The Diddy Verdict Explains EVERYTHING About Men + Power Right Now

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28:29Do you like capitalism? No. Do you think there's a better alternative? Yeah, of course there is. But I think enterprise is important, right? Yeah. But I don't think all enterprises necessarily need to be profitable for you to live, like struggle with the idea that if I'm not generating some sort of income for myself, I'm not worthy. We're all going to go through phases in life where we can't. Being a child, you can't. And being disabled, being elderly, right? So if my moral value is attached to what I contribute to the economy, am I less valuable? In capitalism, in the capitalist framework, that's the case.

29:03And capitalism is about like extracting surplus value. That's how the system makes money. It's not actually the inherent value, because if it was like, or how hard you're working, your cleaner would be paid a lot more than they are. Like the people working the hardest are paid the least in this capitalist framework. And I deeply present that. I agree. And similar to you, I love history. And so I look back and I think, was there a system doing it better? And what I struggle with is I haven't read about a system that did and I'm like can we make a new like is conscious capitalism even possible I don't know I think like the Scandinavian countries are onto something but then there's also like the Nordic paradox the fact that in that part of the world even though they have a lot of like legal equality and like equality in terms of how people live they have one of the highest rates of interpersonal violence right so there's going to be no perfect system I think this version of late state capitalism that we're in is not sustainable and it's not producing the outcomes that they want but then there is no perfect system.

30:04I think there's a dichotomy of capitalism versus socialism, but I fear between being a social, I'm probably a social democrat when it comes down to it, right? But everyone, I'm not here to necessarily argue for a particular system. I just know that the system we're currently in is really not working. And even people making lots of money feel bought. So I'm like, what's that about? That's not sustainable to me. I think people have turned on celebrity. I'm 35 years old. I share that to share the time I grew up in. And celebrity was venerated. We were obsessed with celebrity. I remember being at the gym and every woman would have a tabloid magazine, regardless of class or anything.

30:45And when I moved to L.A. in 2013, the capital of celebrity, people were still obsessed. And then something shifted. I can't point to necessarily the moment. Why do you think we no longer venerate celebrity? It's been demystified, right? There was a time to see a person's baby, the rollout of a celebrity baby. It's a magazine exclusive. It may be a TV exclusive. You used to get being a million dollars to remove the girl. And you had to go down the road and buy a magazine to see that. Like, there are very limited ways of being able to access celebrities. So you could really create this theater of, like, a Michael Jackson, right?

31:25And, like, people collapsing at concerts, all the Beatles. these people were so inaccessible but in the age of like instagram celebrities have made themselves so accessible and like anybody can kind of mean it we have influencer celebrity there's streamers who are like huge that maybe you've never heard of losing like the boundaries of like the old culture of celebrity they've been demystified now there are still a few from i'd say like the old guard like i'd say a tom cruise a beyonce are superstars but they came from a different era Taylor Swift, again, came from a different era. Yeah. And they are the last of that, like, there is still some sort of mythos around them.

32:01And you're just like, how do I get into this person? I love that you said mythos because I was thinking about this so much. The American dream is a mythology. Yeah. It's a story. And it's the reason that so many people, even people who live in countries like the Nordic countries that have decent state of living, if not great state of living, still want to come here. Yeah. Is that idea. and in reality only 8 % of people have class mobility here it is literally a mythology it is so rare that it actually happens to people and the story of celebrity has diminished I didn't think about that and it's like you know everyone talks about that Andy Warhol about like there's a future where everyone's going to be famous for 15 minutes 15 minutes which is remarkably like him being like this kind of futurist in that sense but I think the influencer economy like being this incredible business and then also i'd say like the kardashians really collapsed for celebrity it right because it's just like sure you may have this celebrity who has a publicist and the studio system and a stylist and the whole team around them but they can't necessarily compare to a girl that can just do a get ready with me and get a million views and like shopify whatever it is it's generating like hundreds of thousands of dollars a month like yeah the direct consumer a girl of like an Alex Earl, who the whole appeal of her is just like, this is somebody I think I'd be in the sorority bit, right?

33:25This is somebody I know and admire, but she probably wouldn't be my friend because I'm not cool enough, but I can access her with my phone. And that just gets eyed. And she's on the same platform as your old garge, pristine celebrity. Like they're all occupying the same space. They're all on TikTok, they're all on Instagram. And so what is the currency of celebrity if you are on the same platform as my favorite influencer, who is just some stay at home mom with her two kids? You know what I mean? Like just the kind of mundanity of it. Like these are just regular people living regular lives who make lots of money and you're alongside a celebrity.

