EXCLUSIVE: Inside Gloria Steinem’s Living Room

14:43Gloria Steinem:They all have meaning, though. Like, you have so many elephants, which you love, the elephant painting behind me. You have books from all of your travels. All of the knickknacks feel like they're meant to be there. They have a place.

14:55Danielle:Well, yeah. I mean, they arrived somewhat accidentally, but by now they have a place. I mean, this door is a granary door from India, even though I didn't buy it in India. I bought it here in New York.

15:08Gloria Steinem:You have such happy memories of India, it seems. You talk about your time there quite a lot.

15:12Danielle:Yes. Well, I went there shortly after I graduated from college. I was engaged and trying to get unengaged. And also I fell in love with the country because it was newly independent, celebrating and finding itself, and also so diverse. There are 14 major languages within India, I think.

15:33Gloria Steinem:Do you remember when you got engaged?

15:35Danielle:Kind of, yeah.

15:36Gloria Steinem:Did it stress you out, or what did that moment feel like?

15:38Danielle:I think I didn't quite know what to do with myself. I was about to graduate. I didn't know what would happen. And he lived in New York and understood Manhattan. So that was already kind of an interesting mystery. He was also the best friend of the fiance of my friend, a young woman who was a student with me. So it had that kind of almost familial connection.

16:07Gloria Steinem:Do you have a really happy childhood memory that sticks out to you?

16:11Danielle:Well, I was in love with animals always. so the dog would have puppies and I couldn't give up the puppies. I would get a rabbit for Easter. I don't think this happens anymore, I hope, but if you bought Easter shoes as a child, they gave you a baby bunny. You're kidding. For every pair of shoes? That's crazy. Well, no, not one per customer, I think. So there was this white bunny that I was always kind of worried about with all the wild bunnies that were not white that were out there, you know, but I hope it was okay.

16:48Gloria Steinem:That's a really sweet memory. I wasn't expecting you to say that. You know, I've never seen you light up as much as when there was a dog staying here for a few days. So I got to see your love of animals up close.

16:59Danielle:Yes. No, I was always growing up with animals and I loved horses. I think girls and horses have a special connection. And there was a period of time in which I had a horse in a nearby farm garage or something. I mean, it was too much for me. I couldn't take care of the horse properly, but it was great.

17:21Gloria Steinem:And I know you love New York and you love Manhattan so much. I'm surprised because you can't really have animals here.

17:28Danielle:Well, you can always have animals in your house, cats and dogs and so on. And I'm not going to have a horse again. But I love New York because it's big, it's diverse, you can walk around. It was once Manahatta Island before Europeans showed up. I mean, it has a long history.

17:45Gloria Steinem:When you think about your mom and your dad, is there a trait that you think you've inherited from each one of them that stands out?

17:54Danielle:Yes, I think so. I mean, And my mother had been a journalist before she was married. She worked for a newspaper. She loved it. I remember her teaching me how to use a reporter's notebook. They're the long, skinny ones you put in your hand, you know, so you can write with the other hand. So that acquired an attraction. My father had this little summer resort where people danced over the water and under the stars, as his slogan put it. And he was happy never having a job in his life. He always worked for himself. So I probably absorbed from both of them in obvious ways.

18:33Gloria Steinem:It's funny that you bring that up because in so many of your interviews, when you talk about your dad, you mention two things. You mention that he never had a job. He was always freelance. And you seem to really admire that and that he could sustain his own way. And then secondly, that he never wore hats. Why did you like that he never wore a hat? I suppose hats were a symbol of business or conformity or upper middle class,

19:00Danielle:because if you worked in a factory, you didn't wear a hat. I don't know. I mean, but they had some kind of symbolism. So I was glad he didn't share that.

19:09Gloria Steinem:You liked that he was unconventional.

19:12Danielle:Yeah, I don't know if I thought of it that way exactly. And he was also very kind. His cure for everything was a movie and a malted, which is pretty good. actually.

19:22Gloria Steinem:When's the last time you got to enjoy that combination?

19:25Danielle:Oh, I don't remember. It was so, so long ago. I mean, it was pre-10.

19:29Gloria Steinem:Speaking of movies, I did not realize how much you loved Breakfast at Tiffany's, Gloria. That movie had such an impact on your life. Do you remember when you first saw it?

19:40Danielle:Well, also Truman Capote had written about her as a character before the movie and actually in his story she leaves and goes to Africa. I mean there's more of her life I think in his story than there is in the movie. But in both cases she just seemed free and she'd had a difficult childhood. She had a brother who was ill or she worried about you know it wasn't all fun but it was free.

20:11Gloria Steinem:Do you consider your childhood difficult?

20:14Danielle:No I don't actually you know because I always felt loved. My parents, I mean, life was not easy for them, but they always treated me like an equal member of the household.

20:25Gloria Steinem:It was a democratic household.

20:27Danielle:Yeah.

20:27Gloria Steinem:Gloria, before we ever even met, I had read all your books. I had not read this one. I had no idea that you had written 500 pages on self-esteem.

20:36Danielle:Yes, I don't exactly know how that happened.

20:39Gloria Steinem:We've never talked about this book. And so when I was reading it, This is when I found out how Breakfast at Tiffany's impacted you. Will you share why it made you so emotional? Because in this book, you talk about tearing up. Was it the freedom?

20:54Danielle:Well, because she was totally on her own. She had great hopes, but not much support. She had come to New York on her own, I think. And she had a brother at home she was looking after who was vulnerable in some way. She was her own self and making her own world in a way that probably was not so true, say, of my earlier heroine, Louisa May Alcott.

21:23Gloria Steinem:Well, a friend told you that you turned yourself into Holly overnight. And then in this book, you write about lacing your hair with blonde streaks, wearing kerchiefs, and even rocking the big iconic sunglasses. I didn't realize that it was from that movie.

21:38Danielle:Yeah, of course, I was nearsighted, so I needed glasses anyway. They were all prescription glasses.

21:43Gloria Steinem:Right. I mean, you're very utilitarian.

21:45Danielle:But it was a movie about a free woman.

21:49Gloria Steinem:Yeah. Did you consider her a feminist?

21:51Danielle:Yeah. I don't know if I thought about it in those terms, and I don't know if she did either, but she was clearly trying to lead her own life by coming to New York.

22:04Gloria Steinem:Did the movie make you think about romance or love at all?

22:07Danielle:Not really, because that wasn't what it was about. She wasn't seeking engagement in marriage. She was trying to live a life.

22:16Gloria Steinem:If I was going to watch the movie for the first time, which I have to be honest with you, I only saw it for the first time last night,

22:22Danielle:what would it teach me about you? I think that in a period of time in which it wasn't so easy to be an independent woman, it was after World War II, I think people striving to make suburbs and families and had been more absent during the war. So she stood out as someone who was making her own life.

22:49Gloria Steinem:Were you excited when you got to have a cameo in First Wives Club later in life? Did it make you think of your dad and his love of film?

22:56Danielle:No. I don't know why I did it exactly.

22:58Gloria Steinem:Because you show up at the end, the final scene.

23:01Danielle:Yes. Yes, and it was because I knew people who were acting in it. But it's very nervous-making to feel you're in a movie scene, that everything you do is showing somehow.

23:12Gloria Steinem:Well, I also read that clothes used to give you anxiety, so I can't imagine you loving a film set and getting all dolled up.

23:19Danielle:It was a realistic movie, so we did not get that dolled up. I mean, we were not wearing somebody else's clothes, I don't think.

23:26Gloria Steinem:No, you looked like you. You had a very chic black suit and a nice blowout. You definitely looked like you. You wanted to be a dancer, and that's part of what got you out of Toledo. So you were always sort of into entertainment in some way. What made you pick up those tap shoes early on?

23:41Danielle:Probably Shirley Temple or seeing movies. And there was an adult black man who was her tap dancing partner. And I mean, she was one of the few young women in movies. So she seemed like she had her own life, I think. And movies were a big source of escape. As I was saying, my father's idea of escape and reward was emalted in a movie.

24:05Gloria Steinem:And then I was reading that you would help support your mother through tap dancing, too. Did it become something you felt like you had to do, or you always loved it?

24:13Danielle:No, I always loved it. And I don't know that I ever thought I was good enough to have a career. But where other students might have been playing basketball or something, I was going to tap dancing classes.

