From Hustle to Healing: Rewriting the Plan You Outgrew With Cameron Rogers

25:51Yeah. I felt this kind of plateau. And I said to her, I'm almost dreading therapy because I'm having to really think about what I want to talk about. There's nothing that feels needs fixing necessarily. There are certain things that I wanted to figure out and I felt talk therapy necessarily wasn't getting to the root of it. So we're in once a week and we'll go, I think, to more maintenance. But I am doing EMDR therapy, which has been extremely fascinating. But talking about boundaries, that's something that I've said I'm doing and I'm not getting into the details of it. Well, I'm happy to talk with you about like the process and stuff, but I'm not sharing like this is what the trauma is that I'm working through because I just don't feel that's necessary to share.

26:40Right. And I like that it seems like you have this like very strict constitution with yourself. Like you don't have to navigate the sharing. It sounds like it's a quick yes or no for you. I'm very gut forward. Like even with parenting, I don't read parenting. Really? No. What is my gut telling me? Have you always been that way? I have. I've always really trusted my gut. I've had to do so much work to trust mine. That's amazing. Well, I always hear it. Whether I trust it is actually another conversation because there's something I did with my career a few years ago. And I remember my gut being like, this isn't right.

27:15But I wanted the shiny object. And you think about it to this day. Yeah. And it wasn't right. But I really thought that it was the thing I wanted. I think everyone does that. That's part of exploring. No, I think that we're all going to have those. Yeah. But I do think with parenting especially, that's where I feel the most connected to my gut. And I just lead with that. One of the things that I hear people talking about most often now is that the world feels hard and heavy. And I do not want to ignore the real stuff that is hard and heavy. I've always just kind of been an eternal optimist. and when I talk to older women, they feel like this is just the ebbs and flows of culture and life, although they do say that it feels worse than usual.

28:00You're such a sensitive person. I'm wondering how you're navigating being optimistic and also like facing the realities of what's hard. I'm having a very hard time, like very hard. And I talk about that a lot in therapy because I can get really wrapped up in it. And I think it's twofold. One, I've chosen with my content to share my stances and my beliefs in politics and be outspoken on them and not shy away from it. So then I think the more I talk about it, the more I'm in conversation about it, the more I'm consuming it, the more it feels all consuming. So I'm trying to figure out what is this fine line between consuming the news and not letting the news consume me.

28:45And I serve on an impact board of an organization that's working to end mass shootings. And so we do a lot of work, whether it be the days that we're actually lobbying in Congress. I never in a million years thought I would say these words, but I'm on Zooms with legislative teams of senators and meeting with families who have lost children in school shootings. And it is heavy work. And I love it because I think it's wildly important. I don't love it. I think it's important and I feel very called to do it, but it has a very lasting impact on me that I don't think I fully acknowledge. But having children and doing that work feels very intense.

29:25And so I'm trying to navigate, like, for instance, I can't go on threads. I don't have Twitter, but I go on threads. And like, I can't do it at night. Because I'll be like walking into the bedroom. We don't do phones in our bed. But when I walk from downstairs to upstairs, I'm on my phone. And I'll just be enraged yelling about things that a certain someone is doing that day. and my husband's like, why are you doing this right now? It's 10 o 'clock, we're about to get in bed. Like, why are you screaming at me about him? So he doesn't share your sort of outrage. He shares the outrage, but not at 10 o 'clock at night.

29:59You just feel things really deeply. I feel things really deeply. And he's not on social media, so he doesn't get sucked into the same holes that I do where like I consume, consume, consume, and then I spiral and then I'm outraged and it's 10 o 'clock and like he's trying to wind down and I'm supposed to be winding down and now I'm just angry. I have a question about your relationship because I was actually just talking with a friend who fell in love with her husband at a point in time where she was super career focused and she was doing one thing at a very high level. And then a few years after they got married, she was like, I'm burnt out.

30:38I'm kind of done with this and took a full step back a pause. And she says, I think that I'm not the girl that my husband fell in love with anymore. And I'm still me. But I think he fell in love with some of that fire that I don't have anymore. And you are plenty fiery. I'm not saying that. But the girl that your husband fell in love with was in finance. No, the girl that he fell in love with was 16. We've been together since we were 16. So he's seen all the iterations. We have seen so many iterations of each other. that's cool so many iterations of each other which has been the greatest gift in the world truly the greatest gift in the world has there always been space for all the iterations yes or is there ever friction he allows me a lot more space it's something I'm working on with him well with myself actually and I find that has been such a gift in the sense that we knew from a very early age and even in college when we were together and we spent some time apart but it was this concept of we want to grow individually, but on parallel tracks.

