You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Couples Therapist Vienna Pharaon)

28:07So they've swung the pendulum to say, I want to move through life this way because this way seems safer and better. And arguably, maybe it is safer. But is it better? Has it moved you to a place where you feel healthy, where you feel like you get to say what you need to say and have that be something that is heard and understood? It skips over something really important. The path of integration is something I talk about in the book. And I want people to be aware of the ways in which they do swing the pendulum. Oh my gosh, I never want that. I'll never be like that. I'll never recreate that. And we work so hard to do the opposite because we think the opposite is better than the thing that hurt us or harmed us in the first place.

28:56But if you walk through life and relationship with sort of those horse blinders around you, around your eyes, I think we often lead ourselves just to a new position that isn't exactly what we want either. Because we all know that communication is vital in relationships. We all know that to be authentically expressed in relationship is important. We know that the healing part of this is not the avoidance of hard conversations. It's the ability to have a hard conversation and to trust the other person across from you is able to hear it and hold it and get curious with it and meet you in that moment.

29:38That is what is healing. What is healing is not sidestepping it and avoiding it at all costs and creating a life where you never touch the hot coal. right it's that oh i'm not going to touch the hot coal with my hand but i have these tools that help me get close to this thing it's hot it's hard right it's a little scary but i'm going to show myself we are going to show each other how to do this differently than we had been taught or than we had experienced previously but are you saying that that's opposition or repetition The path of integration is the goal. It's neither, right? Yeah. So repetition blindly, right, is not what we want unless it's something that's healthy.

30:22Right. Right. And then opposition is also not what we want. It's integration. Yeah. Wow. So how do you know if you're choosing someone out of familiarity or out of this is actually right for me? I don't think you know it right away. How fun, right? But I remember when I first started dating Connor and right at the beginning, I was like, this is either going to absolutely rewound me or it's going to be the beautiful love story that I want. And I don't know what it is. And I think one of the things about dating that is important for people to hear is that it's not about actually knowing right out of the gates.

30:59Now, there might be some things that are really easy to spot. Right, right. Okay, fine. but but love and relationships are intricate and they're complex and we don't always know all of the things that we need to know right away and so my goal post for you is not about never entering into something that might be a pattern but you're not quite sure it's about being aware and when you know, then having the capacity to exit. Do you understand what I mean? So not staying in it. Yes. Yes. Okay. Can I ask you a question about this? I stay too long. It's a thing that I'm working on. However, I see a lot of, and I know you do too, like a lot of really awesome women who are aware of their patterns, aware of many of the things that they are wounded by, and still continue to make choices that aren't necessarily integrated.

32:02I kind of put myself in that pile. What is that? There's a difference between knowing versus showing yourself a new way and being able to tolerate it. In our minds, we can connect all of the dots. We can have all the light bulb moments. We can know what the pattern is. We can know where it came from. We might even laugh over a coffee about the fact that I have dated my father and my mother for so many times, right? It's like we might find comedy in it at times. The difference is about showing yourself how to choose differently and to tolerate the consequence of that. And when I say the consequence of that, what I mean is to tolerate the relationship ending or to tolerate not being chosen, to tolerate setting a boundary when you normally wouldn't, to tolerate what happens when you choose not to be in a relationship than just being in one because you have identified that being in one is better than being alone, right?

33:08It's the consequence of the things that we know we ought to be doing. That part is so hard for us to tolerate. When we do those things and follow through on them and experience whatever that consequence is, then we are showing ourselves that we can do it. And that's what expands our ability to move from knowing to showing. I like that. I like that better than doing. One line from your book really stayed with me, right? More likely than not, your past is running the show. And if you're not conscious of it, you're likely suffering from it. A lot of your clients come in saying that I know therapists love talking about childhood, but I don't want to talk about that.

33:49I want to talk about this problem. I'm going to put my mom on blast. She won't go to therapy because she's like, I don't need to go through my whole childhood. Why are we so resistant to the idea that our past is shaping us? I don't think we like to feel out of control. I think this idea that something from decades ago somehow has control over us is not a fun idea for us to swallow. I also think that we're afraid of what the excavation might do. What will I find if I start to dig? I think we have narratives around being grateful, and it confuses the idea that looking at your childhood means that you're ungrateful or you're going to place blame instead of just having respect or gratitude for what they did do is something that moves us away from them.

