The Real Definition of Rich (And How to Get There) With Vivian Tu 

14:08Danielle:Okay. Well, we're going to be well-endowed today. Okay. Let's do it. Okay. What is the sexiest thing about money to you?

14:13Vivian Tu:Having a lot of money means you don't have to think about it. You can think about literally anything else. And sexy. I think that's power, baby. Power sexy.

14:21Danielle:How do you make it sexy for other people? Talk dirty to me. will talk dirty to me, but with your bank account.

14:26Vivian Tu:Okay. So I would say start with the basics and actually work your way up in the same way. You don't immediately get in there and say, take off your clothes. You got to set the scene. You got to light some candles. You got to make it nice. Okay. And so what I would say is like, start your money conversations early and often. So maybe on a first date asking something like, if I gave you a hundred thousand dollars tomorrow, what would you do with it for two weeks to plan your dream vacation? It's a good one, right? It's a great one because it's not too invasive. It's not invasive. Everybody thinks it's a fun question, but it tells you a lot of how they value money.

15:02Vivian Tu:You can also ask simple questions. We're sitting in LA right now having this conversation. I feel like in major metros, the running gag across all of your friends is that everybody's rent is too high. So when I actually go to a housewarming or I go to someone's apartment for the first time, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so nice. Do you mind me asking, how much do you pay? And for some reason, that money question is actually very much on the table. People are not weird about that question at all. Really? Not in New York, at least. Oh, see, I'm like, ah, ah, ah. Really? Yes. Really? Is that bad?

15:34Vivian Tu:No. I'm just curious why. I don't know. It feels very personal. No. Okay. But like, if I asked you that and I said something like, hey, Danielle, I love this apartment. I've been looking for something just like it. Do you mind me asking what you pay? I'm curious if there are any other units available in the building.

15:51Danielle:Okay. So if you're looking for units, then I'm like, yeah, I'll tell you. And, you know, connect. Like help me. Help me negotiate so that I can get what I want. But it depends how close we are. If you're my friend. Yeah, of course. You're not having these conversations with strangers. I've had like hair and makeup people come to my apartment and ask me that. And I'm like, excuse me.

16:06Vivian Tu:I don't think that's appropriate because you don't have that relationship. Okay. I have hair and makeup people that I've worked with for years. If they ask me, I would tell them. Right. But if it's someone that I've just met today, certainly not. You don't have money conversations with everybody. You have them with the people you trust, who you already have a background with. And I think those are the things that actually bring you together as friends. Okay, what's the condom equivalent of financial protection? A prenup. Do not get married. Period. Without a prenup because guess what? Even if you don't draft one with an attorney, you get one and the government gets to write it.

16:40Danielle:What do you think of a postnup? Postnups are great. Listen. So like if someone listening is married and is like, we didn't do this. Yeah. Is it too late? You can do it now? No, you can still get a post-nup.

16:49Vivian Tu:Listen, I think the conversation's a little trickier for sure. But I think if your partner's understanding, if they love you, if they want the best for you and for them, you have to. And it's worthwhile to do. It's worthwhile to do because in certain states, there are so many crazy weird rules. And maybe you and your significant other are not comfortable with those rules. Why would you let the state government dictate how you operate in your relationship? I don't want that. Like, I don't think it's their decision to make. It's mine. What's the plan B of personal finance? Like after you've already made a bad decision and then need to like fix it.

17:21Vivian Tu:Okay. I would say probably like debt consolidation. Okay. What is that? So right now, nearly 50 % of people in this country have credit card debt. Okay. And credit card debt, admittedly, is one of the scariest, fastest growing, and most problematic types of debt because the interest rates are so high. They can be anywhere between 20 to 30 % APR, meaning 20 to 30 % interest every single year. And that means if you borrow$1 ,000 and you can't pay it off right away, that grows decently quickly. Yeah, that's like 200 bucks a month that you're paying. No, 200 bucks a year. A year? At 20%, 300 bucks if it's for a full year.

18:00Vivian Tu:But the thing that I encourage people to do is consolidate that debt. So if you have a bunch of credit card debt or high interest rate debt, something above 7%, what you can do is actually get a balance transfer card. So if you are sure you have cleaned up your act, you are ready to make amends, you're ready to do things right, you can actually get another credit card. And this balance transfer card, you pay a fee, you transfer the balance, but then for the first 12 to 18 months, you actually get charged 0 % interest. Meaning every dollar you're paying towards that debt is actually wiping what you borrowed versus interest.

18:35Vivian Tu:Alternatively, if you don't think you can get it done in 12 to 18 months, you could get a personal loan from a financial institution. You go to a bank, you go to a credit union and you say, hey, I'd like to get a personal loan. They check your credit. They will offer you one if your credit's decent. And then what you can do is actually use that lump sum of money to pay down all of that credit card debt. And then you just pay back the bank. But those interest rates can be closer to seven to 15%. So you're saving a bunch of money on interest and it gets you out of a pretty pickle.

19:01Danielle:I didn't know about that. Very cool. Yeah. Okay. So if X, X, X, triple X equals protection, what is the lube of money? I would say building infrastructure. So your book, read this. A little bit. But what I'm really saying

19:13Vivian Tu:is like, I don't think you nor I nor anybody listening to this actually has the willpower to be financially successful. You cannot rely on willpower. It's interesting. Think about the number of times that you were like, yeah, I'm going to eat right today. And you eat like a bird for breakfast, you eat a super healthy salad for lunch. And then by dinnertime, you're like elbow deep in like mac and cheese. I don't have the willpower to make things happen. And I don't think most people do actually. What I think you do have the power to do is build a system, build infrastructure that takes all the thought out of it.

19:44Vivian Tu:So maybe it's setting up your direct deposit so that it automatically goes partially into a checking account, partially into a savings account, partially into an investment account. Then you don't have to think about it. Maybe it's, oh, there are automatic transfers from my general checking account into a sinking fund for the vacation I want to take later this year. Maybe it's even setting a standing date with your partner every single month to go over your financial goals, to go over the things that you need to be discussing. So make sure that you're on the same page. When you build the infrastructure, it's a lot easier to make smart decisions than it is to try and willpower your way through it.

20:21Danielle:That's well said.

20:23Vivian Tu:Food is a good sort of analogy there too. Going to the gym. I mean, I wouldn't be a gym girly, but it never happened until I started packing my gym bag the night before, until I joined a gym that was 15 minutes from my apartment that I could walk to. And also instead of just working out on my own, I started taking classes and the classes, they have a$35 cancel fee and I'm way too cheap to pay a cancel fee. So when it's like the day of, and I'm like, shoot, it's within the 12 hours I can't cancel. I have to go. Hold yourself accountable.

20:57Danielle:Okay, you've got a lot going on and choosing the right probiotic might not be at the top of your to-do list. I get it. So let's make things simple. Garden of Life is the number one women's probiotic brand for a reason. It's specifically designed for women to support the immune system, vaginal health, and overall women's health. You can feel good knowing that this is the brand so many women trust for their gut health. Garden of Life transforms 16 diverse probiotic strains and 50 billion CFU to support digestive health and a flourishing gut flora. And if you're worried whether Garden of Life Women's Once Daily Probiotic is the real deal, don't, okay?

