Is She a Toxic Friend or Are You? Danielle Bayard Jackson

19:52Danielle Bayard Jackson:I mean, okay. So I like to just define it like this, you know, you know, so if we're in a friendship, I'm bringing my goals, my needs, my preferences, sensitivities to the table and you are too. Okay. At some point there's going to be competing interests. At some point, something I need is something you can't give. It's going to happen. But the difference between healthy and unhealthy is, you know, if it's healthy, we're trying to figure out how to meet this goal together. Somebody has a need we're trying to meet. Like it's, it's constructive. So we're talking through it. We're taking space to figure it out, to think that's constructive.

20:26Danielle Bayard Jackson:But as soon as it's like, I'm going to do things to maintain disconnection, what is the point? So that means the silent treatment, because I'm upset at you, or being punitive, women who punish. You know, if she wants to do that, then I'm barely going to talk to her. What's the point? That's not nice. I'm roping in a third party. I'm telling a friend, but I'm not telling her like, you know, she and I, we can't see eye to eye, like help me out here. That's different. But if it's like, do you feel like sometimes she gets shady? Because I feel like sometimes what is the point? So when it comes to that tension, what are we doing to mend it?

20:56Danielle Bayard Jackson:And if it's, if we're doing things that only deepen the disharmony, that is unproductive. Speaking of red flags. Yes. So you asked your followers to weigh in with their new friend, red flags. And the answer from women was overwhelmingly the same. Yeah. What was it? her talking about other people. Gossip. Yeah. No one, what Susie says of Sally says more of Susie than of Sally. No one likes a gossiper. It's bad vibes. And we all like have our, you know, we all have our moments, right? Like I love some good tea. Like she did what? You know, but there's something about we just met or we're new. And our conversation is you tearing down another woman.

21:43Danielle Bayard Jackson:For most of us, we're taking the message of like, oh, okay, so I wouldn't be safe here. what would she be saying about me? So it doesn't do much to help move that friendship forward in a safe way. I'm going to keep asking you about this line because I think you walk it so beautifully. Gossip can also be bonding sometimes. Barbara Walters, who I love, everyone who listens to this knows I love Barbara. She famously was like, loved gossip. It's one thing I differ on. Probably few, but what's the line between okay gossip, bonding gossip, and problematic gossip? Yeah. So Debra Tannen is a sociolinguish who looks at the way women speak, the way men speak, and she defines it as, are you talking about them or talking against them?

22:32Danielle Bayard Jackson:And that can help you see, okay, what are we doing here? Because one of the top topics people talk about is other people, just from like a sociological standpoint. And to some degree, gossip is a good thing. Like it came to have a negative connotation that we're just like slamming this other person. But, you know, historically the word has come to mean something negative, but it really means like we're talking about a person who's not in the room. To some extent, we have to do that. That's interesting. Because it helps us establish norms. Like if I come to a new job and people are like, hey, you know, you want to be careful of this behavior because this happened.

23:01Danielle Bayard Jackson:It's showing me what's acceptable here, what's not, who's an ally, who's a foe. So at some point I need that information exchange to know, but there's a difference between we're just like, Oh my God, isn't she awful? She is awful, right? Like she's bad vibes is a totally different objective, you know, with someone or against somebody. Are you talking about or against that's really interesting.

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26:38okay jealousy friendship jealousy you say sometimes it can be beneficial

26:44Danielle Bayard Jackson:i don't understand can you please tell me what you mean yeah okay so as i've learned it the difference between jealousy and envy we'll start there so envy requires two people and jealousy involves three. So envy is I want something you have. I wish that was mine. Envy. But jealousy means I'm scared that something I have is going to be taken away. So if we're tight friends and a new girl comes and you keep talking about how amazing your new coworker is, eventually like, okay, okay, that's enough because I'm jealous over you. I'm jealous that she might take what I already have. Envy is I want me to have, right?

27:21Danielle Bayard Jackson:But jealousy could be a good thing in terms of it tends to activate friend keeping behaviors. So it might make me step up and do the things I need to, to keep our closeness because I feel like, well, this might get taken from me. So now I step up. It can be constructive in that way. But in terms of friendship envy, kind of like, oh, I'm jealous of you. I think it could be helpful in terms of directing me toward the things that I want and desire in my life. But as soon as it turns into, I'm saying things to humble you, because I think you're getting a little too. Or I'm trying to like sabotage and get in the way of you achieving certain things.

27:56Danielle Bayard Jackson:Or I'm trying to tear you down either verbally or mentally so I feel better, right? So like if you get a new apartment and my brain is thinking like, how does she get that? Like she doesn't even da-da-da-da-da. That's where it would be a problem. It's a huge problem. Oh yeah. I feel like you cannot have people around you that don't want the best for you. I know it's like a little evil eye. but yeah no I that's like a quality that I really don't have time for I mean it's hard because we always say you know I want friendships where I can relax me myself but as soon as you feel like you're always on guard yes and now I'm measuring what I say and what I share because I don't want her to make a little passive aggressive remark or I don't want her to think that I think I'm all that it's a lot of mental labor and you know safety is like fundamental in a friendship and And so if that's not there, I mean, come on.

28:48I didn't realize that safety was such a big deal because, I mean, safety is so core of any, like it's the core of any relationship. So obviously it would be, but I didn't even think about that. This next question could be maybe my biggest question of the whole interview. Okay. Yes. Friendship expectations. So women have friendship expectations that I don't see the traditional man having. For instance, birthdays, bachelorette parties, baby showers, celebrations of any kind. We are expected to show up and show out in ways that men are just not socially like the norm. Right. I feel like I hear often that these celebrations, particularly weddings, are big sources of conflict.

