How to Tell the Story Only You Can Tell with Girlfriends Creator Mara Brock Akil

28:22And that's what I call like riding the wave. And that can be a addictive. And so thankfully it's a good addiction because it's created a wonderful career for me, but I enjoy riding the wave and letting these characters embody me and being the vessel by which the story can come through. You asked some pretty deep questions on the opening page. I think that one of them was, what did the nineties tell us about ourselves before we were launched into the new millennia? Did you have an answer to that before you posed it? Or do you have an answer now? You know, one fun thing that the book revealed to me, I always expect a gift out of my writing.

29:06And sometimes it hits you right away. And sometimes it might be years later vis-a-vis the audience, you know, reflecting on it. But in this case, I think with the 90s, our effort that we had to make in our friendships are really valuable. And I'm not saying it's not happening now because it is, but I'm curious about the consistent nature of the gathering and the need to really be oneself truly. and not for the gram, not for, you know, not for the phone. Like I even wonder how much phones just being present is disrupting the connection. Anyway, the 90s, I feel like the 90s for me, the gift of the book was Dion and Farrah in the book, that journey of friendship that is in the through line of the book.

30:16It revealed to me that why are our girlfriends really important is that they represent this. They become the surrogate parent for what we did not get from our parents that keep us that keep us steady enough so we can get our own legs, our own legs sturdy enough for we to parent ourselves. and that's when the healing begins at that generation. And then I think you've heard of like, if you heal yourself, you heal seven generations forward and backwards. I think that's exactly what happens. And I think our girlfriends hold us. They just hold us in place until we can get it together so we can reparent ourselves, find some level of forgiveness, understanding of what the legacy of pain that may have been passed on can be stopped.

31:15And then also remember what's good about bringing forward from your family legacy. And then you can move on. And which is interesting because if you're watching the men now, there's been this, you know, all this naming. They're not emotionally available. All these women, what's happening in the divorce rate and the young women don't want to get married. Like what is happening? I think it's not the sky is falling. I believe the soil is turning because we are trying to find new ways. And I think when men start to hold, when they, I don't know if they're going to call each other boyfriends, but my crew, my guys, my whatever.

31:57But when they honor that male gathering and that mentorship of holding each other in place long enough for them to reparent themselves and understand what a new definition of protection and providing is. And, you know, we can, we can, I think there's a, you know, not time to, I think there is value in honoring the power of softness being protected by, and what is the new definition of that? It's not just money though. We like that. You like beautiful spaces. We like beautiful spaces. But you kind of explored this in forever. Yeah. In some ways. Like you really are, it's almost like you have this spidey sense in culture and you're like, can feel something before it shifts.

32:53I liked when you said that the sky is not falling, the soil is turning. It is. And what seeds are we going to plant? And I think the night I was going back to look at the near past and what is, where are we in this place that we can rethink things? I think one powerful thing I think women can do is to think deeper about our bodies, our sexual experience. What is healthy, sex positive, feel good sexuality for us? And even in forever, if you notice all of the young women, though there's problems around the subject, their approach to sex is a sex positive idea. It is. And that accountability, that responsibility to yourself and your own desires is a shift.

33:49And in that shift, it will create language for what it is that we want in partnership with others. Well, how do you think about, because you're talking about sexuality. Yeah. How do you think about it in terms of sexualization? There are certain public figures that I think use their sexuality as a tool to gain followers or money or whatever it is. It's part of who they are in the world. And I constantly think to myself, is that liberation? I think about that too. So how do you think about it? And this is the system that we have been operating in. And others have gotten to decide what the value was.

34:33And they are playing the game well within a old paradigm. I'm curious as a new paradigm, as we are thinking about our whole health, our whole self, have we even had a chance to understand the euphoria of pleasure at a very sort of sacred place? Yeah. I think that's what I'm asking. Have we even had that yet? And if the sky isn't falling and the soil is turning and we can plant new seeds with new ideas and build a new world. Could we consider wondering what real pleasure is for me? And that's separate. I think one of the things, you know, in the book and me as a survivor myself, you learn how to separate yourself from your body.

35:24What if, oh, well, what if the healing allows you to connect your body with your heart, with your mind, and with your spirit? what would it be like to live in that human experience? And, and so I just think part of it is, um, learning about yourself, you know, learning about, um, I still think there would be room in the world for people to be very vocal about sexuality and, and, and your body and teaching you about it because I think we are, we've gotten, some aspects of what others think, but what if, what if other people had got the mic and talked about it in a different way, you know, um, where you can come from your own choice, not from an era in which you were there to please a man.

