What Self-Help Gets Wrong: with Gretchen Rubin

20:37Gretchen Rubin:And we wouldn't be able to meet consistently if we didn't do it through a video call because we're too spread out. And so this is facilitating a relationship that's really meaningful to me that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Now, am I super excited when I see these people in person? Yes. Do I think it's really important to try to make an effort to show up for them in person? A hundred percent. Now, have you noticed this, that you can talk to somebody on video many times, but then it's almost like you don't even recognize them when you meet them in real life. It's like, it's very hard to turn a 2D into a 3D.

21:09Gretchen Rubin:And I think for a person to really be in your mind and your memory, you kind of need the 3D because otherwise it's like, it's kind of hard to remember the details of their life or like, was it this or that? I don't know. I think that we always want to push it into face to face whenever we can. And then you think of things like grandparents who aren't able to see their grandchildren very often, and this can be a really important connection. It doesn't replace, but it can augment. Well said. I think that there's, maybe you'll know better, but I think oxytocin doesn't go off in our brain if not all five senses are engaged.

21:43And so there's maybe something there because I do think it feels different to be in person. If I hug somebody, it's so different.

21:51Gretchen Rubin:It's not a substitute, but it can be an important aid. And so it's a question of like, don't let it replace.

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23:39stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool.

24:08Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures.

24:14Gretchen Rubin:Thy ticket, Lady Jennifer of Coolidge. Well, many thanks, good sir. Heareth my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places that I love to shop. Getteth with the times. With the times? You're playing the lute. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right? Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen Report. That ugly red couch you've had for a decade? It's been living with you way longer than you ever thought it would. Because let's face it, great quality furniture just feels out of reach.

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25:18I think there is so much advice out there. Some great, some questionable. Even some experts I find questionable. And I think that's part of the fun of the industry.

25:29Gretchen Rubin:100 % well first of all I think the questions are always more interesting than the answers it's my life ethos Gretchen yes I just think very humbly as the person who's answering like the question's always the best part but I think you're right part of what's fun about it is that it helps us understand by questioning well what would I say do I agree it helps us see our own values more clearly or if we're talking about it with somebody else it's like it's a way to like without sort of arguing about our own experience it's allows you to say like oh well, what would you say? Or how would you have handled that?

25:59Gretchen Rubin:Or they got that completely wrong. And then somebody else would be like, oh no, I saw it. So I think it is kind of endlessly fascinating because we like to think about, well, what would we say? Well, how do you personally define good advice? I love when something rings true. There are times when somebody says something to you and it just rings true. And you are like, oh my gosh, that just brings me so much clarity. You know, and often it's a way of thinking about it or it's framing it in a way that you hadn't thought of. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, yes. Like I remember a wonderful advice that I got from my mother was my daughter was really young.

26:39Gretchen Rubin:And one thing about me is I live right around the corner from my in-laws. You didn't even cross the street. They live right around the corner. And this wasn't even advice from my mother, but something she said allowed me to reframe my situation. I was sitting to my mother, oh, you know, the thing that is so annoying about having a baby is just to go into the pediatrician, like constantly. It's like you, they got to weigh them. They got to get their shots. They got to get checked out. I feel like I'm just going to the pediatrician all day long. And she said, oh, well, I bet your mother-in-law would do it.

27:01Gretchen Rubin:Right. My Judy, cause she's a very hands-on grandmother. She said, oh, I bet Judy would do it. And I thought, oh my gosh, I don't want Judy to do it. I want to do it. I get to do it. And just realizing like, oh, I'm complaining about something, but I would never give it up. It completely changed my understanding of my own situation. And you often hear people say like, you don't have to, you get to. And it's such a simple shift, but it really can make a very big difference in how you see a circumstance. Talk about a happiness reframe. I like that example. Oh, I love a reframe. Okay. So we're living in a rampant self-improvement age.

27:36It's a multi-billion dollar industry. I personally love self-help. A lot of the books that you see in my background are self-help books. The critics of self-help or the skeptics often say that there are more self-help books than ever. And if all this advice worked, wouldn't there be fewer of them now? So in an effort to be discerning, who do you think we should definitely not be taking advice from?

