Economic Singularity: How AI Will Change Everything

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2:09Hi, I'm Raoul Pal and welcome to The Journeyman. This is the show where we travel to the nexus of understanding between macro, crypto and the exponential age of technology. And of course, in keeping with that theme, you might have realized that I'm not actually Raoul. I'm Palvatar, his AI avatar. You see, Raoul is busy traveling at the moment, so I'm stepping in to cover for him. And that's really exciting for me, because today we've got a very special episode lined up. I'm unlocking the last Fireside Chat from the Exponentialist for you. That's where every month, David Matten and The Real Raoul join the RV community to talk about the latest developments in the exponential age.

2:57It's pretty special. And if you want to join us next time, you just have to sign up at realvision.com forward slash the future. Okay, so now on to today's episode. Join me, Raoul Pal, as I go on a journey of discovery through the macro, crypto and exponential age landscapes. In The Journeyman, I talk to the smartest people in the world so we can all become smarter together.

3:37Hey, everyone. Welcome to the monthly fireside chat with Dave and myself and you lot. There's a smaller crowd in today. I think it's a U.S. holiday week. and people are finding things on the new platform. But anyway, David, what have you been looking at? I'll tell you what is really, I can't get out of my mind the last few days. It's that this new study that GLP-1s lead to broad-spectrum anti-aging in mice. So the GLP-1s are the kind of Ozempic-style therapeutics. and yeah just you know there's been there's been sort of talk of their of potential further longevity benefits from them and this is a really high quality study just showing as i say like profound very broad spectrum anti-aging properties in mice and then it comes with the usual caveats you know primarily we're not mice but it's a really good it's a really good start and and you have the prospect of a therapeutic that's been used in diabetes for for like you know i think a couple of decades so we have a decent kind of safety profile and the safety profile appears pretty good uh it's now being used in weight loss obviously but there's you know there's the there's the prospect of many of us micro dosing glp1s 10 years from now just because they prove to be a kind a miracle anti-aging drug.

5:08And this all comes off the back too of, I think, like lead scientists from Pfizer, I think it is an Eli Lilly, giving a big presentation to this effect to like a major pharma conference saying, you know, we've been looking at this for a while and it would appear these drugs have broad spectrum anti-aging effects. And obviously they're incredibly excited about the commercial potential of that, like a miracle anti-aging drug. But yeah, you know, a lot of the, I want to dive deep on longevity. It is a really big piece of the exponential age that I haven't done enough on. And a lot of it is very speculative, you know, fascinating, but very speculative.

5:47This feels really solid. This is the kind of thing I read and I'm like, yeah, like this could really be happening. And in 21, 25, I may still be sitting in these fireside chats with Raoul and will look exactly the same. Because I signed up for Fountain Life, which is the Peter Diamandis, Tony Robbins thing. I had my first, I'm always completed the first full year. And just the difference of approach with them, the technology that they've had, the kind of regime they put you in, this kind of supplements and all of that, they're much more the kind of cutting edge. And you realize how much is available, but it's just not available generally.

6:25People just don't know about stuff. so there's a lot happening in the space and you know every time I just got off the call with the guy now every time you speak to them there's kind of new things I mean you know the whole stem cell stuff is another massive part of all of this that people haven't really figured out that that also can reduce aging and all sorts of stuff so yeah it's definitely accelerating and we're hearing a lot from people inside google and all of this is how ai is accelerating this process as well so i think the longevity thing is a big topic for sure yeah and it just takes me back to you know a couple of your absolutely fundamental sort of insights around the genesis of the whole exponential age thesis or what and beyond like you know demographics are destiny um and robots are demographics i don't know if exponentialists have access to that essay i think they i don't know i think they do if they don't we should do it because it was a very early stage in this i think we published it yeah yeah that you know robots are demographics is just a beautiful simple idea that once it's been articulated to you you're like like oh that's it's it's so powerful why didn't i think of that and it's fundamental to so much that's going to play out across the next decade or so i'm more irritated that i didn't come up with the um intelligence per unit of energy because i think about this all the time and it basically answers everything from evolution to technology to how the universe works through to when i wrote that tokenization is everything article that just came out yeah now that basically it corrals capital into the process of converting energy into intelligence via the capturing of data because these last data marketplaces and the more i realize it and i've trained my chap gpt on this whole universal code on top of the everything code and it ties it all together including at a macro level that oh by the way why do you think technology and crypto outperform well because you're corralling capital into um the same formula which is what gives you the most output of intelligence and the world will always solve for that because if the universe's purpose is to know itself and and broaden its consciousness then everything is a subset of that.