29:38I want to kind of go through some of them with you. But overarchingly, why do you think that women expect more out of friendships than men?

29:45Danielle Bayard Jackson:You know, it's interesting because the research finds that women have higher expectations of their close relationships in general. So if you're a close relationship in my life, I expect a lot out of you. Whether it's romantic or platonic, our expectations are just higher in general than men's. And I mean, there's so many reasons for that. I think that for a woman-to-woman friendship, it might be what we said earlier about like, I expect that since you're a woman, I expect you to be able to read what I need, read my subtext and micro expressions, anticipate my needs. I shouldn't have to articulate them.

30:17Danielle Bayard Jackson:And I hear oftentimes women say to me, I mean, I should not have to say that. Like Danielle, like she should know. Like it's just like crazy to us that I'd have to explain myself because you should know. You're walking my exact same shoes. And so I think that right there starts to create a little bit of a dissatisfaction. Is the flip side of that that if we expect more, do we also get more out of our friendships? I don't think it's if you expect more, you get more. I think it's if you communicate more, you get more. Because I think the dissatisfaction we experience is compounded by the fact that we feel like we shouldn't have to say it.

30:50Danielle Bayard Jackson:But, I mean, you're never going to transcend a level of closeness that means you won't have to communicate anymore. I still have to tell my friends, you know, not demands, but like, hey, I think this year I want to, I think I want to do a bed for my birthday. I never do. And this year, that would be really important to me. I still have to say that. I can't do the whole, I mean, it's my birthday. Do I really have to spell that out? It's just, I mean, you could hold on to that if you want to. But essentially, your friends never really know. Like, are we low key? Are we not? Are we, you know. Right, you have to communicate where you're at.

31:23Now, what happens if the expectations are mismatched with what people are willing to give or show up as? So for instance, bachelorette parties. I'm going to personalize this. Yes, hypothetically. I hate bachelorette parties. And I know that's like similar to admitting that you don't like dogs. So I'm scared to admit this.

31:47Danielle Bayard Jackson:Dangerous territory. No, I get you. But tell me What is it that has you just so turned off by them? Okay. I travel a lot for work and personally. So to carve out travel for a specific bachelorette feels like a lot for me. Yeah. Because I don't feel like I'm getting a lot out of the experience, which I know is selfish. But like, I don't like a lot of the common activities. You're inviting me to a spa. I'll get on a plane. Yeah. If you're inviting me to wear a penis hat and go out till 3 a.m., I'm not in. But I'm totally cool if that's your vibe. I just don't want to be there and I'd love to show up for you in a different way.

32:31Yes. I actually don't know if I'm navigating this well. What would you say to someone like me? How do you say no? Like when you get that invitation, you see the itinerary. Yeah. How do you manage that? Okay. So one of my really close friends, I actually went because I knew it was really important to her. and I was like this sometimes you need to give in relationship but for friends that I know don't care as much about a bachelorette I'm like listen I this is really tough for me with travel and financially I don't want to upset you if it's very important to you that I'm there I will show up I'd rather show up for you in a different way like if we can go to dinner separately and celebrate et cetera.

33:16And they're usually like, I don't give, you know, and some of my friends even have said to me with the invitation, I know they know me enough to say, I know this isn't your thing, but you're obviously invited, which I really appreciate.

33:28Danielle Bayard Jackson:Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. Bachelorettes are, can be tricky. I think it's because it feels like, okay, I only get one of these. And so, you know, from the perspective of the bride, I only get one of these. This is my time. I've been looking at examples of this for like 30 years. Yeah. This is my turn. And like such grand expectations. But I was once talking to this therapist who specializes in helping women during their wedding season. Because they're so. Wait, what? Kara, the bridal coach, shout out to her. But she was saying, and it was like such brilliant advice. She said that sometimes a bride is so fixated on the vision, she loses sight of the relationships.

34:04Danielle Bayard Jackson:And you were trying to fit those relationships into the vision. And you're going to have to do some soul searching. really you're you're considering ending a friendship because you have a friend who can't make it can't afford it doesn't want to do certain activities that she feels like are compromising for her now you're questioning the entire relationship and i get being disappointed i get having the picture of all my favorite girls in one spot celebrating me at the same time is very romantic is very fun idea but you know you're going to have to call into question like okay, what evidence has this woman given me over the course of our friendship that she's supportive, attentive, down for me?

34:42Danielle Bayard Jackson:Okay. If this is inconsistent with everything else she's done, I'm going to have to just, just be bummed and move on. But I'm sorry. I see too many of these conversations on social that are like, well, she doesn't X, Y, Z. She's not a real friend. And that list is just getting really long and really specific. And the, at the end of the day, whether it's wedding, bridal party, whatever. Does the context of the history of our friendship outweigh this moment where I really want something and she can't make it? I mean, a little nuance, you know? Well, also it feels like in this day and age, it's got, the celebration has gotten really large.

35:20Like it's one thing if you're asking everyone in that city to come to dinner one night versus like travel to New Orleans and meet me there for three days and take off a day of work and buy, you know, like it's just a lot, I think. Yeah.

35:34Danielle Bayard Jackson:I think for the woman in that role, like look at how many barriers are erected during your ask. So if it's commute, time off money, I mean, like you have to really think through those things because their costs, they are financial, whatever. I'm away from my babies for three days. What are all the costs that are required of friends to show up for you? and that's something you got to be kind of practical. I love the part of your book where you talk about weddings. It's like, I don't like everyone needs to read the book because it's just, it's so it was, I savored it. Oh my gosh. Thank you for saying that.

