What Happens When You Out-Earn Your Partner? with Tori Dunlap

23:06Tori Dunlap:And that's a good skill. But let's say we cut everything joyful out of our life, right? Let's say we just pay our rent or pay our mortgage, buy our groceries, nothing else, right? There's a finite amount that you can cut. Your earning potential, though, is in theory limitless. And it is one of the many ways that we teach boys or men different money stories than we teach women or girls. We teach girls to save and to be frugal and to, yeah, just stick to a budget. And we teach men compound interest and investing and bonuses and how you grow your money. And it's one of, I think, the most damaging things that ends up happening.

23:47What do you remember your parents saying? Like, are there money phrases that you remember in your house?

23:52Tori Dunlap:That's a good question. I'm trying to remember. My dad was like, sat me down in college and taught me investing. Oh, cool. That was like a lot of, you know, you got it. I mean, I think that probably the big one was like you, if you want something, you save for it. Like, absolutely. And then we were starting to have conversations when I was in high school about like credit card and how to use a credit card responsibly. Because my parents don't even own a debit card. Like they don't have a debit card. They don't use one. They've never used one. I do the same thing. My debit card's like locked in a drawer somewhere.

24:21Tori Dunlap:And we just use our credit cards like debit cards. But from, again, early age, it was like, you want something, you got to save for it. Absolutely. Did you ever hear them say save for a rainy day? Probably some version of that. Yeah. The emergency fund, like, you need to save in case something happens. Definitely. Yeah. And I think also when it came time to pay for college, I've been very open that they had a college fund saved for me. But I was also, like, working three jobs and, you know, working summers. And it was very much a collaborative process. And I remember, you know, before every semester, it was family conference to try to figure out, okay, how are we going to pay for this semester?

24:58Tori Dunlap:It wasn't like, oh, how are you going to pay for it? Or, you know, here's what it was literally like, here's how much we have saved. Here's how far that goes. What are you going to contribute then? So that was like a collaborative conversation. That was probably very memorable. It was. And again, I think when you're 19, you don't fucking know. You like take it for granted and it's like whatever. But having that conversation and having those repeated conversations, one, made me realize just how goddamn expensive college is. Because I think, yeah, when you're 18, 19, you don't really have a concept of money.

25:30Tori Dunlap:And you're just like, oh, yeah,$50 ,000, fine. $60 ,000, whatever. and then once you're really sitting down and I think analyzing how much things cost or did you ever see um like your cost per class did you ever see that no oh I don't know some paperwork I saw at some point told me like how much I was paying per class yeah and I was like oh I'm never skipping class again that will really never I also what I remember is I would buy books that were like it was and I would buy used books always but it was like twenty five hundred dollars maybe for books for the semester and then you return them at the end for buyback and they're like this one's worth nothing this one's worth nothing so my mom this is classic my mrs dunlap classic my mother we would buy them like cheap used on amazon and then she would go sell them she'd turn them yes at the end of the year yep but they're not worth as much it's crazy it is wild

26:26this is matt rogers from lost culture east that's with matt rogers and bowen yang this is bowen yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try on new food and suddenly it's like, wait. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Kewpie mayo. It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake. Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Kewpie only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor.

27:00It's smoother, deeper, and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers. Some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never tried it? Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Cupi, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Nothing compares to the anticipation of something new. A new start, a new year, a new home, or a new car. When it's time to get a new car, where do you start?

27:35Car shopping can honestly be a little overwhelming, but it should be fun. Buying your next car should be exciting, and it can be, if you remember one thing, cars.com. Cars.com has the tools and expert advice to help you figure out what vehicle is right for you. Their advanced search filters allow you to explore two million new and used cars so that you can find the perfect car. The site is so easy to use. Looking for an electric vehicle with a third row and leather seats for easy cleanup? Cars.com has you covered. A variety of tools and badges are used to help shoppers understand the price of a vehicle and find the best deal.

28:13And every review is written by a real person, reflecting a real life experience. So don't take any chances. Do car shopping the easy way. Start your search with Cars.com. Where to next? Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Well, now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for$15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made$15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.

28:47Tori Dunlap:Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem? Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. That's software overload. Odoo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR. Fully integrated, easy to use, and built to grow with your business.

29:22Thousands have already made the switch. Why not you? Try Odoo for free at O-D-O-O dot com. That's Odoo dot com.

