The 3 Ingredients of a Meaningful Life + Why Most People Miss Two: with NYU Professor Suzy Welch

23:50We never arrived. That's why the book is called Becoming You, not become you, okay? Because you are always becoming you. And sometimes we have to travel through some stuff to get to that. I mean, look at what I traveled through across my life to get to where I now am living my purpose. I don't adhere to the strategy where you can be everything. I mean, I have a name for it in my class. I call it the cowbell syndrome. And I named it for the student who came up to me and said to me after class one day, look, I grew up on a farm. I really love farmed animals. Sometimes I just wonder why I'm not a vet.

24:20I love them. I want to be with them. I love taking care of them. But then when I go to bed at night, I dream about ringing the bell on NASDAQ when my tech company goes public. And I said, well, these are two things you can't be at the same time. Which is it going to be? Are you going to be taking care of the cows or are you going to be ringing the bell? And he said, well, both. And I said, no, not that. So I named the cowbell syndrome form because you have to wake up as one thing every day. You know, you cannot wake up as sort of a Broadway performer and a tech entrepreneur on the same day. It's too exhausting.

24:50You can be more than one thing in your life. And in fact, you kind of have to be because the world does not stand still.

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28:15I remember, what year was it? 2012? It was a while ago. Anne-Marie Slaughter wrote a piece in The Atlantic about women having it all. And she had just quit a very high-profile job. And she basically resigned to the idea that she wasn't going to have it all the way she thought she was when she was growing up. And you have this quote in your book that not only did it give me chills, but every producer that worked on this episode was like, this is the quote. Do you have the book by you by any chance? I do. Okay. It's on page 43. Okay. I would love, love, love for you to read it instead of me. Oh, dear God, I tried.

28:56I could not have it all, all at the same time, because no one can. Not Oprah, not Candace Bushnell, not Jeff Bezos, not Bill Gates, not even Taylor Swift, whose album The Tortured Poets Department should have been titled The Tortured Superstars Department to reflect all the stuff she hates about being spectacularly famous and rich. Yes, even Taylor makes trade-offs. So ta-da, Becoming You is designed to help you do the same, because I believe it wouldn't be worth a red cent in any real world any other way. How do you think people feel when they read, you cannot have it all? Relieved because they've been trying.

29:33They've been trying and they want permission to understand you can't. I think it's such an exhale, especially for women to say, it's okay. I don't have to live that picture. I can only do what I can. And I think it actually opens the door for you to have more because you just stop dancing as fast as you can. You know, you say, okay, I made some trade-offs and I'm going to live with the trade-offs I made. This is the best possible life for me. I am as close to the person I'm meant to be. Now, there are periods in your life where trying to have it all is agonizing and it really hits you when you've got young children and you're trying to build your career.

30:14There's this crazy accident of biology, which is that there's sort of 15 to 20 years where your children need you heart, mind, and soul, and your company needs you heart, mind, and soul, and that's sort of 25 to 45. Just when your kids are like, I need everything about you, every single minute to be fixated on every need that I have, and you want that because you love them. At that exact time, if you have decided to stay in the workplace, your company is watching to see if you're going to go to the next level, and your company wants every drop of your energy, blood, sweat, and tears. And that absolutely, for many women, completely overlaps at the same time.

30:51And for 20 years, for those of us who decide to stay in it, we suit up every day like Daenerys going into Westeros for battle for the Game of Thrones fanatics like myself. And we suit up every day and fight that battle. And then your kids grow up and they're like, oh, what are you doing here? And they go away and you suddenly can breathe again a little bit, but then they come back after college because you have good rent. They're older and wiser by that time, but that's our life. And it's in that period where one day it's such a mess and such a, you know, what show that when you finally give yourself permission to say, it's not all going to work out for me.

31:29I'm not going to actually be super mom and super employee all exactly on the same day that you can finally start to breathe again. And you give yourself some grace. You write that success really comes down to three things. I think everybody is going to be curious about what those are. It's professional success. Okay. I mean, I think outside of that, there's other things. So for professional success, it really boils down to three things. The first is the quality of your relationships with people. And that's what most people kind of get. They get, you've got to be trustworthy. You've got to be likable.

