Why High-Achieving Women Can Still Feel Empty With Brooke Taylor (ex-Google)

24:46And I also want to mention that you hadn't shared publicly what happened at Google until you wrote the book, right?

24:53Brooke Taylor:Correct. Yeah, I haven't and hadn't shared. In fact, my publisher was like, are you sure? Are you sure? And I said, yeah, I'm sure it's been 10 years. This is something that happened. It did happen. Although my trauma can say, did this really happen? Was it really that bad? And I will say just to put a finer point on it, that a few years later, I did report it. I had a very good experience with HR. They did an investigation. This person was terminated. And the company did the right thing, basically. I'm really happy to hear that because that doesn't happen all the time. No. Can I ask you why you chose to report it?

25:36What happened a few years later that you felt emboldened to report it?

25:41Brooke Taylor:Yeah, it was October 2017. Me Too was happening in a big way. The tech walkouts. Do you remember that? Google and other tech companies were having these walkouts. And somebody who was very senior at the company did an all hands and essentially kind of looked into the camera and said, if anything like this has happened to you, please come forward. And so I decided to come forward emboldened by that great leadership and saying essentially like this isn't tolerated. And again, great leadership, something good that had happened, but I still had to see this person in the hallway. This person continued to be my manager for another two years.

26:25Brooke Taylor:It really did impact my career and my sense of place and belonging at the company. I left shortly after because I wanted to start my business and I had done a lot of recovery and done a lot of work on myself. But that was something that really did impact me for a few years to follow.

26:48When it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University, we find ways to remove barriers, not build them. Like a new laptop if you're eligible and enroll in select online or on-campus programs. That means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. Online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu. Go on, get a little out there, into the big heart of Nevada, where you can go off-road and off the map, on two lakes, or on horseback.

27:28Dip into hot springs and dive into deserts, climb a mountain, or make your best effort. See thousands of stars in some of the darkest skies. Stake out haunted hotels. Can you make it to sunrise? There's always something new to see because we've got plenty of space to just be. Plan your trip at TravelNevada.com. And now, another appliance triumph from your friends at Grand Appliance. Meet Jan. Her fridge died days before a dinner party but she didn't panic. I just called my guy at Grand Appliance. He recommended a large capacity GE profile option with fingerprint resistant stainless steel and a convertible middle drawer.

28:07I can optimize for meat, beverages, snacks or wine. Best of all, it was in stock and they delivered next day. Another crisis averted by Grand Appliance. Shop GrandAppliance.com to learn more. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age? That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty.

28:45Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.

28:59So you write that the success wound is the pain of mistaking success for self-worth.

29:04Brooke Taylor:Yes, that's right. I was reading your book and I was thinking, oh my God, this is so hard to write about. I don't know how you wrote a book about this because that line can feel almost invisible. What is the difference between healthy ambition and a wound talking? It's a great question. And that line can be hard, but let me give you an example. So when I got this book deal, I got pregnant a couple months later. And I decided that I wanted to write every single word of this book. I wanted to still run my business and I wanted to do it all before the baby came. And so this is what my day looked like.

29:45Brooke Taylor:I'd get up at 5 a.m. I'd write between 5 and 10 a.m. I would take client calls. I would be doing marketing, running a business, and I'd go sleep at eight and do it all over again. Now from the outside, people could look at that and say, that's unhealthy. You should slow down. You don't have to do it all. You could get a ghostwriter. And a lot of people did try to say that to me. I was exhausted. I did deprioritize my social life. My friendship suffered. But the reason why this was healthy ambition and that this was just an example of my work ethic is because I believed so deeply in this message and I wanted it to come from me.

30:24Brooke Taylor:And I felt energized, inspired, my best self when I was writing and running my business. I didn't want to close the business down because I wanted to stay close to my clients so that I could stay close to this success wound in other people so I could write it from a place of not theory, but true application. And so again, from the outside, that could look like hustle culture. It could look like a million different things. But for me, I knew this was a good choice for me. Now there have been other times in my life where if I was doing that from a place of, oh my gosh, I need to prove myself. What happens if this book comes out and it's a piece of crap?

31:04Brooke Taylor:What happens if my book is delayed and my publisher is mad at me? Oh God, this isn't good enough. And those thoughts did come through my mind. But when I'm working from that place, from that wounded place, that's when I get stressed. That's when I'm not sleeping. Anxiety running the show. I'm prone to depression. I'm working to prove myself and to fill a hole rather than working from collaboration. So the interesting thing about our ambition and that line is that it's like a lamp, our ambition, but unlike the lamp in your apartment or our houses, it only has two outlets. Our ambition can be plugged in to a wound and to a place of fear, lack, and scarcity, or our ambition can be plugged into our true self, our place of curiosity, collaboration, creativity, playfulness, and presence.

