The Math Behind Modern Womanhood: With Corinne Low

26:14Hero Bread bakes with heart-healthy olive oil and delivers the soft, fluffy, flavorful experience you love. Breakfast burritos, schmear-loaded bagels, real mac and cheese. Hero Bread bakes loaves, bagels, and tortillas that don't taste or feel like cardboard. Noodles that don't fall apart in hearty sauces. Plus, limited edition small batch bakes like the 2 grams net carb Hero Croissant or 1 gram net carb Hero Cheddar Biscuit. Handmade in a Sonoma-based French bakery. Shop now on Hero.co. Use code IHEART for 10 % off. That's Hero.co. Per serving, not a low-calorie food. Some products contain allulose.

26:47See nutrition info on Hero.co for sodium and sugar content. When it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University, we find ways to remove barriers, not build them. like a new laptop if you're eligible, and enroll in select online or on-campus programs. That means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. Online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu. you.

27:27So there was an alarming statistic in your book about women who are breadwinners. And you say that the imbalance is not naturally curing. We have to do something about it. But will you share what that statistic is? Yes. So I think this is when we met at this event, right? Eve Rodsky has all of this work on the imbalance and how much more women are doing. And Eve was like, I can say that like, this is imbalance, but like, there's always going to be somebody who's going to say, well, like it makes sense because he earns more money. So she's doing more with the kids or she's doing more at home. Right.

28:00And the key thing with my research is that I show that even when women are the breadwinner, they still do dramatically more, dramatically more. And so I can look at couples and their division of earnings. And I can go from, he earns 80 % of the household income. And that's when you're going to be like, the mansplainer is going to be like, it makes sense that she's doing more. He's earning 80 % of the household income. He's doing about this much housework. And then I can go, okay, he earns 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20%. Literally the amount of housework he does at home doesn't change. He does the same amount of housework no matter how much he's earning, what percent of the household income he's earning.

28:40So in the book, you say that women who are the primary breadwinners do almost twice as much cooking and cleaning as their male spouses. And I've seen other studies about how even if men are laid off, they don't do the dishes, they don't pick up more housework generally. So there's a huge imbalance. Yes. So often if men are laid off, we see them do more childcare. It might be easier to kind of into that role of dad, but then it's the housework. It's the routine, unglamorous work of keeping a household, cooking and cleaning that we see women still hold. Yeah. You talk about women's time constraints throughout the book too, and you say that they're just fundamentally different than men's.

29:21There's no amount of leaning in that can fix this. I do want to talk to you about lean in after. But tell me about some of the time constraints and the economic differences between being a man and being a woman? Yeah, so I charted this. This is part of the research that I did for the book was looking at time use across the life cycle. And I literally made a graph that was women's minutes per day minus men's minutes per day, okay? So how much more time are women spending than men on four categories, housework, childcare, work, and leisure? And this graph shows that over the life cycle, women are spending way more time on housework and childcare.

29:59And it peaks during this period I call the squeeze when your kids are young, and they're spending way less time on work and leisure. So then if you picture a woman who's an executive, that female breadwinner, right? If you have a man in her position, that man probably has a stay-at-home wife. And if he doesn't, he has somebody whose career is a second priority, and she's doing the majority of the household work. If you have a woman who's a female executive or a high-powered career, her husband's career is probably equally important or treated with equal importance in the household and guaranteed she is doing more at home.

30:33And that creates a real imbalance in how we can invest our time at work because on the margins, right? Are you going to say yes to the work trip? Are you going to say yes to that extra project that you know has a lot of nights and weekends? Are you going to say yes to that client dinner when you are carrying so much more of that load at home? And that's why we see such a huge wage gap open up between men and women over their careers. And it opens up even for the highest performing women. So another study that I point to that's not my study, but one of the authors on it is Nobel Prize winner Claudia Golden, shows that by 12 years after earning their MBAs, the female 90th percentile of earnings is the same level as the men's mean.

31:15So the 90th percentile of women, which is the top 10 % of women, is earning the same as the average man, the mean for men. And that top 10 % of women are the women who are leaning in. And that shows you that individual ambition is not going to solve this for us, that these are really structural constraints. I love the way you say individual ambition will not solve this because there are always people who feel as if I can outwork this issue or I'm different or people just don't work hard enough. There's all these excuses that we all make and it truly is a structural problem. I think it's hurting people more than we think.

31:58When I would think about equal pay, at one point I was making $60 ,000 less than my male co-host at a morning show. And I was so upset, but I knew it going in and I was like, I want this job. And this job is worth more than$60 ,000 to me. I'll do it for a year and then we'll see how it goes. And it's not just the 60 grand, it compounds over time. And so we're losing out over millions of dollars in a lifetime, which is millions of dollars, not just that you can add to your household or to make your life easier, but also to communities, right? Like to philanthropy, to it's just. Which women actually do.

