Stephen Colbert on connection, discovery, and human nature

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28:44You know, like one of the things we started with is talking a little bit about like you have fact checkers on your show. And one of the things obviously, you know, Instagram doesn't. But one of the things that obviously is the huge discourse around the difference between, you know quote-unquote traditional media and quote-unquote new media is this notion of responsibility you know responsibility of fact-checking responsibility of of of standing for you know when when you make a claim to something in the world that you've done something substantive to try to make that claim accurate and who bears that responsibility well that's part of the question for you actually in part is how do you think about this not me no that's really never been like we choose that's why i was talking about fact checking we choose to do it because it actually is good for the joke uh-huh you know what i mean that's because because these shows generally speaking you know we all do them a little bit differently but these shows generally speaking are about whatever the national conversation was today we're kind of talking about our country back to the country and to the world based on the english-speaking world because we're in a bunch of different countries too, but we talk about America back to America and it really helps to try to be factually accurate.

29:58Now I'm going to give you my emotional reaction to what we believe is a factually accurate chunk of today's story. I only have a responsibility to the work that I do. Now the work that I do is served by being factual about it because that makes it easier to write the second joke. Because if you make up something for your first joke, you got to make up something for your second joke. You know what I mean? But one joke can build on another and the universe will conspire to give you the next part of the story if you're accurate about the first part of the story. It's almost like essay writing. When you get to the end of an essay and you can't finish your essay, probably because you didn't state your thesis very well at the top.

30:42So you have to go back at the top and go, what was the thesis of this? And so by being factually accurate, that is only like thematically useful to us in talking about whatever that subject is, because then there's probably another data point you can dig and find that supports the first joke that you made. But we don't even think about it that way. It's just that don't make shit up and you probably have a more successful set of jokes. That's all. I mean, you can always lie to get a laugh, but that's probably the last laugh you get on that subject. That's all. So I feel no responsibility in that regard.

31:17Like people say like, oh, people get their news. I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry that you get your news from me because I'm not trying to give you news. That's why I never want to break news for the audience. I want it to be things that they generally know about or I only have to explain a little bit because it's all about, here's my experience of the thing you experienced today. And also if you're factually accurate about it, you're more likely to hook up your jumper cables with the audience because they heard that same fact too. Well, so my question is like, I feel the humanness. You like Taylor Swift's songs.

31:49It has a great hook, but you also like it because Taylor Swift created it. There's something, again, about the human creation. When people think about AI, in addition to the reason I'm so excited about it is medical assistant and breakthroughs and breast cancer and all of these other things. But when you think about it in the context of entertainment, people talk about how it can be so personalized. So people could create for you a personalized whatever next Lord of the Rings that has Stephen Colbert's sensibilities. And people could write jokes that just like don't break news for you because your level of news is X, Y, Z, whereas someone else's they read The Times today and this person read this.

32:30And so the personalization is one of the things that AI does best. Like, is that interesting to you? Are you like, I'm not I'm not moved by that. That's not the future I want to see of entertainment. I mean, what you described was sort of theoretical. So I don't know whether I would like it, you know, because I haven't had that experience. I mean, it may already exist. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I just haven't had that experience. So maybe I would love it. But I generally don't go to even the things that I go to the most to have my experience reflected back at me, I want to delve into something that's a discovery.

33:09There's discovery and there's invention. And what you're talking about, I think, is invention. Something gets invented just for your needs, as opposed to discovery, which is always going to be greater than you could have thought of. And so, and like, as somebody started as improvisation, the way I used to think about why you didn't want to go in with pat material, why you didn't want to go in with what we call trunk, you didn't want to go with the same old, same old every time is because that was invention. You can only invent what's inside of yourself. The thing that you want and the thing that you achieve through creative engineering, if you know what I mean, which is craft, and there's nothing wrong with craft.

