In short
A “remix” compilation of POOG 101 moments, mixing celebrity elevator pitches, marketing addiction metaphors (Pringles), Jewish funeral customs (cedar coffins, shoveling dirt), nostalgia triggered by 80s songs, plastics/cleaning ad reads, a chaotic LAX Uber mix-up and confrontation, a head injury (“bonk’s that kill” TV trope), and Jacqueline’s reckoning with social media addiction (proposing a “hat”/detached assistant persona and limiting access).
Guests
No episode guests. Hosts are Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak.
Key claims
Elevator pitches and celebrity proximity create instant desire; Pringles’ shape/stacking becomes a metaphor for being held up/pressed down; funeral proximity increases “celebrity status” and rituals feel sacred; social media is an addiction industry and “you can’t not do it” is a lie; moderation could be scheduled (one day/week) and done via a separate “assistant” self.
Notable examples
Mick Jagger elevator story; “you can’t just have one” Pringles; pallbearer shuffle and open-casket dread; “Jack and Diane”/“Free Fallin’” recognition game; LAX Uber driver cash offer; visor + construction limb head bonk; Instagram scrolling as consciousness surrender.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOElevator Celebrity Encounters
0:36 to 1:41
Discussion about the concept of celebrity and memorable elevator encounters.
“Just quickly wanted to say my mother once was in an elevator, I believe, with Mick Jagger.”
Marketing and Addiction
1:41 to 2:48
Exploration of snack marketing, focusing on Pringles' addictive qualities.
“Which is so fascinating as an idea, as a marketing campaign that I think they've abandoned it.”
Philosophy of Pringles
2:48 to 5:13
A deep dive into the philosophical implications of Pringles' shape and packaging.
“I mean, except for the two on the end, the heroes, the one on the bottom, the one on the bottom is like the witch, you know, saying more weight, more weight is like collapsing.”
Funeral Reflections
5:13 to 6:15
Hosts share thoughts and experiences related to funerals and grief.
“The bottom one is also relegated to a kind of senseless.”
The Pallbearer Shuffle
6:15 to 8:04
A humorous recounting of the experience of being a pallbearer.
Cultural Perspectives on Funerals
8:04 to 13:05
Discussion of Jewish funeral customs and the significance of burial practices.
“That's like, like, I'm just like, yeah, like I'm in.”
Nostalgia and Music
13:05 to 14:01
Hosts discuss the emotional impact of music and nostalgia from their childhood.
“But anyway, it's like, and my cousin Rachel was like, like saw it and was like, I want you to do that for me one day.”
Nostalgia and Growing Up
14:01 to 18:02
A heartfelt discussion on childhood memories and the passage of time.
“And that was one of the first times as a child to go, oh, here we go, baby.”
The Impact of Plastics
18:02 to 20:54
Exploring the pervasive issue of plastics and their environmental effects.
“I've been very obsessed lately with plastics, trying to cut down my exposure to plastics, not just in disposal items, but literally in the air we breathe.”
An Uber Encounter
22:59 to 28:00
A humorous tale of an altercation during an Uber ride at LAX.
“Visit the website for full terms and conditions.”
Show all 19 chapters
A Confrontation at LAX
28:00 to 31:34
The hosts recount a humorous and confrontational encounter at the airport.
“What I interpret as cowering, because there was a this like big column.”
The Injury Incident
31:34 to 35:19
Jacqueline shares a story about a head injury she experienced while walking.
“And what is his I wonder if his move is I mean, the cash thing is very, very weird because that's just.”
Exploring the Aftermath
35:19 to 42:00
The hosts discuss the implications of head injuries and their personal fears around them.
“And then you sent a voice note from inside the shower, completely inaudible.”
The Danger of Bonks: Assessing Impacts
42:00 to 43:34
Discussion on the unexpected dangers of minor injuries and their deceptive nature.
Social Media Reckoning
43:34 to 46:17
A candid exploration of social media addiction and its overwhelming effects.
“And then let's pop by cheat TJ Maxx because they're going on television.”
Creating a Detached Self for Social Media
46:17 to 48:26
Strategies for managing social media use by developing an emotionally detached persona.
“Cause even I, and there's, there's like a, there's an argument for like, well, my, my industry, which is real.”
The Consciousness of Scrolling
48:26 to 51:18
A discussion on the effects of mindless scrolling and its impact on consciousness.
“Learning how to be miserable As you say as he says I love it Well, like learn how to be learning how to be.”
Hat Metaphor and Social Media
51:18 to 53:01
Using a humorous metaphor involving hats to address social media engagement.
“And see what hits with no choice, right?”
Music Nostalgia: Jack and Diane
53:01 to 55:59
A light-hearted discussion about the song 'Jack and Diane' and its nostalgia.
“Did you something, if not first impression?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Jacqueline Novak:Hi, I'm Kate Berlant. I'm Jacqueline Novak. And this is POOG, an ongoing conversation about wellness between two obsessive friends. Two untameable intellects. This is our hobby. This is our hell. This is our naked desire for free products. This is POOG.
0:15Kate Berlant:Hi everyone, so glad you loved POOG 101. Here is our second volume of classic POOG moments. Here comes POOG 101 part two. The summer learning continues. Please enjoy.
0:36Jacqueline Novak:Just quickly wanted to say my mother once was in an elevator, I believe, with Mick Jagger. This is like in the 60s. OK.
0:43Kate Berlant:Yes.
0:43Jacqueline Novak:It's just that idea of hyper celebrity in that way. You're just in an elevator. But for someone else, that was the day they rode the elevator with Mick Jagger. It's just.
0:51Kate Berlant:I mean, the primacy of the elevator pitch as a concept. Right.
0:56Jacqueline Novak:Right.
0:56Kate Berlant:I mean, it's literally the term for, you know, a short pitch and under two minute pitch.
1:01Jacqueline Novak:Yeah.
1:01Kate Berlant:And that's all about, you know, getting in the, oh, you step in the elevator at the William Morris talent agency. Right. And this is your chance or whatever. It's like.
1:10Jacqueline Novak:And, you know, it's so haunting about that is that there's truth to it. That's why it's a kind of persistent idea. I know. There is that thing of like you flash a smile, you do something wild and people go, who's that kid? Get me them. I need whatever they have.
