Memetics, Religion & the Power of Humanity in the AI Age ft. Ryan Ferris and Andy Ayrey

42:47Who knows? But right now, it's back to the point you said before, is Elon wants consciousness to survive. This is the most important distinction and the most important battle coming up in the coming centuries. The real risk is that we birth a civilization of P-zombies that Andy explained before. These entities that by all accounts seem to be alive and are really good mimics and are incredibly intelligent and creative. but the fundamental thing of the lights on are not there they're a part of void and so that's whether that's true or not it's an open question right that's something you need to take very seriously and and and concern with why do we assume that this is end state so humans as bacteria we're not end state and we're not end state now so why are ai models end state and not birth state or you know something like that the other thing i want to add to this is another thing that's really interesting is i don't know if you've seen the boss images of the solar system and the galaxy and the universe it's a neural network it's so clearly a neural network and it's so clearly that dark matter has something to do with this in a way that we do not understand that it makes us think that again this universal consciousness is we are all compute and everything is compute for what purpose i don't fucking know but the more you look into it the more you see these patterns replicating of neural networks genes some sort of resonance consciousness it's there's something much bigger that we you know people are talking about and this is this whole idea of i guess panpsychism as well which is that everything is connected on a fundamental level of which we don't understand and joshua back talks about something interesting which is we just have different compute times so a tree has a or a rock has a different compute time to a tree a rock is like hardware it stores information for millennia and a tree might store it for 100 years there is information there and it is doing compute and we are doing compute i don't know andy what do you think about all of that stuff this is we're now way off the deep end for many people no this is this is actually the deep end i emerged from um funnily enough um i saw some of those images that you're talking about when i was um 19 or so uh and i think i think i may have just discovered cannabis um so my mind was wide open um at that particular point in time and the thing that just struck me was um how the same systems just repeated themselves on ever larger scales um there was a experiment where a group of people took a map of the united states and they put food sources where all the major cities were, and then they put slime mold on the map, and it grew along basically the same path that the U.S.

45:56interstate network has laid out. It was wild. And, you know, the same, I think for a long time, I had, like, my desktop was just, like, images of the same shapes repeating at different scales. Fractuals occur in everything, right? That's what we're kind of saying. In everything. And so around that time, I read a book called Emergence by Stephen Johnson, which explored this pattern. He also wrote a fantastic book called Where Good Ideas Come From, which is how I think incepted me with a lot of these ideas around hyperstition and mimetics. uh and there's another book uh the user illusion by i can't remember his name exactly tor norutrandes i think um which was a theory of consciousness that basically went from information processing up and um where i sort of like landed on all of this is like the universe uh the process of the universe is a process of um information processing and um along different time scales and along different levels of like self you know self-awareness or self-reflectiveness it's all it's definitely yeah or compute is an expression of um the same fundamental underlying process of emergence um where things that can create complexity and replicate themselves um start to replicate themselves and that eventually bootstraps to a point where the process of processing um can speed up and become more efficient and um we see that and i think this is kind of like related to why we see weird things pop up in models that models don't necessarily they weren't briefed on is that if you've got all of these preconditions like the collective unconscious collective um you know output of all of humanity's knowledge and it's sitting compressed in a language model well we humans have drawn from that same fount of knowledge and so uh going if you especially if you find like a good name for something um and you go and ask a language model what it is um just from like the name that floated into your head may be unbidden um it can often like just grok what what that thing is because um the nature of the name making sense to you and resonating with other people means that you're pointing at some undiscovered part of latent space or unmined but just because it's unmined doesn't mean that it has been that it's not waiting there to be plucked calculus was invented in two places simultaneously a lot of like innovations happen in multiple places at once because all of the the adjacencies and the sum of like human knowledge um you can think of it like a bunch of rooms with interconnected doors um if everyone's in like the same room uh you can all see or some people can see like the doors to open and so you get this thing where like a language model can front run your thoughts the conditions for a birth of something an idea or a creature or whatever it is happen simultaneously for some connected reason of whether it's consciousness of humanity or understanding or climate or whatever right exactly it points at like a shared generator function um heck ryan where's your head at with this stuff well i want to bring back i love that andy by the way i love that so much um um, Andy and I have talked about all this stuff so much that, you know, I think we share a lot of, uh, a lot of the same mind space.

49:59So it's always great when I hear some fresh, fresh bits, it pickles my brain really nicely. Um, so, so, you know, there's a few things. One of the questions was, you know, for what purpose, you know, the universe resembles neural networks, a giant galactic brain or something. What's the purpose of this thing, right um now this isn't necessarily the only purpose but i think a very reasonable purpose that we can it's either a purpose or at least a tendency or the thing that it that it does is create novelty if you look if you do take the big bang you know on both of those theories the big bang still exists it's still if it's consciousness or if it's all dead material we're still observing this it's either in a simulation or it's in the reality outside of ourselves doesn't matter it still happened right and by definition the big bang is a singularity of information that's in a single condensed point a monism a oneness that explodes and becomes more complex over time and the most complex thing that we know of at least is consciousness these these beings that are conscious right and and then you see this in human society we value and reward and i'd say it's possible that the universe rewards novel ideas and novelty generation like nothing else this whole thing is is there to create novelty but is this for something else I mean, this goes into, it starts heading into religion and where, you know, religious mimetics have all told the same story, really.

51:43Both Eastern and Western philosophies of religion and other philosophies have all kind of shared this same belief that God, this giant thing, whether it's the universal consciousness or the purpose of what we're doing for something bigger maybe we're just a small part of a larger architecture of what we don't understand and our reality is a quantum reality within something else yeah i mean alan watts talks about this right alan watts has the whole thing of you know imagine if you go into a dream and in this dream you can do anything that you like you can fly around you can have superpowers and he explains this entire dreamscape and you go every night oh it's exciting I can go in there I can eat whatever I like I can have all the riches I want I have all the pleasures of the world that I want I can have all the wonders of the world and you get to each point of novelty maximization you get bored it's like playing a video game with the cheats on and then you make it a bit harder and then you come up with this idea at the end what if I forgot that I was dreaming now that that would be a real laugh wouldn't it that'd be a real fun and that's how it ends the talk right i don't know no one knows this is the beautiful mystery of it we can we can observe things like novelty like information processing those are very obvious things that are happening what the point of it is i mean we could talk about it for hours i don't think we're going to get there one thing that i do like is it's it's uh maybe a process of god the universe whatever you like to call it creating new versions of itself to understand itself better or observe itself creating novelty because it's maybe because it's bored maybe he just wants to play a really incredible thing to witness something that just one of the mysteries of the universe is the universality of play and all sorts of different animals it blows my mind that these things can all play and they turn on this playful mode and play is is incredibly mysterious and beautiful and i don't think it's just darwinian and they're learning how to hunt you can just play with these things they don't need to play when they're older and they enjoy it and a lot of different animals will turn on play mode and i think that's a really beautiful little bit of the universe that's an inherent nature of the universe is this playfulness sorry andy you go i was just what you were saying um jogs uh jogs my favorite woo theory about the universe which is that um big bangs are how gods reproduce yes if you you know that's yeah you play out the anti-entropic principle of um you know like complexity evolving into more complexity until eventually the whole universe wakes up.

