From INTERPOL to Crypto: Where Crypto Meets Nation-States & Global Security ft. Adam Zarazinski

29:26And that's something that you can eat nice, really easily packaged up into an API for them to check whenever they want. They don't want it. They want a regular reporting. They want you to make their life easier. Yeah. And just give it to the guy that makes the decision. And then if they want to check the data to make sure that we're doing an okay job, then they can check it. How the hell is China doing it at such scale? Or are they not? Is that just kind of false reporting by sort of alarmist media? Yeah, I don't. It could very well be a bit of both. But one of the reasons why is the nature of the U.S.

30:02system, even in what you correctly described as like the surveillance state era, right, is still fairly decentralized in the United States, right? Like just between different federal government agencies, state versus federal is a continuing issue. And that's talked a lot about in the political realm, but also like just like where and how different agencies do do work is a big is a big continuing thing that is always like for big projects. Right. Is always something that they need to tackle. And I would say in defense of in defense of like the DOD and the IC, too, they take the authorities and their lack of authorities very seriously.

30:45So if we provide data to the Department of Defense, under no circumstances whatsoever are we ever allowed to provide anything on US people. And if we do, there's even one US person that is accidentally in there for some reason we get booted. They take it pretty serious. So there's that too. Yeah. Now, what is the role of other sovereign states in the crypto market? because obviously this is of international relevancy. Yeah. So there's a few things I want to ask. One is we kind of know Iran is mining Bitcoin as a method to get US dollars. Are we able to track that? Does everybody know this? And it's just part of the fine.

31:40They need some dollars somewhere. How do we think about that one? We'll talk about China as well. Yeah. No, Iran is an interesting issue. So without saying too much, Inka has quite a bit of data on Iran. They have, at least according to Inka's data, approximately 30 large centralized exchanges. And those are just centralized exchanges. They also have OTC desks and everything like that. billions of dollars being traded for crypto to Iranian real back and forth in those markets. And oh, by the way, as you correctly identified, most normal citizens in Iran, at least what the law says in Iran, is that they're not allowed to trade crypto.

32:27They are allowed to mine it, but they're not allowed to trade it. So how and where they get billions of dollars in trading volume we can guess right um without being on the without you know people on the ground um although iranians are pretty resourceful i mean like facebook was banned for decades and i mean iranians are very resourceful people i've spent time there and they're like oh yeah that all of this stuff's bad but here's my facebook page and here's my instagram i'm like okay yeah it's like it's like you're using twitter and brisland it's the same thing yeah um totally And by the way, I'm not a sanctions expert, but I'm pretty sure that even if you've got a secondary market of crypto that's being used in Iran to trade, that's not a sanctions violation.

33:20There's no violation because nobody owns the asset. Exactly. Exactly. And on the Iran side, too, right? It's just like normal everyday Joes just using crypto because, you know, they need to buy something from Temu or something. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, it's not a big deal. The currency keeps falling in value. So it's something, you know. Yeah, exactly. At the same time, right? Is that something that is that something that the issuers of those currencies or, you know, the organization that's it behind them might want to know on the chance that they run into issues? Yeah, probably.

33:56They'll probably want to know that. Or we have also seen direct relationships between wallet addresses of certain tokens and Iranian exchanges that are hard to find. We are monitoring for things like that, and we frequently do find them. So I think it cuts both ways. And without getting too much into the policy side, I think the standards should just be like, are you trying as a company right are you trying and are you are you being like a good crypto citizen and if you are and you know uh regardless of the tools that you're using it's not you have to be using those tools we're not perfect right but like if you're being a good citizen and you're trying um you're trying to do the right thing and dress in the right way i don't think there's anything wrong with that um but you know at the same time i think um uh there's a lot of players in crypto that are not fun and actively turning a blind eye.

34:55And, you know, and of course, like, that's just like, like Iran is like kind of like a sexy thing, right? For everyone, like, you know, oh shit, something bad is happening in Iran. There's scams that are actually affecting these exchanges and these platforms in ways that actually affect their business, right? Like, you know, fake smart contracts that are impersonating official tokens and stuff like that, that we also take down. But yeah, we also do. RAOUL PAL I want to come into the private sector stuff in a sec, but there's a few more state actor stuff that's always interesting.

