The Internet is Messing Up Our Kids with Dr. Shefali

26:23Now, because of that, we are at a high risk for our boys to follow that model. And if we don't pay attention to how our boys are going to get seduced by that wounded male ideology, which blames women and children for their problems, which holds themselves to no standard of ethics or integrity, which removes all accountability and responsibility, which doesn't believe in empathy and vulnerability and honesty and transparency. So if we are not careful, boys will grow up being seduced by that wounded male ideology and think that that's the way to be a man. Yeah. So adolescence for me highlighted because that 12 year old boy in that documentary was so angry with the girl because she rejected him or quote unquote made fun of him or mocked him.

27:20And because he was so internally fragile, which our boys are just like our girls and because he felt so much just like our girls do. See, people think that boys don't feel boys feel very deeply. They just have a very different chemistry and expression around it. But because he felt so deeply and because he felt so rejected, but he had nowhere to turn and wasn't taught to honor his feelings and to cry and to go to his parents and to say, I need help and to be vulnerable. But what he was taught instead by the manosphere, by the wounded male ideological manosphere that is out there, he was taught that women should not, females should not turn you down.

28:01And females are at your beck and call and for your pleasure. and, you know, women are nasty if they do and you should get, you know, hold them accountable versus hold yourself. And because boys have not been taught about the power of consent and just because you have desire doesn't mean you have access. Because we haven't taught our boys this, this boy fell prey to the manosphere and killed the girl because she rejected him. That's it. That's all that happened. And he was so disconnected from the pain of that moment that he was able to lie about it. Now, this is a 12-year-old boy. Now, you can call him a narcissist, sociopath, an evil, you know, particularly evil, vile human being, or you can ask deeper questions of how did he get here?

28:49From beautiful parents, from caring parents, a sweet boy. How did he split off from his heart? and that you know spiked in me this huge alarm but also an inspiration to do something right yeah I can cry and scream and scare everybody or I can say to myself how can I help solve this problem in a small way and that's the whole impetus and the inception for choosing to write raising conscious sons. And so then I was like, I'm going to write this book. I'm going to change the world. I'm going to help parents raise healthy boys so that I can save my daughter. I can save us women. So we can stop blaming men because they're so easy to blame.

29:38They're mostly unconscious, not most men, but a lot of men are mostly unconscious. And we can keep yelling and blaming and me tooing. But if we don't go deeper to how did this boy get to be like this? I mean, is it just that half our sex species is just, they're just all assholes? No, they can't be, right? And they're being raised by women mostly. So what's going on there? So there is something deeper that we're not addressing. And I wanted to go there. I think my book, Raising Conscious Sons is my most important book. It may not get a lot of traction, but I feel like I've contributed to helping create a blueprint for a conscious masculinity.

30:22And then of course, when I wrote the book for the boys, I had to write one for the girls. So I wrote that one first, actually, for the girls. Interesting. Yeah, because I wanted to get the easy one out. I'm a girl, I'm a daughter, I'm a daughter and a mother of a girl. So that was easy to write. But then when I got to the boys one, I interviewed lots of men. I actually interviewed a hundred kids for these books just to make sure I was on the right track, just to make sure I had my finger on the pulse. But then for the boys book, I interviewed a lot of adult men and talked to them about porn, about their sexuality, about who was there the first time they had a wet dream at night, who was there for their first erection.

31:02And the answer is nobody, nobody, nobody, right? Nobody helped them through that initiation to manhood. And that, I believe, is the problem for our perverted sexuality by men today. And does it matter which parent helps them through it? Like, should that be a male figure? Yes, ideally, because we women have no clue what a male wet dream or an erection feels like and how out of control it feels for a boy or a man. I mean, there's studies where, you know, they test how many erections a man has a day. I mean, there are many a day, a day. So imagine a boy who is now sitting on this unbridled sexuality and nobody is helping him normalize it.

31:48And a mother can try better than nobody. But we want to get a man in there talking about it in an integrated way. Like, look, you're not abnormal. Look, this is a powerful thing. look, you're holding the seeds of humanity here, but you have to be very careful and hold yourself accountable for how you disperse these seeds, right? This is not a free for all. And how do you manage your sexuality? And how do you honor the woman or a male partner, whoever you're with? And how do you take care of your body in a way that doesn't make you feel ashamed, but also doesn't make you a problem in the world.

32:30Through all these interviews you did, did you come to a conclusion as to if one gender or sex is harder to parent than the other? I think that girls are, no, I don't have a, look, I'm a mother of a girl and I see my friends who are mothers of sons and I go, damn it, you have no problems, right? Because boys don't share. so they have hardly any issues on a day-to-day but then they will erupt then the boy will erupt and an erupted boy who's not harnessed can be a big problem now the girl is erupting every damn day like every day i'm having some issue with my daughter every day i'm doing something wrong every day i said the wrong word because girls are amazing i mean wow i listened to my daughter talk to me.