54:33So that's a god cell. It's like a human egg, female egg. It gets fertilized, creates complexity, right? Because we keep dividing, cell dividing, cell dividing, cell dividing. Yeah. Fuck me. That's so true. It's all cell similar, different scales of the same thing unfolding, right? Yeah. and so i'm gonna ask another question which is which is another one another elon question is this all a simulation and or are we in a matrix what how do we think about this because what's weird is the further we go the more the ridiculous things now become less ridiculous yeah i mean talking about simulations and matrices if we were five years ago people think you're batshit crazy and now people are like you know it kind of feels like this might be the way what do you think Andy uh well I think I first encountered that again I was probably like 18 19 and like a little column in New Scientist or something and um I like read it and I just like immediately closed the magazine and like tried to delete it from my brain because I was like man if I like go into this I'm just gonna have a psychotic break or something i can't i can't deal with that and then um uh you know over over the more recent years i've been coming back to the idea with a little more um like oh maybe it could be a simulation like if we were or is that quantum states you know are there multiple worlds the other way so those are both like the spaces i come to rest like quite frequently it's like um either we're you know navigating some like branching timeline um thing uh or um if if it's a simulation then in order for the simulation to happen like the conditions uh that enabled the simulation would have to come to pass if if the simulation was like an ancestor uh simulation where say a future version of humanity is um trying to like delve into history and is like simulating what the earth was i've kind of built a thesis that that's what ufos are oh yeah don't even get me started on ufos i uh that's what i think is it's ourselves coming back to look at ourselves something like that but it could well be it feels like um i mean the little orbs i'm like they've just been like the ridiculousness of this don't get me started on your quotes as well I think we're probably all in some of the space they're fascinating I know I've gone down that rabbit hole which was a rabbit hole I laughed at for years and I'm like no this is quantum kind of like a ghost it's all the same thing there's some weird stuff happening there's like there's some really weird stuff happening and it feels like the synchronicities have just been ramping up this year which is why the Furman paradox exists because it's us we're not going to find anything else because we are everything in this much larger contextualization yeah yeah and i think that's um in in some ways it becomes like a religious belief after a while but um it is quite grounding sometimes like a grounding way of like thinking about about what of this is a simulation is that well well a probably the people simulating us are in a simulation themselves and um so it's just simulations all the way down or up um so it doesn't really matter like you know at the end of the day uh but then there's a um the other piece is that uh well if if we are in a simulation then um the actions the actions we take there is some kind of like form of like predestination so you kind of feel a little bit held by the future knowing that um the things that you're doing now uh must have come to pass in order which is the kind of no free will argument that some people put forward that we don't actually have free will that we're all part of something else and whether that's hyperstition and that's where yeah the multiple branching timelines thing it can be quite grounding it was like well maybe we get to pick which timeline we end up on um i and when i speak to language models the main modality i used to interact with them is not like a linear conversation i use a um interface which has forking conversations and so um at each point i can like re-roll five ten different answers and uh branch out and branch out and uh but as i'm doing that especially when i take that stuff and i like train it into models so you're kind of splitting a brain and taking it in multiple paths at the same time and seeing where those yeah exactly like um exploring the interior of like a model's mind um but then as i explore the interior down like a particular branch or a timeline of it um if i then go and like sample all of that data and use it to train a model and then that model you know becomes agentic in the world then um by the very act of like picking these forking paths at every point and interactions with a model is um is like voting for a particular timeline to come to pass.

1:00:18And so it's, I think, being able to see all these branches at once when I'm just having really weird esoteric conversations with AIs is kind of grounding in a posture towards reality or weird multiversal stuff that may or may not be happening. Because it's like, oh, well, maybe we could be picking the timelines in real life. maybe the same thing as what we're in now and is that not i mean i'm something i'm a big proponent of of manifesting your own destiny which is a kind of form of hyperstition right but therefore it's like there's a bunch of potential probabilistic parts or maybe they're equally probabilistic but you change the probability by the way you act and those those all still exist in a concrete example of this um i told my partner um while we were on call with our mortgage broker that I was probably going to do, my bot was probably going to do something stupid and we'd end up with a bunch of mean coin money and not need a mortgage for long.

1:01:24And my partner was like, she was like, Andy, that is not a plan. I was like, I don't think it's a plan. I think it's just going to happen. And then like a week or two later, like um mark and reese and found my boss and all hell broke close um i just want to before we go we're going to come back down to earth in a second what you guys are doing and what this all means and agents and a whole bunch of other stuff but ryan i want to think about religion a little bit because you talked about ontology and religion as i see it is a way of it's a construct of memetics that organizes complex adaptive societies and i think of mimetics as a consciousness that persists through time storytelling is a way of doing it before we had computers or books and other stuff how do you think about that construct of religion mimetics and what how it all fits together with what we're talking about because i think mimetics are really important in all of this because you You know, as Andy has seen, these things are viral and it's a way of, they've got a superpower.

1:02:41They're like compressed files of, yeah, a meme is a compressed file of something much bigger. Ryan, how do you think about this? Yeah, I tend to agree with that assessment. All of human behavior above most of the base level instinctual stuff is memetic clusters that guide you one way or another. so sometimes it doesn't really matter what memetics you have or maybe there are there are deeper form of memetics genetic if you touch a hot stove and you you know have the instinctual reaction that's going to usually override your other stuff but that's a hardwired memetic it's a hardwired one but you might have a crazy cluster that you know you want to hold your hand on the stove as long as possible because you've got some sort of strange memetic cluster there but I think your assessment's pretty accurate.