24:27Gloria Steinem:The other thing I want to bring up from that book before we move on to other questions is that you wrote that you had a lifetime ambition to run a diner one day. I did not know that about you.

24:39Danielle:Well, because with my parents and my sister, we were on the road going to Florida or California. We were always stopping in diners. Diners are very democratic places. Everybody is welcome in a diner, which is a great feeling. So I thought being able to have a diner by the side of the road would be a great life.

25:02Gloria Steinem:You get very specific. You say you wanted one with blue gingham curtains and bran muffins. And when you wrote that, you were not of the bran muffin age yet.

25:11Danielle:What did you love about bran muffins? Is there an age for bran muffins? I don't know. I just like them.

25:18Gloria Steinem:You love them to this day, too. Yeah. If you were going to open a diner, who would you name it after?

25:24Danielle:Diners aren't named after people. They're usually just disused dining cars from trains that are placed by the highway and somebody runs them. I mean, the appeal of them is that they welcome everybody and at all hours. So in the middle of the night, there are truck drivers. During the day, there are people going to school. It's just a very democratic, interesting place.

25:49Gloria Steinem:When you see everyone from different backgrounds and different industries together, I can tell you're smiling. What about that image makes you so happy?

25:58Danielle:Well, it's unlimited. You know, frequently in life, in college, people we know is somewhat limited, probably less than in the rest of life. People who work in offices, which I haven't done really, are limited. So a diner is infinitely democratic. And everywhere, I remember being in one in South Africa that was like that. It was an old train car in the middle of the city, and everybody went there.

26:23Gloria Steinem:I didn't know this about you. I mean, it's hard to take you out of this beautiful living room, but I think I'm going to have to take you to a diner one day. There's so many good ones in New York.

26:32Danielle:Yeah.

27:01Gloria Steinem:We'll be right back. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA, and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC registered advisor.

27:33Gloria Steinem:Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. You see it instantly. It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship and signature touches inspired by a Mountain West heritage. Distinctive styles created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape, feel good fits offering ease of movement and thoughtful details to elevate your look. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit coldwatercreek.com.

28:04Gloria Steinem:Shop the new spring collection at 20 % off$75 or more with code IHEART20. From coast to coast, unlock adventure at Red Lion Hotels by Sonesta, where restful sleep, friendly service, and local knowledge await. Whether for business or pleasure, spend less and make more of every trip. When you sign up for Sonesta Travel Pass, you'll get our best rates instantly. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock our best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now at Sonesta.com. Terms and conditions apply. Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter? Right? And the best part? They accept Discover.

28:45Gloria Steinem:Accept Discover? In a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer.

28:49Danielle:Oh, yeah, huh?

28:50Gloria Steinem:Discover's accepted where I like to shop. Come on, baby. Get with the times.

28:54Danielle:Right, so we shouldn't get the parachute pants?

28:58Gloria Steinem:These are making a comeback.

29:00Danielle:I think.

29:02Gloria Steinem:Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen Report. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. The message for everyone paying big wireless way too much.

29:14Danielle:Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just$15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird.

29:24Gloria Steinem:Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three-month plan, equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

29:44Gloria Steinem:Your dad was your movie buddy growing up. Do you think he would have gotten a kick out of seeing you on the big screen in First Wives Club and seeing you tap dancing with Barbara Walters at a benefit concert. Do you think he would have liked all that?

29:59Danielle:Yeah, probably. Yeah, because he was on the edges of show business himself because he had this summer dance pavilion and he had his two points of pride that he never wore a hat and he never had a job, right? So he was on the edges of show business.

30:14Gloria Steinem:Do you think that if social media existed that there would have been some amazing conversations that would have been caught on set or behind the scenes of any of these big moments of you on stage or in the films?

30:29Danielle:Well, they exist anyway. We don't need somebody to record them. They're part of our life. I'm glad we have an internet, especially globally, internationally. It's important that we know each other.

30:41Gloria Steinem:Can you say more about that? You're saying how important it is to live in the present is what I'm garnering from that statement.

30:46Danielle:Well, and also in the world. We're all on one globe hurtling through space. The boundaries of nations are totally made up. We try to communicate beyond language as best we can. So we are all passengers on spaceship Earth.

31:06Gloria Steinem:The idea that boundaries of countries are made up, it's so true. I've never thought about that. They're totally arbitrary, made up by people in buildings.

31:14Danielle:And made up by colonialism in some cases.

31:18Gloria Steinem:And before we started recording, we were talking about men. And you said that oftentimes we think of men as singular and women as a collective. And I'd never thought about that. It's so true. It seems so obvious. And having spent time with you, and if people watch your speeches, you give us these very obvious truths that for some reason are not obvious to everybody. Was that a skill that you had as a kid? Can you point back to it, or where did that come from?

31:48Danielle:I don't know that it's a skill. I mean, it's just describing the world. Men of all races tend to have a source of livelihood outside the home, more than women who frequently now also have jobs, but still more than men probably have a reality that's at home and raising children and so on.

32:09Gloria Steinem:It's just your view of the world that was so unique. You just saw it.

32:13Danielle:I don't know about that. I mean, I was just living a life. My sister, who was nine years old, or no longer with us, but she lived a very unusual life because she was a gemologist, which is an unusual profession. But then she married and had six children and had a household where she always was and so on. So she was drawn to that.

32:37Gloria Steinem:How did you feel about that choice?

32:39Danielle:Fine. No, I mean, you know, as long as it was what she wanted, which it was. And also I was grateful to her because she was often in earlier years looking after me.

32:50Gloria Steinem:I didn't know that.

32:51Danielle:Well, she was nine years older.

32:53Gloria Steinem:For some reason, I'd imagined you as little Gloria sort of looking after yourself and looking after everybody else.

32:59Danielle:Well, some of that was true because when she was 17 and went off to college, I was obviously way younger. Right. So we were separate from those years.

33:09Gloria Steinem:So I want to ask you about your glasses a little bit more. I can't even believe I'm holding them. These are so iconic. And I know you think that's ridiculous. But they became such a symbol for you. And I think for the women's movement, too. When did you first put these on?

33:24Danielle:Well, I started to need glasses because I was nearsighted when I was quite young. I don't know, 9, 10, 11, something like that. So I needed glasses. I tried to wear contact lenses, but it was too difficult. Yeah, they're annoying. Yeah. So I don't know. I must have seen other women, people, I don't know who, with glasses like these that kind of appeal to me. Right.

33:51Gloria Steinem:Well, I'm thinking it was Holly from Breakfast at Tiffany's, but then... Did she wear those glasses? I don't think so. Not these kind. A different sunglass. But then you were speaking. You were making all these public speeches, and you've said to me before that you felt as if they kind of put a shield between you and the audience because you were nervous speaking.

34:11Danielle:Yes, but I didn't keep them on while I was speaking.

34:14Gloria Steinem:You didn't?

34:15Danielle:No, because you don't want that kind of barrier between yourself and the people you're speaking to.

34:21Gloria Steinem:So what did they do for you?

34:22Danielle:Well, I'm nearsighted. I mean, you know, so... So they were truly utilitarian.

34:28Gloria Steinem:Yeah, right, right. Now I get why you don't understand why I'm making a big deal out of them. That makes a lot of sense.

34:35Danielle:I mean, they were bigger. I mean, most women's sunglasses were not like pilots' glasses like those. Right.

34:42Gloria Steinem:Well, just in so many of the iconic photographs of you, you are wearing those. It was kind of a style of the times, but it did signal to me that they meant something to you. I'm just not sure what.

34:52Danielle:Well, they started out being utilitarian. They were kind of a style just because they were bigger and somehow, I don't know what that means, but kind of defiant in some kind of way. But if I hadn't been nearsighted, I wouldn't have been wearing those.

35:09Gloria Steinem:We went all the way back to nearsighted. I got it. Okay. Well, I did read in that book, that 500-page book about self-esteem, that was very good. That you said that girl who was a little self-conscious and awkward put on the glasses. and you said you felt like a plump brunette from Toledo, too tall and too much, too pudding face. I'd never heard you describe yourself that way. Does that feel like that was such a long time ago?