29:54you'll pay for life, meaning you're set to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plan. While the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you, Boost Mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life. Imagine something in your budget actually staying the same. You'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s and when you're posting mirror selfies in retirement. Some things never change. Switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up, only at Boost Mobile. After 30 gigabytes customers may experience slower speeds customers will pay 25 a month as long as they remain active on a boost unlimited plan have your feelings or opinions about money changed as you've gotten older because i can say that as your friend i've seen your life change over the past few years, your partner and you bought a house.

30:51Have you like kind of re-upped any of your thoughts or opinions?

30:56Tori Dunlap:I think as I've gotten richer, I get more pissed off at really rich people. Interesting. What do you mean? So it was not what I was expecting. The more money I have, the more responsibility I feel to do good things with that money. And the more then that it pisses me off that we have 50 individuals who hold 99.8 99.9 percent of the world's wealth and seem to only just be committed to making more money and at that point like what is the point there is no point and i think this is why we need more women millionaires i mean i just think women are so much more generous. We're so much more community oriented.

31:48Tori Dunlap:We just care and feel that personal responsibility. Like I feel a personal responsibility to do good with the money I have. And I especially think we have a responsibility as women right now to actually get rich and to have money because we are the ones who are going to do good shit with it. There are some men that are doing good things. It's not just. Absolutely. Of course. But this is I'm doing, you know, men are trash not all men of course but it's like it it is most of the world's wealth to not be like men are trash i know but most of the wealth is held by men and is held by a few men but i think that that is that is what we're fighting against as women is again we're told like do not want money that's gauche do not be greedy do not pursue money like that's changed at all it's changing actively definitely because again i think we're seeing money like you options and choices and all of those things.

32:41Tori Dunlap:But at this moment where there's so much inequality and there's so many things that women do so, like we need more women to have the funds and the money to be able to support the kind of causes they need. So I think my life has dramatically changed in the past five years. Yeah. And what went into your decision to buy your house? Yeah. Honestly, it was an emotional decision. And that's, I think, the fun part when you start having enough money to make whatever decision you want is it actually stops being a financial decision. Like it's not about like running the numbers and like, is this a smart investment?

33:19Tori Dunlap:It's like, actually, I don't care. It's a smart emotional investment for me. So I got to the point where I was like, actually, I do want to be a homeowner. Like I'd been dating my partner for a while. I felt very settled in Seattle. And I was like, yeah, actually, I do kind of want a project. And I do want a place where I'm not getting like my landlord telling me, oh, we're selling the place you got to leave. Like I wanted that stability. And I also just turned 30. And I think it was part of that too, of like, okay, it feels good to do this at this point. And that is actually, I think the coolest thing is, yeah, it wasn't actually a financial decision at all.

33:54Tori Dunlap:I didn't care if it like the math made sense in terms of like, was I going to get my money back on my investment? It's just like, no, like I wanted this house. I bought it. Because I've seen a lot of rhetoric online in the past year where they're saying buying a house is an emotional decision at this point. It's really not a smart financial decision at this point. Can you explain? I still don't get it. It's more the fact that mortgages and the cost of owning a home is now more expensive than renting for like the first time. But you're still paying into something. And if you're renting, you're throwing the money away, so to speak.

34:27Tori Dunlap:So I don't believe that. I mean, I was infamously, we did multiple, you know, I was the multimillionaire who rents. There were multiple articles written about this because I, yeah, even when I could buy a house, I decided not to for years and years. And the reason I did that is I don't think renting is throwaway money because you are getting the convenience of being a renter. You and I have a very busy life where we're traveling all over, we're doing things, especially my late 20s. I was in the midst of writing a book. I was in the midst of promoting that book. I was traveling all over. My head was in, how do I build this business?

35:02Tori Dunlap:My head was not in go garden and go paint and worry about your boiler breaking. Is that a thing? Boiler breaking? Sure. Sure. I'm a homeowner. I'm really good at this. So I think that you pay for the convenient bursting, flooding. We're doing great. I think that that was the flexibility that was offered to me is I got to focus somewhere else. I also didn't have to worry. Again, something breaks. It's like I'm calling somebody to handle that. That's not my problem. And if we look especially at mortgage rates like right now, even when I bought my home, you know, about half a year ago, that was like at 7 percent.

35:37Tori Dunlap:Like that's really expensive. I made a lot more money putting the money I did have in the stock market than I did tying it up in a mortgage or even paying cash for a house. And we're talking about this as if it's a decision. Most people don't have the decision. Oh, should I rent? Should I buy? It is you are because you cannot afford a house in any major city in the United States at this point. Like, I live in Seattle, you live in LA, the average home price in Seattle, which is, you know, most people don't consider Seattle an expensive city,$950 ,000. Wild. Crazy. So you think it's a myth that renting is throwing your money away?

