The Cost of Pretending You're Okay: with Jamie-Lynn Sigler

27:25I feel safe to make mistakes, to say, I don't know, to not be perfect. And I think with all of that, it just makes me feel like I walk with more faith now and trust. It doesn't mean that difficult things might not be around the corner. I was in the middle of writing this book when Bo got sick, when my son was sick, which allowed the book to sort of even take a whole different shape because it begins and ends with him. So, I mean, I thought I was like in my like closing the loop, like ready to like share. And then the biggest, most traumatic thing in my life landed in my lap. So I don't know what's around the corner, but I move forward with faith, knowing that I know who I am.

28:14I know my tribe. I know I have people to call upon and I'm not afraid to do so. And then I just don't have to go through this life alone. We're not meant to do that. We can feel so isolated in our pain and so afraid to share because we feel like it will disconnect us from everyone. But what I've learned is sharing my pain has connected me to everyone. It's the opposite. If I met Jamie at 22 at a party, would you have been a character or would you have been a version of yourself? I would have thought I was me, but looking back, I think I was always playing a character. I was always trying to find myself.

28:57I mean, I always, I was always kind. That was always the most important thing. Like I love people. I love connecting with people. I would have looked you deep in your eyes and given you a genuine smile and loved you from the start and been your friend no matter what. But I would not have shared with you any of my pain. I would not have shared with you, I don't feel good in this outfit even, or I don't feel like I look good, or does he like me? Like, I just never, I never shared what was going on in my head because I just assumed it was, it was, would be a turnoff to people. So in some ways a character, but in many ways I thought authentic because I wasn't even sort of admitting what I was going through to myself.

29:42Yeah. That makes sense. I remember in 2016 when your announcement or the headline came out that you told the world that you had MS. I was working at Entertainment Tonight Online, so I remember the newsroom that day. Wow. And I remember thinking the only other person I had remembered talking about it was Montel Williams. And I think it was like 1999 and I had heard reverberations of it. I wasn't really old enough to understand. And then Terry Garr shared hers in the early 2000s. But you were the first young, famous working actor that I had seen talk about an MS diagnosis simultaneous to navigating your own career and dreams and life and love and eventually motherhood.

30:29I think you represented a whole new generation of actors that were managing chronic illness while navigating careers. What led up to you sharing publicly in 2016? That makes me emotional. Why? I don't think I saw it that way at that time. No, it was just what led me to it was I just, I couldn't bear holding the secret anymore. Everyone around me, my close circle for a number of years prior were really, you know, they didn't push me, but every once in a while they'd be like, Jamie, why don't you, even if it was at work, they're like, why don't you just tell people at work? You're making it so much harder for yourself.

31:14No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. You don't understand. I would always just feel like people didn't get it. I knew that it would be the end of my life. I knew it would be the end of my career and they just didn't get it. And I had a two-year-old son at the time. And, you know, at that point, I was having to sort of, you know, explain to him not why mommy couldn't run or mommy needed to sit sometimes, but just just basically saying matter of factly, mommy can't run. So mommy, mommy needs to just be the pitcher when we play baseball or the goalie when we play hockey or mommy needs to sit down sometimes like he didn't need the explanation at that time.

31:49But I thought about, okay, as he gets older and he's going to start asking why, am I going to tell him why but that he can't tell anyone that he has to hold this secret for me? Like, what is that teaching my son? What is that teaching him about the world? Also, the MS at that point had, you know, progressed enough to a point where I couldn't hide it. It was very clear that something was going on with my body. I was dealing with some type of physical disability, even though I wasn't ready to say that I was disabled at the time because for some reason that label felt negative to me. I've been able, thankfully, to, you know, rearrange my thoughts and feelings around that.

32:26So all of those things were kind of coming to a head. And then one of my best friends, Lindsay, was seeing this hypnotist at the time for her own reasons. And much like many of my other friends who have just thought about me, you know, she brought me up to him one day and said, you know, one of my best friends lives with MS. She lives with daily pain. Like, do you think you could help her with that? And he said, absolutely. I'd love to talk to her. So I would go see anyone, anyone that could possibly help me, I would go see. So I remember I drove up to his house in Santa Monica, parked my car, and he was waiting for me at the top of his driveway.

