Surveillance States & The Fight for Financial Freedom

31:11That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash G-O slash R-E-A-L-B-I-S-I-O-N. yeah so this is uh the debate of a lot of conspiracy theories um but i i think these things are always overdetermined meaning everybody thinks it's because thing x or thing y or thing z but really it's some combination of all those leading to some like social like this is just how social media algorithms work right which is to say somebody starts talking about it more than usual which leads to somebody else talking about it more than usual and this can really only happen if by the way like the things make sense and also when naval says things people take it like the word of god has been delivered and exactly and so that sparks a lot of interest to do it you can tell naval's footprint everywhere because suddenly tim ferris is now tweeting about um zcash and like tim's close friend of naval's it's hilarious to see and even after he said oh i learned arthur learns it from from naval as well yeah yeah uh like i didn't realize that tim ferris actually now follows me and i was like okay interesting um but like it's it's really like i think the social media algorithms are the most obvious answer which is say i started talking about it quite a bit even in 2024 um and then until price moved like like it at first it moved like 10 or something and then it caught the eyes of like some of my other friends we then started talking about it and then it just kept kind of sticking in people's brains and then obviously nalala talked about it who like i know nalala um and then obviously that is a huge catalyst but then like chris was also talking about it before me as well barry was talking about it and so you combine that with obviously price action um because you know like let's face it it's not a very liquid asset if you buy any amount on binance at least in that time it just goes up or down um and you combine that with um like the fact that what i mean monero got 51 attacked for a few weeks before zki started going up so like it was kind of top of mind for people um and then yeah like you said europe getting just increasingly draconian and then you just kind of combine all these different things.

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34:13In addition, Gemini's Active Trader gives you professional grade tools like custom views, charts and alerts so you can trade and manage your portfolio all in one place. Terms apply. Signing up is free. Start investing today at Gemini.com forward slash real vision. And, you know, I think, you know, one of the things you've mentioned in the past is that it does appeal to Bitcoiners. So the original people who are in the space, it's it's the next step for them is like, you know, I wouldn't mind doing some of this as well as just in case policy. So a quick break in your regular programming. If you're serious about your future, grab my free report called Prepare for 2030.

34:52I think you've got five years to make as much money as possible. And this guide will help you navigate what's coming. The link is in the description. Download it now. Yeah, yeah, that's a very spicy topic because it certainly appeals to certain Bitcoins. And then certain Bitcoiners really hate it. I mean, I haven't seen them hate anything this bad in a while, which is like I used to make fun of this because it's like, look, you're like fart coin and like actual scam coins going up. You don't care about those. But if the one coin that just takes Bitcoin and encrypts it makes you mad, like there's something interesting there.

35:26Right. And but yeah, like it is one of the coins where it did seem like it was the most collaborative I've seen crypto Twitter, which is to say, like people who care about privacy on Solana, Cosmos, Ethereum, Bitcoin, all are like, oh, actually, I like to see Zcash doing well, because like this is a big core component of crypto, which is privacy, right? Like you can't necessarily have freedom from the state if the state can actually just watch everything you're doing at all times anyway, right? Like you can kind of tell yourself that story, but if they know who you are, then like you're missing a certain piece of it.

36:07And then also on the money part, and this part's maybe a bit more controversial, but one of the core properties of, let's say, gold or money is fungibility, right? You can swap one piece, one kilogram of gold for another. With Bitcoin, and we saw this in Canada with the truckers, that might not be the case because it's traceable, right? Like you can see Bitcoin, here's its path, here's who held it. It was a terrorist organization. And now you might not be able to exchange that Bitcoin for the same value, right and you you don't have this with like gold and cash because you have privacy and privacy enables true fungibility right and so from the if you approach it from first principles it does seem like this side of of money the side of store of value that privacy enables is also pretty slept on the hard part of all of this is we're all tired from the battle i mean i've been in the space since 2013.

