Cancelled: The Dark Side of Wellness Culture with Lee Tilghman (Lee From America) and Leigh Stein

21:48Yeah, Leandra. Jen Gotch from Bando. It was like, oh my God.

21:53Danielle:This is what Leigh's piece talks about when I found Leigh from the end of Girlboss. What I would add to this conversation is that from 2014 to 2017, I was leading a feminist nonprofit organization with a Facebook group of 40 ,000 women. Oh, God. And we had a conference. We did everything right. We had a scholarship program. We had affordable tickets. Everything that you were accused of, we did correctly. And our conference was destroyed by online infighting between women. So we built it, and they tore it down. So you could have done everything correctly, and it wouldn't have mattered. And so that was my lesson.

22:26It's not about the capitalism. It's not that you were charging too much money. There's no way to satisfy all the critics. Our conference was ultimately torn apart over a conflict over whether or not we should allow babies. That's what destroyed us. Goes to show that it's not about the babies or the price. It's just about like maybe the community. It's the community and it's like there's this genuine like boiling anger. Like I think women have a lot of anger and they have villains, they have targets, but those targets are like so far away that it's like who's close by. And they end up turning on each other.

22:57Did you ever read that Joe Freeman essay from like 1976 on trashing that was in Ms. Magazine? No. I'm going to send it to you. It's like a classic second wave feminism essay about women just like icing this one woman out. She doesn't even know what she's done wrong. It's like a pre-cancellation. Yeah. How they all turned on her and she has no idea what she did, but they isolated her from the group. Once someone's already made up their like mind about you, you can't argue with that. And it's so funny like because watching so many different women get canceled since my cancellation, it's wild because nobody can actually all agree on why they hate the woman they just hate the woman and like they think that they are all behind the same cause but instead of outpouring of support it's outpouring yeah it's like they've been keeping it in whether it's jealousy or feeling unfulfilled in their life or feeling a little uncomfortable by maybe this woman has something that they don't I don't always just want to say it's jealousy but just like when I'm not doing something in my flow and this might sound so woo or like being creative I can start to feel a little bit like why is that like that inner critic of other women comes out and so as long as I'm moving forward it's very quelled and so I feel like if I'm focusing on myself and my craft and my creativity then I'm not feeling that hate to me it just shows that maybe those men are not focused on that and it's like so easy to hate then you tell yourself I'm standing up for what's right yeah I'm letting Lee know that this is a structural injustice that she is committing.

24:27And like, oh my God, I can go on this for hours, but like, it's like moral purity. And like, Lee has power. I want power. Me and all these girls are going to hate on her. And as a group, we are going to be more powerful than her. The criticism was coming from so many different areas. And they were all eventually were like, oh my God, Lee has other haters too. Before then, I didn't have them. And they all kind of came out. They found each other. They found each other. Yeah, and they were more powerful together. Yeah. Yeah. So they found a community through hating the same thing. It's like I see this on BookTok with like Colleen Hoover.

24:57Like there's the Colleen Hoover fans and then there's the anti-Colleen Hoover fans that like have their own strong anti-fandom.

25:04Danielle:I'm trying to think as I'm listening to you guys. I'm like what's the male equivalent? Like on ESPN I see them all talking about who's better, LeBron or Michael Jordan and it's not the same. I think this is how women exert power. Like I think this is what we learned as girls and teenagers. Like if you want to hurt someone's feelings, you exclude them. Like you don't punch them in the face. It's giving – I haven't matured since high school. But I just think it's the way we learned to engage in conflict. Instead of punching someone in the nose, we don't invite you to the sleepover. We invite everyone else.

25:30Danielle:Has this changed either of you, like, being critical or writing satire about this community and Lee having seen it from both sides? Has it changed your view on feminism or women? Yes. Interesting. Please say more. I don't call myself a feminist anymore. I do not. No. If that's what feminism is, I want nothing about it. I want absolutely nothing about it. Like I used to be like, women, all women support women. I had such a naive view of women. Also what's so funny is I think that because I was healing myself and sharing about my healing journey, I attracted a lot of unhealed women. Well I think Allie Kreedsman, she said that.

26:09She's also a writer. I know Allie too. Yeah. She was like, you know what's so interesting about your community specifically is that because you were talking about body image and healing, you attracted a lot of women and who were struggling with that. And they looked at you as a kind of a projection of their own desires and how they wanted to be and how they wanted to look or how a healed woman should look. And I attracted a lot of very unhealthy people. And that's just what happens when, I guess, you were talking about the things that I was talking about. But if that's what a feminist online community is or does, then I'm not a feminist.

26:41My dream of womanhood and the female community and women supporting women is and will forever be broken. Like once you've been torn down by other women to the degree that I was, you will start to be like, wow, it's really women who actually are tearing each other down. It's not men. Like there was not a single man in my comments caring about this. If anything, like all the men in my life have been like, they're busy doing what? Like they just don't understand. They don't have time for that. Well, also we talk about Audrey Gelman so much. And how much do we talk about Adam Neumann? Like are people making TikTok videos about Adam Neumann?