33:52But discovery is superior because discovery is outside of yourself. Discovery is something that you couldn't have thought of. you know, discovery is a whole new world. And even for things like, let's say the Lord of the Rings, which I go back to over and over and over again. You know, one of my writers this morning pitched and said, I think that if I gave myself six months, I could beat you in a Lord of the Rings quiz. And I said, I mean, if you wanted to do have nothing in your life for six months, but this, but that's what it would require is to have nothing in your life. Because I read those books when I was 12.

34:25And there were times when I had nothing in my life, but those books. And I lost track of reading them at 50, like, you know, the number of times Lord of the Rings. And I spent all my time listening to Lord of the Rings. I spent all of my time still to this day listening to lecture series. I'm listening to Corey Olson's lecture series on Lord of the Rings right now called Exploring the Lord of the Rings. It's like the fourth or fifth lecture series I've listened to. We're on episode two, 344. Every episode is at least an hour and a half long and maybe covers a page, maybe covers a page. We're not even done with the first book and we're on episode 344.

35:06And he's talking about, let's take these four lines and what is implied by those four lines. So the only reason I tell you all that is not to brag about what a chemopsychosis I fall into when it comes to Lord of the Rings or how dependent I am upon it. I tell you that because I don't go to do that because I know everything, or I don't go and to do that because I wanted just what I believe fed back to me. I want to know more about something. You know, obviously there's that infinite depth of story and kind of creativity and expression. Because I was also, by the way, a Lord of the Rings geek. I think if we were to do a quiz show, I think you would knock me out in round one.

35:49But like, what is Lord of the Rings, was in addition to this kind of rich creativity, storytelling, narrative universe, what does it mean for you? And does it inform at all how you look around at the world today? Yes. Okay. What does mean mean in this instance? And I don't mean to talk about what your definition of is is. what is the tendency of the story? What does the arithmetic mean? Not the average, but what is the tendency of the experiences of the book? And they tend to be about, a lot of it is about the natural world. A lot of it is in suspicion of abstracting from the natural world. In other words, secondary creation.

36:45or sub-creation. Tolkien talks a lot about sub-creation and that sub-creation was a natural tendency of human beings. And that we are made, you know, by definition, by a creator in his worldview. And that we have that in us and in the likeness of that creator, we wish to sub-create as well. Sub-creation is a big part of his work. And also a big pitfall is to love too well the work of your own hands is a great sin. and that your sub-creation should be in accord with creation and not in domination of that. That's the pitfall I believe that a professor would have with AI, is that you love too well the work of your own hand and that you replace the experience of the creation with your own sub-creation.

37:35You know, Sauron is an illusionist. When he's Annatar, the bringing of gifts, he says, He clothes himself in beauty, but it's false because his heart is dark. And there's nothing he can create that doesn't have the darkness in it. But even people with the best of intentions in Tolkien's world fall too in love with the thing that they've created. A Fianor creates the Silmarils, which is the ultimate sin. The original sin in the entire cosmology, the entire mythos is there's the greatest elf of all time, Fianor, whom his name means spirit of fire. Fianor wants the light of the two trees, Talperian and Laralyn, which was the light of the world.

38:29They weren't the first light. They were the second or third lights of the world. But these are the two trees that light the world along with the stars. and he captures the light of the two trees in these three gems called the Silmarils and then the two trees get killed by Morgoth and Ungoliant, the great spider, mother of Shelob and Morgoth, the boss of Saren. And Yavanna, who is basically the mother of the trees, goes, if you give me the light, I can bring these trees back and there'll be light in the world again. Give me the gems. And he goes, what's going to happen to the gems? He goes, well, I'd have to break them.

39:05and release the light to bring the two trees back. And he goes, no, you don't understand what I have done to create these. I can only do once. It took everything I know. And there was a specific moment essentially that allowed me to do this, a moment of inspiration that allowed me to create this thing. And I would die if these things were to die. And so I would rather the world be in darkness and I have the only light rather than to help anyone else. That is loving too much the work of your own hand, even though he loves the light of heaven, essentially, in them. So those are themes. Another theme is, well, sacrifice.