21:37Danielle:They are certified non-GMO and doctor formulated for women's unique needs. To put it simply, this is an easy way to prioritize your gut health. Garden of Life, formulas for feeling alive, Available on Amazon. Disclaimer, number one based on Circona 52-week multi-outlet unit sales ending 11-30-25. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. From GEICO Subconscious News, I'm Tammy Racing Thoughts broadcasting from your brain.

22:10Vivian Tu:Tonight's top worry. If something happens to your apartment and you need to, like, stay in a hotel and pay for it, that would be crazy, right? Art Palpitations has more.

22:19Danielle:That would be crazy, Tammy, but you got surprisingly affordable renter's insurance through Geico, so it could be covered, giving you peace of mind.

22:26Vivian Tu:Aw, I love a story that ends well.

22:29Danielle:Next up, love stories. Are they all they're cracked up to be? It feels good to worry less. It feels good to Geico. This is the biggest night in podcasting. The countdown is on to our 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards. Live from South by Southwest, March 16th, we'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative, talented creators in the industry. It's truly a who's who of the podcasting world. Creativity, knowledge, and passion will all be on full display. And the winner of the iHeart Podcast Award is... See all the nominees now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards.

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24:26Vivian Tu:What is the financial equivalent of a safe word? I think the financial equivalent is really just having conversations. with your spouse, with your friends. We don't know what the boundaries are until we test them. And we don't know when is enough unless we're actually discussing that. Something that really frustrates me is that nearly half of all couples don't actually talk about money until they're already engaged. Imagine you and I get engaged. And then you find out, I've got$25 ,000 of credit card debt. Then you find out, oh, but she has a really large inheritance coming in. But because of that, Her family's weird about money and they've been suing each other for generations.

25:05Vivian Tu:Like, do you want to get involved in that? Do you know? You need to be having these conversations much earlier on.

25:11Danielle:So many of my friends. It's not when they're engaged, but they move in. And that's when they find out all this stuff. You have to get financially naked long before you move in together. Long before. Because it puts you in such a pickle. Yeah, because now you have stuff with them. You got to move out. You got to get movers.

25:28Vivian Tu:It's a whole headache.

25:28Danielle:My last one is what's the orgasm gap of personal finance? where people think they're doing it right, but they're really not satisfied? Ooh, that's a really good one.

25:37Vivian Tu:Okay. I think the biggest orgasm gap for personal finance is people who think they're investing, but they're not. Okay. So this is very confusing for many people. So I'll break it down very simply. Imagine this. You grab your purse. You have cash inside your purse. You go to the grocery store. You take a hot lap around the grocery store. You're looking at stuff. You're looking at, you know, whatever. and then you go home and then you open up your fridge and you're like where's my food girl you didn't buy any you just walked around that is what happens to so many people who think they're investing they will open up a Roth IRA they will open up an IRA they will open up even like the 401k with their company then they will put this money into that account and they're like I'm done no baby you didn't buy any investments you just put cash in the bag that is your purse you just actually have to then go take that cash in that account and go purchase things.

26:33Vivian Tu:Whether it be index funds, whether it be target date retirement funds if it's a retirement account, whether it be sector funds for sectors you're interested in, whether it's international ETFs or mutual funds that track international indices. But you actually have to buy stuff. When you go to the grocery store you have to then go buy turkey from the deli. You have to go buy eggs, you have to go buy milk, you have to go buy bread. That was me, I didn't realize it. I had somebody DM me and they said, I am so embarrassed and thank you for letting me know. And she told me, she was like, I went to the University of Chicago where you went to school, where I went to school, which is by the way, an elite university.

27:10Vivian Tu:That's known for its economic program. And she said, she was like, my money has been sitting in cash for the past eight years. Wow. And I wondered why my investing wasn't working. She's like, your video literally made me go and check and it wasn't invested. that's so great that you helped someone yeah it feels really cool it feels amazing but i wish they taught us this stuff in school like i wish personal finance education was taught k through 12 because i don't necessarily need to use the pythagorean theorem every single day of my life but it really would have been nice to know how to like file a tax return it really would have been nice to know how to balance a checkbook it would have been really nice to know how to look at a P &L statement, but I didn't have those skills.

27:55Danielle:I used to think, okay, let me meet a man who has all these skills so that I don't have to deal with it. Not anymore. Certainly not. You got me. Not only do I have you, but also even if I met a man with those skills now, I want to know. You like really cannot leave it up to somebody. And so many of my friends still do. Can I tell you the scariest message I ever got? Yeah.

28:18Vivian Tu:People think that when I'm talking about women needing to understand money, I'm thinking of a worst case scenario. They're like, well, Vivian's thinking of the women who get left by their evil husband and like marry a younger, hotter, whatever. Like that isn't even what's happening. Sure. There are some cases of divorce. Your husband leaves you. It's like, you know, pretty sad, but I get so many DMS that are like, hello, like my name is this. I'm 65 years old. Me and my husband were married for 40 wonderful years. He recently passed. I don't even know the login to our bank account. There was no abuse in the relationship.

28:49Vivian Tu:They had a perfectly happy marriage. They had kids that were wonderful. A happily ever after story. And you can still end up in an incredibly vulnerable position.

28:58Danielle:I don't want that for anybody. What do you say to people that are like, you know what? Money is just like, I'm not that interested in it. Yeah. And it'll all be fine.

29:07Vivian Tu:Okay. You interested in nice shoes? You interested in traveling? You interested in hobbies? You know what everything costs? Money. I am so sorry, but it's never been about the money itself. Money is a means to an end, but you know what money buys you? Money buys you freedom, time. Money buys you options. Money buys you choices. Money lets you leave a crappy job where your boss doesn't respect you, a crappy relationship where your partner may be mistreating you. It allows you to leave a crappy situation if you don't feel comfortable and safe where you're living. Money gives you the power to make the decisions to live your best life.

29:41Vivian Tu:And if you don't have it, you don't have those options. so you don't have to be focused about the money, but you better be focused about your life.

29:48Danielle:There was one point in my life, I've never shared this. Tell me the secret, I love the secret. Well, it's not even that big, but there was one point that I was struggling financially so badly that I needed a root canal and I went to the dentist and it was$2 ,500 and I was like, I have to stay in pain. I cannot afford this root canal. And I was crying in my car. My dad was a dentist, okay? He's retired. So I was like, I can't even believe that I can't afford something for my health. Like this is brutal. It changed my whole life. I never wanted to be in that position again. But like, I hear what you're saying in terms of options and nice shoes, but like, it's also stuff you don't think about.

30:25Danielle:Like your apartment floods, you need a root canal, like all the SOS stuff.

30:29Vivian Tu:And it's so funny because I have two stories of like a moment that was my turning point moment, but also a happy story, which is one time when I was in like end of middle school, early high school, I went to the mall and me and my girlfriend, we bought these ripped jeans from like Abercrombie and Fitch. They were so expensive. They weren't even that expensive. They were like$35. I came home and at the time it was roughly 08, 09. So my parents were in a very tough financial position and I had the receipt for the jeans in the bag and my mom found it and she started World War III. And she was like, you have no idea the value of a dollar.