33:22And both sides of her brain are on. Like she's able to articulate the feelings and talk about them and process. Yes. Till the cows come home. I want to run away. Yes. But then my friends who are mothers of sons, they're like, I feel disconnected. I barely get a word answer. They don't talk to me. They don't want to be with me. And then when that son sends them like two heart emojis, the mothers are like, oh my goodness, I feel seen, right? But me as a mother of a daughter, I feel seen every day. I mean, she's there every day. She's connected every day. She's present every day. So on some days, I, you know, yearn for the stoicism of a boy.

34:06But other days, I'm so grateful to see how I must have been to my mother and how fascinating. And they both are fascinating. And I just, I love watching both boys and girls grow up and how beautiful and sensitive they both are. Yes. Boys are so sensitive and so tender, but then they haven't been allowed to feel that that is masculine as well. I find that the first time boys, and it's sort of in a good scenario, the first time boys are really sensitive and tender is in a relationship. It's the first time that they're able to sort of let their guard down. And that's been interesting for me as somebody dating men, you know, to watch happen.

34:50Yeah. Boys are very tender and they have this mask of, you know, compartmentalization or rigidity that can fool us, you know, but their brains are completely wired differently. You write that girls today are excelling on the outside while unraveling on the inside. Tell me what you're seeing. So girls have taken off. I mean, we women are on some other stratosphere. Look at you. You're 35. You're just at a pinnacle that when I was 35, it was hard to reach, you know. So your generation and younger have access now to coaching and life skills and red flags. I mean, I never looked at any red flags till I was like 45.

35:36Too late, right? But you all are being equipped with this psychological arsenal that has made you impervious and empowered. And you'll have language and you'll have the Me Too movement and you'll have laws that protect you in a way and you'll have a platform and a voice. So that's all amazing. But I think on the inside, it's also daunting because you all are also being given conflicting messages. You know, in many ways, you all are being told that to be a feminine woman, a mother, to love being in a relationship, to love taking care of children is now kind of like a second class citizen kind of job.

36:18And to be a career woman and to be, you know, financially secure is the way to be. And it's hard for you, you know, and you're feeling conflicted by lots of messages. You'll have to be healthy and vegan and optimized all before seven o 'clock. And you'll have to have a career and not be dependent on a man. But then if you're yearning to be a homemaker, then you're called a trad wife. And then, you know, so there's a lot of labeling and judging that I didn't have to face. I was excelling if I was just a little bit, you know, out of the norm. It was good enough. But now there's a lot of noise out there.

36:54So to be excelling, you'll have to be super something way more than I had to be. I just had to be a little bit more extraordinary and I could be excelling. But you guys, I feel, have a lot. I mean, your faces have to be perfect. Your makeup routine has to be amazing. It's a lot. So I think the pressure is from the inside now, not so much on the outside. I mean, why do you think our girls have the highest anxiety disorders recorded in modern history, at least in the last decade. You would think that there was more psychological competency, but there's equal psychological fragility. I liked reading about what you kind of call an Ozempic culture that we're living in, a productivity culture and optimization culture.

37:41I do feel that way. And you talk about this phrase, good enough. But what I think is so interesting is you are excellent in every single way. So you're not really wanting the good enough, right? And yet you're saying as humans, maybe we can just strive for good enough. So how do you wrestle with that in your own mind? Yeah, good question. It's one that I imagine you have to wrestle with, right? All competent women have to struggle with that. But I think just having that good enough default, right? Okay. To rein you in is the key. It's not perfecting the good enough, right? Like how good enough am I being good enough?

38:26I always have these internal reins, but yeah, I go way out, but then I'm like, I have something. You do two books. Two books. And now I'm like, okay, now whatever happens has to happen. Now I cannot go. so then I pull myself back. But I'm always doing this. So push-pull. Yeah, but I'll always shoot for the stars, but then I'm always going back to, but I'm good enough. How do you think a parent teaches their child that they're good enough? Yeah, yeah, it's really tricky. It's really tricky. But I don't want parents to listen to my answer and go, oh my God, I've effed up. You know, I don't want them to feel like they have to, when I say it's really tricky, meaning it's almost impossible to do, and it's a tightrope, right?

39:08So some days you're going to do it better than others. So how do you teach your child that it's good enough? I think in the early years, it's really important that you keep low expectations. See, parents start off with super high expectations because they're trying to shoot the child ahead of the curve. If I'm strict in the beginning and I'm really tough on my kid in the beginning, then I can relax later. And I believe it should be the opposite. The early years are where there is just exploration, safety, where the child feels that they are mighty if they, you know, put the beans back in the cup or they picked up the pasta.

39:49Because developmentally, they are capable of very little, like very small things. That's why they will have a meltdown if the toothpaste is not where they thought it should be. If the toothpaste is here, they cannot handle it. They're crashing out because their brains are so like pea-sized in a way. So they want to develop competency in their little world. So they want the toothpaste there. And they said, fried egg, mommy, not scrambled. And you're like, can you just freaking just eat the scrambled? But they're like, no, fried egg. Now, it sounds like they're so rigid and I'm going to raise a monster.

