Civil War 2.0? Tom Bilyeu on the American Divide

30:37Yeah. I mean, this is where the blockchain, I hope, will play a major role in authenticating whether something is real or not. I simply do not see a way around. You have to authenticate things. You have to. And so if you don't do that, if you don't train the populace that when you see a video, you check the watermark or whatever, and that every platform, like with DCMA on YouTube, it's just built into the platform itself. And it says, yes, this was generated from where it claims to be. And if it wasn't generated from where it claims to be, it either just flags it and quarantines it or it marks it in just like all capital letters somewhere that, hey, this is, it doesn't match.

31:19So that seems like a must. We have the technology to do it. It just becomes a question of whether the platforms are going to integrate that technology or not. Barring that you have catastrophe. Not in time, they're not, not in time. Yeah. I mean, look, it'll be a sliding scale for sure. There's going to be a few years of just getting your head beaten in. We're obviously already seeing it with the 2024 election where there were fake robocalls being made. You're going to see more of that. You constantly see stuff where Elon Musk is, you know, it's somebody having him supposedly say a thing. You'll see it with Trump.

31:55You'll see it with Harris. So, yeah, I mean, you're going to see it, but we're still a little ways away from industrial scale where it is indistinguishable. So for anybody that feels clever right now, because you can distinguish, trust me, in three to five years, that is, it just won't be possible to tell. Yeah, interesting enough, I'm actually training a video rel that is, you just talk to it and ask it any questions about anything. I've fed it books, my entire Twitter feed, every video I've ever made, everything. and so you get to speak to it now at first i'm sure it'll be a bit laggy and you know it won't be perfect but it'll be the worst it'll ever be it also changes the nature of media and media consumption because it goes from a one-to-many world which will still exist because people like to talk about the thing that they saw but it goes to a one-to-one world where you know in five years time every viewer of impact theory will be having a different experience because they're talking to you like i am now thinking your brains what have you been interested in and you don't need to be involved it's it's going to get really weird on a brother as a game developer as a game developer i think about that a lot the more i develop a video game the more i become convinced we actually are living in a simulation.

33:23And if we're not, I will tell you that if you were going to build a simulation, it ends up exactly like the world that we're in now, where it's all physics driven, and then everything else happens sort of deterministically based on the physics. So you said something, I wrote it down. It's like, what did you call the universe? Non-deterministic. No, the universe is deterministic. I think we are just building your balls. What do you mean by this? Okay, so I think the universe has a set of rules and everything is born out of that and that's it. And so there is no way for any human to have true free will because you're always in the context of what came just before, whether neurochemically, the construction of your biology, the way that things move through a space based on physics, all of that.

34:20And even if you, because a lot of people try to say, well, free will happens in the quantum fluctuations. That's not free will, that's randomness. So introducing randomness to a deterministic system does not suddenly make it free will. Free will just seems that there's a book called Determined by a man whose name, for some reason I am once, Robert Sapolsky, thank the Lord. And he literally, every conceivable argument that somebody could throw at him. The book is long as hell. He just goes one by one through every single conceivable angle that you could try to sneak free will in. It is utterly convincing.

34:57And I'm just like, yeah, that all makes sense to me because if you truly had free will, you would be sitting outside of physics because you wouldn't be beholden to your emotional state. And your emotional state obviously is tied to all your biology. Your biology is tied to all the physics. And so it is just one string of one chain reaction, essentially. It's cause and effect all the way down. So I've been thinking, yeah, not on dissimilar lines. For example, everything is code. And the world gets populated by these microbes that have RNA and DNA. And before you know it, they divide and builds all of this but then when you look at and his giving was slightly freaky but we're going down these conversations when you look at the both the solar system or the maps of the universe it just looks like a giant neural network and it's got me more and more thinking that that what religion has been saying for years for thousands of years is that it is all connected and it's all connected via physics and part of the physics we still don't really understand what is dark matter stuff like that but there's some connection between all of this that there is an element of universal consciousness whatever that means and i've been going down a rabbit holes on x and elsewhere about there's a thesis that goes around which is just interesting some of these models are starting to show elements of consciousness now nobody humans say well they can't be humans but doesn't have to be a human to be conscious right a whale is conscious or an ant is conscious but in its own way and that these models were less of an invention and more of a discovery of how to tap into universal knowledge because this is a part of universal knowledge because everything on the internet is all of the knowledge that we've got and we talk about and that this whole thing is interconnected, which kind of fits in with this deterministic universe idea that maybe it's all part of something much bigger.