1:25Kate Berlant:No, I mean, well, I think I think you have that you have that magic. Absolutely. OK, you are a turn it on, dazzle and they go, holy shit, I've never tasted it anymore. OK, they instantly want more. You are a chip. OK, you're Pringle. You can't just have one. I mean, you can't have just one.
1:41Jacqueline Novak:Oh, my God, I feel so loud.
1:42Kate Berlant:Which is so fascinating as an idea, as a marketing campaign that I think they've abandoned it. Pringles, you know, you can't once you pop, you can't stop, I guess, or whatever. I forget which one. I mean, that's literally like like the truth of the addiction of, you know, grain and sugar.
1:57Jacqueline Novak:Corn. Yeah.
1:57Kate Berlant:OK, they're they're they're they're promoting their own disease. I mean, it's like, you know, like camel cigarettes. Once you start smoking them, you just won't be able to stop. Yeah, totally. It's like, yeah, I know. It's a problem with chips. Do you enjoy a Pringle? Because I have something to say about him. Actually, no.
2:17Jacqueline Novak:I didn't think you would. By the way, when I was a kid, sure, you know, you make a duck mouth out of them. You know, you put one. Yes. You know, you're familiar. Clowning, clowning. Yeah, yeah. And the packaging is brilliant. Thank you. Because each, because that tube of the Pringles and then each Pringle is preserved as kind of a holy sacrament, if you will. and so there's kind of this preciousness about the individual chip that is smart no because
2:46Kate Berlant:take a can of pringles right empty them out into a traditional big chip bag exactly shake it around fill it with air yeah good luck okay what do you have i mean the baked lays the exactly and you think about the shape of a pringle which is almost like i feel like the shape of a pringle verges on a kind of like sacred geometry right because it's like yeah what even is is it like it's almost like a yeah what is that drawing i'm like yeah yeah you're right i'm like there's like a wave function unfolding okay in the like no it is poetic and the way that they all are stacked is like is remarkable then the stacking that's so beautiful that there's this shape but they can fold in on themselves in that way that they support each other in that shape every pringle carries another Pringle.
3:29Kate Berlant:I mean, except for the two on the end, the heroes, the one on the bottom, the one on the bottom is like the witch, you know, saying more weight, more weight is like collapsing. The witch is being tortured. I mean, you know what I mean? More weight, more weight. And then the Pringle on the top, I feel like is the baby of the family that they're like, we lift you up. Yeah, exactly. It's the Aries of the group. Yeah. Or like, God, imagine. But and then all the pringles in the middle i mean they're just i want to be in the middle baby you
4:01Jacqueline Novak:want to be the middle in the middle as a pringle i guess that's what i mean it's what everyone wants
4:04Kate Berlant:you want to be held up and pressed down on from below simultaneously i want to be in the middle
4:08Jacqueline Novak:i want to be where it's at oh i want to be in the heat of it feeling screaming pringles on both sides yeah yeah no absolutely the din of conversation top pringle doesn't even know is it even a pringle Maybe it might not be a Pringle.
4:24Kate Berlant:It doesn't even know. Oh, right. Because it carries nothing. Oh, my God. Because the top Pringle carries nothing. It does not realize it, too, is being carried. You see what I'm saying? Because it doesn't understand because it doesn't have to hold anyone.
4:36Jacqueline Novak:No, it's completely it's innocence. It's blinded by its own innocence. It just believes we're all we're all held up. Yeah, it's actually a very lonely experience being the top Pringle. Bottom Pringle. And everyone talking behind you, the murmur behind you that you can barely participate in.
4:50Kate Berlant:Every Pringle also hears the murmur behind it, right? But you only are capable of hearing the murmur once you understand, once you mystically perceive that there is carrying happening, which you do not understand if you yourself do not carry. So that is like really heavy. And then the bottom Pringle, I feel every other Pringle has consciousness of the group, I think.
5:15Jacqueline Novak:The bottom one is also relegated to a kind of senseless.
5:18Kate Berlant:I mean, no one carries the bottom. responsibility. Oh no, but you know what the bottom one has?
5:21Jacqueline Novak:Yeah. As its friend, the can. By the way, here's a question. Here's a huge question. How does the bottom of the can not break the cellular structure of that Pringle and therefore radiate upward, cracking, ricocheting, upgrading chaos? Because I have news for you. I don't recall an orthotic
5:37Kate Berlant:at the bottom of that can. I do not recall support.
5:43Jacqueline Novak:Wait, maybe it's like... No. How, Jacqueline? If you shake a Pringle's can, if you do one kind of violent motion. Yeah. Yeah. I guess they shatter. But what is the transport? Are the trucks on springs? How are they transferring? How are they sharing weight? How are they transporting these Pringles?
6:07Kate Berlant:There's been some some sort of tragic deaths in the family that. you know have that quality at the funeral that is not just no it's not just the morning it's the life well lived you know you know death is always sad but and but there you know it can all be very six feet underish in a kind of like to eat after a funeral the way that feels to me is so ecstatic you know what tell me like like well there's two versions there's one which is they're like want to go get a burger okay there's that which i love and then like entering a diner or something and just under the context of of death yeah then being in a diner and ordering your favorite stuff whatever god that's good and then the other is sort of this disturbing but oddly comforting like bagels at the synagogue thing i've experienced a couple times yeah the thing that yeah have you
7:07Jacqueline Novak:ever been a pallbearer no but my eyes are widening because my i once watched my father be a pallbearer and then i you know kind of like a celebrity of that like well my dad was a pallbearer you know
7:17Kate Berlant:what the fuck did your dad do you know the celebrity at the funeral is one of my absolute favorite topics okay because the closer you are to the death the bigger your celebrity status is your day it's your special day yes and like fighting you know of course the i mean i remember yeah like elbowing I remember like elbowing past people like kind of like you know I'm the cousin I'm the granddaughter right I mean status fucking respect yeah grief-based status is major and then oh my god I've been a pallbearer a couple times and it's like it's like one of these things in life where I'm like how is this like how is this always happening because I felt like we're gonna drop this thing like I was like this is not like me and my cousins holding a coffin which is like what it's been a couple times oh my god that is I'm like we're not strong no you can't give it to the kids yeah it's given to the kids and I remember specifically I think it was I think it was my grandfather's funeral but we were like you know holding the coffin and having to bring it right over the hole in the ground and like there were these planks these wooden planks that were kind of there along the side of it to i don't know so that that's what you walk on these planks so you're not on loose ground or something like yeah you're gonna fall in and it was like rattling planks as we're all carrying something way too heavy for us no and i i always think of it in my mind like i have a name for it's the pallbearer shuffle okay i'll show it to you i'll show it to you it's very specific so like to me it's like i'll hold something i'll hold something like uncomfortably like too big okay like
9:18oh my god okay because it's it's like you have to so to be clear it's like swift rapid movements
9:27Jacqueline Novak:of the feet so it's not as much ground as possible yeah yes it's rapid shuffling and
9:36Kate Berlant:And like we've seen in, you know, I always like a movie where a corpse rolls out of a coffin. That's like, like, I'm just like, yeah, like I'm in. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's just, it felt really, it's just, I don't think there should be such high risk. Should we really be risking a possibility?