27:13No. They make videos about Audrey Gelman's new hotel. Like, are they supposed to go away and never come back? Visibility, women being visible is a threat. We do. Like, that's exactly, I think, what people want is for the canceled woman to disappear and to never be visible. Like, you got your chance.

27:29Danielle:I'm having this interesting reaction. I should just be an interviewer, but I'm having this interesting reaction because my experience of feminist communities has been largely positive. and it's not to deny your experience, but I'm like, how could my experience of women be so different from your experience of women? And I see like, it's this visceral pain. I can tell you've talked about it differently than you talked about anything else here. I think you're kind of in the same camp. Unfortunately, I'm not going to offer a different opinion. No, you don't have to. That's a betrayal of the lie we were sold of girlhood and friendship.

28:08And growing up, I was always told by the older women in my life it's the girls that are always going to hold your back and have your back and your best friend. And listen my best girlfriends are like my sisters but it's like the girls that I didn't realize I had to be more cautious of which is these girls who think that they know me online and support me and watch me and praying for my downfall.

28:29Danielle:So you didn't feel betrayed by your real life IRL friends? No and now I've learned that those are the only people that I need to be paying attention to and giving love and care to. But back then, I put a lot of care and weight to what the opinion of random people online thought of me. What were your largest critics saying? That you are harming others with your content because of your cost prohibitive, so you're clearly only for white people, and that you're culturally appropriated. Which is racist. I mean, that assumes only white people have money, which I think is racist. Oh, I mean, it's so many things.

29:03cultural appropriation because you're doing matcha and Ayurveda. And I was working actually with another Ayurvedic influencer who was of Indian descent. Like she was like, can you talk about my stuff? And I was like, sure, I'll promote you. And she wanted to be in my workshop. And I was accused of stealing Ayurveda ideas, which is crazy. Like no context at all. Before I left, that's really what they were accusing me of and just being like privileged white girl from Connecticut. Yes, of course I'm white and I'm from Connecticut. Are you insulting me from that? Like I'm proud to be from Connecticut and yes, I'm white.

29:35That's not a secret. I don't have shame. Another part of the book I really like is there's all these moments where you're learning the changes in Instagram. So it's like, now we're going to do stories instead of grid quotes. I'll adapt to that. Now we're going to do this. Now we're going to do that. And then there's one moment where you're like, are we all pivoting to social justice content and do I need to pivot too? But that's really real because there was this kind of peer pressure and it's just a hilarious moment where you're on a plane doing a face mask and you realize it's MLK day and so you decide to post the FaceMax selfie with a Martin Luther King Jr.

30:04quote. And that is peak. I mean, it's catnip for me. Exactly. But what's so funny too is how I got all these messages being like, thank you for posting a fist with your smoothie. Okay. But the funniest thing though, still, like we are all so indoctrinated. Like if a brand does an MLK Day sale to like sell mattresses, we're like, they're a good one. They're selling mattresses and they've acknowledged MLK Day. It's like, you guys, they don't care. They want your money. Right. They don't care. They're doing it so that you come to them because you think they're good. Do you feel like the vibe has shifted, though, with this?

30:36In terms of the intersection of social justice, activism, and just content online. And entertaining wellness, other content that's not activist content.

30:47Danielle:Like, I feel like it's less... It's such a deep question, Lee. Too deep? No. Ask it. But it's not one-pronged. Like, I don't see the same culture online now where it's, like, Indigenous People's Day. and I don't see people in the comments going, do you know what day it is today? You're posting this. I don't see that anymore. Yeah. Well, because I think people realize that it's been taken by consumerism. Is that it, though? It's like cynicism about consumerism? Or is the public fatigued of every single thing we look at online has to also be political in some way? Like, maybe we want to follow politics.

31:19Maybe we want to read The New York Times, be well-informed citizens. And then maybe we want to, like, get a recipe for something and not have the recipe be Democrat or Republican. Do you know what I mean? I think it just went a little too far. I really do. I agree.

31:33Danielle:Well, I think you're touching on something that was a big question mark during the time of your cancellation, which was what is the responsibility of influencers to speak on social justice and or political issues? Because we were requiring influencers to talk about all these things. Some of them are 21 years old. I don't know what a lot of them know about. That was a big flashpoint. Civil liberties and things. Yeah. And my belief, and this is just my belief, is that it's okay if they don't. There was this pressure, at least for me. I remember like feeling that pressure to post on MLK Day because I was watching other influencers just post their smoothie.

32:13People would be like, silent on MLK Day, unfollow. And I was like, I don't want to be unfollowed. I want to be good. So I'm going to post about MLK. But I do believe in my heart of hearts that it's okay to have just a smoothie page.

32:27Danielle:Here is the flip side of that, though. And I don't know how to make sense of it. But I think what the flip side is that a lot of people's lived experiences don't allow them to be apolitical. And that's the feeling. And so I don't know the answer. Yeah, but then they can go follow a political person. Like, there's totally free will. Like, there's thousands of smoothie people. Follow one that talks about politics and smoothies. Right. April in Florida doesn't have to. She can just post her smoothies. Yeah, it's the intersection that I feel like we've disentangled. Yeah, it's really weird. And also like one thing that I felt is like I talk about in my book by my feelings around politics.