35:34Danielle:Yeah, no, now, because I'm old, right? It does feel like a long time ago. And also, I'm okay with my life. I'm not assuming that whatever I'm doing now, eventually I will have to get married and have children, which went on for a long time, especially for those of us who, you know, were born influenced by the war and post-war.

35:58Gloria Steinem:That was hanging over your head?

36:00Danielle:Yeah, I mean, I assumed. And I remember when I went off to India after college, and my mother said to me, I can't remember exactly, but the idea was, could you go off to India because you'll fall in love with traveling and so on, and you won't feel you have to live in a certain way.

36:19Gloria Steinem:Okay, so you went after college, and I know you were struck by the women that you met there. What did you see that was so different that you hadn't seen in America?

36:28Danielle:Well, first of all, there was a national independence movement symbolized by Gandhi and independence from colonialism. So that was huge. Then also, it's one country, but it's 14 major languages, very diverse. And I started out living in women's college in Delhi. So, you know, I had that as a kind of a way into the diversity, the culture, besides then traveling around the country. A lot of us have the good luck of being introduced to the world by physical travel and not just for a vacation, but actually living someplace different.

37:11Gloria Steinem:And some of the women that you met there were sort of leading that movement, right?

37:16Danielle:Everybody was part of the independence movement because of Gandhi and independence from British rule.

37:23Gloria Steinem:So one of the things that I have been struck by getting to know you is that you really can deflect a compliment.

37:29Danielle:Well, I'm realistic at least.

37:32Gloria Steinem:Do you not like when people compliment you? Do you not believe them? Does it embarrass you? What is that?

37:39Danielle:Well, it depends on the situation. I don't think you can generalize exactly. I mean, when somebody compliments you about something you've actually done right, it's pure pleasure and gratification.

37:52Gloria Steinem:Right.

37:53Danielle:If they compliment you in order to get something from you, it's very different. I mean, so it depends.

38:00Gloria Steinem:Right. You can feel the difference, too. How do you feel when people embrace you in public? Are you a hugger? Are you a handshaker, a waver?

38:09Danielle:Well, it depends on do you want to hug this person? I mean, no, I'm certainly a hugger. I found you to be so warm. You really embrace people. I think shaking hands feels so kind of official. Not that there's anything wrong with it. There isn't. But friends seem more likely to hug.

38:28Gloria Steinem:Do you consider yourself a storyteller?

38:30Danielle:Well, I wouldn't describe myself that way because it sounds as if what you're telling is not true. So I think narrative is everything, probably, because that's the way our brains work.

38:44Gloria Steinem:How would you describe yourself?

38:45Danielle:I don't think I've ever had to describe myself.

38:48Gloria Steinem:So when you put those glasses on and you started really delving into the feminist movement, you wrote, I was rescued by feminism. How so?

38:58Danielle:Well, without feminism, I would have continued to be in a 1950s atmosphere in which women were supposed to get married, have children, and maybe have a job at, not a whole consuming job, live in a house in the suburbs. That was the post-war ideal.

39:19Gloria Steinem:So one of my mom's friends told me a story about how the women's movement changed her life in that exact way. She was married and thought she had to have children, and because of the movement, she ended up getting divorced, becoming the head of the Library Association, and had a whole different life. She's been married three times and has bought a house and had all these adventures. And when I share that with you, I can tell there's a joy. What is the joy when you hear those stories?

39:49Danielle:That she was able to express and to create a life of her own, what she wanted to create, that she wasn't told what to do.

39:59Gloria Steinem:And do you feel any type of gratification that all the work that you and your friends put into the movement helped unleash that?

40:09Danielle:No, I do, but the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, I mean, it's all one movement about the ability to be who you truly are.

40:50Gloria Steinem:We'll be right back. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokerage services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA, and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC registered advisor.

41:22Gloria Steinem:Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. You see it instantly. It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship and signature touches inspired by a Mountain West heritage. Distinctive styles created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape, feel good fits offering ease of movement and thoughtful details to elevate your look. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit coldwatercreek.com.

41:53Gloria Steinem:Shop the new spring collection at 20 % off$75 or more with code IHEART20. Travel smarter, not harder, at America's Best Value In by Sonesta. With convenient locations from coast to coast and value-packed comfort at every turn. And when you're a Sonesta Travel Pass member, staying at America's Best Value In means earning points toward free nights, upgrades, and more. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock their best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now at Sonesta.com. Terms and conditions apply.

42:29Danielle:Thy ticket, Lady Jennifer of Cooge.

42:32Gloria Steinem:Well, many thanks, good sir. Heareth my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Get it with the times. With the times? You're playing the lute. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right? Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen Report. Are you a fraud-paying American? It's a fact that one in four honest, hard-working, tax-paying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. With LifeLock Identity Theft Protection, though, if your identity is stolen, they fix it.

43:13Gloria Steinem:Guaranteed. and get you your money back. Last year, the IRS flagged over$16 billion in refunds for identity fraud. That's billions of dollars that could come from your salary, overtime, or second job. But this year, you don't need to stay a victim. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. And if your information does fall into the wrong hands, only LifeLock has U.S.-based restoration specialists who are backed by the Million Dollar Protection Package. Because this tax season, fraud-paying American is something no American should have to claim.

43:49Gloria Steinem:Visit lifelock.com slash iHeart and save up to 40 % your first year. That's 40 % off at lifelock.com slash iHeart. Terms apply.

44:04Danielle:What do you think about destiny? I don't think I believe in destiny. I don't know, of course, but I think we're more likely to create our own destiny.

44:14Gloria Steinem:So when I interview a lot of people who have been on big stages or built big companies, I find that a lot of people turn to the idea of destiny because they think, how in the world could this have been me out of the billions of people? When you were one of the faces and leaders of the women's movement, did you ever have those thoughts? Like, I can't believe this is my life.

44:37Danielle:No, because it was always an effort and it was always part of a big and diverse movement. It wasn't as if I didn't feel like I was the chairperson of some company or something.

44:52Gloria Steinem:Do you think in hindsight people misinterpret what the movement was like? Was it very different living it?

44:58Danielle:In the beginning especially, I think there was a lot of misunderstanding. I remember getting a call from a man, a friend, also an editor at Show Magazine, which was a big, beautiful arts magazine where we all worked to some extent or something. And he called me up and he said, Gloria, I didn't know you were a lesbian. Because he was just so convinced that everybody, right.

45:25Gloria Steinem:Well, you know, one of my favorite lines that you taught me is that I think it was Flo Kennedy who, you know, people would come heckle you guys when you were doing your speeches and they would wait the whole time, raise their hand, heckle you and say something about you being a lesbian. And then what would Flo say?

45:42Danielle:Are you my alternative? Yeah, I thought that was brilliant because it didn't say anything. And it made the audience laugh.

45:49Gloria Steinem:Well, you really harnessed comedy. Was that intentional?

45:52Danielle:Well, I loved That Was the Week That Was, which was the show I was working for. I was doing a department, which just meant that I was reading vast numbers of global newspapers and finding peculiar items to list.

46:08Gloria Steinem:You must have loved that job.

46:10Danielle:Yeah, it was fun.

46:11Gloria Steinem:I know how much you love Flo. You talk about her, the way you write about her. I can tell how much you love her. There's this quote that you loved. She said, the purpose of ass kicking is not that your ass gets kicked at the right time or for the right reasons. It's to keep your ass sensitive. I don't even know what that means. Why did you love that quote? Well, you know what it means, right? The purpose of ass kicking is not. No, I don't understand it. Tell me.

46:37Danielle:Well, it's not that somebody is criticizing you or your group or something in an accurate way, but that it keeps you open to input, criticism, praise, whatever it is, the world around you. So you don't get insulated.

46:56Gloria Steinem:Interesting.

46:56Danielle:No, Flo was wonderful. She was a pioneer lawyer when very few women, much less black women, were lawyers. She was distinctive looking with her Aussie hat and her job purse and so on. we were speaking partners for quite a while, as I was with Dorothy Pittman Hughes, because I mean, I was afraid I didn't want to speak by myself. And also, I thought it misrepresented the women's movement to have one white woman speaking or one anybody, you know, so to have two diverse women seemed much better.

47:35Gloria Steinem:What did black women teach you about feminism?

47:37Danielle:Just that it's for everybody. It's for all women and men too. I mean, it's just about equality.