27:59Gretchen Rubin:Well, I think anybody who hasn't met people, because that's not how people work. And just as a side note, one thing that's interesting is I think a lot of people have the idea that people who read self-help books are sort of the ones that are hanging on by their fingernails and are like really struggling. But actually those people don't read self-help books. People who read self-help tend to be very high performing people because they understand like how they can improve whatever their aim is for themselves. And they're trying to be happier, healthier, more productive, more creative, whatever they're trying to do.

28:25Gretchen Rubin:They understand that they can change and they're very interested in learning about it. So actually the people who read self-help books, for the most part, they've kind of got it together. I'm going to clip that for my dad, Gretchen. Thank you very much. Which is obvious because you're like very successful, right? But I think that the thing is to really try to understand what works for you. I think there really is a misconception that if something works for me, it will work for you. Or if it works for you, it will work for me. And if it doesn't work for me, there's something wrong with me. I'm not a grownup.

28:53Gretchen Rubin:I'm lazy. There's something wrong with me. Instead of saying like, there's a lot of ways to achieve our aims and maybe I'll try something because it worked for you, but it didn't work for me. This is me in meditation. People assume that I love meditation because I study happiness. I have tried it three times. I have been on a silent meditation retreat. I have meditated for months and I'm just here to say it's not a tool that works for me. I don't dispute that it works extremely well for a lot of people. A hundred percent. I'm just saying, at least at this point, it's not a tool that works for me.

29:23Gretchen Rubin:And that is fine because I have other tools to achieve the same aims for myself. But I think sometimes people really try to jam themselves into someone else's model, or they insist that everybody should fit in the model that they're advocating. In my observation, that's just not the case. What works for you? Are you more of an active meditator? Do you feel meditative when you walk or do yoga? Meditation is a discipline of the mind. And sometimes people who meditate kind of wanted to dispute that. But I think that you have to accept you are trying to do something with your mind when you're meditating.

29:54Gretchen Rubin:Even if you were trying to do nothing with your mind, that's very effortful. And I have a lot of focus. So what I try to cultivate is time where I let my mind off the leash, where I just let myself daydream and follow associations. Like I go to the Metropolitan Museum every day. I'm so fortunate. I live within walking distance of the meds. So I go every single day and I just walk around and people are like, well, that's meditation. I'm like, it's not meditation because I'm not trying to do anything in particular with my mind. I'm trying to like just play or just whatever. I just do whatever I feel like.

30:26Gretchen Rubin:And that is what I need. And so that is the practice that works for me. But what I'm doing is much closer to daydreaming than it is to meditation. Thanks for sharing that distinction. I feel similarly to you. I think for me, it's important to play more so because I'm constantly focused. Right. And so it's not that it's not a good tool. It just may not be a tool that is useful for the way you and your mind fit together. Right. Right. And also in this season, maybe that changes. That is an excellent point that there are seasons of life and sometimes we need something or something works for us very well.

31:00Gretchen Rubin:And then in another season, it doesn't. That's a really important point because I think sometimes people feel like it's sort of like now and forever or never. I could always try it again later. I want to get your pulse on something I've been thinking a lot about. I get pitched a lot of people who are experts and I put it in quotation marks because they'll say, I'm coming out with a book about how to get over your fear. And I'll say, awesome, what are your credentials? And they'll say, well, I worked 10 years in the corporate world and I was fearful every day. And I've really been thinking about lived experience versus expertise because on the internet, there are so many people calling themselves experts and really so much is lived experience.

31:43And I don't discount that, but I do find that there's a difference. Lori's background, Lori Gottlieb, your co-host in this podcast, is in psychotherapy and yours is in habits and happiness science. Do you have a pet peeve when it comes to internet personalities giving advice and presenting as experts? Because I'm going to be honest, I sort of do.

32:02Gretchen Rubin:Yeah, I think part of it is to be honest about what your credentials are so that people are judging according to what you say. A lot of times people, I would say in a medical area will describe themselves as doctors where they aren't medical doctors. And I'm like, if you refer to yourself as a doctor, when you're talking about medicine, I think it's fair for people to assume that you're a medical doctor. So I would make it clear that you're not a medical doctor if you're not a medical doctor. Now, people may not care if you're a medical doctor, but I feel like it's kind of deliberately misleading in that context.

