Jenna Lyons & Erin Lichy on Style, Shabbat, and Surviving Real Housewives

27:04And I was like so honored to be working with them. And the team left, right and center, everyone was amazing. So I never had to like be one of those bosses who had to sit down and like it just never happened. So I didn't really understand. But I remember really distinctly, you know, I would interview people. And I remember this woman came from HR. HR was on the 11th floor and my office was on the 14th floor. So you had to walk up. If you came up the back, it was easier than going all the way around. so they would walk up the stairs the back and I remember this woman got to my office and she was panting and I said are you okay and she said I'm just so nervous and walking up the stairs and I was like just sit for a minute I'm gonna go and I'm gonna answer a couple things and I'll come back and I'll give you a couple minutes to sit and I came back and she was sitting there and she was sweating and she was like I'm just so nervous and I think it's like when you touch a corner office a big job a president title all of a sudden people make assumptions about you they have nothing to do with who you are.

27:57They're just how they view. And I think the way that women, particularly women in power, are portrayed in the media is that they are bitches. So you're kind of fighting against something that you had nothing to do with putting in place. So I think I've always been sort of pushing against that. I mean, we met at Erin's dinner. Can I share a story of what you did? You were so sweet. So a lot of the people at the dinner knew people and I was new. And at one point And I was just kind of like sitting by myself eating because people were chatting. I'm fine. Bad host, Erin. Not at all. I'm fine. But Jenna saw me and went out of her way and said to the person next to her, like, let's include, like, let's open the conversation.

28:36And I think that says so much about who she is. You didn't have to do that. Like, I can't even imagine you would be mean in a corner. No, same. Not at all. That's wild. Yeah. I think it had less to do with me and more to do with the idea of a woman who has a title like that is probably a bitch. I think it is more to do with that than I think. And I think also the tight pulled back hair and glasses didn't help. And you know, like that would never happen with a male boss. Absolutely. Ever. Was that a choice? Were you like creating a brand? Not at all. I started wearing my hair because after I had my son, when I was breastfeeding, every time I had my hair down, he would grab it and pull on it.

29:11And so I started putting it up because it was just too much. The glasses just came from I needed them to read, but I had to walk around four floors. It was a full city block. So I was walking around all day long and always on my phone and I would look up and be on my BlackBerry when it first started. And I kept falling up the stairs, meaning I was going up the stairs and I would miss a step and slide down. Because when you have readers on, it focuses for your reading. And then I would look up and I would misjudge. And after the third time I fell up the stairs, I was like, I have to get bifocals.

29:40And once you have bifocals, I just wore them all the time. So it just kind of happened. The two things happened at the same time. And then the red lip just came from looking really dead and tired one day. And the makeup artist, he's like, let's just brighten you up and put a bunch of blush and red lip on me. And like that picture, whatever happened, that one photograph became one that people really loved and kept using over. And it just kind of happened. It wasn't me trying to create a brand. I was so a girl at that point too. And I wasn't gay at this point. So I was girly and trying to be what I thought men wanted.

30:07And so, you know, the long hair, you know, definitely not a red lip, definitely not calculated. That's interesting to know that it was by accident. Jenna, you've wanted to work in fashion since you were in seventh grade, I read. How has your relationship to the fashion business changed over time? Are you still in love with it? I think what I was always in love with was clothes. And I still am. It wasn't the business. I didn't know what the business was. I just loved sequins and flannel. And I didn't understand the business part of it when I was young. I just wanted to make things. And I liked the transformation that clothes can deliver, like the way they can make you feel.

30:43you know and that's what drew me to that part of it I wasn't interested in the industry per se my relationship with it has changed and I'm not a part of it in the way I was and that's really okay with me like I had my moment and I'm really grateful to be able to do something and have a second act you know particularly at my age it's not something I ever expected but it's been great how do you guys know when something has run its course business wise I think you kind of just know I mean sometimes it tells you from the outside I did. I paid money. Yeah. Get out of it. We had kind of a crazy thing happen.

31:15There was no choice. I didn't. It would not have been prudent to keep going. And I had to make a decision. And sometimes it's gut. Sometimes it's the business itself. I mean. Sometimes it's both. In my case, it was both. For your handbag line yourself? I knew it wasn't going to work out. And also just the business was telling me that it was no longer a viable option at all. And do you ever feel like it's not going to work out? Like, for instance, with the handbags, it's not going to work out because you didn't care enough to make it work out? Like this is not where my passion lies. I think both.