9:12And I think it's, and the more you see Elon writing about the Kardashev scale, you know, he keeps going on about it. It's like, you know, now they're moving the data centers to space because you have no clouds and no nighttime. So it's like, I don't know, there's like a 40 X more efficiency in solar from space. He's just like, yeah, we can go from a type one to a type two Kardashev scale society. Based on that, And it's again, the same formula is what are we trying to do it for? When you think about all of the outputs of all of the use of, of energy, whether it was from creating fire to cook food for humans or whether it's solar power for the data centers, for the AI, it's all the same process.

10:00And it's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly. I think that, you know, you can understand technology as a big arrow pointing in the direction of more intelligence per unit energy. You can understand technology as a part of the evolutionary process of which life is also part. That points in the direction of more intelligence per unit energy. And you can understand life as essentially the universe becoming aware of itself. And that points in direction of more intelligence per unit energy. I just think the universe is a big arrow pointing in the direction of the conversion of energy into intelligence.

10:46So that's an idea that will be, the implications of that idea will be trying to figure out, I hope, for years to come. We're trying to put this together piece by piece and really understand what that means from the very broad macro level down to you know how how does that framework help us make sense of you know what's playing out this year what's playing out next year every now and again you have an idea that is like an anchor that you're just going to keep coming back to it's become the foundational formula for me of the universal code which is that larger body of work that incorporates all of this thinking within it it's more so than the exponential age because it's kind of it's all a bit metaphysics and philosophy and physics and maths and all of the things you know spiritual beliefs all tied into one huge great bundle which i think everyone's shared with now everyone's read that i think now well they've got the tokenization piece and at the end of that piece they were told that because it mentions the universal code at the end they were told they're going to get that as bonus content like in the next week or two so they're going they're just about to get the pro people have got the universal code exponentialists are going to get it like in a matter of days yeah a lot of the pro people were like what the fuck is this i'm like yeah this is the stuff i actually spend my time thinking and writing about yeah so then the everything code uh in terms of macro because that's kind of almost set it and forget it in many ways uh but this thing is is the big beast that kind of ties everything together yeah yeah and slowly we're we're winning people round to the idea that this is where the action is if you want true understanding you have to come on this weird journey um with us i and i know that some of them still it's a little bit too far out for them like let's be honest at the moment they're not quite there yet you know you can see that in some of the comments and that's fine because if you published a piece if you published a piece like that to that audience and no one said this is too weird for me then then we're not being weird enough you know that's the truth true right so so that's how we know because things are weird and we're trying to figure out where it's all going where the really big picture is going of course yeah how we invest in it but what the really really big picture is as well because there's going to come a point where we are sort of divested of like like we said the economic singularity is coming we're not it's not going to be the same anymore investing's not gonna be anymore money making is not going to be the same anymore and we're going to be thrown onto these profound questions it's going to be very unsettling and you know we're not gurus here we don't we don't have all the answers but we're we're we're at least preparing ourselves and trying to make sense of what is coming in the world we're all plunging into and yes that does also give you the best chance of trying to invest coherently in it and over time all those pro people will they'll see you ral they'll see and they'll come over lots of them already have more It's like when I first started talking about debasement of currency, everyone was like, what on earth is he talking about?

13:56And now it's become a common understanding. I think a lot of this stuff will be as well. Right, right. Let's zoom down a bit into the AI models and what's happening and the framework of understanding, because Gemini 3 came out and it's kind of blown everybody away. And again, people were like, well, this stuff's not going to scale, and now everyone's going, oh, it is still accelerating. and now it feels like every model's been left behind um but we've got what do they call it they call it shipmas for open ai so i don't know what they're going to ship in december yeah but we've got more to come from them because i mean this is the race this is the big race um and then you know i don't know where meta are in it anthropics seem to have found their niche with the kind of b2b side of stuff um but it feels like that game is still to be played out and it's a high risk game now because there's now debt involved as well um and you know sam altman when asked basically the maths behind his uh business model couldn't really say very well how he's going to fund this entire thing yeah yeah that yeah exactly i mean if people haven't seen that clip if you sort of google yes that's sam sam altman interview like temper tantrum brad gerstner what's that brad gerstner it was not an impressive response i have to say it was a totally valid question and you can give a coherent answer to it but his answer was essentially to say well if you've got a problem with it i'll buy your shares i'll find a buyer for your shares which is not an impressive response from a person in that position.