34:44I think we have generational shifts. So my parents were better than their parents were to them. So I don't have a right to say much. We have wound comparison where people say so and so story is so much worse than mine. So I don't have a right to, you know, acknowledge or claim anything. And I like to move people away from that is not a competition. You know, your wounds are not in competition with somebody else's. This is about acknowledging what your experience was. And back to that quote, understanding how it is running the show because it is running the show. If you have any unwanted patterns in your life current day, it's running the show.

35:24If you are good. Wait, say that again. If you have any unwanted patterns in your life today, it's running the show. That's good. It's true. If your life is peaceful and great. Right. But if there's anything where you have an outsized reaction or you are frustrated that you're doing the same thing over and over again and it's not working, your past is running the show. I keep dating the same types of people even though I know better. I can't set the boundary even though I promised I would. I'm people pleasing even though it doesn't feel good. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Those unwanted patterns, the arrow is pointing back to origin wounds that need our attention.

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39:15Okay, so in the article that I love, I don't even know how to pronounce his name, Alain de Botton, I think. He wrote that the standard question on an early dinner date should be, and how are you crazy? with respect to this man, because I love this article. I hate that question. So I want to ask you yours. Is your question, which wound am I and which one are you? I don't know that that would be my recommendation on a first date ever. I think sometimes we jump into the vulnerability space really early on. And you and I actually had a conversation about this off air, off camera before, where this idea of sort of that forced vulnerability really early on before something is earned is a little strange.

40:04And I think there's - You could tell them why, because we'll give them something to hold on to. So it's like a concrete idea. So years ago, I went on a date with this guy who had this like forced intimacy. He was saying these things to me that made me feel like he was so into it. And I was like, you don't even know me. What are you into? So it felt weird. It didn't settle right. Yeah. So sorry, keep going. No, but that's it, right? It's like this forced intimacy, this forced vulnerability. I think there is a light and fun and kind of playful way to get to know each other and to really titrate that experience, little bits of vulnerability, little bits of intimacy to see how that feels and how it's received.

40:47And maybe you talk a little bit about your family, but not the wounding from your childhood. Maybe something that's just about how you spend your holidays together or what summer activity you do. Something that lets you into what your world looks like without it being the darkest, deepest depths of your soul. Because I do think that it's probably a bit too soon. Yeah. Although I think some people as they get older are like, I just want to let you know, like, here's my baggage. I don't even like that word, but here's what's on the table. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. Yeah. Slow and steady wins the race.

41:28Slow and steady wins the race. I know people who just want to get to the point, but also it still takes a little bit to get to that place where it's actually safe to do that. Because where I started around the definition of being able to love someone is to know them well, deeply. And it's like, I want to be loved by you. I'm going to let you know me right away. But knowing someone is not because you just give them the facts of your life and the details of your story. knowing someone is through hours, time spent, experience together. And so, yeah, I think we can give high level stuff, but ultimately you're just placing your whole story on somebody's plate who's like, I don't even know if I want to hold this yet.

42:24I'm not sure I'm ready for that. So, yes, but look, I think that question is funny and I'm sure he meant, I assume he meant it as a just tell me, you know, what's your crazy and what are your wounds? And look, there's certain things that have been so normalized in our culture over time. Like what's your attachment style or what's your love language? I actually think that that has become a question that people are willing to ask and answer on a first date. Wait, can I talk to you about this? I went on a date where someone asked me that and I thought it was really an invasive question. Well, there you have it.

42:58But here's why. And tell me if you think I'm wrong. I'm so open to feedback always. He asked me the question. First of all, I felt like he had gone to his therapist and was like, what questions should I ask on a date? And then was repeating them. However, he asked it and I was like, I don't want to tell someone on a first date that one of my love languages is physical touch. Like, it's not an invitation for that. I don't want you to think I'm like overly sexualized. It just came with all this baggage. And so I actually was like, I don't want to answer that. Sure. I'm glad that you set that boundary.

