Do You Know How to Fight...Well? With Priya Parker

26:54I think it was four siblings and parents. And they always, growing up, they would always go to a like ski cabin. And she was the youngest of these four kids. And she had gotten married and they had all gotten married. So it was sort of like the turning of the, you know, the turning of the, what's the metaphor, screw? The turning of the guards. Thank you. The turning of the guards. And it was the first time her collective family was going for a vacation. And her parents invited all four couples, all the couples. And they got there. And this woman I know was horrified because she assumed that there'd be five bedrooms.

27:33Right. There were two. One for the adult parents and then a shared room of bunk beds. I know. For the eight adults. And I'm just going to let it sit there. Just sit there for a moment, right? Like all the devils are here, right? All of the assumptions come out, all of the shock, all of the embarrassment, all of the rage, all of the confusion. Like, how could they possibly? And she took her mother to the side. And in the heat of the moment, it's like, where are all the other bedrooms? And the mother's like, oh, we thought it would be like good old times. My throat hurts. I'm speechless. And it's like, as a facilitator, it's such an interesting moment.

28:26Yes. Right? Right. And often in groups, in friend groups, longer term friend groups, in organizations, in families, we often don't get to question or see change except through a fight. Right. Right. And so in that moment, they had to deal with whatever they had to deal with. But so much of coming out of it was actually having the parents realize. And actually, and the woman who I spoke to gave me this example, she said she took a step outside of the shared bedroom. she stepped out into the hallway she was livid and then she also like could tap into her grief and her mother's grief that they're no longer the family they once were oh yeah because they're not yeah and so often we don't realize that until there's eight bunk beds for like for married couples.

29:21And so you can, part of getting curious about these moments is it's often actually in really big moments that conflicts arise because they're visible to everyone and we have different assumptions. And so fighting, the art of fighting is first getting curious about these moments. The second is taking a deep breath. And the third is you don't always have to solve it in the moment. It's actually becoming more curious about what's happening here in your life. What do you think good conflict makes possible that this sort of fake peace or harmony doesn't allow for? Being seen, being vulnerable, having the radical act of knowing that you affect someone and that they affect you.

30:03And part of our fear, I mean, there's a lot of fear of conflict and some of it is, you know, conflict is inherently risky and you can fight poorly. But part of what happens in a fight is the first step is you have to admit that something bothered you. Right? Like, I felt really hurt you didn't save a chair for me. Yeah. Right? Do I want to actually say that? Or I feel like, Mom, when you book four bunk beds, it makes me feel like you don't understand my life and you still see me as a child, whatever the sentence is. Conflict is intimate and working with teams, working with groups. Honestly, one of the things people are most afraid of is admitting that something impacted them.

30:49There's this great question you ask in the book, which is, can I tell the truth and still belong here? And that really hit me, especially in my family dynamics. I find I'm more truthful elsewhere. That's true for a lot of us. It's interesting. And so I think I'm going to be lingering on that one. But as somebody who's spent years navigating conflict. How do you think you think about it differently than a therapist does? I love this question. And I, people often say, are you a therapist? I say, no. Are you a lawyer? No. And it's like, wait, what are you? And my core training as a craft for 25 years is I have been trained in the process of group dialogue.

31:31It is actually a thing. It's a field. And so much of what I was a student at the University of Virginia when I first learned about this process called sustained dialogue. I was lucky and very fortunate that the person who created this specific process called Hal Saunders came down to the University of Virginia to train us in this methodology. And so much of what he trained us to do first was to just listen, to learn how to listen and actively listen, listen for the need underneath, but also listen to what people are actually saying. He would have us do exercises where we would listen and hold a group of eight people and try to run a conversation.

32:10And actually what happens, I mean, we were 19, right? Actually what happens when you're starting to run a conversation is you think it'll go one way in your head and then there's actually eight living, breathing beings in front of you. And so you have to figure out like, oh, how do I, who talks first? What question do we ask? What question do you ask first? How do you make sure that only two people don't talk? Like it's actually a really complicated thing to have a group dialogue. And so, so much of my training is in communication. It's in, it's also in power. I studied social and political theory and facilitators who aren't trained in power are going to be incredibly ineffective.

32:49And I became a, I became a dialogue facilitator, but I also went to business school. And so I understand collective intelligence and branding and marketing, but also what people are actually fighting about. Um, and like anything, facilitators, it's like a David Brooks, the writer, once I heard him say this at a conference, he said, no question worthy of pursuit is answerable in a lifetime. Say that again. No question worthy of pursuit is answerable in a lifetime. Oh, I love that. Isn't that beautiful? Yes. And I think like, how do you facilitate meaningful connection across difference is a question worthy of a lifetime.