36:09It is. I mean it to my core. It is so freaking great and fun to read. Oh good. Okay. It really made me think one, I want everyone to read the wedding section, but the one thing that stood out to me was you said a lot of friendships end around that time. Why is that?

36:26Danielle Bayard Jackson:You know, it makes me kind of like annoyed when people dismiss wedding stuff as like, oh gosh, here we go with the drama. And it's like, well, yeah, because this is the one time in your life you're expected to put your friendships on display and to rank them. So maybe my whole life I've been thinking I'm like your number one girl. And when you choose somebody else to be the maid of honor, you've got me questioning everything. And I mean, this is client after client I've had these conversations with. We're talking like reasonable women who are like, she didn't choose me. And I don't know if I want to continue the friendship.

37:00Danielle Bayard Jackson:And I don't think it's petty because they're calling into question, wait a second, have I been a fool? I've been thinking we're super tight. And for you to select this other person makes me question my place in your life. And the research does show that mutual prioritization is very important for women. So if I'm your number two girl, I like to feel like, you know, you're my number two girl. It makes me feel good. Yes. And so as soon as you discover that you're like number four, but you've been thinking you're number one, you're trying to kind of gauge what that means. And it's really hard. Do you think wedding parties should be abolished?

37:33I can't tell a woman what to do.

37:35Danielle Bayard Jackson:I will say I am happy to see women leaning into saying, you know what? I'm not going to have a bridal party. I'm just going to skip it. I'm seeing them do that more and I am hearing them report a certain level of joy and freedom and making that decision. So speaking of this bridal party stuff, you cite a study in your book that says that only half of friendships are reciprocal, which I was actually very shocked by that. How do you not get your feelings hurt by a friend that's not reciprocal or doesn't rank us as high as you rank them? I don't know how you not get your feelings hurt because you will get your feelings hurt.

38:13Danielle Bayard Jackson:And I will say, you know, it was a relatively small study, but I will say it matches stories women have shared with me. I'm seeing it reflected in real life. And I mean, just when we think about it, it can be hurtful when we discover this, but your friends' lives have been constructed in such a way over the course of their lifetime that perhaps you're like their number four girl. And I'm saying these numbers very arbitrarily, but perhaps you don't rank as high in her life as you rank her in your life because of how her life's been designed. You have to ask yourself, is it worth me letting it go?

38:49Danielle Bayard Jackson:Because I discovered she doesn't hold me as close as I hold her. Now we're not saying the respect looks, you should feel respect. I feel safe with you. But if I realize my girl is like, kind of has another bestie and it looks like they might be closer than she is with me, I could see that being kind of hurtful, but you have to step back and ask yourself, hold on, if I call her, does she show up? Does she have my back? Do we laugh when we're together? If I need something, she's there. Does she teach me new things? If all of that's in place, I don't know. I've just found more joy in my friendships being able to do that.

39:21Danielle Bayard Jackson:If I had sensed that a friend's kind of close with somebody else and it's like, oh, if when we're together, we're together and we can all partner and have a good time. Can I find a way to not get distracted by the closeness Olympics and instead be able to enjoy away what we do have. Tell me if you find this too in your friendships. I find a lot of things change seasonally. So like, you know, if I'm in the same sort of time of life as my friend, for instance, like I don't have kids yet. My friends that have kids, I see them getting a little closer because they're bonding over different things. And my friends that are single were bonding and one kind of ebbs and flows.

39:57And you don't want to just throw away those friendships because you're in a different season?

40:00Danielle Bayard Jackson:I believe women's lives change more rapidly and drastically than men's lives through the life cycle for a lot of different reasons. But because of that, I think that there are those transitional periods that make us kind of think like, wait, I can't relate to you anymore. What's happening? Everything feels so different and new. And, you know, in those times we have to ask ourselves, like, like give ourselves a little bit of grace because we've never had practice being friends this way. You know, so I think a lot of us go to like, oh my God, it's happening. Like, I can't relate to her. She's not showing up for me.

40:30Danielle Bayard Jackson:Well, she's never had a friend with a baby before. So she doesn't really know, like, what do I do here? What do I even ask about? Maybe she doesn't want to dedicate the brain cells to asking about differences between diaper cream. You know what I'm saying? So I have to be like, okay, she's not going to be as invested in this conversation as I am because it's not her world, but she'd still demonstrates interest, but she can't relate. And what I found is that But if you guys can find a way to figure out, okay, how do we want to be friends in this new stage? I mean, in talking about it, the way you would in a romantic relationship.

41:02Danielle Bayard Jackson:Again, if you sense something changing with your man and be like, okay, babe, what's happening with us? I don't feel connected. What's going on? With the friend, we're like, oh, I guess this is it. Or we're like trying to read subtext in her text. Like, okay, well, she's been acting. We're trying to decode. Same thing. Hey, I feel like since I've had a baby, like you and I feel off. I miss you. I miss you. And I know things are weird, but like, I'm trying to figure out how we can still like stay strong, you know? Like, why can't we normalize doing that with the friends to help her feel called in, to help her feel your top of mind for me?

41:30Danielle Bayard Jackson:I'm acknowledging the change. So it's not like a secret we keep dancing around. It feels weird, right? What are we going to do to stay connected? And the last thing I'll say is something I found to take the pressure off of my friends being able to keep up with my changing lifestyle is having community to supplement those relationships. So if I'm a new mom and I find myself growing increasingly frustrated, but my friends don't get it, maybe I need to be in a mommy group where I can geek out on mommy stuff and I feel seen, I feel affirmed in that very specific way. And now I find myself releasing friends from the expectation to have this knowledge and investment.