31:45I think after a while I started realizing like a couple of years in that like this wasn't for me. And I think also just like it was a really hard business, like leather handbags. It's a really hard business. Like you need to have a connection in the fashion world. I think most designers now really either they're incredibly talented and it's an unusual unicorn or like they're being fed into the fashion world. It's also, it's unusual. And the handbag business in this country is so status driven. So they are often drafting off of an apparel line. So in absence of that, it requires you to do so much to be able to compete.

32:22And sometimes that's the moment where it's like a zeitgeist moment where someone wears it and that kind of changes things. But if you're just doing it on your own, it's just so hard to break through. And we did have those moments where people would wear them and it was in the press and some of the bags were really beautiful. But then I had to make minimum and then I was moved over to China and I didn't know what I was doing. So I was making all these bags sitting on inventory, literally the kiss of death in business, sitting on inventory that's not moving, figuring out where to sell it. Like it was really hard, but we learned everything of what not to do.

32:53And it was really the best experience, honestly. Because now you know what to do and what to look for. So much so. I mean, Abe was doing the business with me. And when we decided to start Mescaloom, like we really knew what we were doing. Like we really knew what we were doing. We were raising money, not putting our own money into it. We knew who to hire. We knew when to ask for help. We knew what we needed and we knew what we didn't. We knew where to spend the money. It just felt different. And you can only learn that by doing it. I really don't think you can learn it at school. I think that's so true.

33:22This idea of a business not working, I think people don't realize when you look at people who are entrepreneurial and who do things, everyone has had one in their pocket. There's not a single person I know who has done something and succeeded who hasn't taken a risk and failed. If you don't fail, you don't learn. And there's nothing wrong with it. But there's this weird kind of connotation around like, oh, it didn't work out. It's like, yeah, but I learned a lot. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Almost every single master class I would listen to in the very beginning of having my business, like the first one, people were saying, trust your gut and failure is good.

33:53And these are like, you know, CEOs of big companies that were saying this and I remember feeling like okay if this does fail it's okay and that's when I was finally able to let go of it I think when I was doing a raise you start to talk to people who are in that business who are used to people raising money and what's so interesting is that they're just so used to things like they're saying I've invested in 10 things to have popped and you're like okay right people expect things don't all go smoothly and I think we particularly I know as women like have this incredible desire to not fail you want to prove yourself.

34:25You feel like it's more important for me. When I had to close Love Zena, there was like a shame attached to it. And then once I got through it, I was like, why am I doing this myself? Because there was nothing I could have done to change the outcome. Like it wasn't because I wasn't passionate. It wasn't because I didn't love it. It was a manufacturing and then a situation that happened that I couldn't undo and the fix would take too long. We don't have to go into it too deeply, but I made a choice that I thought was the right one. I made a choice to make the packaging out of bagasse, which is sugarcane pulp.

34:51And long story short, we had a huge order and the order was set to deliver right when the show was supposed to launch. And the factory had stored the product in an unclimatized space because they'd only ever wrapped things in plastic. And the product grew mold and they couldn't ship it. And so then it was late. And then our biggest account, which was Target, who placed a massive order that we had already paid for. Long story short, they kept saying, we're going to fix it, we're going to fix it. And Target was like, we can't work like this. It took more than four months for the product to end up being ready.

35:20And they were like, this doesn't work. And then we lost our biggest account. And I knew that I couldn't make up the difference in that volume. I would have had to have 700 accounts to make up for that volume and then hire a bunch of people to actually service them. That was just not happening. It was also a slow heartbreak. Like I just kept thinking it was going to be OK. It was going to be OK. It was going to be OK. And it just wasn't. And finally, I had to make a call and be like, this is not like I was just literally it was on life support. And you know what's beautiful about you telling the story now is that failure can happen at any point.

35:50Like here you are, a very successful businesswoman. You've had many successes and, you know, many wins. And then you started a business and it didn't work out even now. And that's OK. And I think that what you just said earlier is like you start to realize all the places where I could have tuned in. I probably should have grown a little slower.

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38:12superfans in the digital age. Ferrari fans and superfans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community, and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team. You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history. And now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions. When it comes to fan engagement, It's really digital technology and digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans. To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit ibm.com slash Ferrari.