32:34Gretchen Rubin:So that's an example of where I think credentials really matter. Now, I have this framework that I created called the Four Tendencies Framework, which divides people, upholders, questioners, obligers, and revels. And this has a lot of value if you're trying to figure out how to change a habit, or you don't understand why you're procrastinating, or you have a conflict with somebody, or you're trying to get somebody else to do something and you don't understand why they're not cooperating. And I have a quiz and three and a half million people have taken this quiz. It's on my website, gretchenrubin.com, and people can take it.

33:01Gretchen Rubin:And it's really helpful and it's really predictive. And a lot of times people will say to me, my whole life now is revealed to me, or now I understand why I keep having this argument with my husband or everybody on my team. We can instantly tell like which we are. And I can say to you, well, if I know you're a questioner, I can say these three things are probably true. And it tends to be very accurate. And I remember I was doing an interview with somebody who's like an academic and he was really pushing me for saying like, well, you're making all these scientific claims. And I'm like, to be clear, I am making no scientific claims.

33:32Gretchen Rubin:I have no laboratory with people eating marshmallows. I have done no 60 ,000 person study. I did do like a sample to see like the distribution and the population, but it was just to see the numbers. I think mine is from my observation. I find that people really find this clarifying. If I explain it to you, you can do the Game of Thrones characters. You can do the characters from The Office. We can do movies. You will be able to spot it in many people in your life. And for many people, it's a transformative thing to understand, but it's purely observational. So I think it's like really understand what is the person's claim for what they're saying and then judge it according to that claim.

34:12Gretchen Rubin:I think the problem comes when people are implying, well, I'm a leadership expert. I think then you have to say, okay, well, who have you led? Or like, oh, this is how to streamline teams. It's like, okay, what teams have you streamlined? Who have you fired? How did that go? Because I agree, it's very easy to give advice. One of the things that I do see is that people will give advice. And I'm just like, you have never met a person because that is just like not going to work, right? Like that isn't going to work. Or maybe that'll work, but probably it won't work. Probably the person's already tried that.

34:46Gretchen Rubin:And if that works, they wouldn't be asking the question. That's one of the reasons that I wrote my book better than before, which is all about habit change because people kept saying this works. Start small, tiny habits that works. I'm like, it works for some people, but what about all the people for whom it doesn't work? And there's a lot of them. Or make a to-do list, get clear on your priorities, start your day with matters the most to you. I'm like, that works for some people, but some people hate a to-do list. And if it's on a to-do list, they'll refuse to do it. What about those folks? Or get up early, start your day at 7am.

35:15Gretchen Rubin:And I'm like, but what about the night people? So I think you really have to judge who do you think has the credentials and speaks your language too. I think that's why your framework actually really helps. I took your test or your quiz. Okay. What's your tendency? I feel like you could probably guess, but I'm a questioner. I was going to say, I mean, the name of your podcast is a little bit of a tell, but yeah. And probably like, let me guess, are you told that you asked too many questions? Do you sometimes suffer analysis paralysis where it's hard to move forward because you don't have perfect information?

35:49Gretchen Rubin:Or do you tend to love research? Maybe you get pulled into the black of research and it's hard to escape. Are you the kind of questioner who doesn't like answering questions? This isn't all questioners, but a lot of questions are like, I don't want to have to explain myself. I did the research, like just take it from me. What are you? I'm an upholder. So should I explain what the four are? So people would love it. If you don't mind, I'm glad that you're not a questioner. So you don't mind sharing. Oh no, I love talking about this. Okay. What this looks at is a very narrow aspect of your personality, but it matters a lot.

36:19Gretchen Rubin:It looks at how you respond to expectations. So we all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, that's like a work deadline. Inner expectations, your own desire to keep your own New Year's resolution. So depending on whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations, that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel. So upholders are people who readily meet both outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important.