33:04I wasn't like a political child, rarely is one. And all of a sudden now I've got hundreds of thousands of followers and there's a shooting and people are DMing me, you know, feverishly saying, what is your stance on gun control laws in the state of Las Vegas? And I haven't met in three hours, but I'm spending hours researching gun control, the It's true gun control laws in Las Vegas. And I'm thinking my passion is not guns. And that is many people's passions. The Las Vegas shooting was very sad. But it just goes to show like I didn't even know about it. I posted like my oatmeal. And people were like so mad that I didn't post about gun control laws and oatmeal.

33:39I think to try to speak from the fan's point of view, it's like they see you as a public figure with a huge platform. And they're like she has a huge audience. She could make a difference. She could say something about gun control. So they want that from you. And as soon as you do that, they say, well, aren't you going to speak up about abortion? Well, aren't you going to tell us who you voted for? Yeah, exactly. Like, it's never enough. It's going to have to be every issue. People said that to Taylor Swift. Like, she backed Kamala, and Kamala didn't win. So if she's the most influence in the world, and she backed Kamala, and Trump won.

34:10Like, listen, me talking about gun control, I'm sorry, but it's not going to help anything. And, like, the mattress store down the street doing an MLK, like, is it really helping MLK day? I don't know. It sounds like they're just trying to sell a couple more mattresses. There's this like performative activism that I just find really disingenuous.

34:29Danielle:I think some of your critics and things that I've read, it's like a tension between your public image and your private truth in some ways. In your book, you talk about like manufacturing this persona, Lee from America. And even though it is parts of you, this curated version of Lee. And then there's Lee Tillman, the person who goes home at night and makes her bed in the morning and calls her mom. And how do you look back on the dissonance between those two people? Well, that private self is only for the people in my life. Like the public doesn't get that. And that's a very safe and normal and healthy thing to do.

35:09They were never going to get the whole Lee. They can't handle the whole Lee. Like I tried to come back and pivot to this goofy selfie girl with a bowl cut. But people were like, we don't want that. So I think actually the audience has this projection of who I am. It's like the same old story with women. It's like, she's too this, she's not enough this. You know, there's always critique there. So I just think I represented and still do like represent a projection of like how I want her to be showing up. And even if I showed up exactly how they think they want me to show up, there would still be critique.

35:41And that's what I am here to talk about. This is what the book is about. It's funny because we're never truly able to fully understand someone, even when we read their memoir, even if we see their social media, all their reels, and even get to talk to them for two hours. We don't know the whole person. Getting to know someone is a very intimate experience that happens over months, years, a lifetime. And that's a privilege to be able to get to know someone. And I think that people need to realize that you're never going to know who your favorite celebrities truly are deep down. You're never going to know them.

36:12you're gonna see one side of them, whether that they're manufacturing, I don't know, or maybe just that like feedback cycle between their audience and them and they're sharing a little bit and hearing kind of how it goes and then they'll pivot or whatever. But you're never gonna get to know the whole person cause that's for their private life. They deserve to have that.

36:28Danielle:Do you identify as a content creator now? Yeah, I would say a creator. Yeah, content creator, influencer. You would still use the word influencer? Yeah, because I guess I'm influencing people to buy my book. But this is so, okay, this is the thing that I'm so interested in. It's like, I would argue there's a difference between influencer and content creator, and it's partly where your income comes from. So if you're an influencer and you're earning income from brands, the brand is your customer. So you want to please the brand so you can continue working with that brand, and then you're selling that, you're a human magazine, you're selling that to your audience.

37:01And the way I think of content creator is like you have a sub stack, right? You're directly earning income from your audience. It still has its upsides and downsides because if your audience is paying$5 a month, they act entitled. But that's how I see the difference between influencer and content creator. But I think a lot of people think of influencer as someone who's just influencing. Who's influential. Yeah. And like you don't even need to be selling products. Like right now I'm not selling products except for my book, but I'm still called an influencer and that's fine. You're okay with it?

37:24Totally. Do you still do brand deals? I'm curious. No. But I'm open to it. On purpose? Oh, you're open to it. No, that's what I was curious about. Listen, my fiance's like, you're on Instagram way too much to not be making any money from that thing. I'm like, I'm selling my book. To me, you're a creator because the book is something you created. Yeah. And you're selling it to your own audience. Yeah. What do you identify as? Oh, a content creator. Okay. I don't make any money from influencing. Would you be open to it? That would be the weirdest plot twist in my life. I don't think I could. I don't think.

37:52It would be really like meta. It would be true. I think it would be too. That would be true. Is there a number in my life? Listen, there's a number for everything. I'm thinking of offering some expensive workshops. Do it.