43:28I do think a lot of these questions are just, again, like I'm saying, things that need to be earned over a little bit of time. That's such a good word. And I think that those first dates should be fun and playful. Yeah. Yes, of course. Like, oh, here's where I grew up. And those types. If you're curious, you will extract so much from a person without it being intrusive. I think people don't like small talk, but I think use small talk so you can earn big talk. Yeah. What are the signs that you are dating or married to an emotionally immature person? Oh, this topic. I think there's a lot of immaturity in the world.

44:11And it's our job. And look, I'm going to flip that question too, because I also want people to think about it within themselves as well. We all have some immaturity to us. And hopefully we also have some maturity as well. But I don't want us to only think about if I'm dating somebody who is emotionally immature. I want you to also think about the ways in which your immaturity comes to the table. That's a great point. Okay. Again, I am always looking at things relationally. And if our spotlight is on the other person and we're not looking at it within ourselves, we are skipping over something really important there.

44:49Okay. Okay. Emotional maturity is about being able to see your part, see their part, discern the difference. Immaturity goes to a place of defensiveness. It goes on the attack. A lot of times it's sort of this manipulative language of, okay, well then I guess I'm the worst, fill in the blank. Mother, father, partner, child, et cetera, right? So when we go to these places that feel a little bit charged with some drama and manipulation, we've lost the thread. We struggle with emotional maturity because we struggle with shame. We struggle with emotional maturity because we can't hold in both hands, we can't hold in both hands our humanness and our compassion and grace.

45:44So when your feedback to me cues some type of threat, I have failed, I'm a letdown, I am unworthy, I'm imperfect, whatever it is, and those things, there's an association with what that means, that I move into a state of self-protection. defensiveness. Maybe I criticize you. Well, you know what you did last week? That sucked. You're not so perfect, are you? It moves into that place, or it moves into the drama that I was talking about, or it gives the explanation. All of those things are emotional immaturity. I cannot hold your emotional experience while holding mine. I had a very outsized reaction.

46:25I was angry, which is not a feeling I have very often a few weeks ago. And I called my therapist to do like a quote unquote emergency session. She walked me through this exercise. I'd never done this before. And I closed my eyes and she asked me a few questions and she said, whose voice is in your head? And it was my dad's voice. And it was basically the idea was that like, I'm not allowed to feel pain or weakness. Like we are strong. And I was experiencing shame. And that was the reaction. It wasn't anger. It wasn't all these other things. And it was just, it kind of like blew the lid off for me because I realized like, oh, this is the, shame is the underlying thing for all of it.

47:08Like all the wounding, all the, anything you're feeling, like the thing below it is usually shame. And it's somebody's voice. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I think when we start healing those wounds and doing work around it, what happens is that the shame can start to dissipate. And maturity starts to build. And so when someone now tells me that I have hurt them or they didn't like something that I did, when my husband does that, I don't have to go into a state of self-protection. You can sit with the discomfort. Yeah. It's like, oh, okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. I didn't, you know, like I hear you. I get it.

47:56Totally. It's the availability to understanding the person, the door opens. It's like the sea really parts because I don't have to protect myself anymore. You write that a major red flag is when someone consistently overreacts and blows things out of proportion. Why is that a red flag? By a red flag, just something, the arrow that points to the wounding, because the big reaction is letting us know that something historical is present. Yeah. Always. Something historical is there. Yeah. You know, it's like, and the big reaction might be appropriate for that moment. Somebody might have crossed a really significant boundary of yours.

48:41There might be something that is really threatening about this moment. So it's not to say don't have the reaction, right? Whatever is there is there, but let that be an arrow for curiosity. Don't just leave it there. One of the things I love from your work is your feedback framework. And you say healthy couples ask questions that most couples avoid. Do you know them off the top of your head? Oh, gosh. I have them right here. Yeah, I'd love for you to say these. Oh, yeah. They're such good questions. And there's things, we forget to ask them. What's something you have been telling me is important to you that I keep missing or overlooking?

