that in your apartment with your friends or like download a goddamn syllabus like it's a it's just you know more and more and it's really great that college should be like kneecapped right kneecap and it's an affordable and there's no protection in the knees is that what you mean hitting the knees

47:56Kate Berlant:yeah like the mob term i think so the ease of which you said yeah it's got to be kneecapped

48:03Jacqueline Novak:it was like wait i know you think it was like yeah so you know college should be yeah you know revealed for what it kind of truly is or kind of what it allegedly promises has been right revealed to be a lie you know so we know that now and so having like wearing the harvard sweatshirt in this world now is so strange like i'm obviously not actually saying that it's like wearing like a swastika but there's something about it that feels like there's something about because we also know that that system is like deeply like racist and like yeah like so fucked up and corrupt and so it's like you're holding on with a white knuckle grip to these symbols that have been kind stripped of their power.

48:48Jacqueline Novak:And so, but they still hold power. So totally like if I were to walk around in a Yale sweatshirt, but it does make me kind of scream with power in a certain way. No, right. Can you use the symbol? I'm actually, I'm going to buy a Juilliard sweatshirt. I just realized I'm absolutely racing. I'm absolutely racing because I think if I start line with going to Juilliard and then someone's calls me on it, I'll just go, Hmm, I haven't actually decided.

49:15Kate Berlant:No, no, no, no, no. But you I agree. I, I, okay, I flew forward with this. Okay. Because in my mind, so so someone goes, you know, I know you didn't go to Juilliard. Okay. And I scream out, of course, you don't know shit about me first. In a general sense, even to a good friend, right? I go, what does that mean to you? Right, right. I investigate their ideas around around juilliard okay so it's it's like it's like or you know what i got you didn't go to juilliard i go you did okay that's crazy okay you no is it's actually i'm going you did i did we all did okay yeah we want to for me you know the the fantasy the fantasy of juilliard and i you know is young prodigy that's that's what it's about for me i've always yearned to be a young prodigy For me, it's the sex.

50:09Kate Berlant:Sex. Sex behind the... Juilliard, it's the 90s. Well, also, what's that other dance movie? I'm looking up Juilliard's sweatshirt. New York. It's not ABT, but it's like ABT. It's called something else. Ugh. It's the ballerinas.

50:27Jacqueline Novak:Sorry, I'm scoffing at the contemporary Juilliard font, but continue. Sorry. I will be buying the sweatshirt. No, I want to see it. I want to see it. It's heinous. It's like Helvetica's uncle.

50:36Kate Berlant:i don't know it's like it's a bad one that's like go for the classic go for the like they're trying to modernize with a sans serif kind of like yeah give me give me serif the font doesn't have this

50:48Jacqueline Novak:but the font is communicating as if the sweatshirt said juilliard period of course like that's like

50:54Kate Berlant:like that which is no i get that and juilliard period to me is like is like it's like juilliard need i say more yeah yeah like here i'm gonna have to go to ebay to buy good ass julia yeah

51:06Jacqueline Novak:Here's a vintage 90s Juilliard sweatshirt size XL,$50 free shipping, but it's XL.

51:12Kate Berlant:I know you don't wear XL. I love an XL. I love a big one. So I'll expect a package delivered quite soon. And I'm racing because I'm afraid this is the race of eBay. Are you going to catch it before I do? Hold on. Oh, vintage. Shopping with a friend. I'm watching it. Vintage. I should hope so. Vintage Juilliard sweatshirt. Do you recall shopping with a friend? What's that? It's not a film or a book. Shopping with a friend as being a movie. Wait, this doesn't make sense. Oh, you know what? Well, here's a big question. Did you spell Juilliard right? I'm pretty sure I did. I did. You know, but the I in the first part of the word.

51:52Kate Berlant:Honey, I learned the hard way. But I know now. But yeah, to be like the shame of a well-rounded liberal arts education, you know, like I was ashamed before I went into it and I was ashamed after. but but the seduction of well-roundedness yeah

52:15Kate Berlant:i remember once walking in this gym thinking i could actually get an informational session you know like i could actually find out about the gym without them hounding me for the rest of my life you know and it was impossible and i remember and it's this thing like what's your current exercise routine okay and it's like i always default to this kind of like three to four days a week yoga or anything like, like I give her some lie and I think I'm out of here. Like, I'm not coming back. Like, don't ask me a single question. And I believe the last time I did this, I had the courage to say nothing recently.

52:46Kate Berlant:Yeah. Train dancer, of course, from youth. Okay. Certain muscular memory remains, but I just, yeah, I don't, I don't like them. I don't know. There's just something really wrong about it. However, I do have glorious memories as a child of accompanying my mom to the gym. Wow. And sitting at the snack bar, watching her do the exercise classes. So to me, the gym's just like French fries and a little paper cup.