31:52Brooke Taylor:And our ambition can get plugged into one and the other all within a single day or minute, kind of depending on where we're at. But that healthy ambition, you know you're in alignment with that when things feel expansive, flowing, challenging, but appropriately so, and very interested. So I give that example about the book because, again, it could look a million different ways from the outside, but you have to know it within yourself. I really like that imagery. And tell me if I'm internalizing it correctly, but I'm thinking like a very easy question to ask yourself, is this lighting me up or is this draining me?

32:26Well said.

32:27Brooke Taylor:Yes. Do you feel like, and I guess asking for a friend, AKA me, you know, my work lights me up and there are elements of my work that drain me, but they're necessary to get everything done that does light me up. So is there like a percentage here that you can think about? Yeah. Based on my research, you know, esteemable work has three things. One, it uses your strengths more often than not, which put you into a state of flow. The second, it's of the highest good for yourself, your end user, the business, everybody. So meaning you're not creating destruction or distortion or manipulation in the marketplace, for example.

33:11Right. And the third thing is that

33:12Brooke Taylor:it's in alignment with your values. So if these three things are met more often than not, so I would say 51 % of the time, then that's a career that I think is like an ideal path for you without putting purpose anxiety on it. But I'm the same. The thing I loved the most about working at Google was the people. I loved walking into a beautiful building, being at my desk, being surrounded by thousands of really intelligent people. As a coach, author, somebody who works for themselves, there's nobody around me ever, right? But the thing that I wanted more than anything else, my non-negotiables was a sense of meaning, feeling emotionally attached to the work that I was doing and autonomy, being able to call the shots in my work.

33:57Brooke Taylor:And those were two things that were lacking in my previous career. So I said to myself, and this is a prompt that I give to any of my clients, solve for two things that are most essential in your career and be okay with the trade-offs, the admin, the travel, the maybe loneliness sometimes, because those are always trade-offs and nothing's perfect, right? Right. I love that you mentioned meaning. Are there other things that you find that women in particular are seeking in their careers? Yes. The kind of main ones are meaning, flexibility, autonomy, a sense of being, again, appropriately challenged, like that sense of mastery.

34:36Brooke Taylor:People also can define that as like growth, wanting to grow certain skill sets in a way, those are kind of the primary ones. Where we tend to find fulfillment breaks down is not so much in what people are working on, but how they're working. Fulfillment really comes from our working styles and our ways of working rather than the content of the work itself, which is fascinating because 60 % of the people that come to me saying, I need a new job. I don't like what I'm doing. My manager sucks. I don't feel connected to what I'm doing. I don't have faith in leadership. 60 % of those people end up staying in their job, not because the content of the work has changed, but because their ways of working and relating to the work shift.

35:20Brooke Taylor:And that's really the power of healing our success wound and learning to work in a new way is that we experience fulfillment from the inside out. That's very Very cool to learn. I like how much research you share in the book. It's not overwhelming in any way, but you said that out of 5 ,000 women at companies like Google and McKinsey, you identified these five types of unfulfilled achievers. Will you walk us through the archetypes? You have the grinder, the pleaser, the hider, the seeker, and then the work hard, play hard. So let's start with the grinder. Who is she? The grinder is the person that wants to have more, be more, and do more.

35:59Brooke Taylor:One of my clients who's a grinder described herself as the type of shark that you see on Shark Week that's constantly in motion and dies if it stops. It's the person that feels almost like a high from crossing something off their to-do list and only feels valuable so long as they're moving, producing, and doing. Now, the grinder obviously has a great work ethic. The shadow side of the grinder is that they tend to work past the point of diminishing returns. Like they spin their wheels on things that don't matter and they tend to lose sight, lose the forest through the trees a little bit. The second is the hider.

36:35This is the person who shows up most often. This is the person who seems successful from the outside, but secretly harbors bigger dreams or aspirations for her career. She's playing it small in some way and it might not be visible, but she knows it.

36:51Brooke Taylor:she optimizes towards responsibility, loyalty, wanting to stay in one place so that she can be the expert at something and feel safe in her career comfort zone. But that comfort zone starts to feel like a prison because it silently kind of erodes her self-esteem. The third is the pleaser. So this is the person who's constantly wondering, are you mad at me? Or are they mad at me? Who's always in their inbox being like, what was that tone? They used a period instead of an explanation point. They asked to see me later this day in their head, it catastrophizes. They tend to have an anxious attachment style and to have social anxiety in other ways.

37:29Then we have the seeker.

37:30Brooke Taylor:This is the person, we all have a friend like this, who spends their mental energy on a spectrum of career confused to full-blown existential crisis, maybe sometimes all in the same day. They have a million different ideas. It's like, oh my God, Danielle, I finally found it. I'm going to do this or, oh my God, I have this business idea or I have this investment opportunity and it's going to be so amazing. We get bought into their vision, but over time you see the pattern and realize that their restlessness, irritability, and discontentedness will never be solved because they keep looking for the shiny object.