37:08And you've had to go through every piece of shit, fight every single authority. You had to fight regulation. And here, you're actually asking people to do it all over again. Because to choose privacy is to choose the battle against the state yet again, to exert our rights over our money. And it's hard, because the first thing they'll try and do is shut it down. And we've all lived through this all the way through, you know, crypto, 12 years of crypto have taught me this, but we're gonna have to do that all over again, aren't we? Yeah, no, that's, I think that's the strongest counter. Like, I think that's a very valid point.

37:45And it also goes into the question of why now, which is to say, look, who is president, okay, we have a president releasing meme coins, and, and, and, you know, putting like random shit coins on the reserve and all these different things. And so while we're legalizing all these different random things, that are maybe not the best parts of crypto, we should probably also legalize, like, I mean, if you're American, like your literal rights, right? Like privacy is our right in many parts of the world, not everywhere, but like it is normal, right? Like you, it shouldn't be the case that, oh, my money's private because I have something to hide.

38:21It's like, no, it's like, you know, it's just none of your business. Same reason why I don't broadcast all my messages. Same reason why I don't walk around naked. It's like, it's none of your business. I don't need to hide anything. I'm not going to break the law, right? Like, if I want to do that, I would just not use the internet at all, actually. But, like, you know, I think while Trump is president, while there's this extremely crypto-friendly administration, it's a good time to push on this and get clarity around, like, what is allowed, what is not allowed. can we can we like you even have um you know uh katie han who's one of my investors at han ventures um but also the actually the commissioner of the sec like hester pierce um they both written uh long blog posts about like hey america like are we infringing the privacy of our our financial or like the the the user's financial lives right like is this really correct um we need to really think about this and like has to appear Steven says uh I think the quote is like you need to fight zealously for the right for your own privacy it when it comes to money the issue is even if the US agrees it for now it is not clear that anybody can because of the US FATCA laws so this is the the kind of KYC AML that the US has forced on everybody in the world that they are so scared of that, that they can't allow privacy because they're so obsessed by money laundering and terrorist funding and all of this stuff that the US put into place.

39:57So it kind of sets up everybody in the battle here because it's impossible even for Europe to deal with it. Yeah, no, it's again, that's like whenever people ask me about this thesis, that is always the hardest part of it because like we don't have that much influence over it. We need the right administration. We need the right kind of amount of people evangelized that are voting with their own money and with raising awareness. Like there's certain ways to get around certain parts of this, like Toyota Cash, for example, has like ZK proofs for compliance. Like, hey, we can prove this didn't come from a terrorist operation or something.

40:37With things like ZKash, you won't be able to do that because that's like an L1 where you don't want that level of control. You want it to be truly state free. but like there is different ways to move around this and you know if the it's going to have to be a combination of like tools that are actually unstoppable in some sense like the true vision of crypto combined with sensible legislation and like i think there's always going to be some sort of a fight like nobody likes giving up control but like fundamentally the governments exist to serve us right like in in the general sense the purpose of the government is to serve its people and so if the people want something then if it's a functioning system it should be the case that it moves more towards the people than completely away from them yeah but we would then have to go through i mean i don't disagree and i think what makes it interesting is having a battle ahead and you see a path through it means that the asset is underpriced versus its potential so you know that's that's always the good thing if you if you can see a path through it then it gets there but it is it's very difficult because we're going to go again through all the politicians saying well well, it's for drug money and it's through all of this.