34:01The only thing that actually makes a celebrity stand out now, I would actually say, is if you have obscene wealth, like a lot of money. Like the celebrities with money, then you're like, well, this is still a celebrity. even though there's plenty of celebrities who don't have money, as we've done. You're right. I was just going to ask you if there's any celebrity that you think is celebrity-ing wealth. What would you say is wealth? Okay, tell me if you think I could add or subtract anything. But I think instinctually, they are liked in a majority sense, or well-regarded, maybe is a better word.

34:32Their work feels authentic to them. They're working consistently. And maybe the mythology aspect. They've created some sort of mythology. I don't know. Who does it well? Because I think part of what doing it well is in this era is also managing to be somewhat neutral. Oh, interesting. Where everything is very politicized, right? Not rocking the boat. Yeah, who have created this big tent where people have different ideologies who feel like I can still be a fan of you. I think there are brands that do that. I think Housewives does that really well. Like if the Real Housewives universe was a singular person, because they have a very diverse audience in terms of how they vote, how they live, racially.

35:17Like you see Bravo, all sorts of people, like gender and sexuality. I think Doja Cat being an anti-celebrity is very interesting to me. That's what works right now. Yeah, because she's like, she kind of doesn't like her fans. She's like, I have to have fans and I just have to exist. but I want to make my music. I think some of the younger millennials, the Gen Z girls, they're kind of figuring out something a bit different. Like Olivia Rodrigo, I think is really good at that. But in terms of millennials, no one immediately comes to mind. I saw Jennifer Lopez a few years ago. She was releasing her album and she came online and said something about if you vote or do X, Y, and Z, I'll send you a poster.

35:56And I was like, is this 1990? Like, who is buying? And I love J-Lo, but who is buying a poster? her and I was like there's this whole old school of like machine yeah built around people like her that just does not work anymore and I think that was part of the backlash against her that maybe wasn't warranted but I think she's like a great in terms of a celebrity animal I think her ability to just endure I'm always impressed and taken by those type of celebrities who like can be distinct errors and still feel really relevant because not everyone can do that i think jennifer lopez does that really well i think beyonce does that really well i think mariah carrie has done that really well like there's certain women who are really great at that whereas other people like when the digital thing happened and yeah you know obviously streaming destroyed perfection of your business if you're a musician like yeah you're no longer selling cds and that ability to like I hate that word.

36:52Yeah. But some celebrities were better at doing that than others. I have a theory on that. Okay, tell me. The three people you named are pop stars. There's like a pop star element to each of them. And I think women in music, particularly pop stars, their mindset from the beginning, because of people like Diana Ross and Madonna, are like, I have to reinvent every single album. So they're used to the reinvention. Yeah. And an actor wants to be themselves. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And I think it's hard. Yeah. I think Will Smith is somebody that did it well. He's a great social media. I agree. Whoever does his social media with him.

37:26And I think Will Smith has always been someone that has been able to, like, you know, from rapper to serious actor, obviously, he's got fresh prints. And, like, he's very good at the internet. And not all celebrities are. That's a really good point. You wrote that Lauren Sanchez might be one of the most important pop culture figures of 2025. Yes. So curious why. Well, I think it's because she kind of, with this marriage, right, lives. at the intersection of pop culture, hair and celebrity in a way that most people don't recognize because they look at her and it's like this trope of like, they think she's a bimbo because of how she looks.

38:02So she's got plastic surgery. It doesn't help like she's wearing lingerie at the inauguration. And you know what I mean? But she's kind of become this big moment this year that going to space, turning like gelping and letting Therese into astronauts. That was all her. She kind of breaks the internet with her wedding and then has this digital vote cover shortly afterwards, co-chairing the Met Gala, hosting Kris Jenner's party. Like these events that like everyone's watching, even though they don't want to watch. And she's like the engine behind it all because Jeff Bezos didn't have that image with his former wife.

38:37And I think she was the one that's like, I understand how to get you into places that you maybe wouldn't otherwise be. I'm friends with the poor people that you want to be around, but it's shifting pop culture. like the Met Gala thing is major being announced as a sponsor and her name is on it it's like Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez Bezos there's rumors on firing Vogue or what's happening next but I think just especially through her husband's influence of just owning the Washington Post founder of Amazon it's very rare that we see a woman being able to harness somebody else's power and like make it about themselves but also shift culture and I think it does affect how people read that she's Latina in this moment of like a real aggressive think anti-Latino sentiment in this country because of how it's associated with immigration one of the most visible women and the most wealthiest women in this country by function of who she's married is a Latina woman and that dichotomy is something that I find very interesting and I'm not into like representation politics I I think it's very hollow.