47:45Gloria Steinem:Did Flo or Dorothy help you find your voice?

47:47Danielle:Yes, I don't think I would have gone out to speak without them all by myself.

47:52Gloria Steinem:When did that start to absolve? The connotation that to be a part of the women's movement must mean that you were a lesbian. Because I remember even as a kid, that lingered in my childhood. I guess the idea of women, I'm not sure why, but women choosing the company of other women was unusual enough unless you were all housewives taking care

48:19Danielle:of children or doing something acceptable.

48:21Gloria Steinem:You seem to have an aversion to being considered a mother to the movement. I've read that you'd rather be considered a sister to it. Why?

48:30Danielle:Well, first of all, a movement doesn't have a mother. I mean, even in more obvious things like, I mean, Gandhi was not the only leader of India. A movement is composed of countless diverse people who have a kind of shared hope for some greater equality.

48:53Gloria Steinem:Was that part of the impetus of the talking circle? Because I can tell you one of the things I've noticed from being there is that there is no hierarchy. Whether you're a celebrity or not, there's no hierarchy. There's no hierarchy in who's speaking. It's not a pyramid. It is a circle. Was that idea born from that?

49:11Danielle:I don't think we invented talking circles. I mean, I think they always were a feature of Native American culture. I remember inviting Wilma Mankiller, who was the chief of the Cherokee Nation, to a talking circle here in this living room, sitting around. And as we were going around, she said, well, when we do this, we have a symbol that we pass. So as each person speaks, they hold this. I mean, obviously, we'd reinvented the wheel.

49:40Gloria Steinem:Right.

49:40Danielle:You know, it had always been there.

49:42Gloria Steinem:Do you like the idea of a symbol, like a talking stick or something?

49:45Danielle:Well, it helps keep the circle democratic. You may not need it, but it does point out that everybody should have a turn holding whatever it is.

49:57Gloria Steinem:Can you talk to me about your deep listening skills?

50:00Danielle:No, I don't know.

50:02Gloria Steinem:I have no idea.

50:04Danielle:But why would one want to? I mean, you don't learn while you're talking.

50:09Gloria Steinem:I know, but so many people don't listen actively the way you do. I notice it in talking circles. You're really actively listening. And sometimes they're long, Gloria. Sometimes I want to tune out if somebody's really drawing on and you are listening.

50:22Danielle:You may decide, okay, I'm not learning anything. I mean, that may happen. But otherwise, why would we turn down a chance to learn?

50:30Gloria Steinem:I've always felt like I could learn something from everybody. Do you feel that way?

50:34Danielle:I'm not sure I do. I mean, I don't know. There are probably big differences in how much we think we might learn.

50:41Gloria Steinem:What do you mean?

50:42Danielle:I think that I'm not sure I could learn from Trump.

50:45Gloria Steinem:That's fair. You are such a nonjudgmental person, but you have real disdain for people who wield power in a way that you don't agree with.

50:56Danielle:Well, they don't listen, you know, and I don't think Trump is known as a great listener.

51:01Gloria Steinem:He's definitely not. That's not what he's known for. Do you consider yourself to be a good caretaker?

51:08Danielle:Yes, I was a caretaker for my mother because we were living alone and I was looking after her from the time I was, I don't know what, in the sixth grade, maybe into high school. So our roles were reversed since she was the mother and I was the child and I was looking after her. And I think that happens to lots of people in their early years.

51:34Gloria Steinem:I know that you don't consider yourself the mother of a movement.

51:38Danielle:No, of course not. Movements, I don't think, have mothers.

51:41Gloria Steinem:But you have taken care of thousands of women in your lifetime.

51:45Danielle:Yeah, but that's more like sisters, I would say. They're looking after each other.

51:50Gloria Steinem:Regardless of age?

51:52Danielle:Yeah, I think so.

51:53Gloria Steinem:What do you get from being with women that are younger than you?

51:58Danielle:Well, I learn about, you know, what plays I should see, what music is good now. what novels, what's going on politically. I mean, just we learn from difference, not sameness. So difference is a gift.

52:12Gloria Steinem:My grandfather was a professor. He was such a reader and he knew so much. And I could tell that as he started to age, he started to be less interested in what people had to say because he kind of knew what they were going to say or he had read about it. Do you feel that at all or are you still lit up by people?

52:31Danielle:I think it depends on the person. I mean, there's such a big variety coming at you. So some more than others. And I guess a good relationship is one in which you pass back and forth between who is the listener and who is the teacher.

52:48Gloria Steinem:There's something about the movement that I've always wondered because you've said you're accidentally identifiable by a movement. When did it become intentional?

52:57Danielle:It never really was intentional. I mean, I just realized because walking around the street, somebody would, you know, come up and say hello or tell me something or something. And I understood that it was because of the women's movement or whatever activity, political campaign, something.

53:16Gloria Steinem:I just have a hard time believing that it was accidental after 50 years. Like, I understand at the beginning, maybe, but you've dedicated your life to it.

53:24Danielle:Because it's a bunch of different people. I mean, I could go out in the street and there's somebody who's 12 who's not going to recognize me and somebody who's 20 who's not, but somebody who's older. I mean, it's a little experience.

53:38Gloria Steinem:But the impact of your work remains. That 12-year-old can have a credit card because of you.

53:43Danielle:Well, but that 12-year-old maybe doesn't know it. It doesn't mean she's going to come up to me in the street and say, thank you for my credit card.

53:49Gloria Steinem:Do you remember when you got a credit card, your first credit card?

53:52Danielle:I do, because it was very difficult because I didn't have a proper job. So I think I had to have a couple of people guaranteeing me, right?

54:02Gloria Steinem:A co-signer. Do you remember your first purchase?

54:04Danielle:Mostly I remember being on a march to the Mexican border with farm workers were marching on both sides of the border to meet at the border and have a political rally and so on. And I had kind of managed to charge all of our motel charges on my credit card, which meant when I came home, that whatever the company was came and took it away. Really? Yeah, because I had way overcharged.

54:37Gloria Steinem:First of all, that's so you. Second of all, I think you hit on something that's interesting, because I think that your fame led people to believe that you were rolling in the dough, and they didn't realize how hard you were still working in all of these odd jobs, freelancing, all the speaking. I can't imagine.

54:58Danielle:You know, I don't think so, because I think that I and Barbara Nissam and all my friends, you know, we were all clearly independent working women. I think it was evident that we hadn't inherited a family fortune.

55:12Gloria Steinem:That's interesting. I think some people may misinterpret that.

55:16Danielle:I haven't had that experience, but maybe.

55:19Gloria Steinem:What do you consider your impact to be in the women's movement? If you won't take credit for any of the things, what was your impact?

55:27Danielle:I do take credit. I mean, I hope that I have had an impact by listening to women and taking women seriously in a culture that really had trained us to take men more seriously than women or to attribute women's seriousness to their attachment to a man or to their wifehood or motherhood or something. I hope and believe we help to see women as unique individuals.

56:01Gloria Steinem:I really love when you tell stories about your days on the road as an adult. In your book, My Life on the Road, it seems like you felt very comfortable there, maybe because of your childhood. You had gotten used to it. Did you feel like you were writing to make sense of everything that was going on?

56:19Danielle:No, because, I mean, I wasn't experiencing everything. I was just writing about what I did experience. And that included roadside diners and waitresses and truck drivers who were sitting at the counter. And also in other countries. I remember traveling in Eritrea on a road that was the same road that truck drivers used for commerce and so on. And stopping. And it's kind of a universal culture of truck stops, you know, which are quite democratic. Lots of different people stop there.

56:54Gloria Steinem:Do you remember writing the dedication to My Life on the Road? Do you know where you were when you thought about writing it?

57:01Danielle:No, and I'm not sure I remember the dedication either.

57:04Gloria Steinem:Can I show it to you? It's my single favorite dedication of all time. And I've read a lot of books.

57:09Danielle:And I'm glad regardless of what it is.

57:11Gloria Steinem:Do you want your glasses?

57:12Danielle:No, it's okay. Oh, yes, right. I know I was thinking about this dedication to Dr. Sharp, who made an abortion, a safe abortion, possible for me, and I'm sure for others, too, because there is now a television series about that period in London. So it reminds you of that very much.

57:36Gloria Steinem:Would you read it to me?