32:38I mean, you just spoke about like pivotal ventures and I'm thinking about all these amazing female philanthropists and it's like money being in women's hands filters down differently than money being in men's hands. And then to that other point, we know there's discrimination and so there's a wage gap. And so now imagine, right, that your male co-host goes home and it's like, well, whose career should be the priority? And it's his because he's earning a lot. You go home, right? And there's this discrimination, disparity between you and your male co-host. And now it's like, well, whose career should we invest in more?

33:06And it's like, well, you're making less. So maybe, you know, the extra hour of time should really go towards, you know, this hypothetical partner's career, right? And I think that's some of the times the conversation that's happening in households is that like, she's already hitting a glass ceiling because of discrimination at work. And then she comes home and she can't get that support at home because his career is taking off because those same forces aren't holding him back. So Jada Pinkett Smith was on the podcast after she wrote her book Worthy. And one of the most interesting aspects I thought about the book, because it's really interesting to watch it play out on a large scale, is that she had this career that she was pursuing.

33:44And because they were married and had kids, Will Smith was becoming an A-list actor and his career was blowing up. And so she took a backseat. And I don't think she ever got over that resentment. Like that was one of my takeaways from that interview. And so similar to what you shared about your own life, that resentment starts to build and build. I was looking up all the studies say 25 % to 56 % of divorces stem from chores. And they don't, it's a big gap because they can't totally point to one thing or another. But I'm wondering if domestic labor truly was shared, what you think would change in partnership?

34:24Well, I think you've got to, listening to Jada's story, you have to link that chore gap, which sounds so trivial, to a gap in self-actualization. Because that's what she's really pointing to, right? Is that he got to become who he wanted to become, right? And she didn't. Like, she was, like, stopped short. She was held back in that process of self-actualization. And ultimately, your marriage cannot be happy if both people are not self-actualized, right? And that's where you get 20 years down the line and love starts to fade no matter how much attraction you started with. Because if somebody doesn't feel like this partnership supports them in becoming the person that they want to be, then ultimately it is really hard to sustain that love and affection to that person who's actually kind of become the headwind or the force that's holding you back.

35:19Wow. I got chills when you said that. She didn't get to become. That is exactly it. and everybody just wants to become who they are meant to be in the world. Wow. So you're a mom of two and you're still right in the thick of things. You have two young kids and you've mentioned the squeeze a few times, but will you sort of define it for everybody? Because it's a big aspect. Yeah. So I joke that the research question that started the book is, why am I so tired all the time? Because that pumping in the abstract bathroom, that embodies the squeeze. It's where you are trying to make investments in your home life and your career at the same time.

35:58And so you just feel like there's not enough of you to go around. And if you don't have generational wealth or you didn't, you know, marry a hedge funder or whatever, right? Often you feel a financial squeeze too, because you're not at the point in your career where you can just say, well, like, forget it. We'll just like hire three nannies, or we'll just like, you know, have the housekeeper do it, or I'm going to snap my fingers and the garden is going to be landscaped. So I see that in the data that basically, while time on childcare and housework is at its peak, income is still growing. Your financial investments in your career haven't paid off yet.

36:32And so later on, you're going to have more time and you're going to have more money. But right now you're in this crunch. And knowing that I think can help women sort of prepare. If you're in the earlier side, right, of things and you're not in the squeeze yet and you want to have kids, which if you don't, you know, there's, there might be other things that bring you to that crunch period and career investments can be like that anyway. But if you want to have kids, right, thinking about what can I do now that I'm in my twenties, I'm time rich to prepare for that. And one of the things I was just thinking, because I give a lot of relationship advice in the book.

37:04And one thing is really choosing that partner who is going to support you in becoming who you want to be. And so not just the partner who laughs at your jokes and has good taste in movies right now, right? But the partner who says like, yes, if one of the kids is sick, I will be the one to stay home because I never want you to feel like you didn't get to achieve what you wanted to achieve, right? It's not about like lip service to like, oh, of course women should have careers, right? It's about what are you willing to do? And I tell people, there's a list of questions in the book, but I'll give you one of them because it will start a conversation is if I got a job offer in another city that was going to increase my salary by half, right?

37:47Give me a 50 % raise, but you would have to look for new work. How would we decide whether to move? So like if there really is a trade-off because there is, and in the data, we see that couples move for men's jobs and they don't move for women's jobs, right? How did I end up on that train commuting from New York to Philadelphia, you, right? So have that conversation and choose the partner who is going to make investments in you and also make investments in yourself. So one of the things I talk about is thinking about your career or your job as a money machine. It's a way to convert your time into money.

38:26And you want to spend as much of your effort and time as you can upgrading your money machine before you're in the squeeze. Because once you're in the squeeze, time is that much more costly, right? So what can you do to upgrade your money machine? And what can you do to make financially prudent decisions? And that's where I hate the Instagram culture of, you know, chasing what the influencers have, because I think it encourages us to put money into places that ultimately are not going to pay off in terms of our happiness. And for a lot of young women, that's getting into a lot of consumer debt to kind of chase that lifestyle.