39:39But I think those types of seeming contradictions, for instance, are interesting to me. I was thinking about marriage a few months ago. And my therapist actually was talking to her about it. And she was like, well, there's still this element of because we live in a, hate the word, patriarchy. We live in a patriarchal society that heterosexual marriage still represents proximity to power. And so the excitement around engagement and marrying is like, oh, this person with power has chosen to be with me. Therefore, I have more power. And I know marriage is about more than just that. I mean, that's a good way to put it.

40:18I thought of it because you said she's one of the wealthiest and most powerful people by proximity of who she married. We're in this moment of, I think, deciding what fourth wave feminism is. Yeah. And she's an interesting character in it. Yeah. I mean, she's married pretty well. independent of that very like complex and interesting woman like she's a pilot she's a news anchor news anchor like so she's on it like she's an intelligent woman he's an intelligent man but i think as an operator what she's been able to do and witnessing it is very interesting to me because they're all strategic moves that have had like pop cultural implications and then you're looking at i think the met gala sponsorship was interesting to me because you You know, Bezos is interested in culture with a small C, whether it's like Amazon and the movies, et cetera, et cetera.

41:06It's very small C culture. But with the Met Museum, that's culture with a big C. That's a completely different profile of philanthropy and type of person. And that overlaps to me with the pop and with culture, you know, with a big C. I'm like, this is a fascinating move.

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44:42You talk a lot about soft power. It's actually a phrase that I heard, but I didn't know too well until I started reading your sub stack. What's the biggest misconception people have about soft power? So like hard power is like, in international relations, it's like nuclear weapons. Like do I have bombs? Do I have nuclear weapons? Do I have like the economic means to enforce those things? Like if we're going to go to war tomorrow, and it's like who has the guns and the bombs? who's winning this thing, right? So it's like, hard power. It's like Russia, it's China, it's the US. Soft power is a bit different, right?

45:16It's saying in a very lazy and crude way. It's like these intangible cultural cachet that can spread influence, right? And a great arm of that is, some will call it propaganda, but like it's the film, the music, the fashion, all of these things change how the world sees you. You don't have to use the brute force about like, I'm going to invade you and bomb you, you can actually launch an invasion through the art you make. Maybe a good example tell me how the Armory will sponsor movies like Top Gun, and it increases people wanting to be in the art. Or even like, there's a real history in American television that intensified after 9-11 of the way you depict your enemies.

45:59How do you make Muslim appear on screen? or you know like so you had the trope of the brown terrorists which is something that you see again and again in american television and film that's also a way of deploying soft power how you make your adversaries look through entertainment and so when i talk about soft power i talk about like u.s having an incredible amount of soft power like hollywood being this great machine and it's worked since i think post-world war ii of like oh my god the americans are cool you know what i mean The Americans make great stuff, like, you know, growing up, like the boy band wave, all the boy bands and the girl bands, they all came from the U.S.

46:36And that stuff was great for America's international branding. It's something to be said, where your most beloved artist is from America. I think that's slightly shifting now. But it's going to take a while, but America still has an incredible amount of stock power influence in terms of just like, it's popular export. Who do you see making waves? I think Kim Kardashian and Meghan Markle. You always say they're the same person. I don't want to get into that. I'm going to get in trouble. I think they are speaking to each other in a way that I find interesting, similar but different. But I think that as an export, like the royal family wanted to launder her reputation for that too.

47:12But a biracial woman who's married into this institution that has a lot of problems, great for perhaps rehabilitating their image. Didn't work out like that. But Meghan Markle's beloved around the world, whether people like it or not. And part of that is because she appears extremely ambiguous. So a lot of people can map themselves onto her in a similar way to Kim Kardashian, who like can pass as many things and has kind of passed as many things in her career quite cynically. So my feeling is like these are very powerful soft power America has at its disposal. But that's kind of changing. They're coming from different parts of the world, I think.

47:47Do you think there's a powerful cultural lie that women are being told right now? I think the trad wife stuff is, I mean, it's just dumb. I'm like, no man is going to take care of you for that long, unless you get something out of it. Men only do things that are good for themselves. That's the thing. Everyone should do things that are good for themselves, right? But I think this idea that in an attempt to kind of escape the horrors of capitalism, which are bad, women do not enjoy being in the workforce. I meet very few women who love their work, right? And often when you have children, that intensifies.