31:04Vivian Tu:You are so irresponsible, blah, blah, blah, blah. all I could think to say was well my friend got a pair too and she said to me well her dad's a lawyer your family is not millionaires we can't afford these and I ran up to my room I slammed the door I felt so unworthy I felt so vulnerable and sad that like because my family wasn't you know well off that I didn't deserve these jeans that I wanted so badly and I made a decision then and there I was like I'm going to be rich I'm gonna be so rich no one is ever going to tell me that I can't buy ripped jeans ever again. You know, it was never about the jeans, but I started to build healthier financial habits as an adult.

31:44Vivian Tu:And it was the day of my 25th birthday and I'd woken up from a nap. I didn't want to get too drunk at the bar too fast. So I was like, I'm going to make myself a little sandwich. And I had this crusty baguette. I take this bread knife and I see a little piece of my finger fall onto the counter. Oh my God. All I can. And by the way, my nail polish at the time was black gel. So it's just a little piece of like black gel on like a little like flesh colored piece of like, you know, it's weird. And I'm looking down at this and my finger obviously starts profusely bleeding. All I can think to say at the time, my boyfriend, my now husband, I'm like, I think I need to go to the emergency room.

32:18Vivian Tu:And he's like, oh no, takes me to the emergency room. Ends up being the worst birthday of my life. Literally worst birthday party ever. Shout out Mount Sinai Hospital. To add insult to injury, it ended up being like a$16 ,000 bill. And even with insurance, it was like$1 ,300,$1 ,300. And And I was so grateful that I had an emergency fund that I could pay that debt off. Because like, that's a lot of money. Especially back then. Like my rent every single month was like$1 ,600. So like imagine one full rent payment extra that I had to come up with. Look at you telling me what your rent was. Because I share these details with my close friends.

32:53Vivian Tu:It's true. And her millions of followers. But that's cool. But you know, like I just think like there's the story of when I had to go without. And when I got in trouble for wanting something and I couldn't afford it. And then there was a story of when I could. And it was a much more satisfying feeling to know that like, even though it was a complete pain to pay that for something that I didn't want to do, I had it and it was comforting.

33:13Danielle:One of the chapters I love is about de-influencing, speaking of. And you're like, we need to de-influence ourselves. We need to de-influence the people in our lives. Consumerism is a trap. Why did you add that? because I have so many people who DM me and wake up in their 30s, 40s and 50s.

33:32Vivian Tu:And they're like, I feel like I've done everything right. And I still don't have the life that I wanted. And it's such a bummer. They ended up chasing a career that they didn't actually like because they got a little taste of that lifestyle inflation. And they were like, I wanted a nicer car and a nicer apartment and a nicer whatever. And then they bought a bunch of stuff and they look into their closet and they're looking at tens of thousands of dollars of stuff, But maybe they still can't get a random Thursday afternoon off to go see their kid play peewee baseball or, you know, whatever, peewee soccer.

34:00Vivian Tu:Yeah. And people are so focused on buying stuff that we're not realizing what the money is actually for. And I just think that there is a level of rampant consumerism right now that's making all of us unhappy.

34:12Danielle:Well, you give everybody these questions to ask yourselves before you buy. You know, I love the question aspect. Will you share what they are? There's three main ones.

34:19Vivian Tu:I don't want to give too much away, but my favorite one is before you buy something, you ask yourself, do I want this or do I want other people to know that I have it? I really liked that question. Why is that the one that you shared? Because so much of my early 20s was buying stuff because I wanted other people to know I had it. And I wanted the cool girls to like me. I wanted people to think I was rich and I was going broke, trying to look rich, going broke, broke. I think it speaks to two different types of purchases. one that you'll frankly rarely use and probably regret and one that you derive deep joy out of the first bag that i bought myself was a black saffiano leather prada bag it was blood sweat and tear money from my big girl job it was a milestone i felt literally untouchable holding that and it was the highest high that i'd ever felt making a purchase the bag after that and And the one after that, and the one after that, nothing.

35:14Vivian Tu:You get 15 minutes of joy and then you're like, oh shoot, now what? I just wanted people to know that I could afford all of these different types of bags. I wanted people to know that I had the shoes with the red bottoms, hilariously I'm wearing them now. I wanted people to know that like I could afford that little hat with a special logo on it because it was cool. And I never ended up really valuing those things. But something that I do value is the thousands of dollars that I've sunk into my sleep. So I have a special mattress that has a special grid that's really helpful because I'm a stomach sleeper.

35:45Vivian Tu:I know, very shameful. I smush my face all night. I have all silk sheets. I have eczema, pretty severe, that I'm on an injectable medication for it. So sleeping on silk sheets is actually incredibly helpful because otherwise, in the past, even really high quality cotton sheets, I'll be scratching my skin all night. Noise machine, blackout curtains. I want all of it. Certainly not something to really be bragging about. It's not really sexy to be like, look at my special bed because my back hurts. Like, that's lame, right? No one's bragging about that. I don't know. I think it's cool. You and I are different because we're like nerds in that way.

36:17Vivian Tu:But like, I don't need to tell people how amazing it is for me to feel the benefit. I don't need to tell people about the special orthopedic shoes that I bought to feel the difference.

36:28Danielle:What about people that have an obsession with getting packages delivered?

36:32Vivian Tu:What do you mean?

36:33Danielle:I think there are a lot of people that like the feeling of deliveries and packages coming to their house.

36:39Vivian Tu:Why? It's so obnoxious. You have to open the package. I'm also like not really good with knives, as we've discussed. Like opening the box, I'm getting a paper coat on my hand, but then I have to dispose of the box. I have to break down the box. I have to make sure all the little shrapnel is cleaned up. Like, yes, getting packages is like fun, but will that actually bring you joy in the long term? Or would you rather have some fewer packages and be able to go out to dinner with a spouse or a friend on a Friday night and be able to spend two hours with them? Will you feel more rejuvenated with that versus that red light mask that you're not using?

37:13Danielle:Well, the why of it all is interesting to me. And you kind of touch on this in your book. You talk about financial trauma. And I'm wondering if you think, and especially because you've had this experience as a kid with that gene story. Do you think there's any way to not carry that over into your adult life? or is that what we're working out in our 20s?

37:32Vivian Tu:I think that's what we're working out. I don't think there's a way for you to just be like, I'm cured. Like that doesn't work. Whatever financial habits your parents taught you, good or bad, you probably carry with you. And in the same way of every other aspect of your life, there are some things that your parents gave you that are amazing, that are great traits, qualities. And there are other things that like, maybe we can all afford to unlearn. My parents were incredibly frugal. There's this saying in Chinese, My family's from Shanghai, so it's in Shanghainese, but it's directly translates to money needs to be used on the knife's edge or like the edge of the blade.

38:09Vivian Tu:Meaning you should only really be spending in necessary situations on like really important stuff because my parents were so frugal. And it has led to like a little bit of a complex in me now. I'm in a much different financial position. I'm in a financial position that my parents have never been in. I am very, very lucky, very privileged with my money. I will still compare three different websites to see if I can find the cheapest pair of the jeans. And then maybe I will get a discount code and then I need to get free shipping. So I've now wasted four hours of my time. I bill for hours of my time at hundreds, thousands of hours.

38:45Vivian Tu:When I consult for a business, I would have been better off not saving the$15 and just doing a little bit of extra work. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. But it's ingrained in you. It's so ingrained. It's so deeply ingrained. And like my husband was not raised that way. So he will literally just go to the retailer site and buy the jeans, no discount code and pay for shipping. And it just like drives me nuts. He doesn't have immigrant parents. He doesn't. Yeah, there's no way. He doesn't. But there are also other things that like his parents did financially that like are not habits that we're taking on into our life.