57:37Danielle:This book is dedicated to Dr. John Sharp of London, who in 1957, a decade before physicians in England could legally perform an abortion for any reason other than the health of the woman, took the considerable risk of referring for an abortion a 22-year-old American on her way to India. Knowing only that she had broken an engagement at home to seek an unknown fate, he said, You must promise me two things. First, you will not tell anyone my name. Second, you will do what you want to do with your life. Dear Dr. Sharp, I believe you who knew the law was unjust would not mind if I say this so long after your death.

58:27Danielle:I've done the best I could with my life. This book is for you. The television series that's now on about the 60s in London was about that period when abortion was not illegal but possible under some circumstances. It reminds me.

58:46Gloria Steinem:Is that The Glorias or is it a different show?

58:49Danielle:No. What's it called? I should remember what the show is called.

58:53Gloria Steinem:That's okay. We don't need the name. That's interesting, though.

58:55Danielle:Right.

58:55Gloria Steinem:So when I was, I think, 31, I had an abortion and I was so scared. And I read that dedication.

59:05Danielle:You were scared because it was illegal or because?

59:08Gloria Steinem:No, it was legal. I just thought I want kids in the future. And I didn't know what the health implications were. And I thought, what if the doctor does it wrong? And what if this ruins my chance to have children? and I read your book, Dedication, over again because I had remembered it, having read it right after college. And I thought, okay, she did it. I'm going to be okay. Do you think that you recognize how many women like me have read that and thought, okay, Gloria did it. I'm going to be okay.

59:38Danielle:Well, I think that's the purpose of sharing our experiences, whether we're sitting at the kitchen table or we're writing a book or whatever it is, we're teaching and learning in that way. That's the gift of your writing, too.

1:00:24Gloria Steinem:Thank you. you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by public investing. Brokerage services by open to the public investing, Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by public advisors, LLC, SEC registered advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.

1:00:56Gloria Steinem:Complete Disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. You see it instantly. It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship and signature touches inspired by a mountain-west heritage. Distinctive styles created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape, feel-good fits offering ease of movement, and thoughtful details to elevate your look. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit coldwatercreek.com. Shop the new spring collection at 20 % off$75 or more with code IHEART20. Find home wherever you roam at Sonesta ES and Simply Suites.

1:01:33Gloria Steinem:Stretch out and enjoy home-like amenities for however long you need. And when you're a Sonesta Travel Pass member, staying at Sonesta ES and Simply Suites means earning points toward free nights, upgrades, and more. Go to sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock their best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, roam tomorrow. Join now at Sonesta.com. Terms and conditions apply. Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter? Right? And the best part? They accept Discover. Accept Discover? In a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer.

1:02:07Danielle:Oh, yeah, huh.

1:02:08Gloria Steinem:Discover's accepted where I like to shop. Come on, baby, get with the times.

1:02:13Danielle:Right, so we shouldn't get the parachute pants?

1:02:16Gloria Steinem:These are making a comeback.

1:02:19Danielle:I think.

1:02:20Gloria Steinem:Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen Report. When your schedule sounds like this.

1:02:34Danielle:Are you kidding me? An oil change is the last thing you have time for. So drive into Take 5 and let our techs change your oil, check your tires, top off your fluids and have you back on the road pit stop fast. All while you stay in your car. No putting your entire schedule on hold. No upsells, no problem. so you can get back to your to-do list or not. Find your nearest shop at Take5.com. Take 5, the stay in your car 10-minute oil change.

1:03:02Gloria Steinem:I want to talk to you about questions. Do you consider questions a form of protest?

1:03:07Danielle:Well, they can be, certainly, because you are asking for authority, challenging authority, exploring a limited reality. I mean, it depends on the why of it, but questions are very important because they expand our knowledge.

1:03:26Gloria Steinem:And I feel like you've been questioning the status quo your whole life. Do you think that sometimes questions can be more powerful than a statement?

1:03:34Danielle:Yes, because questions assume that there is another person. A statement is a one-person an operation. A question assumes an audience or a partner or someone else.

1:03:49Gloria Steinem:I like that. I've never thought about assuming a person. I thought about it as, on the other hand, like another idea, but not another person. That's very interesting. Do you think that men need feminism more than women do right now?

1:04:02Danielle:It depends on which man. I don't think we can generalize.

1:04:06Gloria Steinem:Well, talk to me about the male isolation or the masculinity crisis that we're in, that people deem that we're in? What do you think about it?

1:04:16Danielle:I haven't noticed where you have a masculinity crisis. I mean, for instance, just as one example, we've never had a female president. That's a crisis of masculinity in a different way. Right.

1:04:30Gloria Steinem:You're right. That's a good point. I actually have questions for you about that. You've had the benefit of seeing multiple women run for president in your lifetime, and you spent time with many of the former candidates, what characteristics did you think that they all had in common?

1:04:45Danielle:Well, there weren't that many. I mean, there was Hillary Clinton. Kamala. Shirley Chisholm, I mean, I was three. Were there more? I can't remember. No.

1:04:56Gloria Steinem:I mean, there were more women that ran, but not as candidates.

1:04:59Danielle:I think they had a vision called democracy. I mean, why are we the only or one of the few democracies that's never had a female chief of state? It makes no sense.

1:05:10Gloria Steinem:It bothers you?

1:05:12Danielle:Well, it's counter to the definition of democracy.

1:05:16Gloria Steinem:I didn't know that you wrote a speech for Shirley Chisholm in 1972, and you said it was one of the best that you wrote. Why was it one of the best?

1:05:24Danielle:Well, she herself was a symbol of a democracy yet to come. And she was traveling and speaking, you know, at the National Women's Political Caucus and otherwise on the road. So I have no idea if it was one of the best I wrote or not, but I was certainly proud to contribute to her campaign.

1:05:47Gloria Steinem:When you think back to Shirley's campaign, and then we think about the most recent campaign that Kamala ran, what stands out to you about where the country's at then versus now?

1:05:59Danielle:Well, I think that Shirley Chisholm was only on the ballot in 14 states, I think. We'd have to check, but I don't think it was very many states. So that we thought of Kamala Harris as a more universal, or for that matter, of Hillary Clinton as a more universal candidate is a step forward.

1:06:22Gloria Steinem:Out of all of the women that you have met and worked with and campaigned for, what woman has been the most deserving and qualified to be president?

1:06:31Danielle:Well, I'm not sure I know that because I don't know everybody. But when you say that, I think about Bella Abzug because she had the most worldwide view of democracy with the fewest divisions or restrictions, I think. I mean, if you walked in the street with Bella in Manhattan, truck drivers would be hanging out of the truck cab saying, give him hell, Bella. And so, you know, I mean, she had a universal appeal that went beyond class and beyond gender, really.

1:07:08Gloria Steinem:That must have been wonderful to be around.

1:07:10Danielle:Yes. No, it was.

1:07:12Gloria Steinem:Did you take anything that you learned from her to implement in your life when you were on the road and doing these speeches?

1:07:19Danielle:She probably encouraged all of us to go out in public and talk because she was so fearless about it. I didn't take the habit of wearing hats. That was her mark, wearing a hat.

1:07:31Gloria Steinem:I know. You had your glasses. We didn't need hats. And you had your belt. You loved belts, huh?

1:07:38Danielle:Yeah, I guess so. I don't know why exactly. I think because I had acquired a couple of Indian concha belts.

1:07:45Gloria Steinem:I was wondering if it had anything to do with Wonder Woman, because I know that you really liked that character. Her characteristic were bracelets, that she bounced bullets off bracelets.

1:07:56Danielle:So not so much a belt, I don't think.

1:07:58Gloria Steinem:Well, it made me think that maybe the belt was your version. I was shocked to learn that you really helped inspire and advocate for this version of Wonder Woman that we know today. There's an article that says you literally saved her.

1:08:12Danielle:Well, only because we put her on the cover of Ms. Magazine. I mean, she, I think DC Comics or whatever company owned her, they'd taken away all her magical powers. She was no longer living on Paradise Island and she didn't have bracelets and she bounced bullets. You know, they had turned her into a car hop and we objected to them and we put her on the cover of this magazine in her original self. And they said, all right, OK, now, you know, she has her bracelets back. She has her magic lasso. She has, you know, well, now you leave us alone.