42:06Danielle Bayard Jackson:So as long as they're demonstrating care and affirming that identity, like I recognize your mom, then can I find a way to just manage expectations? That is so proactive and awesome. I love that idea. Like go search for what you're looking for instead of putting all of the expectations on one person. Correct. That's fabulous because we don't do that in romantic relationships either, right? Like if you're dating someone who doesn't like golf, you're not like going to necessarily make them golf. Right. Okay. You say we are only trying to answer the same two questions when it comes to friendships.

42:41What are they?

42:42Danielle Bayard Jackson:so we're trying to ask you know can i love fully here and who is going to love me fully like i want to love and i want to be loved and you know we get into the details which are important because we need to know the day-to-day business of friendship but essentially you're only asking those two questions ever if it's a question about like texting and she doesn't text me as much as i or she didn't show up for my thing and does she you're really asking about does she love me as much as I love her. You know, does she love me? Am I overinvested in this? I mean, really, it's always strips down to trying to answer those two questions.

43:18Danielle Bayard Jackson:And I feel like keeping that in mind will help us when there is conflict, because we get caught in those details. Essentially, you need to, you're trying to be reassured. She cares as much as I do. And I am safe to love freely here. It's always that. And I feel like it's just something to cling to when you find yourself losing sight of like, okay, well, she was late two times, but you know, or she didn't respond to my story, but she is like active on social, but she didn't respond. When we get into that, it's really because you're starting to be suspicious that she's in love you as much as you love her or that your love's being taken for granted.

43:51Danielle Bayard Jackson:It's the same two things. And so I would just advise any woman who's feeling caught up in the ups and downs of this week's scenario. If you got honest with yourself, is it really about those two things? And then what can you do to go and get some security for those two questions. I love how no matter what I come at you with, you have a zoomed out perspective of what this relationship is. And it really gives people so much grace. Oh, I'm so glad. And you know what? Honestly, I think it's because like keeping it real, I've been on both sides. And I think the feedback that I hear from people that I really appreciate the most is when people say like, gosh, you're never really vilifying one person or the other.

44:32Danielle Bayard Jackson:And I don't want to be the girl who's like, I mean, I see both sides. I see both sides. But essentially, like, yes, I've been the friend who's disappointed people. I've been the friend who's been disappointed. It's just too easy to vilify the girl who didn't show up to the thing or who doesn't text back or who canceled plans with you to go with her man. Like, that's annoying. But it's too easy to be like, fake friend. She's a fake friend. She's a person who's going to make choices to disappoint you. And you're going to have to figure out, OK, is this happening so frequently that I don't feel safe here?

45:02Danielle Bayard Jackson:But as far as the she's fake, so I'm done with her. It's just too easy and it's reductive.

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45:55Cars.com has you covered. A variety of tools and badges are used to help shoppers understand the price of a vehicle and find the best deal. And every review is written by a real person, reflecting a real life experience. So don't take any chances. Do car shopping the easy way. Start your search with cars.com. Where to next? This is Danielle Robay from Question Everything. You know me, I've always got a lot going on. I'm moving, I'm working, I'm traveling, I'm juggling, and somehow trying to make it all look effortless, right? Well, that means one thing. If I'm wearing it, it has to be comfortable.

46:30It has to be breathable and easy. I lean into natural fabrics. That's why I keep reaching for cotton. It's soft and cozy and somehow always feels right. My favorite designers love working with it, so looking polished without sacrificing comfort is pretty much built into the deal. Athleisure, cotton. Loungewear, cotton. And is there anything more versatile than a great cotton t-shirt? The answer is no, there just isn't. Cotton keeps you cool when you're on the go, cozy when you're winding down, and comfortable through everything in between. It makes it easy to feel like the best version of yourself.

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48:22When I was growing up, I had really high expectations of friends because I was always like 10 going on 35. Like, I feel like I'm 33 and like, I'm, I'm finally at the level with all my friends. Like we all have the same expectations now. But when I was younger, I had like, I wanted them to be loyal. And I was, I had very high expectations. And my dad would always be like Danielle, different friends for different reasons. And I could never get it because I wanted somebody to be all the things. I've grown up to realize different friends for different reasons is a really great mantra. When do you know when it is time to release a friend?

48:58How do you know if it's... I have a hard time, I think all women do, throwing away friendships, especially if there's history there. When do you know it is time to let go?

49:09Danielle Bayard Jackson:Sometimes there are the egregious, obvious ones that we know of. if a person's constantly lying, you know, things like that. So it goes back to that trust and safety that we talked about. If a friend is talking about you, like I'm nice with you, but then I'm saying things to tear you down. So we know some of the obvious ones, right? She does something so explicitly hurtful. You're like, we can't keep doing this. I think the ones that feel a little more tender and gray are, okay, I do love her, but I also feel like I don't have the energy to put into it anymore. And I think the main driving force of this friendship is the history.

49:42Danielle Bayard Jackson:You know, so it becomes like an obligatory friendship like oh she's been here 20 years I mean, it'll be messed up Even though I find myself not relating to her not caring to call to get the life updates anymore I just i'm kind of like meh I think those are harder to figure out And honestly, I think the first sign that like maybe it should end is if you're constantly wondering If you should end it yeah might be one sign, you know And then also making sure it's not a matter of you know She held you accountable for something or you're just you guys are facing conflict So being able to differentiate, is this whole thing coming to a close?

50:16Danielle Bayard Jackson:Or am I uncomfortable with this weird season we're in of having some tension over this thing? You have to be able to tell the difference. But I know that it's really hard when women do arrive to the conclusion of like, I think this is done. And knowing how to articulate that because it feels risky. I was debating whether I was going to ask you this or not on camera, but I'm going to go for it. I had a friend that I've been friends with since I was like 10 years old who did an egregious thing. My boyfriend like in 2017 broke up with me and we were still living together. And one night he didn't come home.