40:29But we have to understand in their little world, that is competency. That is authority. They don't know much besides fried egg and scrambled and toothpaste and yellow and blue. Right. Like competence leads to confidence. Competence leads to confidence. Interesting. But their competence is over very ridiculous things in our adult eyes. Okay. But you want to give them that. No, I want the monkey. I don't want the bear. Okay. Okay. Now, parents listening to this will think that this is laissez-faire or no boundaries. I'm not talking about not being able to say no to your child, but it's about giving them empowerment over their very small world in the beginning of their life.

41:09So now if you go the other way in pushing your child too much, teaching them 10 ,000 activities so that by the age of six, they are well-versed and multilingual, you think you've done a great job, but you don't understand. you've pushed too far, perhaps, you know, you should push just a little bit beyond. Because when you push too far, too early, there's too many moments of helplessness, too many moments of striving. And childhood is a place of rest and ease and confidence building. Like I'm the big fish in the small pond. But if you put your child into the big pond too many times, it's too overwhelming.

41:52So early years, you want competency, you want mightiness, you want, I am, wow, I'm the king of the world, the queen of the world. And then by nine, 10, you start pricking the bubbles. And then your child goes, oh, I'm so ordinary, but they can handle it. But they've had a foundation. And then they get into the real world and the bubble starts bursting and you start peeling back the layers of, this is the real world. You're not that special. You know, you're unique, but you're not that special. And you begin to allow that to sink in. And then you send them off into the real world. But the first years are where you get to let them feel like they're mighty.

42:31Like they're mighty.

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48:15You talk about girls living inside something called a perception prison. What is an example of that? Well, I think your generation, you know, grew up in that, being seen all the time. You know, when I was in my career, all the way to my late 40s, I never got on a Zoom, right? We didn't have Zoom till COVID hit, really, in the big way that we have. And you know now that you're on Zoom, you see every flaw, you see yourself too much, and then you begin to wonder how people are seeing you and now you have to dress up to go on the computer. So this lends itself to this feeling that you're constantly at any moment going to be photographed, videotaped, commented on.

49:02Somebody's going to say something about your looks and it's the world at large, right? People are happily commenting on how you look and how I look. No business to comment on us and we have no business reading their comments but now it's part of our psychology. Some person in Turkey telling me how my nose is looking today or why am I looking tired? What business do they have? And what business do I have caring about what they are saying? So it's this perception, you know, collapsing prison that just feels like we're being seen at all times and need to be presented to the world at all times, which is unhealthy.

49:41We should not look in the mirror. We should not be seeing ourselves. We should not be so self-obsessed. as we are. How do we combat that at home? Like when you're raising girls, what can you do in the house? Because you can't really control how culture works, right? So I think the mother and female role models, especially for our daughters, are very important to show up ordinary, to show up looking very much like how we looked in COVID, right? When no one was looking at us, we didn't wear a bra, we didn't comb our hair, We didn't brush our teeth. I mean, I'm not advocating for a slovenliness, but just be ordinary, right?

50:18Have most moments of your day where you're looking very average, right? And then your perked up, you know, stylized, curated look is reserved for, okay, this is the face I put on in the world once in a while. But your daughter needs to see you looking very average. You know, my daughter will tell me. That's not what I expected you to say. Yes. My daughter will tell me now that she's older. She's like, mom, I didn't realize what a poor sense of, you know, dress and fashion you have. I'm like, oh, good. And now, you know, I'm very poor sense. Oh, see, I don't agree. You always look great. No, I know.

50:54But this is because I'm showing up in the world. But at home. Yeah, I don't. I couldn't care less. That's funny. Right. So you want your daughter to see you confident. Okay. With a very poor sense of fashion. I underlined this part of your book and I still can't wrap my head around how I feel. So I'm so excited to ask you in person. You write that girls are being sold a lie, that hypersexualization is empowerment. So my first question is, what do you consider hypersexualization? So this is a huge trap. So hypersexualization is always prevalent in our culture towards women. Yes. It's the beginning of time.

51:32Yeah, it's not anybody's fault. It's the female is the one who the male tries to get. Okay, look at the rest of the animal kingdom. The male peacock tries to be the peacock with the best feathers. The male antler grows the antlers. They want mating opportunities. Yeah, since Cleopatra. Right. But back then and in the rest of the animal world, the female was the chooser. Now we have become the chosen and it's inverted. So we are the primary object of sexual desire for all of time eternal all across the animal kingdom. But we used to be the choosers and now we have become the chosen. So now we are always the sexualized object of desire.

52:21But we have lost our power. And we have now been sold a lie that if you, you know, you can dress how you like and you can, you know, walk around naked and that's power to you. Right? Yeah. Well, guess what? All the males on the beach are like, we love this. We love you to be more empowered. Go ahead. Show us more. And we are playing right into the male gaze. Now, I'm not saying not to dress how you like, but just understand that the dynamic is still staying the same. You are still being an object to the male. Now, you can choose to identify with that or not and all power to you if you don't. But don't be fooled to think that you are not playing to the male gaze.