36:52Gretchen Rubin:They tend to love to-do lists, scheduling. They're very good at execution. They don't need a lot of supervision. So their motto is discipline is my freedom. Then I'm an upholder. Then there are questioners like you, and questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they're making everything an inner expectation. If it meets their inner standard, they will do it no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they'll refuse. They hate anything arbitrary, unjustified, irrational. They love research. They tend to love to customize. They're always looking for like the best, most efficient, most customized answer.

37:29Gretchen Rubin:And their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me why. You read me. Okay, good. Okay, right. It's ringing true. That's great. So then there are obligers. So this is the biggest tendency for both men and women. So you either are an obliger or you have many obligers in your life. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are the people who say, why is it that I can always keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself. They sometimes think it's a problem of priority or clarity or putting themselves first or self-esteem.

38:05Gretchen Rubin:But what it is, is that they need outer accountability, even to meet an inner expectation. If you want to read more, join a group. If you want to exercise more, join a class, work out with a friend who's annoyed if you don't show up, take your dog for a run who's so disappointed if he doesn't get to go for a run, raise money for a charity, think of your duty to be a role model for somebody else. There are a million ways to create outer accountability, but you have to realize that as an obliger, you must create outer accountability, even for an inner expectation. Can I ask you a quick question about the obliger?

38:36So to build that inner sense of responsibility, You need a buddy. Is that what I'm hearing?

38:42Gretchen Rubin:You need outer accountability. So buddy is one way, but there's thousands of ways to create outer accountability. Let's come back to that because there's a lot to talk about with obligers. So there's such a big group. But just to round it out. So if people are thinking like, well, what am I? I don't want to leave you hanging. So the motto of the obliger is you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do.

39:12Gretchen Rubin:But if you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to do. Like they don't sign up for a 10 a.m. spin class on Saturday because they think, I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that somebody is expecting me to show up is going to bug me. So their motto is you can't make me and neither can I. And that is the smallest group. Rebel is the smallest. Upholder, my tendency is only slightly bigger. These are kind of the extreme personality types. Obligers, the biggest, and questioners, the second largest.

39:42Gretchen Rubin:So this is useful if you're thinking about like a curriculum or clients or students or whatever. A big percentage of people are going to be obligers or questioners.

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42:02Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Thy ticket, Lady Jennifer of Cooge. Well, many thanks, good sir. Heareth my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Getteth with the times. With the times? You're playing the lute. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right? Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen Report. That ugly red couch you've had for a decade? It's been living with you way longer than you ever thought it would.

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43:09So you always see the opinion that people don't actually change. Is that true or false?

43:15Gretchen Rubin:I think both are true. I think people don't change and people do change. We change more than we think, but then, you know, there's a lot of parts of us that don't change. So I think we do change. We're always making our souls, but there is also the get what you get and you don't get upset aspect of it too. I agree with you. Maybe it has to do with your values. You are who you are, but you can change your tendencies maybe. Yeah, you can change your behavior. And when you change your behavior, you can change what your life looks like. When people call into your show, what seems to be the relationships they have the most trouble with?

43:48Family, romantic, or friendship?

43:50Gretchen Rubin:Family. Have you noticed any trends in the types of questions that you've gotten over the years? Do you think what people are asking advice about is revealing something about our culture? I think that the issues related to work from home are something that just didn't exist, you know, before. It feels like it's been going on a long time, but just in terms of sort of like our experience, it's very new. And so there's a lot of issues related to that that are kind of unprecedented. I wouldn't have thought about that. That's a good point. If someone could only follow one piece of advice that you give for the rest of their life, one that you think would have the biggest impact, what would it be?

44:27Gretchen Rubin:Accept yourself and expect more from yourself. So this goes back to your earlier question, like, do we change? It's like, on the one hand, you want to show compassion for yourself, accept yourself. Don't try to live up to some fantasy self. We are who we are to some degree, but then also expect more from yourself, push yourself, get out of your comfort zone, grow. So both are true. Accept ourselves and also expect more from ourselves. Speaking of expecting more, this is actually perfect for my next question. There's a saying that I really love that self-esteem comes from doing esteemable acts and felt so simple and so profound the first time I heard it.

45:04The idea that our confidence is built one small action at a time is something that resonates for me. What is an esteemable act that gives you, Gretchen Rubin, a big boost?