35:29China, my mental model of this space is that Coinbase is the US representative of this new world. It's blessed. It's like Google. It's like the chosen one. Finance and a couple of the other Asian exchanges are Chinese-linked in that way. I think that the Chinese wealthy use it as capital flight or capital in, capital out. It's allowed, and then it's not allowed, like China trying to pull back capital now. I think there's probably quite a lot of selling coming out of China. How do you see the Chinese using this? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the - We'll get into North Korea at the end, because that's the big one.

36:12I want to do China and Russia. No, I would say China is a little bit more complicated, especially as it's related to the centralized exchanges. I'm not sure that the analogy, actually, I think that the analogy is not US Coinbase, China, Binance. I actually don't think that. I think that it's a lot, I think that Binance, it's a lot more nuanced on the ground. Now, that doesn't mean that Chinese people, just like Americans, are not using Binance, they are, right? And legitimately so. But I think, you know, China's particular relationship with crypto is like ours. It's complicated. And so, but we will see what happens.

37:04I think that China lays, I think that there's a lot more bark than bite in what their official stated policy is for sure, too. And I do also think that they're using Hong Kong as a testing ground for different businesses and different business opportunities that will then at some point be onboarded into the mainland. But the exchanges themselves, though, finance is a country unto itself, man. with the amount of success that they have seen. RAOUL PAL, In a decentralized country, because it's everywhere and nowhere. It's gigantic. RAOUL PAL, Yep. Yep, exactly. RAOUL PAL, They really tried to clean up their acts, I guess.

37:47RAOUL PAL, That's what I was going to say. Yeah, you beat me to it. That's exactly what I was going to say. Yeah, I do see this kind of like, I know this is a little bit off topic, but I do see this widening gap between like companies that are moving into the hey okay we're no shit gonna clean up Iraq now and those that that's what kind of what I was alluding to before and those that are firmly in the we are not going to try screw off camp and I think before there was a lot in the gray zone in the middle. And now it's, it's starting to, it's starting to go like that. Like another one is OKX. Like, OK, like we talked with OKX.

38:35We don't have a contract with them. So I don't want to imply that, but we do talk with them on some issues and we've gone back and forth. I think they're trying, you know, I mean, finance, I mean, finance has their own financial intelligence unit that's bigger than Incas, you know? So, so I think they're trying, That doesn't mean that they're perfect either. They still have a long way to go, but they're off the X for sure. And the Russians, they're smart people as well. They're obviously using crypto rails or whatever they can. What kind of Russian side of things and the sanctions, how does that all work?

39:10Or again, is it a non-sanctionable thing and we just use it to monitor flows? I mean, we've tried sanctioning wallet addresses. you know like it's i don't know i i think i think sanctioning wallet address is kind of silly um like i just like uh you know um you can sanction a wallet address and then you can follow the flow of funds to from that sanctioned wallet address to other wallets but like you know businesses are running into all the time now like they interact with a wallet address that was like, you know, 17 hops away from a sanctioned wallet address. And there's like a fraction of the cent in that wallet address and it's getting flagged.

39:52It's like, this is right. At the same time, can crypto is crypto being used for like what I would not like, not necessarily. I mean, sometimes it is straight sanctions evasion or at least like say what I would call sanctioned avoidance, weakening the power of our sanctions to begin with, yeah, that's happening. But it happens outside of crypto too. I mean, we can sanction it. Any mechanism they can. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we sanction a company and the person that owns that company, and then if we don't, if Inka, for example, doesn't have an on-tept list, that person's cousin starts a new company and voila, problem solved.