37:14Yeah, consciousness is the big mystery. So I'm not particularly fascinated by the question around consciousness, but panpsychism to me feels like that's not going to pan out, but I'm certainly not the guy to argue. you but i don't understand people that push back on the idea that it's simply a layering of neurons question i think yes if you build a sufficiently complex system that it will have the inner workings in which to build a representative model of itself so that it can then have experience because ultimately all consciousness is is it feels like something to be ralph hall tom bilyeu uh and does it feel something to be an llm we don't know because we look at it in a anthropomorphic way when in fact why should we so anyway it was just it's something that i've been puzzling as we see this whole world open up in front of us that world of ai that it may completely restructure how we think about everything that is for sure and i think that you don't even have to go that far like if you really want to freak yourself out i was just talking to a guest about this and I could not get him to go with me.

38:25Let's see if I can drag you into these waters. So, all right, again, game developer, right? I'm building these games. This isn't something we're building today, but this is on a roadmap where you create characters that are LLMs. They have a growing connection with you. And so they learn you, they remember the interactions with you. And so now how you treat them will matter. And if you've seen that new commercial for the AI friend that you can just wear like this necklace that watches all the things you do, multimodal, and you really begin to develop a relationship with it. Well, we're going to put things exactly like that inside of a video game.

39:03And so now you really begin to have persistent relationships, unique, persistent relationships. Non-player characters become player characters, essentially. Correct. Now imagine as that technology gets better, it's going to be embodied in a sex robot. So now imagine a stat that your audience may or may not know, but we have twice as many female ancestors as male ancestors because a smaller number of men got a larger number of women pregnant. So one guy was getting multiple women pregnant, which means throughout human history, there have been guys that just were not able to get laid. Now, usually you get these, they call it the excess mail problem.

39:49So you get these guys, surplus mail, excuse me. So you get these guys, they're not able to enter the mating pool because women are just like, I'm not having it. Those guys would normally go off on war. The theory is that that's what Vikings were, is they weren't able to get women in their hometown. So it was like, well, go Maraud. And your biggest prize was women. And so when you create this evolutionary reality that half, at least half, there were times where the ratio post-agriculture goes as high as 17 to 1. So for every 17 women reproducing, only one guy is getting them all pregnant. And so in those moments, you can imagine guys just go crazy and you've got to deal with them.

40:34They send them off to war, whatever. Okay, in this moment, it's not happening. So guys aren't able to enter the mating market, and yet they're not riding in the streets. The military can't recruit. And so people are asking, why not? And the quick answer seems to be that pornography, video games, they're able to have these crazy, amazing pursuits inside of video games, and that fulfills that part of pursuit and getting better. and I think in the very near future, they're going to be able to have relationships with AI that for a guy that would not otherwise be able to get a girl, this is gonna be a huge win.

41:16You have an AI that cares about you, that understands you, that knows you, that remembers your history, knows what you're into. You may not even really have secrets from them and so they know your deepest, darkest secrets and they still love and care about you and i think people are going to take to that like a duck takes to water have you been following character ai uh no not by that name anyway i don't recognize it what is it fucking mind so you go to character ai and there's anime characters and other characters this character ai.com yeah or character.ai something like that um and there's even psychologists there these are all models and many of these anime characters whether they're hero figures girlfriend figures boyfriend figures very anime very kind of idealized have 100 million users some of these i am not surprised many of them with 100 and this has been going for less than a year it is exploding this whole Reddit forums of kids getting angry when the model changes and the model at the, when the actual underlying model changes and their character doesn't love them as much or is not expressing the same things or doesn't have persistent memory.