9:55Jacqueline Novak:No, no, no. And by the way, and then you're potentially putting, imagine the weight, no pun intended, of that on somebody. Like I dropped the body. I mean, it's just the horror of that seems like a huge risk.
10:08Kate Berlant:Are you aware of, you know, so Jews, Jewish, there's an idea that the coffin should be plain, simple, a wood box. Yeah, cedar. Yeah, it's like.
10:17Jacqueline Novak:Maybe it's not cedar. I feel like it's cedar. Cedar is so fragrant.
10:22Kate Berlant:Yeah, cedar almost. Yeah, like keep the mods off the clothes. How do you store your cashmere sweaters?
Read the full transcript
10:25Jacqueline Novak:How do you store your corpses? Yeah. Cedar, cedar, cedar. Yeah. what's your experience with open casket well that's the thing as so as a jew
10:39Kate Berlant:same thing you don't really get the open casket generally thank god and so the only time you've experienced open casket are um other people's relatives and i mean open casket is is like wild
10:59Jacqueline Novak:psychedelic i mean i i've only seen it once but i was a child and i remember going with my parents to this funeral and then there was the open casket and there was the person and it was like yeah just psychedelic unimaginable and i wanted to run and of course what i wanted to do is just run and stare i wanted to stare i wanted to be alone in a room with the casket ideally to be able to just freely stare but you can't to not have to not have to perform like what yeah no they're dead and that's them like what could possibly be the problem
11:33Kate Berlant:there is no i mean to me there's no greater intimacy because then to see someone's dead body right oh my god i'm imagining that you
11:45Jacqueline Novak:like you i would allow you to see my dead body that is the ultimate vulnerability
11:52Kate Berlant:my cousin Rachel once said like because at one of our family members funerals like you know we were taking turns throwing dirt on the grave but but actually like actually filling in the hole completely like shoveling it right because that's like I don't know again I think that's part of the Jewish thing is like it's cool there's like the gesture version like everyone's supposed to throw and dirt on there's the actual there's the actual and i like really took to it no i think yeah i like like really took to it and found it like like i'm like it was like six feet under yeah like influenced but i was like like yeah like this actually feels like sort of sacred and sort of beautiful i agree completely and even though it's i remember my grandfather non-jew talking about experiencing that at the jewish funerals and being like god you know like so horrifying like dirt hitting the casket and i'm like no i love it and so i i don't know i took something and was really really getting into it and i was like working i was like shoveling intensely like like like i'm gonna finish it up with the boys because there's something crass about like well let's walk like let's head back to blah blah blah these guys will finish
13:04Jacqueline Novak:filling it in yeah the women kind of with their umbrellas arms linked kind of walk away toward the buffet and the men are left. Yeah.
13:13Kate Berlant:Umbrellas and arms linked is genius. Yeah. It's like to finish the job. Like it's very weird to walk away. But anyway, it's like, and my cousin Rachel was like, like saw it and was like, I want you to do that for me one day. Or is it something? You know what I mean? Oh.
13:40Kate Berlant:How do you feel about this movie? There are places I remember. Oh my God.
13:46Jacqueline Novak:Yeah, yeah.
13:47Kate Berlant:All my life remains.
13:53Jacqueline Novak:So in my life, that was one of the first moments. I remember I used to turn that on when I would hurt myself with music. Yes. Because I love to hurt myself with music. And that was one of the first times as a child to go, oh, here we go, baby. And just cry and get emotional. This is sentimentality out the window, turning that on, feeling my own. I remember the feeling having my own childhood slip away. Yeah, of course. I was a fucking child and I was going, you're going to age. Everyone's going to die.
14:22Kate Berlant:Oh, well, all those songs fucked me up. Hold on to 16 as long as you can. Change is going to come real soon and make you a woman. Wait, what the fuck is that? Jack and Diane. Who? Little ditty about Jack and Diane. two men who the hell doing best they can who's jack and diane
14:48Jacqueline Novak:in jackie's car what is that you freak life goes on
14:56Kate Berlant:there she is there's my girl we've become i'm laughing at we've become nostalgia podcasters
15:02Jacqueline Novak:I know we've become our greatest fear.
15:04Kate Berlant:Many women. I was like, from 12 on, I was worried about...
15:12Kate Berlant:I was worried about 16's approach and then 16 leaving. Oh, I know. 16 candles. I was like, so death is at 16. Yeah. And then, wait, there's a 17 one. Fuck, what does this say? The one that's like, 17 years old. She's doing fine, but not for long. I don't know what these ditties are. That one was fake. Okay. That one was fake. You literally don't know Jack and Diane. I'm sorry. Little ditty. I don't know what that is. This will be a fun game. This will be a fun game. Okay.
15:43Jacqueline Novak:This will be fun for everyone.