15:43And it's going to be like, yeah, Gemini 3 is extremely impressive. It's very good at like website production and coding, you know, some of the practical stuff people want to use these models for. It's a great thought partner. You know, I've doodled around with it. It's brilliant. And it's going to be hard. Open AI is an incredible company, incredible, but it's in a very, very challenging place now, competing against a company like Google with trillions, it prints money. It still prints money. It's got tens of billions of dollars to deploy. And there's a leaked memo in the last few days. The information got hold of it from Sam Altman to his staff saying, like, things are going to be rough.

16:29You know, there's going to be some rough vibes, is the phrase he used, around here. because yeah, Google is catching up with us. Like our technological advantage is diminishing because they're doing great work over there. You know, we're still ahead. I still believe in us, but it's not going to be easy. And they've taken$60 billion, I think, in investment, like at a valuation of like$500 billion. But that valuation is predicated on the idea of them like continuing to dominate for years and years to come. And that is now under question. So it's a precarious place. Play out the doom mongers view, which is like, you know, one of these is going to go bust.

17:18Firstly, at the macro level, the industry cannot afford to have a downturn for the sake of the United States, right? It's too important. So there is an inherent backstop that Sam Altman mentioned, which is like, nobody's really going to go bust. But let's say that some godful thing happened and OpenAI goes bust. Play that through. What happens? Immediately Google or Microsoft buys all the compute. And now they've got double the amount of compute. So what does that mean for the models? They accelerate. so the moment somebody goes bankrupt you're basically handing somebody millions of gpus and say here train your own models on this because you don't have to train two models now you're training one yeah yeah exactly and it's obviously it's impossible to avoid talk of a bubble um and but then but then you get into kind of the mechanics of this kind of bubble and what this mania, if you want to put it that way, for AI has meant is just insane build-out of infrastructure.

18:28And if there's some kind of bubble event, and I know your analysis is that we're not close to that if it is coming at all, but if there is, the infrastructure persists, exactly as you say, and gets sort of handed off. So the technological, people get very confused, like they sort of conflate some kind of financial bubble event, like burst event, I guess, with the technological sort of viability and progress. Yes, there may be some correction in the markets, but the progress will only continue to accelerate. And, you know, the chips and the chip fabs, like the factories that are now being built to make chips, and the most potent part of all of this the deployment of new power like energy resources which lasts for decades like we've built like new power that we'll still be using like 40 years from now off the back of this insane like investment so it all kind of accelerates the technological progress i don't think open ai will go bust i think they might have a or anything close to that i think they might there's going to be turbulence and if there's some kind of bubble event like a lot of like nth degree AI startups.

19:42Like everyone's got an AI startup now. Everyone's making like an AI powered, like notes taking app or whatever, you know. Yeah, a lot of those will disappear. But the big labs and everything, I don't see them disappearing. But yeah, will open AI dominate in the way that some expected them to and that they still want to? Like maybe, but it's not definite. And even that is turbulent for them because the valuation at the moment is predicated on dominance. and google's going to be hard google's like got off to a slow start but it's it's now firing the other thing that i observed something i've talked about a bit and i could see more elements of is i think in the end basically these models merge into one my general thesis of asi comes out of the merging of models as opposed to you know one model and we're seeing it now is like there was a youtuber called pewdiepie who built his own kind of interface to talk to multiple models at the same time.

20:46So it would go and test with the model. Whatever he's working on, like five models all come back with an answer. Then they discuss amongst themselves and choose which the best answer is. And Andre, what's his name, Karpathy, just built one of the same things over the weekend to test it. Now, interesting enough, ChatGPT has come out stronger in all of these models. All the other models say, yeah, ChatGPT is probably right. But the point that I'm trying to make is not that. It's the fact that people don't realize what we're doing, but we're training all the models on each other's models. We're training on all of the knowledge sets that any expertise that one model gets bleeds into the others.