42:37And they're getting hugely upset. Like they've been jilted by a lover. And this thing, I think I hadn't noticed this. I stumbled across it and I I realized this has actually been probably the largest application of AI LLMs. We're all missing it because we're not of that age, but it's teams. And as to your point, the better this gets with video and all of that, that blurring between what is only fans, what is, what is pornography? What is prostitution? What is friendship? What is girlfriend, boyfriend relationship? The whole fucking thing is nuked. nuked dude everything is going to change so hard it's it this truly is the corner we cannot see around now i think virtually every big change like this has second and third order consequences that are absolutely terrifying so i don't want to paint the picture that i'm just like oh my god this is amazing um but there there are going to be upsides to this which is why people will adopt it like crazy.

43:42And I think we haven't even begun to explore some of the weirdnesses. So for anybody that was as aghast by, was it Gemini, Google's Gemini, when it came out and it was like, show me the founding fathers. And it was black women. You're like, what is happening? That shows you the hand of the designer. And so my wife has shaped me tremendously. I'm literally a different person for having married her than I would have become had I never met her. And so now the same will be true of your AI. Depending on how your AI is programmed to the people on Reddit who are getting furious when they change the model, it matters.

44:19And it can be changed. And it will have a human hand in it, at least in the beginning. And so do we want people creating an AI that's designed to effectively manipulate us, hopefully for the better, but in a direction? And what do we do about that? Do we make them make that decision tree open source so we can at least see how we're being manipulated? Can we choose the manipulation? If we pick, I want algorithm QR instead of algorithm ST, whatever. But you end up getting to pick the one that you want. Is it going to be something like that? How many people will be being shaped by an AI and not even realize it, right?

45:04So you're being shaped by AI in your feeds right now. Most people don't even realize that the replies on the feeds that they're looking at are displayed to them in a different order than they are somebody else because of the algorithm. It's nuts, and it's going to accelerate. Yeah. But there again, we've always been manipulated. We started this conversation saying pretty much everything we do is manipulated by narrative. and is it any different being told by a politician or being told by an ai that that has some ai will they have freedom probably in some respects so it's creating this thing i don't know but it's the one thing i do know is it's going to happen for the reasons you said there's enough lonely people in the world that this will happen the other thing that leads to is population collapse and this has been really interesting because elon's been talking about this and i don't think people have thought it through what he's trying to say the more the population shrinks the more we are economically incentivized to build more ai and more robots the more we are likely to destroy all of humanity because it becomes this game of if you want to keep the economic machine going you need ai and robots for productivity because you've got less humans and so therefore the more AI and the more robots the more people are using character AI for their boyfriends and girlfriends the less procreation the faster the thing accelerates and before you know it we're completely overwhelmed by the AI and the robots and we play a much smaller role and they're incentivized to get better and better and better so that's the end of humanity now we could merge with the machines obviously but yeah which is utterly fascinating that the same guy that's warning people hey you better have kids is the guy that's also making sure that we can brain interface so that we can keep up uh it's really fascinating to me because he's he's building ai and he's doing the brain interface whilst trying to sue open ai which he started saying ai bad while scaling ai it's like none of this makes sense?

47:19Well, so I think it's actually interesting in that I think that's the only logical way forward. You are not going to be able to stop AI. It really isn't possible. And when I step back and look at, there's an algorithm embedded into the human brain that says technology can make tomorrow better than today. And I want that. And so we move in this one directional way, barring absolute catastrophe for anybody that knows the younger Dryas hypothesis that there was a previously advanced civilization, probably nowhere near us, but an advanced civilization that was absolutely obliterated by a comet or who knows what.

