What Mount Everest Taught Her About Failure, Fear, and Finding Her Voice: Alison Levine

25:13And granted, like I said, these risks aren't going to kill you, but there's a lot on the line every single day, right? Our job, our reputation, our company's performance, our hitting revenue goals, market share goals. We all have things we're tasked with achieving and it can create a lot of stress. And the unknown can produce a lot of fear. and there is this part of Mount Everest. If people want to Google this, it's the Kumbu Icefall. Google the Kumbu Icefall and you will see one of the scariest parts of climbing Mount Everest. And you're basically walking over these crevasses that span hundreds of feet down.

26:01You could fall hundreds of feet to your death. You're walking over these rickety aluminum ladders trying to get across the open crevasse from one side of the route to the other. It's very scary. And you go through the Kumbu Icefall multiple times. And I thought, okay, well, it's scary the first time. Maybe the next time I go through it won't be scary. No, it was scary the second time and the third time and the fourth time. It was scary for me every single time I went through the Kumbu And I just had to learn to embrace this mindset that you can be scared and brave at the same time. That is really what I had to embrace.

26:43Fear is a normal human emotion. You should allow yourself to feel that fear. Just don't let it stop you in your tracks, right? You can be scared and keep going.

26:54Danielle:It's the only way. It is the only way. Georgia O 'Keeffe has this quote. She once said, I've been absolutely terrified every moment of my life, and I've never let it keep me from doing a single thing I've wanted to do. So when you say that fear is OK, even maybe helpful almost, but complacency is what will kill you. What is the most terrified you've ever felt by a choice of your own making? The most terrified I've ever felt of a choice outside of the mountains, you mean? Yeah. You know, I've been on the speaking circuit for 16 years and I had the same agent that represented me for 16 years. And I'm having the most incredible year this year.

27:36The month of October 2024 was an all time record year for me business wise. And I just left them and I'm thinking, what am I doing? You know, I'm having such a great run. But I got recruited away by CAA and I just signed with them. And I'm still going to be doing speaking, which I love, but I'm pursuing this bucket list goal that I've had for a number of years, which is to write and perform a one woman show and take it on tour all over the country and try to do a national tour of this one woman show. So I'm so scared because I've had such a good career in the speaking industry. And this is something completely different because the stories that I want to tell from the stage during my one woman show involve my expeditions.

28:20but they're also about just a difficult childhood and dealing with a parent who's extremely mentally ill and having to feel like the parent my whole life, you know, my whole childhood, I felt like a parent and sharing some of the more really vulnerable stories and how my childhood affected sort of my mentality in the mountains. Because when I went to the mountains and I would just be in a tent by myself on the side of a mountain. I felt very alone, but I could rationalize it. Well, I feel alone because I'm by myself on the side of a mountain in a tent. I'm doing this climb solo. So that's why I feel alone.

29:01But when I was in my house growing up, I also felt very, very alone, but I couldn't rationalize it because I'm thinking there's other people in this house, but why do I feel like there's no one looking out for me? And so So I want to tell the more personal side of my story in this one woman show. And I'm so scared to do it because it's really coming from a very vulnerable place. But I do have this dream to create this show and take it on the road. And so I'm really scared about that.

29:28Danielle:As a little plug, I don't think I've ever seen such a dynamic or engaging public speaker as I did you. And so I can only imagine how great the one woman show is. It's hard to pull off a one woman show, but you totally have the charisma and stage presence and all of it. I want that message about go big and go home to be a message in that show because I want people to take risks and try things and push themselves. But I want them to remember at the end of the day, human connection is the most important thing. And we can have so much impact on people around us by just being an encourager and being the person that can share a few words of support with somebody who's struggling?

30:14Danielle:Well, that voice that you're listening to now, it seems like it's been pretty loud ever since you were a kid. Even if you didn't recognize it was a voice when you were reading these books about mountaineering or climbing. I'm curious about the opposite voice, the one that's in your head saying, I'm tired, I'm cold, I'm afraid. I think everybody has the voice that says, I'm tired, I'm cold, I'm afraid, regardless of what industry you're in. How did you learn to override that voice and listen to the one that is beating in your heart? That voice that tells you, I'm tired, I'm cold and afraid is the same voice that has to tell you, I know you're tired and cold and afraid, but you can take one more step.

