Parker Gals | The PE Career Path Nobody Plans For (w/ Angela McCoy, May River)

0:00Private equity just has a bad reputation for being kind of habitual cost cutters and like laying people off and not investing in their businesses. And that is, in my experience, particularly at May River, like the total opposite of what actually happens when we acquire businesses.

0:31Cass: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Parker Gals. I have with me today Angela McCoy. Angela, how are you doing today? I'm great, Cass. How are you? I'm great. I think the fun thing about this is I just get to talk to my friends and people that I worked with in the past over and over again. So, like, kudos to this being part of my day job now. I love it for you. Yes. So Angela and I actually I was thinking about this earlier this morning when I was preparing for this. I was like Angela and I like met like three years ago and I'm like oh my gosh like seven. Yeah I mean definitely more than six because it was at my prior firm and I've been at my current firm for over six years.

1:15So I mean at least seven maybe eight honestly.

1:18Cass: Yeah long time ago. Time flies. Yes, I was an intern at PSP Capital. And Angela, you were a VP, principal VP? Well, I started there as an associate. When you were an intern, I was probably a VP. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And so I was just doing my like, MBA internship, like two or three days a week in kind of dipping in and out and basically just wanting to hang out with Angela. And then joined you guys for like about a month at the end of the summer, because for some reason, Booth's calendar like starts in September or something like that. So like everybody else is back at school and we're just hanging out.

2:04Cass: And what better thing to do than just like work for an extra month? Right, exactly. Be in the office. So much fun. Yes. But yeah, we met at PSP Capital. and then currently you are a principal? Managing director. Managing director. I was like yeah I feel like you're you're up there. A managing director at May River. So you left and joined as a principal at May River. Yeah. 2020. Exactly. So like can you give me a little bit about your history of kind of like what types of companies you've invested in and then at May River, kind of what's the mandate? What are you guys focused on? Yeah. So PSP is a family office.

2:46I was on the private investments team there. And while I was there, I would think about it, and you as well, when you were there, think about it as kind of more of a generalist approach. So functioned much like a private equity firm, but investing from a balance sheet rather than an institutional fund. But in terms of sector, when I was there, we kind of looked at the lit the investment strategy as a three-pronged approach. It was business services, advanced manufacturing, and value-added distribution, and food and consumer. And I think the strategy has shifted a little bit since I've been there, but it wasn't necessarily a specifically sector focused.

3:24It was sort of more of a generalist strategy.

3:26Cass: Which is a nice place to spend a decade learning. Totally. You weren't specialized in any one, pegged into any one thing. You were able to grow into and see all these different industries and different types of businesses. Exactly. What I loved about my experience there was just that I got to see a really broad range of industries, businesses, size of businesses, because we had flexible and permanent capital and a flexible approach. It enabled us to invest in a lot of different types of transactions. So we did, you know, obviously buyout, middle market buyout transactions. We did co-investing in much larger transactions alongside different private equity firms.

4:09Their venture strategy sort of started when I was there and has continued to grow as a significant sort of a significant strategy for the firm. So I really saw a pretty broad spectrum of types of transactions, types of businesses. And I feel like, you know, kind of the perspective and, you know, experience that I built there was really valuable, right, kind of for as a starting point or kind of foundationally for my private equity career.

4:39Cass: Totally. And then May River focuses on, what do you focus on at May River? So May River is very different. You know, it's a regular way private equity firm. So we're investing out of institutional committed funds. When I joined, Fund 2 had just closed. Now we're investing out of Fund 3, and we are a sector-focused fund. So we focus on lower middle market industrial businesses. That's all we do. We're focused on businesses that are engineered products. They have pricing power. They're mission critical. There's a high cost of failure. There's some differentiation in what they offer, either IP or trade secrets or know-how or process differentiation that enables them to command pricing power.

5:21They typically have higher margins than your typical industrial and manufacturing businesses. So we target businesses that have 50 % gross margins, 20 plus percent EBITDA margins. So we play in kind of a specific niche within the industrial complex, but that goes across subsectors. So it's not one specific subsector. It could be aerospace and defense. It could be flow control. It could be testing, inspection, and certification. It could be packaging. So we're really looking at the attributes of the business. And certainly there are subsectors that we play in more than others. But we're really, we really look at kind of the whole industrial complex.

