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Podcast Summary: Raoul Pal: The Journey Man - Episode: Crypto Gathering Finale
Episode Overview In this episode of The Journeyman, Raoul Pal and Ash Bennington engage in a comprehensive discussion surrounding the current state of the cryptocurrency market. They explore whether we are witnessing a genuine bull run or if it's merely wishful thinking, especially in light of recent market events. The conversation reflects on insights gained throughout the Crypto Gathering, focusing on macroeconomic implications, investment opportunities, and the convergence of technology with finance.
Key Topics Discussed
- Market Sentiment and Recent Developments
- Bullish Momentum: Raoul Pal has maintained a bullish outlook on the crypto market, highlighting recent positive events, including favorable ETF rulings and regulatory clarity, which bolster market confidence.
- Regulatory Rulings: The ruling in favor of Ripple has revitalized interest in XRP, which experienced significant price fluctuations, contributing to market optimism.
- Metcalfe's Law and Crypto Valuation
- Raoul discusses using Metcalfe's Law to value cryptocurrencies, correlating network activity with valuation, and how XRP's usage drives its value despite criticisms from the Bitcoin community.
- The Exponential Age
- Raoul introduces the concept of the Exponential Age, a period characterized by rapid technological adoption across various sectors, including crypto, AI, and digital identity.
- He argues that this convergence of technologies will redefine many aspects of life and economies over the next 10 to 15 years, potentially solving major societal challenges.
- The Everything Code
- Explains the Everything Code thesis, which posits that monetary debasement and liquidity from central banks will continue to drive asset prices, particularly crypto and tech, until around 2026.
- Community Dynamics and NFTs
- The discussion touches on the state of NFTs, exploring their role as community assets versus traditional art investments. Raoul suggests that community-based NFTs may hold more value in the digital age, akin to social status symbols.
- Future Insights and Predictions
- Raoul emphasizes the importance of recognizing opportunities within the technological shifts, advocating for an optimistic outlook on the future of finance through decentralized systems.
Key Takeaways
- Positive Market Dynamics: Recent rulings and market movements suggest a shift toward bullish sentiment in crypto markets, particularly with XRP.
- Technological Convergence: The intersection of AI, blockchain, and other technologies may lead to unprecedented changes in society and finance.
- Investment Philosophy: Investors are encouraged to consider lifestyle-oriented goals in conjunction with market trends when deciding to take profits.
- Community Potential in NFTs: NFTs can foster community engagement and redefine social interactions in a digital context.
Closing Thoughts Raoul Pal embodies a forward-looking perspective on finance, emphasizing the necessity for individuals to adapt and engage with the evolving landscape of technology and investment. His insights provide a hopeful outlook for the future, highlighting the transformative potential of cryptocurrencies and decentralized finance.
For a deeper exploration of the discussed themes and access to further content from the Crypto Gathering, listeners are encouraged to visit Real Vision.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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0:43That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash G-O slash R-E-A-L-B-I-S-I-O-N.
0:57Hey everyone, if you like this podcast, go behind the paywall to get privileged access to the smartest minds in finance. Join the Real Vision community and learn how to become a better investor. Visit realvision.com slash RVpod and use the promo code podcast10, that's podcast10, to get 10 % off our essential membership for the first year. Now, to the top analysis of today's crypto markets. What is going on, guys? It looks like Raoul Pal is in the house. Raoul, welcome. Great to be here, Ash. Just got straight off the interview with Ovi. Say again, Raoul? I just came straight off the Real Vision Crypto Daily Briefing with Ovi.
1:39So apologies for your lateness. Well, it's great to have you here, particularly today, obviously, wrapping up the crypto gathering. This is a crypto gathering finale. talking all about CryptoSpring potentially becoming CryptoSummer. So much to talk about, Raoul. Gosh, this is one of those conversations where it's hard to know where to begin. Announcing Real Vision 2.0. So much happening in the space. Raoul, where do we start? Well, I think yesterday was a good day. I think we can just go with that. I have been, as you know, bullish for quite a long period of time, and I've laid out my case for all of that.
2:16but um you know yesterday to get a ruling we were expecting the etf to be the good news and then the you know brad going house has been fighting this for so long and then gets the ruling i mean that was very good for the space and it's just given at the margin people more confidence in what they can own um and what will be regulated what won't be regulated and how the world will work so you know it was a very very important deal so i think yeah you know i think everybody should be very happy with that now does it continue to go up in a straight line or not i don't know most likely i think but you know with a few corrections on route it just feels like positive momentum's building we go into the arc etf in august um i think that's the first one up and we'll see from there yeah eve hanging around 2000 right now just a shade under as we speak ripple rocket i think it was up 60 percent at peak up about 50 percent right now and now i believe it's the the uh fourth or fifth largest cryptocurrency it's jock in right now with b and well it always was up there right but then it got it got delisted but yeah it's up 125 this year but it was up 75 yesterday i mean it's ludicrous how much that that moved um but um there we go i mean and then everybody relisted it So it's now become part of its case.
3:42Now, interesting enough, I've valued a lot of these cryptocurrencies using Metcalfe's law, using the same framework of the amount of value traded in dollars versus the number of active users. That gives you a good estimation of how the chain should be valued. And XRP has always been valuable because there's a lot of activity on the chain. I know there's a bunch of Bitcoin people who dismiss it, but there's a lot of activity. We had a great interview with Santiago Velez a long time ago. When I first met him, actually, I saw him talking about XRP. And I'm like, can you explain it to me? Because Santiago is like one of the smartest people I know.