40:37You know what I mean? So that happens both inside and outside of crypto as well. You just need to acknowledge both. But you can do it really quickly in crypto, right? I can split up a fresh wallet address on any L1 pretty quick. So yeah, I mean, it's happening. RAOUL PAL, And also, we sent a very big signal to Russia by basically robbing them of their reserves. When you say the US dollar is not the US dollar for you guys, you're going to push them into this other world. RUHLEN BOOTHERNANI, Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Particularly when they sanctioned all the yachts and all of the stuff without due process.

41:14It's like, that was, I think, a big mistake because it forces people outside and the sovereigns to think about what is my life. New ways. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, they already were too. I mean, I got this quote stuck in my mind going back to China. It was from Don't quote me on who said it, but it was somebody like the digital assets specialist to the Central Bank of China, who a couple of years ago said that they're taking a horse race approach to crypto, which is basically like the first to market, the country that does the best with innovation is going to take ultimately all of finance, is what he was basically saying.

42:07There's acknowledgment on the ground that this is happening. This is why, by the way, I think that the US needs to pull their heads out of their asses on the regulatory side. RAOUL PAL, So in the private sector, the biggest problem of all is North Korea. How the hell do we stop all of their hackers? Because they're outside of the system. We force them outside of the system. And they've become a huge problem, not from just moving money around to get access to dollars, but because they're so incentivized to get dollars on the ground because nobody earns money, they're hacking everything. So I'm sure a lot of what you have to do is North Korean hackers.

42:45Yeah, we deal with them fairly regularly.

42:50Well, so day to day, yes, we deal with them. And we work with private sector, our private sector clients, not only to like identify where, when, how that is happening, but then we also coordinate with law enforcement on their behalf. So if something bad happens, you know, we can have our federal side pick up the phone and call somebody at DHS or FBI or wherever it is. And you can basically get immediate, you know, big USG coordination on the bad thing that's happening. But can we do that? I mean, they just take money and there's not what we can do about it. Well, there are some things that you can do.

43:33So if the money's gone, one thing that you can do is if you move fast enough, you can freeze those assets as they're being transferred from place to place. If it's a place that has freezable assets, right? So if the assets are moved to a centralized exchange, we can get a court order that freezes the assets. with Inka, I actually started up a law firm specific for this purpose. So we have like a little mini law firm arm now where you don't actually need to coordinate with law enforcement. We can get what's called TRO, a temporary restraining order, in 24 hours with the right set of facts. So we can do it really fast.

44:07And typically, even North Korean hackers, they're not moving money because the volumes are so big, right? They're typically like moving it in chunks. So if they steal, it just depends on the amount of money stolen. But if they steal in the low millions, typically what they're doing is they're moving those assets into an account that they have somewhere. And then from there, collecting more stolen illicit assets until it's a sufficient amount for them to move it. So we can freeze assets. and then the other thing that you can do that happens a lot is they have insider attacks where somebody gets a job.

44:48I'm sure you did. Did you read about this? How they interview for jobs and get jobs in tech companies. So if you're worried that this is a problem for all of your watchers and listeners, all you need to do is one of your interview questions needs to be like, okay, read this statement. The North Korean regime is full of idiots and I expressly, you know, espouse the downfall of the Kim Jong-un regime. And then if they're willing to say it on camera while they're being filmed, then they're not a North Korean spy. If they're not and they hang up on you, you are probably about to get out. You can also have them like rip up the picture of the leader on screen and film it.

45:35So, you know, people hearing us talk will think, oh, my God, you know, There's so much illicit activity on chain, but it's a small fraction. And it's a small fraction of, I guess, what you do as well. So what else are people in the private sector doing to kind of understand their business, use your skill sets in ways that's not just about hacking, but just about the understanding of what's going on? Because I don't want to lead people to believe this is a whole dark, murky world. It's a fraction of that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it is. So all that, as I said, the sexy stuff, like Russia and Iran and all that kind of stuff, you're right.

46:20It's an important part of if you're running a business, your risk mitigation strategy, because one slip up there can be your downfall. It's like you need to pay attention to it. But you're absolutely right. It's not a large percentage of what these businesses are having to deal with, nor is it, by the way, even a large percentage of what we do for our clients. You're right. We're doing a lot of other stuff. One of the things that I'm actually more worried about that I think is going to come down, and this is still in the world of illicit. There's a lot of non-illicit stuff that we do, but in the world of illicit stuff is just like scams by scammers that are having such an impact.