36:19You just period. Yeah. I mean, I've moved through that. I mean, I, I, I lived through that like a lot of other women that part of our sexual experience really from the lens of how do you please him? What was the turning point for you? The turning point in which way? And when you started to view it differently?

36:44I think one amazing turning point for me was yoga. Okay, stick with me. Okay. I thought you were going to say like an amazing partner. Okay, yoga. What I realized, have you ever done yoga? Yeah, yeah. Okay, do you remember at the end where, like, have you ever had an instructor and they say, like, especially during Shavasana, which is really nap time. Okay. But in Shavasana, they'll be talking. They're like, feel the sensations and tense up here and let go here. And I'll be like, in my mind, I'll be like, will she just shut up so I can just get to this nap? And then recently when you find the right instructor, shout out to Kayona, Kai taught me how to really connect to my body.

37:31So I said that to her and I was like, girl, can you just be quiet while I take the nap? So she goes, Mamoru, what is this thing? And I said, I just, and she goes, why are you bothered by me asking you to connect to your body? And I was like, again, a question. And I was like, huh? And she goes, why don't you just try it? I go, what do you mean? What do you mean? Like feel the sensations of my, what are you talking about? I just, and what I realized in that moment is I really never, I really was able to understand I am so disconnected from my body in so many ways. and when I found connection to my body that I can feel the sensations of my body I stopped calling anybody including my mother um my best friend because I realized how much my body has been my best friend she's been holding my purse stuck in the corner at the club forever And I have been away from her this whole time.

38:39And the return to my body, just feeling it. I can heal myself. There's times now when I feel like, oh, I feel like I'm getting sick. I can connect to my body and heal my body. And so to be reunited with my body, you start to wonder what you wonder about all sensory ideas. And I started to wonder about the impact of what has happened to me and how and the choices I've made as a result of it. what part of sexuality is really me as much as I was so disconnected from my body that I could just do whatever, you know, whatever, and whatever I, whatever they wanted. You know what I'm saying? And not to say that you don't find pleasure within it.

39:41And that's the confusing part sometimes. It's because it is fun sometimes. You're like, oh shoot, you know, that was great. But when you kind of, when you read, when I reunited with my body, I just started asking myself all the questions. And so that was a huge turning point for me. And that happened around the time that I embarked on writing the book. It was funny. I got a call about, you know, from the publisher saying, Hey, would you consider being such a fan of your work on screen, believing that my voice would translate to the page. That call came after my reunion. Now that just in real time, I'm figuring this out with you that I'm realizing that my reunion to myself, I think six months ish after that, I got the call about would you be open to writing the book and then I had I got to pour out more of what I've been holding in my body your dedication makes so much it makes different sense to me now because it was really beautiful you wrote to shame and all her tantrums yes and I was seeking the meaning of that throughout your entire book I'd love to hear it in your own words what does that phrase mean to you?

41:00Shame is this other whole person almost that we carry around with this all the time. For me, shame, I believe we all carry some portion of it, something in our lives. It can just be, you know, it can be something as I lost a job and your level of embarrassment to your community, to your family, to yourself can fester into shame, right? If you don't really, and it just keeps growing and growing and growing. Something as traumatic as happened to me or that I gave to the character Dion, that weight can keep growing in ways that you have no idea. And I feel like acknowledging it and dealing with it is like unburdening yourself with that weight.

42:03So much of your work has to do with love. Oh, thank you for saying that. When I read that, I thought, oh, wow. To me, this question is, can I be fully seen and still be loved? Yes. Yes. Yeah. You know, being a mother has taught me that a great deal. In what way? Well, it's so funny. And it was shout out to the moms. I know I used to say this too. Like, I've always felt like the, like, especially when they were little, I was like, why are they acting up more with me than everybody else? Yeah. You know, especially even their dad. I'm like, wait a minute. And then I started to realize, wait a minute, wait a minute.

42:42I have to process this differently, that they love me and feel so safe with me. I'm the safest place in the world for them to act a goose. It's hard. It hurts sometimes. It hurts your feelings sometimes. But then, wow, that I am the safest place on earth for you to act that way because you know I will love you. the next minute, the next hour, the next day. And then if you think about that, that is our relationship with God. We act a goose and God loves us at every breath. And they, and, and I think when I think about how we can extend love to romantic partners, to friends, to coworkers, to the human being in your life.