4:21And he broke it down for me in great detail. And it was very, very interesting. Yeah. By the way, I should say, talking about what's happening right now and the crypto gathering that we're wrapping up this week, we've been talking all week with experts from around the crypto sphere to try and understand where we are and where we're headed. Of course, you can watch the entire thing free in the link pinned to the top of the Twitter spaces right now. Also pinned to the top of Real Vision's Twitter and also available at realvision.com forward slash gathering. So these are all conversations we've been having.
4:55Boy, you know what I was watching this morning around? Maybe this is a little bit out of order, but I was watching this morning your conversation with Keith Grossman. What a fantastic conversation over at Moonpay. Oh, yeah, with Keith. I mean, Keith's always great value. But what was really interesting is see Moonpay's broadening perspective on what they can bring into the space and how that they're thinking of being the infrastructure layer. So Keith's whole mindset has gone from a more traditionalist Web3 and what it is, you know, NFTs, tokens, blah, blah, blah, to, OK, this is the actual architecture for the Internet and everything's going to get replaced using it.
5:37And I think he's right. And that's more than just payments or digital objects. It's the whole architecture. You know, how can it, you know, things that I've been talking about, digital ID, authentication, just every kind of uses of databases where we need to have verification, that kind of stuff. So it was a fantastic conversation with Keith and always fun with Keith as well. Yeah, I thought so too. And it's really interesting because you guys are, I think, in many ways, similar kinds of thinkers of bringing together all of the threads, all of the strands, everything that's happening. I was struck also by the conversation that you guys had about the convergence of AI and blockchain.
6:16yes you know we've talked about this is that there's a number of angles where this is going to come together it's all part of this exponential age thesis where all of these things become interrelational to each other and things inanimate objects which are ais or robots with ais will need to make payments to other things that is most likely to be on crypto rails which makes total sense to me um right i think also in addition the downside of ai is you can make everything endlessly um and it can be fake or it can be real whatever so you need some sort of authentication um and authentication using blockchain seems to be the most useful way of doing that and then there's content authentication which is more problematic to solve Like, how do you know a Real Vision video of me talking is a real one or not?
7:14Well, we need to. Well, that's easy. It's on the Real Vision 2.0 platform. Yeah, exactly. On the new platform. But, you know, we are even thinking about this at Real Vision as this becomes much more prolific because text to video is coming and it's coming fast at us in AI terms that we're going to have to figure out how to make sure our content, wherever it goes, is authenticated. Rob, we're talking here to a broad audience. Obviously, on Twitter, lots of people we reach we may not otherwise reach. Talk a little about the exponential age for people who may not know. Yeah, the exponential age is a thesis that I have built since 2021 that we are coming into a magic moment in time where we have the adoption of more technologies, groundbreaking technologies than at any point in human history.
8:08So we've lived with a lot of technological adoption curves, and they usually come one after the other, like the Internet and mobile phone, etc. But what we've got right now is something where everything is unlocking at the same time. And when I first talked about this, people thought I was smoking crack. I was saying, listen, crypto is the first wave and then it'll all come. The next one was AI, which is the fastest adoption of technology ever, which exceeded crypto, which was the previous fastest ever. And we are going to go to self-driving cars. We are going to go to genetic sciences. The use of big data, AI, genetic sciences will create differences in longevity outcomes.
8:51And this will happen dramatically fast. Self-driving cars will come very fast. And then before you know it, we've changed the structure of transportation around the world. The use of battery technology and other alternative fuels will lower the cost of energy over this time period as well. This time period, I'm thinking, is the next 10 to 15 years, where we will go through literally a renaissance where every single part of our lives gets reinvented by technology, particularly the digital lives. That's the metaverse experiences, AR, VR. It's the Internet of Things. there's so many component parts to it and they all interact with each other to create this kind of reed's law which is metcalfe's law squared so something that's so fast in adoption it's going to make humanity's head spin and it's going to create a lot of social issues and concerns but also it may actually solve some of society's biggest problems such as debt slow economic growth and that kind of stuff and shrinking populations.
9:56Raoul, as we're talking about your thesis and the exponential age, that kind of is a perfect segue to talk about the everything code, which involves some of that as well as the broader macroeconomic context and drivers. Yes. So my thesis, the short thesis on the everything code is that we had a great reset and it happened in 2008. That reset was essentially a semi-debt jubilee, whereas as opposed to canceling all debts, every single central bank around the world basically said you don't have to pay the interest we'll make all interest zero so that made debt more manageable so what happened is everybody restructured all their debts and all the global economies have a three to five year debt cycle for the majority of their debts that created a endless business cycle which is every three to five years which also coincides with the bitcoin halving cycle and what happens at the end of the cycle when the debts from the previous cycle are due to be rolled over and paid off.
10:51They never pay off the loan. They extend the loan, but the interest payments get monetized by the central banks. And that liquidity is a debasement of fiat currency, and that drives asset prices higher. And I've proven that out over a number of different ways. It's still a thesis and a hypothesis, but I've proven it out in as many ways as possible, and it seems to hold true. And then I applied what we do at Global Macro Investor, which is my kind of premium institutional research service, myself and Julian Bittle then started using our forward-looking economic indicators to see if we can start to forecast liquidity going out into the future.
11:29And the everything code suggests because of the massive correlation, the 97.5 % correlation between our liquidity indicators and let's say the NASDAQ, we can therefore not only forecast liquidity out to 2026, but we can then forecast asset prices that far as well. Now, I'm not going to give away that because I don't want people to think it's, you know, a dead cert or a true crystal ball, but it's going to give us a very good perspective on it. So that gives me the perspective that this year we will see we will see monetary, more monetary debasement, excess liquidity coming in by the central banks later on this year.
12:11And that will continue to drive asset prices. And that should continue to drive asset prices all the way through probably until 2026, 2025, something like that. Hey, everyone, we're going to take a quick pause and hear a word from our partners. We'll be right back.