33:27Yeah. Right. And so as a facilitator, I'm constantly learning new processes and techniques, but I'm also reading about the world. And so that I deeply understand what the content or context is of the people that are coming to me and coming to us. Why do you think questions are such a powerful tool in fighting? They often, well, depending on how you ask the question, I was going to say they slow things down. Okay. Unless it's a really like, are you always this stupid? That may not slow things down. But questions at their best offer an openness. There's an opportunity for curiosity. Yeah. And you know you are a master of questions.

34:08Questions can be asked to shut down and questions can also be asked to open up. So questions are a tool. But done well, a question allows for an idea that you had to be displaced and or the aperture of your lens of what you're looking at to be widened. Beautiful. And so questions in dialogue, questions are sort of the fence of the conversation. And so questions are map making tools. They widen the geography or they narrow the geography. And so questions are probably the thing we're most trained in as facilitators to understand how to ask a great question. That's so cool to hear. You mentioned power, and it made me think of a workplace fight.

34:56I want to go through sort of these four categories, which will be workplace, friendship, romantic, and family. And I was thinking about The Devil Wears Prada because that was such an iconic movie this summer. But we've all sort of had a version of a Miranda Priestly. And she's brilliant and powerful and terrifying and very impossible to please. What do you do when fighting could be seen as problematic, when you're the person that's not in power? Because I can't imagine fighting with my boss. Yeah, yeah. I mean, workplaces have cultures of conflict. Some workplaces have healthy heat. Some places have really toxic conflict.

35:38Some places have avoidance. And when you are in a workplace, you are part of a culture. And if you have less power in that workplace, it is harder to do something that goes against the grain of that culture. And so in a context like the Devil Wears Prada, right, Miranda is the entire, she is the ecosystem of that entire place. She is the rain and the sunshine and the light and the wind. And, you know, I think of that scene of the blue sweater. Yeah. The cerulean blue. The cerulean blue. Yeah. And I think there's so many ways, if you just take that simple example, there's so many ways to read that moment.

36:18And to me, when I actually, from an art of fighting perspective, Devil Wears Prada 1, to me, is actually, we think the conflict is between Miranda and Andy. Yeah. Miranda and Andy, Annie Hathaway's character. But actually, to me, as I watch the film, there's a deeper conflict, and the conflict is within Andy. You're so right. Am I a journalist? And is this job above me? Yes. Or am I a fashion editor and I want to be part of this world? And the existential conflict of that film is actually within Anne Hathaway. I don't know why you just gave me chills. And so it's like going back to that need, like thinking about that scene, what is it?

37:05Cerulean. Cerulean Blue. Yeah. If you look back at that dialogue, what she actually, I mean, yes, the way Miranda says it is, you know, completely humiliating. Yes, she is a dogmatic leader. Yes, she is using her power to rule with an iron fist. And if you listen to what she says, if I remember it correctly, she says something like, you know, you think you're just wearing that lumpy blue sweater to signal that you don't care about this world, that you are too busy to care about what you look like. Right. That's the first half of the monologue. And then the second half is what she says, you think that's a sweater, you think that's blue, but it's actually not.

37:50It's not even turquoise. It's not even lapis. It's circulean. And part of what she's doing in Andy's, what I would say is she's actually speaking within what Andy values. Yes. Which is expertise, which is craft as a journalist, which is understanding how industries form and shape. Yeah. And so, though it seems vicious, what she's actually calling on is whether or not Andrea is wanting and willing to see fashion as a world that she wants to enter and be respected in. Yeah. Or if it's just something that's frou-frou. And I would say that scene is where Miranda throws down the gauntlet to say, this is a field you should respect.

38:38Yeah, it's a turning point. You're right. Right. And all of the roles, we're really going in here now, the roles that Andy's boyfriend, very handsome boyfriend and friends play is, you know, if you look at the scenes, she's always going to a restaurant or going to their house or having wine. She's drinking other, completely other cultural symbols than what she is. Like, she's not drinking champagne with her friends, if I remember correctly. She's like having a beer. Yeah. These are all she's actually navigating these different worlds as we all are. And the core question for Devil Wears Prada One is actually for Andy.

39:11It's who am I? Wow. Priya, I'm mind blown. While we're on the topics of TV and film, you have this great example in your book from the bear. And for anybody who isn't familiar, it's a show about working in a high-end kitchen and there's constant fight or flight mode. And people are technically arguing about service and standards and mistakes, but there's actually a lot underneath it. will you share the example from the book? Because I'm actually going to now use this. It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful moment. It's from season one. It's a beautiful scene. And you kind of see the relationship between Carmi, the main character, and Sydney, his, I think, sous chef, develop over the course of the season.