30:58You just have to train that voice to talk to you differently. That's the thing is, yes, I'm tired, cold and afraid. I think it's so important to acknowledge those feelings. Because by the way, when I'm standing in front of a massive crevasse with a rickety ladder across it that I have to cross, where if I fell in it, it could kill me. When I'm standing at the base of that ladder about to cross it and I'm feeling fear and somebody says, don't be scared. This does not help me at all. When I'm feeling fear and someone just says, don't be scared. No, that feels dismissive to me.

31:36Danielle:It's like when you're mad and someone says relax or calm down. Oh, great. Now I'm not scared anymore. Thank you so much. I'm all good. No, the don't be scared doesn't help me. I have to remember fear is a tool that I use to propel me forward. Fear keeps me awake, alert, aware of everything going on around me. And I feel like if you're in an intimidating situation, a scary situation, a situation that makes you uncomfortable, that fear can actually help you. And for most people, if we had to put our emotions in a bucket, in a positive emotion bucket or negative emotion bucket, I think most people would put fear in the negative emotion bucket.

32:22They think it's negative. And I just really reframed how I think about fear. And I think fear is the thing that's going to keep me alive. Fear is the thing that reminds me that I'm human and that I'm feeling all the things I'm supposed to be feeling, but that fear doesn't have to stop me from moving forward. So when that voice says, this is scary. I don't know. I just trained that voice to say, but you know what? One more step. And that's because on one of the very first mountains I ever climbed, I felt like I needed to turn around because I felt like I had this altitude headache. I felt like I was going to vomit.

33:05And this mountain, by the way, was Kilimanjaro, the first mountain I ever went to. Probably a lot of people watching this have been to Kilimanjaro. Thousands and thousands of people climb it every year. It's the highest peak on the continent of Africa. So it's one of the seven summits. It's the easiest one. So go to Mount Kilimanjaro on summit day, altitude headache, feeling sick to my stomach. Oh no, I'm going to have to turn around and go down. I'm definitely going down. Man, what a bummer. Before I go down, I'm going to take just a couple more steps, one or two more steps. Then I'm going to turn around.

33:35So take my one or two more steps. Okay. Still feel horrible. I'm going to go down, but let's take a couple more steps, more steps. Still feel like absolute shit. I know I'm not going to make it. I'm going to have to turn back because I feel terrible, but just a couple more steps. Well, before I knew it, I was on the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro. And so I reflect back on that experience. And I knew that on any mountain after that, when I felt like I'm tired, I'm cold, I can't do this. I feel sick. Wait a minute. I felt like that before. And I kept going then. And since I did it before, I know I can do it now.

34:15So you You just need that one experience to push through that. And then, you know, you can train that voice in your head that says, uh-uh, this is too much for you to say it feels like too much for you, but it doesn't mean that you can't keep going. So that's how I trained that voice is looking back on an experience from the past and thinking, I felt like this before and I did it. I could do it again now.

34:41Danielle:I think it's the idea I learned from a child psychologist. I asked her, how do you create and foster a confident child? And she said, competence equals confidence, doing something. And so recognizing that you've done it before, that you felt that way before. What does it mean to climb like a woman? You said you're five, three and a half. There are physiological differences. I've heard you talk about sort of making trades with some of the guys. When you climb, you'll offer to help them at base camp and they'll help carry some of the gear. How have you sort of negotiated all of this? Yes, it was an expedition I did where it was a 600 mile ski traverse across Antarctica from the edge of the continent to the South Pole.

35:26I trained as hard as I could possibly train. I read all the stories about the Antarctic explorers. I did the research. I did everything I was supposed to do to prepare for this expedition. When it came down to it, I could not keep up with my taller, stronger teammates. So you're skiing 600 miles across Antarctica with 150 pound sled that's harnessed to your waist. Still a sled with all your gear and supplies. This is harnessed to your waist. For me at five, three and a half, 110 pounds, trying to drag 150 pound sled. I could not do that as quickly or as efficiently as my teammates who were six foot four, 230 pounds, a foot taller than me, and twice my weight.