12:29Well, it's so interesting, Raul, as you point out on Real Vision this week, This Bitcoin age coincides with the beginning of the global financial crisis, debt, massive spirals, you know, 2008, 15 years roughly. And as you say, talking about this idea of crypto spring potentially becoming crypto summer, money printer go brr, more cowbell. Exactly right. It's exactly that. And that is driving the world. Now, it's an optical illusion of the rise of asset prices, because when you divide them by the central bank balance sheets, basically most assets have gone nowhere. The S &P is pretty much traded sideways, real estate sideways, gold sideways to down.
13:12You know, they're not actually nobody's getting wealthier, which everybody feels that, but they can't explain it because asset prices are going up. But I can't buy any more with it. yes, I can buy some more goods in the supermarket, but I can't buy another asset. So if my S &P goes up, houses go up the same amount. So when I filtered that all down, I found out that there was two assets that do outperform the monetary printing. And those are the two with the secular adoption, the secular cycles behind them, which is technology and crypto. You know, which in many ways is just two sides of the one coin.
13:47If you think about it, crypto, So in a certain sense, it's just technology decentralized. Absolutely. Software eats the world. Absolutely. And now software is eating the world in a decentralized fashion. That's right. As everything gets digitized, so does money and the system of value and the system of storage and everything else. And that's all crypto is. So, yeah, it's just all part of the same mega trend that's been going on. It's funny, Raul. You and I have both been so busy lately. I feel like the only time we get a chance to really catch up is during these conversations, which is super fun because I think the audience gets to hear what we're thinking about almost in real time.
14:22I would just say, talking about the crypto gathering this week, you've been bringing these very sort of strategic and grand strategic themes. We focus tactically here on Real Vision Crypto Daily Briefing. I hosted two panels that I think would be great if people who are interested can get a little bit more tactical sense of what's going on. One with a series of technical analysts, REC Capital and some of our other great friends in the space who came on board to do that show with us. And then just yesterday, we did the same thing with hedge fund managers from ARCA and other spots. That's a great show.
14:53That was such perfect timing because the XRP news basically came out just as you were doing it. And there you've got people with actual money on the line whose job is to allocate risk in these markets in real time, being able to give you the feedback. It was a priceless session. Also, the NFT session that went with Ovi Mando and Sergio, really interesting because NFTs are under duress right now. Really interesting to get that perspective as well. I've just come off another one with Ovi to talk markets at a broader perspective because he, like myself, is a TradFi guy. But he came from – so Ovi is OSF on Twitter who started RecGuy with Mando.
15:40They're both distressed high-yield and credit traders. So their perspective on how markets work is very useful in the crypto market, particularly in the bear cycle because they kind of know how to operate in that. So there's been some amazing content. So if anybody wants to go there, just go to realvision.com forward slash gathering. It's free. And there's a week of brilliant content, including my entire thesis on the crypto markets. So you can do that. And also on the platform, you might get a sneak preview of the new Real Vision that we're launching later this summer, which is a complete reworking as we build out a whole platform for everybody to live their financial lives, giving you not only the knowledge, the tools, but the network to succeed.
16:23And we're kind of supercharging all three of those, including a lot of Web3 components, plus AI, and all sorts of really cool stuff. Yeah, it really is. It's a great video to watch to get a sense of what we're thinking at Real Vision. You know, we pointed this out, and we say this with great humility, but it is fascinating. We started this kind of revolution with long-form financial video content. You started it back in 2014. I joined shortly after in 2017. And it's interesting, as you point out, the victory of the model can be seen by the fact that everyone is beginning to emulate that and it's gone everywhere.
16:56What's fascinating to me about Real Vision 2.0, Raul, as you describe it, is that it's driven by this thesis, knowledge times tools times network equals success. Talk a little bit about that, how it plays a role in the structure of Real Vision going forward and how Real Vision 2.0 reflects that vision. Yeah, you see, information is everywhere. curated information which is what we do at real vision where we curate the best divergent or confirming views of many of the world's best market participants that's still information you have to process it so what we also do is we have at the real vision plus level we have the real vision academy and all of the education courses which was built by you know the head of equity prop trading at Goldman Sachs who went on to GLG the hedge fund that I uh worked out as well we both ran different funds and we then made a show called a million dollar traders together and trade trained ordinary people to become traders that this was for BBC yeah for the BBC yeah and um Lex Van Damme turned that into a course and we eventually bought the course uh reshot it and everything else in kind of Real Vision style with all the rock stars of Real which are amazing people, and then built out a full education, five-step trading, the five steps you need to do to become a better investor.
18:16It's pretty clear. And then we've then added incredible, like, a course on DMARC analysis, which is everybody's favorite technical analysis, but by Tom DMARC himself, which nobody else in the world has. And Peter Brandt on technical analysis, Dave Floyd on technical analysis, Imran on options, just amazing stuff. But anyway, what we're doing there in the plus tier is giving people knowledge, the gift of knowledge. Once you've got knowledge, you can start applying it to then get wisdom. So that's the pro tier where you're starting to gain and strive for wisdom in markets. So this is where you start to see everything come together.
18:58And now you've got the mentors of people like myself and Julian Brigden helping you in your journey by showing you how to think macro, how to join the dots, how to build portfolios, how to take advantage of the business cycle, all of that kind of stuff. So that's what Real Vision does. But this bigger formula, which we think of as a universal truth, which is knowledge, once you've got the knowledge, what you need is the tools to apply it. So in this case, on the new Real Vision platform that comes out this summer, there'll be charting, there'll be economic data, there'll be AI insights into both the content and broader insights into finance.