39:00And then when they enter the squeeze, now you don't have some of those financial resources because you're paying a credit card debt. You're paying Klarna and Afterpay, which is just consumer debt, right? And so now things that you could have done to make your life easier, like pay for a meal service or pay for somebody to help clean the house, that money has been eaten up by these earlier financial decisions and purchases that you made. So it's like thinking about your life across the life cycle and knowing what the data shows kind of being strategic at every turn. I'm smiling as you're sharing these because I'm single and dating and I personally come up against so much of what you talk about in the book when I'm dating.

39:42There's one story that I'm going to tell you very quickly and tell everyone listening. So as a kid, I felt like my time was worth so much. Like I've been obsessed with time my whole life. And my dad would joke with me like, Danielle, your time is literally worth nothing, you know, and he wasn't being rude. But as a kid, he was like, yeah, you're not working. It's not worth anything. And as I got older, he started being like, OK, your time's starting to be worth something. OK, it's worth something now. But I always felt like it was worth something. So fast forward, I'm dating somebody and I have probably the most important interview I've ever had.

40:19And I'm in another state and the interview meant a lot to me. There was a lot on the line. I had a gift for the person that I was interviewing. And the guy I was dating, he had like beautiful tastes, great aesthetics. And I said, can you please go grab a gift box and a card for this? I need this hour to study. And he was like, I don't know what you'll like. I don't want to get the wrong thing. Why don't you just come with me? And I was like, no, anything you pick is fine. It's not about the tip. I need this hour. And he's going back and forth with me. And I got so frustrated. I just said, okay, let's get in the car.

40:54And I got the gift box and I didn't have the hour. And I was mad the whole day and the whole night. And I needed that hour. Anyways, after the interview, he came by the hotel I was at and said, do you want to like go to dinner? And I was like, not really. I'm like so angry. And he was like, let's go to dinner and talk about it. So ultimately, he basically says to me, he feels that his time is worth more than mine. And that's what it came down to. Once I asked a million questions, right? It didn't go there right away. Why wouldn't you do this for me? Yeah. Yes. And that's when he lost me. I just could never get over that.

41:32Well, I love your story. I love your story because that is actually like, why did my marriage end? Because that was what my husband was telling me in all of the choices he was making, that even though I was making more money, his time was still worth more than mine, right? Yes. And I think men are endowed with this sense that their time is important. And kid you had it right because as an economist, your time is worth something whether you're making money with it or not, because your time can be used to make what economists call utility, which is like joy, happiness, fulfillment, right? So however you spend your time produces value.

42:06It's not just spending it in the labor market, right? And if you don't have that career you want to have yet, then spending that hour investing and trying to get it, even though you're not getting paid for it, right? That's valuable too. So you are a hundred percent right that your time always had value. And I think you've really put your finger exactly on the thing that I think is holding so many relationships back is that it is an unspoken assumption that his time is always worth more, no matter what. And I think it's really covert in a lot of relationships because men can talk a big game. They can say things that are very kind.

42:45Of course, I don't think that, but take all the words away. What are their actions saying? And I love how you say in the book that marriage really hasn't caught up to modern life. The real issue for women is time. It's not about ambition. I guess to link it back to what we talked about with Emma, because I think it's a good personification of some of these issues, is she's saying that you can fix it as being an individual, but it's not. It's the system, right? Like, do you think that when you run a big company the way she does, that like she can change the system? Or is she just saying to all of us, like, I'm not saying that the game is right.

43:25This is just how the game is played. Well, I would be interested to hear if she is trying to fix that system for the company that she runs, right? Because there are some companies that I worked with where you see that like, oh, oh, a woman is in charge and they're really trying to make this add up. You mentioned like pivotal ventures. And, you know, when I went out there for that talk, I brought my wife and my one-year-old daughter with me because it was my one-year-old's first birthday. And they were like, well, you obviously can't leave her behind, right? That was clearly part of the values, right?

43:54That they were exhibiting in their work. And, you know, I think that I don't know that those are the values that Emma is exhibiting. I mean, and who knows if there's a dissonance between public and personal, right? But in her public persona, it's women need to be trying harder, you know? And so is that what the message is to employees? And sometimes, you know, you see it where women who had to fight an unfair system to get ahead, then sometimes they are not allies of the women who come after them because they're just like, well, I had to make all these sacrifices so you should too. And it's like, well, no, none of us should actually.

44:32I know. And then I get confused because I'm like, well, why do we expect women to change the strata if we're not expecting it from men? But really, I just want it from everyone. I want the system to change. That's right. That's right. And if you are in a position of somewhat of power and privilege and you have a microphone, which she does, right, she has an enormous microphone, then you can use that to change because there are other people who are less powerful than you. So yes, even though you as a woman, you know, there's ways in which men are still having power over you as a woman of color, right?

45:01There's ways in which, you know, she is marginalized. There's still, right now, you have a microphone and you can use that to try to break down that system.