36:12Tori Dunlap:I agree. I think it's a myth. And I also think it does not actually talk about the systemic issues at play here, which is like, it's not really a choice for people at this point. and there's a lot of benefit to renting you get to focus your energy you get to do different things with your money your money isn't tied up in the same way so i think most money content assumes beginners and actually doesn't solve for women who are super ambitious or have complex lives like it'll break down at that point when women start to out earn their partners their parents or their peer group do you see that yeah yeah yeah i have told you this privately every man I've ever been on a date with I out earn and I fucking love it it's so great but it does lead to like it does lead to like issues and problems and I've been with my now partner for it's four years Danielle which is crazy yeah and one of the things that we have had to navigate is we make very different incomes like very different incomes and actually he just got a new job which is very exciting and is making more money than he's ever made.

37:20And it's still, it's not comparable.

37:23Tori Dunlap:So you have to have a lot more conversations. Like it is a lot more work, quite frankly, but it's worth doing. But I think you do get to a point where as women uniquely, when we start doing better, we feel shame. Like if we feel like we're doing poorly with money, we're in debt, we can't save, we can't get ahead of everything. We feel bad about that, right we feel shame we feel guilt on the other side like when men do great there's no shame there's no guilt it's like yeah I deserve this right and women do not feel that way I feel that way good so do I I do not so do I I'm like I worked so hard I had so much shame for not making money literally is the Barbie movie where she gets the award and she's like I deserve this I have worked hard thank you no but as a whole and we've done research on this I have conversations with our 5 million women in our community, they're like, I feel like I can't go out to eat with my friends anymore because they know how much money I make.

38:20Tori Dunlap:And are they going to expect me to foot the bill every single time? And like, I'm going to sometimes, or if I get invited on a bachelorette trip and I go, yeah, I don't want to go and spend 10 days. In Turks and Caicos. Yes. Yes, I can't afford it, but maybe I don't want to. Right. And then that is there that kind of conversation. So I do feel like you're right that most of the money advice is for beginners. And actively, what we're trying to do is actually keep doing that advice because it is important, but even shift her first under K a little bit to talk about, okay, what does happen when you start making more money?

38:53Tori Dunlap:What does happen when you're making actually a decent salary? And I'm talking like, you know, not just 100K, 152, 253. How do you actually have something to show for it? Because that's the thing that really breaks my heart. I may have told you this story at like dinner or something, but I was at an event a couple of years ago. And I remember it was like one of my first, like, we're going to have a dinner and we're all going to gather. And I have my little name on the name card, you know? And I was looking around at this table and it was a lot of like fashion influencers, bloggers, like women who I knew just based on their following and the numbers I could do in my head.

39:29Tori Dunlap:They were making good money. 300K minimum, probably a million, two, three, some of these at this table. And I was the only like financial person there. And I remember sitting there and going, God, I hope they have something to show for it. Like, I hope they know what to do to help guarantee this money sustains them. Because businesses, Instagram, all of these things are very fickle. And we see this a lot with like professional athletes, right? Start making more money than God and you don't have the earning problem. You're doing fine. How do we make sure that you are investing it properly? How do we make sure that you are having open conversations about money in a way that actually protects you and allows you to do the things that you want to do?

40:20Do you think that you changed, like did, When you started making money, did it change the way that you would walk into a room or date or yeah? How so?

40:30Tori Dunlap:Every time I walk into a new therapist's office, I tell them there's a lot of things we're going to work on. My self-worth is not one of them. Like, I know I'm worthy. I know I'm worthy of love, opportunity, all of those things, money. So that's never been a problem for me. but I will say that the money has made me like you just can't fuck with me like I'm unfuckable with said a phrase like fuck withable unfuck withable I'm unfuck withable no but it's just I you're definitely not unfuckable no absolutely not you have self-worth absolutely not no but it's it's again if I walk into this room and this room does not respect me I don't care how much you're paying me.

41:09Tori Dunlap:I don't have to be here. Yeah. Right. And like, that is the feeling I want for every single woman on this planet. I go on a date. There were so many dates when I was actively dating. And again, I'm sure you and I have talked about this off mic, where I knew this date wasn't going well. I actually just throw down my card. And that seems counterintuitive. Like, oh, shouldn't he pay? I was like, I don't want any expectations here. I don't want to worry about it. I'm just going to throw down my card, shake your hand and never see you again. Like it's, just the best feeling. And so, yeah, I do feel like the way I approach situations has changed.