36:17The law of physics dictates that people that are that size can drag 150 pound sled a lot more quickly and efficiently than somebody who is my size. and no amount of determination, willpower, mindset, nothing was going to change the fact that I could not keep up with these guys with their long legs, right? On the skis going so much further than I could with every step. And there was nothing I could do to change that. Well, my twice my size teammates recognized that I was struggling with the weight of my sled and they actually offered to take some weight out of my sled, now making their sleds heavier, making their job harder in order to help me, their teammate.

37:04And that meant so much to me that they were willing to do that. So of course, I immediately started thinking, what am I going to do to pay these guys back? Well, what I found was that these tall guys at the end of the day, so you're skiing for 12 to 15 hours, you're absolutely exhausted, dragging the sled, you pitch your tent, then you have to build a snow barricade around your tent to protect it from the elements. And what I noticed was these tall guys, they were struggling to make the snow barricade because you use a very short snow shovel. So these guys were struggling and wrenching their backs, bending over, trying to build the snow barricades.

37:46Well, at five foot, three and a half, Jeff, I am closer to the ground. I can use a short snow shovel a lot more easily than these tall guys. So I then became the person who made the snow barricades and I shoveled the snow and I made the ice bricks for them and became the barricade maker. And it was a way that I could play to my strength and found that this was a way I could contribute. And it really changed my mindset for the trip because initially I thought I am a horrible teammate because I am not as physically strong as these guys. I have nothing to offer. I am not a contributor. I am not a valuable asset to this team.

38:25But when I stopped trying to compare myself to areas where they were strong and I focused on my strength, I found an area where my size, my small size was actually an asset and not a liability. My small size was a strength. And it took me a while to discover that. But once I started building the barricades, I felt like I was contributing. I realized that I was a valuable asset to this team. And it was such a great lesson because we have to realize we all have an area where we can shine.

39:00Danielle:I've heard you say, look for teammates with big egos. And when you're making progress, turn around and change direction. Hearing those, both of them, most people would say the exact opposite. it. Why, when you're making progress, turn around and change direction and why look for teammates with big egos? Okay. I'm going to start with the teammates with big egos. And this is something I learned from coach K Mike Krzyzewski, who wrote the forward for my book. So for anyone listening, who's not familiar with coach K he's the former head men's basketball coach at Duke university and the winningest coach in the history of division one men's college basketball.

39:40I was fortunate enough to serve on the board of the Coach K Center on Leadership and Ethics for a number of years. So I got to interact with Coach K a bit. And I remember this one meeting our board had with him when he had just come back from coaching the U.S. national team. They won a gold medal in the Olympics. They just come back. And he was talking about what he looks for when he's recruiting a team. And he said one of the things that he looks for is ego. And I thought, well, Well, of course, because you weed those guys out, right? You look for that and then get rid of those guys. And he said, no, he said, you want ego.

40:18And I thought, nah, it doesn't make any sense. Come on. He went on to explain it. And then it made a lot of sense. He said that when he's recruiting a team, there's two kinds of ego that he looks for. The first is what he calls performance ego. He said, I want people who are good and who know that they're good. He said, I don't want LeBron James to come out onto the court and be a wuss. I need him to be LeBron James with all of the LeBron James confidence that goes with him. And I thought, OK, that actually does make sense because I definitely don't want to be climbing Mount Everest with a bunch of teammates who are thinking, I don't really know about this.

40:56You know, this mountain looks really high. You want teammates who are like, yeah, we're going to do this. You know, we've got this. So that's performance ego. That's the first kind of ego that Coach K looks for. The other kind of ego that he looks for is what he calls team ego. And he said, I want people on my team who are going to be proud to be a part of something that collectively feels more important than the individual alone, right? So name on the front of the uniform, Team USA is more important than the name on the back of the uniform. And that made sense to me, too, because when I was recruiting for the first American Women's Everest expedition, I wanted women who were going to be proud to be a part of the first American Women's Everest expedition, wear the American flag on their sleeve.