45:18And now another appliance triumph from our friends at Grand Appliance. With two dogs, every wash load came out covered in fur. I went into Grand Appliance looking for a fix. And they recommended the Maytag top load with PetPro hair removal system. They had it in stock and installed it days later. And you know what? It really works. Lint rollers are a thing of my past now. Great recommendations from the appliance experts. Shop grandappliance.com. Grandappliance.com. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age.

45:58Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age? That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.

46:22Who doesn't love warm, carby comfort? Satisfying sandwiches, loaded bagels, rich mac and cheese. Crape-worthy and smart, Hero Bread's loaves, bagels, and noodles have just 0-5 gram snack carbs, 0 gram sugar, and up to 19 grams of protein and 32 grams of fiber per serving. Hero Bread bakes with heart-healthy olive oil and delivers a soft, fluffy, flavorful experience you love. Shop now on Hero.co. Use code IHEART for 10 % off. That's Hero.co. Per serving, not a low-calorie food. Some products contain allulose. See nutrition info on Hero.co for sodium and sugar content. When it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think.

46:57At Rasmussen University, we find ways to remove barriers, not build them, like a new laptop if you're eligible, and enroll in select online or on-campus programs. That means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. Online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu.

47:29So when you say in the book to optimize for joy and for meaning, how do we do that while realistically optimizing for achievement and finance as well? Because you are still a very ambitious person. How have you personally thought about it all? Well, I think the key is, and this is where I'll get into this more kind of technical definition of like, how do you measure when I said like my values versus Emma Green's values. Like how do you measure that, right? So economists have this idea of your utility function, which is everything that brings you jollies. It's everything that the end of your life you would give points to.

48:05You would say, yes, that was a life well lived. You would look back on and say, I'm glad that I made that decision. And does everybody have different utility function? Everybody has a different utility function. And so the key lesson, if people take one thing from my work and from my book is to not think of achievement or financial success as ends in themselves. To instead think of those things as vehicles to increase your utility, whatever you get utility from. So let's take an example where you could be super, super successful, right? But you would only get three hours a day with your kids, with doing what you love, with doing hobbies, with reading a book, whatever it is, right?

48:44But you would be like amazingly financially successful. I would be like, for what, right? Like what is all that money good for if I can't afford my own time spent the way that I choose to spend it, right? So I reframe, and I think it's different for women because we have been trained to think, to be ambitious and to say like, oh, don't hold yourself back and dream big and all of that. And yes, sure. But I think always ask for what. I reframe a career as like I said, a vehicle to turn your time into money ultimately to buy happiness, right? And if it's not buying me happiness, then it's not working.

49:21So how is whatever my financial goal is, whatever my career goal is, how is it supporting what I ultimately want? So for you, interviewing for this job that you were interviewing, for example, right? If you get that, it becomes, well, oh, I'm going to have a better conversion of my time into money because I could put the same amount of time in, get more money back, And then I would be able to, you know, instead of having this side gig, I'd be able to like pursue this other thing I'm interested in or, you know, work on starting the family that I want to start. Right. So it's like, how does that success, how does meeting that milestone, how does it actually help me craft the life that I want to craft?

49:58And it's staying laser focused on that instead of just on success for success sake. Yeah. You make this sharp point about how women used to be the release valve. basically like putting the husband through school while working as secretaries. And you mentioned that your own grandmother did exactly that. And now women are making these big early career investments in themselves. Nobody's releasing the valve for them. That's part of the squeeze, right? And so if marriage is a deal where the data says I'll carry the worst end and kids are the thing that triggers that squeeze, then like a clear eyed woman who actually runs the numbers like you did might rationally choose neither.

50:43And I think that's sort of what we're seeing right now in the data, right? There's a lot of women in their thirties and forties who are not married, not dating, and actually not even looking to. That's like what I'm seeing all over my TikTok. Yes. And I think we have to be careful to like say what is like a true, what is a true trend versus there's like a social media phenomenon or whatever. But I do think TikTok is not your economic studies. Yes. But I think that we are seeing like more delayed marriage and partnership. We're also seeing a decline in teen births, which is part of what's driving the fertility decline.

51:18But I think ultimately there are some women who are saying this deal isn't adding up for me. And I think it's more likely to be women. So if you are a super ambitious woman, but you're still going to actually marry somebody who's like more financially successful than you, that could still add up because like, for example, he could become like somebody who finances whatever your dream is that could support your career. Right. Right. Or hire the help that's necessary. Right. To allow you to have time. And I think that's the Emma Greed lifestyle, right? A little bit. So I think the women who are finding it's not adding up is the women who are really financially successful themselves.

51:54And then they're meeting men who like, aren't like stratospherically successful, right? They're just kind of doing okay. But they expect that to be enough because all their lives they've been told all you have to bring to the table is a paycheck. And these men are just doing the bare minimum. They will not go get the goddamn gift box, right, that you've asked them to get because they've always been told like you're just all you have to do is provide for the family. That's it. And these women are saying, I don't need a paycheck from you. I have my own paycheck. I need a real full partner, right?