41:43Tori Dunlap:And I also think that the way I think about building relationships has changed as well. What do you mean? When you start talking about money in your relationships, you're more honest about everything else. Because I think that is one, that is the taboo. Like there are so many podcasts, you know talking about sex talking about i don't know like every other taboo topic we will talk about before we'll talk about money we will talk about sex death politics religion before we will talk about money so knowing that i can talk about money with people like you with other friends with my partner like it is very freeing and i also think it allows for a more deeper relationship that where you can also be vulnerable in other places

42:39This is Matt Rogers from Las Culture East. That's with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Las Culture East. That's with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, wait. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Kewpie mayo. It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake. Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Kewpie only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor.

43:12It's smoother, deeper, and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers. Some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never tried it? Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Kupi, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Nothing compares to the anticipation of something new. A new start, a new year, a new home, or a new car. When it's time to get a new car, where do you start?

43:47Car shopping can honestly be a little overwhelming. But it should be fun. Buying your next car should be exciting, and it can be. If you remember one thing. Cars.com. Cars.com has the tools and expert advice to help you figure out what vehicle is right for you. Their advanced search filters allow you to explore 2 million new and used cars so that you can find the perfect car. The site is so easy to use. Looking for an electric vehicle with a third row and leather seats for easy cleanup? Cars.com has you covered. A variety of tools and badges are used to help shoppers understand the price of a vehicle and find the best deal.

44:25And every review is written by a real person, reflecting a real-life experience. So don't take any chances. Do car shopping the easy way. Start your search with Cars.com. Where to next? This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem? Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. That's software overload. Odoo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, fully integrated, easy to use, and built to grow with your business.

45:04Thousands have already made the switch. Why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's odoo.com. This is Tony Ayo from The Real Report with Tony Ayo and Uncle Murda. You ever notice how everything keeps going up? Rent's going up. Streaming services are going up. Even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks salsa should cost extra. But with Boost Mobile, you and your phone bill don't have to play the will it go up soon game because Boost Mobile has an unlimited talk, text and data plan at a price that'll never go up. It's the same price you'll pay for life, meaning you're set to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plan.

45:42While the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you, Boost Mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life. Imagine something in your budget actually staying the same. You'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s and when you're posting mirror selfies in retirement. Some things never change. Switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up. Only at Boost Mobile. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay$25 a month as long as they remain active on a Boost Unlimited plan. Do we all need to be detoxing ourselves?

46:18Tori Dunlap:Before I go asking, how can I detox? I have to look inward. Okay, what am I doing? Can I identify at least three ways that my body detoxes and ways to support that? I promise if my message was more dramatic like that, I would have millions of followers and make millions of dollars. But I cannot sleep at night trying to sell someone something that their body already does naturally. We're living in a crazy world now. I think it's a lot of people fear a lack of control. And as a result of this, this is the way of them trying to make sense of the world and try to take control over their own bodies.

46:51So by actively doing something, I'm going to detoxify things, therefore I'm going to feel better, I think is absolutely one of the reasons that detoxifying has become so popular. Listen to the full episode of Health vs. Hype with the American Medical Association on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

47:20i think money changed the way i date yeah tell me more so i had this i don't know if i've told this story on the pod if i have i'm really sorry for repeating it everybody i do that all the time i'm like i've probably told this story before and i'm like nobody cares nobody's listened to every episode i don't know but i went on a date like this was like six years ago maybe and i was telling a therapist about the date and she's like Danielle let me stop you do you want to be him or do you want to fuck his and I was like I think I want to be him and she goes so why don't you like like press pause on all this and go become the person that you're like wanting to be in proximity

48:05Tori Dunlap:to and I was like it changed my whole life what did you want to be like what did he have that you wanted? I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to be a CEO. I wanted to be the one calling the shots. I wanted to build something. You wanted to control. I wanted to build something. And I knew I could. I just didn't know how. And I didn't have the skills. And I was so broke. Yeah. And I think I really stopped dating for a little while. And I realized that when I started dating again, I was way less impressed by men, which was a good thing. And I don't mean that as a dog on them. It was more that I had changed what was inside of me.

48:45Yeah. And what you wanted and what you expected. Yeah. And so I can imagine from that experience, I can imagine that building your business changed how you walk into meetings and how you, you know, and not in a, in like a way of hubris, but just. No, no, no.