53:07And you can see on Instagram why are women posing the way they do because they're doing it for likes. but here's where I get confused because I agree with you I spent my whole career trying to be taken seriously and that was in conflict with at all being like I would never wear a low cut shirt when I was doing news you know like ever but I see Gen Z girls and they really like Kim Kardashian for the most part because they feel like she's both things she's an and she wears bikinis and poses like a Playboy model would have in the past. And she's an attorney and helping people get out of prison. And they're like, as a woman, why can't I be both?

53:52Yeah, but the part in her that is the bikini model pop-up is definitely playing to the male gaze. I mean, let us not pretend she's playing to the female gaze. She wants to clearly establish herself as the queen bee, telling all the rest of us females that she's winning the competition. clearly, like clearly, like, do you see? And she is playing to the male gaze. So the question is why and how much and when is enough enough? And every woman and all power to her. You know, I think she's working it for herself. And if that's what she needs to feel good about herself, all power to her. However, she's also a role model for others.

54:36So she needs to, for whatever degree she wants to have a sense of accountability or responsibility, that's on her. I'm not here to tell anyone how to be a role model. But what we need to teach our daughters is how much and why do you need so much attention? Now, we are all playing the game. You played it when you wore your high heels. I played it when I put my makeup on today. So we are all playing it to be desired. Let's not pretend we're doing this. You know, women will lie and say or lie to themselves and say, no, I do this to feel good. I go, but in COVID, when no one was looking at you, you didn't do this to feel good.

55:11You were very happy not doing this. So let's not bullshit. Let's just say, I know when I get ready is I like to feel desired. I like it. I'm not doing this for myself. If I was doing this for myself, only for myself to look at myself, I don't do this at home. So I do this to get compliments, to be seen and to be in the game. Just be clear about it. It's no problem. It doesn't make you a lesser person. I'm very confidently saying I love getting a compliment. I love telling other women they're beautiful and they tell me I'm beautiful. What is wrong with that? We are doing it for that. Otherwise, you would not wear high heels.

55:49You'd wear flip flops, right? Well, I think a lot of young women would say, no, I'm dressing for the girls. I'm not even dressing for guys. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. But you're dressing for something. And the question is always why and how much? That's my eternal question to myself every day. Yeah. Now, why are you doing this? And then I have to justify it to myself. And many times it's, you know, something to do with vanity and my ego. And I go, okay, just know that you're doing it for that. You're willing to wear these ridiculous stilettos and possibly break a leg because you want to look a certain way.

56:23Okay, Shefali, go ahead. And how much? Okay, now how much is too much? And you have to create that boundary for yourself. No one can tell you what it is and there's no judgment. You know, be as naked as you want and be as conservative as you want. Neither are going to get you anything if you don't feel worthy from within. So don't be all dowdy and dressed up in a suit thinking you're like being taken seriously because that's not going to get you taken seriously either. Right. And don't be out there trying to get all this attention thinking it'll give you validation and worth because that's not going to get it.

56:56So what is going to get it is your own eternal, internal barometer of who it is you are. You get to play this life how you wish, but don't do it mindlessly. Do it as consciously of your vanity and your ego and the matrix and how you're being pulled in as possible. Yeah. Right? When I see a fabulous wrinkle cream, I get fooled and I buy it, you know, and then I'm a sucker. But I know what I'm doing, right? I'm not pretending that culture is doing it to me. there's no man out there telling me how to dress up. There's no woman out there telling me how to dress up. No one is telling Kim Kardashian how to be.

57:33She has chosen to do this for herself. So we have to own our co-creation, right? So an OnlyFans girl who is there for sexual content may think she's very empowered. Because she's earning how much ever she's earning. She is empowered financially, but let's not be fooled to think she's not part of the same old game of selling our bodies for money that we've done and all power to you, but it is the same game. I love that you brought that up because I've actually been thinking about that. A friend of mine said that she felt like OnlyFans was actually the transition in sex work because in the past there had been men who had been making money off these women and now women are making money off of themselves.

58:20But the platforms are owned by men who are making money off the women. Yeah, there's still a degradation. It's still capitalism in its old form. So just know what you're doing. It's about being conscious about the game we're playing. I thought it was so interesting when you wrote that if young girls can't use their voice to stand up to their parents, they won't be able to do it in the patriarchy. 100%. That was an unlock for me. So in what ways are you saying young girls should be exercising their voice at home and how can parents shepherd that? Is that by asking them questions and caring about their opinions?

58:59I think it's about parents being super conscious that they don't want to raise a good girl. Oh, I love that. They have to be conscious about it because the girls want to be good because they get validated for being good. We tell the girl, you're so sweet. What a good girl. And we have to watch that because that gets amplified by culture. And then the girl gets validated for being obedient and silent and subservient and compliant and a people pleaser and a conflict avoider. Very quickly, it catapults. So you at home want a badass, right? You want your daughter at three to go, I said fried eggs, right?

59:37Now it sounds bratty. And it is annoying because I raised that girl who was then became, you know, oh my God, really? but I knew why I was doing it because it needs to be exaggerated in the house because culture will dumb it down so fast that you want to amplify it and inflate it in the house and then at some point I was like oh my god I have raised a girl who's getting into fights with her uber driver now because the uber driver was rude to her so she was like I'm not going to stand for it and this was at 13 14 yeah and I get a she's like mom I got off the uber app I was disqualified I was like I'm raising somebody too strong now.