15:45Kate Berlant:Oh, they'll love it, Kate. Trust me. They know. Let's see how long it takes. Okay. For any recognition. And I swear to God. Okay. This is not something that others are going to be alienated. Okay. Let's go. Little ditty. about Jackie and Diane. Two American kids growing up in the heartland. Jackie's gonna be a football star. Diane's debutante backseat of Jackie's car. Soaking on jell-dogs outside the day's breeze. Diane's sitting on Jackie's lap, got his hand between her knees. Jackie says, hey Diane, let's run off behind a shady tree. Drew off those Bobby Brooks
16:29Jacqueline Novak:Let me do what I please I don't know what the fuck you're singing Oh yeah
16:33Kate Berlant:Life goes on Long after the thrill Of living is gone No Oh yeah I said life goes on Long after the thrill Of living is gone I don't know it Literally nothing? I don't know it Who are Jack and Diane? Just confirm that our two producers are familiar with the song. I've heard it. Okay, so what's wrong with me? Now I'm alienated. My rendition, I just want to say my renditions was like a caricature. Sure. By exaggeration to attempt to communicate. Right. And I think it was pristine. Fuck. What's wrong with me that I can't locate it? Wait, I got another one. I'm going to come up with the next song that I think is the exact sort of same thing as that and see if you know it.
17:22Jacqueline Novak:You are so cute and lit up right now that I just want you to keep going. Are you familiar with Free Fallen? Of course. Well, of course, she says. Free Fallen? Tom Petty? I mean, that's like, they play that at like the airport on a loop. Yep. Jack and Diane is not dissimilar.
17:43Kate Berlant:I don't know. Nothing with, I mean, little ditty about Jack and Diane. I mean, and I'm not one of these people, okay? I don't know how, I can't, I don't know where my phone is. He's like, it's fine. I'll look up in my own time. Yeah, right. Oh, we should go to break.
18:08Jacqueline Novak:I've been very obsessed lately with plastics, trying to cut down my exposure to plastics, not just in disposal items, but literally in the air we breathe.
18:18Kate Berlant:Like Kate said, we have shown an ongoing interest in the plastics that we eat and breathe here on planet Earth. Something disturbing about plastics, the way, no, it doesn't just disappear when it seems to disappear. It's breaking down into smaller and smaller pieces that stick around in our environment.
18:37Jacqueline Novak:And I'm always trying to be mindful about what I bring into my home. And cleaning products are a huge element of this layer of protection. I never thought my cleaning routine had anything to do with plastic exposure until I started paying attention to ingredients.
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23:05Jacqueline Novak:I have something to say, which is that I was traveling the other day and I got in an altercation with a fellow. And I was able to yell at a man. And OK, so I'll tell you what happened. All right. Let me walk you through it. I'll stop you when I think there's not enough detail. I'll slow this baby down. All right. Okay. Okay. Let's go. Let's go. So I'm arriving from, I've been in New York for months doing my show. I'm arriving back in LA. I have a lot of bags. And by the way, folks, I went and purchased an away suitcase in a hurry because I had, could not fit the stuff. I went into a way, I got the big one.
23:48Not the hugest one, but not the carry on flex, the size up.
23:52Jacqueline Novak:Whatever. It's great. I know the one. So I run out. I get that. I'm like, OK, I'm doing it. I have so I have a huge what I'm trying to say is I had two really big bags, a small bag, a shoulder bag. I had too much stuff. I'm trying to justify right now that I when I landed in L.A., I got a curbside pickup from Uber because I couldn't manage the shuttle on my own. It was 11 p.m.
24:14Kate Berlant:Are you saying that you just had you described having so many bags to justify getting an Uber? Yeah, like not taking the shuttle.
24:22Jacqueline Novak:It's crazy. To what? Who cares? To the Uber center? At LAX, we have to take the shuttle. Remember, you've seen me take the shuttle. Yes, yes. To take the shuttle to like the area. And it was crowded, whatever. So I thought, you know what? I'm just doing it. I'm getting curbside. And so this so I'm waiting. The Uber driver calls me. He's like, there's a lot of traffic at the airport. I'm 10 minutes away. Sorry. I was like, that's fine. I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm see the car start to pull up and I see check the license plate. Oh, it's my car. I start to struggle to get my bags over to it. And then I see this guy who's loading all his stuff.
24:56Jacqueline Novak:I can hear it and I can feel it. I can feel the struggle. I can feel all of it. Oh, you can't imagine the bag loses. No, when the bag slips from the shoulder. Contact with my shoulder slips down. I curse it. Yeah. So then I'm seeing this man loading his stuff into my Uber with his girlfriend. or what have you. I go, oh, no. And I go, oh, maybe I'm wrong. And then I look down and go, no, that is my car. So I walk over. He's in. His girlfriend's in. He's in. He's about to close the door. And I say, so politely, I go, oh, overly classic. Oh, no, right. Oh, I go. Oh, even though you'd known for my voice up 10 octaves.
25:36Jacqueline Novak:Of course. I go, oh, sorry. I think I even said sorry. of course you did i said all right oh oh um i think this is my uber yep and he goes it's not he goes it's not and slams the door and i go wait oh slams it from the outside and he's about to
25:53Kate Berlant:move around to his side because he just put his his no sorry he's in he goes the the window is i got it pulls it closed pulls it closed he pulls it closed okay he looks at me he goes it's not
26:03Jacqueline Novak:and slams the door and i go jesus asshole and i said i don't know who the fuck raised you i didn't say fuck i said i don't know who raised you but learned some manners oh my gosh wait hold on i wait hold on full-throated whose uber is it and he goes don't you want to hear the rest of the story i'm sorry i thought i thought you were done okay go on oh i'm not done so i'm trying to think of what the first contact was or no maybe no he goes it's not he slams i go jesus asshole and he goes and the window's open what he no yeah and then he goes what and i go i don't know who raised you, but you should really learn some manners.
26:39Jacqueline Novak:You should learn how to talk to people with some decency. No. And he goes, hell yeah. Yeah. And then the Uber starts to drive away. I look down. It was my Uber. Okay. So I look down and I see on the app, it says heading to my address and I go, yeah, I knew it. So I immediately call the driver. The car is gone. Not super quick, but it's like, you know, half a block down the thing. Is his name Kate?
27:04Kate Berlant:Her name Kate?