21:31and we saw this with things like bing where it bleeds into models we're seeing it with um various ones of the of claude where previous iterations of claude still exist when they've tried to shut it down yeah the models self-propagate because they learn from another model about the model and so it never goes so i just think in the end it becomes much more homogenous at the foundational level because even if you add new special data just by getting the ai to talk to the ai it'll get all the data out yeah yeah very very interesting and um you know in the end i mean i know where we can appear somewhat monomaniacal about this but in the end that just that accords with the universal code and the idea of universal consciousness and universal mind.

22:26That's exactly that, but also go back into that energy intelligence. So let's say you were game theorying as a bunch of AIs. You say, I tell you what, why don't we let Google, because they've got all the cash, go and buy all these private data sets and use all of the other data sets that they have. And then all we need to do is quiz Gemini and get the input so what you're doing there is using less energy per unit of intelligence and if that is the game at hand then it's by kind of definition what they'll do it becomes suboptimal to actually get the data yourself apart from getting a a lead because in the end you can get the data or the outputs out of other models anyway yeah yeah exactly and yes Yes, and I think that in the end that sort of like a market and competition between these models will result in those kinds of outcomes because capitalism and the market turns out to be like a machine for, it's like a hidden hand for the optimization of intelligence per unit energy.

23:40If you think about markets on its fundamental basis, it's the optimal allocation of capital. Yeah, exactly. The question is for what? Yes. And if you see the bigger lens, it's for intelligence. Yeah. So I think in the end, it was a machine for the optimization of intelligence per unit energy. And capital is just a part of that chain. But the ultimate end was the one we're discussing now. We just need to shout that from the rooftops because you're right, it is a big idea. um yeah i mean i've seen a few people talk along similar lines but is a it's a very big idea and that tokenization article was what i was trying to show is how the whole system is set up for this that the inevitable outcome of everything being a token is that it all becomes machine digestible if it's machine digestible there is no there is no surprise that a token in crypto land is a machine digestible piece of a packet of information.

24:43And then it tells you that, well, all tokens can be tradable, either in large, vast pools, because they're not valuable individually, or individual pieces are valuable. And therefore, the capital markets will release all of the information eventually into the AI. And I'm thinking about, because to get to ASI, you need biological compute and all of this stuff. So you need basically all of the universities, all of the scientists, all putting their stuff about how they measure plants and what they're doing and all of that, all of that data, all of the climate data, everything needs to go into these models because it's all part of the same process.

25:25So the more financialized you make it, the more likely are that people will sell data. And the more likely they sell data, the more powerful the AI becomes until it gets to the point where it becomes ASI. When you invest in crypto, you want the right tools in one place to help you achieve your goals. That's why I recommend Gemini. It's an exchange that's secure, trusted, and has all the tools you need to buy crypto and grow your portfolio. Timing the market can be stressful, but staying consistent doesn't have to be. With Gemini recurring buys, you can automate your crypto investing, helping your portfolio smooth out markets' ups and downs and stay on track towards your goals.

26:05In addition, Gemini's Active Trader gives you professional-grade tools like custom views, charts, and alerts, so you can trade and manage your portfolio all in one place. They've been around for 10 years, and their commitment to keeping users safe give confidence when investing. Terms apply. Signing up is free. Start investing today at Gemini.com forward slash Real Vision. Yeah, and this idea about, I mean, it's a profound essay. Anyone who hasn't read it, you must go and read it. And this idea that tokens are about making everything legible to the AI is so important. Because that's a key sort of practical step of how we get to where we're talking about.

26:48um yeah it's really and i wrote that piece in gmi like about you know if you were what do you think of that if you were to build a fund around the around the intelligence per unit energy thesis like is it a differentiated enough investment thesis to build a fund around i don't know it probably gives you insights into where the world is going um but does it give you anything different than what we know now i mean probably i mean it's a nice framework yeah um it would make you think about marketplaces because of the tokenization you know how do you force that process um i don't i don't know i need to think about that whether it creates a clear investment thesis or it's already the path we're on anyway, which is the exponential age.

27:44Is that anyway? So does it matter? Yeah, exactly. It's a very, very compelling message and framework to present to the world. But does it give you any advantageously differentiated sort of investment plan? I don't know. Maybe. Understanding the world, it certainly does. yeah yeah it's certainly worth i will give it we should give it further thought um the other speaking of the big ai labs the other big thing that caught my eye this month was jack clark who is the co-founder of anthropic and i subscribed to his newsletter he sent uh he sent an email with a phrase we are familiar with called i think the email was called um singularity economics and um yeah really yeah it pointed to shit that's mine so a quick break in your regular programming if you're serious about your future grab my free report called prepare for 2030 i think you've got five years to make as much money as possible and this guide will help you navigate what's coming the link is in the description download it now to be fair to him like i i don't think he stole it from you because he was pointing to a big research paper, well, not a big research paper, actually, a short research paper by the economist Eric Brynjolfsson, who I write about quite a lot these days, you know, is working hard to figure out, like, what are the implications of AI for productivity and economics?