39:43What is Fionn or not willing to do? He's not willing to sacrifice something he loves. What is the great sacrifice of Galadriel? Frodo offers her the ring. And she says, I confess that I've long desired this. And if I took this, I would be a queen. And all would, you know, beautiful and terrible. and all would love me in despair. Because she wants to be the queen of all Middle Earth. That's in her. That's why she's there. She's not an unalloyed good character. But she passes on that. And then she says this great line, which is, I passed the test. I will diminish and pass into the West and remain Galadriel.

40:31because that's about the acceptance of the world as it is, not seizing power to manipulate into the world that you want it to be. Which isn't to say you can't improve conditions, but it's the seeking power in Tolkien's world is rejecting the world that was created for you. I mean, all those things, come on, all those things. Anyway, that's a short answer. It's an excellent answer. And it draws parallels to some of the ways that I think about Lord of the Rings, which is the role of power in human life and society, which is the craft of remaking nature and so forth. And the potential that power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely, which is part of the Sauron versus Galadriel.

41:27And you can look at the two towers as Saruman and Galadriel, two different, you know, so-called warriors for the good, making different decisions on power. And of course, that's emphasized by your nature comments by Saruman's, you know, kind of destruction of the antiforest around him. Anyways, there's very parallel points of view there. there's a great um letter i think it's letter 144 yeah by tolkien and he says um the story is cast in terms of a good side and a bad side beauty against ruthless ugliness tyranny against kingship which is interesting dichotomy in tolkien's mind because we would see kingship as tyranny, but kingship, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent.

42:27In other words, we're free. There have to be moderations on freedom so we can live with society and it has to be done with consent. Moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power. And I think that is a big struggle going on right now is that can we accept moderated freedom with consent or are we going to end up with ruled by those who have lost any object save mere power? I think that's the great danger of our moment. So this might be a good moment to come back on kind of AI. Sure. You know, part of the thing, you know, Like what I've been trying to try to help reform a lens on, on kind of how we think of ourselves as less homo sapiens, more homo techni.

43:20The way that we express ourselves as human beings through technology, I think language is a form of technology. I think that the question about like how we, how we evolve, because obviously genetic is, is very slow. Could get way faster with your help from your friend AI. Yes, exactly. But, but AI is, I think that form of technological, you know, kind of like that, that technological journey of homo techne. And I think that doesn't mean that all technology is inherently, you know, good and useful. Like if we end up creating a, you know, a nuclear, you know, tar ball of a planet, we will have seriously fucked up.

44:05but the question is, is it also creates a lot of what is, I think, the ability to do kind of more, you know, human things. It's kind of the, you know, broad-based middle-class and education and literacy and, you know, ability to have, you know, leisure to have a theater and have a stage. And I think technology is the enablement of that path. And I think AI is that. And so it will naturally be that, most likely. And we have to shape it some. But there's everything from the utility of it, like a medical assistant that's there 24-7 in every pocket. It isn't just getting new drug molecules, but, you know, the vast majority of the eight plus billion people on the planet do not have easy access to a doctor.

44:59And so a medical system, but also I think, you know, to the, to the kind of learning path, you know, AI is the best learning technology, learning being part of how we elevate as, as human beings that has been invented, even including the book now builds on the book as a way of doing it. And so that's part of the humanness of AI that I think is actually in fact really important and part of the reason why, you know, I keep trying to pitch you on that there is AI, and I know that you're not an AI skeptic, but actually that we can see a lens to a more human future with AI. That could very well be the case.

45:42I'm not just not an AI skeptic, I'm an AI ignorant. You know, I really, I'm speaking about what I perceive from the outside. And I kind of like being on the outside. I kind of like, like, show me the evidence of what it's done. Don't get me hooked on my excitement of the possibility. You know, I'll invest a lot in my excitement about the possibility. I know that. Because the same reason why I don't have my tarot read is that I don't actually believe the tarot is right, but those images are so powerful that I'll invest them with my excitement and my belief in them. And I'll do this with AI too.