31:56You've got to be good company. You've got to be a good collaborator. So it's the quality, not the quantity, but the quality of your relationships with people, although quantity kind of matters too. The second is the quality of your ideas. You can't sleep on that. You got to have good ideas. And that's why you got to stay current and read and learn about things and know people. And you got to have some good ideas at work. Or you have to be a very good shepherd of other people's ideas. So you may not be a gigantically original or creative person yourself. But if you're a midwife to other people's ideas, you can make up for that.

32:30And then the final unsung one is execution, which is if you get stuff done. If you do what you say you're going to do, if you do it early, if you do it better than you say, like if you are reliable in getting stuff done, and women are just generally better at this than men, no shade on men. But I mean, I think this is where women really excel. I use the initials PIE, people, ideas, and execution. And if you can hit it on those three things, it's pretty hard to hold you back. Have you ever seen a person who has those three things not accomplish their goals? Yes, for a couple of reasons. And sometimes it's because they're inconsistent.

33:05So they hit on all those cylinders one day and then don't the next day. One of the untold sort of truths about business is part of success is just showing up as the same person every day. And what really hurts you is if you're sort of one person one day and another person the next day, you know, if people can count on you as the same person every day, you're better off. I see a lot of people in creative fields fight with an idea that you talk about in the book, which is a successful life and a meaningful life. What is the difference between those two things? I don't know if there is one. I mean, for me, that's what success is, a meaningful, productive life.

33:38And I put productive in there because that matters to me because I think helping other people is a productive thing. A life where you feel like you're authentic and you're also connected to something larger than yourself, that's about as good as it gets. And again, I'm not in the happiness business. I'm not in the happiness industrial complex, as I lovingly call it, because I myself am a person who had everything to be happy and then my husband got sick and I understood that a lot of times happiness is not in our own control. So I like people to go for a meaningful and productive life. I think happiness is usually the byproduct, but not always.

34:09Your husband is the late Jack Welch, who was the CEO of General Electric. He was known to be one of the most influential CEOs in the world. I'm curious when you met him, if you knew that he was going to become this very influential, powerful man, Did you feel it in him? Well, we fell in love at first sight. I mean, it was a total first sight thing, which I simply did not believe. And I absolutely was a person who's very realistic and did not believe it. So I knew he was going to be influential in my life. You know, he was the CEO and I met him. So he's already famous. So when I met him, I feared him because his reputation was so fearsome.

34:48And then I walked into the room and our eyes met and I literally staggered backwards. And I like was, what? but, and the funny thing is I was there to interview him for the Harvard Business Review, where I was the editor. I went to interview him. So we actually had a tape recording of our first meeting, which we dutifully played for each other on every anniversary because it was hysterical, that first conversation between us, because we both felt the exact same thing. And like 10 minutes into the interview, he told me to turn off the tape recorder so he could ask me on a date. I think that people who met Jack when he was 10 years old knew he was destined to be the person he was.

35:23He was a pretty strong personality. Would it being married to somebody who held so much power personally and professionally teach you about your own power? I think Jack never thought about power. I generally don't like the word power. And I don't think he did either. And he also hated the word legacy. He was actually just a very regular down to earth guy. Like right now, I perceive that I don't have any power, although I'm told I do. I don't desire power. And he did not desire power. He desired to build a business and create jobs. And so it's an interesting word, power. I think people think they want it, but there's nothing really good about having it.

35:58You know, it's like, what's so good about it? It doesn't make you a better person. I don't want to be disingenuous here. There's something really awesome about getting every restaurant reservation that you want. You know, that's kind of a cool thing, but maybe that's sort of like where it ends, right? It's like, oh, let's go to such and such restaurant in two hours. And yeah, you know, there was a period in my life where that could happen. So. It's funny because most famous people I interview cite that same example and they're like, the rest is kind of whatever. It's a really cool thing. And it doesn't extend anymore to me really.