52:23And so I think they're saying like, look, this isn't enough. This deal is not working for me anymore. And so my work is not about discouraging people from getting married or having a family. I mean, I personally, I love being a parent and that's such an important part of my utility function. And I can't imagine life without having the kids that I have, including, you know, marrying the wrong person first, but having an amazing child who I couldn't regret a single moment of that. But I do think if men are lonely, which like we keep hearing about how they are, right? The way to overcome that is for men to figure out like, how do I give women what they need, right?

53:02How do I show up as more of a full partner? And so I think the work is not incumbent upon women to solve the fertility crisis. It's incumbent upon men to figure out like, where are they falling short? Whoa, I've not heard that. I don't know if I call it an argument or a thought or perspective, but I've not heard that. And I think I'm very aligned with it. how can they become full partners the way women have had to become full people in every sense of the word every domain yeah it's been required of us and we always sort of step up to the plate yeah yeah i was curious about your thoughts on marriage because like it could be sort of taken that a ambitious woman should go find a traditional 1950s housewife i.e a man who's willing to do all that labor.

53:52But you're saying that's actually not the answer either. Like we are looking for full partners and how can we raise boys to become full partners? Yeah. And I think like if you are, like if you're an ambitious woman and you find a guy who is ambitious about being a father and ambitious about taking care of the household, like that could be an amazing match. And there, I think there is sometimes, you know, I talk about the evolutionary impulses in the book that sometimes lead us astray. And I think one of those is that like our genes are trained to like look for the provider, the hunter who's going to slay the woolly mammoth for us or whatever.

54:26And that might be maladaptive in this world where like what we need is somebody who's going to like want to put together Ikea furniture or like, you know, want to like, you know, pack a toddler lunchbox. So I think that women should be more expansive in like what traits they're looking for And remember that like you're not just shopping for sexy because sexy is going to wear off when you're cleaning his toothpaste off the bathroom sink. Like he's not going to be sexy in the same way anymore. And what's going to be sexy is somebody lightening your load so that you can be a full person. Right. So that you can become.

55:05Yes. Yeah. This is it's a little bit of a departure, but I was so fascinated by this one study that you ran that I have to ask you about dating apps. So every year that a woman ages from 30 to 40, you found that she has to earn$7 ,000 more to be rated equally desirable on dating apps. Can you explain what's beneath that study? So I have a more positive take on it, which is what's underneath this study is something that I call reproductive capital. And I wanted to show that reproductive capital was valuable and is something that women have and men don't have. What do I mean by that? Because you might be like, well, it takes a man and a woman to make a baby.

55:42Think about your single girlfriends and think about how real of a possibility it is for them that if they don't find the male partner they're looking for, they could have a baby on their own, right? And after I got divorced and I was dating women but hadn't found like a life partner, I was very much thinking about just having the second baby that I wanted on my own. Your male friends do not have that same option because to have a baby on their own would require several hundred thousand dollars because you have to replace this incredibly valuable commodity, reproductive capital. It's somebody who's going to, you know, spend their eggs, right?

56:13So you have to pay for egg donation, which is a, you know, very like long process. It's not like sperm donation. Sperm donation takes 20 minutes, right? It's a much, you know, longer process. It's like a surgery. You have to find someone who would be a surrogate to carry that child for nine months, right? So women contribute so much more reproductively. And so this was part of my dissertation that I wanted to prove this hypothesis I had that reproductive capital was valuable. And so, of course, if we're going to convince people that something's valuable, I have to convince people that men value it.

56:43So I ran this study where I said, well, you know, reproductive capital is declining between 30 and 40 because it's becoming harder to have kids. So I randomized ages on dating profiles and showed that when randomly, you know, it's the same picture, the same profile, but when her age is higher, that she's getting rated lower. And I put that in monetary terms, you know, in terms of how much money more she would have to earn. Because by the way, also men do value women's income. I think it's a little bit of a myth that men don't want women to earn money. They do want women to earn money. They just also want them to do everything around the house.

57:15So that allowed me to then say like reproductive capital is valuable. And I could link it specifically to fertility because if the man already had kids from a previous relationship, he didn't show this gradient with age. He didn't respond to the randomly assigned kids with all the men who were kind of looking to have kids. Hold on. I want to make sure that I'm understanding this. So men who already have kids had no bias against women and their age. It was just about reproduction for them. Yeah. And because remember, the photo is being held constant. So you may say there's other things that normally change with age, but here I'm holding everything constant, right?

57:49Interesting. There wasn't a relationship if you weren't interested in having kids. But the reason I'll put the positive spin is because there's the maddening piece of it. I'm like, how women are devalued as they age? And as somebody, I'm 41, right? I am feeling all of these things. But the positive spin on it is that you are endowed. Women are endowed with this incredibly valuable reproductive capital. And this is why queens historically, even though they didn't work, they didn't do anything around the house, but they still were treated like royalty, just like kings because they were contributing their reproductive capital.