45:15Gretchen Rubin:Well, first of all, the research backs that up. So that's a very sound piece of wisdom. I really do try to connect people. I try to make useful introductions to people, whether it's giving people business, whether it's setting people up, whether it's thinking people could tuck shop together productively. I have started many groups. I organize things like reunions. I try to help bring people together. That's so cool that your octopus of relationships is your gift? You know, I don't know that it's a gift because I know people who do it so much better than I do, but it's something that I really work on.

45:55Gretchen Rubin:And it kind of comes hard to me because I'm always just like, oh gosh, I don't want to send another email or like, how do you spell that person's last name again? Or, you know, now I have to like describe what each of them in a sentence. So I don't think I do it effortlessly. I have a friend who just connects people effortlessly. Everybody's like, why does everybody know Kim Scott? Like everybody does. It's like a magic trick, but I work at it. So in that way, it's something that I esteem because I put the effort into it because I really value it, even though I'd sort of rather not. So I think that makes it feel more estimable in my mind than things that maybe would come even more naturally.

46:28Thanks for your honesty. I like that. I want to get your advice on people's questions. So the first one is, so I'm getting married soon, but I've been struggling with how some of the people that I feel like I've poured a lot of love into for some of their milestones, either have or haven't really shown up for mine. I want to meet people where they are. But when it comes to big life moments like a wedding, it's kind of painful when the people you've supported don't really show up for you in the same way. So I guess my question is, what's a healthy mindset for that? And then how do we balance acceptance and expectations and relationships?

47:06Gretchen Rubin:This is such a good question. And that last line is so wise because it's acceptance and expectation, because really the problem is that there's this expectation that the people will respond in a way that they're not. And just a few observations is earlier we were talking about season of life. And one of the things in many people's experiences of weddings is there's a wedding season. And when you are in a season of life where you have like a lot of time and energy free, you might have shown up for a friend in a really big way. but then by the time they're getting married, maybe you're like have gotten pulled into a really demanding job, or maybe you have a baby, or you just have a lot more demands on your time.

47:46Gretchen Rubin:And it's not that you don't have the same level of love. And maybe you wish you could do these things, but you're just not in a place where you can do it. And I think understanding that sometimes people's gestures match their feelings. And then also one thing that I experience is some people love making big gestures. They love buying gifts. They love planning celebrations. They love writing a toast. They love to do that. And if you love to do that, that's an important way for you to express yourself. But it may be that the people that you love don't share that. It's not the way that they want to express themselves.

48:23Gretchen Rubin:And it isn't a reflection of their feeling. It's just more of a reflection of like, are they like this with everyone? You know what I mean? It's like, well, they didn't write me a rhyming toast at my wedding, but I noticed they didn't write a rhyming toast to anybody else either. Like I have a friend who loves to give gifts and she would exchange gifts all the time. But I'm like, I don't like exchanging gifts. I don't know what to buy. I don't like running errands. I feel like I have so much stuff. Do they even need it or want it? Like to me, it's something she loves, but it's not something that's meaningful to me.

48:52Gretchen Rubin:But is she a better friend? To my mind, no. To her mind, maybe so, because it's a really important gesture for her. But in our friendship, we've sort of stopped exchanging gifts because I know she would like to do it, but it's not something that I am going to cooperate with. And so it may be that your expectations are just too high. There is a sense of reciprocity that people often have. It's interesting. I see this just in minor tangent. My next book is going to be about the empty nest as a forced reckoning of adulthood. And you see this sometimes with parents, they will do really extravagant, thoughtful gestures for a child.

49:29Gretchen Rubin:Like I'm going to write a long, thoughtful letter twice a week, or I'm going to like send these like really elaborate care packages. And they think, oh, I'll do that. And then my child will like flood me with attention and love and appreciation for this grand gesture. The lot of times our kids are like, thanks. Like they don't really care. And so if you're going to do that, it's like, do it for yourself because that's how you love to show your feelings, but try to manage your expectations because people don't always respond at the same level. There's also this element of something left unsaid.