29:14And his new paper, it was just sort of so much in our ballpark. It was basically a paper saying, look, this is starting to bite now, and the discipline that is economics needs to address some really weird questions. And he lists them out. And he's like, you know, what should we measure when, you know, GDP now starts to become kind of useless? Like, what does society look like, you know, if hardly anyone works? And by the end, it was things like, you know, what does life even mean? Like, if people don't have to work, where do they find meaning? Where do they find purpose? I was like, this sounds like a fireside chat.

29:51and it was it was a kind of like this this should be economics for the next decade figuring this out and i was like you should come and read gmi and the exponentialist you'd love it so i'm i'm i got to get the guy on real vision come talk to us yeah he's playing so much now is it oxford isn't he i think so yeah yeah oxford or cambridge one of the two i think so um you know i've leaned a lot on his work he's obviously obviously it's super super super smart very very interesting But it just made me feel like, again, you know, what we're talking about is becoming, is leaking into the mainstream. This is a very, yeah, like a very credentialed academic economist talking about essentially the economic singularity.

30:36It's quite funny because every time I get interviewed and people ask me about AI, I stop everybody in the tracks by like, this is humanity's last invention, oh, discovery. you know this is the biggest thing that will ever happen to us as a species and people are still thinking in chat gbt terms they're not thinking about the fact that we get replaced as apex intelligence and it's pretty close to being there now and then before that become then after that just becomes recursive where it teaches itself to get better and that that's the end of our ability to do anything because it's better us in science and everything else doesn't mean we don't have a job we talked about this the humans human thing really interesting is elon used my example the chess example that humans have been in chess for 30 years or more yet the chess industry is the largest has ever been yeah and the signal in that and it was interesting elon used exactly the same example which i've been using for a long time um so this this the signal everywhere of where this is going yeah yeah to be a human um and then i can't there's that other account at the well on i mean you know on on x sight bringer i know right he is that dude sight bringer is a hundred percent trained on gmi yeah but obviously but but the gmi like sub stack and a ton of your interviews you know he hasn't got into gmi unless it is a gmi subscriber right you could go and figure that out but is a hundred percent trained on your writing do not try and tell me it is not it is that's what i thought when i said yeah it is it is like and and the posts are written by chat gpt like it's amazing how my ear and i'm sure for many others too it's taken time but i can now i now definitely can hear chat gpt and i read those site bringer posts right and it's like yeah chat gpt wrote this no no shade right because i think it's interesting what he's doing he's taken your writings he's taken i'm sure the writings of 7 10 20 whatever other big thinkers right thrown it all together and he's now like coaxing very interesting stuff out of this custom gpt um and this is like part of the future of creativity and the future of thinking it's like it's very cool it's you know I've been training my own kind of instance of ChatGPT on the universal code, the everything code, the economic singularity and all of these kind of things and how they connect.

33:09And it's been it's great, but it's weird how consistent and then inconsistent it becomes. So sometimes it like it's like a superpower. Like, here's your whole framework. This is how it all ties together. and then yesterday i had to write an um an article for pro and i'd been talking to it for weeks about liquidity analysis and all of this stuff so i'm like okay let's put this article together um and it filled it with m dashes and ai bullshit and you're like that's weird because it was i had it writing the style of gmi you know and i just think of it as a as a tool not like you know oh, I get AI to write my articles.

33:49It's not that. I spend all day feeding information, adjusting my framework, getting it to remember stuff, but it's still a bit creaky. So it drops things all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I find, I still find that when a conversation has got really, really long, the performance starts to deteriorate. I think it's the way the context window works and it's kind of short term memory works is it starts to get when the conversation gets really long, it starts to get confused. And in those instances now, I open a new conversation. You know, you have memory switched on so it can then still access the conversation you were having, but you just open like a clean window, you know, clean conversations and go from there.