42:00And that's a difficult fight to have when all these governments don't have enough taxes to pay their bills. Yeah, I think, again, I think that's a good point. I think the fight is going to be fought. And I think we can make it a very rational one to say, look, cash is more private than crypto. right like people can already do this today um they can already do this with your other europe just banning cash even further you know so it makes it yeah it makes it really hard to transact in cash in europe beyond you know a couple of thousand euros now yeah yeah so europe specifically is really going the complete opposite way of most of uh sanity but like um i i think and i mean they're not even doing this with just money by the way they're doing this with I think there was a chat control proposal where they tried to put backdoors on all private chats ever which you know like at some point like there's only so much indignity you can treat your people with before they are like look we're going to let the new governments like you can't just completely take like I should be able to have private chats with my friends like you should not be able to read that okay like we can do this in person like it's unless you're going to ban me from actually meeting my friends right like i think um but but yeah certainly that is the one big uh question which is going to be like okay is it going to be some you know regulatory arbitrage thing where like some people actually allow it some people don't and then people flee to certain regions i mean that's already kind of happening today with people going to like uh you know let's say dubai singapore uh different parts of the world it's already been kind of slowly happening and that's kind of the largest theory as well we can do it in network state terms and it makes sense if you want to put your money into places that treat your money better, one of them will be the availability of privacy.

43:53Yeah. Yeah. So I don't have any great, comfortable, confident answers. Otherwise, there'd be no upside, right? Like, otherwise, there'd be no risk. That is the point. That's the point. You know, when I, you know, I think Bitcoin for me, it was at 200 and I wrote the first ever kind of macro strategy piece on it. And it was like, listen, it might go to zero, but I think it goes to 100 ,000 and at$200, this is probably the best bet I've ever seen. And it kind of works out in the end, but the path is a difficult path. And it feels the same here. For me, it's very rare that I hear something that really makes me sit back and think.

44:28And the Zcash thing has really made me sit back and think that, you know, you're right, that privacy in one way, shape or form doesn't have to be for all your money, but something is going to be very important in the world going forwards. You know, we also have to contend with a massive rise of AI agents and the power of how people can use that against you and your money and, you know, any mistake you make online, all of this stuff makes it very, very difficult. And to have money shielded away from that is another plus point because, you know, the attack vectors get faster and smarter every day.

45:04Yeah. I mean, it's, and then on like the other dimension here is, um, like it's, it's also, Also, I mean, at least for me, like, I don't necessarily need the money, to be frank. It's more like, like, what kind of world do you want to live in and what you want your children to live in? Is it a world where they just do not? It's like they always have to get permission from their daddy, the state to do anything they want. Or is it a future where the individual actually has control over their life? Right. And it's like, even if that mission doesn't work, it's like, look, we have to try and we're going to keep trying.

45:38Like somebody needs to do it. And why are they doing this? Why are the why is the state becoming more oppressive over time? Oh, that's that's probably a better question for a biology who is like who can just tell you an entire history lesson. I know Bellagio would, but I just want to see your why do you think it is? I mean, observationally, it's we can it's clear, but it's not clear why it actually is a pretty good question. I think it's due to the incentive structure, which is to say, if you are somebody who can, and like, by the way, I don't think these people are all like evil. I think it's they're kind of just playing the roles that this structure has set up for them.

46:24So, for example, they might actually mean well. They might be, you know, in their own way thinking like, hey, we want to protect you from terrorism and all those different things. therefore we need to do such and such. And maybe they think they're right. Right? And so like I think some of it generally is good faith from some of them, not all of them. But I do think like there's a, I think Taleb has a really good framing on this, which is like some of these people have no skin in the game. Right? Like they are detached from the results of their actions. I think the most clear example of this was like the Hawks that basically want wars in certain parts of the world.

47:06So, you know, back in the day, for example, you would have the generals on the front lines, and if they make the wrong decision, they die with the troops. Now that's not the case, right? Now what happens is somebody in this cozy little room with a bunch of security tells people, hey, go do this. It was the wrong decision. It doesn't affect them, right? Like, at most, they lose some money, or maybe somebody tweets at them. And then at best, they get eternal glory, basically. They say, oh, like, this person's a genius. And so the incentive is very skewed. And so that makes people do a lot of things for their own reasons, as opposed to, like, what's the optimal incentive for society as a whole.

