Ep. 151: Jim Toth, Riverside Acceleration Capital | Turning Data Into an Operating Advantage

0:00Hey, everybody.

0:01Jim Toth: Before we get started with today's episode, I want to take an opportunity to tell you about my new book, AI Marketing Blueprint. It just hit number one bestseller status across multiple categories on Amazon, and it walks you through a proven framework that we are taking our clients through here at How to SaaS and how to stay relevant and visible in a world with AI platforms. One of the biggest problems that we have seen across clients and companies is that the traditional channels that they relied on, like paid search or SEO, have declined significantly or are getting more expensive and competitive.

0:34Jim Toth: The reason for this is that a lot of buyers are starting to self-educate themselves and research on AI platforms. So a lot of that volume that was previously going to those channels is now moving to these new AI platforms. So to stay relevant, the book walks you through seven new rules that companies in all kinds of verticals and industries need to consider so that they can continue growing their pipeline and revenue and ultimately their enterprise value. So if this applies to your business or one of the companies that you've invested in, I definitely recommend that you pick up a copy. It's available on Amazon, on Apple Books, on Barnes and Noble, and even share it with your teams.

1:10Jim Toth: Grab a bunch of copies so that you can kind of consume the content together and start to apply it to your business. And with that said, let's move on to the episode. Welcome to the Private Equity Value Creation Podcast, where we interview leading investors, operators, bankers, and advisors to help you answer one question. How do we increase the enterprise value of our companies? My name is Shiv Narayanan, and each episode, I will dive deep with a guest to help you become a better value creator and capital allocator. So with that said, let's jump right in and let's get started with today's episode.

1:46Jim Toth: My guest today is Jim Toth, and he is the managing partner at Riverside Acceleration Capital. And what I really liked about this episode is, one, Jim is a true expert. And then, two, how Riverside approaches growing their companies with an extensive team and how involved they get with their portfolio companies is something that I would say is very unique in the private equity space. And they bring a ton of expertise. They have a real perspective in terms of how to grow companies and their cadence around working with their portfolio companies is something that I think more PE firms should actually do because the operational side of growing companies is becoming more important, especially in today's market.

2:22Jim Toth: And Riverside seems to have figured out a great approach to do that. So Jim walks us through that, plus how they invest in companies or their overall investment philosophy and also how they're adapting that in a world with AI. And so there's a ton of great insights and takeaways in the episode, and I'm sure you'll take away from it as much as I did. So with that said, I'll leave you to it. Enjoy the episode.

2:48Jim Toth: All right, Jim, welcome to the show. How's it going? It's great. I'm going great. Thank you for having me. Yeah, excited to have you on. So why don't we start with your background in Riverside and then let's take it from there. Absolutely. So I'm the founder, managing partner of Riverside Acceleration Capital. So we call it RAC for short. And I started the firm 10 years ago. I've really spent my career investing in high growth software companies. That's what I love doing. I was a man for 20 years. and when I started the firm 10 years ago, I kind of had a chance to start with a clean sheet of paper and just start the firm exactly how I wanted.

3:35And there were two things that were really important to me. One was I think that scale really matters. So I wanted to have scale in terms of ability to do value creation I think there's just a lot that you can do when you have resources. It's hard to do when you're small. And so we started RAC within Riverside. That's unusual. Riverside is a multi-billion dollar private equity firm. And so we're kind of the arm of Riverside that invests in these high growth tech companies. And then the second thing that was important to me was that we had a lot of flexibility in how we invest. because I think that the way that founders manage their capital raising, manage their capital structure, how they strategize around that makes a big difference to how much value they have ultimately.

4:33And so we have a lot of flexibility in how we invest. So we can invest everything from small, targeted, non-dilutive growth loans all the way up to proper Series A, Series B, true growth routes. So that's kind of a long answer, but think of us as like big company resources, but very targeted to companies that are at their kind of high growth scale up stage.

4:57Jim Toth: How does the relationship work between the Riverside Acceleration Capital side and the standard Riverside firm? How does that work? Well, the big thing for us is that we are able to plug into their value creation resources that they've built. And they've been around for 35 years. They've owned like a thousand companies. Uh, they have a team. It's like more than 50 people who are, uh, you know, not like me, not like investors, but people have actually run companies and, um, been CEOs. And so when we invest in one of our companies, uh, like it feels exactly like you have a multi-billion dollar private equity firm investing in your business.