39:53And there's a moment where in the middle of service, Carmi kind of yells, as happens often at Sydney. And instead of just, again, pretending it didn't happen, And her having to pretend it didn't bother her, right, goes back to the conflict is intimate. He looks at her and he draws a circle around his chest. And she says, if I remember correctly, something like, what is that? And he said, it means I'm sorry in sign language. I used to see my two chefs do it in the heat of service. Where it's like, there's too much to go to repair right now. There's too much. But it's acknowledging that, like, I'm sorry.

40:28and I watched that scene and I was so struck by it because it was this moment it was one of the first moments in their character development where they he is willing to acknowledge his behavior and she is shocked that he cares and they end up developing this really beautiful working relationship with each other but I saw this scene and at the time I was storming with my with my son I know, even I. Hard to believe. Hard to believe. And my son was, I don't know, seven or eight at the time. And it was the first time I was really feeling as a parent, like real pushback from my child. He's my older kid.

41:12And I realized that I was starting to, like, if I didn't feel heard, I would like yell. And I did not want to yell. I was like, I'm not a yeller. This is not who I am. And I saw this moment in the bear and I was like, oh my gosh. And I told my son about it. And I said, look, when I really, if we're in the moment and I really need you to listen to me, I'm saying something six times. I often feel like if I don't say it, if I say something seven times and I'm not listening to it, then I yell and you listen. I don't want to yell. But if I really need you to listen to me, I'm going to put my hand on my chest and draw the circle.

41:47I won't use it too often, but that means I really need you to listen to me. And we started doing it. and it really, really helped. Does he use it for you too? He'll often very slightly respond. And this is now multiple years ago, but sometimes if we're out, particularly there's a lot going on and I really need him to listen or to calm down in certain ways. And it's gonna be something as simple as for crossing the street. Like there's not big existential stuff. And kids are full of energy, right? And they're wild and they're rambunctious and you don't wanna shut down all of that. But there's certain moments where I need to just get through.

42:19And so I use it and I use it sparingly and he'll like almost always he realizes like if she's taking this out, it's like time to just connect for a second. Beautiful. And I actually for the art of fighting studied restaurants because restaurants are a wonderful example of their conflict is baked into every night of service. There are restaurants that are famously toxic. It's a famously toxic field, but not all restaurants are badly run. And some of the best restaurants actually expect conflict in every night of service. And so I spent time with restaurants who bake conflict into their employee handbooks and who find ways to, like the Carmi kind of chest, you know, rubbing your fists in a circle, find ways to make sure that they're normalizing everyday repair within and across their staff.

43:11It also, it was an example of so many of the techniques that you share in the book. One that stood out to me was the cooling down moment. Like sometimes when you're in the heat of an argument, things are moving so quickly. Yes. This hand movement takes a pause. It takes a pause. It interrupts the pattern. Yes. And then you also give this other example, and it's, I didn't write down what the, if it was a church or where it was, but somebody would say, may the Holy Spirit speak through us. Oh, yes. And you said it was an invocation, not an affirmation, but it's slow, it has the cooling effect. Yes.

43:47This was one of my favorite examples of the entire book. It's with a minister named Martin Copenhaver. And he was a minister in the 90s of a church that, like so many churches at the time, were grappling with the question of whether or not to allow gay marriage in their church. And become what the parlance at the time was called an open and affirming church. And Martin Copenhaver was a minister. They were about to celebrate, I think, like their 250th anniversary as a church. And he knew he was actually, I think he was new to the church as the head minister. And he knew that this was a congregation that needed to have this fight.

44:28But he also didn't want it to tear them apart. And he realized that the tools that they had been given normally to conduct normal church service, I said that in quotes, were Robert's rules of order. which is like a very specific decision-making process to do things like, you know, should we put a swimming pool in the parking lot? Like these are not existential questions normally. And he realized, as he told me, he said the tools that we had as a congregation were not gonna be the tools that were gonna help us make this decision. And so he looked back, because it was this anniversary of the church, he looked back at some of their founding documents and he learned that this specific church tradition used to gather in ways where they were congregationalists.

45:10which meant, bear with me here, it's a little nerdy, but it's super interesting, which is they believed that there was wisdom not just in the minister, but in the congregation and through the congregation. Which is true. Which is true. And they weren't Quakers, but they were sort of Quaker adjacent. And he looked at the ways they used to come together to discuss things that were And he said to his congregation, oh, my gosh, we actually need to go back to our traditional ways, to our roots, because we have so much wisdom in our archives and we need to relearn. Also, brilliant leadership. Yeah. It's not this foreign thing, all this newfangled way of thinking.