36:25So I would say I miss it, but it doesn't make any difference really. I asked that question because I actually feel that the men that I have dated have taught me so much business-wise and just like being a personal mirror to me. I guess that's where my question was coming from. But you write that Jack and I had a life together that was so complicated and chaotic. There were times it was too much for even me. What did you mean by that? There are two values. I mean, we shared all of our values, but one of his top values was scope, which is the desire for an exciting life. And the other value we shared was radius, which is a desire to change the world.

37:01And I have those extremely high, as did he. I think, you know, like three and four for me, we both had achievement is a very high value. Our values were very similar. And I think that most people who know me would agree that I have more stamina than any other person they know. I sleep four hours a night. I've always been that way. But he outdid me on it. One time, it was a really long day. I had woken up at four to be on the Today Show. I was exhausted, done homework with the kids, blah, blah, blah, four kids. And it was 11 o 'clock and we were watching the news. I remember feeling like, oh God, it's already 11 o 'clock.

37:30And I was climbing into bed and about to pull the covers up to my chin. And he looked over at me with like a little mischievous look in his eyes. And he said, want to do a pub crawl? And I thought, oh my God, That's what I mean. Okay. That's what I mean. And I said, look, here's the thing is I adored him and my marriage was my top priority. And I had one unsuccessful marriage and this one was not going to be unsuccessful. And I said, you really want to do that? And he said, yeah, let's get a car. And, you know, meaning we were not going to drive. And he said, let's get a car and do it. I got dressed up.

37:58I remember like thinking, all right, I'm just wearing a black pair of pants and a black turtleneck. I am not even going to think about this. And we had a blast, but I would say he did most of the talking on the pub crawl. We went to like five different pubs and he made best friends at every last one of them. And we like crawled into bed at like four in the morning. That's what I mean. He had even outdid me. When you look back on stuff like that, are you happy you went to the pub crawl? Yeah. You are. Because to me, I would feel like not seen. Like I would be like, you had no idea what my day was.

38:27I never had any doubt that he saw me. I was the center of his universe and he did everything to make me happy. I mean, And I was his number one. I mean, if I had actually said to him, I don't want to do this, he would have powdered a little bit and gone to bed. But it didn't even dawn on me to say, I don't want to do this. He saw me. You're right. If there had been a larger pattern of not being seen, that would have stopped. But that was not at all. You know, Jack was a person when I met him who didn't like dogs. He'd been bitten as a kid. And he said to me, like, do I have to buy into this dog thing?

38:57And I said, yeah, you do. And I mean, nobody became a bigger dog fanatic than Jack Welch. I mean, he like ended up like finding out about dog rescue and becoming deeply involved in it. And one time I was running a fundraiser for dog rescue and he saw me so much like trying to raise money that he got up on stage with the microphone. And to a huge crowd of people said into the microphone, take out your wallets and give money to my wife's effing charity. OK, he actually used the full word. He was like, you're not doing this hard enough, Susie. So I saw I was seen. Thank you for that memory. I loved him doing that.

39:28I just stood there with my mouth hanging open. People literally took out their wallets and gave money to my effing charity.

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42:52You used your becoming you method on your own life after Jack passed away. That obviously changed everything. Can you talk about how your life and your reality transformed after that? Well, he died at the beginning of the pandemic. He had been sick a long time, and then he died on March 1st, and then the pandemic struck like two weeks later. And I went up to the woods with my kids and their spouses and all of our dogs. We all thought, okay, who knows what's going to happen to the world? But then the pandemic ended and the kids went back to their lives. And I was up there in the woods walking the dogs.

43:25And luckily, the Today Show called and asked me to come back on. And when I got onto the set of the Today Show, again, it was still Hoda and Jenna then. And I said, oh, my God, I actually need to come back to work. I need to work again. But I didn't want to go back to TV. I needed something full time and more me. And I felt like there's something missing there. So I had been working on the Becoming You methodology at that point for around 15 years. And one night my kids were visiting for dinner. And I said, I have this idea to teach this methodology. And they knew what it was because I've been talking about it for so long.