33:02And I looked down at the ground and I walked up to him and immediately before even saying like, hi, how are you? Anything? He was like, why are you looking at the ground? Why won't you look at me when you walk? And it was so confronting, but I don't know if it was just his presence, his energy. I wasn't angry at it. I didn't feel anything negative around it. I felt then immediately like I had to answer honestly. And I said, I don't like to watch people watch me walk. and he said okay after you and I remember walking in front of him and I started instinctively doing that thing where I would hold my breath and try to walk as normal and straight as I could because that's what I would do I wanted to always present as better than I ever was you know never show people exactly how I was feeling or how disabled I was I'm going to try to look better for everyone I walked into his office and he pointed to this like giant old leather lazy boy chair and I sat in and across from him and he said you feel so much shame about the fact that you have MS and I was just speechless I never even considered the fact that I was embarrassed that I had this that I thought that my having MS and people knowing that I had it meant that I was inherently bad or I did something wrong to deserve it.

34:25Not realizing that that actually was my way of thinking. I subconsciously felt all of those things. So it was almost like he opened the door of the way that I needed to really address this. What I really needed to see was like, forget the MS, like your feelings around it need to be healed. All of my focus prior to that was like, how do I fix the body? How do I fix the walking? How do I fix my leg? How do I make sure that I don't pee my pants? I never thought about addressing me and my heart and my emotions around living with a chronic illness. I don't know if I thought I deserved it. I don't know if I thought it was possible.

35:07It was just never a part of any type of healing that I considered. So we talked for like 10, 15 minutes. He put me under hypnosis. I don't know what happened. And then when I came out, he said, okay, I'd love to see you again in like a week or two. We'll make a plan. I remember I got in my car and it was like, you ever have moments in your life where you're like so incredibly present? Like sometimes a trauma will do that to you. You know what I mean? Where you're like, like you can't go into the future. You can't go in the past. You're just kind of floating. Remember I got in my car. I didn't even look at my phone.

35:41I didn't turn on the music and I started driving home. And all of a sudden I remember the first thing I passed was the Sony lot where I've gone on auditions many times. And I started getting these memories of when I would go on these auditions. Let's say my audition was at 2 p.m. I would get there at one o 'clock. I didn't have a handicap placard then because nobody knew. So I was like, you know, try to circle and circle and find the closest spot I could. And then I would, you know, pretend I was on my phone walking through the lot and like walk a couple of steps and then rest and then walk a little bit more and rest because nobody knew I didn't ever think to ask for help of a closer parking spot or a golf cart ride.

36:21So I'm walking all across the slot to the audition to manage my body so that when I get there, I'm not limping. So I'm not giving away. And just to think about all of the extra layer of suffering that I placed upon myself because I didn't want anybody to know I had this, like all of the help that I never opened myself up to because of the shame I felt around having MS. Like that was just one example. And then all of a sudden, just like all of these memories came flooding back. And I was just like, I can't do this anymore. I can't live like this anymore. I don't deserve to. I need to see how life can be a different way.

37:01And if that means that I don't act anymore, then I don't act anymore. Like I can't feel shameful on top of already what I'm feeling from MS. I just want to add one thing because if people read your book, they'll hear how much you love acting. Yeah. So to say to yourself, I can't live like this anymore. It's okay if I don't act, I think is actually like a weightier moment than people may understand because you talk about so often being on stage and like it's the only time that you weren't in pain that you felt most like yourself it was clear to me that from a young age you had a calling thanks for saying that yeah yeah I didn't even think about that how much in the book I do reference that oh you know what so felt that so deeply throughout the whole thing oh

38:07Shortly after I enrolled at Rasmussen, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was like a bomb had just been dropped in my life. I reached out to Rasmussen. They immediately were like, Rosa, take what time you need. You can come back when you're ready. We are cancer-free today, and I'm just so grateful for Rasmussen, for all of their support throughout my journey, and for my own village. Rasmussen University. Find your seat and start now at rasmussen.edu.