46:23I'm just hanging fire here and going, show me the thing that couldn't happen before. What is the thing that could not happen before? That may have moved beyond potentiality. You might be able to give me 10 right now. I just don't know what they are. I think AI is already good enough that consulting it for a second opinion that's different, that's important and different than or first opinion is actually, in fact, really useful. I don't mean to be obdurate, but I just, every example I get, I always want to go, okay, well, at the base of this argument is why should this be coming? Why should I get this from a human?

46:58Not from a human. Why is this better than this being a human doing this? I think access is huge. I think that like you and I can get a second opinion, like costlessly, but I think so many people can't. So that is actually what's exciting to me. like so much technology centralizes, but the idea that like we could have, we, of course you can, a human is better. Yeah, I'd love to go to a human therapist, but I can't afford a human therapist because I don't have$200 a week. So even if it's actually inferior to humans, the access that more people get it is better than nothing. You might not be there, but.

47:34I, I, I'm a hundred percent on board with you. You're absolutely right. Therapy is not the best example. Okay, forget that I said that. Forget that I said that. Just medical, like medical. You're absolutely right. That's very, that's very like narrow. That's very, you know, narrow sided of me. You're absolutely right. And as you say, in many parts of the world, there is no access to any medical care anywhere. And this could, you could have a med, a medical station manned by AI someplace else. Therapy. That's okay. That's about what is being alive. I would find that I mean I have trouble trusting a therapist about Noah's being alive let alone took me a long time to go like you might understand what I'm saying listen I love my job but I can't do it forever I'm just curious if I was going to have another career after this and involve AI in it what would it be what would you recommend can someone it's you know what am I 61 let's say 62 let's say 63 let's say 65 let's give me a few let's give me four more years of this show Well, I do think it will amplify.

48:42I think people are already finding that it amplifies writers. I find that the second opinion thing, like I start with a, anytime that like, for example, Aria is familiar with this is anytime I start thinking about something, I'll actually do an AI research query. And like Aria knows kind of my thinking well enough, I could just send over the query to her and she goes, oh, this is what he's elaborating and thinking on. And it creates a faster move between us as kind of a, as a way of creating things. So like, I'm like, you know, if I have a hobby, it's like creating board games. Like I've been thinking about different patterns that you could make with these kind of battle card games.

49:25And so I did a prompt and I just sent it over to Aria and she's like, oh, I see where he's thinking. Right. Because I was thinking, like, give me an index of kind of all the different rule sets and line that up to these themes that I'm thinking about. And, you know, da-da-da-da. And that kind of creates a, hey, this could be a fun project to create. And it's more of a question of how do you use AI to extend your creativity, your gestures. And I think that those exist. Now, it isn't, per se, I think even now, a particularly good joke writer. I mean, we talked about this on your show as part of the reason why - They're very serviceable jokes.

50:05Yeah. Yeah. It's dad jokes and other kinds of things. It's fine. It's, you know, how many Reid Hoffmans does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but he has to bring his whole network. You know, that kind of thing. That's a chat GBT written light bulb joke. You know, so, but you directing it and using it as kind of a set of orchestral tools, that becomes very, very possible, very real. Is it presently being used? I must be, right? Presently being used in video game development? Because one of the great struggles of video game development has always been to is randomization of the experience.

50:47So that's totally doable. A lot of the earliest things in AI for video game is making it much faster and quicker to develop a bunch of different assets. You know, the picture, the scenario, the characters and all the rest, there's NPC characters that are now much more intelligent because they're backed by AI. But that's just obviously the very beginning of what becomes possible. I feel like I've been way too tough on AI in this conversation when I really am excited for whatever it brings. I just have a natural skepticism of technology. Well, this technology specifically because how much science fiction I've read.

51:29And also my love of how much I love humans and how bad humans are at things.

