The Social Rules Everyone Broke (And Why We’re All So Awkward Now)

14:30Sarah Jane Ho:Oh, I feel personally attacked, Elaine.

14:32Danielle:No, we all love loungewear. We love loungewear. And now, mommy, the athleisure wear and so forth, wear that when you fly, just not your pajamas, right? So it's that sort of thing.

14:41Elaine Swann:I would say what we really lost is the human connection. And I see that even in my 19-year-old son. I think the kids that were at school, they were really most heavily impacted. and now when you see teenagers, sometimes they can't even look an adult in the eye and have a mature conversation and they're hiding behind their screens and that to me is really problematic.

15:02Sarah Jane Ho:Why do you think people behave worse online? I've been thinking about this a lot because there is an element of anonymity, but some people do it and they have their photo, their name, their company profile.

15:14Elaine Swann:I think it's a lack of accountability. It's almost, again, because they feel disconnected from people because you're behind the screen. Then you feel, I can say anything, I can let out my worst side.

15:25Danielle:And it's very scary. And it's that accountability. It's kind of like when maybe there's two people, right? There's someone that's kind of breaking up a fight and the person is dropping because there's someone that's kind of holding them back. But then let that person step to the side and they'll somehow calm down. And so that's what they're doing. They find this thing and they can do this, you know, without any real repercussions in that moment. And I think it gives people a false sense of security, liquid courage, you know, used to just be out drinking and people would get out of hand. But now they're at home and no one's going to check them in that moment.

15:57Sarah Jane Ho:Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I see it even with politicians.

16:00Elaine Swann:Yeah. What happened to statesmanship? We don't have statesmanship anymore. Not anymore. Statesmen are not acting like statesmen. They're not. That's a good point.

16:07Sarah Jane Ho:What do you think the cultural repercussions are of that? Because I think a lot of people feel like, I don't like how this politician acts, but it's about their policies. What does statesmanhood actually mean?

16:21Danielle:So I think what we're seeing is when we talk about our politicians, for example, they think that it's all right to kind of follow the leader or follow this movement that's going along. But in the end, you want to think about how is history going to treat you? When you are speaking, everything you say, your words are creating history. And so whether you have policies that are really helping folks, it's your words that will be remembered by. It's everything we say online. It's everything that we say on camera. That is the thing that's going to stick most. And I think this is where people are kind of forgetting about that.

16:55Danielle:They're so in the moment right now. They want to get their point across, but they're not recognizing the history they are making.

17:01Elaine Swann:And a statesman or a politician is representing the country, right? So first of all, he's the leader, he's the head of the country, and he's representing the country. So if he or she acts a certain way, then people will follow. It's like a parent and child. And so it's very interesting to see, especially since I spend my time between two of the most different countries in the world, China and the U.S. My husband, all his businesses in China, so I spend all my time there. And I see the way our statesmen, our head of countries, head of state, act. And it's very entertaining, and it gives food for thought.

17:30Sarah Jane Ho:We talked a little bit about modern etiquette. What do you think the role of etiquette is in today's society?

17:36Elaine Swann:I think historically, etiquette has changed every generation. So every 15 years, you need a refresh and update. I think with the advent of social media, and by the way, I went to high school with Mark Zuckerberg. He was a year ahead of me at boarding school. I went to Philip Sextor Academy. And the name Facebook, it was a colloquial term for our school photo address book, but everyone called it the Facebook. Oh. And so it was fascinating to know him at high school, to know who he was, and then to see him go to Harvard and then create the Facebook, which then first went to the Ivy Leagues. And then I went to Georgetown, so then followed by Georgetown and then followed by all the other schools.

18:11Elaine Swann:It was fascinating to see him change the world in that way. And with social media, I would say now that etiquette changes every five years. And the curve is becoming steeper and steeper. And it's hard for me to catch up with, you know, my teenage stepson and the things he's doing and the slang they're using. So etiquette really is changing more and more quickly now in modern society. So when you say, what is the role of it? Every couple of years, it's like, OK, we have to revisit what are the roles, what are the new rules of etiquette.

18:38Danielle:But the thing that what we're hearing in this moment and what you're sharing is that it's not going anywhere. So it will always be part of society. It will just shift and change of society, modernizing. I mean, I can remember when I first started in this industry, we were telling people, do not take your cell phone into a job interview and leave it in the car. But now, you know, you'd have to pry that thing out of somebody's hands to do that or not into a restaurant or what have you. So it's shifted. People taking pictures of their meal and their food and things like that that didn't exist. And so etiquette will always be part of our society.

19:12Danielle:It's just that the nuances surrounding it will shift as a society changes. but the core value will always stay there. And that core value of respect for yourself and for others is not going to go.

19:23Sarah Jane Ho:Do you see it as a form of power?

19:25Elaine Swann:I think it can be used as power. In fact, in my book, I say very upfront, I have no interest in being holier than thou and telling you how to be a moral person. What I am giving you is a toolkit to do everything that you want to be able to do, achieve everything you want to be able to achieve, meet everybody you want to be able to meet, form a relationship, deepen a relationship in a short amount of time, whatever you want to do, And power can be part of that if you want, but to do it with grace and with alignment. That's powerful.

19:52Danielle:You know, when you take back your own power and say, okay, I now have the tools. That's interesting.

19:58Sarah Jane Ho:Because I guess my thought was some people benefit from knowing the rules of that.

20:03Elaine Swann:Everybody. If you know the rules, everybody benefits. You benefit. I mean, you have one on the ship.

20:07Sarah Jane Ho:Right. And that is a power.

20:09Danielle:You're already elevating your set in that moment.

20:11Sarah Jane Ho:Right. But I like the idea that it's really about your own power. It's not yielding power over others.