19:37And we're training our own large language model about Real Vision content itself to give it proprietary AI data of all of the stuff that's held within Real Vision. Because that can't be scraped by open AI because it's behind a paywall. And building out the tools to augment people in their journey. So you've got knowledge and then you've got the tools that augment you. In addition to that, We are adding in portfolio management and risk management tools in conjunction with our partners at ILIO. And that gives us an incredible ability for people to upload all their portfolios from three or four different places, their custodians or their brokerage accounts, to be able to analyze the aggregated risk, your own net worth, what's driving it, what are the key factors.
20:26There's AI insights into that, too. uh we all we and the original the initial part of that is just to have your own um your own kind of ability to have a watch list that watch list that you put in of your the things that you want to watch we will also have ai insights and what's driving um the movement of those underlying things again to give you more knowledge just to augment yourself and then the big factor that i think is the multiplier is everybody who's successful has an incredible network to leverage. The better the network, the more you can leverage it, the more opportunity there is for you or you can offer to others.
21:07So Real Vision has always been about its members. We've got an extraordinary group of members. And now we're going to augment them all by creating this amazing networking tool so people can connect around the world with all Real Vision members. And over time, find people like an expert network with certain expertise. If you want to know more about, let's say, product developments, you can reach out and find out all the product developers, like you would do on LinkedIn, but it's within this kind of private, closed, curated world of real vision. If you want to find a scientist because you're trying to figure out how these genetic sciences or longevity works, we've probably got about 50 people in our network who are world experts on that.
21:47We've got everything in there. So we're going to create this connectivity of these members, And we've got members in, what, over 120 countries of expertise in something. Everybody's an expert in something. So that's what we're building. It's all coming together and it's all coming out this summer. And on the platform, you'll get a sneak peek of it. You know, Raul, it's interesting. Our members, our network has always been one of the greatest assets that Real Vision has. We've seen that when we've gone and met people in person in Las Vegas and small events all around the world, literally. But now to be able to institutionalize that in a digital format and to make it available essentially to everyone anywhere in the world on their phones, fascinating.
22:25That's right. And don't forget, we also have physical kind of these these kind of community organized meetups. We have them every quarter, roughly, in about 12 or 13 cities around the world, from Melbourne to Zurich, from from Philadelphia to Dallas. And it's extraordinary where, you know, 20 members get together. Real Vision foots the bill, the drinks bill. Everyone gets together and gets to meet each other and talk anything that's on their minds. You know, that kind of thing of connecting people around the world is a piece of magic for Real Vision and for our members. Yeah. And Nico knows not to schedule any conversations with me before noon the following day because we're out very late.
23:07I should say for people who are just joining us right now, if you're enjoying this conversation, we're talking about, obviously, the crypto gathering that we've just wrapped. You can watch the entire crypto gathering free in the link pinned to the top of this Twitter spaces or pinned to the top of the Real Vision feed. Raoul, we've covered a lot of ground here in the last 30 minutes. What have I missed? Not a lot. We have, you know, this, you know, the interview I've just had with Obi, I think the NFT market is another interesting part of this where we've got NFTs are an asset. assets as in the real economy are lagged in their prices because assets are driven by an assets i'm thinking of everything from art to watches to classic cars to houses are driven by disposable income or capital gains so that people recycle disposable income or capital gains to reward themselves with assets which are either an expression of status or it may well be a way of of storing wealth for the future.
24:12Now, NFTs, the ETH economy shrunk last year significantly, and NFTs were the last of that to bottom. So that's in the bottoming process now through a bunch of technical stuff that's been going on there. But they're in a bottoming process, so we talked about that and the opportunities that come out of that, and also positioning for the future as well. Where to position in NFTs, where to position in crypto itself. So yeah, again, that was just a great conversation. So I urge people to go and watch that because that's just out now. Hey, everyone, we're going to take another quick break and hear a word from our partners.
24:45We'll be right back to the Real Vision Crypto Daily Briefing.
24:52Yeah, it's interesting, Raul. I mean, I think one of the things that people outside of the digital asset space have been most skeptical of has been NFTs. It's interesting that you point out this idea of cycle lag. I've heard you analogize this on Real Vision to the idea that you see this in credit cycles as well, when you see people begin to buy, for example, investment grade, then high yield, then emerging market high yield. Talk a little bit how you see NFTs fitting into the broader crypto ecosystem as an asset class or sub-asset class. Yeah, because they're less liquid and they're also deemed to be kind of trophy assets, they have two parts of them.
25:28One is when there's less liquidity in the overall crypto market, NFTs get hit. When there's more liquidity, NFTs outperform the underlying base currency, in this case, ETH. So they're pretty interesting for that. And that acts like junk bonds will outperform treasuries in a bull cycle. You know, the idea is you buy them when everybody when the blood's on the streets and everybody wants to wants to throw them out because they want liquidity desperately. That's when you best buy distressed debt, junk bonds, that stuff. and then you hold it through the cycle as the cycle recovers and they outperform everything else.
26:03The NFTs should be that. What you hold, that's a more difficult equation. But anyway, that's the thesis behind it. The other part is unless people are making money, they don't buy trophy assets. When they start making money again, they start recycling and they want to buy a punk PFP or a Fidenza or some piece of art to show, A, to reward themselves or to flex status that they've been successful in what they do. So that process is as true in the economy as in NFTs. The chart of Rolex and Patek Philippe prices, I wrote about in GMI, is exactly the same chart as the Bordet Yacht Club. They're driven by the same kind of people doing the same kind of things.
26:46And both the US economy shrank or the global economy shrank and the ETH economy shrank. And they've kind of acted in exactly the same way. and they're still prices haven't yet bottomed or are bottoming in both of those assets. Yeah, it is, as we have a channel on our Real Vision Slack, humans being humans. Yeah, exactly right. It's exactly that. Humans are driven by the same dynamics. And we also think about risk in the same way, which is why crypto acts just like traditional financial markets. It's like we're seeing it now where altcoins are starting to outperform. Again, it's the same thing.