1:08:51Gloria Steinem:You know, did you see yourself in her the way you saw yourself in Holly go lightly at all?

1:08:57Danielle:No, I didn't see myself as Wonder Woman. I mean, you can't be somebody with magical bracelets and a lasso. And so, no. You just liked what she stood for. Yeah. Superheroes for both boys and girls were very important cultural figures.

1:09:14Gloria Steinem:It's true. Are you a DC Comics or a Marvel Comics woman?

1:09:18Danielle:I have no idea because I don't know what they do.

1:09:21Gloria Steinem:I actually don't know either. Yeah. So we talked about a lot of your female friends today, but I don't know that I've asked you about female friendship. What has female friendship meant to you in your life?

1:09:35Danielle:I mean, some men are my community too, but it's mostly women because we share experiences, we share hopes for making change, we share some feelings of being endangered. We just share a great deal. And across national boundaries. My women friends in India, who are still my friends, shared many things too.

1:10:01Gloria Steinem:Can I ask you about the loves of your life?

1:10:04Danielle:Yeah, I guess so.

1:10:05Gloria Steinem:You don't have to answer anything that you don't want to answer.

1:10:08Danielle:No, it's okay. I guess for a long time I assumed I had to have children. I thought everybody had to. So I had a series of relationships that continue to matter. And I think it's one of the most deep, profound ways we learn to empathize. We learn about different worlds because we're in love with somebody who's part of a different world.

1:10:31Gloria Steinem:Yeah, I agree with you. I've heard you say that romance is a form of curiosity. And I'm curious who made you the most curious.

1:10:40Danielle:I think it's a shared, because when you fall in love with somebody, you're entering into their world. and you're learning about their world. It may just have been accidental that I guess most of the few men I've been in love with were African-American men. So I'm sure I learned more than I would have without them.

1:11:08Gloria Steinem:A lot of them that I've asked you about seem to have a real care for the world the way you did, whether it was for civil rights or elsewhere. They wanted to make an impact.

1:11:18Danielle:Yes. Not that there were that many, but anyway, they were all engaged in some form of trying to make social change, right?

1:11:27Gloria Steinem:Has a man ever given you the ick? What is that? There's this thing that I think Gen Z would coin called the ick. And it's, you could be on a date with somebody and it's going well. And then you look down and his toenails are grown out and you're like, ick. Oh. Can't date him anymore.

1:11:48Danielle:No, I don't think so.

1:11:51Gloria Steinem:Okay, I like that. What's the most romantic thing anybody's done for you? That's an interesting question.

1:11:57Danielle:I'm not coming up with a specific evening exactly, but I think any way in which this person you're in love with recognizes you as a unique individual and supplies something, a play, a book, a movie.

1:12:15Gloria Steinem:So feeling really seen. Do you think that you sought after kind men because your dad was so kind?

1:12:21Danielle:Well, at least I knew there were kind men. I mean, I think it's more difficult for women who have an example of a cruel father and may take more time to recognize that's not the only reality.

1:12:37Gloria Steinem:Do you remember being in a relationship and thinking, oh, this person is really teaching me about love?

1:12:43Danielle:Not quite that general, I don't think.

1:12:46Gloria Steinem:It was more an example from your parents? Or how did you learn how to love?

1:12:50Danielle:I think we know from the beginning. I mean, I loved my dog, cat, rabbit, parents, sister.

1:12:59Gloria Steinem:Yeah, it was instinctual for you?

1:13:00Danielle:Yeah, I think it is for us, right?

1:13:03Gloria Steinem:I could point to a few boyfriends who have taught me how to love better. And sometimes it was bad actions. Sometimes it was beautiful actions. Sort of just like how some of my female friends have taught me how to be a better friend.

1:13:14Danielle:Yeah. Yeah.

1:13:15Gloria Steinem:That's not been your experience. Maybe.

1:13:16Danielle:I mean, I'm not sure that's true because I haven't been in a long-term marriage, for instance. So we certainly continued to care about each other, whether we were together or not.

1:13:29Gloria Steinem:You were married for three years. Yeah, but the only reason that we got legally married is that he had entered this country on a visa because his son was a minor and he was about to be deported. And you felt comfortable with being married at that point, or did it make you nervous about what it would do to your public image?

1:13:52Danielle:No, it had a purpose. It had a purpose, right. Okay.

1:13:55Gloria Steinem:You know, all of this makes sense to me because you've said that the greatest love of your life is possibility. I really think that's so beautiful. You said you fall in love with possibilities. When was the last time that you were in love, and what was the possibility or the potential that you fell for?

1:14:11Danielle:In love with a person or in love with an idea? Both. The possibility of what something could be. The last time I was in love was more with a person. It was more about keeping him from being sent home to South Africa. It was about his grown-up children who I cared about. But I've also been in love with women friends, not in a sexual way, but in a familial way with Wilma Mankiller.

1:14:41Gloria Steinem:I actually really want to ask you about that because there's this new movie called Eternity, and it's about a woman who has to choose between the two loves of her life. She dies, she goes to heaven, and I know that you've had a few loves of your life, some female friends and some men that you really loved. So I am curious, I'm going to ask you a silly question. If you were to go into the afterlife and have to choose a partner to spend eternity with, who would it be?

1:15:07Danielle:I'm not sure because it's such an artificial, situation, so it's probably more than one. But Wilma Mankiller comes to mind because she represented not just current culture, but ancient culture as well.

1:15:22Gloria Steinem:I can't believe her real last name is Mankiller. Well, as she pointed out when people asked her about it, that it was a translation of a title

1:15:32Danielle:for someone who guarded the tribe. And if they asked her in a nice way, she would explain that. And if they asked her in an unnice way, she would say, I earned it. I love that.

1:16:09Gloria Steinem:free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20 % year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by public investing. Brokered services by open to the public investing, Inc.

1:16:40Gloria Steinem:Member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by public advisors, LLC, SEC registered advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. You see it instantly. It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship and signature touches inspired by a Mountain West heritage. Distinctive styles created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape, feel-good fits offering ease of movement, and thoughtful details to elevate your look.

1:17:10Gloria Steinem:For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit coldwatercreek.com. Shop the new spring collection at 20 % off$75 or more with code IHEART20. Travel smarter, not harder, at America's Best Value Inn by Sinesta. With convenient locations from coast to coast, and value-packed comfort at every turn. And when you're a Sonesta Travel Pass member, staying at America's Best Value Inn means earning points toward free nights, upgrades, and more. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock their best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, roam tomorrow. Join now at Sonesta.com. Terms and conditions apply.

1:17:52Gloria Steinem:Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter? Right? And the best part? They accept Discover. Accept Discover? In a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer.

1:18:02Danielle:Oh, yeah, huh.

1:18:03Gloria Steinem:Discover's accepted where I like to shop. Come on, baby, get with the times.

1:18:08Danielle:Right, so we shouldn't get the parachute pants?

1:18:11Gloria Steinem:These are making a comeback.

1:18:14Danielle:I think.

1:18:15Gloria Steinem:Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen Report. When your schedule sounds like this.

1:18:29Danielle:Are you kidding me? An oil change is the last thing you have time for. So drive into Take 5 and let our techs change your oil, check your tires, top off your fluids, and have you back on the road pit stop fast. All while you stay in your car. No putting your entire schedule on hold. No upsells, no problem. So you can get back to your to-do list. Or not. Find your nearest shop at Take5.com. Take 5. The stay in your car 10-minute oil change.

1:18:58Gloria Steinem:I also love talking to you about modern dating. I think you have the funniest opinions. They're so real. You really give me real talk. What is a dating trend from your time dating that you think people should bring back?

1:19:12Danielle:Well, I'm not sure what exists now. I mean, maybe then we were more likely to go steady, so it was a kind of practice for marriage, I suppose. Right.

1:19:22Gloria Steinem:Did you ever care about the title? Though you don't strike me as somebody who cared about being somebody's girlfriend. You just wanted to have a partner.

1:19:30Danielle:Well, that's not a title.

1:19:31Gloria Steinem:What do you mean?

1:19:32Danielle:Doesn't mean anything. You're somebody's girlfriend. If anything, it's a comment on him.

1:19:37Gloria Steinem:Say more. What does it say about him?