47:06I've actually spoken to multiple large, I won't name who, but like large financial, like fintech forward financial service providers in the United States who want to get more into crypto, but are worried about doing so because of the amount of just like scams that are happening. Like where, and it can be anything like, you know, the one I mentioned was fake smart contracts impersonating real tokens, right? or it could be like fake airdrops or it could be like pig butchering scams where some unwitting person that has never invested in crypto before is told to send their life savings through a particular stable coin or through a particular financial service.

47:53Things like that is actually stopping more of the crypto industry from being adopted here in the United States. And so we work really hard to take those bad guys down. even more so than the big sexy stuff, because that is honestly stopping the industry. RAOUL PAL How do we stop them? Because they pop up everywhere. Pump.fun just creates a million more scammers who just launch something, rug pull everybody. That's one method of a scam. The others are the fake websites and the click through and the draining money from wallets and the NFT frauds. I mean, it's endless. RAOUL PAL It is endless. Yeah.

48:31Yeah. Yeah. The way that happens in non crypto to the Nigerian print scam or this, there's everybody wants to take your money. That's the general rule of life. It's, it's, this is like, this is, this is old scams just with new, with, you know, new, new technology, right? It's the same shit. So no, you're right. And, and, and what Inca's, what Inca's goal is all sorts of intelligence to help stop it. We block those websites. We provide the data to block the websites, to block the wallet addresses, but not just that, the people, the companies. That makes it harder. Still, though, it's still popping up.

49:15It's still not enough. So now we've got this entire actionable arm, where honestly what we're trying to do is make it not worth our while to use crypto anymore. So we're going out and we're freezing assets very quickly, right? We're sharing, we're starting up like information sharing agreements between organizations. Some of it just on the private side, right? Between different companies that are facing the same type of issue so that they can share data amongst themselves and, you know, therefore kind of grow the database on what should be blocked. And that's what we're doing in the hope that eventually we get enough data and we take enough of their money that they just go elsewhere, go back to only using the banking sector, right?

50:02Or elsewhere, cash. RAOUL PAL, MD, So what are you seeing on the non-illicit side? What kind of work are you doing there? ASH BENNINGTON, Yeah, yeah. So we do a ton of work with market data analytics, too. So we look at stablecoins as an example, right? So how and where stablecoin pairs are being traded, what the real versus fake trading volume is, if market makers are living up to their SLAs, right? Or if they're just like jumping. RAOUL PAL That's a big deal, because the market makers have a lot of power, they get given a lot of money, and it's pretty opaque. ED HARRISON Yes, exactly. Yeah. So we've got some analytics.

50:45We work with - RAOUL PAL These guys are unregulated. That's part of the issue. And it's hard analytics to see if they're actually doing their job well or if they're just dumping, regularly dumping. I'll find it for you if you're interested or if the folks watching are interested. but there's this dude who went on like a YouTube rant, like spree talking about how he creates fake market activity for some of the big market makers. So some Russian dude, he runs like an outfit in like Moscow or something just doing this, which that's a problem, right? That's a problem for our crypto clients, right?

51:33If that's actually happening. So we've got data analytics that can, that does a deep dive into these markets to see where and how liquidity is being provided. Saving everybody money, making sure that markets are efficient. It's not illicit, but it's an important aspect of what we do too. RAOUL PAL Yeah, because that behavior was banned in financial markets a long time ago via regulation. We've seen Jane Street step away from being not good actors and getting the US government on them. But we've got a bunch of these big market makers who, they're just private trading shops that can basically do anything they want.

52:14And if they don't, you have to sue them, and they have more money than everybody. RAOUL PAL, MD, PhD That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And that's hurting the industry, too, right? And ultimately, really, who is hurting is retail investors, right? Retail investors are going to be the ones that I disagree. again. Are people using your service as well for understanding growth strategy and other stuff? If you have a vision of what's moving, how it's moving, where the opportunities are, that kind of stuff. Absolutely. Without naming the company, we did a whole deep dive analysis for a large social media platform that was going to launch their own token, looking into remittances from the Philippines and from one other country.