50:54And I was beside myself. I was going through, I was like Carrie and Sex and the City, like going through Berger's whole apartment. I was looking at everything. Couldn't find anything. He wouldn't answer my calls. And this friend is always up early. And I said, you know what? I'm just going to drive to her house. It's like six blocks away because it's early and I need to like climb in bed with her and just like, I can't be alone. I'm freaking out. You have me on the edge of my seat right now. So I, I drive to her apartment and she has two windows beside her door and I'd knock on the door, no answer.

51:31So I look through the window and they're on the couch. They're not touching, but they're on the couch together. And neither of them had been answering my calls. So I was heartbroken for a lot of reasons, right? Yeah. I was actually more heartbroken by her than him because, right? I had no, at that point, I didn't have as many expectations from him or with him. She and I are still friends. I love her deeply. I do not trust her the same way. And all of my other friends cannot believe that we are still friends. It was not a relationship I was willing to let go of. I still hold on to it a little bit.

52:15In your expert opinion, what do you think?

52:21Danielle Bayard Jackson:Wow. Okay. I'll say this. you see that you hear the ambulance i feel like it was on cue please yeah a friendship emergency so i get a lot of messages that are like essay style should i end it or not and i know this might not be satisfying but i always say like girl at the end of the day i'm not here to qualify your friendships i see my role as offering things for you to consider as you make that decision but to be like, yeah, I basically everything you said ends that, you know what I'm saying? But if you have determined, hey, that was a weird moment. We talked about it. Something I'm not sure.

53:00Danielle Bayard Jackson:But when I look at what value this offers me and the discomfort or whatever damage that was done and I weigh them out, it for me offers more value than it does pain or disappointment. That is for you to decide. And if there was discomfort and it was disruptive and you all are finding or have found ways to kind of repair or mend, that's your business. You know, even if your friends who love you are like, let that go. If you have determined it offers more value than pain or disappointment or discomfort, then that is for you to decide. And if you both are showing up intentionally pouring into it to grow, to repair whatever ruptures emerged, that is for you to decide.

53:42Yeah. I felt like it was not of her character. So I was okay, But it's I appreciate that perspective. I really like that.

53:49Danielle Bayard Jackson:Yeah. And I and I hear that because, you know, I've been through something and I shared a story in the book that I like deleted and put back in and deleted and put back in because I was like, OK, I like to look like I have it together where I made choices. I don't want to give it up. That friends were like, that's not cool and was embarrassed, was like mortified. And so I that's why I say I can see both sides. But what I love is what you just said of like, it was so not her that I was like, okay, when I look at things whole picture, it's something I still want to fight for. And so I respect that.

54:20Danielle Bayard Jackson:Fighting for friendships. Yeah, there you go. What are behaviors to adopt to become a better friend? I saw in one of your TikToks, you say we should work on expressing platonic desire more. Yeah. Like, what does that mean, platonic desire? What does that look like? So we all want to feel desired. Like, even platonically. I want to know that my friends are somewhere like, yeah, I miss Danielle. Like, it feels good. Right. But I think we I often say, like, even the word romance, if you look up the definition, it says something about like, you know, to delight and like curiosity. So to some extent, how can you have a little romance in your friendships?

54:56Danielle Bayard Jackson:I'm thinking of you. You look so pretty in this picture. I'm taking you out tomorrow. Like, you know, in a safe and appropriate way. But how can I give myself permission to actively express how much I want you in my life? how much I appreciate you. Instead of doing things like, oh my God, like you should know. We've been friends for so long. Yes. It is so fun to spoil your girlfriend and to feel spoiled by your girlfriends. I agree. There's something about that. That's very cool. Yeah. Do you have any advice for ambitious people? I feel like my ambitious friends all talk about this issue. They care so deeply about their friendships because they are ambitious about friendship And they are also overwhelmed by what is required to be a great friend and build whatever it is they're doing.

55:45Danielle Bayard Jackson:So I hear you saying for women who are like either managers or entrepreneurs, like high achieving women and friendship, how do they kind of like balance that? Yeah, I mean, I guess it could be also for people who are moms, right? Like that's a really exhausting role. How do you balance? When you are an overworked, underpaid person, which so many of us are, how do you balance friendship and everything you have going on? Yeah. Okay. That's such a great question because I know so many of us feel that way. I want to be a good friend, but I don't know if I have it in me. First thing I'll say is burnout is real, where we feel so overwhelmed with the volume of demand in our lives that we feel like we don't have it to give.

56:31Danielle Bayard Jackson:So I want to start there because I know women have that heart. I want to show up, but I don't think I even can. And I want to validate that. I will also say, I think it's helpful to reframe what you think a good friend is, because if for you, it is a lot of gestures and a lot of going out and a lot of, then you are going to say, okay, I don't think I have all that to give. And I will, I like to think that a lot of us can increase being a good friend by just like one degree by being active on the things you already think about. Because a lot of us, we do think about our friends often, or we see something that comes to mind.

57:05Danielle Bayard Jackson:I think being active on the things you already do would be a big, like a huge step and require less lift. So for example, if I'm in Target and I see something and it reminds me of her, like to snap a picture and send it. I mean, like really on the spot, but for the person receiving it, it's such like a, oh, like you don't even have to buy it for them. Just snap a photo. So I love that. I mean, really, that's it. Because again, it goes to those questions of like, do you care about me? So to know that today I crossed your mind or to like activate a memory, which nostalgia is really powerful and bonds people.