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40:44I was asked to sing in this benefit the other night. My friend Craig Thomas, who's one of the creators of How I Met Your Mother, His son was born with a heart defect that caused many developmental issues with his son. And there's a doctor who has really been instrumental in their son's healing and journey. And the benefit concert was to raise money for his research. Every year they do it and they invite guest stars that were on How I Met Your Mother. And I was once on it. So they were asked me this year. Anyway, I say this all to say that I got on stage the Saturday night and I sang three songs.

41:19And I, my body showed up for me. I stood the whole time with ease. I was vibrating. I was happy. I was doing something that like, I love that I don't do anymore because of the grief I have around not being able to perform the way I once did, whatever, all those different reasons. And my kids came and they've never seen me like that. They've never seen me perform. and when I got off the stage my eight-year-old who's not not like Bo my older one like Bo's very emotional and very expressive like Jack my little one is just kind of very like you know he hugs from the side he's just more reserved kind of like my husband and he was like mom I have never seen you happy before like I think he was trying like he had never seen me like that before he goes I was shaking watching you.

42:11And it just, it makes me feel alive when I perform. And I think it's taken me a lot of time to accept and understand that I can still be a performer along with this. But you broke the seal. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you have to, you know, and I think that that's what other people. I hope so. I hope so. I think that's also what I thought about a lot in the book is just I hope that I hope that any other young person in any field understands that we all have to make pivots in life, you know, sometimes. And a diagnosis doesn't mean that your dreams are over, just means you have to find a different way.

42:59And it's been a slow journey of when I finally did come out about it. I still was operating like I used to where, okay, now people know, but I'm not a problem. Don't worry. I can do it. We can work around this. I could do a couple of steps where I look able-bodied. And I don't blame anyone. Everyone was very supportive of what I felt comfortable doing. I still wanted to seem like an able-bodied person. I didn't want people to know I had MS. I'm playing a character. They don't have MS. We can't show this. And it's been over the last decade of me being public with it, me finally getting to a place just this year where now every job I go into, every audition, every meeting, I'm like, I have MS.

43:48I walk with a limp. I'm physically disabled. If you're okay with that, great. But I cannot perform a body and give you the best performance that I can give. So as long as you're okay with me walking the way I walk and moving the way I move, great. I know it's not going to work for everyone. And I have to accept that. But it's where you're at. But it's where I'm at because I can't do it the way I had been doing it for so long, where basically I was so concerned with getting through the physical part of the day and not getting the freedom and the enjoyment of acting. anymore. And so again, while that limits me, it's the only way that I can do it.

44:29And to me, how I can really represent others like me, you know, you can people been receptive. Yes. Yes. I just did a couple of episodes on one of my favorite shows. It's called tires on Netflix with Shane Gillis. And I told the director, John McKeever, like before we started, I was like, listen, I have, he's like, I know what's cool. We don't have to talk about it. You're you. and I did it. I did the role and we never talked about it. And it was so beautiful and amazing and just another moment that I never imagined. You know, I never imagined that I would be in a comedy and be improv-ing with some of these like cool stand-ups and all this stuff.

45:10And as me in this body, it's been really incredible. And, you know, again, 10 years ago, I thought that I was making this announcement and my career would be over and to see me still, you know, pounding the pavement and doing it since then, I feel a lot of pride about that. How do you feel about, you know, when I worked in entertainment news, I saw how when there would be certain headlines that would repeat over and over again, they became somebody's story. Yeah. It was like the rest of them sort of like floated away in the media's eyes. Have you thought about MS being your story and how do you think about that.

45:48Yes. I'm so glad you brought that up. So that was also one of the things that was holding me back from talking about it because I felt like MS would enter into the room before I did. You know what I mean? People saw me like, oh, she has MS, you know, and then like looking for how it affected me. I think I was projecting a lot of my own judgments on myself onto other people and the world. But this is the entertainment industry. And even when I was promoting my book, when it first came out, every first question would be like, you hid your MS. And I was like, oh, I feel like that's such a small part of the book.