1:19:39Danielle:Well, whoever that woman is says something about him, about what his choices are.

1:19:46Gloria Steinem:Interesting. Reese Witherspoon just said something very similar that I loved. I'd never heard that before. What was your best dating decade? When did you have the most fun dating, Gloria?

1:19:57Danielle:It was a series of going steady. I mean, it wasn't like a period of time in which I was dating a lot of different people.

1:20:06Gloria Steinem:They were chunks of relationships. Yeah. Chunks of yours. Do you hate me right now for asking you about your love life?

1:20:12Danielle:No, no. It's just that I don't feel like I fit into what you're asking, but I'll try.

1:20:18Gloria Steinem:I don't have any expectations. I'm just so curious. I like hearing your thoughts on relationships because I think your thoughts have no bounds.

1:20:27Danielle:Well, in retrospect, only in retrospect, I realized that most of the few men I've felt close to were of a different race. And I think that that maybe helped them empathize with women who were striving to fit into a culture that did not always welcome them.

1:20:50Gloria Steinem:That's interesting. You enjoyed learning about the differences between people.

1:20:54Danielle:Well, it was just that they seemed more universalist people.

1:20:58Gloria Steinem:Can we talk about current day feminism? How do you feel about recent history? Does it give you deja vu at all?

1:21:08Danielle:I don't think so. But I mean, what I'm seeing is limited. I don't know. But I think in the past, the ideas of feminism were unusual enough so that there were more likely to be groups, whether it was the National Women's Political Caucus or now it seems more generalized. So people, women in offices, women in factories.

1:21:35Gloria Steinem:Has the world developed in a way that you feel excited about or are you frustrated about where feminism stands?

1:21:43Danielle:I certainly feel frustrated that we have an asshole in the White House. I mean, terrible president. We in New York who know him are, I think, 96 % against Trump. That's a big stat. I mean, Nixon and Reagan were not wonderful, but they seemed a little bit more representative.

1:22:02Gloria Steinem:You say if you aren't a feminist, it's like only having one eye open. You need to have both open to solve any problem. What I think is interesting is we're probably in the most woke eye open period ever. But I'm wondering if you would also say that we're a little blind.

1:22:18Danielle:I think we are still in a period in which, say, women are raising children more than men. And that means that women as a generality are probably more aware of the world in certain ways than men in general, although it's dangerous to make that kind of generalization.

1:22:42Gloria Steinem:Do you think about what the fourth wave of feminism looks like or feels like?

1:22:46Danielle:No, I don't think in waves.

1:22:48Gloria Steinem:How do you think?

1:22:49Danielle:Just, we're sitting here, you and I.

1:22:53Gloria Steinem:Just chatting. Books, movies, political candidates. One of the reasons I love coming over here is my childhood was spent sitting in my grandparents' living room talking about nothing for hours.

1:23:07Danielle:What do you mean nothing?

1:23:08Gloria Steinem:We would talk about politics and ideas. Well, that's not nothing. But we would also talk about absolutely nothing. Like we would talk about pizza and the weather and it was just about being together. And I would sometimes have breakfast with Larry King and his friends and it felt very similar. And I haven't had that feeling until I came here and have spent time with you and Jill and Amy. What do you get from sitting in your office space? Because people come visit you all the time. You have so many visitors and just chatting.

1:23:39Danielle:Well, we usually have some shared enterprise, something that we're trying to do or hoping to do, or some political campaign or something. It varies. It varies, right? How have you felt about the people that come into your life and ask you for things? I don't think I can generalize. It depends on who the person is and what the thing is. Because it's an opportunity to help, which is good.

1:24:08Gloria Steinem:I'll tell you why I'm asking. My favorite quote ever, I think, is Shirley Chisholm's quote that service is the rent you pay for a room on this earth. I try to live by it. Say it again. Service is the rent you pay for a room on this earth.

1:24:20Danielle:Oh.

1:24:21Gloria Steinem:And I really try to live by that. And I sometimes feel overwhelmed trying to be of service and live my life. I can't even imagine how you feel.

1:24:33Danielle:Service also means people are of service to you. It's not a one-way street.

1:24:38Gloria Steinem:So you feel like you've been able to maintain your personhood and your space amongst all the requests always.

1:24:44Danielle:Yeah. I mean, I think I'm lucky to have an apartment, for instance, which is very helpful to have a space that you live in that belongs to you. Right. Right.

1:24:53Gloria Steinem:And you hide out. I know you love your bedroom.

1:24:55Danielle:I've been here for a long time. Yeah. That makes sense.

1:24:59Gloria Steinem:What do you think about influencer culture? Is it a version of modern organizing?

1:25:03Danielle:I'm not sure. I mean, if it just means that you have an online presence that's influential, right?

1:25:10Gloria Steinem:Yeah.

1:25:11Danielle:But it makes me nervous that it's measured in terms of online contacts. Is that the measure of it?

1:25:18Gloria Steinem:Right. Number of followers.

1:25:20Danielle:Yeah. Which doesn't seem like a good measure. It does connect people, though, in a way. Yeah. But what does follower mean? I mean, Hitler had a lot of followers. Sort of value-free. I mean, it doesn't have content. And it also seems like it's constructed in order to be saleable.

1:25:39Gloria Steinem:Oh, interesting.

1:25:40Danielle:You know, because somebody with a lot of followers then can get some commercial good out of it.

1:25:45Gloria Steinem:I don't know if you remember, I made you take the value bridge test, Susie Welch's value bridge, and it had the 16 values. It's belovedness and luminance and every question it would ask you about money. You would look at me and you would side eye and you say, money is so boring.

1:26:02Danielle:Right. Money is neutral. It depends what its impact is.

1:26:07Gloria Steinem:I think you meant that, and it really made me laugh. How would you define your sense of humor? Well, I think laughter is a very important part of culture.

1:26:18Danielle:In Native American culture, there is a god of laughter who is neither male nor female, but just present. So laughter, usually, not always, is value-free.

1:26:31Gloria Steinem:Do you find it to be true, the old adage, that the best things in life are free?

1:26:36Danielle:I don't know. I mean, you know, it's not free that I have an apartment.

1:26:41Gloria Steinem:That's true, and you love this place.

1:26:42Danielle:I don't know, right.

1:26:44Gloria Steinem:That's true. It is Women's History Month, and we are sitting in your living room where you have invited over women from almost every corner of the world. They've sat in the exact chair I'm sitting in. There are so many photos and knickknacks here. Are there any women that you haven't had in this space that you would have loved to have spoken with?

1:27:08Danielle:Oh, I'm sure there are a lot. And there's some I've kind of lost because I lived in India and had such a deep connection there, but I don't see them, and not all of them are still alive, actually. It's kind of happenstance. I mean, we're sailing through life as through the ocean, And so who we meet and see is unpredictable. You made me think about your work as a journalist, because as you shared earlier, I asked you

1:27:38Gloria Steinem:if you were writing to figure out what your experiences meant. And you said, no, I was chronicling what actually happened.

1:27:44Danielle:What keeps you so enrolled in hope? Because as we keep saying, hope is a form of planning. If you don't have a hope for something, it's very unlikely to happen. It may not happen anyway, but it's more likely to happen if you have hope for it.

1:28:00Gloria Steinem:That is the most spiritual thing I've ever heard you say. How do you feel right now? What is it like to be you right now?

1:28:08Danielle:I'm very grateful to have this apartment, though I have a safe space. I have friends and longtime associates that come and go. I am well aware that I'm not going to live forever. I mean, you know, you can't deny that. Though it's not like I'm conscious of feeling I'm about to disappear or I'm not. I feel lucky, you know, to be in a city I love, with friends I love, and a life that isn't rich but is kind of moderately secure.

1:28:50Gloria Steinem:What do I have to look forward to at 92?

1:28:53Danielle:whatever the fuck you want.

1:28:58Gloria Steinem:That's an amazing answer. This is sort of a hard question, and if you don't want to talk about it, it's okay. I'm curious what the most pain you have ever been in that was not physical. What was the hardest decade?

1:29:12Danielle:It was probably when I was growing up looking after my mother, because being a small person looking after a big person is difficult for obvious reasons. And also her life was sad as it should not have been because she should have had more of what she wanted in life and was able to express as a journalist. I think that was probably the most difficult part.