38:05Brooke Taylor:And then we have the work hard, play hard. This is what I was when I was at Google. This is the person who lives their life in extremes. They want to be booked and busy. They want to be enviable and extraordinary in every way, not just in how they achieve, but how they vacation, how they party. They love having eyes on them. It doesn't have to be just somebody in their twenties. The work hard, play hard that I use in the book is a working mom who lives on a farm in Texas. She just turns to unhealthy coping mechanisms and calls it balance. They tend to have addictive personality types, but they're also really fun to be around.

38:38Brooke Taylor:Now, at Google, I was more of a work hard, play hard. But today, I'm more of a pleaser hider, actually. I find that even though I'm writing this book and going on these podcasts and stuff like that, there are so many ways in which I have that kind of perfectionism that shows up as hiding. Do you relate to any of these? Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I was thinking, I think I relate most to The Grinder. This year, a lot of my work, like self-work, has been trying to unravel not doing it all, like actually saying yes to rest in some ways instead of doing more, accomplishing more. My other question for you is because can this change throughout your life stages, but I'm hearing you say yes.

39:17So like you can identify most with one and then, I don't know, maybe you become a mom and it totally shifts. If you identify with one and you don't heal the success wound, do you usually identify with something else later on? Yeah, definitely. It just shapeshifts because all these are, are protective coping mechanisms that we use

39:39Brooke Taylor:to shield us from the pain of being seen as incompetent, inadequate, not enough. And so as long as that pain is still there, we're going to use all the coping mechanisms in our arsenal. And some people are like, why isn't there a perfectionist? Why isn't there an inner critic? Why isn't there like a self-doubt? all of these parts have perfectionism, inner critic, self-doubt laced throughout them. But I find that these constellations of behaviors are most common specifically in high-achieving women. And yes, we all cycle through them, maybe all in a single day or depending on our phase of life, or we have one career and then we switch careers and that demands a different part of us, for example.

40:20I want to dig deeper into what you just said. You find that these show up in high achieving women most often. And you write in the book that women in power are more burned out, more anxious, and more depressed than men in power. My first question to you is, is that really true? Yes. So the research says that women tend to have higher rates of anxiety and depression, the higher that they climb, and at a disproportional rate to men. Now, it didn't say why. It didn't say why. I think that would require a sociological study.

40:55Brooke Taylor:My hypothesis goes back to kind of this promise that we all had, especially as young people, that the higher we climb, the more we get to the top, the more satisfied that we'll be, the more power we'll have, the more autonomy or flexibility or responsibility we'll get, right? Like how many times have you said to yourself or have I said to myself, you know, when I get through this busy season, then I'll relax. Oh my God, Brooke, I'm embarrassed. That's all I say. I just got to get through this. I just got to get through the spring. Yeah, I just got to get through May and then. Yeah, exactly. And then more things come on.

41:30You're like, yeah, I could take that on. Okay, well, I'm already on the East Coast, so I could just toss that in. Yes. That grinder is kind of like a camel, right? But I think, again, underneath that is the promise. That is a cultural promise that the more that we have, the better we'll feel about ourselves.

41:46Brooke Taylor:And that's not a personal, again, that's a cultural promise that has been kind of manipulated within us and I think exacerbates our success wound. And especially for women, I think we have so many other parts of ourselves that want to be expressed, that can't be expressed the more demands there are on our time and our energy. And I think we feel that on a soul level. I agree with you entirely. And I have another part of the hypothesis I'm curious about. Please. And you can totally tell me if you think I'm nuts, but one of my best friends from college just started dating somebody like six, seven months ago.

42:24And she's a high achieving attorney and he's high achieving in his field. And she's like, now that I have a boyfriend that I see works like just as hard as me, which he hadn't had in the past. And we're on a schedule. Like, so we wake up, we have coffee, we work out, et cetera. She was like, I see explicitly how much more time he has in the day than I do because I am a woman. And she adds up all these sort of invisible hours of like she has to do her hair and like she does minimal makeup, but like that. And then she has to go do an errand or two that he doesn't have to do. And I think all this time stuff adds up to women feeling just so burned out.

43:05Yeah. I love Corinne Lowe's research on this. She wrote a book called Having It All and like the behavioral economics behind the invisible

43:14Brooke Taylor:labor that women take on. And I was asked a question at one point, which was, who has the hardest time succeeding in the workplace? And I cited some research about the fact that women without kids actually have the highest burden on their time because it's the people who are perceived to be as capable, competent, and flexible that end up being given so much of this invisible labor. And it struck a bit of a chord because the women with kids say, hey, I have so much more invisible labor on me. But I think the truth is, is that women in general have so much invisible labor on them. And we hold ourselves to an incredibly high standard because in school, we're really good at understanding what are the rules?

43:56Brooke Taylor:What are the markers we need to hit? How can I organize myself and my life in order to charge through that? But there's been so much research to say that the world doesn't reward perfection. It rewards bravery. And I think that that bravery to have the difficult conversation or to set the boundary or to say, no, I'm not going to do that is the thing that maybe we're not conditioned to do, which causes that invisible labor. Wait, say more about that. There's research to say that the world rewards bravery. Yeah. Women are typically raised to be perfect. So Brene Brown did research around that that said, how do women and men experience shame along gender lines?