46:23Like, it's not about MS. You know what I mean? That just happened to be one of the things that happened to me along in my life and one of the things that has allowed me to grow and find myself. But yes, I mean, even as recently as when I got to play a doctor with MS on Grey's Anatomy, which was incredible and amazing and like so grateful for them for me to tell this story and to play this woman in her power, in her field that had to pivot herself to doing robotic surgeries, you know, because of the way that MS has affected her. It was so much about that. And even with my podcast, Messy, that I actually had to take a step back.

47:01I even called Christina. I called my reps and I said, I'm starting to feel like MS is my currency with the world. And I can't just have that be that. I have to feel like I can go on interviews. I can play roles that aren't about MS. Because that's not my day-to-day life. That's not—I can go a week without talking about the disease. Everyone around me, everyone in my family. This is just part of me. It's not who I am. It doesn't define me. And so I've had to learn and accept that that's just sometimes what will lead an interview. But then I try to just take the opportunity to remind people that this does not define me.

47:51But yes, it is 100 % been something that I've thought about, been concerned about. But in the end of the day, I cannot control control it. I can only control how I feel about it and how I move forward with it. And it has been nice with messy in particular. I've been able to share in a really honest way that I've never been able to before, which I actually think really opened me up to be able to be as honest and raw in the book as I was able to be. Because even when I talked about MS for a while, I still wanted to present as hireable and like, I'm okay though. And so finally in the podcast, I was like, no, these people want the real, they want to be seen, they want to feel validated in their experience.

48:34So I'm just like, I'm really just going to share how this affects me has just, I think just opened me up even more. And then I think even opened up me even more as an actress because to feel comfortable in your skin, to feel comfortable in your truth, to feel authentic has really translated into my creativity as well. I also feel you and Christina have a dynamic that brings more out of one another. Yes, 100%. 100%. I can imagine that she's given you some words and you've given her some words that you hold on to. Is there anything that comes to mind that she said to you that you really think about or vice versa?

49:12I mean, I remember when we were starting the podcast and she was like, Jamie, we're going to be real. I am going to talk about at all. I'm going to talk about everything that I'm feeling. And I was like, okay, I will meet you where you're at. Let's go. Let's do it. And it felt really liberating. And the thing about podcasting, right? It's just like us on a Zoom on our little mic. So it's like - You forget there's like millions or thousands of people listening. Yeah. And it's kind of nice. And to feel like to have that little tinge of like, oh God, everybody's just going to hear what we just talked about for an hour.

49:44And then it's like, great what do I have to hide anymore it's it's really it felt like it was kind of like the last puzzle piece to this chapter of just me really just letting it all out there and being unafraid and unattached to any type of response we spoke about the title of your book earlier so it was actually the subtitle that stood out to me so much it is a memoir of acceptance and hope and I felt like you were saying you wrote this book to turn a page. Was that right at all? Yes, 100%. What were you turning? I'm able to sort of acknowledge everything that I've been through, have such forgiveness and gratitude for it all and understand that in this particular moment in my life, I can pick and choose what I want to take with me and what I want to just leave behind.

50:39And so that turning of that page, it's like I can leave those stories that I've told myself about who I am and what I am and being good enough or not good enough behind. And I can take the lessons and I can take the experience and I can take the reminders too. Even in my deepest, darkest moments, like in retelling the story, I see the little blessings that were around me and I see where it led me, all the sliding door moments. And I just, I can move forward again now, like I was saying, of just of knowing that that is life and also knowing that I believe, and this is the words that I use, and we can all use different words and ways of talking about it, but God will put me in front of the road that I'm meant to go down, but I'm not going to go down it until I have the experiences and the knowledge to walk that path.

51:25And so knowing that I will not miss anything that's for me, but that I'm not going to do it until I'm ready. And just trusting that I'm in school still, you know what I mean? And it might not be my time. It might not be yet. My husband's favorite thing to tell me always is your story isn't over yet. And it's a true reminder. He put it, I'm like one of my, you know, moments where I was sort of feeling down and hopeless about things. He had a little post-it on my pillow that just said that. And your story's not over. I know. There's something about post-its that are such good reminders. I don't know if it's the bright colors.

