The Secret to a Long Career? Have More Fun. Lessons From Stephen Colbert’s Head Writer Ariel Dumas

27:39Danielle:So 13 Emmy nominations and one win later. Yeah. When you look back at that version of Ariel, do you feel like you were underestimating yourself? I think in certain times I was when I was taking improv classes and and you know trying to decide what to do and you know I did you know twice a year Lauren Michaels comes to Second City and sees shows which is awesome but if you're not in those shows or if you're not in the showcase it's a really hard thing to do to do that audition it's incredibly difficult I was not good at it and I was sort of like oh god what am I going to do now? Because I want to do this.

28:20I want to get paid to do it. And then the EP of the Colbert Report, Tom Purcell, who had also been a touring company member at Second City, came and gave us this great talk. And he said, this industry needs nice people who are hardworking and funny. And if you want to read what one of our scripts looks like, or if you want to keep in touch, you know, email me. And this was like a room full of people. And I emailed him after, and I was like, thanks so much. I would love to get a script. And I wound up on the list to receive the packet when they were hiring. I learned later that no one else had sent a thank you note.

28:56And I was like, did you hand write it? No, no, just email. Just like God, his email. And the power of the thank you note. Yeah, it was just a little note. But also, honestly, power of Tom Purcell. because he is a really good guy to send that packet to a 28 year old who, you know, 28, I don't know how old I was. Someone who hadn't, who hadn't like written for TV a day in her life.

29:22Danielle:So at this point now you're working at Colbert, you're in your thirties. Was the writer's room everything you thought it would be? Yeah, it was awesome. It was, it was, I mean, it was different than I thought it would be. In what ways? It was so, I mean, I knew it would be smart. I knew it would be brainy. I didn't know just how in depth the fidelity of the research and the integrity of the jokes were. So like we really pride ourselves on knowing our shit. And like at one point we'd written a script about the deregulation of derivatives trading. trading. Well, I would say that Stephen was the most serious of the late night hosts.

30:06Oh, that's nice. Yeah. And he cares deeply about the country. We all love our country, but like he really, really, really cares. And yeah, he's a patriot and he just knows everything. And so does Tom. And that was incredible.

30:21Danielle:I'm so curious. What was your first impression of him compared to who he ultimately was in your eyes all those years later? I think it was, I think it just, he was the same. It was the same. He was like a nice dad who was like laser sharp wit and so brainy, but also like so silly, like he would get his deli order in the morning and then like throw his toast across the room at whoever wanted to eat it. And it was like really prioritized feelings of how we felt about the stories, really prioritized having a good time with each other. And those are great qualities. And that's what I felt right away.

31:03And that's how he was until the end. So I think one thing I want to say about something you mentioned a few questions back, which was that I was 26 when I started. Oh, yeah. And I actually feel like I could have started later. And in fact, some people I work with in our writer's room, you know, one woman was in the Peace Corps and then she worked on getting her theater Ph.D. And then she was like, I don't want to do this. Another guy was a I think is a structural engineer, John Thibodeau. People come from all different backgrounds. And I honestly, when I was thinking about pursuing comedy, I really thought of my hero, Julia Child, who didn't start cooking until she was in her like mid 30s.

31:41And she was like, she was not good at it. just start like she failed her exams multiple times and I love that I think there's a lot of pressure to get started young to get like a hot internship and to like be in the room with powerful people yeah that's gonna happen but also like you really have to work on yourself first and you really have to find the joy in what you're gonna do there's a lot of different paths yeah there are there are some people if you can get in that powerful room amazing like god bless but I wasn't I just really like knuckled down and and fell into a sort of also I feel like it's my

32:18Danielle:hard work but then also like I was really lucky so you were at the Colbert Report and then you transitioned to the late show yeah so I am so curious I'm asking for a friend I am so curious about what it takes to hone the voice of a show and if I can just sort of uh share a little bit about my experience. I've been the host and helped launch, I think, three shows from inception. And each time I've done it, I am exhausted. I learned so much, but I've noticed it takes almost a year to figure out what the show actually is. You can do all the legwork you want, but it takes a year. Was that your experience or how did you hone the voice of the show?