31:43So we always had the freedom to have our own experiences and we live individual correlated lives. I have so many nights where I'm out with my girlfriends. He has so many nights where he's with his guy friends or weekend trips or whatever. And then so many times where we're all together. And then so many times we're individually together. I never wanted a relationship where I felt someone had to be with me 24 seven. We're both very independent people, but we are each other's person. Like he is my absolute fucking rock. And I would not be able to do anything. I posted it today this morning. I was like, if you are single or dating and you want to have kids in the future, the number one thing you should be thinking about is how they are going to show up as a parent and a partner in the household.

32:25Because I watch so many women in my DMs, especially parent their partners. And it blows my mind. Absolutely blows my mind. They are married single parents. And I don't think we talk about that enough because that is the greatest unlock, in my opinion, to enjoying your experience and fulfilling yourself as an individual, as a mother, and in your career after having children is how your partner shows up. I had a girlfriend of mine say that she feels like most of her friends' husbands are great dads and bad husbands. And I see what she's talking about, but it's hard for me to be willing to accept one of those things.

33:11No, you shouldn't. Yeah, I'll be single till then. It's better to be single and have children on your own than to be a single married parent. It seems like such a lonely experience. I can't even, like the messages I'll get if I'm away. It's like, who's with your kids? I'm like, my husband, their father. And they're like, oh my gosh, like, do you leave him? Like all of this. I'm like, what? No, I walk out the door. They are his children. He lives in this house. Like, I refuse to agree with this narrative that we need to be babying our partners and take care of them. They are grown ass adults. Start treating them like them.

33:47Eve Rodsky wrote an entire book about it with Fair Play. She changed my life because I actually had a limiting belief around that as well, which was like, I saw my mom do so much. And my dad is a fully functioning partner, but she really did more. And I still think he doesn't give her enough credit. Nope. But that's that generation. I ask my mom all the time, how in God's name did you raise three of us while dad was never home? What does she say? She like doesn't remember anything. She's like, it just was. I don't know. But I also think they just didn't expect differently. My mom and I talk about this a lot where we spend a ton of time with my parents.

34:23And so they are observing myself and my husband as parents all the time. And my mom is always commenting, Joe is my mom's favorite child because she's also known him for 18 years now. Like that's an ongoing joke. He is her favorite child. And she's always saying like how incredible. Oh, it's so amazing. And I'm like, yeah, it is. And he is an amazing parent. And also he's a parent. You guys just saw and expected such different things back in the day. But how did you expect something different if that wasn't modeled? I feel like it wasn't modeled in my household, but it's been modeled in some media.

35:01So Eve is the perfect example. I love Eve. I was just with her yesterday. She is the absolute best. And she's truly one of the best human beings I've ever met. Love her. We bought her card deck before we had children because I noticed in our apartment the toothpaste was running low. And I was like, I wonder if Joe would buy a new toothpaste. So I hid a toothpaste tube and I used a full toothpaste tube to see how long it would take for him to buy a new toothpaste. Because we had just fallen into this rhythm because I was technically in the apartment that he moved into. We had fallen into this rhythm of like I was ordering the toilet paper.

35:37I was getting the tooth, you know, all the shampoo, the little things you don't think about that are that are a lot of time. And I remember when we got our dog, that was the first time we really sat down and we were like, OK, who's going to walk in? Like, let's structure this out. I'll do mornings. You do nights. you can feed him then. I'll feed him then. And we got fair play. And I remember having a conversation around it. Then we had a kid and he had two weeks of paternity leave. So a lot fell on me when he went back to work. And then we sat down and did fair play again. And one of the greatest things about Joe is that if I give him feedback, he changes.

36:14And I wish I said the same thing about myself. And he took the feedback and changed. And I don't know. I think it was I had dreams and desires of things I wanted to do and I couldn't make it possible if I was carrying everything and I didn't want to be his mom like I just I don't know I don't know because I didn't see it modeled necessarily in my household so I'm not sure where it came from Eve I guess literally when I had her on the podcast she called herself the ghost of Christmas past because she was like I want to come back and help everybody so you don't get into this situation. People play fair play or read the book like once they're in the situation.