49:23Yeah. Yeah. These are so important. What's something you need from me that I struggle to give? What's something you feel I haven't fully accepted about you? Why is it so hard to give? Oh, that's a you question, right? The last one. How do we get better at giving and receiving? In what way? Ah, the last one. In what ways can I love you better? In what ways can I love you better? And look, of course, these questions need to go both ways. A lot of times you have one partner who's asking these questions or thinking about these things and the other person isn't. But for beautiful, thriving relationships, when you have both people asking these questions and really being willing to receive the feedback.

50:06like that the feedback isn't the thing again that you're like oh self-protection oh the way something i keep missing that you're telling me as important as this um like oh i want to be able to talk about my relationship with my parents you're like but i don't want to hear about your parents yeah that's not going to go very far right it's being able to receive we can ask questions all we want we can ask them left right center if you don't have the capacity to receive the answer the needle will not move you know well said and so you have to do your own individual work yeah so that whatever the feedback is is not something that you have to disconnect from in some way that you can stay present with what that feedback is that is the thing that helps relationships thrive and helps you thrive as a human.

50:59I want to talk to you about some reality shows because I think one of the reasons we love reality TV, particularly dating shows, is we see so many of our romantic patterns play out in real time. So Love is Blind and Love Island are the two big ones right now. And it seems like one person's ready for a real partnership and the other is still operating from a place of insecurity, avoidance, ego, maybe a wound. Why do you think that scenario in particular where one person is ready and one person is not continues to play out on screen? Well, I do think you're right that we're seeing the mirror of our own lives and our own experiences.

51:36But here's the thing. If you're actually ready, and you finally realize what I was saying before, that the other person isn't, then your readiness has to meet that moment, which says, then we're not the right match. And I'm not going to keep trying and trying and trying and trying and trying and trying at the cost and expense of myself. And so it's the, I know better. I know what I ought to do. I'm ready. But you're not ready until your readiness can meet that moment and you can pivot towards what is aligned for you. Like the extension of what your healing is saying, if that makes sense. Do you watch any of these shows?

52:17I have. I don't know that I'm current, but I have watched both. Which makes you eye roll the most? I love them. You do? I do. I love them. I appreciate watching those shows and anything relational I think is interesting to me. Now, some of it is, you know, sometimes you're cheering for someone. Sometimes you're cringing on the sofa and you can see it so clearly, but I appreciate people, you know, some of them, I'm sure they're doing it for different motives, but the people who are really there. Not for the right reasons. Not for the right reasons. Exactly. Do you think they like play out these sort of like toxic patterns or they're just reflecting current dating culture?

53:03I think it's just reflecting dating culture. I'm sure the people who are choosing who's on, you know, they're going for that probably. Yeah. Like I wonder what the casting is like for the show. We have friends of mine and I have joked about throwing myself into the ring and saying that they need a therapist on these shows to actually try to support. They do. They need a therapist in the news to take all the news on CNN and harness it for people. And they need a therapist on these reality shows. You know who does? I've been on Two Black Girls and a Rose, their show. Yes, I love that. Me too. And they do a lot of therapists on the show to break down what's going on.

53:48And I love their material. What would you say to parents who want to model healthy relationships for their kids in their house? Keep doing your own work. You're not going to be perfect ever. Obviously, we've heard that so many times before. A lot of times parents, especially now, are saying, you know, I don't want to pass this pain or I don't want to screw up my kids. And most people will say, well, you will screw up your kids. And there's no way to avoid that. But I think it's about getting to that place where you continue to do your own work. You continue to do your own excavation. You are mature enough as a parent to be able to receive their feedback.

54:25You're able to see your humanness and hold the compassion and grace and accountability, ownership, responsibility. You're willing to apologize, that you're willing to do all of those things to be relational with them. Those are the things that model it. And then relationally, partner to partner, it's like, yeah, you are their model. You are the person I always say to people, the clients of mine who have children, like your kids are going to be on some therapist's sofa 25 years from 20 years from now, 30 years from now. What do you want them to say about their childhood? You know, what are they going to say about their childhood?

55:06And that can be a confronting question, right? That can be a really confronting question. But what needs to shift in order for what you want them to say to be what they say? That's a great question. What needs to shift? That's very cool. So the article says we will marry the wrong person. I feel like listening to you, that's not true. We meet people who hopefully help us pay attention to and heal our wounds. That's right. And it doesn't always happen that way. A lot of times we are in partnership where we're not doing any work. And so it probably does feel, quote unquote, wrong. But I think that relationships, we've heard this before, partnership and children, our greatest teachers, our greatest mirrors.