48:01And civilization completely rebooted. And that's where you get all the myths of the floods. So barring that though, we move in just this one way line and we're never going back. And so you're going to see technology just get implemented more and faster. And so it's possible that because of that quirk of human minds seeking technology to make tomorrow better than today, it is inevitable that we are a midwife for AI. And as a human, obviously that's deeply disturbing. but ultimately you know as of right now we're all going to die anyway so it's like do we do we care if as long as it's conscious do we care if it's synthetic or biological and that's my point i don't think we do and i think we're going to go down this path regardless there is there's so much incentivization for this to happen that it will happen one of the things that i think is that what we think of now as the polarization of people i think we split in a accelerationist decelerationist i you know those of us who want to use the technology embrace it and become at one with it you know the reason you're wearing an aura ring or the reason we're using iphones or the reason i've got my apple watch on or the reason yeah all of this stuff right is us moving that way there's a whole bunch who are going to be decelerationists and say we don't have anything to do with that and there's a fork in humanity coming here because these the technologies will evolve in a different way than the non-technologists which is kind of crazy to think but we see an evolutionary split that could happen in humanity and and soon yeah i think you and i talked about this before i wrote a comic book about that very thing called neon future about the bifurcation where humanity is gonna pull apart so you'll get people that are gonna adopt neural link they'll take superhuman abilities.

50:03They'll develop AI as rapidly as they can. And then you're going to get Puritans on the other side that I have a feeling will pull basically like what the Amish did. And they're just going to say, I'm going to plant a flag in 1992. And that's it. We don't deal with any technology that's more advanced than 1992. I don't care if it's a hundred years from now, 200 years from now, that's it. That's where we're at. And hopefully that split is amicable, but i have a feeling there will be blood yeah i don't think you know part of me just thinks what happens in neanderthal man versus homo sapiens correct probably killed them in one way shape or form so yeah that that's something that lies ahead so the other part of what you've been working very hard on is gaming and we've talked about this here at real vision before but it keeps moving forward this is the project kaizen right that is it yes talk to me about it where you are and what you're doing why you're so excited about it i'm a non-gamer so i don't i get it oh man i'm not a gamer dude gaming so uh I get why people are worried about games because they are so compelling as an art form that there really isn't anything like it.

51:31So I can sum up my fascination with gaming with the following idea. I believe that there are aliens. I do not believe aliens have ever come to Earth. The reason I believe that is once you can build virtual worlds, there is far more to explore inside of virtual worlds than there is in the vast emptiness of space. So space is hostile. Space makes you deal with radiation and effectively time travel where you have to harness enough energy to bend space and time. You don't have those problems with a simulation. simulation so you can go inside the simulation and if you're either you yourself are a digital being uh which we were just talking about and then we're probably going to give uh you know give birth to artificial intelligence which is a digital being uh or your body is connected via your nervous system to the simulation and so you actually experience the simulation uh once that's true now literally with a couple lines of code anybody anywhere can be creating these worlds It's largely procedurally based.

52:36So it will be a world that's literally unique to you that you can go in and influence the ways that you want. You could experience one set of physics in the morning, a completely different universe with different physics in the night. Just, it will be insane. Populated by NPCs, but they're conscious AI. And so you'll be able to have as deep of a relationship with them as you could with anybody. And again, is this in five years or 500 years? I don't know, but this is where it goes. And so given that, given that it's already the most profound art form, entertainment platform right now, given that right now, as we are recording this, there's probably about 300 ,000 people.

53:17Okay, that's a real number. There's approximately 300 ,000 people right now watching other people play Grand Theft Auto V. Okay, that's just one game. There's a whole bunch of other people watching a whole bunch of other games. Those are just people watching. So there's also a gaggle of people playing. People are so enamored by the detail that you can put into essentially a fake world. So Grand Theft Auto V has built a simulation. Imagine being able to open every door, go in every room, go in a hospital, walk up floors, sit on the hospital bed, go into a bank, go into a bar, go to a strip club, all of it, okay?