33:01Oh, absolutely. I think it took at least six months. We didn't know what our show was going to be. And it also was so dependent on the news cycle. Like we went in there thinking our show is kind of going to be about, I don't know what, maybe, you know, the American experience, the conversation, what people are talking about, which is great. We love that. Except then immediately Trump got elected and we were like, oh, that is what people are talking about. like this unprecedented time in our country is the main conversation and then there's all these other wonderful conversations too happening but finding the voice for that show was a project and i'm really proud that we did it and it took a lot of reps and it took an incredibly strong team you know everyone on our show not just the writers but the staff everyone kind of has comedic input whether it's like selecting the prop that we use doing the music cue um what does it look like?

33:53What's the vibe of the show? What is the audience like? You know, that is it all matters. And we really nailed it. It took it took a while, but it really makes me feel just this heartbreak for the system, the TV system right now, because shows get maybe six episodes, maybe eight, maybe one season. They don't get time to find their voice to breathe and grow.

34:16Danielle:What do you think the pressures are in late night in trying to uphold this institution while also wanting to infuse a fresh new voice? And in your example, like Stephen's voice in particular. Yeah, I think that like it's a challenge. I think that the audience and by audience, I mean the TV viewership in general. I think people will always want to hear what's going on told through jokes and told through a charismatic person. but I think that person also has to deeply care about what's happening or have some sort of personal stake in it I think that's just goes for all good tv is someone who cares about it or a great podcast I think the medium is changing I think no one is fewer and fewer people are turning on broadcast tv at 11 35 we're watching a million other things I'm watching old episodes of below deck below deck med you know while looking at my phone um while playing Nintendo you know because I have a two-year-old and my brain is done.

35:18But, you know, there's a lot of competition out for eyeballs right now. But I think people will always want that. And I think the main challenge is going to be, how do you find what people are caring about right now?

35:30Danielle:Why do you think that's the main challenge? Okay. Because we used to live in a world where a movie would come out and it would be all anyone talked about because really there were only four to six movies out at any time. It used to be like, oh, this thing happened at the Grammys. And that incident would be talked about forever. You know, and people would like hang on that or like a celebrity scandal would happen. And that would be like people would, you know, SNL Weekend Update would do jokes on that several weeks in a row because nothing moved very fast. Now the conversation moves so quickly that it's hard to get a grasp on like what's recognizable.

36:13What do people care about? Also, people have references that are spread out all over. You know, we're not all using the same slang. We're not all looking at the same things. We're not all watching the one Jim Carrey movie that's out. When Austin Powers came out, that, I was a kid when it came out. It was like, oh my God, all anyone talked about was this crazy movie. Because we had one crazy movie. I mean, this is a real like, we had to walk uphill both ways. In my day, we only had one wacky movie a summer. and that's all people talked about and you could do jokes about it and that was your Halloween costume and then that was it.

36:47Danielle:Yeah. You know, it's great that there's more stuff now. I love having all the options and all the voices and everyone gets to come to the table but then also it is overwhelming. So how did you guys figure out what people cared about? We have an incredible research team, just these geniuses with hearts of gold who would cast their net wide and put together daily digests and constant, you know, to the minute daily updates about what are people talking about right now? Was it from the Internet? Because I found that what people are talking about online is cosmically different. So people are talking about in person.

37:22Oh, I know. I mean, yeah. And we tried to make jokes about what people were doing online. And then our audience of like older CBS viewers at night would be like, huh? Yeah, it's not the same dialogue. It's not. So you got, I don't know, you got to just like throw spaghetti at the wall and see. Interesting.

37:47Danielle:This is Danielle Robay from Question Everything. You know me, I've always got a lot going on. I'm moving, I'm working, I'm traveling, I'm juggling and somehow trying to make it all look effortless, right? Well, that means one thing. If I'm wearing it, it has to be comfortable. It has to be breathable and easy. I lean into natural fabrics. That's why I keep reaching for cotton. It's soft and cozy and somehow always feels right. My favorite designers love working with it, so looking polished without sacrificing comfort is pretty much built into the deal. Athleisure, cotton. Loungewear, cotton. And is there anything more versatile than a great cotton t-shirt?