5:59Cass: Yeah, that's very cool. And then you started in January 2020? No. Yes. So I started in April of 2020. So right, right as the pandemic was getting underway. So they're like, here's your zoom login. Right, exactly. I started my first day was remote and remote and And I was pregnant. So it was remote and pregnant. And then I think I was in the office a couple of times before I had our second child and then was on maternity leave. So 2020 was just a really strange year for me professionally, personally. I think it was a strange year for the entire world. Well, and then you had an older son who's like probably around and hanging around the hoop.

6:44Cass: And you're just like, what do I do with it? Yeah. No, it was a wild time. And I remember coming into the office in January of 2021 when most people were still working remotely. But we started kind of getting back into the office in a sort of safe way. And we were talking about, you know, the year in review. And I was like, you know, 2020 was a really weird year for me professionally and personally. And, you know, I don't really know what to I'm not really sure what to say about it. Yes. Joined a new firm halfway through the year, was out on maternity leave. So it was it was an interesting time.

7:19But obviously, you know, it's been a phenomenal experience. And I love the firm and I love the people and I love what I do. But it was an interesting start to to a new role. Yeah, I major kudos.

7:33Cass: I had no idea what to expect. I had my first daughter in 2022. And I like in the depths of it being hard, I was like, well, at least it's not 2020. Like 2020 20 parents are just built different. Yeah. Yeah. It was a wild time. Yes. We've come so far. We've come so far. But and now we can do fun things like remote podcasts. This is like I feel like an offshoot of just like the world we're living now. So we're going to get into the next section called the IOI, the indication of interests. I love the names. Yes. We try to have fun with this. And so just like a couple of fun personal questions. So what's your go to comfort show?

8:20I would say so. I don't watch a lot of reality TV currently. I feel like a lot of, you know, people, their comfort show or their guilty pleasure is like a Kardashian or Real Housewives. But I would say I don't watch those regularly. So my go to comfort show is a little bit of a throwback. It would either be Friends, which I feel like I've seen every episode five times, but could watch it again and again or Sex and the City, which just reminds me of hanging out with sorority sisters and girlfriends and, you know, just lifelong friends that I've known forever. And, you know, just like chilling on the couch with them.

8:53So that those like our feelings of comfort. Right. From memories.

8:59Cass: Now, are you a purist and you watch it like in order when you're watching it? Like, hey, I'm going to go back and I'm going to watch Friends. or you're just like, whatever episode, I'm there. I know exactly where we're at. Whatever episode. I've seen them all from every season for both shows multiple times, and I could watch them again and again. And it really doesn't matter in what order. Totally. I think the biggest knock that I, like, cultural knock that I like to look back on now is, like, how did these people afford these places? Four Friends and Sex and the City is just like, sorry, what?

9:33Right, exactly. In that phase of their lives, you're like, that's not realistic.

9:38Cass: But now we have Instagram that does the exact same thing. Exactly. And then what's something that you can cook without a recipe? So I don't cook a lot in my current life. I wish I cooked more. But when I did cook, I could and I had more time. I would say lasagna is something I can easily cook without a recipe. I feel like I've made it so many times. I don't I definitely don't need to look at anything. That was my final in high school when I took like a foods class. Yeah, it was just called foods. Yeah, I had a food class in high school, too. It was like not home ec. Yeah, I don't know if it was like a foods.

10:17Yeah. And the final was lasagna.

10:19Cass: How'd it go? It I I think it went well. I remember that I was paired up with people who were like weren't that into it. and I felt like very this is like story of group projects and like people probably in our industry right I was like maintaining control yeah I remember being way more stressed than they were about foods class but lasagna is a good one I remember when we were working together like how silly this sounds now but I was like I was very obsessed with Trader Joe's I remember that I remember that actually. I still kind of am, but I would like bring in Trader Joe's meals for lunch a lot or like some kind of combination of Trader Joe's stuff, like quick stuff.

11:05Cass: Because back then I thought that I didn't have a lot of time, which is just like you probably were like, oh, like, wow, you're an MBA who has like all of the time in the world. Like, but all of the Trader, love the Trader Joe's meal hacks. for me. And then last indication of interest is what is your perfect Saturday? Oh, this is, this is a tough one. There's so many good ways to spend a Saturday, but I would say my, our, my favorite weekend days generally, or I think if I could pick one day would be a warm day, have summer, fall, it would go on some type of adventure with my kids during the day.