47:45So I do think a lot of it comes to a lack of skin in the game and detachment from reality, which is why you get, like, all these. I think, like, the best way to understand this is to just read Taleb's skin in the game book, where I think he, like, probably is super harsh. but like I think he does have good points when it comes to the bureaucratic nature of the world today and I think your point that most of these people don't even realize they're doing it because they're thinking they're protecting the population because when you go to Europe it's a very different world than you read on Twitter you know when I hang out in Spain with friends nobody's going oh my god we're the oppressed people look what the government's doing they don't think about it at all They're like, fuck, yeah, they're stopping me using the cash that I got so I can avoid taxes.

48:30But, you know, I'll figure a different way around it. They don't seem to see it the same way as the kind of American lens on freedom. And so it's like a frog boiling in the water, because if the state does turn against you in a more serious way, if, and Europe's got a history of that, then you've got bigger problems than people understand. Yeah. And like, I don't know. So I'm obviously Turkish and I lived in Toronto. And which Canada, like people think Canada's a super safe place, extremely nice people. And then I'm in Dubai. The interesting thing is that Dubai is like infinitely safer than Canada, where the people are much nicer.

49:14And it's somehow much more diverse. uh like can't always try to do this diversity thing uh but it really just ends up being like two three countries match versus dubai just like all these random people from the world just trying to come in it's like i'm like how is this place more diverse more secure and i don't have to get taxed versus canada where i was told everything is such and such um so like i think a lot of um it's it's a good observation that like the skew the perception of people on on social media versus the real places is some of the widest i've seen where people think like if you come to dubai you can't even drive as a woman or something and i'm like i've seen women dress more uh let's say here than anywhere else in the world i don't know what you're talking about it's like um you know i I speak to friends of mine in England where I grew up and I'm like, well, is everybody getting knifed in the streets and every Rolex being taken?

50:12And, you know, they're like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I'm like, well, I say on X all day that the UK is a lawless society. That's full entirely fallen apart. They're like, no, just not like that at all. So there, there is a kind of a weird world where social media is skewed everything that you can't even tell what anything is like anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think like, Like, Europe has declined in my... Like, when I went to Brussels, I was like, I'm kind of scared to be here. Like, I haven't felt scared in the streets of Istanbul, but I feel scared here. It's kind of weird.

50:46But obviously, social media does have the incentive that the most outrageous thing has to dominate. And that's just the name of the game today. So, going back to the practicalities, how do people buy Zcash? And they need to understand the idea of shielding as well. because if not, you just number go up, but you're not doing the whole privacy thing. So yeah, explain how they do it because it's an important thing. I think the easiest way is on your mobile phone, you download the wallet called Zashi, Z-A-S-H-I. You just download it. And then there, if you click, like you'll see, you know, send, receive, pay.

51:28There's also a button that says more, and then it says swap. and then once it says swap, you can swap into it from any chain, right? So from Solana, Ethereum, Bitcoin even. And you just send funds to the address and it does a swap for you. And then it shields your ZEC for you as well. So it's in the shielded pool because you got to understand that Zcash has both a transparent version, which is Bitcoin basically. And then it has a shielded pool, which is the actual private version. And so Zashi shields it for you. I like to call it like your little Swiss vault in your pocket. It's literally an internet Swiss bank account, except you're storing Zcash instead.

52:11So that's the best way I would do it. And how do you see your own balance? How do you see it? Can you hold it in your ledger device? I mean, how does it work then, the practicality of owning this thing that doesn't exist? You can see your own balance because you have what's called the viewing key. So nobody else can see, but you can see it, obviously. um with um with ledger ledger does not have shield of sport yet they're adding it but keystone does so you can and the app will walk you through this um the other way is you go on sol swap.org so sol swap.org and it's a browser version of this where you can swap into zcash um you can obviously buy some centralized exchanges and then withdraw to your zashi wall to shield it you can actually buy it on Solana.