44:34Brooke Taylor:Mostly for women, it's around this notion of balance, appearance, perfection. And for men, it's around being a provider. And so for us throughout our school system, it's very, very much engineered for us to say, okay, I hit this milestone, I get an achievement. I hit that milestone, I get an achievement. And that inculcates within us, again, perfection. If I study the perfect way, if I answer all the questions, if I follow the rules, then I will get rewarded. But the world really doesn't work like that, does it? Corporations work like that, but I don't think entrepreneurship necessarily works like that.

45:18When it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University, we find ways to remove barriers, not build them, like a new laptop if you're eligible and enroll in select online or on-campus programs. That means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. Online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu. Go on, get a little out there into the big heart of Nevada, where you can go off-road and off the map, on two lakes or on horseback.

45:58Dip into hot springs and dive into deserts. Climb a mountain or make your best effort. See thousands of stars in some of the darkest skies. Stake out haunted hotels. Can you make it to sunrise? There's always something new to see because we've got plenty of space to just be. Plan your trip at TravelNevada.com. And now another appliance triumph from your friends at Grand Appliance. Meet Jan. Her fridge died days before a dinner party, but she didn't panic. I just called my guy at Grand Appliance. He recommended a large capacity GE profile option with fingerprint resistant stainless steel and a convertible middle drawer.

46:37I can optimize for meat, beverages, snacks or wine. Best of all, it was in stock and they delivered next day. Another crisis averted by Grand Appliance. Shop GrandAppliance.com to learn more. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age? That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty.

47:15Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.

47:30I'm curious how you feel this wound, the success wound, shows up in relationships, in health, in the way we parent. How do you see it showing up in other areas? Yeah. It's interesting because my story of my success ideal, the image of the perfect, optimal or good working woman today looks like the effortless entrepreneur, right? Somebody who's invited into all the right rooms, whose revenue goes up into the right quarter after quarter, who naturally signs clients and attracts people to her, who has all their systems on lock. But when I talk to people about this image for others, it's, I want to have this family and I want to have this career and I want to have both.

48:15Or for some people, it's like, you know, I want to be traveling the world and I want to be involved in different cultures and different ideas and different spaces and places. I want this exotic life. It really doesn't matter what your image is, but I think we all have it and it's unconscious. And I share that just to say, I think all of it pertains to success. And I don't mean just like achievement, but I mean like goodness, optimal, the vision that we have for the person that we're subconsciously comparing ourselves to. And the interesting part about the success wound is that if we don't set our standard for what's enough, our success wound is always going to set it for us.

48:56And so I had this moment where I was early on in my recovery process and trying to make decisions for my good judgment and my intuition and saying no when I meant no and staying in instead of going out. and even though my work hard, play hard changed, wellness had become my new obsession. And I was,

49:19Brooke Taylor:you know, instead of working really hard Monday through Thursday and partying on the weekends, I was going to therapy. I was going to meditation classes. I was going to yoga. I was going to breath work. I was going to Qigong. I was going on retreats and I was doing all of it. You're going to be the best healer to ever heal. Exactly. I was like, I will ace my healing. But again, it was coming from, there's something wrong with me. There's something broken within me that I need to fix. And so once again, I found myself crying in a phone room. And that was always my telltale sign. I was like, something's wrong if I'm crying in a phone room again.

49:53And so to answer your question, this success wound shows up everywhere, but it forms this image that we are constantly comparing

50:03Brooke Taylor:ourselves to. And unless we consciously rewrite what that image is, our success wound is always going to pick up the pen and draw a picture for us. You just said something that made such a light bulb go off for me because I have been feeling like a dating failure. And I recently had this realization, like I was like, oh, I'm not the problem. I'm not broken. I'm not blocked. I just haven't found the person for me. And now I'm thinking maybe I need to switch cities, not forever, but just intermittently. But we can talk about that later. But you're really making a light bulb go off for me because I think a lot of times, and I really love self-awareness.

50:44So thinking about your side of the street, as you so aptly put it early on, is important. And sometimes you're not the problem. It's really nice to feel that. It's so true. And my favorite quality in somebody is this ability to be self-aware. What's my part in it? What can I change? Is there something in me? Because that inherently puts you in a position of being a creator in your life. You're not a victim, right? Like Danielle is not a victim. She won't be a victim in her life ever, especially in dating. But I think there is a line where it's like, okay, you've exhausted your side of the street.