58:19And so you have this. And if you're going to make a deal with somebody to share your reproductive capital with him, the terms of that deal better be very favorable to you. Okay, so speaking of deal, this is the one part of our conversation where I want to sort of give you a to-be-sure argument because as I was reading, I was thinking to myself, wow, maybe I'm complicit in my own oppression. So I'm going to push back and please push back on me. So you say in the book for all of us to ask ourselves when we're looking at our lives and our marriages to look at them as a deal, a contract. And you write, ask yourself, am I getting a good return?

59:00A job, a relationship, kids, am I getting a good deal? Now, I think that a lot of people who read that or listen to this conversation are going to say, well, you know, love is not really the error term. Like, love is the whole point. What if I'm optimizing for love? Like, what if you, Corinne Lowe, have the equation upside down. What if that's the variable that actually matters? What do you say to that? Well, yes, I'm not as cynical as I sound. I absolutely think that love matters. And I like describe my experience of wearing this analytical hat and trying to like date post-divorce and being like, this time I'm going to do it right.

59:40This time I'm going to have my checklist and I'm going to make sure that this person meets. And then I like met somebody who's amazing, who's a good friend now who like hit every point on the checklist and like I was not attracted to them, right? And it's like, oh, darn it. Like, you know, that's actually not how this works, right? So what I say is like attraction and love is a necessary condition. You need it to even start the conversation. Can we have a relationship? But it's not a sufficient condition. It's not the be all and end all, right? And I think the mistake that we get is by believing these cultural scripts that love should be enough.

1:00:18And I'm sure when Jada met Will Smith that she loved him, right? And later on in that marriage, as you said, there was something else there. There was resentment, right? When I met my ex-husband, I did love him and I followed like my heart. I followed love, right? And we loved each other so much and we loved each other and I loved him so much until the point where I was getting none of my needs met in the relationship. And then that little by little ate away at that love until there was nothing left. So I think if you want to sustain the love that you start out with, right, and you go into every relationship with love, of course, you should go in with love.

1:00:57But if you want to sustain it, you need more there, right? It has to be that both people's needs are getting met. It has to be that both people are getting a good deal, that both people are getting that chance to self-actualize. And I think when you put it in those terms of it's being about self-actualization, it's not just about the financial contract, right? And it's about becoming your true self. Of course, a relationship should support that. And if somebody loves you and you love them and you have a great sex life, but they won't get you the gift box so that you can spend an hour studying, right?

1:01:28It's going to turn off your attraction to them. And that's what we said. It was gone then, right? Oh my God. I did not want to have sex with him. Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. And it turns off like a light switch. It's crazy. Yes. And so that love and attraction is linked to actually getting our needs met. And so I want you to shop for the partner who, yes, you feel that insane chemistry with, but you also are able to sustain that chemistry because that partner is your biggest fan and your biggest cheerleader and wanted you to ace that interview more than you even wanted it. Oh, thank you for putting it into those terms.

1:02:04I think that's really a beautiful way of looking at it. And also your idea of thinking about what our own values are is so helpful because if somebody's value is like, I want to be a stay at home parent and I want to be the person like holding down the fort, then you're not saying don't do that. If that's how you are self-actualizing, amazing. But if you are going into this relationship, wanting other things, you need a partner that's going to help facilitate that. Yeah, support you where you are. And that's why this idea of like finding your own utility function. And when you find your own utility function, it's actually going to cure that jealousy that we started with this idea of wanting somebody else's life, because you're going to look at somebody else's life and you're going to say, I could have more of that.

1:02:47But that's not my utility function, I would have to give up this other thing that I want, right? I could be more successful, I could be thinner, I could be richer, but I would have to focus on that to the exclusion of other things that I value. and I am who I am. So when you really tap into your utility function, you will not feel that constant need to want to be someone else.

1:03:16And now another appliance triumph from our friends at Grand Appliance. With two dogs, every wash load came out covered in fur. I went into Grand Appliance looking for a fix and they recommended the Maytag Top Load with PetPro Hair Removal System. They had it in stock and installed it days later. And you know what? It really works. Lint rollers are a thing of my past now. Great recommendations from the appliance experts. Shop GrandAppliance.com. GrandAppliance.com. Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin.

1:03:55Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skincare simple, and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types, and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth, and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's Full Regiment, which contains all five of her best-selling products, including the amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next-generation serum has the power of Melon Leaf stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles.

1:04:28With thousands of glowing five-star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just$49.95. That includes our introductory five-piece system, free gifts, free shipping, and a 60-day money-back guarantee. All of that available at MeaningfulBeauty.com. Who doesn't love warm, carby comfort? Satisfying sandwiches, loaded bagels, rich mac and cheese. Crape-worthy and smart, Hero Bread's loaves, bagels, and noodles have just 0-5 gram snack carbs, zero gram sugar, and up to 19 grams of protein and 32 grams of fiber per serving. Hero Bread bakes with heart-healthy olive oil and delivers a soft, fluffy, flavorful experience you love.