48:15You're like, I'm doing this job. I'm stuck in middle management. I've hit the glass ceiling. I don't want to be here. I want to be at home, right? And so I think what the Tried Wife movement is doing is kind of speaking to that overall burnout. I think Anne Helen Peterson is brilliant. She's on Patreon. She writes about that a lot in her work on culture study. And it's just this idea that women are burnt out, women are tired. And what the Tried Wife image does, it sells this fantasy of this retreat into your home, which, I mean, I hate to cook. I'm never going to cook. But I would love to be tablescaping all day and, like, doing dinner parties.

48:49and there is something whimsical about that fantasy, but it is a fantasy, but it feels like a compelling fantasy when you're on your phone and you're like seeing Nara Smith, even though she's performing as this thing and you're like, maybe this is something I can add too. And I think that is the biggest lie because you never see old trad wives, right? Because the man divorces. He finds a young trad wife. He finds a young trad wife or he finds like the fun girl he always wants. Like, you know, the lie of like the good girl trad wife. It's just like women should just be themselves. Like all of these tropes that they sell us just they don't ever serve us just be yourself but I think that's a big thing that a lot of women are buying into especially Gen Z women million women of my age are just like okay maybe if I can just find a man to take care of me or one woman I know said why not just have one boss instead of 10 I think it's a lie and I think long term a lot of people may regret the decision I think women who are choosing that because very few men can be trusted also and tell me what you think about this, something I hear a lot is that specifically Gen Z women will say, I am not a feminist and they don't want to be feminist because they say like, I want a man to open the door for me.

49:57And I want a man who will pay for dinner or help make me a trad wife. I want to stay at home. They say, I want to be a Lululemon mom or a Range Rover mom. And what I'm struggling with explaining, maybe it's been part of that fantasy because when we got access to the workforce in a real way, we didn't diminish any of our tasks at home statistically, at least in America. And so women were doing all the domestic labor and working outside the home and they were burnt out and are burnt out. And so I understand the want to have one boss instead of 10, but I don't know how to explain the other aspect of that.

50:33And I think when young women say that, it's an abstraction. It's a theory. And I think it actually really diminishes what stay at home mothers do. It's incredibly hard work, even if you have money and resources. It makes it maybe a bit easier to have money and resources, but it's still really hard to learn. It's 24-7. You don't get to retire. If you assume that role of a homemaker, your husband retires one day, you're still going to have to make the home, right? So these women are giving up an incredible amount, and we glamorize it. And when we glamorize it, we diminish how difficult it is. And I think you're actually disrespecting the job.

51:08Because I'm like, if you really want to be a Lululemon mom, trust me, as somebody that has three kids, you're managing schedules. You're going to cycles. You're driving from one part of town to another. The kid is sick. You have to be home with it. Sure, you're wearing Lululemon, but you're barely at the gym. If you're trying to be a good parent and a good homemaker, it's an incredible sacrifice. So I think it's kind of this fantasy that it's just like, I'm going to be there with my Stanley Cup and then my Lululemon or my Aloe Yolba. And just, I'm like, no, I go to bar with women who are stay at home.

51:38mothers and it's like they're one street in the deck they're like that creep out and then they're dashing off and they're like oh I can only do this now because my youngest is in the elementary school because before that I was completely devoted to the home so I think it's a way of like undermining the work that women who are working within the home are doing in a way I'm not a stay-at-home mother but I have friends who are and they are incredible and it's really hard so it's you're indulging in a fantasy and secondly you're not acknowledging the risks of that decision it is for risk. So I'm like, if you are going to do it, make sure you have a husband that contributes to your retirement account, have stuff in writing, et cetera, et cetera.

52:15So should it go left, you're still taking care of because you are contributing to your household and you should have some sort of tangible benefits. It's like this world where you do everything for a man, including raising his children and you're paying for it in some way, it just doesn't exist. What's interesting to me is I have a friend who's a woman who sort of had the opposite experience. She divorced her husband. She was working the whole time. They didn't have a prenup. And she had to pay him. And she was like, I can't believe I have to pay this, like, do nothing. I would have killed myself.

52:47I had to, like, think about my gender expectations. I mean, that's happening. I know women paying Alibaba. You've got to be careful. I know, but we think about it differently because women are contributing at home. The man usually isn't. It reminds me of it. It's like, if you're a man under the patriarchy, you should be making more money than me. So what is wrong with you that I am paying you? You have failed. Like, the system is set up for you to thrive. This is so funny. No, it's true. I'm not into, you know, this lonely man epidemic, like everyone's talking about, like, feel so bad for the man.