51:59What is it? It just feels, because they're very intentional, right? It just feels like I need to remember this, whether it's an appointment or something like that. You're right. Post-its are, they're very specific and pointed and they're like, this matters. Yes. It's a note to self. I have them on my bathroom mirror and I think about it for some reason. I love it.

52:27Shortly after I enrolled at Rasmussen, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was like a bomb had just been dropped in my life. I reached out to Rasmussen. They immediately were like, Rosa, take what time you need. You can come back when you're ready. We are cancer-free today, and I'm just so grateful for Rasmussen for all of their support throughout my journey and for my own village. Rasmussen University. Find your seat and start now at rasmussen.edu. Hey, Donald. Really flying on that treadmill. I'm trying to run as fast as T-Mobile 5G home internet, Zach. Well, you better pick it up because now T-Mobile has the fastest 5G home internet according to Ookla Speed Test.

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55:00I loved reading about your relationship with James Gandolfini. I think anybody who's a Sopranos fan would love reading about it. But also when I was 10, I had a friend who you met, Carly, and her family had an in at the Emmys for some reason. And they had three girls in their family and each girl got to bring a friend. So I went to the Emmys and my dad loved the Sopranos and I was too young to really be watching. I was 10. But I would like try and stay up late and watch and hide. And I would pretend I was asleep. So I love James Gandolfini. And at the end of the show, I ran up to him. And I was like, I didn't know his real name.

55:38And I was like, Tony, Tony, I love your show. And in like the accent, he was like, how old are you? And I was like, I'm 10. And he goes, what the fuck are you doing watching my show? I told you that's what he would say. That's So funny. And I was like, you really are Tony. It was like a perfect moment. Yeah. But I loved the way you described him. It just, there was so much love and admiration there. It's all I feel when you bring up his name, when his face pops in my head. I feel like you were comfortable telling him about your diagnosis. Because that felt meaningful to me. Yes. Well, because from the beginning, I just felt like he always was watching me.

56:21but in a really beautiful way. You know, like I just felt like I can remember moments where, you know, I was in my own head, like kind of looking down the ground, thinking about whether it was the scene or what was going on. And I would, you know, then, you know, come out of my haze and look around and he would be watching me. He observed me and I didn't share myself openly or honestly then. I thought I did a good job of hiding it. but not to him. So there were little just moments throughout the show where he would, you know, even just be, you good kid? You good kid? And it was almost like he was laying the foundation work for me to eventually, when I was bubbling over and just needed to sell someone, him being the place to land.

57:10Because he had been watching me for so long and knowing that something was up, but too elegant to pry or push. Respected me enough to let me come to him, I guess. I don't know if he ever thought I would, but in that one moment that I talk about in the book where my life felt like it was imploding, the MS was really starting to present itself. I was going through a divorce and not telling anyone. I was getting called from set that I wasn't doing a good job acting and I wasn't telling anybody about anything that was going on that he finally just pulled me aside and was like, something is up. And then I just unloaded all of it on him.

57:53And I remember his first reaction was, you're just a kid. And he always reminded me of that. He always tried to remind me like, you don't have to know it all. You don't have to have it all figured out. You're so young and this is so big. I remember him one time. I don't know where we were. We were at, I don't know if it was an award show or whatever and cameras, red carpet, whatever. And I was doing my thing and I came off and he was like, this is a lot for you being the young girl on this big show. That's a lot for you. And that was it. And it was just such a small but significant acknowledgement of that I didn't even understand or ever have the space or thought to acknowledge for myself of what I was having to carry at that time.

58:46And he always, he always knew it and made it clear that he acknowledged it, which he didn't have to. I mean, he was the star of the show. He had so much on his plate and there was always room for him and space for him to support me. It makes it even more impressive that that's sort of the type of leader that he wanted to be. Just, I can't say enough amazing things. I mean, it's, I don't know if this is always the case, but it's just so rare to have such a talent like that. Like big, big talent. He had no desire to be a star. You know, he was just, it was conflicting for him to be as famous as he was because he loved acting and had such respect for the craft, but did not want to be acknowledged outside of that.