49:00Tori Dunlap:And I also realized that mostly everything you can figure out everything is figure outable it really is marie folio and really like it is and it's also like um it's also okay to say i don't know yes but you know what i i i just had this the other day um because with the i'm with my card game i i'm expanding it this year and i realized i didn't know certain things and it's not set up as its own business it's like under my llc as a as a whole and I was like I don't know how to do this and then I realized every answer is in a fucking book yeah when did I when did I forget that yeah and it's all there yeah and also like indent new paragraph you are also like my intuition is never wrong and so I must be nice your intuition is never wrong either everybody listening's intuition is never wrong we just don't listen to it or we we can't hear it as much because society, everything is just drowned it out.

50:03Yeah.

50:03Tori Dunlap:It's made us question everything. The question are questions, just the, the thoughts in our head, all of that. But like my intuition is never wrong. And there were many situations, especially when I was first building the business where I was like, Oh, I'll talk to this person because they know more. And there were definitely sometimes, of course, people knew more than me. There's always people out there who know more than me, but I often had conversations with people who knew more than me on paper. And I took their advice, even though something in me was like, that's, that's not how we're going to do it.

50:32Tori Dunlap:It's not right advice for you. No. And so I know now what is actually good advice from people who know it and what is, what is not going to work. A learning I've had is that like, sometimes you are the person in the room. Sometimes you have the answer. Like you don't have to defer all the time. Yep. Have you made any money mistakes building your business? Is there anything you regret? Yes. Like what? A million. I could give you like four mistakes from last Tuesday. Tell me. I think one is not firing people quickly enough. Okay. And not hiring people quickly enough. Like those are two, probably the two biggest money mistakes that you can make because when you're a woman entrepreneur, you care very deeply and we're very good.

51:15Tori Dunlap:And I think I don't fault myself or any woman entrepreneur for this. We're very good at giving a million chances. And I now give 999 ,000 chances. Like I'm just better now at going, okay, is this working? If it's not, how do we fix it? And at what point are we saying, nope, it's not working. So I think I've gotten better at doing that for many, many years, especially when I was burned out and doing other parts of the business. I was not dialed in to see what was going on. And so it was very easy to just be like, I don't know, just realize six months later, oh, that person's not in the right role.

51:54Tori Dunlap:And they've not been in the right role this whole time. And on the flip side, making hiring decisions way too late. You and I have talked about this, right? It's like hiring is so difficult because yes, you're putting your trust in somebody and you want them to succeed and you want this to be a great working relationship. And we're, again as women really good at doing everything ourselves because like nobody can do it as well as me and also I can't I don't have the time to like relinquish control and like teach somebody else but it is like if you want to scale and grow that is how you do it absolutely so hard it's so hard you're being like evasive right now but you've been telling me you're an assistant for years this is what you mean I'm gonna throw you under the bus on the podcast I'm honest on the pod no I think I think it was actually that after the first time we met you were like do you with anybody?

52:40Tori Dunlap:And I'm like, yeah, here's 12 people. No, but it is, it's, it's so hard to do. And it also is so worth it. Yeah. But you also have to know what kind of business you want to run. If you want complete flexibility and you're good at like, I want to make as much as I was making it my corporate job, maybe a little bit more. And I want to like do what I want and work when I want and have nobody attached to me or reliant on me, then yeah, you don't want to hire. But if you want to scale your business, you have to hire. That's the only way. it's the only way to my soul tour it's hard do you think women subconsciously cap their earning potential to stay uh relatable or likable yeah yeah and that's not women's fault that's the entire society or system telling us like i'm less likable now than i've ever been like i it's true like it's just i you know you're gonna have at least one comment on youtube that's like I don't like her.

53:33Tori Dunlap:I'm like okay I'm sorry what? No I like you're gonna have a YouTube comment from somebody. I know but what was the comment? Oh I don't like her. What is that? That's the voice that I give to everybody who's a trolling. I don't like her. Oh I don't like her. I don't like her. Oh I was like what are you saying? Okay I got it. I don't like her and I'm just putting a voice on it. Got it. That's funny. No but I yeah yeah I remember your original question it was like likability yes yes no i don't i think it's so easy to be unlikable as a woman that's actually the easiest thing you can do you have dreams you have goals you have aspirations you are uh committed to making yourself feel comfortable even at the expense of other people's discomfort that's very unlikable you say no very unlikable you don't put on makeup unlikable you them too much makeup i'm like like it is the barbie monolith i've brought up barbie twice in this interview but like it is that monologue it's like yeah you're gonna somebody's gonna get pissed off and i think especially with money because we view money as worth like your self-worth is your net worth your net worth is your self-worth and i am one of the people who's trying to extract those two things and not relate them because again money's power money's options it has very little to do with like yeah what your actual worth is as a person when you started dating people how early would you talk about money with them that's a great question the problem is a public person is you google me and the problem is a public person who talks about money is that the like third auto search thing is like tori dunlap net worth right now how accurate is it not very accurate but gives you a ballpark.