11:50We're Like to stay busy. Yeah. We like we there's this like little farm we go to that has like baby animals and like take a tour and hold them and pet them. So something like that. Or, you know, we live in the suburbs now, but we love to go to the city and go to like shed or the field museum or the museum of science and industry and spend time doing things that are interactive. Yeah. So it would be something like that. One of those activities with our kids and then probably come home and get a babysitter and go out to dinner with friends. Yes. Yes. I love that. It's always like you can skip bedtime.

12:25Cass: It's like a little treat. It is a little treat. It is a little treat. I like very much try to toe the line of like dropping somebody off to a babysitter before I have to handle that. But I am not going to come back until I know that that I'm going to check the monitor. Oh, yeah. If I'm coming back at nine o 'clock and it's like iffy, I'm like, I'm not walking in that door. Nope. Walk around the block, sit in the car. Until that kid is asleep. Yeah. I love that. Okay, so let's get into your career a little bit. So what drew you to private equity, the industry in general? So I started my career in leverage finance at Bank of America in their Charlotte office.

13:10I was an intern between my junior and senior year in undergrad. I got a full-time offer. So I joined in 2007 as a full-time analyst in the Leverage Finance group there. So for those of you that were around during that time, which some of the people listening probably weren't, but that was right before the global financial crisis in 08 and 09. So I stayed in Leverage Finance through that time, which was a really interesting, formative experience for me as a young professional. But I was lucky enough to kind of stay in my group, in my role through the downturn. I did three years as an analyst and then was promoted right to associate.

13:50And I stayed in the associate role for a year. But the longer that I stayed in leveraged finance, the more I realized that it was sort of pigeonholing me into a career. I was learning a lot. I think I remember like updating my resume and kind of counting the number of transactions that I had closed. And it was like over 100, right, in a four-year period. And like, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars in capital, right? And so you work on just such a range and such a volume that you can't help but just soak in so much knowledge, right? And start kind of building this huge base of kind of how to deal with different types of situations.

14:30And you learn about so many different industries. But I think I realized I don't necessarily want to decide in this moment after four years that leveraged finance is what I'm going to do for the rest of my career. And we worked on obviously a lot of LBOs during that time and then a lot of distress situations for private equity businesses that were in default, right, or worse during that time. So I got to know kind of the industry of private equity and know firms. And as I reflected on my experience in Leverage Finance, I thought this is definitely a skill set and a knowledge base that I can leverage in private equity.

15:07And, you know, Lev Fin is very transactional as well, right? It's different than private investing or principal investing. So it seemed like a natural next step for my career if I didn't want to stay in life, which certainly I had the opportunity to do. But if I didn't want to, for me at the time, it seemed, well, private equity is kind of like the natural next step for me to leverage what I've learned and the skill sets and the knowledge in something in a type in work that's not as transactional. There's certainly a transaction component to it, but then there's a lot more after that. Right.

15:38Cass: Yes. Like how many platform deals are you doing a year at May River? So as a firm, we do like two to three, right? So it's just, it's a different pace altogether. But then the majority of my time is really spent on the portfolio management and value creation after you already own the business. Yep. Yep. Okay. So you were banking during the global financial crisis. Yep. Switch jobs during COVID. There's like a crazy theme here. Let me know what you're doing next. Like, right. Exactly. Job changes. And I'll just like, edit my investment. Right. Something is coming. Something transformational is coming.

16:19Yes. Happens to coincide exactly when I, for what, with when I, every time that you have a, yeah, a major job career shift.

16:27Cass: Yeah. Everything else just decides to shift with you. But that's, that's not so hard because you probably were like, you know, obviously it's a downturn. You still have your job in an industry where there's a ton of cuts happening, it is scary to make a decision kind of to, hey, I have some security here in an area where like maybe not a lot of people do feel secure. And then to be like, but I kind of need to do this next step for me and leave this security of something that like I could feasibly keep doing. A hundred percent. I really sort of wrestled with that decision because I was in investment banking or leveraged finance at a time when many people lost their jobs.