39:16Danielle:Do you think there's any language in particular that parents really need to avoid to not traumatize their kids? can't afford really yeah we can't afford this can't afford why because every time i asked for

39:27Vivian Tu:a candy bar in the grocery store aisle my mom would say something like we can't afford this that wasn't necessarily true all the time maybe at the beginning of their careers and when i was younger it actually was true they were really living paycheck to paycheck but at a certain point we got to a more comfortable financial situation and they kept saying that so now i think i can't afford this i can't afford this i can't afford this when i should really be thinking, will making this purchase or making this service higher actually help me make more money? Will it actually help my business? Will it help me feel more comfortable?

39:58Vivian Tu:I say I can't afford this a lot. And I don't like that.

40:01Danielle:I so understand that. And I really like trying to eliminate that. There's three questions that you talk about in terms of childhood and working some of this out that I love, which is what am I insecure about? What did I lack as a child? And what could I be overcompensating for now. You just talk about adding that little friction point. Yeah. Like you said, you don't have your credit card number saved.

40:23Vivian Tu:The problem is it's saved in here, y 'all. But I don't have any of them saved. All of the different retailers now have their own apps. Yeah. I don't have any of those downloaded. Interesting. Because if I make it too easy, I have them all. And I have everything saved. It takes so much time. I know. That's literally the point. The point is for you to have to be annoyed at how crappy the mobile browser interface is for this retailer's website, okay? You want to be annoyed because you're like, I don't like shopping on this website. It's not easy. The page keeps refreshing. I can't get to the second page of the items.

40:57Vivian Tu:Then when you finally decide what item you want, ah, shoot, I don't have my credit card. I'm in my bedroom. It's all the way in the living room. I really don't feel like getting up. I'll do this later. Later, you'll just forget. Don't worry, you don't want it that bad. You're right. But if you make it so frictionless, you're just going to spend and spend mindlessly. I am okay with spending, but I want you to be really excited about everything you spend on.

41:19Danielle:Do you have any other friction points? Because those are good. Those are interesting.

41:22Vivian Tu:I always say that before you buy something online, you need to give it seven days. Okay. So like what I do is I put whatever I want into the cart and then I exit out of the tab. In seven days, if I'm still thinking about that thing and I need it, I can have it. But in seven days, if I've forgotten, well, just saved myself 50 bucks, didn't I?

41:49Danielle:Okay, you've got a lot going on and choosing the right probiotic might not be at the top of your to-do list. I get it. So let's make things simple. Garden of Life is the number one women's probiotic brand for a reason. It's specifically designed for women to support the immune system, vaginal health, and overall women's health. You can feel good knowing that this is the brand so many women trust for their gut health. Garden of Life transforms 16 diverse probiotic strains and 50 billion CFU to support digestive health and a flourishing gut flora. And if you're worried whether Garden of Life Women's Once Daily Probiotic is the real deal, don't, okay?

42:29Danielle:They are certified non-GMO and doctor formulated for women's unique needs. To put it simply, this is an easy way to prioritize your gut health. Garden of Life Formulas for Feeling Alive, available on Amazon. Disclaimer, number one based on Circona 52-week multi-outlet unit sales ending 11-30-25. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This is the biggest night in podcasting. The countdown is on to our 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards. Live from South by Southwest, March 16th, we'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative, talented creators in the industry.

43:13Danielle:It's truly a who's who of the podcasting world. Creativity, knowledge, and passion will all be on full display. And the winner of the iHeart Podcast Award is... See all the nominees now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Audible is a proud sponsor of the Audible Audio Pioneer Award. Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals all in one easy app, Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign Sign up for a free trial at audible.com. Almost 30 years together, four kids, and some of reality TV's most unforgettable moments, we know a thing or two about living life out loud.

43:51Danielle:We're taking you behind the scenes in our new podcast, Between Us, with me, Heather Dubrow. And me, Terry Dubrow. Between Us isn't about perfect lighting or curated Instagram grids. It's the unfiltered, behind-closed-doors conversations you wish you could eavesdrop on. equal parts smart, funny, and a little bit scandalous. Every week, Heather will bring you an unapologetic take on the headlines, the trends, and the cultural moments everyone's texting about. And Terry will deliver insider beauty, health, and wellness insights you won't find on TikTok. Together, we'll tell the stories, spill the secrets, and share the hacks that keep life, marriage, and everything in between feeling fresh and fun.

44:30Danielle:We may live in a gated community, but there's zero gatekeeping here. And plenty of, did they just say that moments? Listen to Between Us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

44:43Vivian Tu:Usually on This Podcast Will Kill You, we talk about the diseases, infections, and biological threats that can make us really sick. But right now, we're doing something a little different. We're stepping back and looking at what the human body needs to keep going.

44:56Danielle:When you consider what we know about sleep in humans, there's one rule that comes out. We are predictably unpredictable sleepers.

45:04Vivian Tu:We're talking about why sleep works the way it does, why our bodies don't follow neat rules, and why modern life makes rest so hard to come by.

45:11Danielle:The second half of our series takes us to the digestive system with a multi-part series on what happens after we eat.

45:17Vivian Tu:Okay, I just have to say that all of my favorite words apparently are digestive words. Sphincter, peristalsis, duodenum. It's fascinating, it's funny, and it matters so much more than you think.

45:29Danielle:episodes of our new series run from January 20th through February 17th with new episodes every

45:34Vivian Tu:Tuesday on the exactly right network listen to this podcast will kill you as part of the exactly right network on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts

45:49Danielle:I love a good book dedication and I found yours really moving you actually have a few yeah but the last one is what stuck out to me. You say to my future kid or kids, I didn't have rich parents, but you will. I love you. I want to ask you why you wrote that, but also what did your parents give you that money never could? And then what do you hope money will give your child that you didn't have?

46:11Vivian Tu:So something that my parents gave me and gave me every single night is that we got to eat dinner together. No matter what the situation was, no matter what high school activities I had going on. We ate dinner together as a family every night. We didn't eat in front of the TV. We sat at a dining table, a circular one, and we talked about our day. And there was always something so beautiful about that because my parents actually knew what was going on in my life. And I also even just saw like the sacrifices they made for me, aside from just like the whole immigrating to this country, not speaking the language thing.

46:44Vivian Tu:I saw the sacrifices they made for me around food. I'm Chinese. My family is from Shanghai. And in Shanghai culture, live steamed fish is a very popular dish. And the way we would eat this fish is I would get the body, my mom would consume the tail, and my dad would eat the head. The head has little to no meat. It is incredibly challenging to get around all of those bones. And I was always given the best piece of fish. and I think that like even though my parents were not rich they gave me the best of everything that

47:20Danielle:they had there's nothing I can do to thank them for that sorry I don't want to get emotional but get emotional it is such an emotional thing I almost cried the other day I was telling somebody that my mom didn't buy like any clothes for 10 years so that I could have the cool jeans yeah

47:34Vivian Tu:and it makes me emotional I get it yeah it's the immigrant story like they came to a country where They didn't know anybody, didn't know the language, didn't know how they were going to make it work. Gritted their teeth. Early morning wake-ups. Like, we made it work. But at every turn, I was always their first thought. I was always the priority. And I feel so grateful that they did that for me because it wasn't a money thing. And I love a lot of the lessons that I learned from them being great parents. but I think me having money is going to give my child so many advantages that my parents weren't able to provide for me.