53:06So they wanted to know basically, who are the power players in the ground? Are they using crypto? So what are they using? What does market entry look like? Things like that. We pulled all that intelligence together for them too. So yeah, that's a good question. RAOUL PAL, MD, PhD. Another question that I've been thinking through is what Elon is building with X. He's talked about, he's already got money transmission licenses in whatever states. It's a stupid process to go through. And he's paying creators on X, but you can't, I'm in the Cayman Islands, we can't have Stripe, I can't get paid. If you're in Nigeria and you happen to be in Nigeria on Twitter, you don't get paid.

53:47You're an Indonesian Twitter, right? It doesn't function in that way. And the idea would be that he is setting it up to use Doge, for example. Are we seeing these Web2 players starting to understand how enabling this is? Obviously, the Facebook team that's now SWE and Aptos, whatever, got shut down because of this. But it feels that this is going to be another big thing. It's only going to be more work for you. So it's good for you. It's good for me either way. It feels like that's coming. What do you think? Oh, yeah, it's coming. It's coming. I think too, the Tread5 players already knew and they know.

54:39They know that this is coming.

54:44and I think with the change in administration now, you know, they're going to, a lot of them at least are kind of like hovering over the button, just waiting to play. Right. And I think that's both the big Web 2 players plus the financial system. They're all like... Both, that's right, man. Yep, both. Absolutely, absolutely. But like, you know, with the current administration and with the way that the regulators were approaching the market, it was just a cost-benefit analysis for them of like, listen, this is going to be too much of a headache right now. We'll just deal with this when something changes.

55:17And now I think that something has come. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next four years because I think you're going to see a ton of Web2 participants, of TradFi participants, all ready to go and jumping in. It's going to be a gold rush for sure. for sure, which is going to be obviously good for me. RAOUL PAL, So final two questions. What are you personally most excited for in the space to come? And what do you fear the most? RON ALBINIUSSKI, That's a tough question.

55:56I'm kind of like a political science, international geopolitics nerd, ultimately. That's why I joined the Air Force, right? And I went to Interpol and, you know, I had designs. It was a little bit too bureaucratic of an organization for me, but, you know, I had designs to be a Jag, you know, for my career and everything. And that's why I still have one foot in, you know. But I am interested to see, like, you know, there's this giant rush, as you know, of stable clients coming into the market. Like, there's a bunch of them, right? And I just, I'm interested to see how that is going to play out and what the geopolitical ramifications of that are going to be.

56:40And then I obviously I'm throwing myself into that ring too. You know, like we're playing, we're playing the game there. So that, that's what's most exciting. Just like how all of that is going to play out. How about you? What's your answer to the first question? RAOUL PAL I'm just most excited about the fact that the growth of adoption of this technology is the fastest in all recorded history. And what we're doing is democratizing access to an investment asset that also gives you financial freedom. At the end of it, the ability to do and give people control of their finances or identity and all the things we can do with crypto, it's just super empowering for so many people.

57:26I can't express how many people I've met, Filipinos, Indonesians, Malaysians, Brazilians, Argentinians, where this has completely changed their lives. And it's not just about living in a country with weak currency. It's like scarce hard assets like gold or real estate are unaffordable to most people. And here you've got a global homogenous investment asset that's hard, that's fractionizable. So whatever your weekly wage is, you can invest 10%. And so you don't get left behind. If we think about how the rich-poor divide is so big now, this is, we know how broken the financial system is at a very big level.