5:38Um, so that's, that's the key thing. And then, and, and we can leverage all that, right? So we leverage all of that brand. They've got offices all over the world. So we're executing our strategy and finding the companies that we want to invest in. But then we're leveraging all that value creation heft, which is like way more than we would have if we were our standalone fund.

6:01Jim Toth: And so you're basically bringing in your own deal flow. It's not just like co-investing or focusing on the same deals, really. That's exactly right. It's the companies that are exactly the ones that we want to invest in that are, you know, like there are very specific things that we look for. But then we're taking all that value. We're like basically plugging into that value creation infrastructure that already exists for Riverside as a much bigger firm. And so what is it like an ideal investment look like? What type of profile company are you looking for? What characteristics do you try to vet for?

6:33Well, so what I really enjoy and where we focus are companies at that, you know, where it's past the startup stage. So the kind of product startup risk is behind these companies. And they have a product that people love and they're growing well. And we are helping them get from, you know, like that to 20 million plus of revenue. is like where we really focus. So kind of like our range, we're typically starting to invest in companies when they're somewhere in the two and a half to 15 million of revenue range typically. And then we're applying all the resources that we have available to us and trying to help companies get past 20 million of revenue and beyond.

7:26But that kind of 20 million mark being a typically a very important inflection point for companies where they have then a lot of options at that point for what they want to do.

7:41Jim Toth: And are you guys getting involved operationally inside these companies or are you more hands off in your investment model? We're very involved. And that, again, is where kind of the Riverside value creation, like being able to plug into that, that's where that becomes so important. Uh, so we like, you know, when we invest in a company, even before we close the investment, we're bringing somebody from that value creation team, um, in, into the, um, like they get involved in the process. We're kind of building the business case with the company, uh, even before the investment. And then once we make the investment, we take companies through like quite an extensive kind of assessment process that it's very iterative to work with them on what are their priorities, what's important for them, what's really going to what are the levers that are going to drive growth.

8:37And then whatever we decide on is those priorities they're executing together with the value creation team and meeting with, you know, that they're very actively involved. So, you know, like weekly, biweekly type basis, executing like we call them sprints. And then we on the investing team are also involved with companies either as board members or board observers. So it's kind of both sides of it.

9:07Jim Toth: I guess that takes a big investment on your side as a firm, right? Because you're bringing these resources to the table. So how do you staff up for that? Or like, how have you managed that as a firm versus, let's say, hiring internally inside these companies or using outside firms and resources? Well, so it is a big investment. Um, but you know, for one thing, we're, so we're very picky about, like, as you can imagine, about what companies we work with. Um, so we're starting with like, you know, probably this year, we're going to talk to something like 700 companies. Uh, so it's really, really high volume, uh, but we're only investing in a tiny fraction of those.

9:50So we'll, we'll maybe make 12 or 15 investments in a year. Um, so it's, it's very, very selective. and then that's where uh like having access to such a big team that is you know kind of broader riverside that we're able to leverage that uh and that's you know the riverside value creation team is more than more than 50 people you know they're like there are a few that we work with a lot who are more like software focused but it's that kind of combination of like being being very uh like only investing in a small fraction of companies that we talk to and then also drawing up the big

10:29Jim Toth: resource that we have here and can you explain how that model works like is riverside paying for that or are you passing the cost on a portfolio companies like how does the model actually work most of what we do is part of what comes with working with us um and so like that's it that That to me is like as an investor in our companies, you know, we're trying to constantly prove our value. Like we want our companies to love us. We want to be able to keep investing behind them. In order to do that, I think we have to, I think they should expect a lot from us. And so most of what we do is part of what comes with working with us.

11:15Um, you know, there are other aspects of it that, you know, like still benefits that we get from scale, um, where, so like, for example, Riverside has a, a development team offshore that our companies can use and they can use that at cost. like that's a huge that's a huge advantage um like we have a recruiter on on our like actually who works with us that that goes and like finds uh especially like go-to-market roles for our companies and that's kind of like below market rates they can access that you know we have things that are negotiated at a firm level like uh um you know like we did discount on on aws like you know those are small examples but it all adds up to actually like a big impact for our companies and those are the kinds of things that we can only do because we're so big.

12:07Jim Toth: Yeah, I think that's definitely one of the big advantages of having a value creation team like that. Is there like a uniform approach that you follow? Because I get the idea that you're vetting these companies up front. Is that the X factor in determining like, hey, we have this team, this is what we specialize in, so we're going to find specific types of companies that this team can help? or after the fact, are you kind of like building a value creation plan that's custom to that business? Um, and then trying to figure out which resources can map to that particular business. It's two separate processes.