51:23Brooke Taylor:Maybe, you know, and still you're not a victim. Maybe it's just a matter of you haven't found your person. And that's okay too. Totally. Yeah, I always say I'm not a victim. I'm a volunteer just because I like alliteration. I like that. That's a good one. Before we totally get into how to heal this, I'm curious what your personal, what Brooke Taylor's definition of success looks like now and how is it different from the version you were chasing at Google? Yeah. Before, whether it was Google or my wellness obsession, it was always about, I mean plain and simple literally what do other people think what does it look like what are the accolades that I can collect and I know that sounds so obvious but if you really were to observe your thoughts how often are so many of us doing things even very subtly for the what are people going to say what does it look like from the outside and I have to watch myself every single day, not to promote my book about healing the success wound from my own success wound.

52:28It is my work every day, every minute of every day, because people can feel that, can't they? Wouldn't it be just so out of integrity if I was using this book as a way to get people to like me more? That would be such a missed opportunity. And so what do I do today?

52:48Brooke Taylor:quite literally, as long as my intention and my definition of success is about connection and what do I want to enjoy? So connection and joy, then that is enough. That's enough. And I feel so blessed to be at a stage in my career where quite literally, this is a life and a career beyond my wildest dreams. And I didn't have a playbook for it. So everything feels like icing on the cake. Just being able to have this conversation with you, like I'm so glad to be doing that. And so whether this sells a book or not, like I'm genuinely having a great time with you. And I think a lot of people might be saying, okay, great Brooke.

53:25Well, like I have a family to provide for, and I have performance reviews and KPIs to hit. And is AI going to take my job? All of those can continue to be realities. Yes. And your definition of success can be

53:39Brooke Taylor:something that's more esteemable and regulates your nervous system and puts you on a track that allows you to be creative, collaborative, and innovative. Because there is so much research that says when we are operating from fear, scarcity, and stress, our careers do not go very well at all. So the realities can still be going. The storm can still be swirling around us. But how can you be the eye of the storm and kind of create what you want to within that? So well said. And you kind of give a five-step process in the book. It's the heart of the book, I would say, and you say the first step is to diagnose the wound.

54:16I have a personal investment in what you say the anecdote to some of this is, which everyone will find out soon. But how do you get to your true self? What does that actually look like? Yeah. So those five types that I mentioned earlier, that is almost like your success wound diagnosis, right? Like that's how your success wound shows up. And that is part of our psyche called our protector self. And our protector self is intended to protect any negative feelings from ever coming forward. So we have our protector self, which shows up as our hider grinder, pleaser, seeker, work hard, play hard. That's protecting our deep fear of inadequacy, our fear of being rejected or embarrassed or ashamed.

55:04But then we have this other part of ourself that's not just psychology according to Brooke. There's a lot of psychological basis for this that's called our true self.

55:13Brooke Taylor:And this is the part of us that every single human who is on this earth has the capacity for naturally and inherently. It doesn't need to be built. It doesn't need to be molded or modeled. You don't need to go to a retreat to create her. She is naturally confident, competent, clear, courageous, curious, playful, present. She's the part of you that shows up when you're naturally intrigued about something, when you're maybe playing with your little cousins or nieces and nephews, when you're having a really great conversation and time's expanding, when you're in a state of flow. That is the part of you that's called your true self.

55:52And so really, I say that I'm a career coach that helps people to create fulfilling careers. Truly, my only goal is to get you back in touch with your true self because she's there. She's just buried under these protector behaviors that show up at work because that's what we think we need to be doing and how we need to be behaving in order to get ahead. And then tell me about how curiosity is part of some of this healing. Yeah. So according to a man named Richard Schwartz, who came up with this model of the psyche called internal family systems, he was somebody who

56:30Brooke Taylor:discovered that our psyches are inherently multiple and a hallmark of the true self is curiosity, is the part of us that sees a little glimmer to the right and says, ooh, I wonder what that is, or is naturally, you know, interest is piqued when she's reading something and wants to read more about that thing, who wants to ask questions and listen. When we're asking questions and listening, it puts our body into a relaxation response. Did you know that? No. Yeah. So even as you're doing this now, I'm imagining in your body when you're really in the present and you're asking questions and you're listening, you're probably really relaxed and regulated, I'm guessing.

57:10Half and half because I'm also really wanting to give you the best interview I can. So part of me is like, oh, I should have asked that differently or, you know, but if I'm in regular conversation and not an interview, yes, I'm very relaxed. Yes. And so the beauty of curiosity and asking questions is that, sure, we can do that with others. But part of our healing process is to actually be curious and ask questions to our feelings in our body. So one of the very first parts of healing we heal on three levels we heal on emotional level

57:41Brooke Taylor:Mental level and the level of behavior or action and the emotional level is the level that a lot of people are like You know, what does that look like that is that therapy? How can I do that in a workplace? But curiosity is actually the way in because when our success wound gets activated Let's say you're in a workplace whether you work for yourself or for your boss Anybody has a stakeholder that they want to impress let's say that stakeholder in some way shape or form says you know you're really missing the mark or you didn't do as well as you could do here what does that create that creates a pit in our stomach a closing in my throat maybe a tightness through our solar plexus or our chest what i want you to do in that moment is i want you to identify that feeling in your body to give it three adjectives so heavy tight tingling uh rock whatever that is and i want you to ask it a question i want you to ask it a question, this feeling, the question, what do you want me to know?