17:08It was extraordinarily painful and sad to watch. And there was a lot of uncertainty. And I saw, you know, just a ton of turmoil. And I felt really, honestly, fortunate and lucky to keep my job. And then coming out of it, I was like, to your point, I was like, do I just want to give this up? Like, I'm what I have here is pretty good and like it's going pretty well. And it was a bit of a leap to say, I'm going to leave this very stable and secure job that has really, you know, treated me well along the way. A lot of people, you know, investment banking is a tough job and it's a tough career, but I actually had a generally good experience with it.

17:47You know, global financial crisis aside, I learned a lot and I worked with good people and I, you know, I liked it. But, you know, I knew kind of deep down, like, I could stay and do this. And I think that would be a great career. And it is a great career for a lot of people. But I, I thought I was sort of not giving myself enough of an opportunity set, right? Kind of like I didn't, I didn't want to close doors for myself in the future. This is the time when doors are still quite open. Right, exactly. And I was like, if I keep going down this path, I'm probably closing some doors for myself. And, uh, but to your point, it was, it was definitely a tough decision because I, you know, it's, you know, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush or whatever that saying is like, do I, you know, do I really want to leave something that is, has provided me with a lot of stability and, um, has, you know, been rewarding or, and move on to an unknown.

18:45Right. Right. So that was, it was a difficult decision. I mean, ultimately I'm super happy and grateful and And I think it was the right decision. But at the time, I was very torn about it.

18:55Cass: Yeah. And this might get a little bit into like, I'm curious about who has shaped your career, right? And like mentors and people that you leaned on. So maybe that this is probably an instance in which you probably leaned on and asked a lot of questions of people. So, you know, maybe either with this story of like switching careers, or as you think about the arc of your career? Kind of who has shaped that career and kind of how? Yeah. I always think about the people that have shaped my career along the way over the arc. As someone said this to me once, and I've always thought of it that way ever since, is sort of like a board of advisors, right?

19:34Or like a personal board where you are, and that board doesn't necessarily stay the same over the arc of your career, but it's always individuals. For me, it's been more individuals that I don't work with that I sort of like are in the industry, but are peers at other firms or mentors and that are at other firms, but informally so, right, or just individuals who you meet and connect with throughout your career that become organically sort of allies, right, and champions of you and advocate for you in rooms that you're not in, right, but are not people you necessarily work with directly. Like those individuals, I feel like have helped me make decisions throughout my career, helped me decide sort of when it was time to look for the next role, helped me negotiate, right?

20:23Or just think about, you know, have given me confidence in myself based on, you know, what they know about me that I maybe didn't have or validated, right? Kind of what I was thinking, But, you know, there was maybe some doubt or question in my mind. So it's always been individuals like that. And they haven't stayed the same throughout my career. Right. Like they've, you know, they've kind of come in and out as like my career has grown and shifted and life phases have changed. Right. Or, you know, sometimes those people stay throughout the arc of your career and sometimes they don't. And that's totally fine.

21:00Right. But it's always been some combination of those. And it's and it's honestly largely been been women. But there have been there have been some men, too, but that have been sort of allies and thought partners. Right. And have provided sort of an objective outside point of view that isn't colored by the people that work with you every day. Right. Yeah.

21:21Cass: I mean, it I do think there is something some special sauce to a like somebody who's outside of your every day taking a peek in. And like, because you're just you just like are living the day to day with other people, right, that might not see something that somebody from an outside perspective sees. The other thing that I think about acutely currently is so at our firm, we get really nerdy about books sometimes. And right now we're a lot of us are reading this book called Running Down a Dream. and it has uh it's and it's a lot about like hey how do you find a career you're passionate about and you love and how do you like stay in an industry and learn deeply about an industry and succeed in an industry and I think there's a section of that book where he talks a lot about peer network um and like actually like caring and building with your peers around you who are at other firms who are doing the same thing like for obviously for us other firms right but like instances in the book are like other sports teams or other sure you know whatever that may be in your in your industry um and I think what I especially love about your answer and what I love about that is um I think it's easy to like see peers as like almost adversarial or like how can they really be that helpful to me versus we're all just going to lift each other up a hundred percent and I do think and part of the reason that like this podcast is near and dear to my heart is I do think in Chicago we do have a lot of women that like go out of their way everyone's so busy yeah but I do think there are pockets of moments where like people do go out of their way to like make sure we keep this community together and try to go I mean you were just out to dinner this week with some women yeah and um we're we always we keep missing each other at the events we go to we're gonna get it one of these days that's right um but I I like am so inspired by and you just like it I think like it's a huge miss when people look at their peers as maybe not fountains of information or knowledge or adversarial or somebody they're competing with versus like a rising tide lifts all ships and like how can we like an abundance mindset of like let's share and figure out how to all navigate this together.