12:42If, if you want to think about it that way. Um, so we have, um, and, and like, because we look at so much volume, uh, you know, I mentioned that we're going to talk to, you know, whatever it is, 700 companies or so this year, we're going to invest in 15 of them. Um, there's a lot of data science that goes into that decision. Um, so, um, you know, cause we've been looking at, like, we have a lot of data because we look at so much volume. Um, we have a lot of, uh, also outcomes data for, because we make a lot, you know, it's, it's, it's, uh, we're choosy, but it's relatively high volume. So we, we have a lot of outcomes.

13:22We see a lot of companies multiple times, we're able to use kind of machine learning, pattern matching against that to really pick out which are the companies that we think are ready to hit that inflection point and really scale. And, you know, like the more companies we look at, the better those predictions become because we get more data that feeds the model. um so that's how we get to who enters the portfolio and then like shortly before we actually make an investment that's when we start the second piece of the process of like from a value creation standpoint what's going to be the best um use of capital here for the company um and so i'll give you maybe just use like a specific example that like the most recent company that we just invested in.

14:15I was just looking at this. And we go through an assessment that takes a long... It takes maybe half a day. It involves most of the executive team. And we go through sales, marketing, customer success. Those are the big three. And it's quite an exhaustive list of... Think of best practices, things that... And not every company does everything, nor should they. But you go through that all. And then we benchmark that against other companies that are of similar stage that have done the same assessment. And we can tell a company... So in this example, for the marketing one, this particular company is really good, like unusually strong on digital strategy.

15:07So we're not going to touch that. They are kind of below benchmark on their content strategy. But in this particular case, it's like not a market where content is particularly important. So we're not going to think about that. But they're also kind of below the benchmark on their channel strategy. And so, okay, but that's actually important in low-hanging fruit. So let's put that to the top of the list. And then we go through a version of that for sales and marketing and customer success. And then the output is like, here are these things where there's like maybe low hanging fruit opportunity.

15:39And then here are the things that are actually important versus not. And then that's how we prioritize the value creation program. Right.

15:46Jim Toth: Yeah, that's a really good approach. And I think it just helps you stack rank what to focus on. I feel like a lot more companies should be doing that. I think one of the things as you're talking and you're kind of walking through this, it's interesting to see your model because you guys are investing a lot into your portfolio companies beyond a regular private equity firm. Can you talk about that just because that's a strategic decision as a firm? It is. And and especially where we invest a lot of our energy and a lot of our resources is on kind of like go to market scalability and repeatability.

16:24like like our companies like the reason i love this stage is that the like i think that once that you know once the startup stage is behind you um and you've proven that there's a product that the market wants and almost all of our companies are founder-led software companies it's a very exciting time because if you get the if you then get the marketing the sales and marketing motion right you can really grow quickly. It's just about adding fuel to what works. And that sounds easy, but it's actually very hard to do. And especially our companies, these are founder-led companies. Most of them haven't scaled a business from 5 million to 30 million or 50 million, but Riverside's done that a lot of times.

17:13And so that's what they're looking to us to do is to help them in whatever way that we can find that kind of repeatability so that it becomes something that's like systematic and the growth also becomes inevitable.

17:28Jim Toth: Yeah. Yeah. I think that definitely resonates because I feel like the more you invest, it's kind of like sometimes I see PE firms will buy a business and they don't provide enough operational help, but at the same time, they need to generate alpha for their fund. And those two things go very hand in hand, and yet they're hesitant to invest more resources on their own team or what value they're bringing to their companies. And I feel like a lot of value is left on the table because of that. But I also understand some firms are smaller and they may not have the resources and they're making these kinds of trade-offs, but it's definitely like a lever that the PE firm itself could pull.

18:07Jim Toth: I think that's exactly right. And I think that, like the other thing I love about the way that Riverside and the way that we're kind of plugging into the value creation mindset here, like, is that idea of being so kind of targeted with how you invest? Like, because I think there's a big challenge, you know, you like, Like as a founder, there's so many different areas that you can invest. And it's like, I think it can be very, I think it'd be quite overwhelming. And so I love the methodical way that we're kind of going through and figuring out where, like, where's the opportunity, what's important.

18:48And let's like only focus on the intersection of those two things. Like we literally get to the level of like, all right, even before we close the investment, we say to a company, all right, here's what you're spending today on sales and marketing. And here are your metrics. Here's your growth rate and your retention and all the 15 KPIs that you track. We're going to increase that sales and marketing spending by X million dollars. Here's exactly how we recommend we're going to spend that. And this is what we think the impact is going to be on exactly those metrics. Like we really try to make like a very specific business case.