58:35What are you afraid would happen right now? Why are you here? And that curiosity, when we are curious, we're naturally in our true self and it creates

58:44Brooke Taylor:a separation between our true self and the feeling. So even if you work in a corporate environment with thousands of people, even if you're in a desk job, even if you're a nurse, even if you're a teacher, you can always in the workplace, Notice what's happening in your body. Give it three adjectives and ask it a question because that's going to unearth the emotion that's underneath it. And instead of pushing it away, you're developing a relationship with it. And over time, this relationship is going to strengthen and it's going to help you heal those negative emotions. So cool. Thank you for explaining that.

59:19How beautiful. Yeah. I think something that people are going to be like feeling and maybe be scared to ask themselves or scared to ask you is, if I heal this, will I lose my drive? Will I lose my ambition? What do you say to that? That's part of a cultural misunderstanding that we need to be anxious, in competition, and fueled by scarcity in order to get ahead. And that couldn't be further from the truth. when we look at our ancestors or children or when we think about how we are when we're doing our best work we are in a state of flow collaboration creativity and curiosity so the goal of this work isn't to help you lose your edge although sure a little bit of performance anxiety obviously can't hurt a little bit of you know how is this going to go of course that's going to keep you on your toes.

1:00:17But what tends to happen is that anxious achievers tend to be 400 % more productive than average people, but to a point. So what happens is that once we hit that point, actually performance goes down precipitously.

1:00:33Brooke Taylor:And that point is the point at which our protector self or our success wound has been running the show so much that we start to get burned out, exhausted, depleted. We're no longer coming up with innovative solutions. We're perpetuating a lot more of the old. And so my work isn't to help you lose your edge. It's to help dial down the suffering and the emotional heaviness that we all put on ourselves through high expectations, through negative self-talk, through what are they going to think, what's going to happen, to help lower that so that you can continue to perform in a way that feels esteem building and exciting.

1:01:10Brooke Taylor:So I think we all kind of get to a point where it's like, this doesn't work for us anymore. And if anybody's listening to this and is like, nah, I still got like, you know, this is still working for me, then great, keep going. But I think so many of us are looking for a new relationship with work that actually works better. Do you know what I'm saying? I know exactly what you're saying because I actually think if I had had this conversation with you a few years ago I would have totally taken in everything you said but also thought It's working for me right now. Like i'm supposed to be grinding and I hit a point where it was impossible to maintain and I don't think i'm fully on the other side but somewhere like between the messy middle and the other side and I can say that I'm starting to feel better and I'm actually more productive with help and with not feeling like, I mean, you call it sort of like manic ambition versus aligned ambition.

1:02:10And I think that's a perfect term. So less manic, more aligned. You know, in addiction recovery rooms, they say we can't rob anyone of their bottom. I'm not here to convince anyone to do something different. This is for the people who have hit their bottom and they're like, please tell me that there's another way to work. So, you know, again, if things are working for you or you're not ready to change, you know, please keep going. But if you're somebody who's wondering,

1:02:38Brooke Taylor:is there a way for me to work in a way that builds me up rather than breaks me down? Is there a way for me to feel good about my accomplishments instead of always doubting if I've done enough, if it is enough, then this is who that's for, I think. Yeah, I think so too.

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1:05:11If there's somebody listening in their car, walking, wherever they are right now, and they're saying this is resonating, what is the first thing that she should do tonight? Yeah. So there are actually three things that you can do to increase your self-worth consistently

1:05:30Brooke Taylor:and over time. And these are behaviors that are going to help kind of fill that hole, that void, that emptiness that you might be feeling, that not enoughness. And the first thing that I think everybody can do is learn how to make decisions when they're 51 % sure. And what I mean by that is a lot of people tend to only make decisions when they're 99.999 % sure. Once they've gathered all the data, canvassed for opinions, done the pro con list. I want people to get comfortable making decisions when they only are 51 % sure. Well, that's very brave. Wait, first of all, how do you make decisions? What's your decision making process look like?

1:06:09I used to be a person who canvassed for lots of opinions. When I was a kid, my parents would actually make fun of me because they'd be like, oh, she's asking a million people. And like, she's asking her dance instructor. It's like, that had nothing to do with my, you know, the question I was asking. But as I have gotten older and truly, I think because of therapy, I believe myself. I trust myself. And so I don't canvas as much. I canvas if I'm looking for like a skill set I don't possess, but I don't canvas if it's a feeling or a gut or heart thing. Yeah, exactly. So typically when people fall into the seeker archetype or the hider archetype, they tend to rely on people who are experts to tell them what to do.