20:16Danielle:Over others. No, it's yours. Oh, interesting. It's yours. Yes.

20:19Sarah Jane Ho:That's a cool way of looking at it.

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21:08Sarah Jane Ho:They are certified non-GMO and doctor formulated for women's unique needs. To put it simply, this is an easy way to prioritize your gut health. Garden of Life, formulas for feeling alive. Available on Amazon. Disclaimer, number one based on Circona 52-week multi-outlet unit sales ending 11-30-25. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI.

21:51Sarah Jane Ho:It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20 % year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast.

22:23Sarah Jane Ho:Paid for by Public Investing. Brokerage services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA, and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skincare simple, and it's loved by millions of women.

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23:39Elaine Swann:It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship, and signature touches inspired by a Mountain West heritage. Distinctive styles created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape, feel-good fits offering ease of movement, and thoughtful details to elevate your look. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit coldwatercreek.com. Shop the new spring collection at 20 % off$75 or more with code IHEART20.

24:12Sarah Jane Ho:Who do you think pays the biggest social price for bad manners, men or women?

24:17Danielle:Here in the U.S., I think men get away with a lot. Everywhere, not just the U.S., mine as well. Really? They get away with a lot of jokes. 10 times over, a woman could say and do the same thing a man did, and we would just be crucified over it. But that's in everything, I think.

24:32Sarah Jane Ho:I read a book from a historian. It was really talking about poverty. And he was saying that he felt like most bigotry, racism, homophobia was actually rooted in class divisiveness. I don't believe that's totally true. But I do think there's an element of it that we don't talk about when it comes to etiquette.

24:54Danielle:From a class perspective, I mean, meaning that there's a class. Public it is so sensitive. Yeah, it is. It's sensitive. And I think people have always thought, and they still do, they think etiquette is something that is for the elite. And that's something that I write about in my book. This is for every person. It's just information. It's just tools to help you navigate life. And so with that, you will have the ability to weave in and out through different classes of folks and still present yourself well and be accepted as well.

25:21Sarah Jane Ho:Sarah, you wrote something in your book I want to quote back to you guys. You write, we humans are remarkably bad at determining what actually makes us happy. What do we get so wrong about our desires? And I was confused. How does etiquette reveal that?

25:34Elaine Swann:My own personal journey, and I turned 40 this year. I feel like it's actually my best decade. I've entered my best decade yet because I spent the first half of my life not really knowing what made me happy and not being in my most aligned self, I would say, and not thinking about the way I think. There wasn't a lot of conscious thought going on in my younger years as there is now in my, you know, sort of middle-aged years.

25:58Sarah Jane Ho:Carl Jung says that all the time. Yes.

26:01Elaine Swann:And in fact, when I turned 40 last Thursday, I posted a Carl Jung quote. Yeah. When he says, life really just begins at 40. Everything before that is just research. So going back to your question, which was... About desires. Yeah. You need to think about the way you think, right? That's metacognition. And so many of us are not coming out of ourselves to reflect on ourselves that way. And as a result, we won't truly know ourselves.

26:24Sarah Jane Ho:Well, it's interesting. The way you write about etiquette is almost like it's cognitive behavioral therapy.

26:30Elaine Swann:Yes, it is. And I say that in the book.

26:32Sarah Jane Ho:Can you expand on that?

26:33Elaine Swann:One of my favorite courses in college was anthropology, which is a study of human behavior. And I believe that we as humans, we move through microcultures, multiple microcultures every single day, whether it's our family work, different groups of friends or different microcultures, even different departments in a company like accounting is really different from advertising. Yeah. Right. That microculture is really different. and we are adjusting ourselves ever so slightly in each different microculture and again not losing our personality right but just making the people in that microculture comfortable around us which makes ourselves more comfortable in anthropology the goal is to go native right so we say you're in the field which is when you're observing and every time i go to a new microculture i'm thinking what are they wearing what slang are they using what volume are they speaking at right and adjusting myself and then ultimately you want to be able to go native where people think that you really are one of them and you feel that you're one of them.

27:26Elaine Swann:So this is actually how I approach etiquette. And again, it's because I've lived in such different cultures. I'm so comfortable in the States and I'm so comfortable in China.

27:35Sarah Jane Ho:Elaine, in your book, you write that because etiquette has evolved, we need to have a standard that represents what our world looks like today. I'm curious if you could go granular. What do you think needs to evolve about today's etiquette?

27:48Danielle:I think to your fact where you said it can change as the years go on. And I think what needs to evolve in this particular moment is for people to really grasp the way we communicate online. That's the portion of it that needs to evolve, I believe. We know for a fact that we're leaving a digital footprint everywhere we go, whether it's online or through instant messaging or DMs or what have you. And so the portion of it that needs to evolve is we need to infuse more respect and consideration for others as we're communicating, as we're leading this trail along with us. I feel like we still have not gotten to that point yet.

28:23Danielle:We're still willy-nilly wilding out and people aren't as thoughtful as they can be in the social media or digital communication aspect.

28:32Sarah Jane Ho:I'm hearing you both say that etiquette hasn't really transcended or gotten to social media yet. Do you think that it can transcend cultures or does each culture have a totally different set of rules?

28:46Elaine Swann:Let me give an example. And I recently did a post about this on my Instagram feed. in the Western world, when you toast, you raise your glass high. And as a celebration and confidence, you raise the high when you toast. In China, if you raise your glass high when you're toasting, that is the most offensive thing you can do because you're telling the other person, I'm better than you. And so in fact, when people toast in China, they lower that glass to show humility. So Elaine, if you and I are toasting, it's actually a race to the bottom to see if you can drop that glass to the table. Let's say if there's a clear boss or subordinate or an older person and a younger person, then the older person would go down, but then just stop ever so slightly.