27:24People are moving out the risk curve. The space is seeing some more capital. People want to take more risk. They're starting getting more confident that the low is now in and that we're moving from crypto spring, maybe into crypto summer. And so therefore, people will take more risk. Those things that are riskier are less liquid. So if you take$100 out of Bitcoin and put it into, you know, token number 100, it's going to go up a lot more because they're less liquid and smaller assets. So that's what drives this cycle. Right. By the way, talk about things that are almost too obvious to say. It clearly makes sense that there'd be less liquidity in NFTs.
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27:59It literally is stamped right on the tin. They are non-fungible. They are one-on-one asset. So it makes perfect sense that you would see liquidity decline there before you would in fungible assets. Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. So, you know, people thought the crypto markets were different. They're not. Just think of ETH as an economy in its own right. And then everything starts to make sense. I'm going to be writing a piece with this with Delphi. Kevin and I, Kevin Kelly and myself have been thinking about this for some time. That reminds me. He sent me the note yesterday and I haven't looked at it about this.
28:31And I think it's very interesting when people understand that they're all the same way. Humans behave the same way. And once people understand that this acts like any traditional asset, just more volatile, they'll get their heads around it better. Yeah. Well, let's start to open up this conversation, bring folks in. I see we've got Goldmember and Penny here already in this conversation. Why don't you guys, I know you have been joining us in Twitter spaces throughout the entire crypto gathering. but I don't think we've ever given you an opportunity to really introduce yourself to the audience. Tell a little bit about who you are and what you do.
29:05Go ahead. We'll start with you, Penny.
29:10Penny, I think you're muted. Hi, I think you're muted. There you go. Hey, Penny. Welcome back. Great to see you again. Thank you. And you.
29:19I hate it when people ask me what I do for a living because it's so strange. it's not a normal job I have got a job, I have got a business but I don't really go to work or do a great deal at least you're honest Penny yeah, if you think anything you don't want to do anything to do with shit, dead bodies anything that's gross basically the saying, where there's muck there's brass so anything that the regular person doesn't want to do that's what we do like working in a bank yeah exactly and recently and this is all your fault ralph and julian's from a pro macro from back in the day about copper so what lance and i did during lockdown we got a group of people together and we said let's go into copper so what we did, we got in touch with a company in America they made us a great big dirty granulator machine that's just been delivered and installed, it took two years to build where we take scrap cable and wire, the machine processes it all and out the other end comes brand spanking new pure bright copper wow so this is why the realism community is amazing just people doing some cool stuff yeah yeah Rao you're either going to be responsible for us losing our shirt or making an absolute fortune well it's about the right time because copper looks like it's ready to take off soon so and there's going to be a copper shortage for a while so kind of makes sense hey Penny thanks for thanks for sharing that it's always interesting to get to hear people who are part of the Real Vision community talk a little bit about themselves their background what they do and how they see the world.
31:24Talking of which, Goldmember, hello and welcome. Hey, Ash. Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for this wonderful crypto gathering week. It's just been really exciting, just really great to just have this positivity in the market. And Penny is being modest. She's also co-host of our community run Twitter space, The Learning Tribe. She just does a lot in this space great insight and she's a great telegram as well she yeah she is our mod in the telegram also penny is wears many hats in this space and we love her for it but uh yeah guys i am i am real visions web3 community manager you know and and crypto and nft degen i i absolutely love the space i learn every single day and i think our community is is just one that i've been so excited just learning from because we just have really intelligent people from, you know, people like Penny to people doing technical analysis streams.
32:23It's just like, uh, it's a present every day, honestly. Yeah, that's very well said. Go remember, talk a little bit about what you do specifically. Yeah. So, you know, we're, we're running up the, you know, the real vision collective and our, our real vision Genesis NFT, which has recently created a DAO and as, you know, working on a bunch of different initiatives and ideas that they want to get started you know we manage the discord we write newsletters for everyone we host twitter spaces we we honestly do it all we share alpha information we're answering questions it's i think the better question asked is what don't we do in in the real vision yeah b jen's one of the hardest working people he's everywhere all the time we do it all is like a great real vision tagline because we all wear many hats i think mostly because so many people who are you know working at real vision as well as in the real vision community just find such a broad divergent spectrum of things interesting that it's just hard not to want to roll up your sleeves and dive in exactly right that's what it's all about all the fun is to be had by rolling up the sleeves and diving in yeah absolutely so listen guys what do you say we open this up to uh the broader community and uh bring in some questions for you, Raoul.
33:41Let's do it. All right. Let's add as speaker WAPI-T. Twitter Spaces has been a little slow the last couple of days for some strange reason, so we're going to have to wait a couple seconds here. Folks, connect. And listen, if you have a question for Raoul and you're in the audience and you're listening while we're waiting for WAPI-T to connect, please raise your hand. We'll pull you up on stage so you can ask Raoul a question.
34:11Yeah, I think Wapi is having some technical difficulties. So, Wapi, what I'm going to do is remove you, and you can just request right back, and we'll get you up. I've also just added DeFi Diffin, who's been part of our Twitter spaces for the last week and has always had insightful questions. So hopefully we'll get folks up here pretty soon. I think this is just a little bit of a Twitter glitch. Okay, DeFi Diffin, looks like you're up on stage. Go ahead with your question, unmute, and ask Rob. Happy Fridays. It's not so much. Hey man, welcome back. Good to see you again. Nice to have me, Ash. Nice to have me.