38:03Danielle:I'll support. Lee Tillman, is there something you lost during that time that you'll never get back? No, because I would say I lost myself, but I definitely got myself back. And I have like no regrets about the whole experience. I got to live this crazy experience. I was able to put it in a book and now it's out there. I think that's a gift. I also believe that everything happens for a reason and I have no regrets. And I'm so glad that I was able to put it into a book and that it's helping people. Have you had other people who have been canceled, so to speak, reach out to you? Yes, and I have reached out to the canceled and had coffee with them or Zoom with them.

38:42And it's always such an awesome experience because we get to, like, bond over it. And it's such a rare thing to be canceled, so oftentimes they don't really know who to speak to. So it's one of my favorite things is to, like, reach out when they're canceled and be like, I'm here. Do you ever feel like they deserve to be canceled? No, I don't think anyone deserves to be canceled. No. It's like a public death. It's a public death, yeah. What's the saying? Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. Like when Matilda Jerk was canceled for like not letting her employees use her bathroom.

39:12Like okay, yeah, she was like mean to her employees. All the things that women are canceled, like men do every day, don't even get me started. But I pride myself on reaching out to canceled women and supporting them in any way I can.

39:24Danielle:It's interesting too because you went through it during a time, it was sort of new. There was no one to call to be like, hey, how did you handle this? Or if I apologize, how does it go? you were navigating in real time. I was, but I was lucky enough to be connected to a couple people in the music industry who deal with the PR firm, their crisis PR firm, where they deal with, like, you know, rappers who get to drunk driving accidents and have to make public statements. And they were like, well, your time is comely. Everyone has it. Anyone in your shoes has it. Like, basically what they're saying is everyone has, like, a little scandal.

39:56It's part of being in the public.

39:58Danielle:So I was reading that 57 % of Gen Z individuals would choose to be an influencer are given the opportunity. And now even the generation below them, I think the number one profession that they want to be is like a YouTuber influencer. Your book really highlights the truth of it. What do you think those seeking a life online should know? Okay. So I would say if you're like in your late teens or early twenties to really make sure that you have a solid in-person support system, because it can get really murky when you start to lose sight of reality, which is what we were talking about before with that private persona and then your public self.

40:38Like they are two separate things and it's very important to keep the boundary. And I think that like anyone who tries to meld them is in for maybe burnout and loss of identity, loss of self. It's a work, it's a job. So you're going to show up and you have to be able to turn it off and go home to your family and cook dinner and show up. And good boundaries and maybe like write down a list of things that you don't want to share and why and you have good boundaries with that because once you share you can never unshare.

41:07Danielle:Can you say more about that because there's this protective layer that I've heard you talk about. It actually really hit me personally because somebody said to me in like a high up position at a digital media company and she said, Danielle you're doing this backwards. You're building a podcast and hoping that people will follow you and you need to build a following and then they'll listen to your podcast. And she's not wrong, but I don't want to be an influencer. That's not where my joy is. And so after her conversation, she was like, Philma, get on ready with me and see how you feel. So that night I'm in the mirror, I'm taking off my makeup.

41:40Danielle:I put the phone, you're looking like your eyes are so wide. And I'm thinking like, how can I do this in a way that feels like me? I got on ready six times. And I was like, this is just not for me. And it's that protective layer and everybody's is different of what is comfortable to share and what's not. That video has been deleted and will never be posted on the internet. But I've heard you talk about how that protective layer is something that you felt early on and you just purposely ignored. Yes. Very intuitive of you to say that. A lot of people are like, how did you get to where you were? The key to my success was to purposely ignore that natural human intuition to protect and preserve personal details, your private life, you know, things that we keep private and we show up at work.

42:27We're not airing our dirty laundry, so to speak, to everybody. We have, you know, discernment with who and what we share. And I purposely learned to quell and shut that up because it was helping me succeed. Because then, you know, people are seeing me talk about my period coming back and they're like, oh my God, I feel like I'm talking to my best friend because she's sharing about her period. and I was sharing my daily period schedule. You're getting positive reinforcement for disclosing vulnerable information. Yeah, oversharing. And brands love it. Brands love it. It's like, I hate to say it, it's like fast, cheap love.

43:00But just as quickly as it can be given to you, it can be taken away. So luckily that muscle has regrown and I listen to it now.

43:08Danielle:If you look at things online in terms of what is most popular, horoscopes are very popular. Wellness is up there on every single platform. It's growing. It's not decreasing. Where do you guys think the wellness community and culture is going? Well, I think right now we're in a very low trust society and we have lost trust in a lot of institutions that our parents or our grandparents believed in, like the mainstream media, medical institutions, public health experts. And so I think when people feel betrayed, confused, curious, they'll look for alternative sources of information. So I think this explains why people would turn to an influencer for health and wellness information.

43:49I think they want some kind of alternative. Yeah, I would say there's that. But also, I think the pendulum is swinging again in the opposite way, because like when Make America Healthy Again and RFK Jr. kind of became part of the cultural dialect earlier this year, and he's kind of proposing, you know, going back to alternative medicines. A lot of people, because they don't like Trump, they don't like that. And so they're pro-doctor, pro-science, It's pro everything again and pro red dye. Just to be like an F you to RFK Jr. It's black and white thinking. Yeah. It's a Maha pipeline. I see all these videos being like, going on a We Over Workshop from the Maha pipeline, like raw butter.