53:59It's 180th the size of Los Angeles. It is absolutely gigantic. In game, it will take you, I don't know how many hours to drive from one end of town to the other. It is absolutely massive. And so people effectively will live inside of that game seven, eight hours a day. Now I get it. Some people hear something very dystopian in that. They're not wrong to raise an eyebrow. They're not wrong to say, I really need to see what the second and third order consequences of this are before I let my kids spend that much time. Heard, I totally understand. And what I want them to recognize is there are already people making millions of dollars a year playing inside of these games, streaming, winning competitions, all that.

54:41It's a gigantic ecosystem with its own set of celebrities, its own set of personalities, in some ways, their own cultures. And when I read Ready Player One, I was like, oh, yeah, this is the future. My job as a game developer, and this is what we're building with Project Kaizen, I'm building a container. and I want you, dear player, to come in and create inside of this container. And my job is to build the rule set, to build a really interesting rule set that rewards you for coming in and creating inside of this space and to make it interesting, more interesting than real life, hopefully rewarding in many ways.

55:19And that is what gets me enticed is when I imagine that future, it's thrilling. Now, I personally, I'm just old enough to not want to completely live in it, but by way of having this opportunity to when I want to be entertained in a far deeper, far enriching way than scrolling on my phone or watching a movie, it's like truly interactive where I can go build, create, express myself, meet people, engage. I want to create that. I want to facilitate that. it is it's the greatest joy of my professional career the greatest joy of my artistic career it's the thing that has engaged me body mind more than anything i've ever done for sure i mean incredible but surely it's one of the most difficult things you've ever attempted it is because there are many games brutal and many games don't engage people you know it's that because you've got to get your vision out and hope that your vision aligns with other people's i yeah i'd like to explore this world how do you think about that in terms of the game gameplay and the and the immersive experience and the just how does that all come together that you're not shitting yourself every night thinking what have i done two and a half years ago when I started this, had I known that the light at the end of the tunnel was an oncoming train, I would not have gone down this path.

56:54The first year of game development is brutal. It was so brutal. I was working 120 hours a week. I was miserable. I was stressed so badly that I was getting vertigo. It was really, really bad. And so my wife pulled me aside and was like, you're now damaging our marriage. And it's the second time she's had to point that out in our 22 years together. And so I said, look, I'll find my way back to you. And so that really became about, okay, for the first year, I just didn't know what I was doing. Everything was blunt force trauma. It was just throwing more hours at it, more time. And I by then had accumulated enough knowledge to now know what's hard, what's easier, how do we structure this?

57:35And so we started putting systems in place. So now I'm back to a normal work week. We've got institutional knowledge. And the reality is that game development as a newbie is very much like begging someone to punch you in the mouth because you learn. So there's this great article written called Fuck Doors. And the reason that the article is titled Fuck Doors is when you go to put a door inside of a video game, you realize how many decisions you have to make just about a door. How close does a hand have to get to the knob before you trigger it to open? Does it swing in? Does it swing out? Can it swing both ways?

58:14Does it close when you walk through it? Does it stay open? Like just on and on and on and on and on. But as you build, and this is one of the great things about Unreal Engine, is as somebody solves a problem, because it's code, you now have it and can reuse it. So I don't have to make that decision. I just go grab the code for door that opens one way, door that opens two ways. And so Unreal Engine has done an unbelievable job of baking in a lot of physics. And so already, I just owe a debt of gratitude to them because we've been able to now in the last 10 months, we've done more in the last 10 months than we did in the first two years for sure by far.

58:53And so you build the guts. That's the hard part. This is damaging your marriage part of the a journey. But once you have that, now you can start layering on top. Now you can open it up to players and let them create. And so that's a big part of the Kaizen vision is this is not a world that will be built by me and my team. This is a world that will be built by the players. And look, the most obvious outcome is that our game sucks and nobody plays it. That's the most obvious outcome. And I face that every day, but I long ago gave up on being a cool entrepreneur that that just is amazing out of the gate.