23:51I could not agree more. I honestly the peer network so when I started at PSP the firm was you know bigger but my specific group was three people when I started there was me as an associate who'd never been in private equity before a VP and a managing director and I had no peers and I came from a like a bullpen of like lots of analysts and associates right a ton of peers and so I had to go find that peer network outside of the firm and it was hard at first but I'm so happy that I did it because it some of those, you know, women that I talked about earlier that are sort of like advisors, right, or like a personal board members are women that have helped grow and shape my career, women I'm still in touch with, right?

24:40And others and peers at other private equity firms were hugely instrumental during that time. Number one, because I had no idea what I was doing and there was no chat GPT to tell me how to do it. So I needed to leverage others at private equity firms who had been doing this for longer than I had and that I could learn from. And just at that stage and throughout, the peer network for me, and again, a lot of women, but not all, have just been invaluable. As I reflect back on my career to this point, I'm super grateful for truly people like you and others who I've met along the way who have made the experience so much more meaningful and have helped me be successful.

25:27And to your point, I feel like very compelled to give that back, you know, in whatever that, however that means. Right. I just be a champion for others in the industry, help them be a resource for them, be a thought partner. Right. To the extent that it's helpful because it has really, it truly has been invaluable for me. Yeah.

25:48Cass: That is a great point, too, is like, especially in the lower middle market like it you're on a small team I mean here at Parker Gale there's like 13 of us like right it is lonely and like as you think about the tiering of like hey I'm the only associate I was the first associate here I was the only one and so like how are you gonna learn if you don't really have necessarily like peers in your firm you have to go outside your firm so exactly I think that's a great point um speaking of forever learning from other people. But let's think about like, you know, everything in our industry, I feel like is just like a lifelong lesson.

26:26Cass: But yeah, can you tell me something that you've learned recently that maybe you wish you had known earlier that you like, didn't find out until kind of or didn't feel or find out until like, very recently? Yeah, I think recently, what I've noticed in myself is just kind of a bit of a shift in how I approach conversations or topics professionally. I feel like I now have a much more profound appreciation and awareness of all of the experience that I've had as someone who's been in financial services for her entire career up until this point. I have seen a lot of transactions and I've seen a lot of businesses and that knowledge kind of builds on itself.

27:14And I think up until recently, I still sort of viewed myself as someone who didn't like have the answer or have a perspective that was valuable that someone else didn't have. And I didn't kind of give myself the credit for that. And I'm not saying I'm the smartest person in the room or I know everything because I definitely do not. And I'm always learning and growing. And there are people who are a lot smarter than me in this industry. But I do think that I have just sort of a greater level of appreciation and awareness of the knowledge and experience and perspective that I bring and that I kind of have the confidence now to know that it's valuable and that I bring something to the table that others without that experience and knowledge and perspective don't have and that it's helpful if I share that and not, you know, that's not seen as with like a negative connotation, right?

28:08So I feel like I can speak with more authority and more confidence on topics than probably, you know, probably even like a year or two ago, I didn't have that perspective or that, that awareness, right? So I, it's definitely been like a shift, like a mental shift for me that I think has honestly been really good for me and personally and professionally, but it's not, it really is something that, you know, again, maybe even one or two years ago, I didn't really, I didn't really have that, that attitude about it. or that appreciation for it.

28:42Cass: So there's a lot of times when I'm like, I'm in a meeting and I'm like, well, this is a silly question. I should know it. And then like somebody else asks that question and that somebody is like, oh, that's a great question. Right. Oh, I shouldn't have known that. Right. Right. I think I've also gotten more comfortable at asking silly questions. Totally. Because I think you just assume that you have to know these things. And actually, it's a sometimes it's a position of knowing more, of knowing like, oh, we didn't hit this basic thing to understand the rest of it. So let's go back to that basic thing.