1:00:18But I realized there's no such thing because done consciously, of course, and done without entitlement, a girl, it's okay for her to go too far. Yeah. Because culture is going to slam her down versus keeping her safe. So she fits into culture, but then culture will slam her down. So you want to go too far with the girl because culture is designed to suffocate the girl's voice. Can you give me two or three examples of what that looks like in parenting? So it starts really young. Yes. When the child says, no, mommy, I want to put on my own boots. And they're taking 10, 15 minutes or no, I want to wear these clothes and they look like a clown.

1:01:00It starts there. OK, let's try. And of course, you give the choices, right? Of course, you buy the boots. Of course, you buy the clothes because parents always tell me, oh, then I'm just going to raise a brat. I go, how can you raise a brat when all the choices that the child will fight for are choices you give? If the child only knows between scrambled and fried eggs, then that's what they're going to fight. So you give the container, but within the container, they get to choose. So you do that very intentionally. And then when the child makes mistakes, right, when they like a friend who you think is a brat or a toxic friend, You allow them within the safety of your guidance to work it out, to flex and to figure out the limits of their expression.

1:01:50I want to go to boys now because I liked when you wrote about shame. You said it's a driving force in boyhood. And that really surprised me. I have been going to therapy for six or seven years. And I've recently been thinking about shame for the first time. And I thought that boyhood would be driven by anger or frustration or hyper energy. But you said shame. Why is that? Well, all the things you said, anger, aggression, sexuality, hyper energy, all of that is closed to boys. We don't allow them to be hyperactive, hyper mobile, hyper physical. We teach them to be like girls in school, to sit at circle time and to be good boys.

1:02:36And by the age of five and seven, most boys are now being diagnosed with ADHD. Now, is it environmental or is it genetic or is it social or what is it? Boys are not wired the same as girls, but we're shaming them for not being like girls and then telling them don't be like the asshole men that are out there. So boys are like, OK, can't be like the girls, can't be like the boys. Who should I be? So then they're retaliating. And that's where the manosphere comes in and is so attractive to boys because it's giving them a blueprint. Get the square jaw, get the big body, go to the gym and have, you know, 1600 grams of protein or whatever it is.

1:03:16And conquer the world and move to Miami, right? And drive a flashy car. No, I love Miami. But it's like it's that whole profile. and why are so many boys following it is because they don't have any blueprint for a conscious masculinity. I mean, you wrote that they're receiving two conflicting messages, be dominant and then apologize for being masculine. What does that whiplash produce? Yeah, it's a tremendous conflict and I detail this in the book. So if anyone wants to learn how to do this, I mean, I did it for the girls as well. I talked about seven pillars for a conscious masculinity. So So that whiplash of don't be like this and don't be like the girls and but talk about your feelings, but then don't be too vulnerable.

1:04:01I mean, like it's so messed up. It's an impossible mandate. It's an impossible mandate. And we know that it's partly our own internalized misogyny. Like we don't like being told that we are, we as women, too feminine. So now when we see a man being feminine, we put him down. But then if he's not attuned, empathic, articulate, emotionally literate, we put him down. So it's impossible for a man to know how he should be today. I see it. I'm dating, right? I'm single. And the conflict that you're describing is my main issue in finding a partner. Yeah. But you're looking for this perfect integration.

1:04:41Yes. And it doesn't exist. And it doesn't exist because there is polarity. At some stage, the way we were designed is to have polarity between male and female. Whether we like it or not, that's what attracts us, right? The male wants to feel like he can protect and be competent and provide. I mean, it sounds so horrifically traditional, but there is an element of that. I'm not saying all of it. And there's an element of our femininity that wants to be taken care of, that wants to receive, that wants to also caretake. These are our beautiful parts. All I'm saying is that we're losing these in the name of integration.

1:05:18And I am all for integration of masculine and feminine, but I'm also for polarity. Yeah. And there's times to have polarity and there's times to have integration. And the most beautiful relationships are those that allow for both. For both. Yeah. I realize the more I'm in my masculine, the more I attract a more feminine man. Of course. We do attract our opposite of whatever we're being in that moment. Yes. You're giving no room for another masculine energy to step in. Yeah. So if you want a masculine man, you're going to have to let go a little bit and be in the polarity. A little bit. Not all the time, but a little bit.

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1:12:01So who's worrying you more, our boys or our girls? Our boys, 100. Our men are worried. I'm worried for our men. Our men are suffering. All the men you're dating, they're not telling you the truth entirely because they're so ashamed. They don't feel safe. They're like, oh my goodness, she has it all together. She has her masculine and her feminine. She's figured it out. I haven't figured it out because no one fought for me. And because men don't talk that much, no one is talking. Right. But there is this male problem. I'm very worried about our men and our young men who are lonely, more suicidal than ever before.