34:43I hope you're having a good Friday, man. But it's not so much of a question, but I just wanted to put it out there like going back to the BBC Million Dollars trailers. I remember that that was going back maybe 20 years ago, probably even a few more years on top of that. And that was the I saw that and I didn't. It was 2008. 2008. 2008. That's why I've gone a bit Greg. But I was watching that. We've been doing this a long time. Yeah, definitely. I was watching that and I didn't know what inflation rates were. I didn't know nothing about the financial markets. Funnily enough, I moved home 15 years later and I came across Lex Van Damme.
35:32Another excellent bloke who you work with and i started realizing that you two actually did that together there was another bloke in between who i i believe packaged your training up row and then started to sell it and i can tell you there was people falling over themselves to purchase it and it was costing a small fortune i managed to get my hands on that and i went down the rabbit hole and then started googling came across real vision just as you did a press release and that was when i was all in so what i'm trying to say basically is all you guys down there if you haven't got a pro macro subscription and a pro crypto subscription do it because it literally has changed my life it's brilliant that's so amazing to hear it's so amazing to hear i mean we even have that video of all the people sending in videos saying how much has changed their lives it's kind of blown us away um but that's what we've been trying to do just give we don't change people's lives we help people change their lives their own lives by giving them the tools the network and the knowledge to succeed it's as simple as that i think yeah i've been in since week one and you know i'm the kind of guy that if it wasn't practical or if it wasn't any use to me i wouldn't have been coming back year after year it's i'm just a straightforward guy it pays my subscription over and over when I listen to you and Julian or I listen to Ash and I listen to Goldmember.
37:01What are you doing in real life? I just get bullied by a penny. Oh, okay. Oh, I get it now.
37:14Well, DeFi Diffin really appreciate the kind words and we think about that every day in terms of thinking about what the community wants, how to really create value for them in terms of the content we create it is in the very core the fiber of every being that we do at real vision we think about that um and hearing you give voice to that is really it's it's just a great validation that that uh what we're doing is uh is meeting the needs of of of our members and and that's that's really all we aim to do yeah it's also it's the fun that you get as well i've never laughed so much over the last sort of maybe four or five years now crypto's come along and real vision You've got that crypto element to it.
37:54What a howl, as we say over it. So funny. Yeah, I mean, there's no point doing this if you're not having fun. I could be working at a bank if I wanted to be miserable.
38:07Oh, my gosh. Steve, I'd different. Great comments. Always a pleasure. You've had great comments this whole week. We really appreciate it. Thank you again. And thanks again for joining this Twitter thread. I want to bring some other folks here. Wapiti, looks like we've got you connected I finally got up thank you guys for having me up and respect to all the hosts thank you Goldmember for being here I see a similar badge on your name I'm glad that you are part of the creators also which is a great community I just came up just because of the title i heard you guys talk i heard you guys um discuss crypto gathering finale so it's game on i i was just having a conversation with my girlfriend like what is game on when i got invited by a penny on this space and i think that we are losing it sorry to say it but i think we're losing it we are pushing too hard to um be humans we are unique freaking beings we are bringing things to the table nobody can i mean there's i don't know how many people on the space there's a lot of people on this space and they all have ideas they all have plans they all have dreams they all have all kinds of things right and everybody is trying and everybody is pushing and social media is forcing on all kinds of different directions and it's it's crazy and i was just discussing when Penny suddenly invited me to come up here and to listen to this that we can bring so much to the table to build this world and especially after yesterday when XRP started pumping and people with visions actually kept their foot stuck to the ground and they one right the whole whole sec thing and that's that's that's creating a platform for all of us to right build well wapi let me ask you this what's what's your question for raul for raul yeah yeah we've got raul up here what's your question for raul like okay my question for For Raul and for everybody.
40:52If you look into your heart and if we are building the new world, what's the first thing that we should do, all of us, leaving away the thought, the bad things, the whole freaking thing that is happening right now and look from a human perspective, what are we going to do next? But I think that's a great question, Raul, and something that people have been asking. Go ahead, please. Yeah, look, the point being is step back from the noise of humanity, because it's the humanities that's spreading the fun, the humanity that's throwing poo at each other, and it's humanity acting like humans. But what is actually here is optimism.
41:41it's optimism that there's an opportunity whether it's an opportunity to invest in our future and make money or an opportunity to build a better world that's why we're all here everything else is just the peanut gallery making noise humans with their insecurities being aired out in real time across everywhere from discord channels to social media but the reason we're all here is because we're optimistic that this is giving us a future and a different future, whatever that means to you. That's why crypto took the world by storm, because so many people saddled with debts, saddled with real wages that don't rise, saddled with less opportunity, saddled with competition for labor, have now seen something that gives them hope.
42:33That is the powerful thing that we're all here for.
42:39yeah let's uh oh we have an animo trader back uh welcome to animo trader hey thanks ash uh can you just do quick mic test you can hear me okay oh yeah loud and clear yeah and i want to thank you guys for putting on the crypto gathering i i've been busy and missed a bit of it but what i have been able to catch has been fantastic um yeah really really appreciate it um my question for ryle i've actually got two questions um the you're listening to some of the information you put out, which is great. Thanks. What are you looking for to actually take profit? Like you'd have such a big macro view. And, um, you know, we, we've had this, you know, had this discussion way last year when I was walking on Vancouver Island, that's where I live right now today, guys, it's so stunning nature, the next big trade.