51:43And now to Rabbit Fire. Is there a movie, song, or book that fills you with optimism for the future? Well, I mean, when you think about optimism for the future and you think about books, My mind often goes to science fiction, of course. And I would say some of the most optimistic visions of the future are even even in his darker stories are Asimov because he he believes in the power of technology. and asimov as you know wrote in every every section of the dewey decimal system has an asimov book in it and so he was this uh polymath who believed in knowledge and was really a product of enlightened enlightenment thinking you know and and what makes me hopeful for the future is that kind of science fiction and not that there aren't going to be dark times not that there are going to be great falls of civilization, but that really toward the scientific and the rational is the right way to go without losing sight of the human experience.

52:49All right. Rapid fire number two. What is a, yeah, you're good. You're good. What is a question that you wish you got asked more often? Can I get you something to drink? Great. Done. So where do you see progress or momentum outside of comedy that inspires you? Jose Andres inspires me. World Central Kitchen, the simplicity of their message, we feed people. That's their motto. We feed people. And it's a complex organization now because it's so big, but their mission has not changed. Something terrible happens, they go try to feed people with whatever they've got. It's very improvisational. They're just going like, do you have any pans?

53:36We have sheet metal. Fine. We'll bang them into pans. You know what I mean? Like whatever they got, because you know, it's going to be paella at the end of the day.

53:46Or pasta. Yeah, exactly. Can you leave us with a final thought on what you think is possible to achieve if everything breaks humanity's way in the next 15 years? And what's our first step to get in that direction? I think, I don't even know if these are good goals, but some of them are just goals that I would like. And I think that would be inspirational. I mean, I think going back to the moon would be good. I think people walking on the moon would be good. I think there is something sinister with the fact that we haven't done it. Because I think that is a unifying moment for someone. I don't care if it's us.

54:29Let the Chinese do it. Let the Russians do it. Let the Indians do it. Let the Kiwis do it for Pete's sake. They've got a space program. And, you know, I don't, I just get back up there. Get back up there. You know, this is too small of a basket, as Heinlein says. Earth is too small of a basket for humanity to keep all its eggs. And I'm not even saying that, like, boy, living on other planets is gonna be very difficult. I don't know if terraforming is a possibility, but just to know that that kind of achievement is possible, I think would have a unifying psychological effect for mankind. If anybody would believe that it was happening because another conspiracy would come up, that that's not even the moon anymore.

55:08That was actually paper mache. But I think that would be an interesting thing. I don't know if it's possible, but I think if you give me 15 years to dream, If I'm allowed to dream over technological advances, especially with our friend AI joining in the fight here, hey, I've lost too many friends to cancer. I think wrangling the most difficult cancers to the ground. A lot of progress over some of the more common cancers, but some of the terrible pancreatic cancer, brain cancer, those things are very difficult to treat. That would be great. I would take a smart pill. If someone could give me a pill, that were like one of those limitless pills, I would take one of those.

55:52Those gotta be coming, right? There's no downside to that possibly, is there? No. I also hope, I'm just hoping in the next 15 years that someone could paint a picture of me that I could keep in my attic, that it would grow old and I would stay young forever. I've heard how that ends. Dorian Colbert. There you go.

56:18Possible is produced by Wonder Media Network. It's hosted by Ari Finger and me, Reid Hoffman. Our showrunner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Katie Sanders, Edie Allard, Tanasi Dilos, Sarah Schleid, Vanessa Handy, Aliyah Yates, Paloma Moreno-Gimenez, and Mulea Agudelo. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and editor. Special thanks to Surya Yalamanchili, Saida Sepieva, Ian Alice, Greg Beato, Parth Patil, and Ben Rallis. And a big thanks to Steve Bodo, Betty Hald, Dan Berdansky, and Anna Steinmetz.

57:05This podcast is supported by Google. Hey folks, Stephen Johnson here, co-founder of Notebook LM. As an author, I've always been obsessed with how software could help organize ideas and make connections. So we built Notebook LM as an AI-first tool for anyone trying to make sense of complex information. Upload your documents and Notebook LM instantly becomes your personal expert, uncovering insights and helping you brainstorm. Try it at notebooklm.google.com.