48:13Vivian Tu:I'm very lucky but I don't think we should all look at me and be like wow yay Vivian like I am an exception. I am like the survivorship bias. I was able to do a lot of these things through a different medley of luck, good timing, and grit but there's so many people who have the exact same story as me who don't get that. For example I remember my parents didn't go on vacation for, I want to say like five years straight, like no days off, no vacation, nothing. They just kept working for five years because each summer they sent me to a accelerated academic camp. And I always joke nerd camp was the first time my eyes were wide open because I went to a public school, but there were kids that were from incredibly wealthy families and they went to private school, some of the best in the country.

49:00Vivian Tu:And they all had their sights set on Harvard and Yale and Princeton. And I was in middle school. I hadn't even thought about that yet. But like for the first time, I wasn't the smartest kid in the room. And I realized there was a whole other world out there that if I wanted to be a part of, I would need to get my game up. I would need to be smarter. I would need to read harder books. I would need to be able to do more math. I needed to be better at science. I needed to understand more. And it just opened my worldview. My parents would only afford to send me to two weeks every summer. I did it for like four years.

49:29Vivian Tu:And because that they had to forego a vacation because i think the cost of it was like four or five thousand dollars yeah and i want to be able to provide my child all of those opportunities and more i wrote all of my own college essays i submitted all of my own applications i didn't have a counselor oh i had a counselor from my public school but he was also counseling 50 other kids 100 other kids yeah my graduating class was 330 people in high school so like there were three counselors each of them took 100, 110. I didn't have the specialized handholding to help me with those applications. So I'm sure I made some mistakes.

50:02Vivian Tu:I'm sure they weren't perfect. I got, I don't want to just say lucky. I worked incredibly hard. I was the valedictorian in my high school. But I think if my parents had had the money to get me the counselor, to help someone edit my essays, to do all those things, maybe, you know, my story would look different.

50:17Danielle:Being valedictorian, that's such a hard word for me to say, but being valedictorian. For years, I said valedictorian. It's valedictorian.

50:25Vivian Tu:Well, it did feel like a valedictorian victory that I made it.

50:28Danielle:Was that fueled partly by that jeans moment? Was it like, I will get myself into a different situation? Or what was the fuel behind that?

50:36Vivian Tu:I think it was the jeans. But it was also, I told you about that summer camp that I would go to in middle school. Like, there were older kids. So like, my first year that I went, I was 13. I was on the younger end. There were kids that were like up to 16. So 13 to 16-ish. and there were students that were already starting to like visit campuses and think about where they wanted to go to school and I overheard these conversations of like well I need to have enough extracurriculars and take enough AP classes and like you know some people were the valedictorian and some people weren't and like the people who were had better shots and in my family being immigrants it felt like education was probably the only way for me to have socioeconomic mobility And so I said, if I want to be rich, I got to get into a fancy college.

51:22Vivian Tu:If I want to get into a fancy college, I have to do really, really well in school. And so I took every single AP class basically that my high school offered. I took 13 AP classes throughout my course. Insane. I know. I know. And I strategically designed my schedule and I started taking AP classes earlier because your weighted grade point average would get to be a five if you got an A versus a four. And I like literally did the calculus. So you're hacking the system.

51:47Danielle:But you kind of did that with the internet, right? Like you went into finance and you saw the internet and you were like, I'm going to figure this thing out.

51:53Vivian Tu:Yeah, sort of. But like for me, it was always about optimizing. Optimizing for the result that I wanted. And when I got it, it was euphoric. It felt like it all paid off.

52:04Danielle:A lot of what you're saying here really is about the value of time. Well, one of the things you are known for is dating and relationship finance. When you're on the internet talking about dating, people eat it up. But they also hate me and that's okay.

52:20Vivian Tu:You think? Oh, I get a lot of hate comments. What do you mean? I'll talk about dating and my opinions on it and things like that. And people will be like, her marriage isn't going to last. But I feel like you have a lot of common sense advice. What do they get mad about? I'm like, oh, you know, my husband supported us more in our early relationship because I didn't make as much money. And now that I'm the breadwinner, like I support more of this. and people are always like, she's rubbing it in his face now. I'm not, babe. My husband is stoked. He's so excited. He's like, when can I retire and start playing golf?

52:52Vivian Tu:But like, you know what? People are going to say what they want to say on the internet. And I will say that's probably just a very vocal minority, especially just like very like deranged, jaded men. Like who hurt you, babe? But for the most part, I would say people do love that kind of content that I make and especially women because it's empowering.

53:09Danielle:Well, you were the first person I heard talking about equity versus equality, right? Yeah. Was that the distinction? And I thought that was so interesting. But you say you actually want people to, I'm going to curse, fuck around and find out about finances on the first date. Yes. Vivian, I don't know. This is where I may disagree. Really? Yeah. Convince me, please. Yeah. How do you do this without sounding like a cuckoo bird?

53:36Vivian Tu:Okay, well, Danielle, we're not showing up to the date and being like, show me your W-2. It's not like that. What's your credit score? No, which by the way, a lot of young gentlemen are putting their credit scores on their Hinge profiles right now. I've heard it from my friends and I've seen it online. It is genius. It is genius. It makes you a more eligible partner. I'm so sorry. Well, it depends what your score is. Well, yeah.

54:00Danielle:What do you think is if it's under 700 or is that number too low?

54:05Vivian Tu:Listen, I think you need to have a great or excellent credit score. It doesn't need to be perfect. So it should be over 700 then? Yeah, I think so. I'm not saying people with lower than 700 credit scores are undateable, but I would be working on that if you are trying to find a partner. I wouldn't be putting it on my Hinge profile. Certainly not. Certainly would not be advertising that.

54:25Danielle:Okay, so tell me on a first date. Let's role play. We're on a first date. Yeah. Okay, and we're talking about the food and things are going well, and I'm the guy, you're me. Okay. Okay. What are you going to say to bring up money?

54:38Vivian Tu:Okay. So Daniel, you mentioned that you work in finance. What if enough money for you to retire tomorrow fell into your lap tomorrow? Do you think you would still have the same job or would you want to do something else?

54:49Danielle:Oh, that's a good one. Because it's not really asking for a number. It's a mindset.

54:54Vivian Tu:Imagine they're like, absolutely not. I would want to be a, you know, youth league football coach. That tells you something. Or if they're like, actually, I really like my job. And I would probably still do it even if the money didn't matter. That also tells you something about that person.

55:07Danielle:That's really good, Vivian.

55:10Vivian Tu:I would go on a date with you. I would go on a date with you.

55:12Danielle:And it would be a really good date too. We'd have a lot to discuss. You say fairly confident people are willing to get naked in front of someone before they're willing to talk about money. I love how you say how awkward money has to be for getting naked to be the alternative. Literally. It's crazy. So what's the financial equivalent of just like taking your shirt off?

55:31Vivian Tu:Okay, but your pants stay on? Yes. Okay. You know, I think the financial equivalent of like fully taking your shirt off, like full upper, you see everything. Cause I just assume I'm not wearing a bra in this situation. I would say probably talking about how much you make every single year. Really? Is a big step. Yeah. It's a big step. I do. But the story, the way I did it was actually a really horrible story, but it had a really great ending. So I had moved from my midtown, like corporate slog apartment into a cool, beautiful, like, Nolita walk up. Me and my girl roommate, we were finally about to have our Carrie Bradshaw Sex and the City story.