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39:33I think that both of you, when I look at your career trajectories, you've both bet on yourselves a lot. And sometimes in ways that could be scary, even joining the show, you were kind of going in blind. That's a bet on yourself. Is there a moment in your life where you feel like you bet on yourself before anybody else did? Just every day. I would be lying if I said that I think when I was younger, I wasn't betting on myself. I was betting on working hard. I never in a million years thought I would have the career in life I've had. Never. I thought I was going to be a designer and I was just hopeful that I would make over$100 ,000 a year and be able to afford to buy a house someday.

40:08Like I just didn't think that I was going to get that. I didn't come from money. I didn't dream that way because I didn't see it and I didn't think it was possible. And again, I grew up in a small town far away from New York. There was no internet. So I didn't know what all the options were. I just was like, I knew about designers. I knew that there was Donna Karan and Liz Claiborne and Calvin Klein and was like, could I be one of them? And I didn't think I'd get famous, but I just wanted to make clothes. So I don't know if I was betting on myself. I think I was just like, I'm going to work as hard as I can and hopefully have fun along the way.

40:37And it turned out better than I expected. When did your ambition start to feel like it was crystallizing? It's little things that happen when you're young, like the first promotion and someone saying you're doing a really good job and you're like, oh, maybe I actually am OK. Like, maybe I'm good at this because it's one thing to be good at it and like it. It's another thing for it to actually be financially viable. And there is a real nuance to that. You know, there's a lot of people who are incredibly creative, but can't turn that into something. And so I think when the mix of seeing the work or things that I had developed or made be successful and, you know, be one of the best selling items, it's like people who are voting for you, loving your product as a customer is really, I mean, I remember distinctly standing in the middle of JFK airport when I just landed and standing at baggage claim and there must have been like seven double cloth coats which is a coat that I designed and found the fabric developed the fabric the whole nine yards and I remember just seeing all these women wearing the coat and they all looked great and I was so proud it was really nice that's a great feeling that's where you start to think like oh it's rewarding it's like the ambition comes from feeling like you can actually achieve something and seeing it play out in real time and that's exciting that's why I like making things it is very nice to be able to produce something like having a book, something so you can share with people.

41:53I did that, you know, and I can even see when we were at a dinner party recently and Erin was talking about Hermes Callum. She's like, that's mine. And your face lights up. And it's like nice when you have this thing that you've made. It's really a very different experience than working in finance, you know, where you don't have something as physical. I think it's because we're creative. And it's like when you can envision something and it's in your mind and then all of a sudden it's like there. This is kind of a deep question, but I am very curious about the answer. So you've built a business around curating homes.

42:20And now you're in a world that is constantly deconstructing your life at every turn. How do you stay in control of your own story when reality TV is kind of designed to take it away from you? You don't. Short answer. You don't stay in control of your own story. You got to go with it. You just have to go with it. You have to be your authentic self. That's how you stay in control of your own story. First of all, you can't control it all. But if you are who you truly are on and off camera, you can stay in control because you're not changing anything about it. It's your story if it's really you. And I feel really strongly about that.

42:58I feel really strongly about being myself on camera because when I agreed to do the show, it was to do a reality show, not a scripted TV show. And I felt like I really wanted to be fully myself and show up in that way. And so I really try to do that. You know, it can be challenging with certain people that, you know, will try to manipulate stories or get mad at you or whatever. But I think for the most part, if you do that, people respond. As I'm hearing you say that, I'm like, OK, maybe that's why people go off the rails is they try to control it and they can't. Or they try to produce it to make it a story.

43:36And it shows. And not only people see through it. Like it's not. People see through it. It's not entertaining. It's not. But I also agree with Erin. The idea that you can control at a macro level, they can only make decisions about you based on what you see. So what you offer up and how you show up at every given turn is really all they have. So while you can't control it, you can just be yourself. And then if somebody wants to make a crack at who you are as a person and with what little they know of you from a TV show, then they can have their fun. Right. Totally. least have at it. Jenna, do you feel like you have any style advice that applies to both fashion and life?