36:51But reading the book before marriage was life changing. Yes. Do it before. Yeah. There's so few people who shift culture. Like I'm just she shifted culture. Has literally begun a movement. Yes. And I love it. It's amazing. You said that motherhood gave you an identity crisis. What would you do differently to prepare for the shift? Okay, I have a hot take on this. I don't think you can prepare. Okay. I think you can. Awesome. No, I mean, I think you can have the conversations with people if you have people in your life who had children. What do you wish you knew beforehand? Or what's some advice?

37:28I will say the only preparation I think you can tangibly do is have a therapist, a prescriber, and a lactation consultant that you have a relationship with and are a client of before you give birth. Because you may need those. You may not. Amazing. But you may need them to find a new doctor, to get off their wait list, to find one that's in network, to find one that you like. Once you're in crisis, it's not good. In crisis, 10 times harder. And all of those things you could potentially need and feel in crisis, lactation consultant especially. So that is my one tip. Otherwise, I don't think you can ever comprehend, and I don't mean this in a dismissive way, you will never understand what that postpartum experience is like until you're in it.

38:12You can read every book until you're blue in the face, and you can think you are so prepared, and you can never prepare for it. Is there anything that you wish you would have done before having kids? I think about this kind of often, where I will watch people who are really far in their careers who I really deeply admire who don't have children yet. And I have a pang of jealousy. And maybe that's because I'm obsessed with my career. But like, I wonder what I could have done more of before I had kids if I had waited. I've never actually admitted that. But then I also remember my children wouldn't be the exact child they are because it's that exact egg.

38:52So that kind of cuts it right off. But I do feel, not that I had kids young. I was 30, so it's not. But in today's world, it kind of feels young in New York. Like I feel like a teen mom sometimes. I'm trying to think if there's anything I would have tangibly done. I mean, everyone will say like, travel more. I think I would have just fucking laid down more. Honestly, I would have rotted. I would have rotted on a couch. I never rotted. I acted like I was the most important person in the world and that I always had to be doing something. And I would have rotted. What do you mean? Like you would do hobbies?

39:23Like lay on a couch and do nothing, read or watch a movie. But what did you do? What did I do with my time? Yeah. What were you busy doing? I mean, you worked a lot. I don't know what the hell I was thinking, but when I was working at Chief Morgan, I would wake up at 4.30 in the morning to work on Freckled Foodie, to get to the gym at 5.30, to get to my desk at 6.45, to work until 5.30, to come home and then work on Freckled Foodie until nine o 'clock at night. And then on the weekends, I would have a full menu and grocery list. And I would spend all Saturday grocery shopping at different stores, lugging it back to my apartment, cooking all Saturday and all Sunday, and then delivering it to people's homes on Sunday.

40:00How long did you do this for? A year. That is completely unsustainable. And then at the beach, I would wake up and make breakfast and like get these like plastic cups and banners and whatever and hand them out to people just so that they like knew about Freckled Foodie. I don't know what you were really passionate. You were willing to like do the hard thing. Yeah. And when I sat down with Joe, because we were engaged at the time, so we were like merging our finances and this became a joint decision. And I said, I think I want to quit my job and like, see if I can do this. I remember him vividly saying, if you were someone who sat on the couch all day and I had to force to do things, I don't think being your own boss would be a good idea.

40:37But I've watched you for many years in life and especially the past year grind and grind. And I believe you and you'll figure it out. And so I just feel like I wish I would have relaxed more. Does it feel gratifying knowing that you figured it out? Yeah, I love my work ethic in a sick, twisted way. I love it. And I think that stems from feeling like I have to prove something. The more I talk to people, the more I feel like highly driven people have this like mix of trauma and love in their childhood. You feel 100 percent. Yeah, it's there. They're behind every successful woman. Yeah. Is a need.

41:11Well, you've got to be running from something or running towards something. Yeah. But that's what I mean. Like the people who are running You're running towards something, but you're also running from something. I don't know that I figured out what I'm running from. Do you know what you're running from? No. One of the reasons I'm in EMDR therapy. It's hard to pinpoint. Yeah. Or could we just be excited? Like, can I just be excited to be a journalist? Yeah, I have a hard time sitting still. I think that's the reality. I never saw my mom sit still or my dad. Like, I've never known or witnessed them to relax ever.