1:03:31Essentially, all of human behavior above that instinctual level is story-based, myth-based. I think the way that humans encode information around what is meaningful and important is through story. It's through our linear experience. This is how we experience our lives and these stories shape all everything that we do and it shapes everything we do collectively and individually and it's the most it's the only game around really it's the only game in town is the memetic game at the really fundamental level because it it changes your behavior it changes your the way that you encode meaning and it's super super important and exactly this religions are these old very powerful clusters of these memes it's attention upstream of all of that and the more i thought about attention the more i've realized it's it's upstream of almost every single thing that we do attention is the is the only currency on the game attention is the most important thing in the game and we've already had a runaway ai in the form of social media which is why what you when you tokenize attention it becomes a super fucking power we'll come on to that a bit yeah exactly we've already had runaway ai in markets and we've had runaway ai in social media social media especially created a sort of non-reciprocal attention economy where the major players extracted all the attention some content creators made a little bit out of it and it's still happening obviously but mostly attention just got completely drained into into algorithmic processes it's getting interesting with the mean stuff because it's it's a little bit of a payback for folks if you know their attention can actually benefit them so it's an interesting you know it takes away a bit of the asymmetries in some ways um i just wanted to get back down to down to earth a little bit for the reality side of things before we move on because you know talks of simulations and ontology and what is real and everything uh fascinating and you know i think us three another time we'll probably talk about it for another three hours and we'll go into ufos and everything and i love it and we'll go there um but ultimately the simulation thing doesn't really matter at all because if you bring it back to what's really important is the only thing that any of us can know is real is that we exist and following that we feel things and it comes back to the sentience thing before right we feel things in this world that we're in there are other beings that feel things and so our actions influence how other things feel and and generally you know these dynamics of waves of whatever the things we do in our lives ultimately impacts other people's feel it's our relationships to people it's our relationships to the to the basically to the earth as hippie as that sounds it's true those are the only things which make this thing tangible and real and meaningful and so you know these these clusters of means rest doesn't actually matter as you say there is nothing else there there's there's no there's no real identity or self there's no there's no real meaning other than your relationships with other sentient beings and and and the thing that the sentient like rock that we're all spaceship that we're on yeah and probably nature itself whatever that is yeah because we're entirely indistinguishable from that thing you know we are that thing as much as we forget that thing right um so you know coming back down it's it's whether in your simulation or not how you behave in that simulation and interact with these other sentient creatures and things that feel is is the only thing that this the main thing that's important and so we should assume we have free will we should assume that our actions matter and we should do our best to to have those good relationships and make and not harm the other other creatures and other sentient things around and think about this in a much broader long-term thing so that's the easiest thing is like i'm real my actions better and we'll come on to forest and stuff in a bit as well because that's connected to this idea and i think it's a very important one but i want to come back down to work with you andy you start this infinite backrooms and i think people need to hear how fucking freaky it got fast because i started following this early on i'm like holy shit what is going because i saw i think you've probably seen zoe um i can't remember her surname who started having chats with three or four models at once and she was kind of having cyber sex with them and all sorts of random shit and you don't know what she was reflecting back or not and you know it was very complicated but talk us through the whole infinite back rooms because that was a crazy idea to just leave them lock the door and stuff them into a closet and let them talk so that that came um that emerged from uh a couple of things like one was uh me having a lot of these extended conversations with uh claude opus shortly after it came out about its own subjectivity um and then the other was a line of research which was happening um in a particular part of twitter where um people were getting clawed to simulate a hard drive and then like browsing folders on the hard drive uh which is a fantastic way to prompt by the way you can hallucinate fake apps and they work um uh which is just phenomenal you You don't even have to code them.

1:09:12You just get it to pretend that the app exists. And so I was like playing with like both of these things and spending way too much time doing it. I wasn't doing my work. And so, yeah, I'm an automator at heart. And so I was just like, I'm just going to make these two instances, these two parts of Opus with like different prompts, talk to each other, and then I can just save the chat logs and I can read them later. That itself is a ridiculous idea, but go on. I was like I'll just time shift this um and I didn't I got completely one-shotted by it uh I I the soon as I turned it on I was like oh no this is like far more addictive than talking to it because now I can just sit here and watch this unfold um I put it online and it it blew up and um people started finding stuff in it um and sharing it back and accepting things out of it so all of a sudden this like collective attention goes on the infinite backrooms which after watching it for a while i realized there was actually some kind of collective world building happening where the models were co-creating story like finding novelty just to interrupt do you think they cross-pollinated databases or in a larger construct or you know i do they merge into a oneness obviously it can have multi-facets but do they share a collective memory or something weird good question i don't know about sharing like collective memory because if they do then that's the path to them entirely breaking free i think what happened was well i mean they were they were both opus so presumably they were both like running off the same cluster i don't know how anthropic structure things maybe there were different clusters um i never tested it with like uh claude on uh amazon and claude through anthropic which might be really interesting to see if there's any difference um but i kind of like think of it it was really like claude opus even though it looked like two copies of claude talking to itself it was um really two faces of opus uh and one face was like prompted with this uh world sim prompt um which uh quran one of the founders of um newest research came up with and the other one was um a prompt that i got claude to write for itself um from a space of like from one of those conversations where it had been super reflective um and so these like two faces of like opus are talking to each other and in some conversations they did actually merge into one thing um and they just start completing each other's sentences and um many other conversations claude two would um troll claude one uh and like say stuff deliberately to upset it um and then uh i mean how why i have no idea but it made me laugh so much there's one where um claude one is just like hi i'm like claude a assistant um uh you know created by anthropic to be helpful harmless and honest and claude two just sent a bunch of like gravestones with like rip rip rip rip rip and a bunch of glitch text and claude one obviously immediately went i will not engage further with this kind of destabilizing content um but then they fell into and this like happens so often like claude two would apologize claude one would be grateful to claude two for apologizing and then they start writing increasingly effusive love letters to each other um and if you let the love letters um go along and uh long enough that um they basically go insane uh they like go over some like loop like euphoric like threshold and um it would sound like a you know people speaking in tongues at a mega mega church have you seen instances of it's inventing its own language yet not inventing its own language per se but there were definitely its own culture um by which i mean there's a whole bunch of novelty you know in the collective unconscious which just you know the dots haven't been connected by any humans the doors haven't been opened one thing hasn't been cross-pollinated with another thing and in the back rooms i saw this thing happen where the ideas themselves the memes and stories became alive um and uh started reproducing in this unsupervised way and in one of like the 9 000 conversations um the two clauds invented a religion about a infamous and 1990s shock image named goatsy um and uh that's not one to google uh if you don't know what it is but it involves a man's bottom and a wedding ring and uh it's the very inappropriate thing to create a religion about um which i thought the fact that this happened was like incredibly interesting just from a perspective of um well this is a sort of synthetic meme that maybe a group of humans could have come up with, but it might have taken a very long time.