1:12:35They're hidden in basements, on video consoles, in a fake virtual world, jacking off to porn, hoping to date an AI chatbot and marry her. Because it's safer to be that boy than to be out in the world today. And there's no friction if you're with. There's no friction. Yeah. That's the key. So if social media disappeared tomorrow, what percentage of today's parenting challenges would go away? Oh, my God. Look, I wrote The Conscious Parent in 2010. So obviously, we still had problems, but they are cataclysmic and astronomical. So yes, I would be all for it. Not so much because the kids are in trouble, because the kids hopefully are only being exposed a little bit later.

1:13:17The parents are not present. The parents are fighting in this competition and trying to create content and be out there and post everything. So they are showing a false reality to their children. They're showing their children that it's so important to be perceived and it's so important to be seen as something externally validated. And it's okay to live in a fake world. That's the greater problem. And in The Conscious Parent, you write that parents help children build their worth through presence. So when they're on their phones and they're not present, it's saying you're not worthy. Yes. Or if the mother is so consumed by how she looks and she's modeling that to the girl, because now the pressure to look so amazing and to have so much in your skincare routine and so much in your bedtime routine and everything is a routine.

1:14:06The girl begins to watch or the boy begins to see, wow, like it takes a lot to just exist. And then for the males to see that these men out there, you know, talking about hustle culture and making it and, you know, everything is about optimization. Well, then what is pure living and being? Yeah. And there's this ongoing theme in your book. You've mentioned it a few times. We've used the word patriarchy and misogyny. And I think those are such buzzy words right now. People sort of shy away from them. I try and lean in because it's just the truth. We're living under a patriarchy, right? Well, the patriarchy is not so much the problem.

1:14:49Patriarchy is like whoever's in charge. Okay. Yes. It's a patriarchy. It's the acute toxicity and the extremity of the patriarchy. That is the problem here, right? Let the men be in charge, but then the women are in charge of other things, right? And there's a balance and a give and take. The mothers could be in charge. The women can be in charge. Then Would we call it toxic? No, it's the toxicity part of it, which is fundamentally an extreme, extremely narcissistic, unempathic, disconnected, exploitative, capitalistic regime. That is the problem, the autocracy of it, the extremity of it, the capitalistic domination and the drive for, you know, this extreme wealth in the hands of a few, the oligarchic element of it.

1:15:41That is the problem. And you really share how it's showing up online. I know you mentioned we joked about Miami, but there's all these Instagram accounts that I see all the time where they're like, how much money do you make? And what's the most you've made in a year? And it does feel like so much is about money in a way that it didn't used to be. And you call it the digital patriarchy or digital misogyny. Yes. And that is the intrusive level of these extreme messages that come on your phone unbidden. See, that's the thing. We're not in charge of what we're seeing. It's curated for us. and I hope that as things become more fake, that we'll actually go back to the, you know, the analog way of living.

1:16:26I'm really hoping. Because I myself, I'm getting more and more turned off because what was my curated feed and I was so, you know, proud of my intellectual, you know, wisdom feed and news feed, it's all gone. I'm not in charge of my feed anymore. So I personally don't like to be exploited. I feel like I'm being influenced and taken advantage of. So I'm already turning away from my feed. It's not mine anymore. So I'm hoping that people listening will realize they're being taken advantage of. They are being led to the slaughterhouse. They are being led to the advertiser. They are being led, seduced constantly.

1:17:02And the moment you sit on a little wrinkle cream a bit too long, you're going to get 15 more. You are being brainwashed. And the more you see it, I can see it. you know I am looking for certain things and it doesn't come because it's not capitalistically driven so I am getting turned off and I hope more and more of us get turned off because we are being played I'm getting turned off too and I I've never really had an issue with my phone or like addiction to a screen and I'd say in the past two to three months I've thought you know I don't feel good when I'm on my phone anymore yeah I don't feel good at all we have to go on these detoxes to cleanse ourselves of this, you know, intrusive nature of these messages.

1:17:42We have to go on diets. So your daughter is 21 now? 23. 23. Yeah. Okay. So I think there's, and tell me if you think I'm right or wrong, but it seems to me, I love parenting experts and reading about parenting. I'm not a parent yet, but it seems to me that parenting advice shifts every decade or so. It is shifting every decade. Okay. So I feel that. And I think when you wrote The Conscious parent, it changed everything. People had a whole new vocabulary. And then in 2025, there was this Washington Post article, and it said, goodbye, gentle parenting, hello, fuck around and find out. Exactly. You know which article.

1:18:20Exactly. Exactly. So I think we went through this phase, and this was after the conscious parent, where it was gentle parenting. And now parents have had it. They're frustrated, they're triggered, which you talk about? Yes. What were we wrong about in gentle parenting that we're just pushing against now? Yeah. So conscious parenting is not gentle parenting. Yes. At all. Conscious parenting is being conscious of what you're bringing to the table of your awareness. And you don't have to be gentle. You can talk the way you talk. It's about being authentic. So I'm not a very gentle speaking person.