19:27And the only reason that we can do that, it like it does come back to just like scale and the fact that we've done this so many times.

19:37Jim Toth: How do the founders or the management teams take that? Because a lot of executive teams want to run the business their own way. And so in this case, they're partnering with someone who's very actively involved. So is that part of your vetting process to make sure that they're okay with that? I'm just curious how you manage through that. That's why I think it's important to talk about these things ahead of time. So the business case I just described to you of this is what you look like today. This is kind of where we're going to invest over the next three years and what we think that outcome is going to be.

20:13Just like make sure everybody's agreed on that. And if there are and, you know, I guess it is part of our vetting process in a way, because if if companies don't like if they're not interested in making those kinds of investments and talking about it in such a specific way, then they're probably not going to want like we're probably just not the right partner for them. Mm hmm. And by the way, you know, the other thing I'll say that that's so unusual is that I mentioned at the start, this idea of like how flexible we are with the types of capital that we can invest, whether it's a growth loan or growth equity round.

20:50You know, we're doing this even sometimes as low as like a like a million dollar growth loan. Like we'll start with that. And, you know, it might be very targeted investment. And it's like sometimes that's what companies need. And I love that we can be like tailored to that degree. Like if you want to do something small and hit some specific milestones, we can help you with that. And then when you do hit those milestones and you decide maybe you want to do a bigger growth equity round, then we can be with you for that whole journey. I don't think there's anybody else that can say that.

21:27Jim Toth: And so then in those situations, how do you look at returning the fund? Because you're getting so operationally involved and you might stick around with these businesses for an extended period of time. So how do you look at more just managing the fund and making sure you're doing right by LPs? it's a huge advantage for us uh like i think it's it's it's a it's a um like i think a lot about network effects and like i started um like again like very foundational to me is i wanted to make sure that we were that we were big uh because i think that having with scale you get more volume you get more intelligence, you get more nodes in the network.

22:09Um, you know, like our companies, we had them all together. We had our CEOs together in, in New York, uh, a couple of months ago. And the big topic right now is, um, like, uh, AI search and AI discoverability. And, you know, we, we've got a, we've got a big portfolio. We have, uh, I think like some more than 50 active companies right now. We can put them together and they can talk about this stuff. I think it becomes sort of a self-reinforcing cycle that helps them kind of innovate and learn from each other.

22:45Jim Toth: We'll get back to the show in just a moment. But before we do, one of the most common and important value creation levers that we hear about on the show from private equity investors and our own PE partners is go to market. Yet when these same PE partners bring us into to their portfolio companies or new target investments that they're exploring, we find that the marketing function is quite immature, underutilized and under optimized. And so that's a huge opportunity that we see inside these companies. And if you have a portfolio company that you feel like it's scaled a lot faster to drive more pipeline and revenue, or you're looking at a new investment where you feel like that could be core to your investment thesis, well, we'd love to explore that with you and figure out how we can partner with you to drive more enterprise value creation on the marketing side, similar to the way that we've done with major PE firms like TA, Updata, HG, SDG, and many more.

23:38Jim Toth: At this point, we've done hundreds of engagements across hundreds of industries and verticals, and we have a ton of benchmarks and frameworks that we bring to these engagements to help you drive as much enterprise value as quickly as possible. So if that sounds like something that you might be interested in, you can just email me directly at shiv at howtosass.com or go to our website and schedule a demo and we'd love to speak with you about it further and now with that said let's get back to the show one of the things that i've heard about riverside and i think it's one of your distinguishing factors is how you guys are leveraging data maybe you want to talk a little bit about that well the data science piece is is is like i can't overstate how important that is.

24:18Um, and because we look at so many companies, um, and every company that we evaluate, um, we we're seeing, you know, like in, in, in extreme granular detail, the, the, the key metrics of these, these companies. So the, the financials, the, the scaling metrics, the, the retention metrics, the rule of 40 metrics, uh, you know, it's like, whatever, like 100 plus data points on every single company. And we've been doing that for years. And these are all because we're so focused on these software technology businesses that are in that like two and a half to 20 million revenue range at investment. Like that's, it's really hard to get that kind of data on private companies.