44:27I don't know if you follow Snack Shots on Instagram. No. She does a lot of really funny memes about beef tallow and just like the latest trends. I think it kind of continues to get crazier and crazier. A lot of people are using beef tallow as sunscreen. I have not done that. But listen, if I was a wellness influencer, I would probably be doing that. I was down to clown, down to try everything. I was like, you have to have… You were a human guinea pig. Yeah. So you have to have an experimenter's mindset. And I think in many ways that can help you. Like I turned to wellness because I felt like the medical system had failed me.

45:01I was diagnosed with PCOS and they said, you got to go on birth control. And I was like, I don't want to go back on birth control. I'm off of it. My doctor was like, well, sorry, next. And I was like, okay, of course I'm going to go to holistic health after that. There's a book I could read about how to heal PCOS in 30 days if you eat this way. Sure. Sign me up. You've got to eat anyway. There's something very alluring about these quick fixes or like these lifestyle shifts. Anything that gives you the idea that you're in control. You can control what you eat for 30 days. Yeah. Exactly. You can't even control when you can get your OBGYN appointment.

45:34Danielle:No, I know. Lee Stein, I'd like to start with you on this one. And what do you think the ultimate cost is of turning your personal life into a public brand? What have you seen? Well, I think relationships can become transactional. As you grow in status or influence, you wonder if the people around you just want something from you. So I think this is what creates this loneliness effect that we were talking about earlier. It can also be impossible to turn off the part of you that's the creator. It's very hard to separate work and personal life and find that balance. if your job and your personal life are like in the same little computer that you carry around in your pocket.

46:12It's very hard to leave and take a vacation. Like it's very hard to sign off. I think that's a fantasy because I work with so many writers and writers are like, but I don't want to be on social media or they want to take a break from social media. You can leave for a short time, but you have to live online. And I've lived online since the late 90s. It's my second home. I have a lot of joyful, happy memories of being on the Internet. It's not a place that I want to leave. I think in general, whether you're an influencer, you're just a user, I think people right now feel this intense ambivalence about the internet where they want to sign off and they can't.

46:42And so that's causing a lot of inner conflict. Already feeling this self betrayal when I log on because I don't want to be logging on. And so I'm logging on even though I don't want to be on. So I'm in here myself and then I see concepts that I'm not happy about, you know, and you're overriding your time limit, you know, like we try to set boundaries. Like we're like, I'm only going to do this for X number and then we're like password. Lee, what do you think? I think that you sacrifice your inner peace and knowing that like there's a life beyond the internet.

47:11Danielle:You can just get too lost in the sauce. Lee Stein, who do you think ultimately benefits from the wellness industry? Who benefits from the wellness industry? As it exists now. I think I once said no one has ever lost money by making women feel bad about themselves. So as long as there continue to be cultural conversations about flaws that women have and how they could be better, whether that's at money, at business, their weight, their skin care, their hair, there's going to be a company to fill that void. And I just feel like wellness and the beauty industry are so connected at this point. You know, like, what are you buying from Moon Juice?

47:47And what are you buying from Drunk Elephant? And, like, who's the one making the vitamins? And it's all tangled up together. So companies continue to benefit from us. Trying to improve. Go ahead. I was just gonna say that like I agree and what's wrong with trying to improve too. Like there's also nothing wrong with trying to improve. I think that this like critique of wellness and beauty can be really like swing to the other end of the pendulum. Where like any time you care about what you look like you're engaging in the patriarch. And that's like just as extreme and harmful and judgmental as someone deciding that they want to use retinol.

48:20I might be the oldest one here, I'm 40. But what I'm noticing in my peer group is like a lot of my friends are getting Botox. My cousin who's younger than me is getting Botox or using retinol. And I have no interest in using these products. And I'm interested in my lack of interest in using these products. But I realized like I don't have a fear of like losing my beauty. I don't have a fear of people looking at me being like, that woman is in her 40s. That's not my fear. My fear is losing my relevance culturally. Like becoming irrelevant, not being invited to have this conversation. Let's invite someone younger than Lee.

48:51That's my fear. And so I can relate and sympathize with my friends who want to use these products to look younger because I understand their fear, even if my fear is like a different shade of the same. Yeah, it's a different shade of the exact same thing. Yeah.

49:03Danielle:Thank you for sharing that. It's a very vulnerable thing to share. And I think it's interesting. Your fear initially was not belonging. Do you still have that same fear? No, because I know where I belong and I'm just here to share online. And like I believe that my content will resonate with the people who are supposed to get it. and the ones that get it and the ones that don't, and I'm not here to please everyone like I used to be. The one thing nobody's asking you in interviews that I'm very curious about is what did your parents think about all of this? When I first went to LA, I was like, I'm going to go try to monetize my Instagram.