59:30I'm an iterative entrepreneur. I give you something that sucks and slowly over time, I make it better and I just don't quit. And that's been my calling card forever. And how real and immersive is this situation going to be? Because the technology is not at all very fast. Yeah, yeah. We're not trying to be that. That's Grand Theft Auto 6. If you want to blow your mind, go watch the trailer for that. It is unbelievable. There are parts of that trailer that you're like, wait, that had to have been real footage. So they're building a realistic simulator. What we're building is something based on basically information theory.

1:00:08So information theory says everything is a simulation. If everything really is a simulation, then there almost certainly is the multiverse. And what if you could map the multiverse and jump around literally from universe to universe? So our idea is players will either build inside of a universe that either we created as a company or somebody else creates, or they will build their own universe. And because of the design of the game, we'd be able to, just like you're loading into a new game, you would walk up to a portal, you would click it, the game would be like, this will take a minute because we're effectively exiting one game and loading up a new one, and then you go into it.

1:00:44And obviously there are massive engineering challenges and things we'll have to overcome over time. Right now, what we'll be launching with on August 22nd is some, it's a very simple set of game loops because we're very early. We're still probably three years away from like a full-fledged game. Right now, we're what we call Meebas. So for anybody that knows a MOBA, which are these massive online battle arenas, ours is a mini battle arena. So what we needed was a mechanism where we could create game modes very quickly, give them to players and say, which of these game modes do you like? So that we put energy where the players are actually going, what they're actually playing as we build in the background towards the larger vision of this really big container.

1:01:31But at launch, players will have already submitted, player created and submitted maps that we will put into the game. So even at launch, it isn't just us creating this stuff. We have map building partners that right now are building maps and we have to go through a technological process on the back to vet it to make sure that it you know it's not going to crash code and stuff like that um but yeah to see how much faster we'll be able to iterate because the the actual community is building part of the game effectively so that leads me into the the part which is well now you've got to build a new community you built a community around impact theory this is now a new community yep so this is a whole nother set of things you need to learn and who these people are because they're not necessarily impact theory viewers sure some are they might bootstrap it but but you've got a what the how the hell are you going to do that because you also here's the good news you understand the importance so i'm just interested in how you're going to go about it Well, Raoul, as you well know, I am a moron who cannot force himself to only do one thing.

1:02:46I would be much bigger if I did. But because I have built so many disparate communities, which I do not advise, but if you're going to do something stupid, you might as well learn from it. Because I've had to do this now so many times, building a new community for us is like by rote. Like we know how to do this very easy. There are simple formulas that you can use and follow. and so we're just running that playbook now and now that we finally have game loops that people can play you'll see in earnest over the next call it 12 months we'll build that community and it's hilarious because if i put a video out on youtube i get roughly 10 million views a month on youtube if i go live stream me playing fortnight on twitch i'll get average 10 viewers per session so it is hilarious to me but this is the point is you've now gone you're now becoming a twitch streamer because you have to have a whole different medium to reach the community that you want to grow and so there's tom suddenly now as a twitch streamer playing games i mean yeah that's a big kind of 360 or 180 to do yet again and yet another medium because the game is another medium twitch is another medium podcast was another medium building a business was another medium the education they're all different mediums that you've had to learn why do you do this okay well the honest answer to that and and i'm being very serious i have a flaw in my biological makeup that for whatever reason i i cannot enjoy my life and only be one note i just can't do it And it would be much better for business.

1:04:26I would make substantively more revenue if I just went and taught people how to build business. That'd be it, right? Leave quest, start an educational company that shows people how to build businesses. I would be, it would be an eight or nine figure business at this point, just so, so simply. But I wouldn't enjoy it. And so I would constantly get bored and frustrated. And so the whole punchline to why I got into business in the first place was to build a media studio. But the cash outlay that you need to do that is just ungodly. I knew that I had an opportunity to leverage my experience, to build a YouTube channel.