56:11Vivian Tu:And the first weekend, she was in the apartment, sleeping, everything. She woke in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. She flicked on the lights and saw a thousand little things spread away. How little? Very little, because, fun fact, the American cockroach does not actually breed that quickly. It's not that big of a problem. However, these were German cockroaches and German cockroaches breed incredibly quickly. So if you see them, just know that there are probably tens of thousands of them in your walls. So it was a full on infestation and we had to get out of the apartment. That's when you need money.

56:45Vivian Tu:That's when you need money. That's the emergency bug. It really is. So she was dating this guy at this time and I was dating my now husband. We essentially moved in with our significant others and they both had roommates. nights and you know the first couple nights turned into a week turned into two weeks turned into three weeks as we're trying to figure out how to move our stuff out how to like fight the landlord just what can we do and it all came to a head when we realized that we didn't have the time or the effort or the money frankly to go to court over the situation so we paid the lease break it was eight thousand dollars four thousand her four thousand me wow it was all of the money that i had saved from my first year of working all of it so i had felt like i had run on a treadmill in place for 12 months after working 80 hours a week, that is a nightmare to feel like you are no better off.

57:32Vivian Tu:And I didn't even get to do anything fun with the$4 ,000. Like I didn't get to go to a club and pop bottles for a night. Like I was paying to get out of a roach apartment. That was terrible. Terrible. Then I had to have a really hard conversation with my now husband. And I said, I know I've been here for three weeks. I just want to let you know, I'm spending this much money to break my lease. I don't have a single dollar to pay you in rent. I don't know what I'm frankly going to even do I can like barely afford movers this is how much I make this is what my bonus is going to be that's all I've got and my husband was so wonderful and keep in mind this was by the way just like a strange man that I had met I had only known him like probably like 45 days at this point and he was like don't worry I never expected you to pay rent and since we're talking about it like this is how much I make this is how much my bonus is I don't need your money we're cool it was such a relief one to hear that he didn't need me to pay rent.

58:23Vivian Tu:But two, once we had that, once it was out in the open, it felt like we could talk about anything. Nothing was weird after that. Nothing was awkward after that. I was like, do you have student loans? And he was like, no, do you? And I was like, no, we didn't have student loans for different reasons. I got merit scholarships and, you know, my parents helped me with a 529. He went to a state university. So it was relatively cheaper. He was an RA. He paid for it through a scholarship that he had gotten. But we had these big conversations. And my husband and I, we are a normal couple. We fight like normal couples, but we've never fought about money because I had to get naked with him 30 days into the relationship and be like, tell me.

59:02Vivian Tu:But it actually ended up having a happy ending to the story.

59:05Danielle:I think you're hitting on something really deep in relationships too, which is the psychology of being honest. So like, I think most fights start because of expectations and assumptions. Yeah. If you assume you make an ass out of you and me. No, truly. There's a reason that saying exists. And so like you, by being so radically honest, avoided having any of those made up assumptions or expectations that the other didn't agree upon. Yeah.

59:31Vivian Tu:But let me be very clear. I don't want that for most people. I don't think 30 days into your relationship is when you should have the full on conversation. I think you can wait a little longer. Yeah. That conversation was incredibly painful for me to have. It was embarrassing. I felt ashamed. Not one good emotion until afterwards, but it was a really necessary conversation at some point for us to have. I think I just wish it had happened maybe two months later. What if we get financially naked and see or hear something we don't like? I think it really depends on where you're at in your life. Is it something that you want to work through with this person?

1:00:07Vivian Tu:Is it something that they're currently working through? We are adults here. I think open and honest communication is wonderful. But if you are someone who's like, I'm trying to be married and buying a home in the next two years, and you're on a date with someone with a credit score that starts with a five, you're probably not doing that with that person. If someone's got five-figure credit card debt, six-figure student loan debt, just, you know, fee-fi-fo-fum debt, they're going to have to likely manage some of that before you can make other purchases in your life. And again, I'm not saying those people are unfable.

1:00:41Vivian Tu:How big can the gap be though? What do you mean? What's a gap that you can overcome? That's up to each person. If that person has debt, but they are a high income earner, maybe they're a software engineer in San Francisco, they just don't know how to manage their money. I think that's one conversation. But if you are in deep credit card debt and you don't have the income to cover it, that's a different conversation. It's all nuanced. But I would say you need to find someone who values a dollar the same way you do. it doesn't need to be someone who's debt-free. It doesn't need to be someone who has a big inheritance coming.

1:01:11Vivian Tu:But if you are someone who is very goal-oriented and you're like, I want to buy a home. I want to purchase a car. I want to save up for this wedding. And this other person is off just like faffing about spending money on a new set of golf clubs and new cool clothes and a new cool car that is not a important car for the two of you. It's just like a two seater coop and you guys are trying to build a family together, you will build so much resentment inside of you. It's not going to be a tenable relationship. I was dating somebody who

1:01:42Danielle:made way more money than me and we valued a dollar very differently. I was taught to live below your means and he was not. And it was complicated because he made more. So I didn't want it to seem like I was counting his money. I was just thinking down the road, this is going to be a problem. And we finally had the conversation and he was like, well, you seem to be good at managing it. Why don't you just manage my money? I can't take on more labor. Yeah. The problem is you don't want to manage your money. Your face looks so scared.

1:02:14Vivian Tu:Well, I think the idea in theory is actually really positive that he trusted you enough to be like, why don't you help me? Because that way we can move toward a goal of doing this together. I think that's positive. The problem was putting more unpaid labor on you. And also eventually at some point it would come to a head that he wanted to do something, spend his money a certain way. And you would be like, Hey, I like, don't think you should do that. And now he resents you because he earned it. How are you going to tell him he can't spend his money that he made however he wants? So I think both people need to both be on the same page.

1:02:49Vivian Tu:You have to both be active contributors into your family's finances.

1:02:53Danielle:I love how realistically you talk about it. You hear so many people online just say like, you'll have a conversation, love is enough, you'll overcome. And from the beginning, you've always said, no.

1:03:03Vivian Tu:When has love ever been enough? The divorce rate is what it is in this country. People love each other, but people are not good partners to each other. People are always like, I would die for you. Would you budget for each other? Would you save money for each other? Would you live well for each other? Would you eat healthy for each other? Dying is like the easiest thing you can do. Like you don't have to do anything after that. At least to the best of my knowledge, I guess. But like making a responsible choice every single day is a very hard thing to do. But if you want something to work, you'll do it.

1:03:32Danielle:And on the flip side, you're not a snob. You never say, don't date somebody

1:03:36Vivian Tu:because they make$48 ,000. I mean, if I was a snob or if my partner was a snob, frankly, he probably shouldn't have been dating me. I was the brokey in our relationship for the first five years. And he was never a snob about it. And man, is he a good angel investor because look where he picked me off. And then now we're here. he's looking like the greatest investor. And it's never been about how much does this person have? It's what are their genuine values and how are they going to live a life? And is it compatible with yours?