44:14I'll give you an example. I asked Carla Welch this and she said, wear the dress, meaning like that fancy special dress you have that you're like waiting for a special occasion. I mean, I'm always so apprehensive to give advice because I think it's so often misinterpreted. And I feel like what works for me is not necessarily going to work for someone else. I think the only thing I would say is that you can always tell when someone gives a genuine and compliment. Like you can feel it when someone's like, you look great and pay attention to what you're wearing that day. Cause I think there's this feeling that people have to change and be different all the time.

44:47And I do think it's like things work for people and having an identity and having a perspective of like, this is who I am and how you show up. Actually, there's something really nice about that. And it doesn't mean you have to have a uniform, but like it kind of creates a narrative around you and lets you be yourself. And I think there's certain things that people look really great in. I mean, Kim Kardashian is a perfect example and you can like her, love her, that's on the point. But if you close your eyes, you can sort of picture something with her. The same thing when you think about Annie Hall, like you close your eyes and you can picture a sense of style.

45:14And I think it's nice when people develop their own thing. It doesn't matter what it is. Kim Kardashian, Annie Hall, Diane Keaton couldn't be more different, but they both have something that is specifically distinct. Yeah. And I think there's something really nice about that. And it doesn't need to change over time. Do you guys subscribe to the three word rule? There's this girl on Instagram. I forgot her name, but she says like you have to pick the three words for your style. And then that way, when you go into a store, you know, like, is it hot Italian, you know, like whatever it is, it tailored?

45:45And I feel like those kinds of things are gimmicks. I mean, I really do. There are probably three words to describe both of our styles. But the idea that I would go into a store thinking about it, I would never like it just would never occur to me. I also if there's a white shirt rack, I will find it. Do each other's. What are the three words okay i'll do yours because it's easy tailored tomboy and chic oh thank you that was a good one i would say aaron's is she's always got a sultry oh do i you do you're good at showing skin but not too much okay i appreciate you have something i like which is you can do glamour but you also do incredibly good like sort of an authentic casual which i think is really nice like there is like a real like i don't know what the word is and i should be better at this because this is my job but no casual is because she does both casual but you also love a good glam like you do do a good glam like there's a sultry you can do sultry glam and sultry casual which I think is also hard to do that's good I like that because I think even when you're casual and when you're glam there's still that kind of quiet sultry like you're never overtly sexy you're not wearing a push-up bra you don't have that kind of overly plumped vibe which I appreciate that no but I think there's a sultriness to that sort of quietness.

46:59But I will get my boobs fixed. Oh, you can absolutely get your boobs fixed. But I want a lift. I don't want an implant. Where are they going to take the junk from? You got nothing to dunk. You're going to have to eat a bunch of food. Yeah. Yeah, you could fatten yourself up. I might. That's actually not a bad idea. Maybe I'll just do that. So Jenna, I was reading that you were teased mercilessly. Yes. As a kid, which hurts my heart. Thank you. And then you went into fashion, which is interesting to me. I know you love clothes. But fashion is not known. to be the kindest industry. Like that's where like the cool kids go.

47:31You're a lot younger than I am. So you have to understand, I didn't know any of this when I was young. Like I just thought I was going to work in a design room somewhere and be of service to another brand. I didn't understand the industry. There was no access to the industry when I was a kid. All I knew was that I liked making clothes and I liked the transformative power of clothes. It was the only time that I had positive feedback was when I would make something. And so for me, it wasn't like I was scared of the industry. I didn't know what the industry was about. There was no Devil Wears Prada.

48:00There was no Insta. I had no idea. Do you think being an outsider makes people a tastemaker? No, I think being an outsider makes you more attuned and makes you a little bit more empathetic. I think it's the reason when I saw you sitting there by yourself, being left out is one of those things for me. It really does something to me like the last person to be picked at a dance, the person who never got picked to be on a team, Like the person who didn't get picked to be in the photograph, like I get all taken by those things. And so for me, I was just looking to do something that I loved that I could feel like I had a place in.

48:32But I didn't understand like that it was the cool kids area. I never expected to be in that room. And honestly, it was always an outsider, even when I was at J.Crew. Like I wasn't like one of the designers, like I wasn't the Proenza boys or, you know, I never felt completely on the inside. But I still love it. But again, I love the clothes. Like the industry is not what it's about for me. What do you think are the habits that make a great executive a great creative? I would say creative is being curious. If you are not curious about whatever is new and whatever is happening and whether it's art or fashion or architecture, being curious about the world of design in general, I think helps.