43:33Could we lead with that? Doesn't mean that, you know, obviously every relationship has that you can't create boundaries. Even as a mother, I have to say that is like with Shane, that's too much. You got to go sit over there. You got to go have this tantrum. You got to go sit in the corner. You got to think about your behavior. And I think even our relationship with God boo boo you can't do that that's not healthy for you I'm going to let you I love you so much if you want to learn life this way I'm going to let you do it I'm going to love you anyway you're going to come home to me but here on the earth bound human experience I think that the the loving somebody fully the privilege to witness someone

44:31is love to me. And I think that... The privilege to witness someone is love to me. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

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49:26So I felt like your dedication was pretty poetic, And then I learned that your mom was actually a poet. She's a published poet. My mother is a published poet. Isn't that pretty badass? And then I realized that your title character is named after your middle name. And then Joan from Girlfriends is after your mother. Yes. So then I started thinking when we engage with your stories, how much of it is really just you? Oh, yeah. So much of me is in my stories. The hilarious part of me, the deep, the profound, the messy, the joyful. I put a lot of myself in everything. But I also am looking at us. I observe us in every situation that I'm in.

50:16I'm curious about, I think maybe, you know, they say we're mirrors. So my curiosity in you is like curiosity in me and vice versa. And I do choose to love myself. So I am trying to see what's love looks like, sounds like, feels like in other people and just observing our collective behavior. Yeah. And where are we at this time that I have been privileged with life and craftsmanship to tell story. but so much of myself is in and and the shout out the naming of people what I do takes a lot of time and sometimes I'm not always can be around as much as I would like to be around and it's it's just my way of telling people that I love them even though I'm not I can't always be there because the demand on writing is quite a bit.

51:17So from Moesha to Girlfriends, The Game, Being Mary Jane, Forever, and now this novel, one of the through lines is definitely growth. And your characters are constantly being more honest versions of themselves. What has been the hardest truth for Mara Brock Akil to tell Mara Brock Akil? I'm getting better at being more honest about me. I think I get to do that because I can craft it in story, right? So there's not, it's never a hundred percent me. You don't really know unless I tell you which parts are me or which parts were inspired. And as soon as you make a choice for a character, it becomes the characters too.

52:02But where I do have a really pray over this, like even in forever, my son, my sons are my muse through the curiosity of the age that these kids are in. They're my window in. it doesn't stop at them, but they are the way in. And I hope that they see that. I really appreciate their allowing me to muse off of them and use some of their, their facts to create a truth in that, in that story. I hope that, I hope that there are, that they feel that I, in crafting the story. I took care of their life experience that I borrowed for this story. Okay. So you've spent 30 years writing cultural moments that stay as memories in our mind.

53:06Some of them have been instant classics, I would say. I want you to flex on us for a minute. Did girlfriends walk so that Insecure could run? Yes. And that's the way it's supposed to be. I can't tell you how thrilled I was when Insecure not only came onto the scene, but made it to HBO and took up more territory from a resource base that the cinematic imagery they were able to put around the bodies of black fly women. And then in the pilot, how Issa and Prentice, who is also one of my, he's on my family tree. I'm so proud to be his mentor. But they shouted out girlfriends in the pilot to say the respect for what came before me.

54:00And then we're going to take this baton and run. I mean, did they run? I was like, they killed it. I was so excited about how far they ran and how much space they took up. When you look at TV before Girlfriends and after Girlfriends, what do you think changed most? Oh, I didn't realize the liberating way we talked about all subjects on Girlfriends was not only going to liberate other showrunners and filmmakers and creators and actors to want to be more honest and want to be more layered. I think vulnerability in Black women, the layeredness, I think I've added that to the culture, the complexity of us and making room for that.

54:48But I think it's also shown up in, like, I would like to say for women like yourself, you know, the influencers, podcast, creator, the creator economy over here, I think Girlfriends has had impact in that where people like Joan, like she went from being a lawyer to the J spot. Like I can own my own life and I can be fly. I can my interior. I love, I mean, look at your set. It's amazing. It's like interiors. I think I gifted interiors. I'm really proud of that. You know, Nancy Myers is known for her kitchen sets. but like they would call it like house porn and film. I really think that I am interior porn for, and I think I've, I've added to the culture around that.