1:04:13Danielle:Okay. You've got a lot going on and choosing the right probiotic might not be at the top of your to-do list. I get it. So let's make things simple. Garden of Life is the number one women's probiotic brand for a reason. It's specifically designed for women to support the immune system, vaginal health, and overall women's health. You can feel good knowing that this is the brand so many women trust for their gut health. Garden of Life transforms 16 diverse probiotic strains and 50 billion CFU to support digestive health and a flourishing gut flora. And if you're worried whether Garden of Life women's once daily probiotic is the real deal, Don't, okay?

1:04:53Danielle:They are certified non-GMO and doctor formulated for women's unique needs. To put it simply, this is an easy way to prioritize your gut health. Garden of Life, formulas for feeling alive. Available on Amazon. Disclaimer, number one based on Circona 52-week multi-outlet unit sales ending 11-30-25. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This is the biggest night in podcasting. The countdown is on to our 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards. Live from South by Southwest, March 16th, we'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative, talented creators in the industry.

1:05:37Danielle:It's truly a who's who of the podcasting world. Creativity, knowledge, and passion will all be on full display. And the winner of the iHeart Podcast Award is... See all the nominees now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Audible is a proud sponsor of the Audible Audio Pioneer Award. Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals all in one easy app. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free trial at audible.com. Almost 30 years together, four kids, and some of reality TV's most unforgettable moments, we know a thing or two about living life out loud.

1:06:15Danielle:We're taking you behind the scenes in our new podcast, Between Us, with me, Heather Dubrow. And me, Terry DeBrow. Between Us isn't about perfect lighting or curated Instagram grids. It's the unfiltered, behind-closed-doors conversations you wish you could eavesdrop on. Equal parts smart, funny, and a little bit scandalous. Every week, Heather will bring you an unapologetic take on the headlines, the trends, and the cultural moments everyone's texting about. And Terry will deliver insider beauty, health, and wellness insights you won't find on TikTok. Together, we'll tell the stories, spill the secrets, and share the hacks that keep life, marriage, and everything in between feeling fresh and fun.

1:06:54Danielle:We may live in a gated community, but there's zero gatekeeping here. And plenty of, did they just say that moments? Listen to Between Us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:07:07Vivian Tu:Usually on This Podcast Will Kill You, we talk about the diseases, infections, and biological threats that can make us really sick.

1:07:13Danielle:But right now, we're doing something a little different.

1:07:16Vivian Tu:We're stepping back and looking at what the human body needs to keep going.

1:07:20Danielle:When you consider what we know about sleep in humans, there's one rule that comes out. We are predictably unpredictable sleepers.

1:07:28Vivian Tu:We're talking about why sleep works the way it does, why our bodies don't follow neat rules, and why modern life makes rest so hard to come by.

1:07:35Danielle:The second half of our series takes us to the digestive system with a multi-part series on what happens after we eat.

1:07:41Vivian Tu:Okay, I just have to say that all of my favorite words apparently are digestive. words. Yeah, sphincter, peristalsis, duodenum. It's fascinating, it's funny, and it matters so much more than you think.

1:07:53Danielle:Episodes of our new series run from January 20th through February 17th with new episodes every Tuesday on the Exactly Right Network.

1:08:00Vivian Tu:Listen to this podcast will kill you as part of the Exactly Right Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:08:13Danielle:I had a girlfriend. I never kiss anybody on the first date. You don't? Never. I've never in my life. I'm not saying it's a rule. Maybe I'm a little sketchy. No, but so my friend Brooke, hopefully she doesn't mind me saying this, always kissed the guy on the first date because she was like, I wanted to see if there was chemistry.

1:08:28Vivian Tu:Okay, Brooke, you and me, same page. Yes.

1:08:31Danielle:I mean, she was even like, I want to know if the sex is good. Like, I want to know, not on the first date. I don't want to know on the first date. But like quickly, she was just more like, I want to know if there's chemistry. Do you think we should have that same mentality about money?

1:08:43Vivian Tu:Yes. Always. Yes, because the sooner you find out, the sooner you can make an educated decision of if it's the right person or not.

1:08:49Danielle:So should I be starting to kiss people on first dates, Vivian? I think so.

1:08:53Vivian Tu:Listen, I'm not talking about like a heavy makeout session with like petting involved, but like goodbye kiss is nice. Okay. Like a Disney movie, like appropriate for family. as they drop you off on your front doorstep type thing? I'm always like, I don't know, you don't touch me.

1:09:09Danielle:Like, I don't even want them to like put their arm around me. I'm like, yeah. I have a friend who's a comedian and he was like, you come off so professional. Like it's an interview. Yeah, like it's a problem. You need to relax. Okay, anyways, I'm going to give you a scenario. This is a real situation. Okay. Okay, I love the way you say either you talk about money early on or you talk about it in divorce court. So I know someone who never made it down the aisle, but I feel like this still applies. So tell me what you think. I have a friend who was dating a guy she thought was the one. They had talked about finances to a degree because she's a planner and they met each other's parents and were planning to get engaged.

1:09:44Danielle:She was talking about a wedding the following year. Then she finds out he has, you're breathing heavy. Then she finds out he has no savings account. And when she pressed him about the engagement plans, he said he was planning to buy the ring with his year-end bonus. When she tried to help him set up a budget and get on the same financial plan for their future, he shut down and asked to be done with the conversation. She broke up with him the next week because it was such a turnoff. They were together for almost a year. So with that in mind, tell me why you advocate for treating relationships like a business.

1:10:13Vivian Tu:Thousand percent. I think your friend did the right thing. Really? Yeah, I do. Because people who do not treat their relationship with the reverence and respect we give to businesses, well, it's not going to work. I mean, imagine you and I were in business together. and you were like, hey, Vivian, I actually think the budget for the way we're spending on this business isn't going to work. And I'm the CFO. And I'm like, Danielle, I don't want to have this conversation. That would never happen. If I talked to my business managers and I was like, hey, the numbers on this aren't looking good. And they came back and they're like, don't worry about it.

1:10:51Vivian Tu:Don't worry about it. We don't want to have this conversation this week. I'd be like, you're fired. Are you nuts? In the same way that like, if you and I were to go into business together, we would have a very clear outline. First and foremost, what are you doing? What am I doing? You're the CMO. Am I the CFO? We have our roles and responsibilities delineated. How much are you getting paid? How much am I getting paid? How much equity are you getting? How much equity am I getting? We need to have this all outlined in the same way that in a relationship, you need to be sitting down and having this conversation of how are we splitting expenses?

1:11:19Vivian Tu:How are we going to be splitting up traditional gender roles of like, is one of us going to take a step back if we start our family? We need to have conversations of like, are we gonna be supporting our parents in their old age? And if that is the case, that's gonna come from the group budget. If you don't have these conversations now, it's really hard to have them later on when things are already in the midst of happening, right? It's easier to have this family planning conversation before you have any kids. It's easier to have the, are we taking care of parents before somebody's parents has a fall?

1:11:49Vivian Tu:It's easier to do it on a bright sunny day where you and I feel nothing but love for each other versus when one of us has already cheated on the other person and now we're about to go through court and I'm just trying to twist the knife. People always think it's about winning in divorce court. No, it's about getting you personally the best outcome possible, even if it means the other person gets slightly more or has a slightly better outcome. You want to optimize for your best result. Well said.

1:12:15Danielle:I noticed you use the word rich instead of wealthy.