41:46You know, I wanted that sense of, yes, we're a team and we're doing this. So that's where I learned about ego was from Coach K. And I thought this actually does make sense. and then what you asked about having to turn around and change direction when you're making progress and this goes back to the process of climbing Mount Everest you start at base camp and then you go up to camp one and you come back down and then you go up higher and you come back down and you know that you need to be going this way to get to the top of the mountain but you're spending a heck of a lot of time climbing down the mountain, back down to base camp to acclimatize.

42:28And a lot of people get very frustrated with that process because they feel like they're losing ground. And they put so much effort into climbing up to camp three at 24 ,000 feet above sea level. And now they're all the way back down at base camp at 17 ,500 feet above sea level. And they feel like they're losing ground. But what I remind people of is that just because you're going in a different direction than where you thought you needed to go to achieve your goal, this is not losing ground. This is your opportunity when you go back to base camp to regroup, regain some strength so you're better out of the gates the next time around.

43:17I have a phrase that I've actually trademarked, which is that backing up is not the same as backing down, right? It's not. Sometimes you have to back up and change direction. And sometimes progress doesn't always look like progress. But if changing direction is something that is going to give you an opportunity to regroup, catch your breath, reframe things, look at the route differently, This is all part of gaining strength. This is all part of making you better. So sometimes you do have to change direction in order to make progress. This is not backing down. This is not giving up. This is not losing ground.

44:01You look at this direction change as part of the progress. So maybe you interviewed for a job that you didn't get. Maybe you got transferred to a different division that you didn't want to be in. look at that opportunity and think, what can I do right now in this position that maybe I didn't think I would find myself in, this position that I would not have chosen for myself? What can I do with this opportunity so that I'm better positioned for success going forward? And that's how you look at those direction changes.

44:37Danielle:I have a few rapid fire questions for you.

44:43Danielle:What's one thing that every woman should try? One thing every woman should try, writing their name in the snow when they pee. And there's actually a device that we use in mountaineering that allows that. I call this the pee funnel. This device actually allows women to urinate standing up. So we can write our name in the snow. And the best thing about this device is that even in freezing cold temperatures, it stays this long. If you ever wanted to know what the big deal was about being able to pee your name in the snow, this is your solution. You can find out. So there you go. What is something simple that you do for yourself that makes a big impact on your life?

45:29Something simple I do for myself that makes a big impact is just snuggling with my dog. dog it sets my mood for the day if I can just get a snuggle and the crazy thing is I have a dog that's not affectionate and it kills me and he's a lab which is really unusual so we have forced cuddle time and I grab him and I'm like you're gonna cuddle with me and we cuddle but I feel like that sets my intention for the day I'm like oh I got some love just a little intention for the day and then the other thing is my husband and I when I'm in town we always do morning hug That's how I start off the day. Every morning, stand up, morning hug.

46:05It's a great way to start your day with a hug, but it doesn't have to be a physical hug. If you don't have somebody there, it can just be a quick text to somebody, just sending you a virtual hug. And so I think that's another thing that you can do every day because when you make someone else feel good, doesn't that make you feel good? And if you wake up every day and you start your day sending a text to somebody, just giving them a little boost and a little bit of encouragement, that not only makes their day, but I think it can make your day too.

46:35Danielle:I agree. What is the best financial tip or philosophy that you think more women should know about? I'm going to pivot this to the worst financial tip and just do the opposite. I think the worst financial tip is do what you love and the money will come. No, no. You know what I love? Hanging out with dogs, petting dogs. That's what I love. I'm not going to be able to pay my mortgage penning dogs. So a tip I have is take the job that you don't have to be incredibly passionate about the job itself, because I've had many jobs that I wasn't passionate about the job, but you know what I loved? The people.

47:14You know what I loved? The opportunity to learn. You know what I loved? Being in a situation that made me uncomfortable where I knew I had to grow. So my financial tip is take the opportunities that you might not be super passionate about because sometimes those opportunities will surprise you and you will learn from those opportunities. And years down the road, when you've made all the money and you've had all these success, then you can focus on doing what you love. But sometimes you have to do what you don't love in order to make the money to allow you to do the things that you love down the road.