55:41Certainly style, you know, that we, that was a big part. Yeah. Style was absolutely that the, the level of ambition and aspiration that we wanted for our lives, the having it all, you know, and truly understanding that having it all meant a good healthy sense of self and relationship with self and others. I think that, and I think I can see that in the, on a, on a business side of things, I guess, or a career side, how people thought to do things on their own with this technology. You know what? Yeah. Tony, Tony Childs, she specialized in results and she is fabulous. I think that, I think that translated.

56:24I think, um, I think the Lynn character surprised me. I think she was the gift to the future in that I may not have it all together, but I'm worth being loved. And though we didn't use language like queer, she was, but she was before she named, named herself anything. She named herself Lynn and she was loved and accepted for who she was. I think even the questions of sexuality, I think I've added to the conversation about what is my pleasure. And I think those are named a few. I love that you said the vulnerabilities of Black people's lives you've added to the culture. When I watch any of your work and reading this book, there's so much interiority.

57:16Like nothing is what it really seems on the surface. And you've spent decades creating space for black characters to be vulnerable. Did anybody create that space for you or were you creating something you so deeply wanted? Oh, yes. My mother and I have such safety in my relationship with my mother. It can be fully myself. and you know lately I think the last even like three to four years we almost talk like every day only because she has been the caretaker to my grandmother who has passed and then I just we just got in that habit and we just talk every day and you know I also sought out therapy and I really value that weekly appointment um I I also responsible for a lot of people's lives being at the helm of, um, the projects.

58:14And I take that seriously and I need to be healthy and whole in order to go in there and make the best decisions for the show and for the people who make it. Um, so therapy has been that. And then my own girlfriends, I have some really, I have, um, I have some really good girlfriends and it's funny, maybe it's the Gemini in me. I I have like, I've got little tranches of girlfriends for the different versions of myself. Oh, I like that. Yes. And, you know, I think. That's cool. Yeah. And the last one I really would say, I cannot express and stress the power of my journaling. I make safety for myself with myself.

59:02And it's in journaling. I cannot stress that enough. If you only write your story and you are the, it's an audience of one, your story, our stories, our feelings, our thoughts, our concerns, our rage, our revenge, all the things. I think if you can first place it in a journal, it begins the healing. And even if it's just an audience of one, it is worthy to be considered in sort of a stream of consciousness thought, whether it be crafted thought. Pen to actual paper. Pen to paper. It does something. You can look at all the scientific. That's what I love about the internet. You can go find this on YouTube.

59:50Somebody better can tell you this. But I know to be true. even if there was no scientific measurement to it. I know what it does when I put my pen to paper there and that now it is measured. You can go find that out, but it does something to not only our brain, but to our, I would say my whole nervous system and the healing begins in that. So Girlfriends is about to have its 25th anniversary this year. Excuse me, last year you celebrated 25 years with the original Girlfriends cast. And you noted that for 17 years, people have asked you to turn it into a movie. Yes. I don't want to compare it too much to Sex and the City.

1:00:28It's okay. That's a good comparison in terms of the epic nature in which people want to experience gathering around a story. That's the power of story. People want community around it. They want to dress up because we were fly on Girlfriends, too. And so could you imagine like a whole 90s? Get into it. Can you make this happen? But I guess my question, though, is like the Sex and the City sort of it's not a reboot. What would it be called? Like the. Oh, yeah, I guess they rebooted it. Yeah, they rebooted it. Yeah. And it was it came to such mixed reviews to stuff like that make you sort of reconsider.

1:01:10Yeah, I think I have a story that I would love to do in a film and I have been trying to get it made. I just, you know, right now where the industry is, they don't see, and there has been some interest. I want to be clear, but how much money are we going to do this for? No, we need to do this right. Thank you. And I want to do it right. And I think I do, I know I have the story to make it right. And I'm really at that point where I need the money that I need. And if it's not going to be there, I can't keep knocking on every door. I have to sort of move on. But when that money comes or a new idea comes for a lesser amount of money, I don't need to do this.