53:21I'm like, the world is set up for you to succeed. And baby, you're not managing to do that. What is wrong with you? But I feel bad for them. Why? They don't feel bad for you. I know, they don't feel bad for me at all. Why do you feel bad for them? I think when there's such a large group of people that are struggling, like something is going wrong and I don't want to see them struggle. But the data is showing that the group struggling most in America right now, black women, lost the most jobs. Like if you look at the statistics, like all the data indicates, like this idea that there is like this lost boy struggling man epidemic.

53:55Like when you really dig into their data, who was pushed out of the workforce post-COVID? Those mothers who became caregivers, right? And a lot of those women never went back to the workplace, whereas men are in the workplace. So some of it is like this myth. However, there are men among us who are struggling for different reasons, but you are struggling because of the patriarchy. So help us take it down, right? I think that's the interesting point. And feminism has an answer to that question because feminism has always been concerned about the liberation of all people, including men because they see that patriarchy damages men.

54:31We're like, yeah, the idea that you can't cry and you have to hide your feelings, you're supposed to be like, that's not good, that's not healthy. I'm a woman. We have an answer to that question. We're trying to create a world and a future where that doesn't exist. And it's like I'm raising my son. I hope he's feminine when he grows up. I don't know if he will be. But like also my son's very creative. He likes cats, you know, he likes music. I'm allowing him faith to do that and I want a world where my son and my daughters can thrive however I know just by the nature and the mechanisms of this world yeah it's set up in a way that it's easier for my son to thrive or if my daughter makes different choices she's going to be judged for them like if my daughter's grandpa decides to be child free I know women who feel that they're not trusted because they don't have kids but then if you do have kids you take a career penalty whereas when men's wives have children their salaries go up how can we feel sorry for these men, Danielle.

55:24I know. I agree with you. I mean, in the workplace, 100%. I guess it's less about men and it's more about the suffering of people. And I'm like, it's not a zero sum game. And I think for years you were right to your point. Like feminists have been saying we want equality for all. And I see the human suffering. Maybe I bought into the mythology of the Scott Galloway. Women are suffering way more. I would say I don't like oppression, Olympic stuff. I think suffering is valid and even when we speak about men we can't treat them as a monolith right the experience of a young gay boy in certain parts of this country like there's a huge suffering if you're in the bible belt and you're gay sure you'll grow out to be a man but if you have an intersectional lens you know like even what well the closer you are to femininity the more we hate you exactly oh we know that like among black men and police brutality so i'm being flippant but But it's just like, even when we dig into men, disabled men have certain experiences.

56:20Neurodivergent men have certain experiences. So there are men that are oppressed too. So I'm like, you know, from a completely structural perspective, I acknowledge that. And I feel that we need to create a world that makes it easier for them. However, I don't necessarily like buy into this refrain that I think media and culture are telling us now, like we have to be so concerned with these lost boys and men. And I'm like, but what about the women who haven't even solved that yet? And then where was the, that's kind of my opinion. So Dick Cheney was famously anti-LGBTQ for years until his daughter came out as a lesbian and he switched his position.

56:57And I think about that all the time because oftentimes people who like don't want to deal with the words of patriarchy and oppression and all the buzzwords in our culture right now are people who haven't had to have the experience of being part of any of those groups. What do you say to the person listening who's like, I'm exhausted by the buzzwords? Yeah, I am too. It's completely relatable. Like, these words are accurate descriptions. But like, you know, I speak about it a lot in my work about how there's been kind of this trafficking of academic language. It's very rich and very important. And it's made its way into our, like, general cultural lexicon in a way that, like, people are resisting.

57:37Right? And sometimes it's because maybe the way those ideas are expressed, no one likes to be spoken down. It's not a nice experience if you hear somebody using this new term and they're telling you you're a bad person and you don't even know the term. There's this reflexive, like, get that away from me. And I think we're living in the backlash to that. But words mean things, and it's always good to learn new words. And if we use them the right way, they can actually be like real tools of connection. You know what I mean? I don't use the word gentrification. I'll actually explain it. I'll be like, yeah, rents are rising because people with more money are moving into this neighborhood.

58:11Because once you say gentrification, people go, I don't want to hear it. But if you say it like that, it's like very legible to people. So I'm sick of the overuse of the words, but I also think the words are really important. It's just like, how do we use these terms? And do we use them in a way that it feels accessible to people and people can understand? And people are like, okay, now I can use that word, right? So it's not othering someone. It's not othering someone. It's just like... Just a definition. It's just a definition. That's what all words are. Because what often happens is then you take a word and you start using it as a slur, like D-E-I.