1:12:18Vivian Tu:Yeah.

1:12:19Danielle:Why do you like the word rich?

1:12:20Vivian Tu:I think it's bold. I think people talk about rich being very tacky. What's the saying? They're like rich yells, wealth whispers or something like lame like that. It's the same word, okay? It's the same word, but a PR spin. I think wealthy oftentimes is associated with old school money. You know, it's generational wealth passed down. But like, I know people who are in generational wealth families and that wealth is actually just getting smaller and smaller and smaller because the next and next generation don't want to work or they're not managing the money wisely or they're spending more than the interest that the money is bearing.

1:12:55Vivian Tu:I say rich because rich is bold, it's proud, it's loud. And because I'm new money. I grew up without this. I have no class when it comes to it. I'm gonna spend with what I want. I'm gonna do what I want. I don't care if you turn your nose up at it. Maybe you think it's gaudy. Maybe you think whatever, but I'm not spending my money for you to like me. I'm spending my money to spark joy in my own life. And if I can't do that, then what's the point? When did you feel rich? I don't know if I feel rich now. I think I feel rich in that, like, I have a life that I'm really proud of. I have the ability to buy back some of my own time now.

1:13:33Vivian Tu:But I think the goalposts do keep moving. And I think this is a different answer than I've given in past podcasts. I feel rich because I have what I need. But the number does grow when I realize that eventually I'm going to want to help my parents, that they're going to have needs that need to be met. The goalposts move when I think about, do I want to have one or two kids? And do I want to be able to put them in every single extracurricular that they want to do and never be able to tell them no about some sort of academic summer camp that they want to go to? I'm not promising that I'm going to buy my kids designer clothes.

1:14:05Vivian Tu:Certainly not. Y 'all are going to be wearing normal clothes. But I don't want to have to say no if they want to go to Washington, D.C. and tour all of the museums. I don't want to have to say no if they want to do a study abroad program. I want them to be able to buy experiences. And so the number does keep changing. It's a beautiful answer. Yeah. I'm going to do some rapid fire with you.

1:14:29Danielle:Ready? Let's do it.

1:14:34Vivian Tu:Most overrated rich person purchase? A boat. I think it's such a waste of money, frankly. Also, I get seasick. Like I got to do the patch and the bracelet and the sniffing lemons thing. Like, so I just maybe I'm not into boats. One financial rule you think is outdated. I would say that if you don't buy a house, you're a loser. Like, I think you can rent or buy whatever makes sense for you. But right now, it is cheaper to rent than buy in all major metros. If you want to buy, it can still be a part of your American dream. But you've got to get creative. Maybe you're going to get some really interesting financing.

1:15:06Vivian Tu:You're going to use an FHA loan or conventional 97. Or if you're buying in a rural area, a USDA loan, whatever. but like the whole trope of me and my husband and our nuclear family of two and a half kids and our golden retriever with the tire swing out front with the white picket fence doesn't exist is soft life a myth or a goal only if you buy it yourself like i feel like there are so many tiktok trends now that are like i want a soft life i want to be pilates princess i want to be not working on a tuesday girl if somebody in your life has the power to feed you they have the power to starve you.

1:15:39Vivian Tu:So your soft life can be a very hard one, very quick. If you don't have your act together, if you can get yourself a soft life by making sure that your investments are funding, all of that more power to you. A product that you always say is worth it. You know what it is? It's not even a product. I get lash extensions every two to three weeks. Shout out primp daddy in New York city. I have been seeing this man for longer than I've known my husband. I do not skip. I see my lash guy. It is going to church. I am seeing this man constantly. So what if you're not in New York, you'll go just to see him.

1:16:09Danielle:Yeah.

1:16:09Vivian Tu:Wow. I need it, Danielle.

1:16:11Danielle:What's one thing every woman should try once?

1:16:13Vivian Tu:I would say probably living alone. I never got the chance to, and I think it's one of my bigger regrets. I think living by yourself, having your own space, and being entirely responsible and entirely independent is just such a powerful feeling. Very cool.

1:16:28Danielle:A financial book that changed your life besides your own that you think everybody should read.

1:16:33Vivian Tu:I love Richest Man in Babylon. It's kind of a beginner's book. It teaches basic financial concepts through a lens of like parables and analogies of ancient Babylonia of like buying donkeys and going to the Bazar and whatever. And so it's really easy to understand. It's also very thin. So like if you're someone who's like scared about reading a finance book, grab it. It's easy. How about any book that changed your life? I can't remember the author's names and I'm so embarrassed, but it's called Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office. It's a book that goes through like little tips of like things you should and shouldn't be doing in a corporate career workplace.

1:17:07Vivian Tu:Okay. That'll help you improve your presence and your life and your work. I got the book because my mentor gave it to me. It was her copy. I've never returned it. She'd probably forgotten about it, but like, I've never returned it. And I loved this book. And the number one tip that I remember is never bring cookies or brownies to the office. And the cookies and brownies aren't just like actually a thing. It's like the representation of like, if you are known as the woman who provides sweet treats or has candy at her desk, that is the only thing you'll be thought of. You'll be thought of as someone who does nice things for others versus someone who's serious versus someone who can do a deal versus someone who is the most powerful person.

1:17:47Danielle:I was the intern who always brought cookies. I wish I would have had that book. You can't. I love that. You can't do it. Okay, grab the card game. Okay. I'm so glad you're here in person. Pick whichever card calls to you. Can I do a little shuffle first?

1:17:58Vivian Tu:Yeah, of course. Okay. what's my superpower you know what it is i'm flash from the incredibles i've never seen it you've never seen the incredibles okay i love cartoons but my superpower is that i'm fast and the reason i say that that's my superpower is people are always like you're so smart you're so like decisive no it's not even that i'm just faster than everybody like i do everything fast i drink water fast i like walk fast but when it comes to business in the time that it took most people to think through options A, B, and C. I already tried A and B. I knew they didn't work. So now I'm on to C and I can get to a solution faster than everybody else because I move faster.

1:18:37Vivian Tu:And it's something that I'm really proud of.

1:18:38Danielle:I think that's so awesome. Were you like that as a kid?

1:18:41Vivian Tu:Yeah. Unfortunately, I'm very much someone who's like, let's do it and figure it out later. And in some cases, that's definitely bitten me in the butt. But in most cases, because I've failed quickly and learn to cut bait quickly. I've just been able to get ahead faster than other people.

1:18:56Danielle:Vivian, you really are well endowed. Thank you.

1:19:04Danielle:Okay. You know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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1:20:57Vivian Tu:Then she says, have you seen a photo of my son? And I'm like, who is this person?

1:21:03Danielle:Welcome to the Boys and Girls Podcast. Arranged marriage is basically a reality show, and you're auditioning for your soulmate. And who's judging? Only your entire family? I sacrificed myself to this ancient tradition, hoping to find love the right way. And instead, I found chaos, comedy, and a lot of cringe. Listen to Boys and Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Wells Adams with By Order of the Faithfuls podcast, alongside my fellow faithfuls and co-hosts, Tamara Judge and Dolores Catania. The three of us have been watching this season of The Traitors, and we've been inside that castle.

1:21:42Danielle:so we have insight unlike many others. This season of The Traders may be the best we've ever seen. Listen to By Order of the Faithfuls on America's number one podcast network, iHeart, follow By Order of the Faithfuls, and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.