57:36Danielle Bayard Jackson:So even to snap a picture of a mug and be like, oh my God, this reminds me of spring break 2002. I keep like, oh my God, I know. You know, so, but just that moment, like it's like, it's a reminder of like me and you alone in this vault, right? Like our private little bubble. And so those things activate it. And then if you do feel like you're coming into a season where you're overwhelmed to even front load it. Like I care enough to tell you I'm going to be out of commission for a while. So to even say like, I'm starting to feel really overwhelmed with all the mom stuff. And I just want you to know, like, even if I'm not texting you, I'm thinking of you.

58:07Danielle Bayard Jackson:And if you guys go out and I can't make it, like I want to be there. I just need you to know that. I mean, that right there is like, OK, you care about me. Yeah. And so, I mean, even if you don't have it to give, I think telling friends, I want to be there for you. It's important to me to show up for you. those conversations help people to feel safe seen and supported it's not all the little like then know her 20 for coffee and sometimes cinder flower like i it's it's those are really cute gestures but also it's the simple things it's asking about an update she shared with you last week that is a big one i hear that often for women is like i don't know i feel like she doesn't care like she didn't even ask me about it i told her about xyz she hasn't even asked since i mean literally being like unprompted.

58:51Danielle Bayard Jackson:Hey, you mentioned that thing with your dad last week, everything good. Just that. It shows me you were attentive. You care enough to ask. You're invested in my life. So rethink what being a good friend means and how much activity, hours, and money is associated with the image that comes to your mind. And can you do a little rethinking of what it looks like to show up? One of the things that I love or that at least resonates with me, what I'm hearing you say is to say the things that are unsaid. Yeah. That is really powerful. Yeah. But we've got to have the permission because we do in every other place and it feels weird or women are like, okay, does that look thirsty?

59:28Danielle Bayard Jackson:Or it feels vulnerable because if you don't know if she feels the same way, does it feel very vulnerable to like lean into looking in her eyes and being like, ah, but I mean, I just, I know I appreciate it when friends are like, hey, thank you so much for yesterday. It's just like, I feel so connected to them. That is so beautiful. Okay. Meeting new friends after school, whether it's high school, college, this is a question that I get most often. Oh, I'm always like, join a group, join a volleyball team. I hate volleyball. I don't know. But like, you have great advice on this. What should people do when they are adults and trying to make friends?

1:00:08That is definitely the number one question I get.

1:00:10Danielle Bayard Jackson:And I get it, but I'll say it typically comes with some kind of qualifier. So people want to know how do I make friends after college in a new city as a new mom as a divorcee and I hope that it shows us that we will always be having to make new friends so we better figure it out and I like to lean into that because a lot of women feel shame that they're even in that position oh I should already have my friend group I'm 35 I'm stop it and the research tells us that we replace about half of our friends every seven years which says to me that we should expect some level of pruning like a natural process of people coming out and then the churn bringing new people in.

1:00:47Danielle Bayard Jackson:So we better figure out how to make them because it's going to keep happening. When your husband dies and your kids get out the house, I mean, like you're going to have to start over. So there are free things I can give. I love that you're a dark. I'm like, no, when your husband dies and you're like, oh my God, I need new friends. Obviously we'll outlive them. That's what it's saying. Because obviously he won't be here long. So you're going to need to know. But yeah. Okay. So I can give you free things, right? So the first I would say is to get comfortable leveraging technology. And I feel like Gen Z is very open to this.

1:01:15Danielle Bayard Jackson:And the rest of us are like, I don't know. It doesn't make you desperate. It makes you very resourceful. And so apps like Bumble for friends I know is very popular. And if you have unconventional work hours, if you are in a new city and you're looking for like, where's the diversity at or whatever it is, I can go into this place, show what I'm looking for in this particular vicinity and find my people. So it kind of expedites the process of finding your people. The one thing I'll say with that is you need to get into real life as soon as possible. So this whole we're DMing for three months, we're not doing that.

1:01:46Danielle Bayard Jackson:OK, it looks like we click. She has good rapport. Let's meet in real life. The second thing I would say is to become a regular somewhere. So a lot of us like romanticize how things used to be when we were in school and it was so much easier. It's because we were clocking hours together because I saw your face all the time. You're the option. So let's sit together at lunch, you know, and it also lends itself to something known is the mere exposure effect. And the idea is that we tend to prefer people just because we're familiar. So if I see a familiar face and a totally new face, I'm going to lean to the one I've kind of seen before.

1:02:16Danielle Bayard Jackson:So how can you make that work in your favor? Can I work from the same coffee shop every Friday at nine? Can I walk my dog in the same area every day, you know, being mindful of safety and things, but those things make you a regular and it feels less intimidating to be like, Hey, what's up? Cause I see your face all the time. Yeah. And the last thing I'll say is leverage the support of super connectors. So you probably are one. I know I'm one. Like we're those girls who are like, oh my God, you should meet my friend. So-and-so that person, even if you two aren't close, we probably know that girl, right?

1:02:48Danielle Bayard Jackson:That girl. And so it's just like, how can you ask her, you know, send a message that says something like, I'm looking to get more plugged in. And I thought of you because you're always out and about and doing something interesting. So I thought I would ask, do you know of any events around town that you think are worth checking out or any groups I should like getting involved in. And the average person is happy to help. Like that's flattering. You thought I could help you. And best case scenario, you even get an invitation to be a plus one. So they might say, oh yeah, oh my God, I'm in a book club.

1:03:16Danielle Bayard Jackson:You should come. But you can't expect to get the need met if you will not make the need known. It's really, really well said. So good. Okay. Last question. You outline a specific type of friend that people are going to encounter. I want a rundown of these archetypes. The first is the flaky friend. Who's she? She sounds annoying. Well, I know because I've been her. No, the girl who you can't really rely on her. So if she says, I'll be there at 10 or if she says, okay, I'll send you that link or okay. And there's a party that's like, she's probably not going to. And some people see it's quirky and they're like, I'm not bothered by it.