50:04I had a friendship expert on the podcast a few years ago. I asked her for advice because I said, my bandwidth is so low and I don't feel like I'm being the friend I want to be. And my friendships are so important to me. And she said, I would just send a video message or a text message to your friend and say, I am aware that I'm not showing up the way that I want to right now. And I just want you to know it's not a reflection. I love you so much. And just say the thing.

50:30Gretchen Rubin:That's a great suggestion. Just come right out and say, but see, here's the problem though. This person wants to receive. That's great advice for you. And maybe if she got that, she would be comforted because she would be like, oh, it's not personal. It's like, oh my gosh, my friend has a new baby who's really cranky. And like, she just, you know, can barely take a shower, let alone plan a bachelorette party for me. But it's hard when you are wanting that. You feel like, well, I've taken time. I've gone to all these lengths for you. And so now I'm feeling very left out and neglected. Do you think it's worth a conversation or is it too hard to bring up?

51:06Gretchen Rubin:I think it's worth a conversation, but I think that's a very hard conversation to have. You know, a lot of times with a hard conversation, if you can use humor, that is very next level, but it can make it easier to say and hear difficult things and try to do it face to face. If you're like, hey, what is up? Like, you know, three years ago at this time, like we were in Nashville having an amazing time. Like, where's my plan? Or like whatever it would be so that you can broach it in a way that someone can hear that without becoming defensive and then maybe say like whatever it is. It's really good to talk about things, but it's really hard.

51:44Gretchen Rubin:It's really hard to say to somebody, my feelings are really hurt because I did so much for you when it was your turn and now you're just not paying attention to me. That's a hard thing to say. Okay. The next question is something I'm struggling with right now, even though I know it sounds a little silly. How do you find closure after losing a job? I gave years of loyalty and effort, built what I thought were real relationships, and then it just ended. No explanations, no goodbye, no chance to say my piece. How do you let go of the anger and resentment when there's no closure? Oh, that is really hard.

52:24Gretchen Rubin:You know, we were talking about reframing earlier. So one thing that you might do is to sit down for yourself and say, like, what did I gain from this experience? What was it for me? What was the value of it for me? Because that might give you a sense of closure within yourself. Like, oh, I really learned how to speak in front of a group. I really learned a ton about this industry. I got experience managing a team. What is it so that you feel like, well, there is closure for me, even if I didn't get closure with the other people. And also if you feel like the relationships are real, reach out to the other people.

52:56Gretchen Rubin:It's extremely valuable to have relationships with people as we go through life. And so the fact that you're not working with people anymore, maybe they're not going to be like your best friends and you're going to be going out or having them over to your house once a month. But maybe there was something silly that you all shared. Like there was some television show you would always talk about. You're like, oh my gosh, you know, let's have a finale party and get together and catch up and we'll all watch this. You know, something to keep those relationships alive or, you know, the occasional coffee or like, oh, this made me think of you text.

53:27Gretchen Rubin:So it's not like you walked out the door and everything just vanished, but that you do have this sense of ongoing relationship and having gained in skills and experience from it. It is really hard when you want from the organization something that it is not giving you that you feel like is owed. So it's how do you create the sense of closure within yourself? I think you touched on something that I hear a lot of my peers talk about. Millennials in particular feel, I think, when they work at large corporations that they gave so much. And when it ends, did anyone even care? So there's like a reckoning happening with corporate culture.

54:07I think Gen Z probably has felt that too.

54:10Gretchen Rubin:You see a lot of research that the sense of like dedicating yourself to an organization is not nearly as intense as it was in the past for exactly that reason. But, you know, another thing that can be a useful exercise can be imagine your future self, let's say like a year or three years in the future and write yourself a letter about like, why is it that it was really good that this played out the way that it did? I had a boss one time where no matter what happened, no matter how bad something was that happened, he would say, wait a minute, this works for us. And he was able to spin a tale that by the end we were like, this is amazing.

54:43Gretchen Rubin:This really works for us. You can say like, why in the end am I maybe better off? What is the future that I can imagine for myself where really like this works for me? And that can be another way to try to put it into a context that feels more positive. But I don't want to be Pollyanna-ish because you might be like, hey, you know, actually it was really bad. I lost my health insurance. But it is something that can be a very helpful way to reframe. I don't find it Pollyanna because it happened. So like you have to make the best of the situation. That's a good point.