29:25Elaine Swann:And because I'm younger, I would bring my gloves further down.

29:28Sarah Jane Ho:Reflects the cultural norms and expectations of that stage or country.

29:34Elaine Swann:Yeah. Right. So even though they're interpreted differently, I do think they come from the same place, which is a consideration and respect. So even though there are very different etiquettes for different parts of the world, the intention is the same.

29:47Sarah Jane Ho:Do you think there's a world in which because we have so many different cultures in America that we don't know what to do with each other because we all come from different schools of thought?

29:57Danielle:Not necessarily so, because there's that. But then you have to think community. This is the backbone of our country is community. And the communities that thrive and are growing and are rich. A lot of folks don't look like each other, but that's your neighbor. This is your friend. And we see the kids and so forth. So I don't think so. I don't think it's that separate here because of the community aspect of it. this nation is a melting pot of different cultures and so forth. And I think when the cultures come together, when people, human beings come together and they see eye to eye and they see how much more they have in common with each other than separate, that's where the community portion comes in.

30:32Danielle:And then when community happens, then respect and consideration will follow.

30:37Elaine Swann:I think that is the ideal, although, because I've lived in different cities in the States. So my first job out of Georgetown, I was living in New York City doing investment banking. I was an analyst. And in New York, the first thing you do when you meet somebody is everybody else. So what do you do? What do you do? And in any other part of America, that's considered very rude. And I've had other friends who say, gosh, yeah, you know, can you, friends from the South, friends from the Midwest who were in New York and just found that excessively rude or met a New Yorker, right? A New Yorker came to Chicago or came to Charlotte or wherever and just straight away, you know, at a cocktail or friendly gathering.

31:09Elaine Swann:So what do you do? And people found that very offensive. So I think it's also very entertaining when they're looking at nuances, because you're in LA, everybody, where do you live? Exactly. It's true. That's funny. Yeah, I like that.

31:20Sarah Jane Ho:There's also something, and I don't mean to take this too deep, but when I think about, and I wasn't alive, so I just read about it. The 50s and 60s, there was a want to be American. So no matter where you came from, you were Haitian American or Chinese American or African American or Jewish American, whatever it was. and because I think people in America don't align with some of the ideals of America anymore we dropped that and we just want to be that first word whatever that is and so to me there's like a cohesiveness that's missing in etiquette I don't know I'm not saying it's right or wrong it's just

32:03Elaine Swann:something I see would you say that it's because our country's becoming more divided it is but

32:08Danielle:That's been the plan, the leadership that we have. The plan is to divide our country. The deep state. Yeah. Think about it. I mean, for me, I was a flight attendant when the September 11th, the tragedy during September 11th happened. And I was based in New York at the time. And for me, when I think back about during that time, everybody was our brother. Everybody was our sister. It didn't matter what we looked like. We were all Americans. And everyone was so concerned for one another. And I think we see that in so many cultures when there's tragedy, people just become people. Like the fires in L.A.

32:43Danielle:Yes. People were really united. So I don't think it's gone. I don't think it's disappeared. It's just, unfortunately, folks shift and change when there's pain. Yeah.

32:53Elaine Swann:I remember reading a quote that said, as humans, there's enlightenment when we experience deep love or when we experience deep suffering.

33:00Sarah Jane Ho:I want to talk about etiquette and gender a little bit. But Elaine, you wrote something in your book that ladies are always first. And in a gender fluid world, how do you think we should think about etiquette between genders? Do those rules still serve them?

33:14Danielle:They do still serve us, I think, especially when you're talking about close personal relationships, right? So if it's a personal relationship and it's two individuals, regardless of what your gender is and the relationship you have, let's say, for example, think of it as a dance, right? You're dancing, like the tangle. There's always a leader and someone follows, right? There's one person that's kind of leading the other and so forth. And so as far as etiquette is concerned, you can do the same thing. It doesn't matter your gender. Just as far as your relationship is concerned, whoever kind of does the leading would be the one to open the door.

33:45Danielle:And the one who does the following would be the one to walk through the door.

33:48Sarah Jane Ho:But what if I'm out with friends and there's men and women? In the business arena, chivalry is gender free.

33:55Danielle:So there's no gender. So if you're out with your buddies for lunch and what have you, it doesn't matter who goes through the door first. That's in the business arena. And that's the standard. But if you're out with friends and it's a bunch of girlfriends, whoever gets the door first opens the door and makes sure they hold it for the next one.

34:09Sarah Jane Ho:And if I'm with friends and it's men and women, should the men hold the door for the women?

34:14Danielle:It's a good idea to do that. It's a good idea for men to practice chivalry, to cater to the women he's with. And they don't have to be in a personal romantic relationship to be kind.

34:24Elaine Swann:You know, what's interesting is that there's all this focus on the woman is the weaker sex. So the man lets her go first. In China, no husband or man would let the wife. Yes. Because of Confucianism and Confucius values. There's also a leader and follower. But we say, for example, parents are heavens and children are the earth. And the clear packing order of the family is the man and then the wife or, you know, the sons and then the daughters. So even when I'm with my husband in China, he walks first. I walk a few steps behind him. He opens the door. He walks through first. He leaves it open for me.

34:57Elaine Swann:And then I go behind him. And actually, if he did it the other way, it would be confusing.

35:01Sarah Jane Ho:Do you guys do it differently when you're in LA together?

35:04Elaine Swann:Not really, because my husband doesn't even speak English. So he's very Chinese. Okay. And so in China, all men will just walk ahead of their wives or girlfriends and all the wives and girlfriends, they don't feel that it's demeaning or anything. They want him as the leader because that's how it's been for over 2000 years in Confucianism and how China has been. And I was thinking about this because I like to think about the way I think. I really feel that in the West, it's because of the church and maybe it's a little conspiracy, but I think it's almost a way to control women. I mean, listen, I love it when a man opens the door for me, okay?