49:35They were like, what? And I was like, I saved the money. I'm going to do it. I'm making this decision, packed up my Vitamix, flew to LA, and within a year and a half, had quit my waitressing job and was full-time influencing. And they were like really proud. They didn't fully understand. It sounded like they were unsupportive. They just like were like, what? You're going to Hawaii with Lululemon? Okay, okay. And then all of a sudden like, you know, my mom was from a Mother's Day campaign with Athleta. Like I got to start flying my mom out and she got her makeup done. I mean, she was like, this is so cool.

50:05Like my daughter is doing so well. And then when it started to get hard, they started to hear a lot of it and they were really excited for me to step back. Because they just were like, whoa, like she's deep in this and it's not healthy. I remember like I'm so grateful because when I was ready to walk away, I think some parents would be like, no, you have to keep doing it. Like you're making so much money. And they were just like pro taking care of yourself before putting yourself out there. Can I circle back to you gave this great stat about how many Gen Z want to be content creators. I've cited that stat too.

50:35It shocks people when I tell them. But I have a lot of sympathy for this younger generation because it's like we told everyone to go get a bachelor's degree. They took out six figures in debt to get their bachelor's degree. And then they can't get hired. And now we're telling them that AI is replacing all the skilled labor that they learned to do with an undergraduate degree. So I can understand the point of view that's like, I'm going to hustle like that YouTube star. I'm going to build an audience. I can take my audience with me if I build this loyal fan base. And that's how I'm going to earn income.

51:00And like internships are getting slashed just as much as like the influencing industry. You can lose a corporate job in an instant too. Work is work. Yes, like some work is different and harder, but at the end of the day, I think like work is work and like the lie of like, love your job and you never work a day in your life. You know, and I was always kind of chasing that and like being like, maybe I'll do interior design. It's like, listen, no, like the work is work. But I think until everyone recognizes that content creating is labor, they're going to keep being surprised that so many young people would want to be like, there's still this disconnect that it's not a real job.

51:34Andrew Yang just wrote this piece about what AI is doing to the job market, whatever. And he's like, we need to train young people for jobs in the real world with valuable skills. My kids want to be YouTube creators. I'm trying to talk them out of that. And I'm like, okay, you don't think that's a real job in the real world. Oh, I know. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know. And he's a technologically savvy person. Yeah, but to him, that's not a real job. And I understand, like, not everyone's going to become an Oscar-winning actress. Not everyone's going to become Taylor Swift. Not everyone's going to become a YouTube star.

52:00But, like, can't we acknowledge that this is a real job? Can we just start there? There's a misunderstanding when people talk like that. Like, go get a real job, go become a plumber. We don't have enough plumber. Yes, we do. I don't think there's a shortage of plumbers. But also, who is Andrew Yang watching on Instagram? Andrew Yang is on Instagram watching content that's created by creators. I'm sure. He creates content. Yeah. Something just kind of happened this morning. The Christian girl, Autumn, did you guys see that? Oh, yes. So she posted a video yesterday crying, saying that she's burnt out.

52:28She needs to take a break this fall. Crying because she needs to take a break this fall and she's feeling the pressure and that every video needs to be better than the last. And she's crying. And I saw it and I was like, oh my God, I immediately reposted it, put it to stories and was like, influencer burnout is real. This is what I want my book to, but it was fake. And then today she posted, just kidding, it's false. The comments on the TikTok video were, is this satire, is this satire? People were trying to figure it out. So that was driving engagement. So yeah, exactly. So she drove a lot of engagement telling him doing this fake cry video, but my comment still stands that like, there is so much burnout.

52:59This is a real job. The comments that I was seeing, because right TikTok shows you comments pertaining to what you see and what your algorithm is. Comments I was seeing was, get a real job. This isn't real. There are people dying. As if a woman in the South crying about her job isn't worthy because someone else is dying. Like, she's allowed to be burnt out. This is a real job. Like, influencers' jobs are real. They're really hard. Like, even if that video was, I would be surprised if she didn't feel a little bit of that. Like I better do it bigger and better this year than last year. I'm going to do this PR stunt to raise myself even higher because you've got to outdo yourself as an influencer.

53:36Analytics are the most important thing. How can you be bigger, better, and not lose relevance? Everybody online is afraid of losing relevance. You can reinvent yourself and stay relevant. To being a pop star. You have to change your hair. You have to stay relevant and you have to like adapt to the change in the algorithm. And adapt to culture.

53:52Danielle:Yeah. When people pull stunts like that online, as a viewer I lose trust. I don't know if that's me being old. If you feel like you're left out of the joke. If you feel like you're in on the joke, like when I did my prank, you were in on the joke, right? Right. So I think it's a matter of whether you feel included or excluded. Interestingly, that's a great point. I'm curious how you think AI will or won't impact influencer culture. I'm one of the only writers in America who's not afraid of AI. Everyone's so afraid of AI. I love AI too. I don't even know. I didn't say I loved it. I said I wasn't afraid of it because I think as AI gets more and more sophisticated, we're going to increasingly crave human connection.