53:09Jacqueline Novak:My parents never exercised. The exercise was not even considered. There was no language for it in the home. My mom would go on walks and my dad would walk up and down the stairs just in the house. But that was really it. And so I... Yeah, notoriously thin, no? My parents ballooned in the late 90s. the late 90s to the early 2000s and they both went on weight watchers and i remember that was huge for me because i used to wake up with like mars capone cream on pumpkin bread and you know and i was like dessert it was ice cream every night and then i remember when my parents went on weight watchers it took a toll i of course was still able to eat whatever i wanted but yeah they went on weight watchers and and they did eventually lose it but yeah no the question of of of whether

53:55Kate Berlant:whether and how we talk about weight on poog is is important because and i don't know where we've landed because uh it's the final taboo no it is and we're some say money is the final taboo

54:05Jacqueline Novak:maybe but i think it's women talking about weight it's women talking about weight and obviously we're not we're not uh pushing and let me tell you the sponsors have written in that we've some diets have tried to get on poop they want us to advertise and we refuse to diet culture is is hell. You know, food is now a superstructure to control women, a patriarchal superstructure to control women's bodies. And so we don't want to do that.

54:29Kate Berlant:However, I also don't want to hide that. Like, I don't want to be robbed of my self-hatred. I don't want to be robbed of my neuroses around my own weight, like because there is an expectation that any woman speaking about expressing any self-hatred or self-body hatred or anything is damaging to others. And I think that's probably both true and unpoliceable also i want to live in a world where we're not allowed

54:53Jacqueline Novak:to acknowledge the low-grade anorexia that every woman suffers because she was born like there's forever this idea like body positivity of course like and and it takes work to like love your body and to not literally hate your body and try to scratch it off like that's a huge accomplishment but like there's this deeply condescending language to like the body positivity movement as the women are unable to. And again, and again, I should have thought of something smart to say before we hit record. But help me. You know what I'm trying to say?

55:24Kate Berlant:Well, what it reminds me of when you're talking is celebrity interviews that I read in magazines as a kid and as a teen in which it's like, what is Heidi Klum? You know, how does she stay trim or what's her whatever? And it's like not eating. Yeah. And they always say like they always present these kind of healthy. Oh, well, you know, I would I don't deprive myself. and it's like them putting out this i don't diet thing in order to not negatively influence young gals right it's like you're you're fucking me up even more because i don't understand how like you're able to well i indulge a couple times a week no exactly it's like it's like i know what

56:03Jacqueline Novak:you're doing you're not eating yeah it's like i remember i can't remember if i mentioned this on a past book episode or in conversation but i remember being eternally traumatized by christina a reachy interview i read in which they were talking about you know how do you manage your keeping that waste or whatever and she said well i find that when i want something sweet i actually can usually just curb the desire by eating a pickle i think i remember that

56:27Kate Berlant:see these things go in like spells go they lodge deep indelible on the hippocampus yes no it's

56:34Jacqueline Novak:completely they lodge and so that of course i was never able to dislodge and so i'm almost just like I need more of these actresses and I need more of these people to be like I don't eat so then the

56:47Kate Berlant:rest of us can be like starve for two weeks exactly yes like tell like give it to us and give us I don't know I want the ugly truth you know like it's more comforting it's like because what I feel less than when I hear that they're able to somehow you know the classic remember when mini meals would be described as a handful of almonds was one of the meals well by the way

57:07Jacqueline Novak:magazine thing it must have been cosmo and i remember hearing it christina aguilera her food diary which right there so yeah the violence of the food celebrity food diary and the word diary her snack her snack 12 almonds and a piece of fruit and so i of course took that to heart my

57:25Kate Berlant:friend who who writes on tv shows okay she said the actresses always asked for cut fruit like like that was the only thing they're willing to sort of eat on camera that was the thing it was like cut fruit and i always need cut fruit oh my god i've never wait to the final taboo and even when you said the word obese earlier you know i panicked of course i panicked because like is there a way in which you know by merely uttering that word is that offensive do you know what i mean like literally acknowledging the existence of sort of a uh spectrum but those lines i remember specifically i remember my family got like a new scale and maybe it was one of those ones that like zaps a beam through you and tells you the you know different um you know your constitutional issues you know you're 30 you know you have 40 pounds of fat you have 60 pounds of bone whatever okay whatever my family got it was this thing where everyone plugs in their identity into the scale so you climb on you hit number four you climb on hello Jacqueline and it basically like said like like my brother was obese like I was obese we weren't morbidly obese but we were obese and like for years you know particularly in the 90s the word obese was just thrown around to mean it's a moral failing exactly exactly and it's that thing where the medical term becomes the insult right right you know idiot once was a i think a medical term is there a term for being