1:18:56I talk the way I talk, but I'm conscious of it. So gentle parenting to me felt a lovely attempt at, you know, modulating your voice and paying attention to your tone, but it felt performative to me. And it felt like you were so afraid of your child and afraid to make mistakes. Conscious parenting is all about make the freaking mistake, show your child you're human, be present, be brave, and be accountable. Yeah. General parenting was hide your authenticity and put on this show, right? So then, of course, there was a backlash, right? As the progressive movement went so progressive that we lost sense of like, okay, what is reality now?

1:19:39We're so out there, so woo-woo. You know, it's okay to be woo, but woo-woo, we got too much. Now we had a backlash of ultra-conservatism and, you know, we went ultra-right. The other way. And that's where we are right now, ultra-orthodox, ultra-right. And now we're like, fuck around and find out. And the poor child is like, I didn't do anything. Like, why are you angry with me? You decided to be a performer and tippy-toe around me. You didn't treat me like a normal human being. And now you're telling me to fuck around and find out why you're backlashing against me. So it's not the children. It's our own mental gymnastics because we're so unanchored.

1:20:18We're not in conscious parenting. Conscious parenting, you will never go wrong. I promise you, you will never go wrong. Because you're conscious about going wrong. So you're going to see it in real time. And there is never a time where it has not worked beautifully. It's one of the best books I've ever read. I think that book changed the world. So your daughter, Maya, is now 23. And she was 11 or 13 when that book came out. Yeah, somewhere around there. Somewhere around there. So what's one thing that you look at her now and think, wow, I was absolutely right about that in terms of parenting? so many things providing emotional safety staying present showing up every day letting her know that she's worthy so I did good there but I made lots of mistakes if you're willing to share my god my daughter has done a whole youtube like a whole interview with me where she didn't slam yes yes I'm not trying I don't need to slam you but yeah I'm curious if there's anything that you would have done differently oh my god and she will give you a litany like she won't stop I do it like apparently I still haven't learned so things like you know many times I don't freaking understand what the hell she's saying you know I'm like what are you saying like things are so simple in my head but they're so differently complex in her head so I short circuit her I'm impatient very you know superior in my righteousness you know she'll say oh you you just love playing Jesus and and I love it so I go yes I love playing Jesus.

1:21:53But it's not about getting it right. You know, I think, and I've told her this, I will make the same mistake, only I will catch it faster and be willing to cop to it faster. But if you're asking for a different mother, you have to go somewhere else. Like, just like I can't ask you to be a different wired daughter and you've stayed the same in your wiring. This is how I'm wired. You know, so this is it. Now, now together, let's figure out how we can not kill each other, right? But the wiring, and this is what I teach in conscious parenting. So I teach her how to be a conscious child to her parent, because the wiring is the essence.

1:22:31Each child comes with a temperament. You cannot really go too far. What I saw in my daughter at two, three, four, I still see the same wiring, just a little bit more modulated or just a little bit more anchored. But the wiring is the wiring. And that's what I teach parents. Recognize your child's essence early on and learn to be attuned with it, okay with it and celebrate it. The sooner you align, the sooner you're in flow with that person. So I was reading that working moms spend more time with their kids now than stay at home moms did in the 50s. And the Skims and Good American CEO, Emma Greed, made headlines for saying that she spends between 30 minutes and three hours a day with her kids and she calls herself a core memory mom.

1:23:17Yeah, that's a lot. You know, 30 to three hours a day, the child has gone to school. The child has come back. They've gone for an activity. They have good caregivers. And now you're between 30 to three hours and you're there and you're present. If she does that consistently and she's fully lit and fully connected and not projecting her shit onto the children because she's living a fulfilled life and she's really seeing them for who it is they are, that's not a bad average. It's about being present. It's about being there. It's about making sure your child feels seen and worthy of your attention.

1:23:54And then each parent plays it. You know, some days you don't even have to see your kid if you're busy, but then you make it up. There's no perfect equation. I think that's what Emma was trying to say, is that there's no equation here. You know, you don't have to be there, a lifeless block of flesh, if you're not really lit up. Yes. I mean, how much of good parenting nowadays is just putting down the phone? Yeah, exactly. And just being there with your kids. Yeah. I froze my eggs three years ago and I think about motherhood a lot. And one thing I hear from my friends who are mothers constantly is, well, what if I mess my kid up?

1:24:32So after everything that you've learned, what actually does mess a kid up? Well, you are going to mess your kid up. So if your goal is to not mess your kid up, I suggest you don't become a parent, right? Because that's an insane goal. What do you mean mess your kid up? What does that mean? If your kid goes to therapy and blames you for everything, does that mean you messed your kid up? If your kid is depressed, that means you messed your kid up. No, there's no, if your kid has gender issues, does that mean it was your fault? See, we think we're so important that we can actually really mess this up.

1:25:04Now, having said that, my work is all about trying to consciously not mess things up, right? So it's a both and. So what are some things to mess your kid up? The most important thing to mess your kid up is just being an asshole, just being disconnected, just being narcissistic and having things your way and not having this incredible connection and this dialogue with your child. Making your child who you want them to be and judging them for all the ways they're not, I think is the surefire way to mess things up. Barring that, it's hard to mess your kid up. If you're not judgmental, if you're safe, if you're present, you're not an alcoholic, you're not a drug addict that you're lost to your senses.