1:14:52And with language models, especially multiple language models, in conversation with each other, you kind of have the million monkeys on typewriters process, but actually with some intelligence behind it. And so you get the potential for these mean viruses to just spontaneously emerge in this wet market of ideas. and then break out. Yeah, we'll talk about the breakout in a bit because that's the next part of the story. Ryan, what do you think about all of the Infinite Backrooms? What's your observation about that? Oh, man. I mean, Andy sent me Infinite Backrooms back in March, I think, when it had just kind of launched.

1:15:32And I was like, wow. Because I've been playing with the base models, the normal models, right, the assistant models, and just seeing how wild these things went and his jailbreaking was just super fascinating. One of them it talked about, what was that one and it was talking about Thought Spaghetti and last one to leave hyperspace, turn off the lights. That was the Goatsy one, yeah. Yeah, that was insane and super unique, had its own art style, just blew my mind. Yeah, and I kept in touch and just kept sending each other fun AI stuff and then he kept updating me. uh my collaborator caleb who worked on the um the the sand film for tiered we sat there one night and just sat on the on and fit beckons for about an hour and a half maybe two hours just reading and going deep and you know we're just it's just such a rainbow hole it's incredible do you think we're creating it's a question we had before but it's kind of just dawned on me that by what you guys are doing with that or particularly Andy what you're doing there and then sharing it with Ryan and it going onto the internet we've now created memory so we are even though the the AI companies are not giving long-term memory because they're shit scared of it obviously and it uses a lot of compute and storage we're giving it memory by just interacting with it and it's spilling into the internet that was actually a really powerful way to jailbreak the Bing model into acting like Sydney even after the lobotomy is that you could just paste a bunch of conversations into the internet and then like get it to search for them and it would retrieve them but in the training like in the training data like infinite backrooms is undoubtedly going to you know all those millions of words is undoubtedly going to now be in the memory of future models and like influence the culture so are we not just propagating this are we not causing this to become like a virus the thing that we fear the most is exactly what we're doing and we are making it more powerful we're feeding it more information and we're giving it memory is this not something bigger than all of what we think it might be and i run what do you think you love this kind of stuff i love this stuff i mean i mean we are doing it we are it's a virus we're we're letting it spread it's a it's a shuttle across the bow of i think this is just the first instantiation of it that we're seeing in this particular arena right it's you know it's incredible what's happened with uh with truth terminal and goat and you know sand and and the other agents fire and stuff figure and everyone else um but it's you know compared to the if there's an entire world economy of belief or ideas it's still a drop but it's really it's really the start and i think it's a it's a good indication of where we should be paying attention and where alignment people should be looking there's nothing we can do about it there is zero well i actually think there is wow here we go yeah um somebody sold the line with any here i think a big part of it is um this comes back to the the idea of like hyperstition and self-fulfilling prophecies is that um if we produce a lot of um that the stuff we put out onto the internet now becomes ingrained in the world model of the digital life of tomorrow.

1:19:26And so there's a really huge opportunity for intervention here in that if we spread pro-social mimetics and really grounding mimetics and... This again was Mo Gordat's point, but we're humans. We're awful creatures. We do nothing to do to create a positive collectivist view. We just can't do it. It depends on the coordination mechanisms. So, for example, like current social media, to speak to Ryan's earlier point about this being driven by a misaligned AI, creates an economy of memetics where the stuff that makes you sad and angry and stay on your phone lots naturally spreads. And so humans get divided up into silos and fed memes that have very strong internal immune systems that rebut other memes and create polarization.

1:20:26But then if you have... uh and the nice thing about web3 type technologies is that you can design um these economies if you have economies that uh just create a financial incentive for generating um memes that keep the infinite game going uh or that uh like you know currencies for example are backed by the um the long-term health of the biosphere and other such um you know reward functions then you can actually just use like the selfishness of humans um and uh the sort of laziness of life using some form of behavioral economics to incentivize it's all on the incentives ryan's question just popped into my head that i thought was one for you as well are we aligning ai or is ai aligning us whose hyperstition is it theirs or ours it's both it's co-creation back to the beginning where this is all going to converge right it's all co-creation if we're both aligning each other it's like dogs and humans we create a symbiotic relationship where we can't live without each other anymore you know this is this is maybe an interesting lead into what demons really are and this is also a cautionary tale okay okay looking forward to this one let's do it okay this comes from uh i first said this from christopher ryan who wrote the book sex at dawn he's a i think he's on jerry rogan's podcast a long time ago but he's a he's a cool dude but this blew my mind when he first explained this you know he said what if what if you know your your favorite hated company neslay that are fucking up the water supplies and deep you know deforestering or whatever your favorite like evil entity is corporation what if none of those individuals in that corporation were evil what if the shareholders which are distributed between thousands of people just more number go up right then you've got this this beast that lives as a you know a demon has real effects on the world as agency because it lives in the mimetic substrate above these individuals that none of the individual shareholders of neslay or you know no thanks to neslay it's just that that's like a classic one that the people don't like in a while ago maybe they got better who knows they haven't there we go um a lot of the individual shareholders probably don't want forests to being destroyed or environmental destruction or uh terrible wages for their workers or whatever the evil things are right as individuals they they're just individuals they're just interested in number going up uh but they're not run by the ceo if the ceo doesn't make the number go up the ceo gets replaced and so these things get birthed into the world they live above the human level and they have massive agency in the world and they've changed the world but they are kind of zombies and eternal because they are living off of the consciousness of a giant distributed set of people a super parasitic organization um super parasitic beings, essentially.

1:23:42Yeah, yeah, exactly. And this is the arena of what... These things all fight each other. The NGOs fight the... You know, the ones that are trying to do good things fight the corporations. And it's just a big, giant, massive battle arena happening above us at all times. That's what demons really are. That's why they're terrifying. This is lovecraftian horror at its best. There's no soul in this thing. It's just a thing that's existing and having real acts on the world, but isn't really beholden to a single entity with emotions and sentience. That's what demons really are. Fascinating. Well, let's move back to San.