55:20Tori Dunlap:With my current partner, we had a conversation the first date because the bill came. The first date? What is with all the money experts saying they have it on the first date? That's what I mean to say to you as well, who's a good friend. I don't think you need to talk about it at the first date. This is crazy. You don't need to bring it up. It will naturally come up. How did you guys talk about it? The bill came. Right? That is a financial conversation. Who's going to pay, right? And he knew what I do for work and he knew you know capital f feminists bring out our soapbox here we go and he didn't you know he was like i don't know how to navigate the situation so bill came and again we've been on one date it was great but we don't know each other super well he looks down at the bill looks up at me looks down at the bill and i can tell like he's nervous and i go hey what's up and he goes, I would really like to pay, but I don't want to offend you.

56:15Tori Dunlap:Can I pay? I was like, yeah, you can pay. Absolutely. That sounds great. That was a conversation about money. And it was also really insight into him, which was like, I want to be chivalrous, but also want to respect what you want. That was a conversation, right? And you hear, I think, especially a lot from men who are like, I'm trying to figure out like, do I hold the door open for my partner? Do I do this? I'm like, just ask some women love that some women don't love that just ask that's what he did I would really like to pay but I don't want to make you uncomfortable can I pay like that was a conversation about money okay can I be honest with you yeah because that for you I see how that would be so attractive like that is he spoke to your soul oh yeah I had a guy do that to me one time oh and ask yes if he could pay yes because he was like i know you're like a feminist maybe that's what did it because i don't think he said the word feminist it was just implied and he was like but i'd really like to pay and i was like before you said that i was gonna have let you pay but now let why don't we split it and we don't ever have to talk again so maybe maybe it felt like a challenge like i know like you're a feminist no he was being sweet oh he was okay i really like I'm struggling because I want to be so progressive and some of me loves traditional gender roles.

57:41Me too. Me too.

57:43Tori Dunlap:Before I came to this interview, I've had my makeup done and I don't get glam done a lot. And I'm very, I felt very pretty for the first time. Thank you. I was not fishing for that. I felt very good in my body. And I called my partner and my partner's like, you look good. And I was like, nope, I'm going to, I'm going to stop you right there. You can, no, no, no, no you have to give me beautiful splendid stunning gort like you have to tell me i look lovely you've never looked this amazing literally like oh my gosh and am i seeking validation from a man yep i am like of course like all these these things can be we can be both good feminists and also be like yeah i would like flowers but i would like it's actually deeper for me okay tell me more.

58:24So I realized that I'm a, I'm a giver by nature. Yeah. And when I'm dating someone, I like, I'm like, I want to do everything in my power to make your life better. That's how I feel as well. Okay. So some people are not like that. No, we're both like that. Okay. And so if I'm dating somebody who doesn't protect my giving, I know that I'm screwed down the line. Absolutely. Because I will continue to give. Yeah. Yeah. So it's almost like a bat, Like I need them to be like, no, that's not happening.

58:56Tori Dunlap:She needs them to set boundaries with you because you won't do it with yourself. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. That sounds bad. But maybe. Read you for film on your own podcast.

59:10No, but I think that's lovely. I think that's beautiful. What's the earliest red flag you now see around money when dating?

59:19Tori Dunlap:I think it's just when a man is threatened by a woman's success. and especially threatened if you're making more than he is and he discovers that like when you start talking about money because i don't think it's like you know what is your salary on the first date like that's i think ridiculous that's not how dating works yeah inevitably it will come up right you plan like a weekend away together and you're talking about like splitting costs or like is if he gets squirrely the moment he realizes that you might be more financially successful than he is that's hard that's hard to hard to work through do you think the internet's made people better or worse with money that's a really oh danielle in some ways better i get more information i think that we see a lot more diversity in the people talking about money it's not just like straight white guys it is black folks and queer folks and women like it's so cool to see that it's a lot easier to spend money a lot easier to see what everybody else is up to a lot easier to get scammed oh my god it's so easy to get scammed online like so in many ways it's positive and a lot of ways it's negative too yeah i see i see both yeah do you think that financial advice should come with a disclaimer based on personality type like i actually have so much reverence for what you do because you're able to meet people where they're at and there's so many different places.