25:06Most of what you can get, usually it's like surveys and you don't know if it's right or it's like self-reported stuff. Like this is, this is like verified data. Yes. Um, and that helps us to, well, it helps us make better decisions because we can make very good predictions, um, about like given a set of metrics today, what are the chances this company is going to scale over the next, you know, X number of years without burning too much capital. So it helps us with our decision-making, but then it's also like really helpful for our, for our companies. I mean, if you think about it, like we, we know these, these things that you can't, uh, you know, like we know that, uh, companies that are growing over 35 % right now are spending eight percentage points more on product than companies that are growing less than 35%.

25:58I mean, I'm just like pulling out a random example, but it's like to that level of granularity, like that's super, super useful for our portfolio companies.

26:05Jim Toth: Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. Even in our business, like when we meet so many companies every week, every week I'm talking to like 15 to 20 CEOs or PE investors and you see their data firsthand and their current. And there's pattern recognition, right, in terms of how much their marketing spend should be or how much pipeline should they be generating or which channel should they be spending money on or what's a good amount of return on ad spend that they should be seeing in a market like this. It's like there's all these benchmarks. And I feel like a lot of those metrics are invisible to people that are not in that particular space or don't have exposure to metrics like that.

26:43Jim Toth: And private equity firms in particular, you guys meet so many companies. And it would be a shame to not leverage that data to operationally. Yeah, I totally agree. I think there's so much value in it. And we're seeing it and it's healthy. So we actually make it like I have a strong belief that that this data is very hard to find. It's very useful for founders. We actually make it. It's most of it, not all of it, but a lot of it we make publicly available. You can you can like every month we kind of obviously we blinded everything. But these are like aggregated metrics that I hope are useful for people.

27:20It's like definitely useful for our portfolio.

27:23Jim Toth: Yeah. Yeah. How has that helped you on the EI side with your companies? Talk about how you're leveraging it for how you're leveraging AI as a as a fund and a P firm and then how you're looking at it for your portfolio companies. Well, the like the big thing for us is on the you know, it's AI, but it's really kind of in the sense of like advanced statistics and machine learning. Um, so because to take the, like these predictions that, that, that, that we're able to make to help us in our decision-making, you know, it's, it's, uh, you're running through like extremely complex combinations of, of hundreds of data points.

28:08Uh, and, and we're able to make predictions that are, I mean, it would like, I can't share exactly cause it's proprietary, but it would like blow your mind how accurate we can get when we back test this stuff. uh so that's it so it saves us a tremendous amount of time because it lets us only focus on the you know we're trying to find the very very best companies like i talk about like the top decile of companies like that's really what we're targeting which is easier said than done um but we actually have the data so that we can kind of objectively when when we have a company like we can kind of objectively make a determination of which ones really are like best in class to that degree.

28:48So it's a huge time saver for us. And then in terms of our portfolio, so, you know, I, I, like, I just think this is such a cool time to be investing in technology. You know, like I said, I've been doing this for 20 years. I mean, this is like, without a doubt, this is the most interesting time to be doing this because I just think that there's, there's this idea that has taken hold in the world. You know, it's almost like a cultural phenomenon that companies want to, they want to grow, but they don't want to add a lot of people. And, you know, you, you look at how people are doing work today and the amount of functions that, that you can automate now that you couldn't automate even five years ago.

29:35And just like the throughput per person is going up in like really dramatic ways that we haven't seen in probably decades. And the only way to make that all work is with technology. And so that to me is what's so interesting about it is that all the, like the way that people work, I think is changing in quite dramatic fashion. And our companies, these sort of like post startup, high growth enterprise technology companies, Like that's like exactly where all the changes are happening.

30:11Jim Toth: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent agree. As a investor on the software side, how are you managing the risks associated with AI and also just the underlying product threat, if you will? Like, or this is something that a lot of companies are trying to scramble to add AI components to their to their product offering or capabilities. And at the same time, like there's this displacement risk as well. So I'm just curious, like, how are you managing that? You got to think about it in. So I think about it this way. Like there are kind of three like broad categories in my mind. There are companies that are.

30:53So like there is no doubt that that the way people work is is changing. Like that is like, you know, there are trillions of dollars being spent on AI right now. And it's just like right in the front of everybody's mind. I mean, so like the changes are absolutely, absolutely coming. And so we, you know, I think about like there are companies that are enabling these changes. So think about things like cloud infrastructure or data, data hygiene, data management. that's a big focus in our portfolio. So just kind of like what's the enablers of the AI transition. And then category two are kind of outcomes of the AI transition.