54:33And so anything that's providing like a high touch personal service, like I think people are going to want to go to a therapist, not use a therapist chat bot. So I think if you're a writer and you build a fandom and audience for your writing, I don't think people want the robot version of a Lee Stein novel. Like I think they want my novel. As long as you're a writer who has an audience, like AI can't replace you. So I don't have a fear of AI. So about six months ago, I got an email from an AI company saying, hi, Lee, we can make an AI of you and you can start to work with brands. So if Dove wants to work with you, we can just type in a script and it will be an AI ad and you can post it and make like, you know, three grand.

55:07And I thought, interesting, can't have mine for the future. But right now, no. But how crazy is that? They'll make AI ads like using my likeness, using this blazer, and me's talking about soap. But you wouldn't feel that's breaking a contract with your audience? No, of course. Of course. Of course. I was kind of kidding. No. And also, by the way, like Dev – I'm not saying that Dev is working with them. They're using an example. That's crazy. But also, like, it's already being happening. H &M is using AI models. They're talking about it. No, I believe it. But, like, I don't think we're that far away from that happening.

55:36But then I think people will stop following – like, don't you think people will know? Don't you think your spidey sense will tingle? Like, there's something weird about this ad? Yeah. Like, sometimes when I watch, like, a commercial, I'm like, oh my god, this was made with AI. You can kind of tell. But if it gets so good that you can't tell, who knows? I'm not so concerned about like, you know, whether or not we can tell. I think to get to your first question, I think the future of AI or of influencing is like, I think we're going to get deeper into like virtual reality with influencers. We'll like be in the room with them.

56:03Or like we can put on goggles and be watching them as they like get ready with me. I mean, it's really creepy, but why wouldn't we get even further? That was such a funny scene in your book where a husband bought his wife you. Oh, no. And you showed up to make breakfast. And she was like, can we take a selfie? And you're like, you have me by the hour. Like, yes, we can take a selfie. That was so surreal. But you're saying like that could happen with like putting on goggles. Yeah. Maybe like pay$50 to get into Emma Chamberlain's room. I'm pretty sure like I was at a tech conference and that's what they were like saying.

56:30Like that's the future of Instagram.

56:32Danielle:But at the beginning of this conversation, Lee Stein, you turned to Lee Tillman and said the end of her book made you emotional. Yeah. Can you explain why? Yeah, I don't want to spoil the ending, but there's this hard choice at the end between doing something that would show your parents that this was a real job that would impress them, some kind of milestone that would be meaningful to them, and going into treatment for your eating disorder. And you have this hard choice to make. And it just made me real emotional because it was like a genuinely hard choice to make. Was it emotional for you to write?

57:04Yes. The flood scene, every time I read that or talk about it or think about it in my head, just like looking around and being like, I don't want any of this and just like picking up Sanson and leaving. Yeah. This thing that I had spent years building, this online world and this brand and this thing that had the potential to make millions of dollars. I mean, I had a staff of people that I was working with and I had just talking about doing a TV show, like there was so much potential and it was so easy to walk away from. Just goes to show me like I trust myself. I have so much self-respect for that, that I was like able to walk the walk and talk the talk too.

57:39Like I had the courage to walk away and the courage to return.

57:41Danielle:My last question is, can wellness exist outside of capitalism or is it inherently tied to something? My book, Self-Care, came out in 2020. So people would ask me like, what are your favorite self-care rituals, of course? And I would just say like, honestly, self-care is free. Like self-care is like sleeping and drinking water and like getting outside and getting sunlight. Like all these things are free, but because you can't sell them, like you don't see them marketed to you all the time. Or you see it's like, buy this Stanley for your water. Right, your water tracker. Buy this oil for sleep. Like they're trying to, yeah.

58:16So I think, yes, wellness, how you take care of yourself does not have to be attached to any products. I have a really good role model in my mom. Like she is a very, how to put this, like non-capitalistic, restrained and takes care of herself. She's engaged in kind of like the bangles and whatever, you know, the hokas. like it's always been very simple but she does a really good job of taking care of herself through just daily movement which has always been like free either running and now that she's older walking like playing sports with friends she plays tennis with her friends community is free and listen the reason that so many people i think turn to capitalist wellness is because finding a group of friends and support system is really hard a lot of people just want to be at home like this They don't want that in-person intimacy that comes from being vulnerable and sharing and dating.

59:08You know, all these things that a lot of people are dealing with in post-COVID 2025. They're hard and uncomfortable. So it's kind of easy to just go on Pinterest and look at this, like, mood board of, like, you know, 15 different things I use to change my life and buy everything and think, I can just buy this. Yeah, this is very American. Yeah, it's very American. Yeah, change my life by buying something. But I do believe that like wellness doesn't need to be tied to capitalism. Yeah, it's all about like your spiritual wellness. This is for me taking care of my mental and spiritual wellness, which to me is like meditation, journalism, talking to people, community, which is very important for social support.

59:46You need a social network and movement and hydration and basic foundational things. Yeah, we just find ways to make money from them.