45:53This is we go back to our elders. This is our origin story. This is our origin story. And he had them come together and practice not on gay marriage, practice on other issues. And one of the core methodologies in this congregational way of speaking together was that after anyone speaks, the entire congregation has to say the words, may the Holy Spirit speak through us. And they would practice this over and over and over again. And once Martin Copenhaver decided that they were ready to take on gay marriage, they would keep this collective practice whenever anyone spoke as they began to approach the vote.

46:30And when I asked him, why did this work so well? He said it had a cooling effect. And it made us to remember that no matter what someone said, it expanded our ability to hold whatever someone was going to say in the room. And afterwards, we would all collectively speak together. And then we would move on. I love that word hold because it makes me think everybody's holding all these opposing opinions. Yes. And they really were. I mean, I write about it in The Art of Fighting, but one person came in and had like a printed out three pager statement about why the church should not be open and affirming.

47:08And the guy stood up and he clearly hadn't been to the other practice sessions and he just started reading. And part of the invitation was speak from your heart. and someone else saw what he was doing and got so angry and yelled out, this is unconscionable. And everyone froze. And then the entire congregation said, may the Holy Spirit speak through us. And as Martin said to me, he said, through gritted teeth. Yes. And then it held. And then the guy looked around and he sat back down and he put his paper away. And then another congregant stood, and he was an elder in the church, and he said, one of the reasons I want to make this church open and affirming is because my daughter— remember, this is in the 90s, right?

47:56This is pre-gay marriage. This is a very different cultural context—is because my daughter is a lesbian, and she's the most wonderful person I know. And when she gets married—I get emotional talking about it— When she gets married, I want it to be in this church. And I want you all to be there. Oh, wow. I got chills again when you said that. That's beautiful. But part of what this minister was doing and part of what you don't need to be a minister to begin to learn these tools of the collective. Yeah. Was he was helping his group have a conversation they didn't know how to have together, but needed to.

48:36Tools of the collective. It reminded me of a very silly viral trend. There was people saying, we listen and we don't judge. And it was going all over Instagram. I love that. And it will, it was, it was anytime somebody would say something that their partner would sort of dislike, they had to like grit their teeth and say, we listen and we don't judge. That's amazing. And it's sort of this new version. That's exactly right. Yeah. That's exactly right.

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54:39that it almost really doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong. It is the art of fighting the act of doing it. Dane Cook has this very famous joke where he says the first fight you ever have in a relationship is the same fight you will have for the rest of your life. Very good. It's sort of true. Because the presenting problem is never the real problem. Do you feel like there is a way when we are fighting to not get trapped in that loop? Well, you know, like this Miranda example, I'm going to look at this scene a little bit differently. Okay. So if you rewatch that scene, you know, the famous Rachel Ross sort of, you know, how could you do this to me?

55:22For most of the scene, it's actually a split screen. It's Rachel and Ross in one room. Yeah. And it's the other four roommates and the other listening in. And they're fighting. And simultaneously, Monica and Joey and Phoebe are like listening in and they're commenting live. And so when I'm watching the scene, I'm actually looking at it from the lens of the group. Huh. And so you have these four best friends, right, who are all part of this relationship in this dynamic. And it's funny, right? There's certain moments when Joey's like, I'm going to go in there. Like, you can't go in there. He's like, I'm hungry.

55:58I need a sandwich. Right. Or he's like, there's a scene where, you know, Rachel asked like, well, how was she? And the two guys, again, split screen are like, don't answer that. Don't answer that. Right. But part of this is like, they're all they're all part of this fight. Yeah. They're all affected by their relationship, by Ross and Rachel's relationship. What happens to them affects the group. Right. Right. And so what's so brilliant about the producers is they're by showing the other four roommates, they're raising the stake. They're showing the stakes. Oh, wow. I would have never thought of the fight.

56:33And so and then they're like, oh, don't answer. And I think he said she was different. And Joe was like, oh, no. And he's like, good, different or bad, different. Right. But again, you're like they're hanging on to every word. And yes, they're the audience. They're us. Yeah. But they're also this group of friends. Yeah. Yeah. And part of when I look at this fight is looking that like most of our fights are not in a vacuum. And when we're part of a group, even the dyads affect the whole group. And so what we think of as being able to share, being able to witness, if I heard that, do I talk about it?

57:07Do we admit how you can't go in there and get your sandwich? Otherwise, they know we're going to listen. Is it better for them to listen? Are they helping hold them as a group? Or are they actually complicating their dynamic, right? Two of them are siblings within the group. And so part of the reason I love Friends is because it's a beautiful example over many years of the different dyads and relationships that are both their own individual relationships, but also become the fabric of the group and they affect each other. And they're a unit. Yeah. Speaking of friends, there's this famous scene in Insecure where Issa Ray, who plays Issa and her friend Molly.