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39:52Danielle:I loved it. On the day I decided to enroll in the nursing program at Rasmussen University, it was afternoon, my 35th birthday. I was hanging out with a friend, and they had just questioned me what I was going to do with this next chapter of my life. I immediately had said, I want to go to nursing school. So I actually had contact information from an advisor at Rasmussen, contacted her, and actually ended up starting like three weeks later. My name is Cherish Adams, and I'm a Rasmussen University graduate. it. Learn more at rasmussen.edu. When Kohler, the global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath products, came to me and said, Martha, we need an ambassador for our timeless, elegant, durable cast iron products.

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41:46Danielle:I can imagine that you wanted to implement things from past experiences that didn't go well. I know I've done that in almost every show I've ever worked on, no matter how great the show is. Like, I always want to do it better the next time. Yeah. So in 2018, there was this Glamour article where you and a few other women who just so happen to be comedic writers got together to talk about late night comedy life. And there were six of you in conversation, but the article was very quick to note that really only 30 % of writers were women in general. Yeah. Eight years later, did that shift? Oh, yeah.

42:23And on our staff, absolutely, it did. I don't know about the general statistic. I'd be interested in knowing about it. And I would be interested in knowing what jokes are getting chosen. You know, the women can be on the staff, but it's like, are they informing the voice of the show? I know on our show they definitely were, you know. Yeah. Why do you think women have such a hard time getting those late night seats? I think that is not a question to be asked of the women or even of me because I think it has to, it starts higher up. I think it all starts with who's running the network, who's hosting, who's the EP, who's in charge and who's deciding who thinks who's funny, you know, like interesting point.

43:13Who thinks who thinks who's funny? I am a writer, I swear. But you know what I mean? Like, like, do you like we, you know, we have a host who thinks women are wildly funny and loves them. And that's great. But if you kind of are like, okay, we gotta have a woman like that kind of attitude is like, thankfully, like not prevalent anymore. I think most late night shows have like a great number of women. But that wasn't always the case.

43:38Danielle:that's really interesting yeah i'm like dying to live through a moment where i see a woman as a permanent late night host yeah um i don't know if that will exist because i don't know if late night will exist you said you feel like late night won't exist yeah i i mean late night has already changed from what it was during the johnny carson time when like millions and millions and Millions of people would watch any night or like the Ed Sullivan show. Like most of America would turn on their TV at night to watch that. That's just not happening anymore. That's just not how we get our entertainment.

44:16I think that there will always be a place for people to make fun of those in power and to make fun of what's happening in the news and to point out a story and say, hey, this is happening. Isn't that crazy? Half the fun of writing this kind of stuff is educating the audience about it. Like the president's building a UFC fight ring on the south lawn of the White House for his birthday. Problem is there will be these giant lights there and there's going to be a lot of bugs. That story was so funny. And we had such great jokes about it. We had to cut it for time. It never made it to air. But that's the story that like my in-laws maybe like didn't know about off the top of their heads that, you know, everyone at those fights was going to get inundated by mosquitoes.

45:01that's fun there will always be a world where pointing something out like that is funny

45:05Danielle:do you feel like podcasts in some ways have become the new version of late night or do you think it's still very different no absolutely i i think it is a different medium um and it's much more casual like our show was like very tightly written very carefully written very carefully produced uh and podcasts are they're like loosey-goosey a little bit they are carefully edited and produced and the questions are so thoughtful and the research has been done. Thank you. So nice of you. But not every podcast is like that. Yeah. And that's also maybe people like that. Maybe white people like it a little looser now.