55:52And if you have people who are willing to roll up their sleeves, then something really beautiful can happen from that space. If you're with somebody long enough, life is hard. There are a lot of challenges. It's not a walk in the park. It's not that honeymoon phase for a very long time. Different chapters of life will have you face lots of different things. And as I said before, choosing someone who you're willing to go through the hard with, I think is one of the great indicators for good success in a relationship. And choosing someone you're willing to go through hard with. the good the easy the fun the light the traveling together all of that of course i wish that upon everyone i hope that you have fun with the person you choose i want you guys to belly laugh i want you to enjoy traveling together i want you to light each other up i want you to support each other's dreams great you are going to face hardship yeah and you need to be able to go through the hard together and come out the other side one of my favorite definitions of secure healthy relationship is from a colleague, Dewey Freeman.

57:00And he says, secure, healthy partnership is about going through hard times, remaining in contact and coming out the other side. Okay. What is one question that every listener should ask themselves tonight about the family that they came from and the love they're trying to build? I'm not even going to preface it. What did you need most in your childhood that you didn't get? wow and let yourself rattle around with it and do your best not to say it's a good one it was great it was amazing i i didn't need they did they did so well right just name it what did you need most that you didn't get no explanation no caveat no nothing just say a sentence put a period at the end and then sit with it and pause with it and notice the sensations in your body as i see in yours.

57:53Just notice what happens there. Be willing if you have it. And look, some people might not be ready to answer that question. Part of this is about capacity. Part of this is about being able to tolerate whatever the answer is, right? That I can actually sit with the answer. But if you answer that question honestly, if you get to a point where you can answer that question, Honestly, it is going to point you to some really beautiful work. You will see that answer showing up in your relationship's present day.

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1:01:42Should you marry the best sex of your life? No. A celebrity couple most likely to make it. Timothee Chalamet and Kylie or Travis and Courtney? Oh my gosh. You're like, I don't care. I don't care. To make it, I'm going to go Kylie and Timothee if I had to choose one. Spinning the block, aka revisiting a relationship, is it wise or a waste of time? Usually a waste of time. Second chances are just patterns if there's been no growth and healing. That's a word. Okay, what do the healthiest couples understand that everybody else misses? Gratitude, appreciation, constantly. I know it seems basic. We forget about it.

1:02:31gratitude, appreciation, acknowledgement, having the conversations, not letting things go on and on and on when you're upset about them, name it. There's something called the low negativity threshold in couples research, Gottman's research about how the healthiest couples, they have a low negativity threshold. It means that the amount of negativity that rises within the relationship is before they say something about it is low and not high. The healthiest couples have a low one. So we don't just kick it down the curb. We don't just brush it off our shoulder when something upsets you, it bothers you, you're upset by something, you say it, you name it, you squash it, you move on from it so that you are not harboring things so that resentment is not building and growing.

1:03:15Okay, last ones. Female proposals, bold or backwards? I mean, do you, but I'd want to know what the reason is behind it. Like, what's, yeah what's driving this because sometimes you know is it is it performative is it coming from a like what's what is driving it it feels important to answer that's a good question what's something every woman should try once whatever first comes to your mind

1:03:47what is something going for their dreams a book you read that changed your life something you think everybody should read? Awareness. I've never heard of it. It's a great book. Okay. And I will revisit it over and over and over again. Yeah. And the question everything question from the card game that I pulled was, what is something about you that sounds made up, but is 100 % true? Oh, I played the violin at Whitney Houston's wedding. I'm sorry. At her wedding? To Bobby Brown. Not made up. I know. That's a good one. That's a really good one. It's a good one. Like if you said that during Two Truths and a Lie, I would think you for sure made that up.

1:04:34That's a lie. I know it's so out there, right? Was it a good wedding? Yeah, I was so young, but it was a very beautiful wedding for the parts that I got to be there for. Vienna, you're amazing. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

1:04:54Okay. You know what time it is. Today's a good day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.

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