57:42Are you familiar with it? I've seen that clip. So tell me about it. So it's not just one issue. It's like years of disappointment. And I think the reason the scene took on a life of its own the way that the scene from The Bear did was that it was so relatable. Everybody has this experience with a friend where it just sort of builds up over time. When you look at a friendship rupture like that, is anyone being an artful fighter? So if I remember the scene correctly, Issa, like something happens in the room and Issa, she texts and she's like, I don't want, like, this is not, this is not for me. And she leaves and her friend chases her out the door and says, I'm sorry, you weren't supposed to see that.

58:19That wasn't for you or something like that. And she turns around and then they face each other. Yeah. Okay. And we've all been there. There's like the moment of facing. And one of them says, well, it's not just about tonight. And the other one says, well I didn't think you wanted to talk about it which is again it's creating the space for conversation it's acknowledging that there's something between us the space between us and then in that moment part of what she's saying is like we've been off for months now and they're kind of if you remember that scene they're like assessing each other and one of them says I don't know the scene very well but one of them basically says like well I'm not really sure like what there is here and then I think Isa says something like okay and the friend says okay and then isa goes into the car and to me watching that it's actually a moment where the friend is willing to speak what princess hemphill calls the dangerous truth i'm not really sure what's here anymore this feels like it's not working and to me in speaking the dangerous truth what they're willing to actually do is acknowledge what is actually happening and in that moment it's seconds but in that moment part of what they're both assessing is the question of like why are we friends why are we still friends and is there what i call in the book still a motivating force to our present friendship are Are we friends in the present moment?

59:53Not based on the connection we had six months ago or two years ago. And part of modern life is, again, it's full of choice and people change. And often conflict is an opportunity to invite an acknowledgement and a witnessing of that change. and then a renewal of vows as to whether or not we want to update our contract, renovate the house, or whether it was beautiful and it's time to part. How do you know whether it's worth fighting for? And as you say, to bounce or to bother? The way I decided to structure the art of fighting is it's designed into three parts. The first part of the book is called tear.

1:00:35The second is called grapple. And the third is called cleave, which means to cut or to bind. And I designed the book. I tried to write the book as a guide, as a practical guide of the process that a group goes through when it's in conflict. And the first third of the book is called tear. It's actually helping the reader assess what type of fight you're in, whether or not this is something to face or to avoid. And also what type of fight is this? Is this what I call a kerfuffle, meaning it's kind of annoying, but like, you know, it's not existential. is this a hairline fracture meaning actually this it may seem small but these are very different values and you should probably you know stitch it up pretty quickly or is it a full-blown rift and in chapter three of the book i go through a set of questions can i actually read it yeah i go through a set of questions about whether or not you should face this fight so the chapter's called just dive in not so fast it happens to me again and again first people call me in a frenzy wanting to push their incipient group fight situation away or minimize it.

1:01:37But then when I help people see what they're facing, they often flip from wanting to disappear the crisis to wanting to dive into it right now like a kid into a cake. First, I have to convince people to get their heads out of the sand. Then I have to tell them to cool their jets. And I then go in and talk about the reasons not to face. So it shouldn't be conflict aversion, but there's four reasons not to face. The first is rifts can be creative tensions. So sometimes, and in this case, I talk about groups, but sometimes rifts are actually, in certain group fights, there's actually a value in keeping issues unresolved because disagreement can double as inspiration.

1:02:19And I talk about a consultant who works with organizations to find their conflict pairs, to find two elements that actually help them have a lot of life together. So one is rifts can be creative tensions. The second is this can be discussed, but not here. There's certain, particularly in the workplace, there may be a way out of the conflict, but it requires people to actually dig up parts of their childhood or trauma that's inappropriate for the workplace. And so actually there are absolutely fights one should not have in the workplace to protect people. Third, it's not a rift, it's a death. So sometimes reasons not to face is when you are actually pausing and not through conflict aversion, but because like Issa and her friend, you may realize, you know what, there's no longer weight here.

1:03:06Like there's no longer desire here. There's no longer relational longing here. And it may be really sad and it may be full of grief, but it may not be worth fighting for. And actually what you need to do, and I call these tiny heartbreaks, what you need to do may not be to face. It may be to find a way to close, write a letter and never send it. Changing a very modern way, like changing what you call them in your phone, right? Changing the words BFF to like their first name and their last name. These are all kind of modern breakups that we don't actually talk about. And then the fourth is it's not a rift, it's an informational gift.

1:03:46So sometimes people are showing you who they are. I like this one. And you should know that. And part of assessment is whether it's letting people be who they are. My husband and I argue about this one a lot. And it's a discernment. I don't know. I mean, the person may not know, but it's like, are they just showing you their real colors? Yes. Or are they alterable? And should you say something? I have a very silly example of this. So when my husband and I had our first child, we were on a beach and our kid was little. like one and a half. And a very large seagull started approaching our picnic banquet.