1:29:39Gloria Steinem:It's so interesting because you've actually been through so much in your adult life. You've survived breast cancer. You had several loves of your life pass away. You have dealt with tons of people heckling you and saying untruths. And still that remains to be the toughest time.

1:29:58Danielle:Well, I think there's no inequality like childhood to adult inequality because you may be disempowered in almost every way. Do you think you ever recovered from it? I mean, I certainly have recovered in the sense of living a life I wanted to live. In retrospect, I probably didn't want to be, again, responsible for someone else's life by having children.

1:30:24Gloria Steinem:But you were okay being responsible for yours, that you felt okay with. You say the primary thing is not that others know who you are, but who they are. Again, just to bring it back to the very beginning, that is such an obvious truth that I would have never thought of.

1:30:38Danielle:Wait a minute, but who they are? I don't know that I know what I meant by that.

1:30:43Gloria Steinem:Say it again. So I think it was in the context of little girls coming up to you or other women coming up to you.

1:30:49Danielle:Oh, I see.

1:30:50Gloria Steinem:And you said it's not important that they know who I am. It's important that they know who they are.

1:30:54Danielle:Yeah, I see. I see, right. You know, in a world where we're constantly being sold our own identity back to us through algorithms and aesthetics,

1:31:04Gloria Steinem:what do you think is the biggest obstacle to a woman truly knowing who she is today?

1:31:10Danielle:Well, it's probably the tyranny of expectations of the people around her that they're expecting her to be someone different from who she really is.

1:31:22Gloria Steinem:It's very hard as a woman to not live into those expectations.

1:31:26Danielle:Yeah, I think we're trying to live authentically and trying to get beyond that.

1:31:30Gloria Steinem:Do you remember having inner turmoil about that? Like you so vehemently did not want to be married with children, and yet the world was telling you?

1:31:39Danielle:Well, no, I mean, I kept assuming I had to. I just kept putting it off.

1:31:43Gloria Steinem:Okay, so it was more avoidance.

1:31:45Danielle:Yeah.

1:31:46Gloria Steinem:You said, I hope to live to 100. I've so loved being here. I never want it to end. What is it that you would be most sad to leave, Gloria?

1:31:54Danielle:Waking up in the morning and contemplating a day and seeing you, seeing friends, walking out in the street, just the daily things of life. Nothing big, I don't think.

1:32:06Gloria Steinem:That's interesting because I know you love to travel so much. So it's the minutia of life.

1:32:11Danielle:There's a time when I did travel and live in India and live in Europe and all of that. But I think that's more of time of exploring.

1:32:19Gloria Steinem:That thirst I have for exploration will be quenched one day. I'll want to be at home.

1:32:25Danielle:Yeah, now I'm at home. I'm not traveling. I don't think I'm motivated to get on a plane at the moment.

1:32:32Gloria Steinem:Is there anything that you recognize in yourself today that you didn't when you were younger?

1:32:38Danielle:Yeah, I'm sure there is. I'm sure when I was younger, I thought that I would get married or have to get married and have children because everybody else did. I mean, I was just looking around me.

1:32:49Gloria Steinem:Yeah.

1:32:49Danielle:And it took me a while to understand, you know, people can live in different ways.

1:32:54Gloria Steinem:Do you feel when you wake up at 92, like the same girl that you were at 22? too?

1:33:00Danielle:I don't think about it that way, but probably basically I am.

1:33:04Gloria Steinem:Okay. You said you want your funeral to be a feminist benefit. I didn't know that about you, Gloria.

1:33:09Danielle:Well, we need benefits, you know, so why not? When did you come up with that? I think when Bill Ahabzik died. What do you envision? Well, I'm not sure. And that should be up to whoever is here, not to me.

1:33:23Gloria Steinem:So it'll be up to Amy. Right.

1:33:25Danielle:But a meeting that is unconfined by religion that everybody is welcome at. And anybody who wants to speak or not speak is able to do that. And that people meet each other.

1:33:41Gloria Steinem:I love hearing that because your friend Jill told me one time that experiencing a Gloria Steinem birthday party is one of the best things in the world. because you have friends who are heads of state and famous actors and your favorite barista from down the street, and everybody is in one room. I imagine it being exactly like that. So your home is as much a part of your legacy as you are. In what way do you think you will have an open-door policy even after you're gone? I own three floors, but there are two floors I don't own,

1:34:20Danielle:four and five that are independent individual women on them. If I can afford it somehow, I would like to own the whole house so I can leave it as a meeting place for women to have a place to stay, to have meetings, to, you know, whatever it is. I saw in London a house like this, a brownstone that had a plaque on the outside left over from the suffrage era that I think was serving in that way. So I would still like to do that. And that would require that I am able to buy the top two floors.

1:35:00Gloria Steinem:Absolutely. I know that's the goal. You're so okay with me asking about your funeral and death. And when I'm downstairs with you, I ask you about affairs and dating and taboo topics that people don't ever want to broach.

1:35:16Danielle:Well, I don't know. Is that true? I don't know.

1:35:18Gloria Steinem:But I can tell you when I interview people, they really don't want to talk about death.

1:35:21Danielle:Well, I mean, we're all talking about it in a kind of generalized way, obviously.

1:35:27Gloria Steinem:Why do you think you're okay talking about everything? There's nothing that scares you.

1:35:31Danielle:I mean, there are things that scare me, but we're sitting here safely in a living room talking about, you know, so why not?

1:35:38Gloria Steinem:Besides Donald Trump, nothing scares you.

1:35:41Danielle:Right.

1:35:43Gloria Steinem:So I am 35 years old. If you could give me one piece of advice, what would it be? Well, I guess do what you love to do at least as much and hopefully more than what you have to do.

1:35:58Danielle:That's really beautiful.

1:35:59Gloria Steinem:And what is your hope for little girls who are born in 2026?

1:36:04Danielle:That they can live in a world where it's safe to be a female human being of whatever color we are and where it's possible and practical to imagine being whatever you want to be, a president, a dancer, you know, whatever it is that you feel you want.

1:36:27Gloria Steinem:Did you ever feel like you had limitations set, or have you lived into all of the dreams that you had?

1:36:33Danielle:No, I mean, I had limitations, but they kept sort of moving off into the middle distance, you know. I didn't actually have to get married and have children. where I didn't have to stay at home instead of living in India. You know, I mean, they just kept moving off.

1:36:49Gloria Steinem:Gloria, this has been my favorite interview of all time. Thank you for this. No, thank you, thank you.

1:36:59Gloria Steinem:Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

1:37:19Gloria Steinem:All the talk of probiotics can get confusing. Which to take? Why? What does it do? Let's make it easy. Garden of Life's doctor-formulated once-daily women's probiotic is the number one women's probiotic. Why should you take it? Well, Garden of Life transforms a range of probiotic strains to support digestive immune and vaginal health. Plus, this doctor-formulated non-GMO formula is designed specifically for women. Simply put, this is an easy way to support your gut health. Garden of Life, formulas for feeling alive. Available on Amazon. Disclaimer, number one based on Circona 52-week multi-outlet unit sales ending 11-30-25.

1:37:59Gloria Steinem:These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Are you a fraud-paying American? One in four tax-paying Americans has been a victim of identity fraud. With LifeLock, if your identity is stolen, they fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Last year, billions in refunds were stolen. Could be from your salary, overtime, or second job. Gone. But this year, you don't need to stay a victim because this tax season, fraud-paying American is something no American should have to claim. Save up to 40 % your first year.

1:38:34Gloria Steinem:Visit lifelock.com slash iHeart. Terms apply. Janice Torres here.

1:38:41Danielle:And I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

1:38:49Gloria Steinem:We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

1:38:52Danielle:The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change.

1:39:01Gloria Steinem:So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:39:31Gloria Steinem:We don't need their permission. We're forgiveness. We just get things done. So go ahead and doubt me. Judge me. Challenge me. But when the time comes, watch me. Bobcat. Wasn't that delicious? So good. Your bill, ladies? I got it. No, I got it. Seriously, I insist. I insisted first. Oh, don't be silly. You don't be silly. People with the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card prefer to pay because they earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases.

1:40:03Danielle:Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. No!

1:40:08Gloria Steinem:The Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit wellsfargo.com slash activecash. Terms apply. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.