1:06:54And so again, one way to strengthen your self-worth is to learn when something is pulling you just 1 % in a certain direction or not. Because more often than not, that will help you to trust your judgment and learn that your judgment is good and learn the internal mechanism of your intuition. Because I guarantee you, okay, maybe a couple of times it might be wrong, but it's going to be more right than you could have possibly imagined. And that's going to create a better relationship with you and your judgment. And that inherently increases your self-worth. That's a great one. It's so tactical.

1:07:31Thank you for that. I also want to share that something shifted for me because I like to come into everything curious. It's like definitely my nature, but also I think it's served me really well in a lot of ways. So relationships, boardrooms, wherever I am. And somebody said to me one time, Danielle, sometimes you are the expert in the room. Like curiosity is important. And sometimes you don't have to look to the experts all the time. And so that was a huge shift. But please keep going because you have two more.

1:08:01Brooke Taylor:That's a huge shift. Yeah. And everyone's an expert in their own lives. And again, of course, that doesn't mean, yeah, don't take on good opinions or if you're new at something and you want to learn about something, obviously. But I think especially as women, we can learn to make decisions from the 51%. The second is to get in the habit of every day taking one micro risk. And one micro risk is engaging in something that makes you feel 20 % uncomfortable. It's one step outside your comfort zone because people who tend to have higher self-worth and have higher fulfillment are people who are constantly expanding their comfort zone.

1:08:41not from a place of like, not, oh, I want to learn more, but from a place of, I am somebody who can take risks and be okay when things don't go well, who has a positive, more positive relationship with rejection, who knows how to respond to setbacks. So this is something that

1:08:58Brooke Taylor:I always encourage my clients to do is taking those micro risks. Okay. It could look like DMing somebody that you admire and training voice notes, but it could also look like, again, speaking up when you have just a little bit of the information or turning to the person to your left in line and striking up a conversation, something like that. My clients who do this on a consistent basis report feeling better about themselves. Their head hits the pillow and they're thinking about that moment. They're like, you know what? I did the hard thing and that feels really good. Do you ever do this? I'm curious.

1:09:30Yes. I will say though that this is something that I'm very grateful to my mother for. And I've told this story on the podcast before, but when I was younger, we would sit at a park and I was like five or six, very little. And she would say to me, do you see these people walking by and they are like holding hands or with their dogs? And she would say, they're all out living their lives. And you can either sit on this park bench and watch them live theirs, or you can get up and go live yours. And I've always thought about that. So I struggle with a lot of other things, but the micro risks, I think are more inherent because of her, which I'm so grateful for.

1:10:09How do you feel about micro risks?

1:10:11Brooke Taylor:I'm so bad at it. It's the thing that is like the hardest for me. I'm good at trusting my judgment. I've always been quite decisive and I know what my intuition feels like through years of practicing. It's the putting myself out there that makes me want to crawl up in a ball and never come out, which is why this book has been such a huge expansion for me because I've had to get rejected over and over again, you know, in the best way possible. And then I've gotten yeses that I never would have gotten to, but this is the hardest one for me, for sure. Can you say more about this? Because I think my assessment of risk is probably less relatable to most people listening.

1:10:47I think most people feel the way you do. Like, how have you micro-practiced? How have you gotten better? What was the first step for you? And does the rejection feel less bad over time? It feels less bad over time. And I have to be honest because I've gotten some yeses. It's like, okay, this does work. If I was DMing people that I admired saying, hey, I really love your work. And I think this book would really be interesting to you. Can I send you a copy? And literally nobody replied. I'd feel really discouraged. but the fact that I have gotten some people that I genuinely admire be like, yes, I'd love to read your book.

1:11:24Please send me a copy. I'm like, wow, this really works. So the positive feedback loop has been so rewarding and it's made me realize, oh my gosh, I do have this capacity that's greater than I did before. Because again, I have had success from the outside, but I think I've been playing in my comfort zone professionally for a long time, only doing things that I know I could

1:11:48Brooke Taylor:be good at, but intentionally putting myself into a position of being rejected has been really good for me. I love hearing that. I have this phrase that I say to myself all the time that trying is winning. And it's sort of a mantra that helps me not fear the rejection as much because it's like as long as you're trying. And I was also thinking as you were sharing that, you know, if there's somebody listening who's like, I did send 10 DMs and no one replied, I would probably say like change the mechanism change your approach. What would you say? I would say change the mechanism change your approach, you know Sure, go get some advice talk to somebody i've done that a lot too.

1:12:29I'm like, what would you respond to right? But I would also say, you know If you're at a point of discomfort, that's when a lot of people quit So keep going So if you're at that point of discomfort, that's when you know to actually double down Like keep going keep going because that's when most people that's when most people quit That's when I've quit. I'm like, oh, it doesn't work, you know, but it's the consistency. And so that's why, again, self-worth is built. It's built over time. And then the final piece, which I think actually can really help with both of these things is developing a relationship with faith.

1:13:01And you might be saying, okay, what role does faith have in the workplace? I'm not religious. That's not what I mean. I mean, trusting in something greater than your fear, trusting in a vision that you have for your life or yourself that is really inspiring to you.