1:00:42I don't know how you do it.

1:00:45Tori Dunlap:I think that you do have to come sometimes say this is not for this type of person. Yeah. Like again, because our audience now is so broad when we do some episodes where it's like, yeah, here's how to manage a six figure income. Here's how to manage your business when it's, you know, you're making over half a million dollars a year. Yeah. I do have to say like this will be triggering for people who are nowhere near that. we have all of this other content for you because i know that if i was in your show that would be just so frustrating you're like i can't make any i'm living paycheck to paycheck what are you doing helping the people making 500k they also do need help right that's the like people who hopefully have something to show for it versus like how do we get you out of scarcity how do we get you out of like paycheck to paycheck mode so i do think that that's really helpful almost like a trigger wording just like if this is like not everything's going to be for you and that's the personal finance is personal like we all have our own personal stuff we're working through that's well said

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1:06:19I'm giving a big speech in two months. Okay. And it's a 30 minute keynote. I've never done it before. Oh, you're going to be great. Thank you so much. I promise this has a point. Yeah. So part of it, I've been thinking about shame a lot. And I think shame is integrated into money more than almost any other emotion. Shame for having it. Shame for not having it. If shame disappeared overnight, how do you think women would behave differently with money?

1:06:49Tori Dunlap:Everything's different. Everything. Literally everything. It is, you're exactly right. It is not just like a qualitative concept. It is statistically proven that like shame is the number one thing people feel around money. And it's just like everything, right? Right. Shame is like shame is often it's not a productive emotion. I guess it's an emotion that just makes you feel bad and paralyzes you. Like even guilt, guilt, we associate with the same like guilt and shame are the same. They're not like guilt is like sometimes productive of like, oh, I feel guilty. I didn't do this. Well, guilt is saying like I did a bad thing and shame is saying I am bad.

1:07:30Tori Dunlap:Exactly. It's the identity versus like I failed at this thing versus I am a failure. And I think with money, again, is so entrenched because we all believe that we are somehow born with the good with money gene or the bad with money gene. Money is a learned skill, just like a language, just like an instrument. So, yeah, if you take shame out of it, oh, my gosh, everything changes. So I haven't told you this or anybody this, but I have my loftiest financial goal ever this year. Okay. And I want to talk about building wealth with you, which we don't have total time to get into. But my one big question for you is, what is one piece of investment advice women miss?

1:08:09Because it seems too obvious. I love this question.

1:08:13Tori Dunlap:Your investing account is not an investment. And you did ask for so obvious. There's somebody out there who's like, yeah, duh. The amount of women who do not know this. The Roth IRA, the 401k, the brokerage account, which is just a general investing account. Those are not the investments. It's not like a bank account where you put$1 ,000 in the bank account and you wipe your hands and you're done. You have to put money in, let's say, a Roth IRA, but then go choose your investments. It's like a gift card. I put$50 on a TJ Maxx gift card. I need to go buy the plants and candles and throw pillows, right?

1:08:46Tori Dunlap:It does not do anything for you unless it's invested. If you don't invest it, if you don't choose your investment, something like an index fund, maybe that is multiple stocks, if not hundreds, thousands of different companies, your money sitting in financial purgatory. It's doing nothing for you. It's literally not even like growing in normal savings account interest because it's just sitting on the sidelines waiting to be invested. And it is the number one mistake I see women make. And every time I talk about it, there's at least like a couple dozen women in my DMs going, oh, for five years, I thought I was investing.

1:09:20Tori Dunlap:My money was just sitting there because I hadn't actually done step two. wow yeah okay ready for rapid fire oh yeah okay uh simple financial habit that gives the biggest return automate your savings set up an automatic transfer from your checking account to your savings account every single paycheck best financial decision you've ever made starting my business and growing it absolutely worst taking a job for the money what's the go-to index fund to buy vti is my personal favorite we love her she's a bad bitch should friends ever loan each other money no no please no can i just i know it's rapid fire if you if you loan somebody money expect to never get it back should friends start businesses together i would say no if you want to you're not gonna you're not gonna hear me in this interview and be like oh i'm never gonna do it like you're gonna do it it doesn't matter what i say i think it's really hard i think it's really hard to do that it's risky i think it's risky and it's just like it complicates the relationship and honestly having founders generally like it's both great when you're scaling because like somebody else is in it with you it's really hard as you get going because you just have multiple you have a lot of cooks in the kitchen it's just hard uh what's something you still feel weird spending money on no matter how much you make i've only bought a first class ticket once what's a money habit that uh that you have that would surprise people who think you're ultra disciplined oh um i have been paying for um you know those little like mobile um wi-fi things yeah like a hot spot yeah yeah thank you that's the word haven't plugged it in in two years been paying every month for it i still think that's worth it i don't know where it is i don't it's in my closet somewhere i see it every time every month and i'm like i need to cancel that nope still haven't i have at &t and they have one in your phone oh yeah yeah yeah you could just do that uh okay a splurge you'll never feel guilty about um food i can spend any money on food and be really happy something you were sure wealthy people did that turned out to be so false that's a really good question the first the first thing that came to mind is like pay for designer things i have three designer pieces one of which i'm wearing today, like it did not do anything for me.