1:04:26Like large, like kind of scary to be near a kid. And very aggressive. He was eyeing some leftover French fries. And the bird like came up and we both are like instinctively like lashed out at the bird. And my husband yelled, no. And I yelled, hey.

1:04:50And we looked at each other. And in that moment, we realized the husband thought the bird was being the bird. And I thought the bird could do better. It's so good because yours was an invitation and his was a salutation. Yes, this was like a declaration. Yes, that's a better word. Right. And so, and we keep on laughing about this because at some level, I was trying to call the seagull. to their higher being. And he was like, it's a seagull. You got to protect your child. That's funny. And I think that like, if we were going to like pull out this metaphor, I've never spoken about this publicly before, we're going to pull out this metaphor.

1:05:33I think there's the hey and the no version of like friendship. That's so good for you. The hey and the no. Yeah. And you kind of do know deep down. And sometimes people surprise you. Yeah. You know, we also have stories in our heads. So part of discernment, to boil it down very simply, I think it's a couple of checks. The first is there's this Hindi word man, which means it means literally mind, but it actually means more like, do you feel like it? Like the phrase is mannea. And it's like, if you want to go to the movies, like, Danielle, should we go to movies together? You could say like mannea.

1:06:06And it's like, if you don't have the man, you don't have the man. Like, I get it. You don't feel like it. So the first check is like yourself. It's like, do I still have man? Like, do I still feel? And if you can be mad, you can be hurt. but often the reasons we're crying or really shaken is because we that actually that shaking and that upsetness is actually because we are also want to be in relationship with that person yeah we want to be seen we want to be respected if you don't care you leave which is why i'm interested in that how do you fight with those you want to belong to so to check and do i still have mun here and then the second is to is to also try to assess when you're calm like do i think saying something will alter this person?

1:06:47And that's a real question. And so I talk about one of the fathers of conflict resolution, his name is Kreisberg, and he talks about the four conditions that allow for conflict to actually take place. And one of them is you have to believe that by saying something, you can actually alter the situation. That is what I struggle with in my family dynamics. That's really interesting to learn. And if you want to say more. I think, and maybe I'm not alone in this, but my parents are who they are. And I love them. And so sometimes even though I know there's more there or I'm frustrated, me saying something isn't really going to change their behavior or the situation.

1:07:26Yes. There's a beautiful Christian philosopher and theologian, Joyce Ann Mercer, and she calls this strategic conflict avoidance. and she says that in some contexts, often in families, it can look the same. You can cosplay, you know, avoidance and strategic conflict avoidance. But sometimes once you've, whether you've tried everything in your toolkit, whether you have tried everything and you've spoken your piece, you've said what you've said and you realize they're not going to change, you still, you have to assess, do you still want a relationship with these people? And then at some point you have to kind of lay down the arms.

1:08:00What's the Instagram thing? I listen and I don't judge. I listen and I don't judge. Yes. And I think so much families are often such a great example of this because like they're your family. And so and like Carl Pillimer wrote a book that came out in March 2020. I mean, terrible, terrible timing for a book, but it's an amazing book and it's starting to get more traction. I just say because that's the month of pandemic hit and it's called Fault Lines. Okay. Great book. And he looks at the first ever study of a national study on estrangement. and he says first of all estrangement is growing second of all it's not as uncommon as people think it is people often have a lot of shame around estrangement it's actually it it's common he defines estrangement as not having a i think not being in touch for more than a year intentionally with someone that you deeply care about okay something like that anyway and part of what Carl Pillimer is talking about is that one of the things he says to come back from estrangement is, and he also studies those who overcome estrangement.

1:09:06And he says one of the things for those who are able to overcome estrangement is to be okay with not having the same story. And part of, whether it's an example in your family, I think how old you are kind of matters. I think young people are supposed to have fights with their parents in part to self-differentiate. And I think that particularly in modern life, families have so much difference within them that part of the way through is to continue to tap into that longing and also have a lot of fun together. Have a lot of fun together. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got when I was going into a complicated family dynamic was it was like, don't have complicated conversations.

1:09:53Have a fucking blast. Have fun together. Sing together. I have a substack called Group Life. I have a webinar. I have a group help session where I talk about how to hold heat with your family over Thanksgiving. And one of my biggest pieces of advice is have fun. Wow. The best advice I ever got as a journalist when I was doing news and entertainment news was this guy said to me, the person who has the most fun wins. Wow. It's really true. It like all comes down to it. It's really true. I have the same advice for gatherings. One of my first webinars on group life on my sub stack, and it's free and open to all, is called Host a Gathering You Actually Want to Attend.