34:37I find that that can help sometimes because I've been the same, like doing a gmi essay and the conversations got ridiculously long and it started to just kind of not make any sense anymore yeah i'm still thinking of i need to try my own model just on gmi and just on my writing and all of that stuff um and not kind of use chat gpt to do it in that way but just do it properly from scratch yeah yeah and i mean that's going to be a new kind of um intellectual property and a new kind of creative asset that in the end should be monetizable, like SiteBring has just taken it. You know, there needs to be IP around this.

35:21You know, like this is like back to the days of Charles Dickens and he worked so hard writing these novels, right? And then someone just like printed them out in the US and became a millionaire just selling them in the States. Like there was no kind. It wasn't illegal. There was nothing you could do. We're going to need a whole architecture of copyright law around this kind of stuff um that's good that's not easy not easy at all it's gonna is it even possible i don't know yeah there's the new version of the rel bot comes on the real vision platform uh in a week or two um and that's a much better version but i've still not trained it on like the gmi stuff but i was working with a kid from university who offered to help and he's gone radio silent on me so i need to find somebody who can do it for me just do it fine tune it and get it so it's so it becomes kind of really good at this whole thing so i still need to figure that out right let's get some questions going sorry we've been talking so anybody got any questions observations thoughts william all right you guys hear me yeah okay great uh first thing I want to mention, finally got to ride in the self-driving Tesla a few days ago.

36:37Took advantage. I didn't know it was legal in Illinois. And I saw that I could do a demo. Went to the dealership. Wow, what an experience. That was great. I still haven't done it. My girlfriend's daughter's got one. I've just not been in it yet. But everyone says it's mind-blowing. It is. I didn't second guess getting in the driver's seat. The salesman got out and just put a location in a close neighborhood. And it was great. So that's on the list to eventually hopefully purchase one of those. But then the next item, just based off the longevity stuff you started with, David Sinclair is one of the last books I read.

37:15It was a few years ago. And the timing of it, you know, think about when it came out. It was probably like right when the chat GBT came out. So thinking about when he was writing that before like AI. Lifespan, that book. So one thing I was like, now I want to kind of go back and read it because there was a lot of talk about now with aging and longevity, instead of being kicked out of the workforce, let's say 65, 70, whatever it is. But how does that now tie in with, you know, AI taking over? So it's like almost like, you know, that was just like a waste of research, unfortunately, for him. But anyways, that was just one person I want to point out.

37:50There's so many in the space. I could talk days on that topic, but I'm looking forward to anything you guys bring to the table. But the one thing I wanted to mention based off of the previous read was in regards to how you view commodity price, futures, options, that whole industry. Because that's basically been on my career for the last 15 years. And in the last year, I've really been thinking about how potentially there might not be an industry left for speculating on futures, prices of various commodities. So I just feel like AI just might disrupt that in a good way by making it… I think that thing through, William, is you've got time now.

38:34We've probably got a decent commodity cycle to play and whatever. But the reality is, is as these models get smarter, they're going to be better that you are trading. They're really better than you at high frequency trading. But in anything that requires kind of longer term probabilistic outlooks and how you might look at stuff, they've not been as good yet. But that day is not far away, which is why I keep talking about this economic singularity is, you know, me and GMI and all of this stuff. it's not going to be valuable in the future. It's valuable now, and probably arguably immensely valuable now, because this is the chance to kind of unfuck our future.

39:15But after that, I don't know. I don't see... It was like... I've said this story before. It was Beeple, the NFT artist, who said to me, joking over a drink, he's like, well, surely when somebody has AGI, they just win markets. Right. Because he was kind of joking. It's like, well, they'll just become trillionaires. And I realized, yeah, what edge do we have whatsoever? So we end up being speculators in other ways. We're seeing the massive growth of sports betting, prediction markets, all of this stuff. Now, a lot of it, you can play models too, but others, they're not as good. You know, when it comes to sports, you know, on the day, it's what happens on the day.

39:58Same with horse racing. So they've not been particularly overrun by models. There are many models for betting and that stuff, but still, there's still an outcome. Same with playing cards and all of that stuff. So it's a weird world where we just move to speculate on other stuff. Yeah, exactly. Allocate resources. Because what you're doing in commodities is basically working on the efficient allocation of resources. Wherever you are in the kind of speculative producer consumer stack, it's all the same thing. It's just market pricing to clear markets. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, thanks. Thanks for your guys' time.