52:56We brought the Solana. So it's wrapped ZEC. And so you can swap into it on Solana and then maybe bridge back. You can do the same thing on Hyperliquid. So that was one of my big focuses, which is like, I need to get this app or token on DeFi because if the centralized exchanges do delist it, then we need to actually make sure that people can still get it. And that's the whole point of decentralized finance, right? So now we have that as well. Why can't the shielding technology be used for other tokens? So using ZK technology stack, can it not be applied to other chains as well? Oh, yeah, of course.

53:32Yeah. With Zcash, we think that it's probably best to limit it to one asset so that it's one focus in reducing attack surfaces, kind of like Bitcoin, where you don't want to do too many things. But other chains, certainly like, for example, Solana has this thing called Privacy Cash, which is like a shielded soul pool where you can put your Solana and you can make it much more private than it was. And then they're adding stablecoin support as well. And then Ethereum has this, obviously, with Hornado Cash. And then, you know, we're adding a lot of different privacy solutions to all these different chains.

54:08So for Xeniafla and Solana, there's going to be these things called self-addresses, which is to say, like, every time you receive something, you would give out a new address. Obviously, that's very annoying to do. You have to always create a new wallet and give people new addresses. But there's actually a way you can actually do that, engineer that on your phantom app, such that it always does this automatically for you, which gets you that privacy, that peace of mind without you actually having to do any different UX. So like there is a lot of advancements being made on all sorts of different chains.

54:43It's not just Zcash. So then how does Zcash accrue the value if it's doable elsewhere? If privacy becomes something you can opt into on any major chain, then why does Zcash continue as is? Or is it moneyness because it's basically the clone of Bitcoin that helps it do that? Yeah, I mean, it's I think it depends on the guarantees that you want, right? Like if you want the most secure, the asset, the highest level of privacy, then Zcash is going to be the correct thing for you, right? And then like every other version of it would have to be like a wrapped version where there's like a central custody or trust assumption.

55:27that being said like it's not the case that like for example if you have private soul and you have private Zek you know soul isn't necessarily money it's more like a gross stock if the revenues dry up the risk profile looks different and all these different things it has infinite supply in some sense right inflation is different all these different things and also with Solana what you need to understand with anything that's not Zek or anything that's not privacy first, is it's kind of like Solana versus Ethereum. And what I mean by this is that unless, if you go back to my physics example, unless you optimize for something from the bottom up, you always get these leaks that come up in different parts of the stack, right?

56:12And privacy is the best example of this because privacy is actually the absence of something. Privacy is the absence of information. It is the minimizing of leakage. And so, for example, let's say you are doing something on Ethereum with your MetaMask wallet and you're using a privacy pool. Well, what wallet are you using to do that? Probably MetaMask, right? Okay. Now, MetaMask does have your information, right? So your money might be shielded, but like you're still leaking some information. And so, like, you need to be very careful. And so, like, most people don't want to think about all this stuff.

56:49They just want, here's, like, my security. Here's my gold. And then here's like my money, which is mobile. The other thing is, how do you know that you just aren't trapped in a rotation narrative? Because this happened when everything else was doing not well. And we've seen this, these repeated cycle, narrative cycles. How do you know it's not another false start from Zcash? Because this would be the third one. um do we have to wait for let's say a correction and then confirmation that we as the market goes up it goes up continues in the same kind of trajectory because you know so many people have been caught out by these narrative rotations yeah yeah i think every time and i'm always extremely skeptical of narrative rotations like for example i did not buy a single ai token um I just did not think the tech was there.

57:47And I'm like a pretty big, let's say, teal subscriber in that I always try to go for things that nobody else is going after and try to be more contrarian than not. With privacy, I think one of the things I want to do was I didn't want to just market Zcash. I want to market all privacy because I think it's one of the last things that's truly PVE as opposed to PVP. right which is to say like when one privacy thing does well most of them do well and that reinforces that effect right because it's not something that you can just win you need to raise awareness from the bottom of everywhere for the legislation battles and all these different things it's a big awareness game um and like if you just look at it from the fundamentals it is the most slept on right that is to say we have done the infrastructure we have done the moneyness thing we have done the scale thing.