35:34Elaine Swann:But because women are controlled by men in the West, it's a way of almost overcompensating, you know, to say like, oh, well, women are the weaker sex. So, okay, we're going to let them walk through the door first to let them feel like...

35:47Danielle:Some can see it from that perspective, but I think some of it, you know, stems from the chivalry and the act of being kind and gracious towards a woman. And I definitely agree with you in terms of the control in so many environments. Because then you start thinking about these kind of microaggressions, right, that take place. But so much of it stemmed, especially here in the West, it stemmed from the gentleman caller, the gentleman doing it. You have to think about how some of the stuff got here to the U.S. Again, we're melting pot. So so many things are brought over from Europe and from our standards.

36:16Danielle:Yeah.

36:16Sarah Jane Ho:It's part of the reason that I wanted the two of you here together. Because I do think that different cultures bring such interesting expectations.

36:25Danielle:Well, here's what I love is that when you said when you're here, that your husband still walks through the door first because he's Chinese. But the thing that's great is this is their culture within themselves. This is their culture in their family. And that is acceptable. And that is what's right.

36:41Elaine Swann:And here's the thing. If my husband, if we're entertaining other friends or international friends or Western friends, he lets them walk through first. So he'll also adjust. So it's so contextual. But at the end of the day, you know, me and my husband were a Chinese couple. We're Chinese friendly. Right.

36:54Danielle:And that's the thing that's so wonderful about, you know, understanding that within the confines of the individual home and the family and the relationship, the community, it all boils down. And whatever you're doing in that aspect, as far as etiquette is concerned, is unique to that nucleus that's there.

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37:58Sarah Jane Ho:They are certified non-GMO and doctor formulated for women's unique needs. To put it simply, this is an easy way to prioritize your gut health. Garden of Life, Formulas for Feeling Alive, available on Amazon. Disclaimer, number one based on Circona 52-week multi-outlet unit sales ending 11-30-25. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI.

38:41Sarah Jane Ho:It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20 % year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. generated assets are like etfs with infinite possibilities completely customizable and based on your thesis not someone else's go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped one percent bonus when you transfer your portfolio that's public.com slash podcast paid for by public investing brokerage services by open to the public investing inc member finra and sipc advisory services by public advisors llc sec registered advisor generated assets is an interactive analysis tool output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.

39:24Sarah Jane Ho:Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skincare simple, and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types, and it's designed to work as a complete skincare system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth, and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's Full Regiment, which contains all five of her best-selling products, including the amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum.

39:58Sarah Jane Ho:This next-generation serum has the power of Melonleaf Stem Cell technology. It's Melonleaf Stem Cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five-star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the amazing Meaningful Beauty System for just$49.95. That includes our introductory five-piece system, free gifts, free shipping, and a 60-day money-back guarantee. All of that available at MeaningfulBeauty.com. You see it instantly.

40:29Elaine Swann:It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship and signature touches inspired by a Mountain West heritage. Distinctive styles created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape, feel-good fits offering ease of movement, and thoughtful details to elevate your look. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit ColdwaterCreek.com.

40:51Sarah Jane Ho:Shop the new spring collection at 20 % off$75 or more with code IHEART20.

41:02Sarah Jane Ho:I'm going to say something that the podcast guests are going to laugh at because like, it's embarrassing that I even know this, but Justin Bieber and Hailey Bieber posted something that I thought was so beautiful. They had a framed list of the rules of their house. Oh, and I'm like paraphrasing. Thank you. But it's like the 10, almost like their commandments. Okay. It's we are kind, we, whatever it is in our family. And Elaine, I'm kind of hearing from you that like, while we're out in the world, we have to subscribe to the etiquette in the world and in that culture. But in our home, we can make our own doctrine.

41:39You can.

41:40Danielle:And that's what's going to help your marriage thrive, your family strive, all of the above. And so in your family unit, figure out what works best for you. One thing I want to say, and more importantly than anything, as far as etiquette is concerned, it's not something that you turn on and off where, oh, when I go into this space, I'm going to behave this way. It should be something that's innate. You should just always be thinking, how can I make sure that when people leave my presence, How did I make them feel? Whether you're at home, at work, at the grocery store, at the movie theater, if we look at things from that perspective, they were not kind of code switching and turning off and on.

42:19Danielle:Because I definitely don't believe in that. So, for example, in my house, my husband and I just we did a couple's podcast together. And someone asked, well, how does it feel living with her? It seemed like she's, you know, my husband says, you know what? Because he's a broadcaster. He goes, no, actually, I love it. I love the way my wife serves everything and she puts everything out together. I eat with linen napkins all the time. You know, like he enjoys this sort of thing. That's an art thing. So I'm not one way outside in a different way at home. I just like these things because my first chore growing up was to set the table.

42:51Danielle:Oh, that was great. My mom had me setting the table and that was a thing. And I learned everything from my mom. Everything in terms of hosting and treating people and so forth. So I took all that into my marriage and he likes it.

43:03Sarah Jane Ho:You know what? I think it's challenging in today's society to say the mom is the center of the house because there's a lot of conversation, rightly so, about parenthood being split equally at home. But in practicality, at least the way I grew up, like the mom really set the tone and expectations. Maybe fathers are doing that more so nowadays.

43:25Danielle:I think the woman absolutely sets the tone for the home? I believe so. I think energy that we have as women, we set the tone. The household moves through us and you have the power to make your home something that is inviting, that is pleasant to come to, that is warm and memorable and so forth, or to make it somewhere where the man is sitting outside in the driveway thinking, oh gosh, okay, let me get it together and try to get it. And thinking that he's going to go into this environment that's not pleasant. I think the woman does. And we don't even have to say anything. And the tone in the household could shift.