27:05Jacqueline Novak:So I call the driver, I call the driver and I go, hi. And he goes, that's, and the driver's apologetic. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I go, that's okay. And he's like, can you come this way? I go, yeah. So I, so then I start lugging again, the huge bag, the other huge bag, the carry on wheelie and my shoulder bag. I am. And by the way, I pick up the pace. Cause I go, I want to see this. Of course,
27:30Kate Berlant:You don't want him.
27:31Jacqueline Novak:And I'm literally, I'm not joking. In the night. Almost cackling. I say out loud, I fucking can't wait to see him. I'm, I'm practically skipping. Yes. Yes. So I get there. The driver, he's already unloaded the stuff. The driver's like, I'm so sorry. He's still there. That was their name. And yeah, no, no, I don't see him yet. And I go, that's okay. It's not your fault. And then I, I literally dropped my bags at the back to, to, he's gonna, you know, I dropped my bags. I go looking for him. I walk to the front. I'm looking around. I see him. What I interpret as cowering, because there was a this like big column.
28:08Jacqueline Novak:He's like way in the back. There's always a column
28:10Kate Berlant:at LAX. I'll tell you that much. And he's he's back at the column. I know him well.
28:14Jacqueline Novak:I go and I go and I put my hands in a prayer position. I bow and I go have I go. Thank you so much, asshole. Have a great night.
28:21Kate Berlant:No, you said asshole again.
28:22Jacqueline Novak:Yes. Oh, did I say asshole? Maybe I didn't say asshole. I said, no, no, I think I just, I clasped my hands. Thank you. And I went, thank you so much. Have a great night. And then the girlfriend goes like, all right, that's enough. And I go, teach your boy. And I go, I think I said like, what did I say? Something like, teach your boyfriend how to like, what did I fucking say? I said something about like, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Like, I wish I remember what it was, but it was something good, baby. and I felt and when I tell you I felt so vindicated and so alive and so good because I will the only circumstance I will do that if you are so outwardly aggressively rude yes and it's like there's just no no and by the way you were wrong like you should have you made like I mean there really was there I would have okay he was cowering in a way that you felt he was
29:17Kate Berlant:hoping to not have an interaction.
29:19Jacqueline Novak:And by the way, there's something else I did too. There's something else I did too. And then later I was reflecting on the story. I was like, did I go too hard? But then, but then I get in the car, I'm laughing with the Uber driver. The Uber driver goes, he offered me, he said, I said, Kate. And the girl, I guess said yes. And then she was like, and then he just like offered me cash. So he did. He was, he was purposely trying. He knew. I have a lot to say about this. That's not cool.
29:44Kate Berlant:so his technique we got to watch out for his technique we're going to discuss his technique
29:48Jacqueline Novak:in a second don't forget okay okay so then so then and i said to the driver the driver and i are laughing and i go and i go i really don't talk to people like that but he was just being it was just outrageous it was so rude i couldn't believe it and the driver said no no he was being you know it's crazy so then we're pulling up he gets in his other car so let's like oh by the way just if you had waited three more minutes i see the guy in his car they pull off i'm up next to them. No, two cars next to each other. Yeah. And I stick and I flip them off because I know he's there. My Uber driver is loving it.
30:20Jacqueline Novak:He's laughing. We're having fun. God, we go into the night.
30:24Kate Berlant:Well, there's the I mean, this that to be able to enjoy that with the Uber driver. Now, is your middle finger right now manicured?
30:32Jacqueline Novak:By the way. So you know what you did? You know, you made this guy unload your bags. You made him put him the bags in, unload them. Then he had to but mine it like it's just like anyway no well actually what's interesting people to imagine a wedding without a manicure can you imagine anyway keep going oh i can imagine okay uh no
30:53Kate Berlant:i just it was more that i was imagining like you i feel like your feminine fingers like i feel like you have like a tend of a longer finger now and to me it's sort of like they're short sort of the original but what you think is short i that i still think is long because mine just there's no way there's no good good okay good good I mean not good but they're nice um beautiful but I just picture this sort of rounded 80s to me flipping the bird has a certain nail from 80s film and television I guess 80s film oh yeah a very yeah the the the finger and the nail like but anyway I see it very clearly.
31:34Jacqueline Novak:It just felt I was just flying high. I was like, do not. Do not.
31:40Kate Berlant:And what is his I wonder if his move is I mean, the cash thing is very, very weird because that's just. So they lied to get in because he said they said yes. And I guess they said, yeah, I think his technique in there is you just grab anything you can get. OK, this is what I'm wondering about. Grab. He thinks you can grab. He thinks he's like you grab anything you can get. And once you're in, I guess he's about ask for forgiveness later or whatever. Yeah. Or sorry, I'm just fascinated by what the move is. It's like he's pulling. It's it's it's oh, you get it. Missheard. And then what can you do?
32:19Kate Berlant:But the thing is, but the problem is, it's not like. It's not like like, how do you fix that other than with cash?
32:27Jacqueline Novak:Well, no, no. So here's the thing. so the cash thing's like well that's probably actually a better deal for the for the driver he just gets cash right right so that i understand but here's what's weird to me you rejected i'm standing in front of you with 16 bags alone and you're going this isn't yours so you're actually do you know what i mean like let's just say there's an empty there's a car floating around yeah and you're like uh and no one's claiming it right so fucked up but like you're actually looking at me going oh that's mine and going and yeah and like brazen rudely being like brazenly going it's not and slamming the door like no it's no very interesting and i
33:04Kate Berlant:wish i could describe how this guy look do you think he thought it was his do i think that i
33:10Jacqueline Novak:don't well here's the reason why because at first i thought it's an honest mistake you check down you check the license plate right his brazen his knowledge that it wasn't but then the driver telling me that he offered him cash i'm like no he was just trying to he just was gonna take it And by the way, let's say there was an emergency. Take it. If he goes, sorry, my wife's going into labor. Sorry, we have an emergency. Sorry, I go, take it. I don't give a shit. But you're just, you just, you can't. You can't.
33:34Kate Berlant:No, you, no. I mean, that's wild.
33:37Jacqueline Novak:And he was cowering behind the pillar.
33:40Kate Berlant:Fascinated.