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57:25We'll see you next time. Investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures.

57:29Gretchen Rubin:Thy ticket, Lady Jennifer of Coolidge. Well, many thanks, good sir. Heareth my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places that I love to shop. Getteth with the times. With the times? You're playing the lute. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right? Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen Report. That ugly red couch you've had for a decade? It's been living with you way longer than you ever thought it would. Because let's face it, great quality furniture just feels out of reach.

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58:35Next up. I get so paralyzed when it comes to the big life-shaping choices, like whether to leave a relationship that's mostly good, but missing something essential,

58:44Gretchen Rubin:or whether to take a new job that excites me, but terrifies me financially. The little decisions I can make quickly, but the big ones feel like they carry the weight of my whole future. How do you know when to leap, when to wait, and how to live with the fact that you'll never know what the other path might have been? Yeah, sliding doors. Well, one thing I will say as the sort of initial thing is often people imagine that if they made the perfect decision, they would feel no regret. So if I just think about enough, if I ruminate about this enough, if I take in enough factors, I will make the perfect decision and I will feel a hundred percent that I made the right choice.

59:20Gretchen Rubin:But the fact is a lot of times in life, it is an apple and an orange and you will feel regret because whatever you do, if you move to Baltimore, you can't move to California. And if you become a lawyer, you're not going to become a doctor and you may feel regret for that, but that doesn't mean that it's not the right choice. And so I think accepting that there is no regret free decision sometimes sometimes releases people from just like this constant loop because they're trying to avoid any regret. I mean, I remember somebody who was saying like, I was pregnant. I found out I was having a boy and I felt really bad because I felt really disappointed.

59:54Gretchen Rubin:Like, of course, I'm really happy to be having a boy, but feel disappointed. And her doctor said, well, of course you're disappointed because before you knew you could have a boy and a girl, but now you know that you're having one and that means that you're not having the other. And so it's not a reflection on the decision. It's just the fact that one sliding door precludes the other sliding door. So don't think that you're going to get out of thinking about the road not taken. But here are two things that I often will invoke when I'm trying to make a really tough decision. And the first is to choose the bigger life because no one knows what the bigger life is for you, except you, because should you get a dog?

1:00:29Gretchen Rubin:There are many good reasons to get a dog. There are many good reasons not to get a dog. What for you is the bigger life? Should you stay in the big city with all of its excitements and opportunities? Or should you move to your hometown where you have family and friend and a network around you who can say, what is the bigger life for you? And so I think this is a really helpful question because a lot of times when people say that they have a perfectly balanced pros and cons, if you say, well, which is the bigger life? They instantly know what the bigger life is. It sort of gets you out of that pros and cons framework.

1:00:58Gretchen Rubin:So that's a really helpful question. Another kind of way to think about it is to step into the future. A lot of times you're thinking, well, should I do this or should I do that? And you're like, well, which one would allow me to step into the future? Because one of the things that's hard is change. We're very captured by inertia. It's hard to change. The future and uncertainty can be very intimidating. And so when you think to yourself, like, well, what would allow me to step into the future? A lot of times that kind of, again, puts a different spotlight on what you're doing. So you're like, well, should I keep working in my job really hard and like really try to get a promotion and make it work?

1:01:33Gretchen Rubin:Or should I go back to school and get a different degree? We'll step into the future. I don't know which of those courses would be stepping into the future, right? I could see an argument for both of them, but you might really have an idea. Oh, really? The future is staying with this company and getting the promotion or the future is getting the degree. These are just helpful. For some reason, they allow people to evaluate their decisions differently. My whole ethos is if you want better answers, ask better questions. Well, that's so questioner. I love it. But I love those two questions because we're constantly seeking, but we don't know the questions to ask ourselves.