1:01:59If I can't do it right, why am I doing it? That's my question. And so right now I'm looking for $50 million to tell the story that I'd like to tell set in Los Angeles for the, for the entire cast to come back. They want to come back. They're open to it. Um, but we all want the right, uh, value kind of goes back to this conversation I was talking about with sexuality. When you kind of are very clear, no, this is what I want. This is how I'd like to experience this. Otherwise I I can just make new things from the woman that brought you girlfriends. And so I'm just, I'm believing in that right now.

1:02:44And I don't know how that's going to be or if it's going to be, but I'm at peace with that. Yeah. I think with the 25 years, I think honestly my ego wanted to be able to pop off and be like, yo, we're making the movie you guys. But I really believe in God's timing. my relationship with God was born out of surviving what I went through. That gives me the authority to tell the story that I'm doing now. And I would never trade that. I would never go back and try to fix what happened to me then because of my relationship that I have with God. And because of that, I believe in the timing of my life, even though it gets sticky sometimes and I want to have tantrums.

1:03:31I believe in it. And now I stay curious about my own life and what is going to happen and expect, to be honest, I expect the, you know, the gifts. Were you surprised by how much people connected with the first season of Forever? Because I know that was such a personal project for you. Wow. You know, am I surprised? I'm delighted. Great word. I'm delighted. I knew it was going to connect. I have been delighted to see the places in which I, I didn't know that that was going to happen. Like, and And And I'm so thankful. I think, you know, anybody, the privilege to tell a story and then for people to really listen and engage with you, that is a privilege.

1:04:27And I'm really happy to see the impact of the show on everybody. And I'm also, I wish it could get out sooner than we are, but we are making it. We are making it. We're on day 20 something of day 80. It takes about 80 days to produce these. it took a lot of weeks to write them and but we're we're but we're getting there I don't know I don't know when we're going to be out I'm it's not going to be in 2026 so I hope anyone's not mad about that and that they'll that they will come around when it comes back on the air but I I really love the conversations that not only people have with me but that I'm hearing that they're having amongst each other.

1:05:14Like one of my favorite things was when I was on the vineyard, I literally could not walk without people telling me how much they love the book. But what I got repeatedly was how much people were having family meetings to discuss the future of their children. Like, what do you really want? What do you, what are the, what, what is it that you, who are you? Where are you right now? Where do you think you want to go to college? If you want to go to college, like what are your dreams? And as opposed to conversations, we know that we're in the recent past, if not still now, is you're going to college, you're doing this, you're doing that.

1:05:50Because as a parent, that makes me feel good about your future. And I thought, wow, that's really great that families are sorting it out for themselves. I know there was a lot of moms that cried on me who saw in Dawn that she had such a controlling nature out of love. And I would tell them, I know it's love. And your children know it's love. And now we can see it together. And, you know, then the fears of their differences, whether it be, you know, neurodivergent or the fear of being a black boy in America. I mean, look at what's happening in our news today. The heartbreaking things of what's happening to black boys in America.

1:06:38Like they're not safe. It's like forget even sexuality. But they're going to make it home. That is still happening today. And someone making room for their humanity is I think that's what those hugs and tears were about. because I think about it too. I think about it for my own sons and their friends. And they look like little giraffes to me sometimes. They look like little, you know, like how could you think that they're violent of any sort? Look at them. They're so sweet and innocent and awkward and handsome and swaggy and all those things in one. And I think making room for their humanity and them to young people to consider love.

1:07:25I heard the other day, someone was telling me, oh yeah, my daughter, she's hanging, she's gonna be in the vineyard this summer. She's looking for her forever love. I said, okay. That's so good. Love is alive in the vineyard and hopefully everywhere. I know you had such a personal connection to Judy Blume. So to make that show must've just been incredible. You don't even know. You ended up flying to meet her, right? Yes. Was it everything you wanted? It was everything. I burst into tears. I turned into a 12-year-old girl as soon as I met her. It's still surreal to me, if I'm going to be honest.

1:07:59It's funny. I posted about it, but I didn't lay heavy into it. I think I just, I'm noticing some things I want to hold for myself before I share them in the Instagram of it all, in the Insta of it. because you have to think, I'm like, I remember reading her books. Like I remember like running to the library, like trying to beat out the girl. I know she's trying to get blubber too. I'm trying to get, we're trying to get these books. I remember all the effort I took and all the joy I felt getting lost in the pages of her book. The honesty that she met me with, you know, in her work. and then to meet her and then to get her blessing to reimagine the work for her to love it.