1:03:57Danielle Bayard Jackson:But others are very bothered by it because it feels like she doesn't care. It feels disrespectful of her time, of your time. And so it's something you have to negotiate because sometimes again, we'll be like, oh, well, she bailed on lunch. So I don't know. I'm just done with her. Have I ever said, girl, I love spending time with you. And when you cancel, like it messes up the rest of my day. Like I carved out time to make this happen. You know, you can negotiate. But if she hears that and it's still like, well, I'm sorry. Like that's just who I am, who I am. Then you would have to figure out if that's something you can work with.

1:04:30Danielle Bayard Jackson:The clingy friend. Yes. Who's she? The clingy friend. We all know that friend, you know, she wants more than you can give it feels. It feels like the skills are imbalanced. You might experience this as a lot of text messages, a lot of bids for attention more than you look faster than you can keep up with. She may express, you know, jealousy over seeing you hang out with other girls instead of her, things like that. They make you feel a little suffocated and overwhelmed. You know, I know people are very familiar with attachment styles. It's either that you're experiencing her as clingy because she is very anxious and eager or because you're avoidant.

1:05:09Danielle Bayard Jackson:So it feels clingy to you because you only want to talk like once every three months. And she's like, can I talk to you like once a week? You know, so again, negotiating is the key. So how can I tell her, you know, not that she's too much because we want to be careful about causing other women complexes and damaging them in the process. So I'm going to be careful over you. I'm not going to tell you you're too much. But I might say, hey, I prefer to catch up on weekends. So I'm probably not going to be good with like the daily text messages. Right. What day works for you? Like a Saturday or Sunday?

1:05:38So you want to communicate your own limitations. Correct. Instead of like, you just do too much. Or like, it's like a little too much for me.

1:05:45Danielle Bayard Jackson:You know, it gives people like, so to say like, hey, I'm a little more low key with check-ins. They're not as frequent for me. That's kind of like my sweet spot. So do you just want to meet up, you know, every other weekends? you know or if she sees you with other friends and it's like oh i thought you were busy but you're yeah no when i say i'm busy i mean like you know it's important to me that i see all my friends and i'm trying to rotate everybody in and spend family time and so that probably won't let us do like back-to-back weekends but i definitely want to see that movie with you that we're talking about oh my god can we please go next month because i can't wait to see with you you know there's a term that someone taught me called light and bright oh and i try and harness that and you do it so much because what you're saying is like, say it all with a positive spin.

1:06:28Yeah. Like just say that movie. I really want to see that with you. Yeah. You know, light and bright. Yeah, totally. Okay. The last one is the negative friend.

1:06:36Danielle Bayard Jackson:Yes. Who's she? Some of us know her very well, right? And it can come in different forms. Negative in terms of, okay, everything sucks in my life all the time. It can be negative in terms of being really critical of your choices. She always has something to say and you didn't ask. And she's telling you how it doesn't measure up. So that negativity we can experience in a lot of different ways. This is so tricky because one of the reasons we value our friendship so much is because we do have a space to be like, oh my God, the world, the patriarchy. And you have somebody who's like, oh my God, I know.

1:07:09Danielle Bayard Jackson:And one of the benefits of friendship is I have somebody to take my troubles too. The thing though, is that if we expect that your friend should be your therapist, I know some people say she is my therapist. I get it, but they're not though. And I can help you through some things, but you cannot expect me to have the skills and availability of a therapist. It's not fair to me. I'm your friend, not your counselor. And so we have to manage that. And then finally I'll say, you know, the Gottmans who are like relationship OGs, you know, They often say that successful relationships have a positivity to negativity ratio of five to one.

1:07:44Danielle Bayard Jackson:So for every negative interaction, you need like five positives to override it just because of how much we weigh negative interactions. So if you took a if you got in a helicopter and looked out, you know, over your friendship landscape, how many of the last 10 interactions were negative? That's all I'm saying. I was just thinking about that with a friend. I was like, I'm always drained when I leave this phone call. and I was like at first I thought well I think I'm providing more value than I'm getting in this relationship but I don't really like looking at friendships that way and I think what I really felt was the five to one yeah so I like that point yeah like we're here because it's it is a totally elective relationship at the end of the day you're not a person I signed a government contract to marry you're not my child like I'm choosing to be here so yes use me when you need me you know for something hard and to go through hardship with you.

1:08:37Danielle Bayard Jackson:But it's got to have some degree of fun and pleasure and lightness. That's why we're friends. It brings joy and pleasure to my life as well. And so it's just easy. It's really easy to kind of co-ruminate and to talk about our boss sucks. Like if we're work besties. Yeah. But at some point somebody needs to say, okay, let's give ourselves 10 minutes and then like, let's go get ice cream because I'm so over talking about it. It's not dismissive. It's sometimes light and bright. Yeah. It's light and bright. That's right.

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1:10:09Start your search with cars.com. Where to next? This is Danielle Robay from Question Everything. You know me, I've always got a lot going on. I'm moving, I'm working, I'm traveling, I'm juggling, and somehow trying to make it all look effortless, right? Well, that means one thing. If I'm wearing it, it has to be comfortable. It has to be breathable and easy. I lean into natural fabrics. That's why I keep reaching for cotton. It's soft and cozy and somehow always feels right. My favorite designers love working with it, so looking polished without sacrificing comfort is pretty much built into the deal.