29:16Yeah. Somebody else didn't pick up on that. And you're like, actually, they glossed over that and we should double click on it. But it's actually experience and a lot of reps in this industry that teach you what to ask and where to dig in, Right. Even if you're worried that it's a silly question or someone else might know the answer. But to have the confidence to do that and not second guess yourself like, oh, shouldn't ask that. I'm not going to sound like I know what I'm talking about. So I'll Google that later. Right. Exactly. I actually think that's a sign of like maturity and experience. Right.

29:51And so, you know, again, that's something that is kind of an evolution of thought for me that has happened pretty recently.

30:00Cass: Awesome. And then as we think about private equity, the industry or just in general, like your role and what you're learning, like what are you most interested in or excited about right now in the industry or in your role? Yeah. Or at your companies? Yeah, I think for me, I came to May River having a lot of conviction around a sector-focused strategy and why that was sort of a winning strategy within private equity long term. Again, I learned so much being part of a generalist firm, but I really felt in 2020 and when I moved over that being a lower middle market sector focused fund with kind of a very significant focus on operations and portfolio management and value creation being heavily involved in that.

30:55I really thought that was a winning strategy. And I think from my perspective, what you're seeing in terms of, you know, private equity firms and kind of the trends and the momentum and where LPs want to, you know, invest, I do think that that has been very much true. And so, you know, it's not necessarily something new or different or that is like a new trend or change within private equity. But I, you know, I do feel like having a lower middle market sector focused fund is kind of, you know, is a is a winning approach. Yeah.

31:30Cass: I think I made a bet and I think it's paying off. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, you know, and it doesn't have to be industrials. I do think industrials is well positioned right now in terms of, you know, hard ass and slow obsolescence. So I like it doesn't have to be industrials. Right. I think a lot of sector focused approaches can be winning strategies in this market. Yes, I agree. I I also think that's not to say that there aren't generalist firms that will continue to succeed. Oh, absolutely. I say this about P.E. Ops a lot, too, is like I think there are a lot of firms that went with like a generalist P.E.

32:08Cass: Ops partner approach. and I think similar to the trend of like PE firms going into specialization that like I do think there is something to operators and you all have operators similar like you have people like me who is just more on like the finance exact side of things like having a little bit of specialization is where my prediction and our prediction at Parker Gale that like other firms are going to head towards if they aren't there already, like following a similar arc and story to how firms had an investment mandate from like generalists to people are LPs are kind of rewarding that specialization.

32:46Cass: Exactly. Yeah, I see it exactly the same way. All right. So so what else? So you you saw that kind of trend. I don't know that I was on like the leading edge of it. But to your point for your career. I made a bet with my career. And I think it, you know, I'm I had conviction in it. And I think that that has sort of played out in a way that has been, you know, validating. I'll say. Yeah. So as you think about private equity to like what is a commonly held belief that people have about private equity that you would disagree with? So when I talk about private equity to people who are not in the private equity industry, I always say, or I have always said, that I think private equity just has a bad reputation for being kind of habitual cost cutters and like laying people off and not investing in their businesses.

33:45And that is, in my experience, particularly at May River, like the total opposite of what actually happens when we acquire businesses. When we acquire businesses, we are actually building out management teams. We're adding headcount. We're adding SG &A costs. We're hiring people. We're building out a commercial team. We're building out an engineering team. In businesses that didn't have these functions before, if they had the function, it was one or two people and now it's a team of eight people, right? So we're actually creating jobs and adding costs to the businesses so that we can accelerate growth on the back end of our investment.

34:22And so ultimately, like we're job creators, right? And we're value builders. We're not kind of slash and burn private equity investors. And I think that reputation has been earned because of big players and kind of an old style or approach to private equity investing that isn't really that doesn't work anymore. Or if it does work, it only works in very specific situations. And many firms, we're not the only firm that does this, obviously, but we do. And many other firms are actually creating jobs. And it's a benefit to the overall local economy in which that company operates. And for us as lower middle market industrial investors, those are kind of small towns in rural areas across the country.

35:05We're creating jobs in middle of nowhere, Ohio and Kansas and places where these jobs are badly needed, honestly. And so I always try to raise that because I think it's an unfair reputation or commonly held belief about private equity that is just, in my experience and in my company, is just untrue. Yeah.