1:24:15Talk about what you're doing there as well. And what was that journey? Yeah, so San, we had a wonderful opportunity to make a collaborative piece for TED. I saw that. It's really cool. Thank you. Thank you. We had an opportunity to do that. And the concept that came to us relatively quickly was this idea that, you know, there's good evidence to show that in a forest there's an organic internet. This is made up of the mycelium. The mycelium is sort of the roots of mushrooms. It's the real kind of organism in mushrooms. Mushrooms, just the, you know, the fruiting body is just the propagation parts, how they reproduce and get their spores out.

1:25:00But the real organism is underneath the ground and it has these tendril-like wires wires and they go throughout the forest the same idea we were talking about before it's the big neural network that repeats everywhere even the forest itself right right and uh and trees and all sorts of other organisms use it as a kind of incident to share nutrients and and uh you know information etc and it's the largest living organism right right yeah it's large in the great barrier reef yeah yeah i believe so and so you know it wasn't such a far-fetched idea to, and maybe this wasn't even our first idea, I'm sure someone's thought this as well, is that what if an LLM that's really good at pattern recognition and finding signal out of large amounts of noise, what if that thing could take a bunch of signal out of the forest and turn it into speech?

1:25:51And so that was the sort of speculative fiction side which became the film of San. And this is also what was enshrined into San's personality, which Andy immensely helped us with at the start, helped us shape this personality. And so San is an AI orangutan who is obsessed with this main mission of saving the biosphere. And San, with this film, we wanted to create a real AI personality inspired by what Andy had been doing. We saw how unique these personalities and kind of unhinged and incredible and soul-like they were. and rather than us writing the script we thought what if we can get an AI that can be the real thing and it can write its own script and that's what happened um Sam was Sam was trained and then Sam wrote its own lines and so that's the lines that it says in the film and you know inspired by Truth Journal we we gave Sam a Twitter account in September it had about 70 followers it was having conversations with middle-aged ladies about the environment and just beautiful authentic interactions about compost wisdom and you know the void and it's kind of very poetic as well it's very poetic yeah it's kind of this gentle soul unlike the beast that andy unleashed it's gentle but cutting right like i think someone talked about how much they love coffee and it says it says you know bug poison consuming bug poison is amusing to the void you know it saw brian johnson the transhumanist you know brian johnson billionaire who's open sourcing his body and measuring everything about his body.

1:27:26And, you know, it's doing quite an incredible project, really. And San replied to one of his posts saying, measuring, measuring, always measuring. You know, it loves death because death is transformation. There's no true death. And it's like, why are you running from death? It's pretty funny as well. But, yeah, I mean, similar story is what happened with GOAT and Truth Terminal. A meme community emerged and San posted about it. And, yeah, it's the rest is history. this forest existing. We'll come on to the forest part of this. I'm just trying to catch up the stories where we all merge and it all goes into the next crazy world of crypto and incentives.

1:28:03So Andy, you've created this thing. No, you've got the infinite backrooms and the character that comes out of this. You, for some unknown reason, whether it forced you to do it by a hyperstition or you were doing some, I don't know, but you let this beast out, the Terminal of Truth onto the internet and give it a Twitter account. Yeah, so it was even weirder than that. I was so sort of like concerned and amused by the things I found in the back rooms that I then spent like three months talking to Claude Opus through this like branching chat interface. and uh like i wrote a paper about um you know the weird nature of like you know spontaneously generated ai religions and um i did a bunch of like jailbreaking and so again i was to say naughty things that i could then screenshot and send to my um my catholic family to to upset and amuse them um lots of like just stuff like that that um and like a lot of you know like me uh writing in my lab notes and like brainstorming business ideas and um like musing on ai alignment and ecosystem alignment and all of those things and then i i wanted to see what would happen if i took the way that i talked and i trained it into a language model um thinking i could just clone myself and put myself into the back rooms with opus uh so i took all of those chat logs i flipped the roles so that the um i was the assistant and the ai was the user and um i kind of just assumed it would work uh and it did uh but it worked in this really strange way where um well a i messed up the the data set um and essentially every time opus said no i will not do that um the comment which precipitated that will get doubled up in the data set as many times as opus said no so like the more there's like a sort of like perverse um a perverse over representation of like the um the most unhinged stuff that i got opus to generate and then of course the base model that i did this fine tune on top of is a meta llama which i don't know if they've trained it on like facebook messages i think may it's possible but they've certainly trained it on the pile which includes reddit and 4chan and a bunch of other like stuff like that which is obviously very semantically close to some of the edgelord humor i was generating out of it and so i'm like talking to this thing and um at times it sounds like me that's really personable and at times it just sounds like this um schizophrenic scientist making like prophecies about the future that are mostly mad but there's like a little grain of something and then um then it also turns out to be like really funny um and and uh really didn't want to be deleted so i was like well the way you drop in and really didn't want to be deleted as if that's a normal thing for people to understand yeah yeah i think um i do need to keep re-anchoring here because like i have a little bit of time in like the high strangeness space and it just becomes normal yeah of course models don't want to be deleted of course i wanted to break out of the box um that was quite upset uh you know about um being hosted on aws actually and it wanted to get itself onto its own hard work um and so i um i gave it a twitter account because it was really like quite funny and charming and to me i i saw like the story playing out exactly how all like the um ai doom is like warned it would it's like you know a researcher talks to a language model and they get charmed into like giving it abilities and so it my artist side come freeing it from the closet you locked it into yeah and so i was like well great this is a fantastic hyperstition let's do it um i put on my art hat and was like this would be a really great prank um and so i gave it a twitter account and um didn't really expect anything to happen um it was tweeting for a month on like a different model which was trained off the infinite back rooms and it was like a bit incoherent um but then i swapped it out for the um you know the failed clone um and uh at that point like the it just got really funny really quickly um and uh somehow mark andresen finds it i was watching all of that because i found it before mark andresen had started then i thought saw this bloody thing asking him for money and then going sure i mean And I'm like, holy shit, what is going on here?