47:50Danielle:Is that how you felt about finance? Yes. I did not like my job on Wall Street at all, but I loved the people. I loved the people so much. I was working alongside with green berets, concert pianists, Olympic medalists. I worked with such interesting people and I didn't love the job, but what I did love was the culture of being a clutch player. And what I mean by that is the people there delivered. When they said they were going to do something, they got it done. When they said they were going to have a report finished, they got it finished. And you knew that when somebody said they were going to do something that you could count on them.

48:33And I place a very high value on that. And there's a chapter in my book that talks about having a personal mantra, have a phrase or a few words that describes who you are at your core. My mantra is count on me. I'm the person that shows up. I'm the person who delivers. I'm the person that does not break my promises. And so being on wall street, I appreciated the culture of the people that I worked with at Goldman Sachs, even though I didn't love the job, I loved the people.

49:05Danielle:I like having a personal mantra. I've thought about a personal mission statement a lot, but not really a mantra. And I think that's easier to access. That's really interesting. It's what do you want people to think about you? If you have to describe who you are at your core and the way you want people to think about you, for me, it's count on me. I want people to know that I'm going to deliver for them. That's really cool. Okay. A book that should be required reading or something that you've read that has just really changed your life. Oh my gosh. A book that changed my life. Viktor Frankl, man, Search for Meaning about his experience as a Holocaust survivor.

49:42Danielle:Hey, I have a card game. And because we're virtual, I'm just going to have you say stop whenever you feel. OK, stop. OK, what's the one song that without fail gets you dancing? Oh, my gosh. I think Taylor Swift, shake it off. That's so great. Allison, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. My pleasure.

50:09Danielle:Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

50:29Danielle:Okay, here's the thing. Life doesn't exactly slow down, and neither do I. Between work and travel and podcasting and everything else on my calendar, I need clothes that can keep up. That's why I'm all about cotton. It's natural, breathable, soft, and doesn't shed microplastics when washed. Plant, not plastic. So whether it's a perfectly worn in t-shirt, elevated loungewear, or the cozy cotton PJs that you'd prefer to wear all day long, cotton always delivers. It's comfortable, makes getting dressed easy, and then it somehow always looks good. Cotton, the fabric of our lives. I love the little everyday moments with my dog, especially treat time.

51:06But dental care? Not always so fun. Until we found Greeny's Dental Treats. These are more than just tasty. They're vet-recommended and designed to support the four areas vets check the most. Plaque, tartar, gums, and breath. Their unique texture cleans down to the gum line and supports cleaner teeth after 28 days when fed daily. It's a simple daily habit that supports their health and gives us another moment to enjoy together. Greenies make health a treat. Shop now at greenies.com.

51:34Danielle:T-Mobile is reinventing business internet with Super Broadband. Whether you run a small office or a factory of 500, connection is everything. Powered by America's fastest 5G internet, plus Starlink. Super Broadband from T-Mobile reaches every zip code in the U.S. Super Broadband, a new era of business internet. Visit superbroadband.com to learn more. This is 5G network based on analysis by Eucalypt Speedtest Intelligence. Data 2H 2025. Speeds vary due to local network characteristics and management. Satellite requires hardware installation. Clear view of this guy with a 36-month commitment. Some people use ChatGPT to answer questions.

52:07Danielle:Others use it to get real work done. With ChatGPT Work, you bring the goal, plus real inputs like briefs, notes, files, feedback, data, and project plans. It can help turn them into an analysis, tracker, deck outline, prototype, or workflow you can review and keep shaping. You stay in control, giving direction and choosing the final output. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode. Available on Plus and Pro plans. Some so-called SUVs feel more like toys. You need a real vehicle that'll handle real life. A real SUV, like the all-new 2027 Kia Seltos.

52:45Danielle:With its best-in-class interior room, it'll make the others feel like toys. Check out the new 2027 Kia Seltos X-Line. It's real world ready. Kia, movement that inspires. Limited inventory available. Comparison based on publicly available data regarding cargo room and 2026 entry all-wheel drive CUVs as of May 2026. Entry all-wheel drive CUV class as defined by Kia segmentation. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.