58:42like, I'm starting calling people DEIs, and it's just, like, it's been weaponized in a way that I find really sad, right? Because if you look at, like, the intention behind it, it's always just, like, making a more inclusive world where more of us can work and be happy, and our workplaces are more comfortable for everyone, but it went left. So I understand that fatigue with the words. I'm just, like, okay, how can we find a way to add cultural thinkers or pseudo-academics like myself being, like, less pretentious, right? And then people, like, feel, like, okay, I can get in for this. I wouldn't necessarily use this word usually, but oh, this is helpful.

59:16This is helping me understand the phenomenon that exists in everyday life. That's probably the best reply I've heard to that. It's well said.

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1:02:40okay i want to do some 2026 pop culture predictions okay do you think we're heading into a more hopeful year or a more chaotic world culturally speaking i think people's appetite for chaos is waiting like people are really fatigued so i see people being drawn to things that are like more you know hopeful upworthy you remember that website i see people bleeding more into that because it's just the algorithm version of just like chaos or that i do think people are tired so there'll be more is there a cultural conversation that we've been avoiding that you think will erupt this year? I don't know which one it will be, but I think humans were very weird.

1:03:20Like we like to zoning on one thing. I think there's going to be a new frontier of whatever the culture war is supposed to be. I don't know what it is going to be, but it feels like something's coming. What do you think we're underestimating about AI's effect on culture? I think that people don't realize that maybe it's because like I have a lot of mom friends. I'm in a group with like three of my closest friends from high school and they can't stand me because every time they use AI, I'm like judging them. I'm like, girls, what is wrong with you? Stop it. But I'm realizing as a tool, it's like something that people are really integrating into their everyday life.

1:03:53So even me, who's kind of like an AI skeptic, I'm like, oh, this is like a habit that's become embedded in a way that like, you know, when Alexa first came into the homes, you were just like, oh, that's weird. You're not going to be like, Alexa, what's the time? But now you're like, wait, you're like, Alexa, what's the time? Alexa, can you play this song for me. So I think we're underestimating how much it's already becoming part of people's daily routine. And it's beyond like cheating to write essays. But I think that's what everyone talks about. It's just like people are using it as like an adjunct tool to make their lives easier and becoming increasingly dependent on it.

1:04:23How do you think the political climate of 2026 is going to shape pop culture? I think that for the last year, there's been a real nervousness about making art that is hostile to this administration. The fear of like, I have your show being taken off air, losing your contract. Like there's real fear. I think the death of Charlie Kirk was a really instructive moment about like, what can people say and how do people say it? But I think in the coming year, there's going to be a lot of irreverence because that's where the moon is going. Because even within the camp that's favorable to the current administration, there's a lot of fracturing.

1:05:00Like they don't all feel the same. Like there's a lot of infighting now. and I think that infighting is going to create a space for like people like oh I can say what I want I'm going to do what I want because the people that would police me and try and get me cancelled you know like the reverse cancel culture whatever you want to call it they're fighting. I see that happening already. Yeah so I think it's just more irreverence and it's just making art that is perhaps more I don't know punked and I think that's the influence of like AI because now it needs to feel human and tangible and it needs to feel different and so you're just going to make things that are like irreverent, provocative, and just feel like real.

1:05:35A24 is like a well-known production company and they make a lot of mainstream indie films for anyone listening who's not familiar. And they've been around for a while, but they're having such a moment. And I think it's because of that. Feels human, right? Feels real. It's gritty. Yeah, gritty. Okay, you write that there's a popular theory among a certain type of critic that we're in a time of cultural stasis. Yes. What does that mean? Oh my God, I'm going to cite David Marks. He's written a book called Blank Space, which I'm reading right now, which is great. And he's just talking about how we got to this point where all the stars are the same.

1:06:09Nothing seemed to have changed for the last 15 years. We went back 15 years and we're like, who are all the famous people? They are all the famous people today. It's this idea that culture, particularly culture, isn't evolving and growing, and we're not seeing any new stars or new genres. It's everything so derivative. I do think that's happening, but I think it's changing. I think people want something new, and where I don't see it changing is like the influencer space. They all look the same. I'm getting to the point where I can't tell my influencers apart. I don't know if you feel that way.

1:06:34All the ones I follow are wearing the same stuff. When I want to search somebody's handle, because you know sometimes you follow someone and you like them. You get their names now. They can get their name. Because sometimes you're like, oh, I like this person. TikTok isn't showing them to me anymore. I liked her dog or whatever it is. But you're like, what's their name? And back in the day, I knew all the critters there. I knew their handles offhand. I could type it onto YouTube. I knew where to found that. But now, like, maybe it's because also TikTok is not a chronological experience. The flow isn't there.