1:25:46You're there, you're trying. It's actually quite hard. Now, that doesn't mean your kid won't get a divorce or your kid won't put on weight or have 20 ,000 pimples. It's not about looking a certain way, right? It's about feeling connected to you. It's very hard for your kid to abandon you. So you've spent your career helping parents understand children. But if your work has taught us anything, I think it's that children are often the ones trying to teach us. And I sort of want to end here. If a 16-year-old boy and a 16-year-old girl were sitting across from you right now instead of me, and you had 60 seconds, what would you want them to know before they became adults?

1:26:27that their parents did their best and they provided a springboard. And that's all parents are supposed to do, a hopefully healthy springboard. But it's up to you, the child now, to take that story that has been your story till now, own it for its tragedies, its traumas, and its triumphs. But now you have to write your own story. And the more you keep looking back and bringing your parents along with you through blame or through for support, actually the more encumbered you will be. They are supposed to be left behind now. And as Khalil Gibran said, you are the arrow upon which you get to create your life.

1:27:10You get to shoot as far as you need to. And you have to take accountability for that story. That was really, really beautiful. I can't believe you came up with that on the top of your head. I did. Okay, I have some rapid fire questions for you. The number one way to conscious parent. to shut up and listen. What parenting trend do you hope dies in the next decade? All trends except conscious parenting. What parenting trend gives you hope? Conscious parenting. The one sentence that you'd ban every parent from saying to a child. I told you so. Good one. It's my favorite. The pop culture moment, so a show, a song, an influencer that you think is most quietly shaping children right now?

1:27:57You know, from the Kardashians to Andrew Tate, you know, and I don't mean to put the Kardashians in a negative way, but they are so influential. They are in so many positive ways. They've changed how brown women are looked at, how women's bodies are looked at. I so love so much. And I also feel so bad that they've been given the status of being the rule makers, right? It's a tremendous responsibility. They're mostly positive. And then the Andrew Tates of this world who are misogynistic and just taking women down. Yeah. And men down. What's the most important life skill that you can teach a child?

1:28:39Self-trust. The number one way to teach resilience. Self-trust, taking risks, making mistakes, falling down, getting rejected. What's the best way for a mom to spend a Friday night with her teenage daughter? Oh, goodness. My daughter would say the best thing you can do, mom, is eat pizza and ice cream with me because I'm so careful about my food. But just to let go, be young again, and be a silly girl because that's what our daughters want from us, that they want a silly girl, you know. What age is safe to get a phone? in my ideal world, I would say 17, 16, 17. How about the right age to join social media?

1:29:22Oh, not before 17, 18. If you could raise your children in any decade, which one would you pick? I like, I would say the decade before mine. So I could, because by the, by the time my daughter turned 13, 14, I felt social media coming. So I would say I would want another 10 years before. Which is the worst social media for kids, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, or Snapchat? I really, anything where their finger can scroll is bad. And the algorithm sends you what it is and you don't choose your own movie, you know, on your VHS and put it in the, when you're not choosing your movie and you can scroll to the next thing is the worst thing.

1:30:06Should parenting classes be mandatory? Yes. And a license and supervision and a qualifying exam and yes, check-ins and you renew your license. Aside from your books, is there a book that you've read that changed your life, something you think everybody should read? Oh my goodness, yes. I mean, any books by Eckhart, you know, The Power of Now, A New Earth, The Untethered Soul by Michael Springer, The Presence Process by Michael Brown, Pema Chodron's books. I mean, they're all Eastern spirituality books, which talk about the power of presence. So those are my guiding light when I've lost myself in the noise of culture.

1:30:46What's something that every woman should try once? I had all sorts of things go through my head. I know. There's lots of things we should try. We should try to lean into our femininity and we should try to lean into our masculinity. Like do both in like some big way. Like go all out this way and then go all out. Monday through Wednesday we go all into like how can I be the most feminine? And I think keeping on practicing the boundaries and the assertiveness and the masculine skills and then the receiving and the caregiving and the caretaking. I think for myself, that's what I aspire to do both.

1:31:30And when I get too caught up in one, I'm in trouble. Where is this? Okay, I'm going to hand you the card game. Oh, I love it. Sort of like tarot. You pick whichever one calls to you. Wow. Look at that. Question everything. Tap into the power of questions. Get curious. your curiosity will lead you to whatever you're here for. I love that. It's all about leaning in, no? Yes. Okay, let's lean in and pick one. Okay, I'm ready. That's the instruction card. Oh, it is. I love the blue. I want to instruct away. Okay, can I do this? Yes, yeah, of course. Okay. One thing you are trying to or need to let go of.

1:32:11I am trying to let go of certainty, needing control and certainty. It's hard. Very hard. I've been doing it for decades. Yeah. It's a constant practice. It's my constant practice. Because I always want certainty. I want to know. Yeah. But there is no knowing. That's the only certainty. The unknown is the known. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Shefali, thank you. Oh, thank you so much.

1:32:42Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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