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1:11:25She said she loved the culture. It was a family atmosphere. I went to visit the campus. The facilities were amazing. I knew before I left that that was the school that I was going to attend. Rasmussen University. Are you ready to be your own hero online and on campus? Learn more at rasmussen.edu. How's the new plays? Get your Wi-Fi figured out? I got T-Mobile 5G home internet, and I'm loving it. It's the fastest 5G home internet. My old provider was so slow. Mine is slow. And only 35 bucks a month. Do I need to try this? Try it for 15 days. Love it or get your money back. I love it already. There are over 250 reasons to join T-Mobile.

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1:12:19okay rapid fire Danielle what is your favorite activity to do solo read love that you were meant to be on this podcast your favorite activity to do with friends

1:12:34Danielle Bayard Jackson:oh sit on the back patio and run our mouths we don't have to go anywhere we don't have to like give a big tip to servers we can just like sit run our mouths in a low key space and that's just Like that's my favorite thing. Me too. I want to be on someone's couch. Yes. Love that. You're in Florida, so you could be on a back patio. Yes, exactly. Okay. A routine habit that keeps you sane. I like to journal in the mornings. I know that's not like revolutionary, but it does work for me. It works to wake up, to pray, to spend some alone time, and to just kind of get those first thoughts out has been really helpful.

1:13:11Your book dedication. I'm obsessed with book dedications. I feel like this is your first book. There's a lot of like, who and what do I dedicate this to? How did you come up with yours?

1:13:23Danielle Bayard Jackson:Yeah, so mine was, you know, to all the girls I've loved before, because the book is about fighting for it when you have something good. And I know that there are friendships that I ended prematurely, because I didn't know better or because I was stubborn or unequipped to like have hard conversations. And so sometimes, you know, I, you know, have thought about them in terms of like the one that got away friendship wise. And so this book is everything that I've learned and just kind of like my dedication to the girls that could have maybe still been in my life if I knew better. Why'd you get emotional when you said that?

1:14:03Did you think about someone in particular?

1:14:05Danielle Bayard Jackson:Yeah, I just, you know, I think I have to do the work in my brain to say, you know what, I learned lessons from it and I can grow and apply that moving forward. And I do think I have current friends who would say, Danielle's a good friend, but it's because I've been a bad one. So I, of course, I'm learning. And now I'm like, okay, I got this. But it's because I've been stubborn or I've been a chameleon or I've been too sassy, too hard, too cold. I've been all those things. And so sometimes I feel like it's kind of like the ghost of Christmas past when you're like, or ghost of Christmas future.

1:14:41Danielle Bayard Jackson:So I feel like I'm telling women like, trust me, if you continue to be hard or cold or you don't get your self-esteem together and so you tolerate mistreatment, all those things are going to cost you healthy, satisfying friendships. And so at the heart of all of this is like doing your own self work so that you can be in good relationships. And I'm glad that I'm figuring it out. But it has cost me some along the way. As somebody who had a hard time with vulnerability in the past, thank you for sharing that and for being so vulnerable. I thought your whole book was very vulnerable. Not just your own stories, but how you wrote it.

1:15:24Because I feel emotional now. Every girl that reads this book will take a look in the mirror and think about all the girls that they've loved before. And all the girls they will still love in the future. And friendships are really tricky and beautiful and all of the things. And I just think you're going to help a lot of people with this book.

1:15:46Danielle Bayard Jackson:Oh, I appreciate you so much. That is my prayer always is that for the woman who's holding it, you know, I can't say that this will be the book that solves all your problems. But I really do hope that it helps you confront some things and it helps you to more freely love other women and that it brings healing to women who need, you know, some encouragement. So that's the prayer always. Okay, my last three questions that I ask everybody. A book you read that changed your life, something you think everybody should read. Ooh, there is a book called The Relationship Principles of Jesus. and it's just nice to see these portraits of, okay, how did he talk to people?

1:16:29Danielle Bayard Jackson:How did he forgive? How did he share truth? And it is definitely life-changing. I'll also say the book Platonic by Dr. Marissa Franco is like crazy awesome and I think everybody should read it. I'm gonna give you these 52 questions if you can pick one randomly. Oh gosh, okay, I knew this was coming. This one says, what do you want to be known for? Oh, I like that one for you. Very on brand. I would say I want to be known for helping people see friendship differently. I think that's my most flattering compliment is when people say like, wow, I never thought about it that way. That makes me feel really good.

1:17:11So I hope to bring that experience to women through the book. Danielle, what's the smartest decision you've ever made?

1:17:20Danielle Bayard Jackson:Oh, I think for me personally, I think having children, which was a very conscious choice. Do we want to do this? And it's brought a lot of joy to my life. And I'm so glad we made that decision. When did you do it for the first time? I think I was like 31 at the time. So my children are now five and two. And it's just really cool. And I'm, you know, I'm learning a lot of things through them that they are their own people and they have their own personalities and interests. and I'm just learning a lot by watching them every day. So I'm really glad that we linked into parenthood because it's taught me a lot and shaped me as a woman.

1:17:57I have to give you a hug. This was my favorite conversation in so long. Really? Yes. Oh my gosh. I appreciate you. Thank you so much.

1:18:10Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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1:19:54All rights reserved. Redeemed money back guarantee within 30 days of cancellation. My name is Arnold Bogarty, and prior to me, I enrolled in Rasmussen to become a nurse. I spent 16 years in the military, 12 in special forces as an Army Green Beret, and I was recommended to Rasmussen by a former student. She said she loved the culture. It was a family atmosphere. year. I went to visit the campus. The facilities were amazing. I knew before I left that that was the school that I was going to attend. Rasmussen University. Are you ready to be your own hero online and on campus? Learn more at rasmussen.edu.

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