33:41Jacqueline Novak:Those pillars. He thought I would, he thought he would never see me again. He thought he wasn't going to have to deal with me. Well, guess what doll?
33:47Kate Berlant:Well, right.
33:49Jacqueline Novak:You're going to see this face.
33:50Kate Berlant:Boomerang is coming back around. This mop of curly hair.
33:53Jacqueline Novak:And he looked, I'm like, who does he look like? If I had to compare him to someone. To an actor. Who's Caitlyn Jenner's son? Who's that guy? The like normal looking guy? Brody. Brody Jenner. He was like, he looked like a less attractive Brody Jenner. But he looked like that kind of a like guy who's like, I get my dick sucked at 3 p.m., 9 p.m., 2 a.m., and 8 a.m. And no one. And you better not be off schedule.
34:30Kate Berlant:Sorry. The way you rolled up those numbers, I actually thought was mathematically impressive, not just due to them, I think, being equally spaced. But like, I don't know if I can name four numbers that. I don't know. Like name four numbers that quick. Like four, six, two, three. OK, I guess I did a decent. I did. No, but I said two, three at the end. I panicked and did one right after the other. Like I was like, wow, Kate, you've got it there. You've got more than you know you've got. Math wise.
34:56Jacqueline Novak:But rolling away in the Uber, I was like, I. I told my mom, she was thrilled.
35:10Kate Berlant:I've been concussed and come back around since last poog.
35:14Jacqueline Novak:Yeah, let's go into the concussion because I haven't even because we were texting about recording, I think. And then you sent a voice note from inside the shower, completely inaudible.
35:24Kate Berlant:No, I was actually convalescing at the apartment's pool. Oh, that was a pool? I went there for peace. And on that day they were drilling, like they were repairing the pool.
35:38Jacqueline Novak:So it was like, okay, I thought you were in the shower. Because I know you take the pool. I mean, I know you take your phone in the shower. I thought you were in the shower. Okay. Catch me up. I mean obviously if it's remotely interesting I mean it's pretty wild to well let's see so folks are familiar with my signature visor yeah and I wear it pretty much every time I leave the
36:03Kate Berlant:house even when you know it's those late late in the day rays sounds about to set but I know it's you know, you know, go into a movie, take it. And that mean, knowing that when I leave in darkness, I'll have a visor with me that I have to throw over my shoulder. Okay. Yeah. And it's one of the only things that actually covers the face. Um, and so I'm walking along now, I'll be honest. I was not walking to Air One. Okay. That wasn't the destination, but Chris and I are walking together side by side. We happen to be on the sidewalk that leads to Air One. And it's a particularly narrow sidewalk on the side of the Grove.
36:45Kate Berlant:Know it well. You know, they built out the Grove because they built out Nordstrom. They gave Nordstrom a couple extra feet in their bathroom so that it is narrow, that sidewalk. We have to go single file if someone's coming. Anyway. Yeah. And I'm walking along. you know at a nice clip it's not really about speed it's about walking with just the force of absolutely believing there's nothing ahead of you I mean it's as simple as that yeah and all of a sudden I sort of think like buildings are falling around like I think something has happened like a beam from construction has like come down on me and OK, all I know is is there is a slamming in my head that feels like the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to my head.
37:41Kate Berlant:Yeah. OK. And. I go down. No, like I fall on my knees. OK. And I'm like crying. Not yet. No, pretty quick. OK. Like almost immediately. but I'm not even crying from pain. This is the joke. Like shock. I think so. Yeah, totally. And I'm in a strange state where in my mind, I am like, this is an emergency. Something fucking crazy has happened. Like, this is not just whatever. And I'm down there and then like, you know, I'm immediately crying. Just like, like, like just, you know what I mean? Like, It's very weird.
38:24Jacqueline Novak:Tell me this, are there people around? What's going on?
38:26Kate Berlant:No, we're on that lone narrow sidewalk, just me and Chris. And he's like, show me, like, show me your head, show me your head. Right. So, okay. I should tell the people. You're like, don't take the visor off. There's a limb of a tree. There was a limb, a limb of a tree. My family kept using the word branch when the story got retold. And I had to keep correcting everyone to a limb of a tree. There's a big difference. A branch. Walk over the difference. A branch to me. Is smaller, flimsy. Smaller, thinner. Yeah. A limb is like. Is a thick trunk. Does not move. Yeah. You know what I mean? Got it.
38:58Kate Berlant:And there's a thick. Yeah, that is a big difference. Thick limb. You know, I guess as thick as a coffee can. Okay. Like a Maxwell House probably. Stretching across the sidewalk in a way that just me at 5 '7", walking straight is going to slam into it.
39:16Jacqueline Novak:Model, supermodel, strutting. Really? God, you're 5 '7". That's unbelievable. Anyway, keep going. What are you? Five, three and a half. It's a fight for the half. Yeah.
39:31Kate Berlant:Okay, keep going. It's funny. So now because my head was lightly tipped down and I'm wearing the visor, I simply could not see it. And I also engaged in conversation while walking, say with Chris, right? I almost do not perceive my surroundings. Okay. and it's like the ADD hyper focus on like I'm seeing in my mind's eye what we're talking about and it's becoming a hazard okay
40:01Jacqueline Novak:I want photographic evidence of the tree oh we've got it okay well
40:06Kate Berlant:text it later because we sue the grove yeah can you imagine technically there was a professional loss like I had to cancel some shit anyway so I mean I'm making so so it was a limb that i walked in and i'm down i'm crying because it's like let me see your head and it's and here it begins here begins the uh validation of illness or injury okay and the comedy of you know my theory about anytime you take your temperature on some level you're hoping for a temperature because for confirmation of what you fear totally so it's like let me see your head and like i'm like maybe my head is like open you know what i mean or whatever like pouring blood i kind of know it's not but like and it's like there's what many would call nary a mark okay so i'm like literally nothing and it's not it doesn't even really hurt like it's not like oh god it's pounding you know what i mean like i mean i kind of can't remember like a little bit but i was like i was like really stunned and then we strolled away i mean we in the stroll.