1:05:07Shop now on Hero.co. Use code IHEART for 10 % off. That's Hero.co. Per serving, not a low-calorie food. Some products contain allulose. See nutrition info on Hero.co for sodium and sugar content. When it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University, we find ways to remove barriers, not build them. Like a new laptop if you're eligible and enroll in select online or on-campus programs. That means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. Online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states.

1:05:42Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu. you.

1:05:53I know you shared such a great question earlier about like, would my partner move? If there's somebody listening right now, we have listeners who are single, who are married, who are career oriented, who are stay at home parents. It runs the gamut. Is there a question that you think every woman should be asking herself right now? Hmm. I love that question. I think the how am I investing my time question of recognizing that your time is extremely valuable. Your time is your scarcest asset. And so how much are you investing and giving away for other people for what serves their utility function?

1:06:29Your boss wants to make more money. You know, your kids, if you have kids, are always going to want more of you. Your partner is going to want this and that. Your friends are going to want this. Your community is going to have these needs? How much are you investing your time in everything that everybody else needs versus in what you hold most dear? And when I talked about your time being intrinsically valuable, that's a reframe I want everybody to make that it's like, if you say like, okay, I know what my utility function is, but how do I get more of it? Right? Everybody can get more utility right now.

1:06:59And there's one thing that you can do, write down the two or three things that bring you the most joy, that you feel the most at peace when you do, that you feel the most like yourself when you do. And then do those things, do them more, put them on your calendar, carve them out, block them out and recognize that that is a valuable use of your time. That's not laziness. That's not like, oh, I didn't feel like being productive. That's you being extremely productive, making utility with your time, which ultimately is what we're here on earth to do. Tell me if you think this is true. I think what partners or like what coincides with that is being willing to let other things fall by the wayside.

1:07:39So like, I want more time to work out. I may not have like the perfect host gift for everywhere I go or the, like, I may not get birthday gifts for my friends. You know, like, what am I willing to sort of release? When I say block it out on your calendar, it's to acknowledge this idea that whatever will fill the available space. And what we do as women is we often let ourselves claim the scraps, right? So it's the crumbs in the bottom of the cookie bag instead of that first big bite of the cookie, you know, the crusty edge, right? We get the crumbs that are left over. And so what I'm saying is give yourself that first big bite for the thing that you value the most and let everything else claim the crumbs.

1:08:17And it will all get done. Like the things that are truly important, the things that are must-dos and must get done this week, they will get done. And some other things like that email might go unanswered or that, you know, perfect hostess gift might not get bought and it might be a bottle of wine, you know, quickly on the way instead. That's re-gifted. I might re-gift champagne over and over again. Yes. It just is cycling between other people's houses, right? And that is okay. Like with me and my friends, we joke that like no one has bought a new gift bag, you know, in like years. It's just like the same gift bag.

1:08:47Totally. And that is going to be okay. hey, that's going to be enough because you invested your time in what was most valuable. Yes. Wow. So well said. Okay. I'm going to ask you some rapid fire questions because I don't want to be a drain on your time, Corinne. What's the most overrated piece of advice ever given to working women? Oh my gosh. So many of them, but this idea that you have to act like a man to get ahead. So you've got to like negotiate harder, be more aggressive. There's no evidence to back that up. I have studies showing that women are better negotiators than men. Oh my God, love that.

1:09:21Okay. One thing you tell single you that married you had to learn the hard way? That the extent of gender roles acting on you and your spouse is going to surprise you. And there are so many defaults in marriage, in parenthood that you have to swim upstream against. And so you need to prepare for that now by choosing a partner and by negotiating the terms of the deal with that partner before those defaults kind of sweep you away and they're tied. Finish this sentence. Having it all actually means? Having it almost, which is the version that works for you. Whatever you value most, having that and letting the rest be messy and imperfect because that's life and this isn't Instagram.

1:10:08This is real life. And only in real life can you actually taste that peach. Can you actually hug that child? Can you actually smell that meadow? And let's not miss that. The wonderful experience of living our full, messy, complicated lives, chasing an aesthetic that was never real to begin with. You know, one of the things I learned about Girlboss is that a big part of it was aesthetic and it's sort of coming up again in a new way. Not to blame Emma Greed. I think she's a symptom of it, but. Yes, I totally agree. There's this new aesthetic. It's very beige. And it's polarized because right now it's like we're torn between these two impossible realities of like Emma Green on one hand and then like Ballerina Farm on the other.

1:10:49And we're like twisting ourselves into a pretzel trying to be both. And it's just like, no, like just delete Instagram off your phone for a couple of weeks and start over. So you mentioned just a minute ago about putting certain things on your calendar. What's something, what's a swap that you made? So it's more of just the commitment because I don't feel like the trade-offs are not that real because the trade-off is really like you have less time for email, the house is a little bit less clean, or maybe you have less time to scroll your phone at the end of the day because you put something you valued first.