31:45So the things that almost like because this is happening, it's almost inevitable. So like the big one there is like cybersecurity. So with the advent of AI, cybersecurity has become a much more intense problem. And so that's category number two. And if you take our portfolio and you sort them by growth, some of the ones that are growing the very fastest are in those first two categories, like data management, cloud infrastructure, and cybersecurity, fraud prevention. And then there's a third category of, which I think is kind of where your question is, which are complex enterprise applications, you know, certain like vertical software solutions, kind of very specific complex enterprise applications, enterprise automations, things of that nature.

32:46and when thinking about those companies you just have to make sure that you're not competing directly against the uh large language models like obviously you don't want to be competing against them but a lot of these companies are really you know kind of supercharged by ai like this like a lot of them are growing super fast i'm trying to think what's a good example So one of our companies is in the healthcare area, and they were selling a tool that was used in call centers in healthcare. And now they've been able, because they have all those kind of very complex workflows encoded already in their software, they're able to put an agent on top of it, and they can automate the whole process now.

33:36And so they're literally charging four times what they were because instead of selling a tool, now they're really selling a full automation. And things like that are happening everywhere. Not every company is a winner in all this, but if you pick the right companies and if you're super selective, the tailwinds right now are probably more dramatic, again, than anything that I've seen in 20 years of doing this.

34:03Jim Toth: Has it changed how you're vetting companies when you're deciding to invest? Because there's this existential risk involved with a lot of these companies. So I'm curious, how has it changed your investment approach? To me, it gets down to innovation. And if I kind of step back in technology, if you get these investments right, You know, the rewards are really substantial in tech. And so there's competition is a natural state of the world. Like that's kind of what that's what makes it interesting. And that's like, that's why we're here. um you know like one of our companies was a they were excited we were they were in a board meeting they were saying they'd gotten number five on on g2 for for their category uh and i was like oh i'm like curious how many are in that category and it was like almost 5 000 companies like in in one tiny little category like there's always been a ton of competition um so that that hasn't changed But I do think that innovation has become a lot more pressing.

35:25And so the companies that are growing fastest, they're spending a lot more on products. They're a lot more product-focused. And then the other point is that what we're seeing in our data is that there's an increasing dispersion between, call it the median company, and the very best companies. Um, so like, like for example, just one data point, um, companies that are, uh, rule of 40, if you look at their growth rates and you compare it to the non rule of 40 group are growing three times faster. I mean, there's a huge difference and that's a gap that's increased in since chat GPT came out. So I think there is this dynamic of like, um, the best companies are getting better.

36:12and probably a lot of that is because of AI because like the best companies are taking AI and they're automating their internal processes and whatever is working, is working like more at the speed of AI and then companies where there's friction, like probably the AI is like amplifying that. I mean, I don't know that to be the case. That's just my hypothesis.

36:31Jim Toth: Yeah, there's definitely truth to that because the best companies would be better at process too and have better people and better product market fit, a bunch of other things working in their favor as well. So yeah, you could basically like automate what's working really well. But then when companies have like whatever friction or dysfunction, they're automating that too. So I think that's going to continue. There's some. Yeah, exactly. And then also, I think AI has also created a situation where there's a lot more noise and less quality work out there as well. So there's an opportunity to stand out.

37:03Jim Toth: Jim, we're coming up on time just in the interest of that. Just if people want to learn more about Riverside or work with you or get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that? Riverside.ac. Come to our website. It's very easy to find us. We love talking to software companies that are$2.5 to$20 million of revenue. And, yeah, we'd love to hear from you. Awesome. Yeah, we'll be sure to include that and the links in the show notes. And with that said, Jim, thanks for coming on and sharing your wisdom. I thought it was a very good deep dive into how you guys approach growth and work with your companies.

37:36Jim Toth: And I think a lot of firms that don't have as much of a robust team and involvement with their portfolio companies may kind of rethink their approach and potentially do the same. So I appreciate you doing this. I hope so. Thank you. It was a lot of fun. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Before you take off, just a few requests from our side. Number one, if you haven't done so already, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or Spotify or YouTube or wherever you go to listen to your podcasts. Number two, if you are in the market for due diligence services, strategy consulting or fractional CMO services, please get in touch with us at www.howtosass.com.

38:16Jim Toth: And third, please buy a copy of my new book, Exit Ready Marketing. It covers a ton of concepts that we take our customers through, private equity investors, B2B companies, CEOs, operating partners, and marketers. And there's a ton of great value in there that expands on my previous book, Post Acquisition Marketing, as well. So with that said, I hope you enjoyed today's content, and we'll see you on the next episode.