49:10And in terms of being an executive, I think it's like getting out of the way. I think the biggest mistakes I've made in being, you know, in sort of leadership was always trying to do too much and not like giving people space to do it themselves. I think it's a hard thing to learn that balance of encouraging people, giving them room, supporting them versus telling them what to do. And I think in my early years, particularly, I was a little too didactic and, you know, sort of micromanaging. And that does not work. It does not give people wings. It does not inspire them. And I really had to learn how to step back and like give people confidence, tell them that they're great and like say, let's keep going and see what they're capable of.

49:48And it was a hard lesson to learn. It seems hard in every way because you give too much leniency and things don't go the way you need them to. And then. Yeah, I mean, it's a learning curve for sure. I mean, I think it's also about team. And I think the most important lesson I remember was hire people who are smarter than you, hire people who fill a void that you don't have. You know, I remember really distinctly someone saying, oh, I don't want to hire this girl because she could have my job. I'm like, no, that's exactly the person you should hire. Because what that means is that she's so good that then you can take on new things.

50:16But if you don't ever have a really capable team underneath you, how are you going to do anything new? And so I think that fear sometimes when people like don't want to be overshadowed, it's like let someone overshadow you. You're going to actually have room to do other things. It's OK. But I think people get scared. I saw men were much better at it than women. And I hate to gender, but it was something I saw as well. Like women aren't taught the same way to kind of band together in business. I think it's changed. But when I was coming up, it was definitely more like the guys were all together and the girls were all trying to beat each other.

50:47It was so strange. Again, it's changed somewhat, but I remember so distinctly from when I was young. Yeah. You were working in fashion at a very particular time. It was the 90s. I mean, I'm in a different place in my business. And I think what I've learned works really well is having systems in place and having organization in that way. And I think, you know, like watching over my staff at Miss Gloom and also the girls that just work for me personally, if they all know what the systems are, they can do great on their own. So I like to put systems in place and I have like a lot of processes and ways that we do things and then they kind of just shine.

51:25Yeah. And I think it is good to get out of their way. I mean, I think. But having clear roles and responsibilities helps you get out of their way. I think in absence of that, it can be really hard. Yeah, I think having clarity. And I like to also have a lot of communication, like weekly meetings. I'm talking more of like the micro level, but I like to have weekly meetings. I like to do like progress reviews, things like that, because it helps people feel responsible, I think, for what they're doing and valued, too, because then they get to have conversations with me. And I'm like, you did such a great job at that marketing campaign.

51:58Like, that was amazing. Let's, you know, work on this and that. I think people just feel good being seen and talk to.

52:25But Boost Mobile, their$25 a month unlimited wireless plan is the most consistent player on the floor. No contracts, no price hikes. Unlock the savings today at BoostMobile.com slash unlock. Based on average annual single line payment of AT &T, Verizon, and T-Mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit BoostMobile.com. When it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University, we find ways to remove barriers, not build them. Like a new laptop if you're eligible and enroll in select online or on-campus programs.

52:56That means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. Online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Jewel Osco. For you, save days are here now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times a point. Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from Triscuit, Quaker, Reese's, and Dots pretzels. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event-long savings.

53:31Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in-store or online for easy pickup or delivery. Restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions. Hello, hello. This is Malcolm Glebel from Smart Talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari HP. Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari. I'm still working on rolling my R's. But what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans in the digital age.

54:12Ferrari fans and superfans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community, and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team. You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history. And now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions. When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology and digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans. To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit ibm.com slash Ferrari.

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55:31You're such a warm familial person. Do you feel like it's hard to toe the line with employees or do they become part of your family? How does that work? I think it's a little bit of both. I think that I've learned a lot over the years. I think it used to be harder for me. And now, like, I've just grown up so much in business that I feel like it's a clear line, but it still is family. You know, like, I even have this new assistant that I'm working with. And she was like, out with my brother last night. And I was like, stay, you can come a little bit late. It's fine. Hang out with Donnie. But she knows that she's texting me in the morning and saying, like, here's your schedule.

56:07So like, I think that it's hard, but I think you can be both. You can still have dinner with them and treat them like family, but also have them realize that there's still a role here and there's a job to be done. We're working a lot. It's really funny because this girl who just started working for me was like, I would never have thought that you worked as much as you do. She was like shocked. She was like watching you and like seeing you on the show and like seeing you on Instagram. Like, I just thought you had so many people doing things for you. And I didn't know that you work all day long, like nonstop.