43:25But, um, I'm just curious what your thoughts are on what would enable you to say, I'd take profit, you know, four or five, 10 years or whatever it is and then where you're going to put it and then my and then my second question just to follow up on that is i'd love to know what your why is like what drives you as a person so to take profit it is you know i have a long-term view as you rightly point out you know let's assume that 2030 would be my view now would i take profits on the route and the reason and the answer is yes if i think there's something which is lifestyle accreted to me that is worth more than just seeing number go up so if that's i want to buy a house or i want to do this i want to do that whatever it may be and we all should do that because there is no point number go up if it doesn't give you a benefit depends everyone's got different benefits so it's the lifestyle accretion that is the point of investing for me or it's the point of wealth and it could be anything it could be a holiday it could be a private jet it doesn't matter what your own ambitions are they're personal to you and if you can achieve that ov and i just talked about it on the on our last chat if you can achieve one of those things then you should take money off the table because that is worth more than having the number go up so that that's how i would think about profits um but it is a longer-term trade the reason i do this is i you've heard the story it's 2008 um i predicted the crash a lot of people got really hurt saw the rise of Occupy Wall Street saw the anger.
45:16Then in Europe, we had the crash of the banking system and almost all of the governments went bankrupt and friends of mine went bankrupt and people said to me, well, why didn't we know what was going on? So I started Real Vision to do that, but I discovered crypto at the same time. And I thought this is the answer to the future financial system. there's nothing more invigorating than finding a mission that can help people that can create a new system to solve the problems of the past and is something that can be life changing in terms of making money as well so when you get that nexus of things it's like this beautiful truth this thing you see and you're just going to say well i'm going to dedicate my life to try and doing this, which is to help people in this journey and to take advantage of the opportunity set that they've been given.
46:10Because so few people see it because people are so cynical and worried and nervous and scared and everything that they don't see the big opportunity in front of them. I'm like, here is the big one. This can change many, many, many lives, much like it changed the baby boomers lives to have a 401k in the 80s and suddenly or buying housing when it was super cheap, three times income back in the early 80s. That's the opportunity here with crypto and it's still actually with technology as well. And I want people to make sure that they don't miss the bloody opportunity because if they can get it, and because tokenization means we can all put 10 % of our net worth, even if we earn$10 a day into this thing, we can all participate equally.
46:58That's what drives me here. Raul, so passionate. I love that. Yeah, I love that. Love that. Love that. Thanks, Raul. Appreciate that very much. Touching. And thank you, Nanaimo Trader. Your questions are always great. We always appreciate your participation in these conversations. I should say, you know, Raul, it's been a lot of fun just to be along for the ride. But also, I think everyone in our community can come along for the ride, too. And to just bring it back to what we've been doing this week with the crypto gathering, it's important to point out that if you're just joining us, You can watch the entire thing freely in the link pinned to the top of this Twitter spaces and at the link pinned to the top of the Real Vision Twitter feed just to get your beak wet to get a sense of what we do at Real Vision Crypto.
47:41Specifically, we'd love to have you come and join the community. But by all means, go take a look. It's totally free. You can watch it on YouTube and just get a taste of a little bit about what we're doing. OK, who else do we have? Solar, go ahead with your question for Raoul, please. Hi, Ash. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Raul. Raul,
48:04so what is the driver for you booking your gains? Is it your liquidity indicator? So that's one part. The other thing I wanted to ask is, are you more bullish on more community-based NFTs? Or do you think legacy art NFTs are going to be better things to buy? um also what kind of content do you see that's complementary to what you do and to what you see other people in the space doing that would be valuable and beneficial to to provide very interesting thanks solar uh in terms of taking profits as i said it depends if i'm trading or it's a long-term secular theme it's a long-term secular theme and it's generally going to be driven by where we are in the macro cycle plus those lifestyle goals that i want to achieve once i can get them whether i'm early in selling out or not i may sell out of some of my positions so in normal investments i use the business cycle framework plus technical analysis to get timing better um so that's how i tend to look at it in terms of the question about art versus community stuff i think they're two very different things i think nfts are going to enable so many different things and art is one of them and that's great and if people like art and you want to collect it great we've all got art on our walls that's all worthless and we probably paid a thousand dollars on holiday in some art store that we're spending a bit of time in um you have to get used to the fact that a lot this is not going to be valuable some will be the community ones it's really a function of do you want to be part of that community and is it worth it to you to be so and i think that community pass idea is very powerful i think particularly in this digital age we're redefining what society and communities are they're not the local church or the local pub or your next door neighbors it's now your next door neighbors in this digital world and the community-based nfts allow you to identify with the communities that you want to be part of so as opposed to living next door because you want to live in a certain area you can live in that area by owning the nft and it's actually a lot cheaper than buying a house in that area so i i really think that's powerful and i think communities are very powerful coalescing people together around similar ideals ideas ambitions is uh extraordinarily powerful overall um is there Is there a pair trade there?
50:58That sounds long NFTs, short CRE in blue states. Oh, well, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. Digital assets that can be everywhere and nowhere versus physical assets that nobody wants anymore. I mean, it's dead right. I mean, society is reorganizing in front of our eyes. That's why community NFTs are valuable. Yeah, that's exactly right. I think that you'd spot on society is reorganizing before our eyes. It's hard to see sometimes the big picture. It's hard to see those things moving. But when you see what's happening in this space, the passion, the development, the young people's involvement in it, I mean, just it all it all just aligns.
51:35Listen, guys, I'm going to bring down some speakers so I can bring up some new speakers into the community. Yeah, and I've got to hop in a few minutes. What do you got? Can you say it all to? Yep. All right. Great. Let's bring up Godfather Chase. Godfather Chase, go ahead with your question for Ralph.