1:10:39And when you do that, I promise you, if it makes you giggle, if it makes you feel like, I want to do that, do that. And actually, in The Art of Fighting, I bring a lot of that wisdom through when I look at groups that come through a fight. Yeah. And afterwards, the ones that are like, you're kind of licking your wounds, like it's not fun. But they've kind of come through it. And then you have this decision to make. Do we come apart or do we change and kind of renovate the house and come through? Yeah. And those that often come through are first doing other things together that isn't just about the conflict.

1:11:14But the second is they're often doing things that remind them why they like each other. It's sort of like going on a date with your spouse or partner after you've just been like in logistic nightmare for months. Yeah. And you're like, oh, we like each other. Right. And so part of like have fun. I call it watering the garden. And one of my favorite examples in the book is a guy who was having a lot of storming with his daughter. She was around 12 years old. He had divorced her mother. Complicated, like hard relationship with his kid. And it was during the Taylor Swift Eros tour. And he, I think during the pandemic, got into Taylor Swift.

1:11:50And he wanted to do therapy with her and he wanted to do therapy with her. And she kept on refusing. And I think part of it was like, we're not going to do the thing you want me to do. and she during the Aeros tour was like invited him to go to the concert I mean invited me like dad will you also pay for these tickets but he was so excited and he called me up and he was like I've had like a breakthrough it's the first time in a long time she's invited me to do anything and over the course as they planned the concert to go fly to this concert together in Chicago ago they planned outfits they made friendship bracelets they thought about which easter eggs she might you know the hints that she what which song is going to play and part of what happened was they had a different shared plane to connect around to have fun over they then went to the concert and the way he describes it it was so beautiful it was he calls like thousands it was being around like thousands of, I think, feminist wolves.

1:12:49And she was so moved that he was willing to make a fool of himself. Yeah. There were moments where they like yelled, like screamed the lyrics out loud, like we're never going to get back together again. And I think, again, in modern culture, we don't have ways to kind of storm. And it totally changed and healed something in both of them. I love that idea. It's not avoidance. It's just transference. Or it's just like add additional juice. to the system. Add additional juice. Have fun. We're all exhausted. We're all bored. Find ways to add juice to the system.

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1:14:10Cars.com has you covered. A variety of tools and badges are used to help shoppers understand the price of a vehicle and find the best deal. And every review is written by a real person, reflecting a real life experience. So don't take any chances. Do car shopping the easy way. Start your search with cars.com. Where to next? That call was really pivotal for me. Hey, it's Emily Tisch Sussman and this season on She Pivots, the podcast where women share bold career moves and personal turning points that changed everything. I sit down with culture-shifting women who share their pivots, like Paralympian Allie Truitt.

1:14:47I was like, I'm a month out from a shark attack. There's no way in 11 months I'm making the Paralympics. Advocate Elizabeth Smart. I still feel that drive that I can still make a difference, so I'm going to keep going. Celebrity chef Carla Hall. Was that scary to walk away from such a stable career after just two years? No, I was more afraid of being unhappy than I was broke in a dead-end job that I didn't enjoy. And feminist legend Gloria Steinem. All of us were trying to express women's real lives. We need a meeting place of our own. And if I can contribute to that, I'd like to maintain that and leave this house for that purpose.

1:15:26Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. College football will hijack your weekend, and ruin your sleep and break your heart. And that's why we make the Solid Verbal College Football Show. I'm Ty Hildenbrand. He's Dan Rubenstein. How's it going? Every week, we preview the games that matter, sort through the biggest storylines, and tell you what to watch before kickoff. There's a lot to keep track of. Who's for real? Which upset is hiding in plain sight? And which storyline is about to take over your group chat? And when the games are over, join us in the aftermath too.

1:16:02We're going to react to what happened, talk about the biggest results. Of course, we'll cover the playoff picture and all the little details you might have missed while flipping between like 12 games at once. Whether you know every coach and coordinator or just want to understand why everybody is yelling, we're here to help make sense of the madness. Listen to the Solid Verbal College Football Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, everybody. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes here from the Amy and TJ podcast with midterm elections just around the corner.

1:16:39We're breaking down the biggest political stories leading up to November. And some of those big political stories aren't just what's happening on Capitol Hill. Yes, we just saw Lindsey Graham, the death of a longtime senator. Also, we've got a couple of missing members of Congress. Also, we got a lot of members of Congress behaving badly. We got accusations, allegations flying all day long on Capitol Hill. It's just like a reality show. We're going to cover everything you need to know during this heated political season. And it starts with our morning run. Yes, go for a run with us. Maybe you can take us along when you're on your actual run outside.