1:07:02But it's just like, I don't remember anyone's names. It's just like, it's this kind of monoculture in the influencer. So I think in the influencer world, it would stay like that. Yeah. Because the algorithm kind of needs that. But I think in music and in fashion, I see a bit, you know, more texture and change. Do you think celebrities will get more political or retreat from politics in 2026? You can be political without being ideological. For instance, homelessness is like a political cause. I just don't think there should be people on the street like we need better housing. It's a political cause, but it's not ideological, right?

1:07:36And so I think people align themselves more like political causes, like homelessness, feeding the needy and food back, you know, stuff that is just like political causes, but can extensively be seen as ideological neutral. I think people are going to wear their ideology less and less because I think a lot of people don't know what to believe and they're afraid to be identified as either left or right you know but I think celebrities will continue to embrace causes you can't get in trouble for like cat fostering let's love dogs yeah dogs like oh adopt the dog and everyone's like oh I love that everyone loves dogs right so I think there's going to be more of the cause stuff that feels vaguely political but it's not ideal are we going to be more into celebrity or less more into celebrity because I think people just have this yearning to worship something and we know our civic institutions are going you know people don't go to like temples or synagogues or churches anymore like you need that need to like venerate yeah and gather still exists i think there'll be like more club chalamets but making fan clubs does that make sense like the fan club is gonna come and to have the fan club you need a celebrity to be a fan club you know what i mean i know this contributes my argument about the downfall of celebrity but i think that will return well because there's community in it yeah which people are craving or meet up around a person yeah you know what i mean so right because i want to meet someone who has a similar interest interest right so i think that celebrities are like a great conduit for that being like oh we're all into this celebrity or all into this band and we're like the fan club of that in this town and we're going to meet up at this coffee shop once a month because we're a fan of this.

1:09:15I think people have that need for real world connection and celebrities are a great device to do that. Because I've made so many friends because of like, oh, we all love Housewives or we're going into Beyonce. We're going to see that. Speaking of Beyonce, I know you're a fan. I'm a great big fan. You said that we might be seeing the beginning of Beyonce's farewell to her fans. Lay out the evidence, Christiana. I mean, I think it's just a function of she's getting older, right? And I don't know how old your parents are, but I'm looking for my parents and aging and my dad retired this year. And you're just like, I'm getting older, right?

1:09:46And so with the time you tour less, I think there's that element of it. I think that she's laying out these acts and Act 3 is coming and that feels like, you know, she's very intentional. I think so the three of those albums are supposed to be experienced together. And then I'm just like, it feels like a Vegas residency. It feels like a retirement tour. Going to Cowboy Carter, going to that tour and like how much archival footage there was from her childhood. I was like, it felt like the beginning of a third world. I think she's always going to exist, kind of going to be like a Diana Ross. And the remarkable thing about Beyonce is that she's been, you know, famous for decades.

1:10:21And she's still not a legacy act. She's like a contemporary act that like changes culture. She's exiting state, but doing it very gracefully on her terms. Reality TV is not dying. It's definitely mutating. What's it mutating into? The new frontier seems to be like the TikTok vlog, the YouTube vlog, as almost people self-producing their reality shows. Yeah. You know, whether it's like a weight loss journey, whether it's a grief journey, whether it's like moving to another part of the world, it's kind of like self-produced reality TV that feels a bit different from a vlog because they're kind of borrowing like reality TV.

1:10:57They're not filming themselves. It's like they actually have like mini crews almost, like especially like the more professionalized family vlogs that just feel like now. I'm not watching a reality TV show immediately. I may be like, let me go on TikTok and watch this series on like, who the fuck did I marry? Or the Danish deception. Or like, you know, when people tell their true life stories, that kind of feels like the reality TV vacation, the new frontier of it. And you're like, okay, I'd rather watch that because it's so compelling rather than like another episode of reality TV where you just know someone's going to throw a drink, right?

1:11:31The Celebrity Apology. What's the new PR playbook? It's doing an interview. we're going to reference an actress who we won't mention. Okay. Will you kind of vaguely apologize? But you just outright apologize? I have a friend who's like very anti-celebrity apologies. He's just like, they're just the most stupid thing. Because he's like, who are you apologizing to? Like, if you did something to a person personally, you should apologize to that person. He was like apologizing to the masses never works. Because what you was making? I think celebrities are probably going to be more careful to avoid being in a situation where you need to issue that kind of apology.

1:12:08They never really work. Trump changed it too because he's anti-apology. It's just like Teflon. Yeah, you keep going. There's something to it. And then people are like, you're breaking the social norm. Okay, what can we do? Nothing. Will we cancel the concept of cancel culture? You know, it was always kind of overstated. I think like the first real instance online was like the Justin's Daco, like the playing tweet that went out and, you know, she lost her job. But in the end, she got her job again, which I think was instructive of what cancel culture is. Kevin Spacey recently spoke at the Oxford Union.