51:56godfather i think you might be muted we'll get back to you in just a second uh seems like you're having some technical problems in the meantime elaine lee welcome um oh hi hi everyone i'm gonna get a read of the room by sending some hearts love and emojis oh my god the chief troublemakers here you're damn right i am hide hide hello no no no no no look at that look at that response you see that response when you're talking about um sorry i think it was from solar um our one eye moon bird that i see in the space is asking about communities where do we hang out and you're referring to you know the equivalent of where do you want to position yourself right just like when you buy uh a property so i would say um uh the real vision collective would be the fancy quaint cute apartment uh over in williamsburg where you do actually leave the apartment to go grab a drink and you find a few friends which leads me hey hey lane i love you i love you dropping the new york city knowledge uh from san francisco and we always appreciate that but explain to people who may not know what the real vision collective is because obviously we're reaching a large audience here on twitter who may be hearing about some of these ideas for the first time the real vision collective is um basically the real visions nft project and on every Friday at 2 30 eastern the community comes together to hang out to wind down we're like the cool kids at the top of the school bus that basically bitch about crypto uh my executive producer gave me that line so we're the cool kids at the top of the school bus everybody comes in with their favorite tweet that they've come across on crypto twitter and we just bitch about it we laugh about it and then we take crypto one day at a time and uh congratulations to everyone who wrote it out with us so 2 30 eastern in peak we'll post it in the twitter chat and you can join us over there for the after party at the top of the jumbotron you can see it now sorry you were saying i don't know how you guys do things in birmingham but you know the cool kids sit at the back of the school bus here in the u.s that's where the bullies are ash are you trying to tell me you were at the back of the school bus hey hey bully bennington no i didn't care enough to bully anyone in high school i didn't care about anything except for music uh but do come with a drink 2 30 eastern via inpeak is a very cool web street platform you can send how can people find it how can people find it if they don't know i'm gonna send it over to bj and bj where did you plop that thing i it's pinned to the top of the space uh at the jumbotron at the top you can you can see it there register and we'll see you at DGEN happy hour.
54:372.30 Eastern time. That's 30 minutes after this conversation ends. Sorry, Ash, can I just clear something up there? I don't know if I heard right. Did you say the kids in America, they live in the back of the bus? Absolutely. That was funny. Brilliant. Thanks, Steve. Raoul, we've got a couple of minutes left. I should throw this back to you so that you can give your final thoughts, key takeaways. We've obviously covered a tremendous amount of ground as we always do during these conversations. but just to leave for the weekend people with some final thoughts where's your heart at right now my heart wants to thank tim who appeared on that video and saying how real vision had changed his life and you know it was just an amazing video tim thank you i know you're always active in the real vision community you're always a big part of it and you know that's why we do this is we're all in this game together just seeing the video from you to say what you've been up to and how it's help you makes it all worthwhile for all of us so thank you and thank you to everybody who's part of all of this yeah just just some final closing thoughts here uh that i'd like to leave you with of course as we've said we've just wrapped this incredible week of content on real vision uh for the gathering go to the top of this uh of this twitter spaces or of course the top of the real vision twitter feed you can get all that information you can watch it all for free uh on YouTube.
56:01And finally, I should say next week, I've been told that we have Marco Santori, who's the chief legal officer of Kraken, one of the smartest lawyers in the space, doubtless to talk about everything that's happening, including XRP and everything else that's happening in the legal front. Oh, you know what I didn't ask you about, Raul? And I had it on my list, which is what's happened with BlackRock this week. One of the most interesting things to me has been the way Larry Fink has been talking about Bitcoin and Bitcoin specifically. Now, Now, I know the cynics will say they're spinning up an ETF, spot Bitcoin ETF in the U.S.
56:30Of course, Larry Fink would be talking about it spinning up, by which I mean they've submitted the application and resubmitted it after there were some challenges with it. But it's fascinating to me to hear Larry Fink talking about Bitcoin in a way, Raoul, that's similar to the way that you talk about Bitcoin, which is as digital gold. He was on CNBC, of all places today, talking about Bitcoin as digital gold, was on Fox Business earlier in the week or last week, talking about Bitcoin as a transnational payment mechanism that transcends national governments. This coming from Larry Fink. Wow. I thought that was really interesting, and I want to get your view on it.
57:05Everybody understands what it's about. Everybody in finance understands. I mean, I've given a presentation in front of Jamie Dimon and Steve Schwartzman where they're three fit in front of me taking notes when I'm talking about Web3 and crypto. They all get it. So it's no surprise to me. And they're all going to build on it. And they all understand it's the future of the system. They just have their own businesses to protect. And Larry's making the move. Now, Larry talked about crypto a while ago, don't forget, back in the last cycle. and they had it on their website and they had the biggest activity in the history of their website.
57:40He understands it. They all do. So for me, it's just like checking the box. We know it's coming. Before you know it, Goldman's going to be making prices for customers and before you know it, offering custody and then offering to hedge funds in prime broking and before you know it, these are just marker stones on route to adoption. So none of these surprise me. It's just the timing. You never know when it's going to happen. but the entire system will migrate that is for certain and that was my hypothesis back in 2012 when i first discovered bitcoin and it remains my hypothesis the entire system will migrate to blockchain technology including the system of money itself by central bank digital currencies uh everything so it's just a matter of you know when and how but it's happening and And it's happening bit by bit and then all at once.
58:33Raoul, a perfectly real vision way to end the convergence of TradFi, digital assets, and the cultural zeitgeist. Thank you so much for joining us, Raoul. Thank you for joining us. Elaine, DeFi, Diffin, Solar, everyone who came and asked a question. Of course, as always, Penny and Goldmember, wonderful conversation. Can't wait to do this again with you guys soon. Have a great weekend, guys. Take care, everyone. Thanks a lot. What's up, revolutionaries? Thanks for tuning in. And for more content like this, head over to realvision.com and get unfiltered access to the very best, brightest, and biggest names in finance.
From the publisher
Join us for an exhilarating live episode of the Crypto Gathering as we wrap up the event with Raoul Pal, Ash Bennington, and the RV community, diving into the heated debate of whether it's a bull run or just wishful thinking, discussing key insights gained throughout the #CryptoGathering.
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