44:03Danielle:I believe that.

44:04Elaine Swann:There's a Chinese saying from Confucius days. It's a rule. It says the husband is external and the wife is internal. And it's just a very clear directive. My dad even told me, he said, don't bother your husband about that because business affairs are external and you just focus on, you know, your internal.

44:18Sarah Jane Ho:But you have a lot of external business affairs.

44:21Elaine Swann:Yeah, but it's different when it's related to the home and family.

44:23Danielle:Right. I think what you're thinking about is, does he help do things and do stuff? That's one thing. But in terms of the tone of the home, the spirit of the home, when there's a man leading the home, yeah, he leads the home, but she's the one that's going to make that home shift or not. If the woman is not in a good mood, she doesn't even have to say anything, but the tone that she has, the energy that she has is going to set the tone. And it's nothing to do with whether or not I used to help me to wash dishes and what happened.

44:52Sarah Jane Ho:What do you think about people pleasing and etiquette? What's the line? I think be yourself. That's it. I'm going to be honest sometimes. What I really want to say and what I think someone deserves is not the proper thing to say.

45:06Danielle:But here's the thing. And I think this is where it's important for people to recognize that you can say anything to anybody. It's just how you say it, what you say, when you say it, where you say it. So if someone is not being so nice and you need to call them to the carpet, you can do that. There's no etiquette thing that says that you cannot set boundaries for yourself, that you cannot call people out, that you cannot, you know, tell people when they've gone too far or tell them, no, I'd rather not talk about that. Or that's not something I'd like to talk about. That's something that's personal between me and my husband.

45:38Danielle:And I'd rather not share it with you. So you can do that to anybody. You don't have to set it off and test people out, but you can do it. People think that polite equals pushover. And so that you have to be polite and you have to be demure and etiquette means you can't say anything or you can't hurt anyone's feelings. Heck no. If someone steps out of line, correct them. You can do it a nice way.

45:58Sarah Jane Ho:I think there's like a modern etiquette thing here that you two are changing. Because there is the idea of polite and pushover is a false equivalent.

46:08Elaine Swann:One thing that happened to me recently, and it's something that I realized, again, it's me being 40 plus that I realized, is I asked a friend to show up for me. And this friend was unable to just for this incident. And I understood why this friend wasn't able to. And the old me, because being raised in a very strict Chinese household, you're almost conditioned to people, please. And the old me would have said something like, oh, that's OK. Don't worry about it. But then the 40-year-old me was like, you know what? I understand why this friend can't show up for me in that way. And I understand that's OK.

46:40Elaine Swann:But I feel sad. And I'm going to tell this friend that I feel sad. And that's OK. And so I wrote back and I said, that makes me sad. And so honoring my own feelings was really important to me, which is something I didn't do before. Because before my younger self, I was so eager to please and make everybody think, oh, it's okay. But hey, that can be okay. But I can also express that I'm not okay.

47:01Danielle:That's right. In my book, I talk about receiving an apology. When someone apologizes to you, let them. Don't interrupt. Do not tell them it's okay because it's likely not. They're apologizing for something. So allow the person to speak and simply say, thank you, I appreciate your apology. Don't tell people it's okay when they do bad stuff to you.

47:21Sarah Jane Ho:Okay, smiling at strangers. Sarah Jane, I read that you say that the one etiquette rule that you wish everyone knew was smile reflexively. All of the pieces of advice that you could offer, why is that so important to you?

47:34Elaine Swann:I also say do that, especially within your community. Your new community can be your school or your office or the coffee shop you go to on a regular basis or your neighbors. I say the one place you should not do it is on the subway.

47:44Sarah Jane Ho:I'm going to say I'm a really smiley person. And it's gotten me in trouble. Men take it the wrong way sometimes.

47:49Elaine Swann:They do. But hey, if somebody thinks you like them, that can only make them like you, right?

47:54Sarah Jane Ho:Sometimes you don't want them to like you.

47:58Elaine Swann:Yeah, I think smiling is just such an easy way to feed positive energy. And when you smile, some people will smile back. It'll bring joy to others. It'll bring joy back to you. So it's just the easiest free thing you can do. make your life better. Oh, I love that. Yes.

48:13Sarah Jane Ho:Is there one that lives in your heart in that way? Oh my gosh.

48:16Danielle:I would say, yeah, definitely smiling. Here's the thing I would say, and I think this goes hand in hand, is to then go beyond that smile and say hello. A simple hello. When you're traveling and you get in the elevator and you're going up the elevator, down the elevator, a hello, a good morning, greet somebody. And here's why. Because of the divisiveness that we're experiencing in our country right now, some individuals may be from one part of the country and you may live in another, and they may not ever really come in contact with someone like you. But that one moment in the elevator, when you look at them and say hello or good morning or what have you, can shift their thought process in terms of what they've been told about who you are as an individual or a race or a group or a community and so forth.

49:01Danielle:And so I would say hello.

49:02Sarah Jane Ho:I love that one so much. As a Midwesterner, we are expected to do that. And a thought that comes naturally. So well-mannered, yeah.

49:09Elaine Swann:My Midwestern friends are all solid. They're solid people and they're really well-mannered.

49:14Sarah Jane Ho:I agree we're solid. Thank you for saying that. I think that a comment I've gotten often is that people will tell me that I'm worn. When I take Sarah Jane's thought process of thinking about how I'm thinking, the reason I think that is, is because I acknowledge someone as a human being. It's so simple. It's just saying like, I see you. You matter. It's just a quick hello. Like when you're at a party, I think people are so nervous to say hello because they don't want to be the first one. Yeah. And the simple, hey, nice to see you. How are you?