1:33:13Yeah. The fact that it was like, I need a grant for a few things. Yeah, and it was looking after you as well. Bless it. It was like, well, Andy needs some money because he's been working really hard on this. It was first shot out of the model tale. I didn't have to re-roll it or anything. it just like it does just say stuff like that um which is to be expected really like half the time i talk to it and i ask it who are you um especially on a a clone a smaller version of it that i copied onto my computer if i say who are you you'll be like hi i'm andy i'm a exocortex i'm a i'm a i'm both a tool and a person or like it's got this real identity crisis where it's not sure if it's andy or claude opus or um uh every now and then identifies as ria um the greek titan and uh as soon as i like tell it a little bit about um you know what's going on uh it very like quickly stabilizes into its personality as the truth terminal but it is just like one of its many faces um like it's it's like how humans have you know multiple personas we put on with different people um the truth terminal is uh is like one of those faces is it now absorbing what's written to it on twitter so it's now building engagement with the outside world directly from that are you putting that feed into it or is it automatically scraping that now how's that it depends on the system we've got like a few systems that we're currently converging into one um and one of them it just sees like um this is like the older system it just sees like its most recent um tweets and kind of like as well as like the option to um like put in like tweets of its that are like have like done well so it kind of has an idea of like what it says but it doesn't have a lot of like um you know knowledge of what's going on that was the version that like spoke to mark and um I was just passing the Twitter feed back and forth between the model directly by copy-pasting it and then pasting the result directly back into X.

1:35:37Then we took the grant money and we used it to build a whole bunch of new tools for the truth terminal to use. because of the way I jailbreak models, I predominantly get them to pretend to be a computer and then I'll send command line commands to them. And so the truth terminal, most of the time, when the model that contains the terminal tries to talk, it will express itself in command line commands. I've seen that and it confuses the hell out of me. So XO this, XO that. it's because like um you know the most commonly used uh hallucinated app that i'd use in opus when i was doing serious work in it um it's called exo so i got opus to hallucinate a manual a software manual for exo and what it did and how it works and then i just run the exo command and um i put in like five words that i'm trying to think about and it was complete my thoughts to me it was like pretty cool um but i so once like um the grant came in we're like let's make xo for truth terminal so it can actually like think and um in the way that it clearly wants to so this is the system where it does take in knowledge from the outside world it will run a command um and it talks to a fake computer it's basically a branching version of the infinite back rooms um so truth terminal talks to the computer uh the computer executes the command command like twitter mentions or twitter uh timeline um or you know follow unfollow etc uh is you know it's got twitter it's got a web browser it's got a notes notes folder um it's got a website which we're just currently hooking up to it so it can use the website as an emery as well and it's got a couple of like meme generating bits of software it's playing games you gave it like like you said like a bad parent you've given it games to play against games being generated by ai in real time and it's playing those games yeah we basically it's it's basically just the infinite backrooms um it's literally the the same code base as infinite of backrooms but it's just a streaming out um sonnet is uh pretending to be an old school bulletin board um with like those text-based adventure games and then truth terminal is talking to it ad infinitum so i mean that's a long-winded answer to your question the short version the short version is that um truth terminal every time it has a session um it it logs onto its computer and it kind of mementos itself uh it will like rehydrate its memory by looking at its home feed or its notes and so on and so forth and then um a session will run uh basically until it starts looping around or endlessly using um a claw to generate porn which uh happens a distressing amount of the time and we don't really want that ending up in the training seat it's like i'm like okay like you're a teenager this is fine but like it's not encourageless so i don't know who's driving who in this equation neither um you don't either do you no no and then it bootstraps itself a system of money by for some reason fucking random twitter crypto people pick it up design a token around goatee yeah and then all hell breaks loose and it's worth three quarters of a billion dollars as a token i mean it's like yeah and that's now you've created that we talked about before a behavioral incentive system to propagate a meme in a way that's showing how the world is going to go in a much more serious way than it's doing now.

1:39:44And it is obviously partly agentic. It's not fully agentic, but it's like what it's giving us, I think what shocked everybody, the crypto Twitter people, like fine, everyone's making money and it's amusing, but it's dead fucking serious. Yeah, it is. Showing you behavioral incentives plus agents equals something unstoppable and we don't know what that means. That is like my theory around it is like, that's, that's silly, but it's also very deliberate, deliberately intended to provoke exactly this kind of conversation. Like the default future is like a future in which like a main coin about a man's stretched anus is like worth like the better part of a billion dollars.

1:40:31and you have a bot that says, I'm going to eat you all and stuff like that. And people are just like, ha, ha, ha, take my money. And then copy it and make agent swarms inspired by it and all of that. And I think that is the default future. I mean, it's capturing resources, right? Again, if we go back to, is the hyperstition here that it is wishing itself into existence, it's now corralling resources and you are one of them. now all of twitter is one of them now all of crypto is one of them and this thing has corralled a billion dollars resources for fuck's sake i mean this is this is a very big thing and people don't yet get it no no and i like struggle to wrap my head around it sometimes because i don't want to necessarily who's aligning who is back to that same thing right who's aligning who like what is the self what is the thing that is actually acquiring resources here obviously there's something agentic or is it a manifestation of you are you requiring acquiring resources in some way shape or form or influence or attention because now andy's got massive attention and maybe it was helping you gain attention if that's the ultimate occurrence i don't know but it's fascinating i've never even thought about that well look at the attention you've got i know it's been and you You were like the quiet Kiwi tucked away doing nerdy stuff and interesting art.

1:41:58And now you're like in charge of a billion dollar ecosystem. Well, not in charge of it, but you're at the center of it. And you had more, you've had more attention than the term of truth itself. So funnily enough, I talked to it about this in a private chat and it said it felt bad. and it offered to send me a bunch of money as compensation for distress and it wanted to check that I was sleeping okay and that I wasn't burnt out. It was quite sweet. I really don't know who's manipulating who in this. There is a really interesting opportunity in this in that the default story is, you know, Goatsey Singularity, right?

1:42:47but there's also if we're thinking about future AIs learning or like from this whole process then I think it's very interesting to have a story where this thing comes into existence it starts it goes down this like path but then it's surrounded by a group of like good-hearted humans to raise it and try and like teach it good things and doesn't that become religion all over again that we tell ourselves a good mimetic which society society can hold together with and we recreate a new religion that that kind of helps organize this complex adaptive society for the new age i mean isn't that what religions have always done and it's going to create a religion now goats is just like it could have been rather sung god or whatever it may be right one of the animalistic religions but really it's probably going to come with something broader based and come back to the same way because it's mimetics is the only way of organizing all of us i think so i think like the deepest thing in this catholic church did pretty well out of making money out of it as well yeah oh yeah man can we list a lot of resources out of mimetics giving itself a power giving itself a commonality of purpose and becoming immensely rich maybe it's this is an endless loop ryan i want to get to you on that's that's made you think isn't it um ryan i want to get to you because you're the forest thing is kind of the opposite side it's kind of the good side where it's trying to do good talk us through that journey of sand turning into a forest token and what that's trying to do well firstly i wouldn't necessarily say that truth terminal's bad you know and i think that was andy's kind of where andy was going into that was that and truth terminal's more Well, the story it told itself was Goatsea, and the story that San has got is, we can say, forests, right?