1:08:47Because Judy will tell you if she does. Well, she knew you were going to do it right. Yeah. For the girls who are coming up now who look at you that way, how do you talk to them about the industry? What do you say to them in terms of who they need to become as a person to really be a great producer, a great writer? I told them they can absolutely do it, that it is going to take a practice. It's funny, I have a writer's colony and I built it around these three pillars. You need a place to write, so you need a practice. You need a place to belong. You need to find the community. You need to find the people who are going to read your scripts or read your work and give you real feedback.

1:09:27And you give that back to them so that we make each other better in the sculpting. And you're going to need time to find your voice. What are the questions you're curious about? What do you see? What's caught your attention? That is uniquely yours. Let me be a standard, but you can't be me. But a lot of young people feel they're running out of time. Yeah, I do know that. And I think it requires people like myself who, you know, starting a foundation is not easy. And let me tell you, it's hard enough to keep up with my day job and try to build on my dreams. but my foundation is a God whisper. I've got to create space for the new, for the new writers, for the new craftsmen, because we need their voice.

1:10:18It's not like it's a, it's a privilege, but it's a need, like it's a necessity. And I think we don't want to lose the, the storytelling that would come from those perspectives. And so I think it's going to take more people like myself who have have been able to carve out a place of safety. Yes. To offer a place for people to dream and aspire and do. And I really do think we, going back to the soil is turning, the seeds are the ideas. The seeds are the stories. Our greatest asset at this point is going to be our story. when, and I don't say this from a dystopian perspective, I think AI is here and it's going to change us, but it doesn't mean that we lose our humanity.

1:11:16I hope that it's something where we think that that's what can only humans do or what do humans only want humans to do. That's actually exciting to me. And the one thing that we can do is share our story. And that's the one thing that if you think about it in terms of economics, like it doesn't cost that much to sit down and write. It doesn't cost that much to sit down and write. What it does cost is a lot of time. Sometimes it costs sometimes, you know. Self-reflection. Yeah. To go deep in and what do I have to say that might be worthy of a larger audience outside of myself and my friends? If you want to do it on that level, you know, how can I use my creativity and community?

1:12:05Like, how can we figure this out together? What's going to come of that? Yeah. You know, I believe we can do it. I think we're at a time too that we're more interested in each other than ever. I think the information age laid the groundwork to be curious about humans, to be curious about humans and not just in the horror, though we're still interested in horror. I'm just trying to say that we might be interested in our own humanity as much as we are titillated by the superheroes and the horror stories and the action films. I believe we might be interested in the renaissance of us. And storytelling can come back around to that.

1:12:49You're held in such high regard. And it's beyond the world of entertainment or production. You say your name in a room and people just light up. Wow. It's the truth. Really? Yeah, I think. I really appreciate hearing this. It's the truth. Women feel so proud of you. And I think your work makes them feel proud to be a woman. And I'm just curious what piece of work makes you the most proud. Ooh, of my body of work? Yeah. Is there anything that stands out? You know, I don't often look back. I don't. I really, there was a time in which I knew everything about girlfriends, like everything, nothing you could tell me that I didn't know.

1:13:39Right. And now the audience knows it better than I do. Even if I were to do a film, I would have to go back and revisit it and be sure I know them.

1:13:55um so but girlfriends is my child she's it's girlfriends is kind of like my grown kid she is she is doing great like that kind of vibes you know and the book now is my infant you know and so it's like loving that question it's like I love all of my projects and um Um, but if I had to answer, you know, like, because I see also myself at those different, I can see my growth in each. I can see where I was at girlfriends, the game, being Mary Jane, love is forever. Even a couple of movies that I wrote in there. Um, and now this book, and I think it's my practice sometimes it's not so intentional, but I do believe in this, this idea that we can, we can die and be reborn again all the time.

1:15:01And I'm so, I guess, excited about the present. And right now I'm kind of in awe that I wrote a book. You know, I think in my, I think I revisited my high school dream book and it, you know, like what do you think you're going to be? and what you're going to think you're going to do. And I found it and it said that I was going to write a book. And I thought, oh, there was something in me at 17, 18, knew this and that it actually is physical in form in the world. Wait, so with that in mind, why was this the novel that you wanted to debut with? The thing, this profound thing that happened to me, I have to believe the God that I know, that is a gift.