35:29Cass: Well, who can do that, right? These large firms that are often the ones who are able to make the New York Times because they're doing these mega deals or these huge carve outs of public companies and yeah sometimes like the only way to create some value is to cut but like I think there are many many I actually should probably look at the statistics of this because I assume that it's a much larger majority long tail maybe not of dollars but of like firms uh who are in the lower middle market and we're in like ideally if we're doing our jobs right and things are going well we're in the growth business exactly exactly hiring.

36:08That's exactly right. Yeah.

36:10Cass: I always, I'm like, always like a little bit ashamed if, depending on the audience, like I'm in private equity, but like, we're, we're like the good guys. Exactly. Like, how much do you, what do you think about us? Yeah. I had one of my husband's cousins, I like sent him something cause he's an account tax accountant. I was like, Oh, one of our companies is like hiring for this kind of role. What do you think about it? Not even to hire him just to be like, is this like the right spec, whatever? He goes, oh, I hate private equity. Exactly. I was like, I work in private equity. It's just like, I do feel like you need to be sort of a source of truth for what actually go, like I feel, not that I'm like a private equity ambassador, but I just feel like I have to debunk this, you know connotation or like you know this theory that like it's just an industry that like cut costs and eliminate jobs because that's it's truly the opposite of what we do um and uh again some firms do that to your point um still but i do feel like it's less and less because i think the market is so efficient that that's not going to create good returns anymore um so i'm right there with We're fighting the good fight.

37:27Cass: We're fighting the good fight. We're digging ourselves out of this reputational hole. Okay, so we are at, we've made it to the closing call. Okay. Deep breath. So what is the best book that you've read so far this year? Well, I have to admit that I'm not great at making time for reading. I don't like to say I don't have time to read because it's all about what you make time for. So I, as a working mom of two young kids, I don't make time for reading as much as I want. But I've started pivoting to audiobooks, which is an easier format for me because I can do it on the train. I don't have to have a book with me.

38:09So I've started to listen to audiobooks more. I do have to stop myself from getting distracted because I'll find myself doing stuff on my phone and I'm like, I can't really listen to one. Rewind, rewind, rewind. Right. I can't comprehend what I'm reading, listening to, if I'm also on Instagram. But one audio book that I downloaded and listened to in completion, which is a big accomplishment for me, was Strangers. So hot right now. Yes. I haven't read it yet or listened to it yet. I'm a huge audible person or like audio audiobook person. So the author reads it, which I think is not the case for every book, at least that I listen to on audiobook, but I think makes a huge impact on how you hear the story because it's it's a memoir and it's her experience and her reading it just like brings it to life so much more.

39:02And she has like it's not all voices are good to listen to. She has a good voice to listen to. And it's also a fascinating story is a fascinating story. You have to listen to it and tell me what you think. Because it has gotten a lot of buzz. And that's how I heard of it, like by listening to a podcast where she was featured. And I was like, all right, I'm hooked. I'll listen to it. And it was a good listen. I have one credit on Audible.

39:28Cass: So I will. All right. I'm in. That's going to be mine for this month. Because everybody's like, oh, it's got everything. It's got the drama. It's got, you know, personal finance crazy stories. Yeah. it's fascinating um and you also just start theorizing in your head like what happened you know um and everyone I'm sure has their own take on it so it's really it's a fascinating story yes awesome I'm in I'm actually I similarly like I've listened to a podcast on it I've watched like content on it I'm like I'm like so deep in the story without having actually listened to it or read it yet. So, all right, I'm in.

40:09Cass: We'll do a book club when we get together so you can get your mug for being on the show. Oh, yay. And then what is your go-to karaoke song? Well, with all the time that you have to go out and do karaoke. I haven't done karaoke in a very long time, but the last time that I did karaoke probably, or one of the last times, was at a little bar called Trader Todd's, which I don't know if it's still there, but it was there. And it was a gem, a gem of a gem of an institution. And they do karaoke, I think, or they did. And we were there after a Cubs game, pre-kids, of course. As one finds themselves. As one does.

40:52And we had a friend in town and he, I got help with my, I don't know if we were married then or engaged or what, but my now husband and sang Firework by Katy Perry and our friend who I love dearly got it on video, which, you know, will now be forever. And he sent it even if the video is deleted off his phone, he sent it to like 25 people who all have it. And so I wouldn't say it's my go to song, but it is a song that will forever remind me of karaoke because it's like seared in my memory.