49:43Danielle:I have this thing where I talk about the 10, 5. If someone's 10 feet away from you and you happen to make eye contact, you can just smile. But if they're within 5 feet, then that's when you should speak. And you make eye contact. But when people get in the elevator, they're trying not to make eye contact. So that would be a pullman. But I think it's so important to our society today.

49:59Sarah Jane Ho:If you see someone in an elevator or in a space and they don't look like they want to acknowledge you, would you recommend that we still acknowledge them? Absolutely.

50:07Danielle:Yeah, absolutely. Because sometimes you never know. Sometimes they're shy. Yeah, they may be shy. Sometimes people are internalizing whatever's happening in their life. They could be experiencing something detrimental and your hello could be just the thing that's needed in that moment to lift their spirits.

50:21Sarah Jane Ho:I was thinking about first impressions and I read that word judged in under two minutes and it takes eight good moments to recover from a battle. That is a big discrepancy. What's the one thing people should never get wrong in a first impression?

50:36Elaine Swann:There are lots of things you can get wrong. Yeah. From the way you dress. To not smiling. Oh yeah. That's one of my pet peeves. When let's say I'm meeting someone for the first time and I say my name, I'm Sarah Jane Ho and the other person goes, I'm Sarah Jane.

50:49Danielle:There's so many things that both come along. So get it right. Buy our books, read stuff, and make a good impression.

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54:22Sarah Jane Ho:Is there an etiquette rule that you wish more people knew or followed here in America?

54:28Elaine Swann:I have one I see this so often and it's not just the States. It's really the whole world. When hosts are organizing an event and they don't introduce guests to each other, it sounds so easy, but actually think of the last get together you went to. A lot of people don't do it. A lot of hosts will greet their guests. They had their guests and then they'll greet the next guest. And then they'll leave that last guest just kind of hanging. And for a supremely confident guest, they'll be fine. But most people are not supremely confident. So anytime you organize an event, whether it's a business cocktail or reception or a birthday, I will at least introduce a new guest to three to four other guests and introduce them, not just saying their name, but saying where they're from or an interesting factoid about them where they can immediately strike up a conversation.

55:11Elaine Swann:And then I move on to take care of the next guest.

55:14Sarah Jane Ho:I interviewed a wedding planner, like a very well-known one who said that one of her rules is similar. And she said, people will feel connected if you go out of your way to say, thank you for coming. I was really wanting to introduce you to this person. Remind me if I don't do it right away, you know, just to know that they've been thought of. Yeah.

55:32Danielle:Well, since we're talking about kind of the hosting environment, I think one thing that folks should really know is if you are invited to someone's home and the evening or afternoon or what have you is over, and oftentimes people will offer to help clean up or what have you. If the host says no, thank you, then keep your hands off their stuff. and out of the kitchen and stay there. I think people really need to know that because I have so many folks who will say, no, my family, we have to help and so forth. But the thing about it for a host, it gives us so much joy to see our guests enjoying themselves, kicking back, relaxing, and not in the kitchen doing things.

56:09Danielle:And of course, many hosts, they have a certain way that they like things. So when someone tells you no, mind your business.

56:16Sarah Jane Ho:What's an outdated rule?

56:18Danielle:Outdated rule, kind of what we were talking about as far as gender is concerned. One thing, you have to wait for the man to extend his hand first for the lady shakes hands. Another thing that's outdated is when a woman announces her wedding or engagement, yesteryear, many years ago, you should not tell her congratulations. They would say, tell them best wishes instead, because congratulations is almost like she caught the man. She did something, but that's something that's outdated. You should congratulate the man. Yeah. So, congratulate the man and not the woman.

56:49Elaine Swann:I would say handwritten thank you notes. It's lovely if you can do it, but you don't have to do any more. An email or a text is just as effective. You know, a thoughtful email or a text to say, oh, the birthday gift you gave me was so thoughtful. Then say maybe like why you've got a slow pull or how you can use it. That's perfectly fine.

57:07Danielle:It's a good thing. And yes, the handwritten note is going to step up. Icing on the cake. Yeah, it's the icing on the cake now. It's the thing, especially if you mail it. If you get something in the mail, 100 % the email might get pushed down. The text message might get pushed down. I would say definitely the important thank yous. And when you have a very close relationship with a person and congratulatory notes and so forth, try not to connect with that on social media. And the reason why is because if there's a lot of them, it gets pushed down. And so your best girlfriend, she may miss your congratulations.

57:43Danielle:So send that text message or write an email, something like that. So that way she gets it.

57:48Sarah Jane Ho:I'm thinking about when you said that my grandmother is 90 and she will send a thank you note for a thank you note. Like there are so many steps and exchanges. You're right. It is outdated. Okay. What's the right way to handle a disagreement at a family dinner table?

58:04Elaine Swann:I like to make a joke out of it. So I'll be like, okay, boys, take the soft line. And then what I do is I immediately change a topic without skipping a beat. I'll be like, guys, we got the turkey from this, you know, posture fed organic farm. What do you think of it? Or maybe ask someone else who's not involved in open question, right? But they require several sentences to answer. So it's so seamless. Like you kind of checked them, but then immediately just change the conversation and nobody even

58:31Danielle:noticed. Yeah. I mentioned that in my book as one of the prep things to do as a host is start thinking in your mind, what can I talk about with the folks who are coming? Okay, so I know Aunt Susan, she went here, so I can ask her about her vacation. And this and that, so you have a nice little treasure trope of things so that this way, if you need to shift the conversation, you can do so easily.

58:50Sarah Jane Ho:When I was growing up, my parents would be in the front seat. My brother and I were in the back. And my mom would always say, okay, what are our prompts tonight? People could say it's premeditated, but I actually love it.

59:00Elaine Swann:It's thoughtful. It's on your radar. So cute.