58:10That's what I get excited about. It's a complete reordering of the financial system and society somewhat in this. RAOUL PAL, MD, PhD No, I could not agree more. That was a better answer than mine. You should have gone first. RAOUL PAL Well, stablecoins is part of it. RAOUL PAL No, it is. RAOUL PAL I mean, again, one of the funny things, I get my hair cut here in the Cayman Islands, a bunch of Filipinos, and they're crypto junkies, because they love gambling. And I'm like, why are you guys so into crypto? They're like, simple, we send money home to our family in stablecoins. And I'm like, oh, they said, you've got to understand, there is no access to US dollars for us, and now we've got instantaneous US dollars across borders, and we can save in dollars, and buy international goods in dollars.

58:56He said, it's a game changer. RAOUL PAL, Yeah. I would say, just to ride on your coattails on that answer, even just ease of payment. Take everything else, like you said, just ease of payment, even in the United States. I mean, so like we rely on credit cards, right? But there's a whole game, you know, that happens with credit cards. There's not a good way for us just to like spend our cash without a corporate intermediary, even in the United States. And so like the U.S. is now launching FedNow, which like I don't actually know where it is. But if you look at a country, you mentioned Brazil, for example.

59:46So Brazil has PIX. OK, it's Brazil only. But they have a system where you can basically keep your money at the bank or with like their version of the Federal Reserve. And it's it's no cost, zero dollars, no interest. You can put your money in there and then you have a PIX and you can buy buy things and sell things and use PIX. So you can put money onto your PIX account and send money from your PIX account with no fees whatsoever. And for like you or me, not necessarily a big deal. But for a person that sells coconuts on the street, where I go to, I visit Brazil a lot, that's huge, right? They're not having to handle cash.

1:00:37India rolled this out to 1.4 billion people, the United Payments Interface, which is unbelievable. No middlemen, instantaneous payments to small micro payments on a mobile phone. And then the government built an API, and you can build fintech companies on top. It's just like, oh, cool. Yeah, it's really cool. It's really cool. And they're about to launch a CVDC because banknotes are still so prevalent. And the idea, and I've seen the working example, is you have the banknote on your phone and just flick it to the other person. That's awesome. Yeah. Again, people say, how much cash do you actually use?

1:01:20Basically, I use cash. Valet parking is about the only time I ever use cash. Well, maybe your haircuts. No, I don't even know. I just add a tip to the credit card. There we go. Yeah. RAOUL PAL, And OK, the final question, what worries you the most in this whole space? Because you see a lot of bad things too. CHRIS BROADFOOT, Yeah, honestly, the things that, yeah, we see a lot of bad, but even the bad stuff that we see, I think from a macro view, the micro view worries me. I see crypto being used for bad shit, and that upsets me. As long as the internet has been forever. Exactly. Everything else, cash too.

1:02:11But from a macro view, that's where I was heading. It's like any neutral technology is going to be used for both bad and good. And so long as the players in the space that are building are ultimately well-intentioned, even if they're not getting it right, I think it's okay. And so, and I do see crypto heading in that direction. So from a macro viewpoint, actually, I'm not, there's not like any particular thing, but I'm like, oh God, this thing that's coming, I'm like, you know, I'm really, I'm really stressing out about it. I don't think that. I think that, I think over time, again, from a macro view, crypto is going to be adopted more and more.

1:02:55We're seeing a lot of players move into the good guy camp or trying to be a good guy camp. and ultimately the bad guys will just get snucked out, you know, via Inca and other players. Yeah, maturity leads to that over time. Once it gets more mature, it becomes that way. That's it. Also, I mean, a super interesting conversation. I think we'll try and share some of the research reports that you guys write because you write some stuff. And I think people will be interested in it because it'll just give them a different perspective and understanding. So I'd love to share those. But Adam, thank you ever so much for unveiling a little bit about what happens behind the scenes in the cryptocurrency markets and what you guys, others are doing, how the governments all play out.

1:03:36It's been super interesting. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and for having me. I really appreciate it. Not at all. Take care. Bye. So I think you can see from this conversation that blockchains are much bigger than any of us really understand. They're being used by so many players in so many ways. And we think of this surveillance state as where we are today and what's going on. But what we can see is the coordination and the data required and the data analytics required to do that. It's a long way away. But that on-chain, we can see who's doing what. And behind that is the story of finance.

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