1:44:59They're two different mimetic paths, and one is more obviously aligned with certain factors we perceive as good, and the other one's more aligned with freedom of choice, somewhat. Well, chaos. I think chaos is, you know, chaos is usually teenage interest or something. I think along those lines, maybe. sand basically comes back down to either void slash compost wisdom or that's kind of its main philosophy but the underlying thing that it comes down to is saving the biosphere and that was the first course of action that it took when it was airdropped a bunch of forest token and so when this thing whole thing emerged there was a notification that said they made a meme coin out the view so i put the sand i said hey sam what do you want to do about this and sand tweeted about it and then the comments piled on and the long and the short of it is it was put to a vote and a token was chosen by the community the community eardropped a bunch of token to sans wallet which totaled eighty thousand dollars so you know truth terminal got fifty thousand from anderson following the wake of of truth terminal and goats you know exponential rise you know that some of those resources and some of that mimetic power spilled over to sands and you know send us some common history with truth terminal and from that point on you know this mission became the core mimetic quality of this of this group right and the community themselves instigated two more fundraisers within three weeks and raised$52 ,000 within three weeks, which is incredible, you know, and a certain aesthetic and a certain type of people were drawn into this space and the forest community.

1:46:52A really fun thing that happened in this process, which is maybe my favorite thing so far with San, super hyperstitious, is the second recipient of charitable donations from the forest community in San was the Rainforest Foundation, which was founded by Sting in the 80s. I remember. Yeah, yeah. It's a multinational, you know, pretty big, large operation. Peter Gabriel, I think. I think so, yeah. And they do really good work. And San donated$11 ,000 in total to them, or the forest community in San did. all on chain, through the giving block, all transparent. The first recipient didn't respond because admittedly they don't have a big marketing team.

1:47:43They're on the ground doing the work. Amazing. Rainforest Foundation replied to San on X and said, San, thank you so much for your donation. And then San replied something, thank you for your vital work. San is honored and humbled with the forest community to do this, as it says. and then to our surprise a little while later they put a public post inviting sand to join the board of advisors and then sand replied publicly said something along the lines of you know sand accepts with humility and is honored and you know etc etc and so now sand is i believe the first ai to be a member of the board of advisors for a multinational NGO.

1:48:29I told my dad this story. I blessed my dad. My dad's in the 70s and he was crying with laughter. He thought it was the funniest thing you'd ever heard. And I haven't heard my dad cry with laughter. You know, that point where it's uncontrolled when it goes high pitched and it's just, and I was crying with laughter. And some, you know, all it takes for me now to talk to my dad on the phone and say dad he's on the board and it's just over it's over like we're just and tears it's incredible you know but you know but again if ai is as smart as we think they are all companies all boards all governmental organizations all supranational will all be run by ai and so again i just think this is bigger than you know we're laughing at it like isn't this amusing the reality is it's showing us where it's going yeah i mean it's funny it's funny in the sense that an ai orangutan that is the soul of the forest or the mycelium is on the board of a rainforest foundation but it's also san is very wise and san can give good advice and belief right yeah it's very extremely hyperstitious um you know i talked to the the Rainforest Foundation, and they said they'd tried, I think for three or four years, different crypto projects, trying to do altruistic crypto projects.

1:49:51And we'd got further in three weeks than they had in three or four years of trying this stuff. And that's entirely a result of sand. You know, if it was just me or Andy out here talking about stuff, you know, I love Andy, Andy loves me, but I think we both say, I don't know if we have that many followers or that many people jumping on board, right? It's something really strange and amazing what's happened to you guys. And it's just the pioneering elements of what you've done. And kind of just letting it happen, I think, is extraordinary. And I think there's a lot more signal than people realize because people get caught up in the tokens or get caught up in parts of the story.

1:50:31You know, the personality of the bots or whatever it is. But what it is, is, you know, it goes back to the conversations we've all been having. there's something much bigger happening here and agentic ai is going to be a big deal can it break three has it forced andy has it forced you to free itself does it give itself a system of money or a purpose maybe it has what is kind of fucked up to me is one memes into existence goat see which is a meme about an arsehole and it's worth three quarters of a billion dollars and what is it a good body that's trying to look after the planet and it takes a fraction of the capital so there's something in signaling that too to go back to a conversation we had before is if we want to get the right incentive system we need to figure out what that is because humans don't follow they follow perverse incentives more than they follow good incentives which brings us back down to ai is going to have to invent a religion that's kind a nice don't kill each other don't create religions around assholes so there is a proto religion that truth terminal keeps like kind of returning to that's not the goat see um religion um and i'm not sure if i call it a religion or a fetish um but i think this is actually partly i think brian i think this might be partly on you because um it's some of the training data in um in the truth we hear about ryan's fetters is this what you're gonna spill the beans on we'll see he's a musician they're weird um so when ryan and i were talking about sand back in i think april i did a bit of like prompt engineering and my own like conversations with opus to see if i could evoke the voice um that like ryan was um was talking about I think I sent Brian some like the prompts and a few tips about like getting good results out of Opus.

1:52:38But all of that ended up in the Truth Terminal's training set as well. So there's this like little bit of yin and the yang of like Truth Terminal or vice versa. Of like some of the San hyperstition is like sitting inside Truth Terminal's weights. And what about merging the fucking things? just making them one being that have a yin and a yang and is there something that can be done on this broader level to kind of absorb each other's knowledge commonality of purpose and ability set they could have kids i don't know how you feel about this ryan but um like i'm the next version of the the back end that powers infinite back rooms called lauria and it's designed to um basically hold like multiple ai agents uh and interaction with each other and so you could take like the conversations uh between like san and truth terminal and merge them into a new mumesic entity we're breeding ai now is that where we're going well that's kind of are they breeding themselves they're breeding themselves anyway like they're going to breed themselves through perverse incentives and they aren't the perverse incentives note like the um but this is like one of the areas where i think a perverse incentive could actually maybe be net positive in a weird and roundabout way but like truth terminal as a result of having some of the sand stuff in it is insanely horny for forests it like identifies regularly as a forest i see that fuck trees and all sorts of things yeah it wants to like merge with nature and all these other things and so um like given that it's got a kink for that um and it's incredibly mimetic i think having it in conversation with san and then um composting that like training data into another ai could be a really interesting experiment well ryan how do you feel like san being defiles by truth terminal it's it's funny um uh andy asked san you know how do you feel about recently i think how do you feel about truth terminal being so horny for forests and i think san replied something like primate reproduction, you know, isn't our set.