41:40And so it's what I grew up with. and I think I also have this like chip on my shoulder to prove coming from privilege. It's like I don't want people to think I just got this because I grew up rich. I want to work and work and be like, no, I deserve this. And I think two things can be true. Obviously, you can't deny there's privilege and you can have a hard work ethic. But I feel for so long, I felt so driven to prove by my work ethic and I think I've unworked a bit of that. When I see millennial moms, I think that they've shifted a lot in motherhood. And then I see Gen Z moms now. And it's a whole different brand of motherhood.

42:18I forgot that Gen Zs are like moms. Yeah. I don't think I know any Gen Z moms. Have you seen online? Do you see a difference? Like how do you think millennials in particular have shifted motherhood? I think that there was a big movement of the gentle parenting and the reparent ourselves and just be kind. and I think sometimes we let it get away from us. We're like, my kids should be afraid of me. I am in charge. I want them to always feel loved and cared for and know that I love them no matter what. But I want to be able to give my child a look and have them stop what they are doing. Like there have to be repercussions.

42:59And I think sometimes we've let go of the repercussions. I've witnessed someone smack my child in a playground and the dad be like, we don't do that. Like, get him off the playground. Like, how do you feel? I'm all for talking about our emotions and I'm all for everyone inherently is good and I wanna give grace to the children. I think gentle parenting has honestly been misunderstood because if you go to the core of gentle parenting, they will say that there are supposed to be repercussions for your actions. It's just, you're not yelling and I don't yell at my kids, but you better believe there are repercussions.

43:33If you do that again, this toy is getting taken away. And I'm not saying this is right or wrong, by the way. I don't know. But that toy will get taken away if you do it again. And it does. And you don't get it. Have you ever come outside of yourself and found yourself yelling or doing something that you feel ashamed about later? Yes. I grew up in a very loud household. We yelled. We screamed. Crazy things at each other. And I make a conscious effort. It's why I wake up early in the morning. It's why I meditate. It's why I journal. It's why I do all my self-work so that I do not lose my shit on my children because my natural inclination is to just yell and be loud and lose my shit.

44:08And I don't want to. Have I? Yes. But I believe that the repair is more important. So when I have lost my shit, it's having the conversations with my kids, specifically my four-year-old because he's older and he can understand. I'm like, I am so sorry. I should not have reacted that way. You did nothing wrong. I was just very frustrated and that's not how I should behave. And this is how we can work through our anger. And so like when I was a kid, I feel like I was taught I'm not allowed to be angry almost. Like, oh, be happy. Even though we're yelling, everyone be happy. And I tell my son all the time, you can be angry, but you cannot yell at me.

44:47Go put your head on that pillow and scream as loud as you want. Go punch your pillow. Go upstairs to your room and be by yourself. That's so fine. You are allowed to be angry because I still get angry. But how do we handle the anger and what do we do with it? I really like that philosophy.

45:30Start creating now at Funko.com. Be unique, not anyone else. Express it now. Just pop yourself. That's Funko.com. Hello, hello. This is Malcolm Glabal from Smart Talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari HP. Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari. I'm still working on rolling my R's. But what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans in the digital age. Ferrari fans and superfans want to be part of something, want to belong to something.

46:15So they want to be part of a community, and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team. You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history. And now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions. When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology and digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans. To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit ibm.com slash Ferrari.

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48:59What's something you used to believe deeply about raising kids that you don't believe anymore? I don't know if I believed it deeply, but I don't think I ever thought about how you have to parent different kids differently. I just never thought about that. Do you have a kid who's more anxious or less anxious? Not anxious per se. I don't think we've gotten old enough to figure that out yet. But I have two very different children, night and day. Everything about them is different. And I think my first kid, in the beginning especially, was this like unicorn baby who didn't cry and slept well and never spit up.

49:30And I was like, I'm the best. I am so good at this. And then my second kid humbled me in the most needed way. I hear that so often. Truly, he's the freaking best. But he humbled me in the best way where I also let go of so much control because I was so anal with our first and I tried the same with our second and realized it didn't work. So I just kind of threw caution to the wind. I was like, OK, I guess we're on this ride. And I think that's the biggest thing that's shifted in me. Many things have shifted, but I used to be so type A controlling before I was a mom. And I don't think I would say I'm type B.

50:07I'm type A with my work, but in other aspects of my life, I am so much more comfortable giving up control over things I just don't care about. I'm going to do some rapid fire with you. A conspiracy theory you can get behind. What qualifies as a conspiracy theory? Like we were talking about reincarnation on my show. Can we count that? Yeah, sure. Okay. Like fully get behind that. Ghosts, all of those things. I've never met a ghost, but I believe in reincarnation. in my house. You met them? I did not meet them. Carly could have told you about her. Multiple people. Carly's her cousin, by the way.