1:15:49in the oddest of ways, that it was given to me for a reason. So then what am I going to do with it? So I've been trying to figure out how to talk about this. And you can see it in my work. I think it's most profound in Love Is. But you can see me talking about it, the effects in Being Mary Jane. You can see me playing with this, but I had way more to say. And in fact, this idea first was thought to be a film way back in the day, like maybe about 25 years ago. I started noodling with this idea of taking my experience where I remember taking that HIV test back in the 90s when we started to realize, oh, this is not just a gay man's disease.

1:16:44This can be for anybody. And, you know, we were like, you know, very independent in our behavior. It's like, okay, well, let me just double check here. And I took a test, not because I felt like I had it, but just because it was of the times. And that two-week wait is one of the deepest reflections. And you talk about facing what could be potentially a death sentence, because that's what it felt like at the time. And to go back and look at your life, I took that memory and I remember I wanted to talk about that. And I remembered I wanted to tell a story where a character had to look back at her life and the choices she made.

1:17:32And that there would be a witness to her at, you know, the toughest time of her life. and I wanted it to be at the high point of her life, you know, in the case of going up for a promotion. And I find those things fascinating as we as human beings on one aspect of who the world sees you as. Oh my God, she's got it together. She looks good. She's up for a promotion, but in the inside, you're falling apart and how well we are resilient as people, but what's really going on with your life. And if you think about the statistic of sexual abuse, it's one in four, I think for women. So if you think about it, you pass eight women too.

1:18:17And then, and I think the numbers are still just really getting real for boys because imagine the shame about even admitting that to happen to you. So I'm always curious about, but that happened to a child, but who are they now? And so all of these thoughts had my attention 25 years ago. And I was trying to figure that out. I also knew back then that my chosen form of film and television, that nobody was buying this. So I put it on the shelf. You see me working with it in my work. And then in 2020, Chelsea Johns called me up and she's from Penguin Random House. And she was like, Mara, I think your voice would translate to the page.

1:19:01So I now have someone who you mentioned held me in high regard and would say, Mara, we need you on the page. And I think the time, again, 2020 was rough for us as human beings and that level of reflection. And what do I want? What do I want to leave in the world? Who am I? What am I about? And I thought I would really like to get this story fully out. And this was an opportunity to really reverse engineer the movie in a lot of ways by first being a book and giving me a chance to workshop this story and see if it would have an audience with people want to have a very complex conversation about life.

1:19:41Yeah. About how are we still fly, aspirational, going after the dreams of our heart while shame is tugging at us all the time.

1:20:29We'll be right back. Hoda Casino app today. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. Okay, if you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer. And that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression.

1:21:07I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Shawn Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast, Disgraceland, I tell the stories behind music's biggest names, the moments, rumors, and real-life events that helped shape their legacy. Like the story behind Sonic Youth that starts with downtown New York cool and ends with album art inspired by a true crime.

1:21:51Sonic Youth was not fronted by a groupie hustling alpha like David Lee Roth. No, Sonic Youth's Thurston Moore was an artist in love with a fellow artist who just happened to play bass in the same band with him and his other artist friends. Her name was Kim Gordon. And Thurston and Kim were every bit as cool as the couple on the cover of Goo. The same couple involved in one of the UK's darkest true crimes. Disgraceland is part of the Exactly Right Network. Listen to new episodes every Tuesday, bonus episodes Thursday, and rewinds on Sunday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:22:35My first guest is Paris Hilton, Shakira, Luke, and Yerin, Samira, and Gracie. I'm so excited. On the bouncy bed. You have surprises. Many surprises. Welcome to Suite 305, where the group chat comes to life. What up,. It's like a way to say, hello, friend, hello, best friend, hello, sister. What up,. Look, I've never talked to anyone. Except with my children. My children know. Yes. I'm my lover. Oh. Oh. That's incredible. The movie. You're the only person I know that loves the yellow starburst. It's a lemon. There's no one missing you. Like you say, I'd like to collaborate with this person.