1:17:15Or if you don't feel like going out still, you get what we're saying. It's our morning run. It's our daily news rundown of the top stories that will get you going before you even finish that first cup of coffee. Listen to Amy and TJ on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. It's everybody's favorite time of year. Girls all over America are spending thousands of dollars at Love Shack Fancy, Kendra Scott, Lululemon, and going crazy on Revolve. Is your hair perfect? Is your makeup just right? Even if your feet are killing you, it doesn't matter. Your shoes have to look good.

1:17:50No, seriously, guys, It is time for Sorority Rush. Join Daisy Kent, Gia Judice, and Jennifer Fessler and the sorority girls with the inside dirt. This is the only place you get the truth about sorority life because we are telling it like it really is. Before you hit the game day and frat parties, you better listen up. Don't miss Dirty Rush every Saturday. You'll learn about the sex lives of sorority girls, confidential bid day rituals, the secrets of initiation, and we'll be live from Sorority Rush all over the country. Plus, we'll reveal what frat boys really think about sorority girls. Dirty Rush is back and better than ever.

1:18:26Let's get dirty. Download the free iHeartRadio app, search Dirty Rush, and listen now.

1:18:36Okay, I have some rapid fire for you. The best way to end a fight. I mean, it depends on the context. but I studied ancient and traditional ways communities would fight for this book. And I looked at ways when a tribe or a village was having a group fight, what they would do. And actually, communities have so much intelligence, we've forgotten a lot of it. But all of them, whether it was in Hawaii, whether it was in the Miniyanka tradition in Western Africa, whether it was the Vikings, like internal conflict resolution, they always ended in some form of a meal together. They always ended in some symbol of whether it's sharing food, breaking bread, in some cases bringing whiskey or beer to the other side.

1:19:28It was always breaking bread together. It was a gathering. It was a gathering. What's the hardest apology to accept? An inauthentic one. What's the most underrated repair tool? Mole Hill clearing. The kind of conflict you still avoid? Ask my husband. You guys are the coolest together. Everybody is like the two of you. Okay, your go-to fight song? Probably Pink's Let's Have a Fight. Oh, that's good. A fight people should stop having? Like political opinions. Especially online. A fight you wish more people were willing to have? To admit fight with care when someone you care about hurts you. Your favorite fight scene from TV or film?

1:20:07I mean, one of them, Succession is so full of all of these family fights. And again, I wouldn't say that it's artful fighting. It's an example of what not to do. But one of my favorite, I think this is, I just find it very hilarious, was they actually brought, they were on a retreat and they brought a facilitator to try to help them. And I don't know if you remember the scene or not, but I found it so funny to all of the facilitators out there, which is like the guys like starting to have not having any progress. And then he decides to like go, the facilitator goes and like dives into the pool and he breaks his nose.

1:20:39And he like, Lee, and he, you know, he like causes all of this problems. And I just think it's just, I just found it so funny that like, even the facilitator that goes into that system, like literally gets like beat up. That is funny. It's just, I, you know, succession as an example, it's a wonderful wonderful canvas to look at unhealthy group fights it's a wonderful canvas to look at power dynamics a person you trust to fight artfully one of my best friends and i think she's we're so close because i know she will always hear me out yeah and i know that even if she wants to get defensive and i want to get defensive she will always bite her tongue while I'm talking and we'll laugh and sort of sweat together through it.

1:21:24And we're both conflict diverse, but we also have a commitment to each other to always come back together. And so I never, I mean, to this point, I'm talking about the art of fighting. I hate fighting. I hate conflict. Talking about it gets my hands sweaty, but I know that it's a doorway to deeper connection. Last question. What's a book that you read that changed your life? Something you think everybody should read? The Soul of Money by Lynn Twist. Priya, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

1:21:53Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

1:22:25I am talking to a felon right now with face tattoos, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. That was a caller from my podcast, Therapy Gecko, where I speak with anonymous callers about their problems, relationships, and anything else in the depths of their mind. It all happens on my show, Therapy Gecko. So if you're trying to get out of your own head and into someone else's, this is the podcast for you. Listen to Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So like by age 11 or so, at least 70 % have a phone. I'm Dr. Joy, and this is Therapy for Black Girls.

1:23:04We spend our surviving middle school run getting into what's happening inside your kid's brain, the group chats, and their friendships, and what you can do about it. Your child is not doing this on purpose. That's the kind of perspective we've been pulling from the psychologists and psychiatrists who study this for a living. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author Patra Mathers and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know they had died by suicide.

1:23:38Dear honeys, this is goodbye. By the time you get this letter, both Petra and I will be dead. Next Stop Wonderland. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to Death of an Artist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you. 100 % of women go through menopause.

1:24:15Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image, discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Emmanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:24:56This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.