45:41Danielle:Yeah. I heard this girl on TikTok. She kind of changed my mind about something because she said, Call Her Daddy is not a podcast. It's not an interview show. It is a late night show. Absolutely. Like everything is pre-produced. the sort of like salacious bites are probably run by the publicists and like the way that late night like the guests kind of know what they're going to talk about um i i think it might take that form yes it'll be late night just on a different it'll be on a different platform it'll be on a streamer yeah it'll be i mean late night it just depends on when you're listening to it yeah this is there's no difference between this except the audience yeah and a talk show we're doing a talk show right now you're a talk show host I mean in a great way you're a journalist my dream Ariel I mean this could be on TV like get this camera rolling this could be on TV they are rolling like I don't see why this isn't one get 30 people you know watch what happens live has an audience of like 25 yeah and it's awesome it's like it does change the dynamic when you have a live audience yeah um but the podcast world makes me excited for the medium it makes me for for the future of late night I think that it's a great way to connect with people yeah I mean it sucks if there's like 10 ,000 of them and it is again like you don't unless you are talking with your friends who also listen to that podcast you're not like did you hear what so-and-so said like it doesn't everything is so spread out now so that does suck but so I asked you about the moment you felt like it was really over but I want to go back actually a little further and ask you about the moment when it was announced that it was ending um did you feel like a dream was being taken from you yes absolutely I mean yeah and yeah yes definitely that's so sad yeah and I we got that when I got that call that call was after the show had taped or like kind of at the end of taping and we all were on a zoom together and i actually my husband had gotten me tickets to see as a like very belated mother's day gift to see josh sharps ta-da uh at i think it was at cherry lane and the show started at 7 30 this call was at 7 we were in a bar i was like probably drinking a paloma like and it was just like what it was insane and we coincidentally had a rooftop party that night you know we have these like wonderful gatherings for the staff all summer long and the vibes usually it's like a pretty chill fun oh my god it's such a manic energy we were all like crying and kind of shrieking and laughing like there was this weird effervescence to that moment um yeah grief makes you do strange things yeah that's well said i walked out of that elevator with a glass of rosé yeah like on to broadway which i which is like a very beautiful cinematic street really kind of hobo life thing to do.

48:44I don't know. I was like, all right, I'm drinking out of a plastic cup on Broadway. I'm one of, I'm a real New Yorker.

48:50Danielle:I felt like one of the most memorable moments from the last season was when all four late night hosts Oh my God. gathered together. Yeah. Strike Force Five. Yeah. I'd never seen that kind of camaraderie. I don't know that that could have happened years ago. There was something, it was like a meeting of the moment and of men who were seemingly evolved. Yeah. It was sort of special. What was it like to experience that sort of solidarity between them? It was incredible. It really meant so much. Why am I tearing up about Jimmy Kimmel? But I am. I mean, for last fall's Emmy, for last year, the Emmy campaign season, he put up a billboard that said, I'm voting for Steven.

49:35And I, legit, I'm still thinking about it. I'm still like crying. like it wow it was so nice from from an industry where there used to be the late night wars and like everyone loved talking about the late night wars and it was so i mean we all have the same dumb job very few people have this specific difficult job and it's not difficult like you know we're not doing manual labor it's actually quite easy job we drink a lot of seltzer it's awesome but seltzer is so spot on oh my god and we drink too much and then Everyone gets real gassy. But it is a it's a hard job being in the fire hose of the news.

50:11Yeah. And trying to find the fun. That's pretty wonderful.

50:15Danielle:Yeah. What makes comedy fundamentally human in the age of AI? Comedy is human. Computers can't do it. They're not people. An example is I once tweeted a joke that was like calling your mom, your mom. Oh, your dad was in the hospital, but he's fine now. It's like, what? Like that is very, very funny thing that's happened to adult children everywhere is that their mom calls and randomly drops that your dad had a procedure or had to go to the emergency room. But he's fine now. Don't worry. Like, no, I want to worry. And like sharing that very niche, discreet moment and connecting on it with a stranger is what life is all about.

50:51A computer has no human experience. It has no feelings. It is just stealing stuff left and right, making a big mush of it. And it's like, is this a joke? Look, I can make a thousand more.

51:04Danielle:I also think AI doesn't have taste. Like people do, you know, AI interview questions. And there's maybe like three of 20 that are, I think, usable. It just it's not it's not there. I also think the whole point of doing this job that you enjoy is writing the questions and asking the questions. Your podcast is called Question Everything. You could get a machine and a robot to do that for you. To what? So you can have more time laying down? Like, what do you want to do that's not that? So I'm sure you get asked for advice from aspirational writers all the time. But what is the biggest takeaway that you would offer from your career to anyone who's just trying to be good at their job right now?

51:43You got to have fun. You got to have fun. and that comes with doing it again and again with people you like not caring about the outcome but doing it for the pure joy and fun of it and if it stops being fun and you hate it maybe try tweaking some things like maybe you actually don't need to do that 11 p.m improv show in some guy's basement like maybe that's it but I think find a way to find no you know what I want to go back I don't think this is it. I like fun. I do like fun. But I think it's, yeah, it's have a good time and don't

52:19Danielle:let anyone stop you. The best advice, I've gotten a lot of good career advice and I've sat across from people who have shared a lot of wisdom. And to this day, I think that the piece that runs through my mind before I do anything was from an anchor in Chicago. And he said, Danielle, the person who has the most fun wins. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, Amber Ruffin, who had an incredible late night show, said like, no one can stop me from having a good time. And I was like, that's right. They can't take that away from you. And I think that is the most important thing in this specific career, in this specific industry, because it is so hard and soul crushing.