43:58And I said, I just don't know what to call it. And my son, who was, I think, about 30 or 32 at the time, said, I think you should call it Becoming You, Mom. And I was like, that is exactly what I should call it. And so I took the methodology to NYU and said, would you be interested in possibly having a class on this. To my great gratitude, they said, we'll give it a try as an experiment. And none of us could have predicted what would happen when the class got offered and then went from there. But I was the first beta tester of the methodology because I was trying to figure out my values, my aptitudes, and my economically viable interests.

44:32I mean, I did every exercise with the students that first semester, and I went through the entire process with them. And as they were having their Eurekas, so was I. And luckily, my Eureka led me to exactly what I'm doing, which is being a purpose doula and helping people find their own purpose. That is what I was meant to be doing. You write in the book that it can be fearsome, humbling, and occasionally embarrassing to admit who we are, but we truly do need to know so that we can set out on the journey towards who it is we must become. Confronting yourself, people avoid it their entire lives.

45:03Why do you feel like they're willing to do it with becoming you? They don't want to. We force them. This is why the nickname of the class is the class where everyone cries. Look, it's the most popular class, so I must be doing something right. But people cry a lot in becoming you. And I mean, I almost like know when it's coming. It's sort of like 20 minutes into the first class. I'm sorry, you're not going to do it without help. So we force people to do it. And that's what all the tests are about. That's what all the exercises are about. And I don't believe in self-reporting. Nobody can self-report on their values or their aptitudes or their personality.

45:38I mean, one of the hardest parts of the class is when we have to take a good, hard look at our personality. That's one of our aptitudes is our personality. You can be great at a job because of your personality. You can be terrible at your job because of your personality. So we got to find out what your personality is. Oh, people want to tell me what their personality is. I'm sorry. That's not the way it works. Your personality is not the list of words used to describe yourself. Your personality is how the world experiences you. You can say, I'm good. I'm kind. I'm loyal. I'm a great listener. and the world can be experiencing you as hostile and disingenuous.

46:09And so we do 360 feedback for everybody and you got to do it. And then we give you a self-awareness score because you take the exact same questions that your raters are taking and then we compare them. And everybody goes in thinking they're going to get a hundred percent on self-awareness. That does not happen. There's no way. I mean, it struck me when you talk about integrity that you think that oftentimes people think they have more integrity than they actually do. They always do. They always think they have more integrity and they always think they've got more self-awareness. Like that typical person says, I have 98 to 100 % self-awareness and the typical self-awareness hovers around 56%.

46:43Okay. But there are people who get 20 % self-awareness on the test. You ask such a great question. And the answer is to be brutally honest, almost no one does it. And so we have to kick their hands lovingly with testing. Otherwise you're just going to get gobbledygook. You know what you get when you don't do what we do, which again, this is not an easy process, is you get magical thinking. You ask people, what's your purpose? they say stuff that's just simply not possible. I want to be Celine Dion, but they can't sing. I want to be a famous influencer. Well, you don't have an idea. And the thing about influencers is they're filled with ideas.

47:16They've got something that people want to hear them talk about. And it's like, we've got to be real. Your dreams matter, but your dreams have got to be achievable or otherwise they're not a purpose. That I think speaks to the third portion of your book, which is economic viability. And I hear you and Scott Galloway wave this flag more than anybody else on the internet, which is do not follow your passion. Unless you're good at it, unless you're great at it. I mean, my head explodes. If you want to trigger me at a dinner party, say, I just told my son to follow his passion and the host has to leave me outside so that I can recapture my breathing.

47:49I mean, fine, if you're great at it, okay? But if you're not, it's a hobby, okay? Have it as a hobby. And my daughter is a ceramicist. She's a potter. She makes the most gorgeous pottery. My mom was a potter and we are constantly in the family pottery studio. This is our family activity. Some families play Frisbee, but no, we go into the pottery studio. And so I'm terrible. I'm absolutely terrible. But I still make pottery and that's why it's a hobby. And everybody at Christmas gets the results of my hobby and they're very sweet about it, but I'm not trying to make a living doing it. And that's why you've got to understand what jobs you can do that can pay you what you want to be paid.