59:36He wanted to do a good job and put out good work and then disappear. But then also to be so kind. He really took his role as the leader of that show seriously. And he was the best. Do you take any pieces of Meadow with you? Did you feel, because there's moments in the book where you talk about almost forgetting that you're not her or that he's not your father. Yeah. And then you pop back into reality. Yeah. Well, I mean, I played her for 10 years, right? So, and I created her in very many ways. Like she really in the beginning came from me. Like my sassiest self was through Meadow and that pilot and, you know, laying my accent on thick and like fighting with my mom and fighting with my dad and rolling my eyes at my brother.

1:00:19Like that was all very natural to me. But then obviously as the show evolved, and our lives were very different, she became kind of this like alter ego for me to escape into. She was confident. She was smart. She was self-assured. She expressed herself. She advocated for herself in ways that I had no idea how to. And so she was sort of like this escape for me. But then also, I loved Jim and Edie and Robert so much. And there was such an alchemy amongst the four of us. And when we do our scenes together, and also I just like there were times when I just like I wanted Jim to be my dad I wanted it to be real I wanted the moment and they did they felt very real it was it was you know part of the spark and amazingness of the show was that we just we loved these characters so much and we all rooted for them in our own ways even though they were pretty despicable human beings but we were we we understood them and we love them and so yes I in my body my when my body and my mind and my eyes see someone from the sopranos that's family like that it is the same reaction I get when I see my blood family that's beautiful yeah okay I'm gonna do some quick rapid fire with you what is messier your purse your group chat your notes app or your emotions oh my group chat.

1:01:47What is your current hyper fixation? The fact that my hair is falling out. Oh, no. That's tough. It is. And I don't know what is it from the testosterone? Is it perimenopause? Like, I don't know what it is, but it's falling out. A reality show you could give a TED talk on. Any housewife or summer house this year. The most meadow thing about you. My accent. Your favorite metal line. Listen to Mr. Mob Boss. The most New York thing about you. Pizza forever. Now that you're a Texan, what's the most Texan thing about you? I say y 'all. Who from The Sopranos would be the most fun at a dinner party? Rob Eiler, my best friend.

1:02:26Or Aida Turturro, though. She's a close second. Which Sopranos character would have the most unhinged dating profile? Aida Turturro. Janice, for sure. Who would young Jamie be shocked that you became friends with? Lance Bass. What's a dream that you're glad didn't come true? Singing. Like being a pop star meaning. Oh, we have to talk about it. We didn't get to talk about that. I know, I know. I don't think it's as bad as you thought it was. I appreciate it. It felt really bad for me. Your most underrated form of self-care? Meditating. What is something that every woman should try once? A one-night stand.

1:02:58Wow, I love that. I think that's what everybody thinks and doesn't say on the podcast, so thank you for saying it. Yeah, just find a hot guy and just go without thinking and never want to see him again. Like I had one and he was amazing and I look back at it fondly and I have no regrets and I don't care where he is. I love that. What is a book you read that changed your life? Something you think everybody should read? The Alchemist. And then if you will grab the question, everything card game and pick one question. Who has influenced you the most and what did you learn from them? Our friend Ryan Weiss.

1:03:32Really? Mm-hmm. How beautiful. And I learned how to see myself and the world in a completely different way. Jamie Lynn Sigler slash Siggy slash Jamie. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're amazing. You're amazing.

1:03:54Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

1:04:26I have been with Rasmussen University since 2013, all virtual. All of my professors throughout the entire journey have been nothing but supportive of making me reach my dreams. Rasmussen professors, they want to see you grow so that you can be what you went to school to be. I'm so thankful for Rasmussen University for being able to make it so easy and seamless. Rasmussen University. Find your seat and start now at rasmussen.edu. And now, another appliance triumph from our friends at Grand Appliance. With three kids, I'm always cramming the washer full. So when we needed a new laundry set, I asked the experts at Grand Appliance for a big capacity washer with a dryer that could keep up.

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