1:05:03I was wrong about what percentage of that would join me in the creative endeavor. I thought it would have been, say, 20, 30%. In reality, it's a half of a percent. And so I would have used a different strategy had I known that going into it, but I didn't. And so here we are. But the problem is every time we build a community, it's a multimillion dollar business. So it's like you spin these things up. They're incredibly lucrative. And so now we're just like, okay, no new things. As we say, we've got the communities that we have now it's about scaling those up. So I'm not doing new things per se, but we've been working on this product now for, like I said, two and a half years.

1:05:43We're now at the point where we have enough that we can build the community and they'll stay. uh and so so begins the journey that we knew two and a half years ago we would have to embark on uh building this community and so some of it will be built with me and then others will be built with other personalities that we build up but again we just we know production so well we know this kind of thing we know how to build a community we know how to do the social support around it all that stuff so now it's just a game of do we have the institutional bandwidth to execute and also it it closes a loop from your life which is you started your life as a storyteller in the purest form the movie industry and here you are going back to that but in the newer format of gaming which is essentially superseded the entire film industry and so by far you're really closing that loop for yourself almost maybe that was the bit that you didn't succeed at that it was always scratched at you somewhere and you've gone back to her and said you know what i want to close this loop as well brother if i pull this off you have no idea how much it'll be like oh my god when i was 12 years old i said i'm gonna do this thing and if i pull it off I will have marched so diligently and so persistently through brutal pain and suffering at times and made it.

1:07:14It's like, just for the story, I so want to pull this off. Now I'm way too aware, like I said earlier, that failure is the most likely outcome. But man, is it going to make a good story if i if i pull this off so we'll see i'm just a huge believer is you can manifest your own destiny and if you've got somewhere you're headed to you'll generally end up somewhere close to it it may not be exactly what you had in your mind but the amazing thing is is you've basically even though you've done a bit of this on route you've been going to that place so listen as ever Best of luck with it all. Good luck with the next phase of the launch.

1:07:56I will go and watch you on Twitch just to laugh and add some comments when there's only 10 people in the chat room. Because I've never done that before. It'll be fun. But thank you as ever stopping by and chatting. It's always brilliant to pick your brain. Loved it. Thanks, brother. Always love the time. So as you can see, a great conversation as ever with Tom. Wide ranging, drifting here, there and everywhere. But really, Tom's fears, and I've talked with Tom about this before, his fears of things getting out of control or uglier are ever present. Now, I'm much more of an optimist. I think we solve these problems, but I don't discount them.

1:08:34I don't discount how disgruntled people are. And it's clear that I may have reasons why I think that this is happening. Others think for different reasons. And we have to wait and see and have to be tolerant. The election is going to be really hard for everybody, even us non-Americans who have to see our friends go through the emotional turmoil of what it does as social media splits people into two camps and turns them against each other, dumbing everything down to instant narratives of they're morons and they're morons. and I just urge all of you to keep a cool head step back observe where you're being manipulated and by whom and trust me you're being manipulated by everybody once you see that it's much easier to deal with anyway good luck out there and I'll see you next time with somebody else to learn from in the meantime pop across to realvision.com and sign up if you are on real vision and you want to to know more about this technology, this line of thinking about where technology is going, then do try and take a free trial of the exponentialist.

1:09:42It's in the marketplace. It's something I'm immensely proud of where David, Matt and myself take the really deep dive, the real thinking in what is going on in technology, what it means for society, our jobs, our businesses, how we can invest in it, where the risks are, and also just an update, what the hell's going on because it's moving so fast. So that's in the Real Vision market, place the exponentialist anyway i'll see you all next time make large crypto trades with crackin otc execute orders of more than a hundred thousand off the open exchange through our premium otc trading service get 24 7 access to deep liquidity minimal slippage and competitive execution and settlement services private and secure trading options include chatting securely with our trade desk for a personalized high touch service or use our self-service rfq for super fast automated otc trading.

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