59:56Danielle:Is there a line in here that you feel really proud of or like something that in weeks when this all dies down that sort of like outlives you? Okay, so it's from the epilogue. As far as jobs go, it can be a pretty good one. I'm not denying that. So long as it stays a job. So long as it doesn't blur the line between professional and personal so much that you jeopardize your sanity. I'm not against influencing as a career. What I'm against is not being aware of the dangers and completely losing yourself online the way I did and forgetting all the joy and beauty of the real world. Finding that balance isn't easy when using a technology that was designed to be addictive, but I feel that given my experience, I'm perfectly positioned to help people try.

1:00:40I think a lot of people want an all or nothing stance with this book. They want me to be offline forever and be like, F you, Instagram. And people are uncomfortable with the gray. but if I was truly going to be anti I probably wouldn't have done this press but what's the point of working on work and sharing your art if you're not going to talk about it and try to get it out in front of as many people as possible it's a very natural human thing but yeah I'm really proud of where I am now and I want this book to reach all the people that it needs to and many of them have disappeared and the influencers have gone into the darkness and burnt out so find them and give them this book I gotta say this week on TikTok I don't get a lot of hate comments.

1:01:21I'm not as famous as the other Lee, but I got the meanest comment I've ever gotten on TikTok this week. I made a video of good news and I lip synced a song and kind of danced for seven seconds. That was a video. And the person wrote, embarrassing. I think you're a brilliant writer. And I think it's embarrassing for you to be dancing like a teenage girl on TikTok to promote your book. I think all writers should stop doing self-promotion on social media. And this comment was like so triggering to me. And it reminded me what you just said, because it's like I worked three and a half years on my novel.

1:01:50Yeah. And I shouldn't be on camera with my face smiling and lip syncing to a song. But also that tells more about them and what they believe and how they want you to show up than you. Like that's the one thing that I've realized is like it's all projections. This person doesn't know you. They're just seeing a slice. Yeah. And they're just like, this is how I expect you as a woman to show up. You're not showing up the way I see you. This is triggering me. This is no, no. She's basically trying to police you. You also have a new.

1:02:16Danielle:I do. But coming out, will you tell us about it? Yes, this is a gothic mystery set in a TikTok hype house. A aging millennial woman who can't get a new job takes a job managing a hype house of Gen Z content creators. And one of them is a tarot card reader who has gone missing from the house. So it is partly a satire of TikTok culture. How do you think about these things? I don't know how you come up with these things. And also tell me if I'm right or wrong, but the title is If You're Seeing This It's Meant For You, which to me feels like a play on the Drake quote, if you're seeing this, it's too late, which went everywhere in culture.

1:02:53I don't know that cultural moment. The title comes from Tarot TikTok, so as you're scrolling TikTok, a video will come up and say, this video was meant to find you. If you're seeing this, it's meant for you. And you're like, what is it? And then you click on it and it's like, someone's thinking about you. It's always the message you wanna hear. And then it's like comment, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, if you want my ebook. Comment, I claim. Yeah. So that's where the title comes from. Oh, my God.

1:03:15Danielle:I really thought I had it figured out that there was this double entendre. No, I'll take it. Lee and Lee, thank you both for your time. This was really fun and interesting. So fun. Thank you, Danielle. Thank you. Thank you.

1:03:32Danielle:Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

1:03:52Danielle:Okay, here's the thing. Life doesn't exactly slow down, and neither do I. Between work and travel and podcasting and everything else on my calendar, I need clothes that can keep up. That's why I'm all about cotton. It's natural, breathable, soft, and doesn't shed microplastics when washed. Plant, not plastic. So whether it's a perfectly worn in t-shirt, elevated loungewear, or the cozy cotton PJs that you'd prefer to wear all day long, cotton always delivers. It's comfortable, makes getting dressed easy, and then it somehow always looks good. Cotton, the fabric of our lives. What's up fam? It's sports journalist Ari Chambers.

1:04:27Hey, what's up y 'all? It's your girl Sam Jay. And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together. We're breaking down the biggest headlines, the viral moments, and the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports. From game-changing performances to culture-shifting conversations, we'll give you our takes, our debates, and a few laughs along the way. Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to Everyone Watches Women's Sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything.

1:05:00The question is, what remains when the shaking stops? Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano. And on my podcast, Unshaken with Gary Vee, I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them. The lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary Vee on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Emily Oster. I'm an economist and data expert. And I'm Perry Wilson. I'm a medical doctor. And this is our new podcast, Wellness Actually. You're getting a staggering amount of health and wellness information, and some of it is awesome.

1:05:42And some of it is, well, actually, bulls**t. Fortunately, we're both people who know how to read studies and can tell you what's worth trying out and what you can safely ignore. Listen to Wellness Actually on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The World Cup is underway, and it's been incredible. On our podcast, The Away End, with Daniel Alarcon and John Green, we're talking about the games that have delighted us, the teams that have inspired us, what we're loving and what surprised us, all through the lens of being massive fans of the world's most beautiful game.

1:06:13Danielle:Daniel, this tournament has been magical so far. There's so much to love, and I can hardly believe the drama that the group stage brought us. And now it's time for us to talk about the teams that are left as the field is whittled down to one World Cup champion on July 19th. Listen to The Way End with Aniel Alarcon and John Green on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.