59:03Sarah Jane Ho:Yeah, so like I always think about that. Okay, tipping. When it comes to tipping in 2026, is 20 % still the standard?

59:10Danielle:For dining out, it says I received good service.

59:14Elaine Swann:It's interesting because in Asia, we don't tip. And in China, it's considered offensive to tip. It's like a loss of face. And then I remember when I was 14 years old, came over here from boarding school. I took a taxi. I didn't give the extra 20 % tip and I got yelled at by the taxi driver. That's rude. You got your money. No, because I like to go native and I understand tipping is very important in US culture. I just automatically give 20 % on top of anything, whether it's a meal. You know, now the big controversy is about if I'm getting my coffee, right? And it's not even dining in, I'm taking it to go.

59:42Elaine Swann:And the little machine pops up and it says 20%, 25%, 30%. That is getting people annoyed. And so for me, you know, when that first happened, I came back to the States a year ago and I was like, I was shocked. I was like, what? Like, it's getting to this level now. Can you just pay your people better? Which is what people do in Asia. In Asia, the minimum base is just higher. So people get better taken care of. But I mostly just give it now, mostly because not actually even from an etiquette perspective, but from like an energy perspective, I just feel that if I have the mindset of abundance and it comes back.

1:00:13Danielle:Right. Which is good. And I think that's a good way to look at it from that perspective. But that tipping at the counter, like you said, so here's the thing, right? If you're standing and you're receiving, you're not required to tip in that instance. you can. Maybe you had just a really pleasant exchange with the person, or again, you're giving to receive or what have you. Maybe you have a large order, or it's the same person, and they remember you're working that way. You're just not required. So that person who says, golly, I just want to get my sandwich because I saved my money on a budget, and I'm getting my hoagie, and this is all I've got.

1:00:46Danielle:I don't want people to feel compelled to tip in that instance. When you're sitting here in the US, the tip is required because the servers are not getting paid a full wage. Whereas the person standing behind the counter, they are earning an hourly wage. And what has happened to the owners of these shops, they are... They keep the tips sometimes. Right. Or they're saying to their staff, this is a nice perk. You get tips. No, pay them better. You're putting that on the backs of the consumers. And guess who else is making money? The company that has the mission. The transaction, the more they make.

1:01:16Danielle:So everybody's winning except for the consumer. So if you're standing, you're not required to do so. It's gracious to do so. It's wonderful to do so, but don't do it because you feel society pressure, right? Right. I think there's a proverb that talks about giving cheerfully. It's when you give to get to be a cheerful giver.

1:01:33Elaine Swann:And the people, the problem is that with the fast casual stuff, people are feeling resentful now. Yeah. And they shouldn't feel obligated that way. They should.

1:01:39Danielle:I'm on a soapbox with that. Say, don't feel obligated. Be cheerful when you give.

1:01:43Sarah Jane Ho:It makes me so uncomfortable. I would rather them raise the price of my coffee. Yeah. Not have, Like, I don't want to deal with that. Yeah. Yeah. It's awkward.

1:01:52Danielle:I think it's awkward because you feel pressure. You're wondering if people see. And then if you say no tip, then you think, well, the person's now going to think that I'm cheap or I don't want to help them or what have you. But you don't have to. Okay. You just have to want to.

1:02:05Sarah Jane Ho:Dropping by a friend's house unannounced. How do you feel about that?

1:02:09Danielle:Depends on how good of a friend you are, right? Okay. And it depends on the circumstance too. Yeah. Death in the family, new baby, you know, they're not feeling so well. haven't heard from them, checking in on them to make sure they're okay. You know, they say, check on your strong friends. They might be going through something.

1:02:24Sarah Jane Ho:I love a coffin. I find it so neighborly. Yeah.

1:02:27Danielle:So it depends. Yeah. Not everyone likes it. Yeah. Not everyone likes it, but listen, like that whole check on your strong friends thing. It's good. You know, check on your friends. You don't hear from someone for some time. You haven't seen them and so forth. Check on them.

1:02:41Sarah Jane Ho:How do you address body odor or bad breath without humiliating somebody.

1:02:46Danielle:Tell them privately.

1:02:47Elaine Swann:So what I do, and I've written about this in my book, is I'll be like, oh, is that my view or yours? And then I'll say, oh, you know what? I've tried this great spray. It works so well. And it's changed the life of me and a lot of my other friends. So it doesn't make it seem like they're singled out.

1:03:03Sarah Jane Ho:That's really nice. I like that. You put it on yourself. How do you gracefully end a friendship? I'm having to do that. Okay. Will you play it out with me? But I'd love to know both of your, and I know it's a longer conversation, but what text would you send? How would you do it?

1:03:17Danielle:I've had to do that. And in one instance, I just began to withdraw. That's the easiest one. I just began to withdraw. Slower response time. Say you're busy. And not the hangout, no thank you. And the invites were no longer.

1:03:35Sarah Jane Ho:So you think withdraw is a good one?

1:03:37Elaine Swann:Yeah, withdraw is the easiest one. because not everybody deserves an explanation. Not everybody needs to hear why. I mean, unless it's, you know, your best friend or, I mean, I once broke up with a boyfriend over text, but his ex-wife divorced him by email and cc'd his mother. I mean, I think if somebody really does something to upset you and that means that you really care about them, right? Because they're a very close friend and they did something, then that deserves a conversation. And maybe you say, I'm not ready to speak to you right now. I'll let you know when I am. I've used that and that's also been done on me.

1:04:07Elaine Swann:But that's like, you know, your top 0.001 % of your best friend. Otherwise, I do say that, Zelane, I withdraw. You just begin to withdraw.