41:30Cass: Next time you are in a situation where karaoke is an option it will probably be a top pick in your mind because you're like well let's just run it back let's just run it back yeah I've uh I pass Trader Todd's a lot and my my husband and I always talk about like oh that would be you know how like in fantasy football and stuff like there's like this huge trend of like if you lose what you must do yeah he's like oh a good one would be like you have to sit in Trader Todd's for an entire day but you can only order water or like soda or whatever where they won't kick you out. Yeah. I think it would be highly entertaining.

42:09Cass: Listen to everybody for hours on end, especially as the night progresses. And I was like, I don't know if I would consider that a punishment. Like, I think that would be pretty fun. It would be entertaining. It would be entertaining. You'd come across people like me, 20 whatever, seven-year-old me. Yeah. However old I was. I think that would be great. I think I would also be like, can I sing? I'm a horrible karaoke singer, but I do. I love the sport. Equally as horrible. Yeah, very fun. Okay, last question. What did 10-year-old you want to be when you grew up? And how far off was she? Oh, she was so far off.

42:53She didn't have this in your future. She didn't know about private equity. No, and that's what I think is so funny about, like, reflecting on a question like this is that, so 10 year old me wanted to be a marine biologist which I think it's like not uncommon actually for kids right like they're like oh I want to go like swim with dolphins and well dolphins are cool yeah and so and whales yeah I knew nothing about finance I knew nothing about investment banking I knew nothing about private equity and frankly didn't until I was in college like even entering college so first marine biologist and when I realized that might not be like a gainful employment Did you take like a bio class?

43:31Oh, yeah. No, I actually entered undergrad pre-med. So I pivoted from marine biology to pre-med, majoring in biology, and was very convinced that I wanted to be a doctor. And then I was doing some sort of like internship at a hospital where you can like observe surgeries. And I was in the room for like a hip replacement and almost passed out. Like I could on full on like like nearly I like had to take myself out of the room because I was like I was having like an out of body experience. I didn't faint, but I was like probably the closest I've ever been to fainting. And at that moment and after organic chemistry that I did do well in, I said, OK, maybe premed's not the right track for me.

44:19I don't know that I have like the wherewithal. If I can't watch a surgery, I probably can't perform one. Not that. And obviously there's a million types of medicines. You don't have to be able to do surgery. But I was like, maybe this is not the profession for me. So I pivoted to business because I was like, well, what else is there? I don't know. You know, I'll just try this instead. I mean, honestly, just like, you know, throwing darts at a wall. I had no idea. But 10-year-old me was a marine biologist. 16 or 17-year-old me was pre-med and I'm going to be a doctor. And then all of those vanished because I was like, I don't actually, I don't think I can actually do any of these things.

44:55So that's the right move, though, is like, try it a little bit.

44:58Cass: Right. If you didn't go see that hip replacement when you did, if you would have waited, like forget agranic chemistry for a second. Yeah, which is very hard, by the way. Oh, I really hard. Again, I could never like the science class I took in college was like hazardous weather. Yeah. I was like, let's, I, science is not my forte. Um, I love it, but when it gets like super quanty, like I was like, I, it's like, and it does obviously in like the advanced levels. I like, I was interested in it, but I was like, this is not how my mind works. Yeah. Like, uh, can't do it to those people. Yeah. No, they're brilliant.

45:37Cass: Um, but it's a good thing that you didn't like scrub in or like, you know, witness that like senior year, you know, doing that early was probably very helpful. Yeah. No, it was. I'll never forget it. And I was like, all right, my dreams of being a doctor are now gone. Shattered. Yeah. Shattered. I mean, yeah. And then you ended up in a totally different career and you're, you know, if you don't mind me saying you're crushing it. Right. I think of you as one of my like a board of advisor to me, even though So we don't see each other as much as I'd like to. But you are somebody that I aspire to be like.

46:19Cass: Oh, you're the best. Right back at you. Right back at you. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. This was very fun as I expected it to be. So fun. I'm so honored that you wanted me to be on here. So I'm super appreciative. And also, I just got to spend 47 minutes talking to you, which is going to by far be the highlight of my day. So no offense to any other meetings you have today. No, none of them. Yeah, no, but but definitely the highlight of my day. So thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to like have a fun conversation with you. This is this has been so wonderful. Awesome.