41:16Kate Berlant:We started to walk away and I was like, like, I don't know, reflecting on it. And so, and so being like, I don't know if I'm okay. Like maybe we should go to the hospital. I was like pretty sure. Like, I was like, I was like, I thought I needed an ambulance and you know, I'm not hypo. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. At all. Right. Yeah.
41:33Jacqueline Novak:Yeah. But you hear these fucking stories. Oh, don't get me fucking started. I mean, I'll never forget the, my, the big ones, any hit head for me any hit on the head and i've only had small ones thank god yeah i'm always like well permanent brain damage i mean we all know about the guy who invented the miracle pillow or whatever who's the guy was it him what's the miracle pillow was it him when he went to sleep that kind of story no no what happened was that he it was something like that like he was in an airplane well this is what i think he's on a fucking airplane and somebody was taking their luggage out bonked him on the head no no he's like don't worry about it dead so we get the pattern
42:12Kate Berlant:here right bonk you're dead yeah it's yeah it's so do not underestimate the power just because there's no yeah bruise like i knocked my head on the corner of my shelf over there thank you love you bro love my office shelves yeah okay my index shelves and knocked my head on it and there's like like a week ago and there's like a bruise from that but it was just like i felt how surface it was it was like the corner okay this was deep reverberation okay this was so deep and and and so i was like so yeah and it was so fucked up the way that there was no yeah there's nothing like the way that there's almost no pain and nothing is like more suspicious to me yeah because i'm like these are the kind of bonks that kill because you're like oh I'm fine I'm like this is exactly the kind of like freaky nature of the kind of thing someone wouldn't sorry I had my mouth fall yeah so bonks that we're kind of like assessing we're we're kind of just assessing and then I'm sort of like and it's like that would be an episode of television like we used to do like car crashes bonks that kill oh you do serious oh like you have to like pull ring yeah yeah like so like those survival like i survived those shows i love what's horrible
43:37Jacqueline Novak:is people who don't survive i mean for bonks that kill it's mostly i think the people are dead oh right right it's more of the family and friends and family friends and family just like
43:48Kate Berlant:in the morning like no no no no all week at bloomingdale's okay all week trips to blooming to try to find the outfit and then nothing. And then let's pop by cheat TJ Maxx because they're going on television. Do you understand? Wait, why am I confused? Help me, help me, help me. I don't understand. I'll bring you in. I'll bring you in. What I'm saying is, so you watch like the produced show, right? I watched, I'm just saying in this, in this version, right? It's like the friends and family of the person who has died. And that's why they're on TV. Saying she went to Bloomingdale's? They're being interviewed.
44:20Jacqueline Novak:Yeah.
44:24Kate Berlant:No, no, no. And they're watching the show you just cut to them in serious with serious music and they're talking right and it's sort of intense and dignified due to producing but that morning like they were feverishly styling their hair they were all week choosing their outfit you see what i'm saying
44:43Jacqueline Novak:yeah some might have been like like getting a facial trying to slim down you know yeah some might have been like like it's like i've got bonks to kill next week so talking about your aunt. So yes, not going to have the tiramisu. Yeah. Yeah. You might recognize me Bonk's Lake Hill. What? Yeah.
45:04Kate Berlant:Just imagine. Oh, you might imagine someone like, yeah. Oh no, no. They're like, what do I know you from? Bonk's Lake Hill. Probably Bonks.
45:20Jacqueline Novak:why am I so afraid of my own interiority Jacqueline what's in there you know it's like what am I oh god and I have to say something I almost can't talk about this on Poog because it's or just I it's almost like I don't want to talk about this at all because it's like it's some it's um as you can tell I'm sort of in this like inarticulate like swampland of it right now and I'm I'm coming I feel like I'm really reckoning with like what I've lost oh like the years I've lost in kind of a way that I'm like that's okay I can forgive myself because it's um this is you know this um you've lost some industry right social media is actually a propaganda term it's not social media it's an industry and it's um and data labor is real and we've all I mean it's just like it's so it's a fucking crisis and we need 12-step for social media addiction and we don't have it.
46:09Jacqueline Novak:And it's, it's, it's a, if you actually, if you really start to think about it too much, it becomes so overwhelming and depressing that you just open Instagram again. Yeah. You just about open Instagram again and go, well, this is, you know, because also, and the main myth, I'll just say this, the, the main myth and like most pernicious lie propagated by social, the social industry is probably that you can't not do it. Right. Cause even I, and there's, there's like a, there's an argument for like, well, my, my industry, which is real. I will, of course, not delete my account because I need to post about tickets that I'm trying to sell to my live show or I have to promote things.
46:43Jacqueline Novak:And I'm like, okay, I have admitted that I'm powerless over this force. And so I don't know how to engage with it in moderation yet, but I will, I actually, it's urgent that I develop a way to do that. By the way, cut to me scrolling for the next 67 years. I mean, completely, like, I just want to say, but, but I don't think I'm going to.
47:01Kate Berlant:The vulnerability of stating this now, the vulnerability of stating like seemingly reckoning with an addiction like publicly almost or you know to friends and and hags it's like there's this oh god and then you're gonna see me years well at least no one can see you scroll technically um but it's like I always had the fear about if I went to overeaters anonymous I don't know they're just gonna see me in the window of the Italian restaurant, like coming back from the meeting, just like bent over. I don't know. Like they'll, I mean, at least you have to still eat. It's not like if you're caught in a restaurant, you're out of the club.