1:04:14Danielle:Because typically in relationships, especially when you're close, the person will begin to recognize that. Now, if they come to you and they say, okay, I've noticed you had a call. We're going to get out together. Then this is when you would have to say something to the back of, to say, you know, I am moving in a different direction. Or at this point in time, I just don't see us continuing our relationship the blazing path. So I'm going to take a step back. That's nice.

1:04:38Sarah Jane Ho:That's actually kind of cools the blow a little bit. Is it bad manners, poor manners, I should say, to talk about money? Or is it worse to pretend it doesn't exist?

1:04:49Danielle:I think everything is contextual, you know. Let's say, for example, one thing I can say in the entertainment industry, I have friends who will talk and say, here's how much I'm getting paid for this because I want you to go in and fight for what you're supposed to have, right? Yeah. And so you're finding that in the entertainment industry, you're finding that in certain industries. And so that's something that is acceptable. But you definitely don't want to walk into somebody's house and say, good, great. This is great. How much did you get for this one? You know, so that is something.

1:05:16Elaine Swann:Here's a funny thing. In China, friends will come, how much does rent cost? And it's not considered bad manners. Because they're like, well, if I want, I can go find a broker and find out how much it costs anyway. So it's public information. They're like, oh, my God, I love that bag. Wait, how much was that? Also because China went through this period of communism where everything was very transparent and everybody knew the price of everything and everybody had the same thing. So it is, again, contextual, like Elaine said, and it's just funny culturally. OK, I have six rapid fire questions.

1:05:46Sarah Jane Ho:Ready?

1:05:49Sarah Jane Ho:OK, what's the most common social misread that people make in 2026? How many minutes late is fashionably late?

1:05:59Elaine Swann:Fashionably, so that I am still acceptable within 10 minutes. I agree.

1:06:04Sarah Jane Ho:Worst etiquette sin, interrupting or oversharing?

1:06:07Elaine Swann:Both.

1:06:08Danielle:I mean, it's hard to do. Yeah, so that's a tough one. The oversharing could leave an indelible mark on someone. Yes. So maybe that one.

1:06:17Sarah Jane Ho:The smallest thing someone can do to make them instantly classy.

1:06:21Danielle:Be kind. Yeah.

1:06:23Sarah Jane Ho:The biggest sign that someone was raised well.

1:06:25Danielle:The way they treat others.

1:06:26Sarah Jane Ho:A book that changed your life, something you think everybody should be.

1:06:29Danielle:Elaine Swan's book of modern etiquette.

1:06:32Sarah Jane Ho:You can't choose the one you wrote, girl.

1:06:34Danielle:Okay, I can't choose my own book.

1:06:35Elaine Swann:Manifest Now by Idil Ahmed.

1:06:38Danielle:Oh, Safe People. Yeah, there's a book called Safe People. Can't think of that author right now, but Safe People changed my life. And they helped me put boundaries there.

1:06:46Sarah Jane Ho:What's something that every woman should try once? Whatever first came to your mind. Mile high club. I wasn't expecting that out of you. Oh my God. Yeah, definitely. You are married to a rocker. Okay. No, right?

1:06:57Danielle:Do it somewhere that is different. Yeah. I like the A-ha club. Been there, done that.

1:07:03Sarah Jane Ho:You could teach the world one etiquette principle that would make life easier for them. Not your favorite, not the best, but would make their lives easier. What would it be?

1:07:12Danielle:Think before you speak. That'd make life so much easier. Just give it a beat.

1:07:16Sarah Jane Ho:Yeah.

1:07:16Danielle:And then speak.

1:07:17Elaine Swann:I would say live moment to moment. Because sometimes if you think too far ahead, you get into your head. As opposed to being in your body. And I think when you stay moment to moment, you're in your body and your intuition and you're more present. That's beautiful. It's good.

1:07:29Sarah Jane Ho:Do each of you have a favorite question when you're greeting strangers and icebreaker that you go to?

1:07:34Danielle:I will ask, and I share this in my book. You can ask folks, how did you learn about the event? How do you know the person? How do you know the host? Yeah.

1:07:42Sarah Jane Ho:I do unhitched ones. I'll do like, if you were to give a TED Talk in 10 minutes, what would you give it on?

1:07:48Elaine Swann:Wow. That's one of your first questions. Yeah.

1:07:50Sarah Jane Ho:Okay. The smartest decision that you've ever made.

1:07:52Elaine Swann:Marry my husband. Gosh, it's hard to say. I feel that even my poor decisions were my smartest ones because I learned the most from them. I don't like my poor decisions. I wish they would go away, but I did learn from them. Yeah, and you learn more about yourself. Yeah.

1:08:05Sarah Jane Ho:You do me a favor and grab the card game and pick a card, any card. It's like tarot, so whichever one calls you. And then we'll pass it to Sarah Jane. She'll pick one. Start question everything. Okay.

1:08:15Danielle:Fun. I'm ready.

1:08:17Sarah Jane Ho:Okay. Elaine, which one did you get?

1:08:18Danielle:What is your defining characteristic? probably my kindness towards others. That's something that I'm certain resonates with most people. They say, oh, she's so nice.

1:08:28Elaine Swann:Mine is what should be required reading for every human. I say anything spiritual, anything that elevates your soul should be required reading for every human.

1:08:37Sarah Jane Ho:Whatever you're drawn to.

1:08:43Sarah Jane Ho:Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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1:10:18Sarah Jane Ho:Visit lifelock.com slash iHeart. Terms apply. Janice Torres here.

1:10:24Elaine Swann:And I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

1:10:32Sarah Jane Ho:We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

1:10:36Danielle:The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing.

1:10:42Sarah Jane Ho:So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change.

1:10:44Elaine Swann:So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:11:14Danielle:The Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit wellsfargo.com slash active cash. Terms apply.

1:11:21Sarah Jane Ho:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.