56:37I'm like, well, welcome to the club. Oh, working, you know, like people don't realize it's so funny. I think Instagram has been confusing because, you know, you post like the finished product and not the journey oftentimes. Yeah. Okay. I want to do some rapid fire questions with you guys.

56:56Your favorite New York tourist trap. I like the tree lighting at Rockefeller Center. Oh, Oh, yeah, you would. It's really magical. I would, but I'd really love it. It is a magical moment. That's a great one. Central Park. Great one, too. Okay, what's one thing that success in money can't buy? Family. Love. Yeah, I would say the same. Cuddles. Cuddles. Babies. What's something you used to see as a weakness that turned out to be a strength? I would certainly say not feeling pretty, I think, in the end was the thing that turned out to be a strength. I don't know. I have to think about that. I'll come back to it.

57:30Okay. A piece of financial advice you wish you knew 20 years ago. Don't rent. Buy. Really? I bought as soon as I possibly could and so many people don't. Don't blow all your money from your wedding. Try to invest it somewhere else and not into your own business like an idiot and then lose it all. What's a book that changed your life, something you think everybody should read? The Law of Attraction. Read it like six times. Mine's Happiness. What is it? Happiness. I haven't heard of that. Me neither. I'll send it to you. Wow. I've never heard of it. Okay, beautiful. The smartest decision you've ever made?

58:04Marrying Abe. That's a sweet one. I'd say moving to New York. I think moving is a bet on yourself. Totally. I just couldn't leave, though, because I'm just in the best city in the world. Yeah, you were already here. You hadn't grew up here. It was just lucky. One thing that every woman should try once. These are harder. These are not quick-fire questions. I know. They're like thoughtful questions. That's what she's all about. You know, I was laughing when you said that because I was like, no, they're rapid-fire. I was like oh this is rapid fire for me what was the question something that every woman should try for themselves what would you say I would say date or have a moment in time with a guy or a girl that you feel like you shouldn't be with but you're pulled to like go have the torrid affair totally I was gonna say have sex with a woman I knew you were gonna say something sexual Ashlyn Harris said that when she was on the pod who did?

58:55Ashlyn Harris Oh, that's funny. Oh, man, I never had sex with a woman. Well, you got, but you still have time. I still have time. I mean, he'd love to. He'd love for me to invite a woman in. Question everything card game question. We just pick? Oh, okay. It's like tarot. This is exciting. Are they shuffled? No. Oh. Okay. Is it a good one? I mean, I have a good answer. It's a good question. Okay, you go first. Okay. My question is the single best party you've ever been to set the scene. I have the insane honor of being able to go to Michelle Obama's 50th birthday party at the White House. And Prince played Stevie Wonder.

59:33I know it was insane. Stevie Wonder, Beyonce. It was crazy in a small room. It was not a huge place. So it was actually in the ballroom at the White House, which was very private. No phones, which is like the death of me because I don't have any visual proof. And I've never seen any pictures around it, but it was the most intimate. they danced until 3 30 in the morning it was by far one of the best experiences of my entire life have you written down all these like epic things i need a book of stories from you i should okay mine is what's something that felt super brave in the moment i'd say picking up and moving to peru after college you moved to peru yeah i didn't know what made you do that i don't know that's my point we graduated and we were talking about graduation gifts and me and my girlfriend were like we want to go volunteer in Peru and we just did I love that and we traveled there for like almost three months so cool yeah and living in Barcelona too travel was brave and awesome and I would not trade it for the world it changed me I also think you can't understand someone who's young now when we were traveling back then there was no GPS awesome no cell phones you had to use a map you had to like decide where you're going and you had to use a book like it just is so different today I think being brave back then was very different you know traveling you were meeting people you had no access to anything about their lives and you weren't taking pictures with them or selfies or like figuring out we were doing that you had phones okay so I'm older than you I didn't Aaron's like this is not a wee thing Jenna I mean I had a phone but was there GPS yeah I mean not like there is now not like there is now but it was 2010 or 11.

1:01:22Yeah. It was a phone. I had an iPhone, I think. Thank you both so much for your time. And Erin, congrats. Thank you so much. You have to try the schnitzel.

1:01:36Okay. You know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

1:02:06We'll be right back.

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