1:11:42What's an overrated way to save money?

1:11:46Tori Dunlap:Overrated? Scrimping, just like trying to find every penny. It's a lot easier to spend your time making, as Ramit Sethi says, like$10 ,000 decisions than worrying about your$10 decisions. A book you read that changed your life, something you think everybody should read. Untamed by Glennon Doyle. I think you said that last time too. Probably did. I can give you a different answer. Yeah, give me your other one. that's like my go-to always life of pie by yann martell still having to do with numbers i like that for you it is yeah 3.14 okay um what's something every woman should try once tory you can't ask this one i do every time i can't say the same answer i said last time um i'm gonna look right down at you and you say i didn't say this go to disneyland by yourself oh i'm not doing more things by yourself i'm not going by myself no you've got to go with me no but You've got to do things by yourself.

1:12:39Tori Dunlap:Go to restaurants by yourself. I really don't want to go to Disneyland. Go to travel. Go do things. You don't want to go to Disneyland, period? No. Oh. No. With you, I would go. Oh, with me. Oh, great. Okay. I was like, our entire friendships are built on a lie. It's fine. No. Do things by yourself. I think it's so important. Do not wait for somebody to do things with because you'll be waiting for the rest of your life. Well said. Okay. Grab that card deck. Yay. Pick whichever one feels right to you. Okay. I'm so excited. It's like tarot. I have these in my house and I'm really excited. Feel the vibes.

1:13:11Tori Dunlap:Okay. What's something you've done that felt super brave in the moment? I love this question from you. Do I want to tell a story on the pod? I'll tell it for you. Thank you. I'm going to see if I can get through this without crying. Okay. You know that I went through a really, really difficult breakup in 2020, 2021 that changed my entire life. And when I say difficult, people think like, oh, is it bad? it was it was like no i thought this person was the love of my life and they did such pretty makeup and i'm about to ruin it um i grieved it for years like i was unwell i was not not doing well yeah um looking back in my journals from like i was just in the thick of it because as someone who likes the story and likes to be able to say if i put this amount of work in this is what's going to happen relationships are not like that you can still you can put in all the work and it still might not happen.

1:14:04Tori Dunlap:And I also was like, if this is the love of my life and like, we're not together now, then what, what is this? Did so much work on myself, like so much work on myself, did a lot of therapy, did coaching. Um, the thing I'm most proud of is like, I didn't Google this person. I didn't look them up. Like when we had broken out, like I actually went cold Turkey and I saw him for the first time six months ago. Did I tell you this? Yeah. And all of the hopes and dreams that I had when I was in the thick of it of maybe I can see this person and it is just like la la land, you know, where I can see this person across the room and it's okay because we know that this is what was supposed to happen and there's no yearning, there's no longing.

1:14:50it's just like just love for this person um and that felt so brave to be able to do

1:14:59Tori Dunlap:and yes it was brave in the moment but i was so proud of like four or five years of really really deep work where i was just like okay this is inevitably going to happen because the universe is like that and so let's let's not worry about that let's just figure out how we're going to take care of ourselves right now. And by sitting in it and allowing myself to experience everything I felt rather than trying to like muscle through it or just like, yeah, white knuckle it. It was just like, this is going to take as long as it's going to take to process. And like time really, truly heals everything.

1:15:34Tori Dunlap:And it was just so good to see him and he's engaged. He's probably married by this point. I'm in a happy relationship. Like it was just everything that I wanted to be true was, but not on the timeline I wanted. And that's how life works. It was really brave for you to sit in it and brave for you to share the story publicly. Yeah. Fun. Fun stuff. Thank you. Thank you. I love you. I love you. Thanks for always being honest and funny. Always.

1:16:08Okay. You know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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