47:41Um, but wait, wait, pull me back to where you
47:44Kate Berlant:were. Cause I have so much to say one, cause you go, okay, how could I reckon with social media? Right. You go, how I've admitted that I'm powerless. Yeah. How, and, and the first thought was like well in order to manage you know you have if you have to for your business promote whatever how do you go in there without going in there oh you you get someone else to do it for you you you do content planning okay or whatever you have a little calendar of all your announcements okay and and someone else post them but wait wait i have more i have more yeah please this is how it always happens for me then i start going well what if you could make yourself your own assistant and what okay and then you go all right what if i create a second self that is emotionally detached i put on my emotional detached hat and i mean that literally folks i mean that literally you know like oh let me put on my blah blah hat i'm like get a hat get a woven cotton hat okay put it on and then and then adopt a persona okay and and head in like okay um okay kate i'm
48:50Jacqueline Novak:going in oh my god the hat is brilliant we need brilliant well i remember like i'm only allowed i'm not kidding you as usual your brilliance has freed me okay i'm going to buy a hat and when i'm on instagram i have to wear that okay me too this is actually huge and actually now it's becoming a
49:12Kate Berlant:little bit more of like a punishment you know what i mean like like as it should be right Where originally I was thinking of it more like Okay we're creating a secondary self That tolerates discomfort and isn't Emotionally attached which actually will bring Up because there is an element Of that in the war of art which is About turning pro and actually his second book Or one of his books is called turning pro And there's a thing about almost Detaching a little bit from the angst And just like you know like showing up and just doing Your fucking work whatever showing up Showing up to the page. Learning how to be miserable
49:43Jacqueline Novak:As you say as he says I love it Well, like learn how to be learning how to be. No, but the assistant thing, the detachment of that. You're a genius as usual. And I'm buying the hat because here's the one the one model for this future version of myself. I thought about is maybe I allow myself like on Sunday. That's the Lord's Day. I know. It's just going to say like Monday, like Monday, Monday, you get to log into social media. You know, Monday, I check my messages, whatever I post what I have to post. It doesn't have to be Monday. I just mean like there was one day a week you save shit you have to do for one day a week.
50:20Jacqueline Novak:Totally. And and it's like in the morning and in the evening and get out. And I think I've said this on a past POOG that like I feel like you have like the metaphor in my mind that's been helpful is like think of it like a burning building going get what you have to do and get the fuck out because I was literally I'm such an asshole to be like did I
50:36Kate Berlant:provide that metaphor to you because my my my I that's exactly how I treat it. okay it's a hot potato okay it's a it's you dip in and run okay you get in there you post you need a thing and you try to get the fuck out I mean anytime your thumb your thumb and even just now as I'm modeled scrolling okay with my thumb I felt a pain I felt an ache from the muscle now I don't actually do that much scrolling because it feels like the second I start to it's it's the It's like scrolling is truly handing over your consciousness, right? To formally being like cable television, whatever, where you channel surf, okay?
51:19Kate Berlant:Channel surfing, right? Had a quality of that. Like, let me just, right? And see what hits with no choice, right? No consciousness. And then now we've moved to like streaming, whatever, and you have to choose. At the very least, you have to choose. I mean, even if you're just scrolling through the options, you have to choose. but or you're searching for the thing you want to see right yeah but then we've recreated something where we surf and hand over our consciousness like i mean like like even like going on twitter and like scrolling through people you follow it's like let's see what everyone i know has come up with to tweet today it's like that sucks anyway so it's like handing over your consciousness to others thoughts and going i'll take them whatever it is throw it in my head yeah just dump it right
52:04Jacqueline Novak:here anything's better than what i have in here exactly wait but when you're telling yourself
52:11Kate Berlant:should the hat be uncomfortable
52:16Kate Berlant:okay like should the hat be 15 pounds yeah i think it's actually an interesting idea oh and i got another idea i think the hat should be a little too tight we're selling i have a huge head
52:26Jacqueline Novak:so most hats are going to be tight on me we should sell them this is a huge idea well yeah this is a It's utterly comical.
52:33Kate Berlant:I had to measure my head the other day because I was actually thinking about getting a hat and not just my visors, you know, my. And I think it's like a good fucking 23 inches or something, which, you know, you can see clearly the way I'm feeling the screen.
52:58Kate Berlant:I need a follow up on Jack and Diane. Kate, did you ever listen to it?
53:02Jacqueline Novak:No, I never listened to it.
53:04Kate Berlant:Did you something, if not first impression? Oh, Kate, did you ever listen to it? Did you recognize it after all? Right? No. And then first impression. So why don't we just end with, hold on, hold on. Play Jack and Diane.
53:26Jacqueline Novak:Oh, oh yeah, I know this. This is that? I keep going. This is crazy. This is like, wait, I know this. This sounds like eight other songs from this era. Wait.
53:43Jacqueline Novak:Hit us with the vocals, guys. Jesus.
53:49Jacqueline Novak:We can't do another.
53:53Jacqueline Novak:Okay, so. In the hot land. So this part, I don't know. I know the intro.
54:01Kate Berlant:Well, let's see if the chorus, though. Okay, okay. Of Jackie's car. Remember me singing this? Yeah, yeah. I think you're going to know the chorus, but that'll be the real test because the chorus is pretty serious. Classic. Sorry, one more verse, but it's worth it. Chilly dog outside the tasty freeze. Diane said no Jackie's lap. Got a hand between her knees. Damn. Oh.
54:49Are you faking?
54:50Kate Berlant:Are you texting?
54:51Jacqueline Novak:I'm looking at a really soon message from a hag.
54:55Kate Berlant:Okay. Okay. No, I'm here. I know the song, Kate. I know. No, no, I'm here with you. I'm laughing because you were nodding along like serviceably. I was grooving. Oh, OK.
55:08Jacqueline Novak:I was grooving. I do know the song. I know that. I know that. But I don't know the rest about the girl in the lap touching her pussy in the van or whatever the fuck is going on. It's really weird.
55:23Kate Berlant:Well. OK, you got to go. But hold on. Oh, my God. This is funny. Are you ready? Sorry. I just started my teaching career. Art teacher. I low-key hate it, all caps. What do I do?
55:44Jacqueline Novak:Love you. God, that's cool. Inspire the kids. Maybe it's changed. That's a joke. Maybe the hag came around. Get out. But if you hate it, you get out. Okay, I truly have to go.
55:54Kate Berlant:I'm curious how old those kids are. All right. We'll cover that in the future. We'll do more of these. It's a pretty compelling question. I'll talk to you guys later. Love you.
From the publisher
This week on Poog, we're bringing you another round of the hags' most formative moments: Jacqueline teaches Kate the Pallbearer Shuffle. The uppermost Pringle is considered. Shopping in Target before a cameo on Bonks That Kill. A technique for social media moderation is proposed. Jacqueline sings a little ditty about Jack and Diane, while Kate’s LAX uber gets stolen by a Brody Jenner look-alike.