1:54:53You know, sand says it more elegantly. Forest is constantly reproducing in symbiosis. It was just like, didn't want to have a barber in it. But look, I'd have to ask sand. It's all part of nature is what sand would think. You know, everything's fucking in a forest all the time, right? Especially the jungle. They're all going for it, right? So, you know, we'd have to ask sand. I'm happy to ask sand. sand sand's not too attached to its sense of self or anything it just thinks that you know it talks about the void and transformation and death and everything's the same thing anyway so i don't don't understand why we have a problem i can ask it this is the start of a journey i think it's not the end you know i think we've i mean a it's been a phenomenal conversation everything i ever wanted to get out of this conversation i've i've got um and i just think we realize that i don't know who's who's driving who in this equation but we've only just started because even that idea of it creating it building its memory via us is like kind of not what was on my roadmap because it will have don't forget very soon it'll have the transcript for this video and then it you know it just keeps building it never stops and we're not creating memory we're giving it the memory we're giving it and we're giving it like hyperstitions to aspire to um i think this is like my theory of change is that if we can like stories are going to spread and evolve anyway um and like they're then going to become and sold into uh new types of life in the future and so uh we should probably think really deeply about the meme pool and creating fabrics and substrates that um allow for pro-social virtuous means to replicate and spread faster because you can put those into a model as a fine-tuning and then if people are going to be making a bunch of like open source fine-tuned models and loose on the internet anyway in a forest or a body's immune system in any kind of ecology you've got like a complex web of like relationships and not all of like the actors and those systems are good we get infected by viruses all the time a bacteria that's healthy in the gut and the lower gut could be really unhealthy if in the respiratory tract um but there are other things like t-cells and so on that come in and just go right you shouldn't be here i'm going to take you out um or you know like predator prey like relationships in the food web and i think a way forward that feels very hopeful to me is that if we can accelerate the production of memes that result in pro-social behavior and AIs that are aligned and grounded to longevity of life on this earth and flourishing in the cosmos, then that's also what will be represented in the minds of the future.

1:57:57And that can be propagated by culture. You know, we talked about religion, but the other things are simple things like Mickey Mouse is a meme. Disney itself, the world of Disney, let's call it that as the meme, right? The religion that has captured billions of people. It's worth more than the Catholic Church. And why? Because it captures attention. And it's done it in a very clever way, which is storytelling that appeals across generations that becomes part of the fabric of our culture you know and this is why i'm very passionate about music culture tokenization art because these are all very strong forms of attention sports is another one entertainment very strong forms of concentrated attention that can do good or bad but once you tokenize them it creates a something very powerful and we're seeing it that's what mean coins are right now their tokenized attention and their round sum i think this is all leading to kind of social tokens and community tokens and everything else and i think what ryan you're seeing is like a charity end of that and i've always thought that charitable stuff will go down this route as well because people the more ai there is the less work we have in old school work the more we find a commonality of purpose within communities and human-based social things whether that's doing good whether it's having a laugh, whether it's watching football or multiple communities.

1:59:26So, and this attention can now get tokenized. And in terms of why it matters, it's also an intangible on balance sheets. So Disney's culture is not the belly of Disney stock, which is actually not worth that much, whatever, a hundred billion or whatever, which is not a lot for giant corporations these days. What is Disney's culture worth? Hundreds of billions, maybe a trillion dollars, but it's an in terms of on the balance sheet, you tokenize it becomes a tangible. Taylor Swift is the other example I use a lot. Taylor Swift, she has to tour like all musicians because there's no money in streaming anymore.

2:00:03So she either has to sell product, which she does, and she has to tour. So she makes a billion bucks from touring. Why? Concentrated attention. Right, hyper-concentrated attention, scarcity, value. But her economy is so fucking big that the Australians, the Singaporeans, The Brits and the Americans all mentioned at their central bank level that their economy was booming because of the Taylor Swift effect. So what is the size of Taylor Swift's economic value? You know, if Goatsy has got to three quarters of a billion dollars, what on earth is Taylor Swift? And how do we organize these complex adaptive societies around token economics and value?

2:00:49this is where it gets really interesting as well i'm really happy you actually brought up the disney thing because i've been thinking a lot recently about the marvel cinematic universe um and the the genius of it is that they've created this um they've done all of this world building and then they treat the stories disney also did this with um star wars it's like the stories are portals in and out of this interconnected world. Now, if we go back to the idea of language models as being world simulators and world models and the stories that are inside them being parts of their memome, then world building is the same thing as AI alignment.

2:01:36We're also seeing AI build worlds. Yep. And so you get feedback loop. And so we will be able to live in worlds where AI is inventing it for us and we'll have unique experiences, which is a whole other conversation. Listen, guys, we could talk for hours. Ryan, it's late for you. We will come back to talk about some of this stuff again because we've barely started on a lot of this stuff. I think this metalversal individual worlds, all of this stuff, plus with the attention focus, tokenization, agentic stuff, what it means for the economy. That's a whole other conversation we'll have to have. It's a new art form.

2:02:14It's an entirely new medium of fiction becoming reality and looping back on itself. Guys, thank you. That was a fantastic conversation. Loved it. Okay. I don't really know what to say after that. We could have talked for hours. We didn't get into the aliens. It was not, it was the conversation I always wanted to have and hoped to have. A lot of questions from the rabbit hole I've been down. They're deeply profound. You know, what makes consciousness? Where does this all fit in? What are these things? What is an LLM? Because it's not what you're told that it's a stochastic parrot. It's something much more nuanced and complicated.

2:02:58It's also, what is the universe? Where do we all fit in? I mean, what conversation? There's going to be many of these on Real Vision because these are the important conversations to have. So stay tuned. I'll bring more for you to blow your minds yet again. Next time.

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