1:13:15Brooke Taylor:sure, getting a relationship with a God of your own understanding or the universe or a benevolence, that's all really great. But I think so much of our relationship with uncertainty is because we don't have faith in something that's guiding us or faith on what could be on the other side. And so that's how the book ends is really on this note of understanding that there's going to be so many leaps of faith in your career. And that's what creates careers that are genuinely fulfilling. And healing your success wound is inherently scary because you don't know what exists on the other side of that.

1:13:47Brooke Taylor:You are wondering, isn't this going to take away my edge? And you have to have faith inherently in that. And so there's this quote by Phil Knight, who's the founder of Nike that's on the Knight School of Business at Stanford. And he talks about, I'm going to butcher the quote, but it's in the book. He talks about the fact that there are two types of people, people who turn away from uncertainty and walk back into the known and people who walk towards uncertainty. and he says, I can't tell you which one is right, but I can tell you which one is more fun. And I think there's so much fun in uncertainty.

1:14:16And once you can get there, it's like, wow, the whole world really opens up to you. I really like that quote because so much of career stuff feels arduous and frustrating and to flip it and think about it as fun and joy is very just like enlivening, I think. Me too. I know we take our careers and our lives so seriously, but ultimately it's just all about experimentation and connection. Speaking of very serious, I have some rapid fire questions for you. Okay.

1:14:47Brooke Taylor:Let's hit it. Okay. What is something every woman should try once? My mind went really weird there for a second. You're not the first person to say that. I think I should change this question. I was like, oh no. Okay. What's something that every woman should try once? Working for herself. Really? Why? I think that there's this yearning and curiosity within women to create a culture of their own. And I think that's why we love creating communities, friendship circles, and families. And I think having a creative project in our career, it doesn't have to be a full-time gig, but I think you should work for yourself or create something of your own professionally.

1:15:31No one said that. That's very cool. What is the biggest sacrifice that you've made on your path to healed achievement? Knowing that all my sacrifices were giving up one thing that I thought I needed, but getting everything else.

1:15:46Brooke Taylor:So giving up alcohol, which was something that I thought I needed to get everything else, giving up the sexy title at Google and feeling awkward at dinner parties afterwards, but getting such a sense of validation. I've had to give up everything I felt dependent on in order to get more free. Beautiful. If someone gave you a blank check to start a business or a passion project, what would you do right now? My husband recently started a construction business, and I've been obsessed with boring businesses. And with AI kind of coming up, I want to create something. I would start probably like an electrical business, like something that's actually like physical and of the trades and something in my hands.

1:16:27Brooke Taylor:I just love the, especially with everything being so digital, I'd want to start something physical. What are you most likely to splurge on? A really great handbag. Like I love a designer bag. When was the last time you surprised yourself? I think it's been in this book process, getting to connect with people who I really admire. And as somebody who used to feel like she was an outsider looking in, finally feeling like I belong in a community that I'm excited for, feels surprising in a good way. Beautiful. What is a book, something you've read that really impacted you that you think everybody should read?

1:17:04Brooke Taylor:My Life on the Road by Gloria Steinem. I loved that book. It really did change my life. And just knowing as a woman where we kind of come from and the history that we have in this country, I think is essential. Okay. I'm going to ask you the question, everything question. You tell me when to stop. Stop. Okay. We'll eliminate the book because you just said that. So what is a class, a book, a movie, or a piece of art that completely changed your perspective on life? Illegally blonde. I love this. Why? Well, first of all, one of the characters is named Brooke Taylor. So I was like, this is me. I had this assumption.

1:17:45I don't know where it came from, but that women could only be hot or smart.

1:17:50Brooke Taylor:She genuinely was a model of everything that I wanted to be in the most unexpected package. And I think about Elle Woods every day. Yeah. That's so awesome. Well, Brooke, thank you. This conversation went way longer than it was supposed to, but it's because you're so interesting. So thank you. And thanks for asking me such beautiful questions. Oh, thank you. I loved it. Thank you so much. Such a great conversation.

1:18:18Okay. You know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

1:18:28Thank you.

1:18:55than you think. At Rasmussen University, we find ways to remove barriers, not build them, like a new laptop if you're eligible, and enroll in select online or on-campus programs. That means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. Online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu. Go on, get a little out there into the big heart of Nevada, where you can go off-road and off the map on two lakes or on horseback.

1:19:31Dip into hot springs and dive into deserts. Climb a mountain or make your best effort. See thousands of stars in some of the darkest skies. Stake out haunted hotels. Can you make it to sunrise? There's always something new to see because we've got plenty of space to just be. Plan your trip at TravelNevada.com. Now streaming on Paramount +, the acclaimed series from executive producer Lena Waithe reaches its final chapter, The Chi. For seven seasons, these stories, these streets, this community have stayed with us. Now it all leads to this. As friendships are tested, families evolve, and secrets refuse to stay buried.

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