1:12:39Time has always shown that these people that were canceled figured it out eventually. It's always very scary if Diddy does that. Oh, I think he will. Of course he will. He will do. Yeah, he's still got fans. He's still got re-enter society. Re-enter society. I think, have you watched the documentary? Yeah. So you see those scenes where people know he's probably going to be arrested soon, and they still want to take pictures with him. And they've seen the Cassie video. Remember, all these people asking for pictures. But they were all men. They were all men. They were all men. Because women see that video.

1:13:07I almost didn't watch the doc because I was like, I can't see. The video is horrible. But you talk to women offline. And if you look in the comments. It's true. If you look in the comments, there are women that are like, she was there. Signed up for the money. She signed up for the money. You know, that feeling that like, oh, there's a guy called Ramon Wiggins who's one of the bloggers who followed the trial and said something interesting. He was like, people just see it as luxury abuse. And kind of everyone gets abused. Oh, wow. At least you've got the luxury. You know, like, I think there is an element of that.

1:13:33And then you'll see the settlement. I think there is a world where Diddy rehabilitates himself and says he's a family man and goes to church and that's forgiveness. And there is going to be a part of Hollywood and the broader world who are just like, yeah, you have your back. I mean, OJ was able to come back, right? This is rapid fire. Okay. Who's the most interesting person in culture right now, Tico? Lauren Sanchez-Basin. A celeb or public figure that people underestimate. Sydney Sweeney. A celeb or public figure people overestimate. Sydney Sweeney. What's your most controversial pop culture opinion?

1:14:09Jennifer Lopez is probably one of the most masterfully delusional and wonderful entertainers we've ever seen. The smartest decision that you've ever made. Marrying might happen. Something that every woman should try once. I'm so boring. I haven't tried anything. You don't have to have tried it yourself. Oh, I have a shroom. Apparently. They say, I'm too scared to do it. But I've been told shrew. So many people have said drugs is the answer to that question. What's the most radical thing you've ever done for your own life that has nothing to do with work? I think choosing to have three kids. I thought you were going to say moving to LA.

1:14:43I love your answer. Why is it radical? Because I knew what it would perhaps do to my life, like the kind of unsettling. But I did it anyway. I could see it wouldn't be easy. I did it anyway. And I think that's a radical thing because normally the conservative choice is like the path of least resistance versus the radical choice is like the thing that's hard. In hindsight, what was your cost benefit analysis? I don't know. See how they turn out. No, they're great. What part of yourself did you have to unlearn to become the woman that you are sitting here? I had to like let go of needing people to agree with me.

1:15:20That's one. and to actually let go of I'm a very community person and I'm a very progressive politics and for a long time it was like those bad people over there that have a different view of me and now I realize in order to be effective and maybe get people to see a different point of view I need to be able to connect with people that are different from me and that I don't actually agree with and that's very hard because that's not how I naturally operate but once I was able to get into that mentality. It just, I think, mainly a person that has work but is actually able to bring lots of different people in a way that I think is maybe really important.

1:15:57It is, and it's rare. You have a very diverse fan base. Yeah, they would never get on. I have, like, Trumpers. I have Mormon wives. I have, like, queer folk. I have, like, black radical feminists. I think I have a very broad audience that in theory should not get on, but they come back to my work. And I think we need more of that. And not even like in a Kumbaya way that I think is unhealthy that kind of Obama perpetuated, but more in a way of just like, we need to figure this stuff out, right? So where are the places where there are big tenants and everyone can be under them and just work through the issues of our time?

1:16:34So well said. What's a book that you read that changed your life, something you think everybody should read? I always recommend The Wolf of Other Sounds by Isabella Wilkinson. She's one of my favorite writers. Brilliant. She's British, right? No, she's American. Not? No. She just lives in London. I don't know if she lives in London. I've tried to interview her so many times and it seems on her website that she lives in London. Oh, I don't know. I thought she was American first. Yeah. That's funny. Okay. Will you grab the question everything card game and pick whichever card comes to you? This is not tarot, right?

1:17:02My mom won't like that. No, I promise. It's just a random question. Okay. Do plants thrive or die in your care? Die. The only thing I keep alive on my kids. Barely even myself. Even succulents die in my care. Yeah, yeah. Christiana, I could talk to you for so long. And in the interest of your time, I'm going to end the interview. But thank you for this. This has been so fun.

1:17:27OK, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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