52:58So if it's not fun, you're not going to, you're going to, you're going to turn into dust. It's, it's like, you have to have a good time and that's contagious.

53:07Danielle:Some rapid fire for you. The funniest thing about Minnesota. Oh, that Minnesota nice is actually the meanest possible way to be. As a cousin to Minnesota in Chicago, I concur. A comedy opinion you would defend in court. Revenge is funny. A joke format that needs to be retired. Nothing. Everything is funny, even if it's done a thousand times. A comedian who raised you. Madeline Kahn. Best late night desk. Letterman, Conan, Colbert, Stewart or Ferguson. Colbert. Conan is a second close runner-up. A woman in comedy who should have had a late night show years ago. Like Meg Stalter's late night show would be awesome.

53:46I would, come on, that would be great. The funniest person you've ever been in a room with.

53:51Danielle:Oh God, Conan O 'Brien is really that funny. The most terrifying room. A writer's room, a therapist's office, or a family group chat. A writer's room. What's harder to write? A monologue joke, an apology text, or a wedding toast. Oh, apology texts. Oh God. A wedding toast is so hard. No way. Because it's not Jenny Hagel writes for Seth Meyers, has an incredible formula. You make it about them. Make it about them. Don't make it about you. It'll be funny. No one wants you to be a super funny guy. You think they do. No, they don't. They don't. Okay. The celebrity who you think would be surprisingly good at late night.

54:23I think Julia Louis-Dreyfus would be excellent.

54:26Danielle:Speaking of, because she's an amazing woman in comedy, what's the most unrealistic part of Hacks? Oh, people would look worse. Look so much worse. including the host although that's part of her whole deal is that she looks fabulous all the time but yeah we dress like garbage so who would win in a writer's room fight deborah vance or stephen colbert oh stephen colbert he arm wrestled us he arm wrestled everyone on staff for like a year and that was so fun and ridiculous yeah uh your favorite second city alum gilda radner a phrase women in comedy never need to hear again ladies oh my god that's why i quit my sorority okay no it's just so like like that's fine if a girl says it but you don't want a man in the room to turn to the women writers and be like ladies like that happened i think like one domino show and all the women were like boom no and then immediately like terrorized whoever the poor guy whoever said that that could have been my favorite answer of all of the questions yeah uh the most surreal famous person you've ever made small talk with Oh, Steve Carell.

55:33Danielle:Whose idea was the peanut song? Oh, that was Barry Julian, our incredible co-EP. He's so funny. He doesn't get a lot of street cred. You don't know about Barry Julian. He is responsible for some of the best bits on our show. And he just quietly like produces and head writes the second act. And is this Canadian who is just a trip. That was so brilliant. Yeah, it was really. And made a lot of money for a good cause. What is something every woman should try once? sitting like this in a public space? I don't know that. I feel crazy doing it. I feel really crazy sitting like this. But do it on the subway.

56:10I have a cousin who sits like this and we're all like, I just think maybe go like this. Yeah, just maybe go like that. I mean, in this setting, no. We're ladies. But we're not ladies.

56:20Danielle:We're not like ladies. What is a book you read that changed your life? Something you think everybody should read? A Slaughterhouse-Five. Love that. Yeah. Will you grab the question everything card game and pick a question at random? In the past, people were buried with items they would need in the afterlife. What would you want buried with you in the afterlife? Big old knife, you know? Wow. Scary. Is this for like fighting in heaven? Like, what are we doing? You can bring these things to the afterlife? Whatever you want. Sweet boombox, some individually wrapped, those like individually wrapped Parmesan bites.

57:01You might be hungry when you're dead. Yeah, might be a little grungry. People use this hangry. No one ever says grungry. Yeah, I don't know. Video games. No, I think, yeah, some notebook and a pen. That's so head writer of you. Gotta doodle. Yeah, gotta write, you know. Ariel, thank you. Thank you. This has been a treat.

57:31Danielle:Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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