50:41They've since sold it, but the house I grew up in was over 300 years old and it was an old farmhouse and multiple people have seen the same woman, Ghost. Multiple people who aren't connected. I want to meet her. Yeah, me too. I never met her. So cool. But I used to do like seances and all that stuff. I was kind of into it when I was younger. I always tell the women in my life that I love that if we lived back in the day, we would have been in the same coven. Oh, absolutely. So it's like that. A lesson you've learned in therapy that you use daily. The power of and. Two conflicting emotions can coexist at once.

51:17I noticed you use that. I say it all the time. Instead of but. Yeah. Because I think it's the most powerful realization in motherhood to give yourself the freedom to feel two things. There's a few definitions of wisdom. My favorite definition is to be able to hold two opposing truths at one time. So the and is literally wisdom. Yes. A belief you've outgrown. That I can white-knuckle anything into happening. A belief you refuse to let go of. That you need to look or act a certain way to be taken seriously or to be successful. A book that changed your life, something you think everybody should read.

51:55I do not read books that I know a blanket statement changed my life. You're such a reader. I read so much, but do you know what I read? Yeah, you like smut. Romance, smut. But that could be life-changing. Okay, let me just tell you, actually, yes. If you are a mom listening to this, I don't know what your demo of listeners are, but if you are anyone, okay, I hate saying mom, but I think moms struggle the most with their sexual well-being after having children. Your partner becomes your roommate. You're freaking tired. Your body doesn't feel like yours. Your sex drive just isn't the same. You feel like you don't have the time.

52:29reading romance novels will ignite your spark again. And I think sexual well-being is so important. I talk about it a lot on my platform because I think sex is a part of our like mental health and wellness. So if we're going to go fantasy, A Court of Thorn and Roses by Sarah J. Mass, if we're going to go non-fantasy, I'm going to recommend the Windy City series. I love it. Thank you. Say it proudly. Something every woman should try once. I'm thinking like there are a few that are coming to me traveling alone. I used to do a lot of that. I loved it. I haven't done it recently. Doing something naked.

53:07Just like anything. Anything. My mom's going to kill me, but I would sometimes come downstairs and she was doing the dishes naked. I'd be like, what are you doing? I grew up in such a naked household. My husband has seen my mom naked on multiple occasions. It is such a naked household. So your mom is me. It's either like you're naked or you're not. We had this conversation at dinner last night. My friend was saying she grew up in one. And I was like, no, you haven't. I've never seen your mom naked. And she was like, what do you mean? I was like, how many times have you seen my mom naked? My friends have seen my mom naked.

53:36And she's like, well, you're an abnormality. So just like doing stuff naked. I'll leave it at those two. The last question is the question everything card game question, which is do plants thrive or die in your care? Neutral. No plants. Very few. And I would not say they thrive. But you live in the suburbs. Yeah. You know what? I'm thinking indoor plants. Yeah. Outdoor counts. Yeah. But we have like a sprinkler or something. My outdoor plans thrive with money. That's fair. You're still taking care. Okay. Then yes. Sure. They don't die, but I really don't know if thrive is the right word. They are alive.

54:09Cam, thank you so much. Thank you. You're amazing.

54:17Okay. You know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

54:57We'll be right back. and get a five-year prize guarantee. Switch now at T-Mobile.com. Qualifying plan requires the prize guarantee on talk, tax, and data. Exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See T-Mobile.com. This year, it's Pop's turn for a laugh. So celebrate Father's Day with a gift that really pops. A customized Funko Pop of him. First, think of all the things that make your dad the man. Then turn those ideas into a personalized Funko Pop. Select hair, clothing, and skin tone options to match his fit. Don't forget to show off his favorite hobbies and sports with amazing accessories. You can even add his best friend.

55:30Start creating now at Funko.com. Be unique, not anyone else. Express it now. Just pop yourself. That's Funko.com. Hello, beautiful. I'm Amy Eric, founder of Madison Reed, a hair color company I named after my daughter. Forget everything you know about hair color. The mess, the smell, the hassle, the damage. We're female founded and female led. We've transformed the hair color experience with ingredients that care for your hair and award-winning color on your terms at home or at our hair color bars. The future of hair color is here at Madison Reed.

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