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1:24:36So I started this conversation asking you about the questions that you ask yourself. to craft your stories. So I want to end by asking you one more of your own, because in the book, in the revelation of Dion Daphne, your main character says, I asked myself for the first time ever, what is the story I'd like to tell about black women? So if I were authoring, oh, excuse me, you said if I were authoring our story today, how would I want us to be remembered? You have authored a number of stories about black women. How do you want them to be remembered? As human. as worthy of protecting as human, as worthy of being protected and loved as is, um,

1:25:24worth being patient with worth valued at being fought for. Um,

1:25:36that we are not one thing, you know, we are so many things, um, we are like this, and we are a reflection of womanhood in general. You know, I think my stories are for all humans and certainly all women, but the special attention to the details of a black woman,

1:26:06I want to be seen because if we can love her, if we can love black women, we would love ourselves enough to change this country and let the country be the leader that it is to help change the world. I'm going to do some rapid fire questions. Okay. A character that you wish you had created. Ooh, a character that I wish I had created. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. You're hitting me with. It's hard. I don't know that. Let me, um, can I, oh God, I'm failing at your rapid Let me do the next one. We'll come back. Which character of yours needs the most therapy? Well, gosh, it's, you know, Joan, she actually went to do therapy.

1:26:51All of my characters need therapy. What's one thing from the nineties that kids today will never understand? Kids from the nine kids today, something they won't understand about the nineties.

1:27:07guys this is hard i have more we'll skip they never understand they will never understand okay this is a horrible thing i'm gonna say how hard it was oh the 90s no that's the early 2000s i was gonna say how hard it was to be that skinny without any help

1:27:31I'm sorry. Okay. It's true. It's so true. I'm telling you guys, I was like, Oh, everybody's life. I like that answer. That counts for the nineties. It does. Okay. Okay. Joan, Tony, Maya, or Lynn, who would be the most fun to write today? Joan, Tony, Maya, or Lynn, who would be the, Oh my God. Why are you making this so hard? These are good questions. Okay. Joan, Tony, Maya, Lynn.

1:28:00I am so, I want to see Lynn. What's the most iconic fictional friend group? Oh my goodness. These are good. But you know, Maude and her girls, but it came up in, what was it called? The Golden Girls. They were an amazing friend group. I think we can learn a lot from them. I think the Golden Girls were really great. What is your favorite place to write? Oh, in New York, in my apartment in New York. I have a whole writing ritual in New York, in the Lower East Side. Yeah. What's something you believed about love at 30 that makes you laugh now? Oh, God, what? Oh, God, these are questions. Sorry. You're asking a writer.

1:28:47And so I, my spirit is laughing about something I can't name right now. But in writing, my spirit will tell me what I'm laughing about. And I want to be. I'm the same way as you. So what in 30 that I laugh at?

1:29:06I don't know. I don't know how to answer these questions. I have more. Don't worry. Okay. Don't worry. What's a book that raised you? Oh my goodness. A book that raised me. It's certainly, it's going to be Judy Blume. I was a Judy Blume nut. How are you there? God is me, Margaret. A place in LA that every storyteller should visit. Oh my goodness. I wish a lot of storytellers did visit, but unfortunately it closed recently, but it was Insomnia Cafe. You talk about the nineties, that place was full of writers. Something that every woman should try once. What is happening? I can't answer your rapid fire.

1:29:50Every woman should try once. Everybody that answers that question thinks of something really dirty first and then gives me a different answer. Well, you know what? Every woman, I think to be kissed passionately, like on the streets of New York, just kissing your way from dinner all the way on the walk home. I think that every woman should experience. Love. Yeah. Okay. Grab the question, everything card game, if you will. Okay. And whichever card calls to you. First of all, I love that you have this game and I cannot wait to play this in my personal life. Most likely to splurge on everything. Most likely to splurge on travel and where I stay.

1:30:40Oh, yes. You just look like you like a nice hotel. Oh my God. Why am I leaving the house? If I can't stay in a fabulous place in, I want to go to an amazing place and stay in an amazing place. I will splurge on that. Mara Brock Akil, thank you. Thank you. This was so much fun. You are lovely. So are you. I really appreciate getting to know you this way. Thank you, Mara. Me too.

1:31:12Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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1:32:55These are the stories you haven't heard. The kind you'll end up telling someone else. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison, or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of, or that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bundy. Listen to Disgraceland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotb. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats.

1:33:38Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Joy 101, and listen now. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CVS. My first guest is Karis Hilton, Shakira, Luke, and Yerin. We have surprises. Many surprises. Welcome to the Sweet 305 podcast where the group chat comes to life. What up? You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst. It's lemonade. This is Sweet 305. Here, oversharing is encouraged. Listen to Sweet 305 with Lele Pons on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.