58:52Jacqueline Novak:medically ugly um oh that's another thing i want to say which is i was like alongside this kind of condescending language on women's bodies and talking about oh my god like fat and something is like being gorgeous and this need for like you're gorgeous and being gorgeous i'm like this is huge i mean the world would change tomorrow what we need are hideous women on billboards what we need are like we need to as soon as we don't like we need to like this inability to

59:18Kate Berlant:acknowledge the ugly woman is so i can't i i i could not i could talk about this for 30 hours

59:25Jacqueline Novak:because here's the thing i don't have the conclusion like what i'm saying is very like like scrappy and not well thought out and i feel like but sorry keep going i just i'm tired the

59:34Kate Berlant:condescending language around women no the thing see i realized a number of years ago that me being absolutely unwilling to acknowledge myself finding anything unattractive okay yeah is actually deeply patronizing right so let's just say so anytime someone describes someone else as god forbid ugly okay i lose my mind okay and start launching into why they're not right because i am look at those eyelashes or just because to me actually quote being ugly okay is and i have to put in quotes because i can't even acknowledge it as a state no because i also apparently so it's so offensive a reality that i couldn't allow a person to even in their absence be that thing so i i have thus revealed that i am more judgmental of ugliness because i think it's a it's a it's a state utterable truth so so yeah so the reveal is that i'm worse than all like someone being like yeah they're kind of an ungo or whatever you ever hear someone say that i'm like i'm like shaken to the core and lying in bed at night like trying to like talk to myself about how like everything and everyone is beautiful and it has to be true and i do believe it and i do I believe it's all in the eye and you got to turn the eye to see the majesty of yet another of God's creations.

1:00:56Kate Berlant:I feel that too. And that includes, let's say you get burned in a fire. Okay. That, that's also part of God's creation. Okay. Is the events that unfolded during this life.

1:01:05Jacqueline Novak:But I think also there's something about, and this is when it gets into really like the condescending feminization of like any and all bodies. Like for example, picture somebody who's violently impaled. And I'm talking about like somebody goes through some horrific accident. it okay wait vile impaled is because to be impaled is merely the sword through you you mean i mean you're run over by a train you're set on fire you're thrown off a cliff okay it's bad okay and you're you're propped up with the hospital bed you're unrecognizable so to speak you're propped up in the hospital bed i can i can only define it as that okay go on the nurse comes in with a pink glittery headband and puts the little headband on you she gorgeous right oh thank you god damn she got a rough deal she is no she's now a thumb all right but because of the pink headband yeah wrap her head with the big pink bow on the head weighing down the skull right like the child being literally collapsing under the weight of the weight of a fascinator yeah exactly so this like so a body that's not just automatically recognized as being available for consumption is so horrifying that that we respond with gorgeous

1:02:25Kate Berlant:well i always and again this may have to be cut the ring light has fallen okay my vanity has caused this okay my vanity has caused me to set it up in a shoddy fashion. I need my ring light now. Now it's going away. Okay. So wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry. Okay. Hold on. Take me back. Cause it's really important. Oh, you're gorgeous. Something that I hesitate so deeply to say, because again, and I, whatever, but I remember realizing in college, there was this dynamic where, um, with my friends. Okay. Which was, they were more critical. They were, they were willing. Okay. They felt comfortable criticizing how good an outfit looked let's say we're all getting dressed to go out okay and i'm put on an outfit and come out they were more willing to criticize what i was wearing the outfit when i was thinner this is so fucked up are you ready okay so let's say i'm i'm at my skinniest okay i'm snorting at a roll and we're off at the end of the rest it's whatever eating nothing but caesar salads in the dining room okay i come out they're willing to go like that belt that belt's doing a weird thing on your on your waist okay however okay gain 30 all right suddenly i come out in a let's just say now quote ill-fitting skirt it's like okay oh there she is all right someone's going out someone's getting ready to get fucked oh my god okay and it's like because they see me as actually they see me as quote beyond hope beyond fixing yes yes so i'm beyond being tweaks.

1:04:01Kate Berlant:Tweaks can't help you now. You're beyond humanity. So all we're going to do is support you blindly, scream gorgeous, and put a little thing on your head.

1:04:09Jacqueline Novak:Because the assumption being that you somehow are so fragile. Right. You've been, you've taken such a huge hit by the 30 pounds that to say, God, you know, that shirt is doing something weird on you is like, you would cease to even exist and you would be so incapable as if you don't already know the criticisms that are being flung at you because of the weight gain. As if you already don't have the goddamn mental acumen to be like, it's so offensive.

1:04:36Kate Berlant:It's so hurtful for them suddenly to just go like, there she is.

1:04:45That was Pug.

1:04:47Jacqueline Novak:If you enjoyed Pug, please subscribe, rate, and review. If not, we will press charges.