1:11:22But it's like being committed to even when it feels hard and you're like, how am I going to make time for yoga? Or right now for me and my wife, we're trying to figure out how to get time with each other with two very busy careers and two kids. So it's like really that commitment, that practice of being like, this is non-negotiable. This time has to be preserved. Yeah. What's something that every woman should try once? I said going on a date with a woman. Just try it. Just find out. Because, you know, there's just, who knows who you're attracted to? And again, there's so many defaults, right? So it's not that I'm encouraging and I'm not saying that secretly everybody is, you know, gay or everybody could be a lesbian.

1:11:58I don't think that everybody's necessarily flexible. but I do think that we shouldn't just let the default drive our decisions. We should explore. I agree. You know, Ashlyn Harris basically said the same thing to me on the pod. She was like, everyone needs to kiss a woman once. Tell me about a book you read that changed your life, something that everybody should read. Okay. So first of all, I love fiction. And so if you look at what's on my nightstand, it's always going to be a fiction book. And there's so many authors that I love because I feel like fiction is always about identifying truths within ourselves.

1:12:26But if I'm going to be really honest and really nerdy answering this question, I would say it was like principles of microeconomics. Because when I was in college, I started taking econ and it became this framework that I use to understand the world. And so this idea of utility function, it's like this econ 101, like way of solving problems and understanding, like, is the consumer going to like buy less tomatoes when like the price of tomatoes goes up, right? But it became, to me, this really amazing metaphor for seeking what we most value in life, that we are maximizing utility. And so, you know, a little bit of economics, I feel like, and if people are interested in that, I, if you follow my sub stack, I feel like I try to do that as like teach people a little bit about basic economics, because I think it is such a life changing way to view the world.

1:13:09Yeah, it really is. I was a political science major and every professor I had said, if something confuses you in poli sci, follow the money. So that's right. Right. Okay. Question everything. Tell me when to stop. Stop. Okay. What's one thing you are trying to or need to let go of? That need for things to be perfect and for things to be done right now because it's so hard, right? I think so many women listening probably relate. It's like you're so driven in like your career life and you always have your checklist. And then like, you just want everything to be done, everything to be perfect. It's like you want your house to look amazing all the time.

1:13:46And then the clutter is constantly like reemerging. You know, I want my flowers to already be planted in the backyard now that it's like 90 degrees, right? And the reality is that like, life is messy, and you're not going to really get more joy out of those things being done right now. And it's not worth the trade off of going to the park or going for a walk. So I am constantly trying to let go of needing things to be perfect, done, complete, neat, all of that. Corinne, you know, usually I could end an interview by saying thank you for your time, but it means something different in this one. So truly thank you for your time and good advice.

1:14:23I love that it's rooted in economics, but it really does feel like advice. Thank you so much, Danielle. And baby Danielle had it right. Your time is incredibly valuable every minute. And I hope you find somebody who values it as much as you do. Thank you. That's such a beautiful wish. I'm going to hold that.

1:14:43Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

1:15:16And now another appliance triumph from our friends at Grand Appliance. I want to eat healthier, but get frustrated when produce spoils before I can eat it. So I went to Grand Appliance looking for a fridge that would help. They recommended a Frigidaire Gallery French door with crispers that block dry air and excess moisture to extend the life of fresh food. And wow, it really works. No more wasted food in my house. expert appliance recommendations for the win shop grand appliance.com paramount plus is now the home of all your bet favorites what yes with all new episodes of tyler perry's divorce sisters you've always liked a little drama plus a whole new world of movies like gladiator 2 now i will control an empire original series like the shy just make sure we protect each other and live sports like ufc welcome to the history books new home same family.

1:16:11Your BET favorites are now on Paramount+. Subscribe now. This episode is brought to you by Bobcat. They started the compact equipment industry through grit, determination, and a whole lot of think we can't do that? Watch us. They set standards, broke records, empowered people to build bigger and higher, to dig deeper, to make the impossible possible. We've all been there with doubters telling us what we can't do. Who cares what they think? We don't need their permission or forgiveness. We just get things done. So go ahead and doubt me. Judge me. Challenge me. But when the time comes, watch me.

1:16:51Bobcat. Here's the truth. You could literally be adored by everyone and then come home and still get completely ignored by your own cat. It's classic cat behavior. But new Shiba Premium Puree is a lickable treat that changes all that. They're protein-rich, made with bone broth, and have the smooth, creamy texture cats go crazy for, especially when it's hand-fed. Yeah, it's more than a treat. It's a fast pass to favorite human status. So feed your cat Sheba and go from totally ignored to truly adored in just 12 days, guaranteed, or your money back. Learn more at Sheba.com. This is an iHeart Podcast.

1:17:30Guaranteed human.