1:02:07I love those questions. Thank you for sharing those. Okay. The next one is, I keep telling myself compromise is part of being in a long-term

1:02:14Gretchen Rubin:relationship, but sometimes it feels like I'm betraying who I am. How do you tell the difference between healthy compromise and slowly disappearing inside your own life? Wow. That's a good one. That is a really good question. And it's interesting because on the Sense US podcast that we were talking about, we had a question where it was a young married couple and the wife wanted her parents from out of town to stay in their apartment with them, the guest room. And the husband was like, wow, you know, it kind of crowds my space to have them if they stay like more than a few days. And I really want them to stay in a hotel.

1:02:48Gretchen Rubin:I mean, just for myself personally, I'm in exactly that situation. And I just said to my husband, like, I really don't want to compromise on this. This is super important to me. This goes right to my values. So I'm really asking you to defer to my wishes here because this is really important. And so we didn't compromise. And so I think sometimes your value, you do have to say like, this is really my value and talk about it. Now, sometimes there is a clash of values where it's like, okay, and then you have to figure out, well, how do you negotiate a clash of values? But when you feel like you're disappearing into your own life, that starts to sound like accommodation that is happening without an open discussion of what values are in play or what someone really cares about.

1:03:30Gretchen Rubin:And I think you owe it to other people to say, this really matters to me. I think what happens a lot of times is that people expect others to read their minds and just think, well, of course they know that it's a huge pain for me to host Thanksgiving. And so of course, like, don't they get that this is like a huge annoyance for me and like other people should take a turn and it's not fair to ask me to do it. right they're thinking that but if you say cheerfully oh i'm happy to do it then others are not going to rush to your side and say oh it's not fair they're going to be like oh she likes to do it she's good at it like let her do it again you know and so i think sometimes it's surprisingly hard to enunciate our values for ourselves and then to articulate them to other people and then to give them a chance to like have a conversation about it because sometimes people will disagree.

1:04:21Gretchen Rubin:And then you have to decide, like, how do we find our way through this? I like your distinction between values and maybe virtues or preferences, because maybe the person whose value it's rubbing up against gets that one. But if it's a clash of values, you're right. That's confusing. That's a really good point. It's funny because with things like this, people will often say like, well, I'm sure your parents would be much more comfortable in a hotel. And I'm like, look, my dad slept on a blow up mattress in our living room. So like, this is our choice because that's about like, oh, well, this would be more comfortable.

1:04:49Gretchen Rubin:And I'm like, no, this is a core value. Right. There's different family dynamics. It's a different family dynamic. And not to say that this is the right choice for everyone, but like, this is just someplace where I put my hand in the air and said, this is really important to me. And so it's hard. I mean, you know, two people, you've got to deal with all kinds of things. Like how tidy do we keep our house? Some people are neat freaks and they can't relax if things aren't tidy. And everybody else is like, if you want to run around and tidy everything up, like be my guest. But I I don't think that it's necessary to live that way.

1:05:19Gretchen Rubin:It's like, okay, we got to figure that out. That's a very common clash, but it's part of a relationship. Okay, the next one is right up your alley, Gretchen. When you know exactly what you need to do to be happier or healthier, for example, go to bed earlier, stop doom scrolling, but you actively choose not to do it. What is the first mental strategy you can use to stop self-sabotaging and simply start doing the thing? Find out your tendency, because the first thing I would say is what is your tendency? And you're probably going to say, I'm an obliger. And I'm really trying to rely on inner accountability to get myself to stop that.

1:05:52Gretchen Rubin:And I would say, and that is why you are not succeeding. Now you have to have a form of outer accountability. There's a lot of ways to get outer accountability for all those things. But maybe you're a rebel. And if you're a rebel, then I would say, well, you got to go about it a completely different way. You got to do it in a rebel way. Or if you're a questioner, sometimes questioners have issues with things like this. I'm like, you got to lean into your questioner self. So I would say with something like that, I always think first, look at it from a tendency perspective, because that is probably going to point the way forward to you so that you can change that behavior.

1:06:23Well said. Everybody has to take your quiz.

1:06:25Gretchen Rubin:Yes. GretchenRubin.com slash quiz. Gretchen, I wish you great health and great happiness. I'm so grateful for your time today. This was so fun. This is so fun. Thank you for all these amazing questions. I would expect nothing less from such a questioner. Thank you. Thank you.

1:06:47Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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