48:24I feel like I need four different interviews with you because I have all these questions for you about interviewing and getting hired. But I think overarchingly, without getting into the weeds, the big question that so many people have is that our world is changing so rapidly right now that a lot of people can't even predict what's going to be happening. And technologically, politically, I think pivoting is probably more important than ever. What advice from your book do you think will stand the test of time as the world is rapidly changing? Oh, I hope it all stands the test of time it's meant to, but I would say that the world is the world of pivots.

49:01Somebody took the Becoming You Immersive and he said, I'm just looking for a job with security. And I said, you're not going to find it, but let's just go from there. I mean, nobody knows. I don't know. But here's the thing. You can know something and that is you can know yourself. I mean, that's what Becoming You gives you. It gives you a user's manual. It tells you what your values are. It tells you what your aptitudes are. And it tells you what kind of work you're drawn to emotionally and intellectually that matches your affluence value. And so if you know yourself, you can plug yourself into any world, right?

49:29If you know who you are. And so you can't know the world, but you can know you. So no matter what happens in the world, you can place yourself in it with more ease. Maybe it won't be easy, but you say, okay, the world went that way. My values are X. Okay. My aptitudes are Y. Okay. I see the place for me. But if you go into the crazy changing world, and you're guessing you are so far behind. You've got to go in armed with such self-knowledge. I mean, now in Becoming You, I just started it this semester, students are coming out with literally a thing called their user's manual, which is like a book about them that lists their values and their aptitudes and actually gives them the best answers for typical interview questions based on their values and their aptitudes, because you need a user's manual now because the world's wackadoodle.

50:13That is really good advice. I have some rapid fire questions for you. Ooh, okay, cut.

50:21The best investment you've made in yourself? Dogs. A detour that was important in your life? Every failure. Do you believe in failure or you think they're all pivots? No, they're not all pivots. Failure is failure. Sometimes you just really blow it, but you learn a lot. What's something that you wish more people asked you about? My faith. I wish I would have asked you more about that. That's for part two. A piece of financial advice that you wish you knew at 20 years old. I think I knew it when I was 22 and it was great advice. I heard it when I was 22 or 23. And it's this, there's no last best deal.

50:52Okay. People who are trying to get you to buy something or do something are always trying to convince you that this is the last best deal. There is no last best deal. That's the best financial advice. And it's saved me a thousand times. What's one thing that you learned from your students at NYU? They teach me every single day gentleness, how scary it is, how important it is for people like me to say everything is going to be okay. Even if you think it's not going to be okay, even if it isn't okay for a little while, things are going to be okay. One thing that every woman should try once. You know, I am of the belief that you should just continually do things that are really hard.

51:28So I would say hard stuff, just keep doing it. A question that you like to ask yourself. Does this match my values? I think that we all know something that other people don't. So if you could teach me one random thing today, something that you think I need to hear, what would it be? In general, it's always better to be the author of your life than the editor. And we so easily fall into being the editor and we let other people write our stories for us. And so I'd say, know yourself well enough that you can keep the pen of your life in your own hand and write that story for yourself. What's a book that changed your life, something you think everybody should read?

52:06There's two novels I really love. One is The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen, because it's just about how families behave. And it actually is a book that asks the question, can you rewrite your narrative that your family has written for you? Because our families write stories for us. And can you rewrite the story? And it really asks that. It doesn't have a very positive answer, but I beg to differ. But I think it's an important one. And then I love the book Peace Like a River. It's a beautiful novel. it asks the question if miracles really can happen. And I think it's worth pondering. And it asks it in a very intelligent, thoughtful, provocative way.

52:40And I think we should always be open to wonder. And so both those books I adore. Thank you for those. I haven't read either of them. Okay. My last question to you is the Quest at Everything card game. Feel free to tell me when to stop. Stop. Okay. What do you want to be known for? I mean, honestly, it's so hackneyed to say this, but that I help people. I mean, that I helped people wage peace. I think the peace of the world starts in us. And if we are at peace with ourselves, then we turn and we just help the person next to us. It can be a very disconnected, discordant, acrimonious world right now.

53:14And so if I just started one chain of somebody finding peace so that they could share peace, that would be good enough. You are one of the most special people I've ever had the privilege of speaking to. I'm so grateful for your time. I'm honored.

53:31Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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