58:40We have done the DeFi thing. We have done all these different things, but we haven't done a core pillar of crypto, which is privacy. And so it's a fundamental thing, right? Like it's why the industry was created. It's why the cypherpunks existed. And so like you need to look at some of that stuff and the fundamentals, right? Now you look at the issuance curve, which mimics Bitcoin, but like obviously, so like that was a recent one as well. A year ago, Colby wrote a piece on this where the issuance curve is coming down as well. You then have like other institutional players like the winkle boss twins are coming in with like a a new dat and i think they have about one percent of the supply but their target is like five percent right um and then they're gonna have competitors of course um we have for example i'm throwing a hackathon called cypherpunk and you've got an amazing group of people doing that yeah yeah so we have like uh me totally balaji zuko uh kobe uh uh ellie we have a bunch of people uh anderson harwitz etc etc and um that's like the part because i'm an engineer like i'm not like necessarily a trader where it's like we actually want to build the fundamental structures from the bottom up such that this thing is usable right uh same thing that we did for solana and then you know you have things like um uh zashi uh and then there's something called project tachyon which aims to scale Zcash 100 times, right?

1:00:06With Shombo. And so like you add all these things up. And then it's like, okay, I think there probably is some aspects of like narrative and speculation and froth, like for sure, that always happens in crypto. But like, when you take all that away, there's still a very strong base that remains, right? And I think, like, I really, really think, and because like i'm going to keep working on it that'll be a top three project uh in the next five to ten years max yeah i mean i've i'm always cynical of the narrative rotations but this is the only one that stopped me and said you know what this is probably right um because you know having been in this game for a long long time i realized very quickly as well that this is the thing that may well matter more than people understand.

1:00:56And these things price like options. So you just think of them as probabilities. And the probability of privacy becoming a more important factor is essentially the price of the asset going up over time. And there's no indication that this is not going to become more of a problem over time, particularly when we all move to blockchain rails for all of our finances. and AI or AGI can basically pick it apart in milliseconds. It's like, what fucking chance do we have? At a simple level of what fucking chance do we have against AGI and blockchain rails makes you realize, you know what, it's something you need to pay attention to.

1:01:36That's kind of my framing of this in my head. Yeah, I think that's totally fair. Naval frames it in a way as to like, Bitcoin is insurance against fiat and then Zcash is insurance against Bitcoin. Some people frame it as like you want like, you know, maybe you want their target of something like 10 % of Bitcoin for Zcash because not everybody will think it's as important as money. Right. Some people are like super, you know, like you can make the case that there's like super high net worth people who are basically looking to replace their offshore banking stuff as everything gets more digital.

1:02:10So there's all these different kind of themes around like me personally. I'm more like, you know, if I have the option of unencrypted money and encrypted money, which one am I going to choose? Well, I'm going to try to at least choose an encrypted money one with an amount that I think is comfortable. And so, like, I think there's always different things. But, like, the important part is that, like, it just makes sense, right? Like, it's not like somebody's selling you, like, this weird circular thing. It's kind of like, look, it's Bitcoin, but it's secret, right? It's Internet native money has to be private.

1:02:43Like we went from cash to Bitcoin, which is improvements in many ways, or gold to Bitcoin, which is improvement in many ways. But it does have some drawbacks that have to be acknowledged, which is the fungibility and the transparency part. Right. And so, like, why not? And it's not like an either or thing, right? Like you don't have to pick between them. Most people will just pick both on some different ratio. Joe. Yeah, it's, you know, how I think of it, if you think of like wealthy families, how much of their allocations are they holding gold in physical vaults in different countries, right?

1:03:16Many of them do. They have some in Singapore, some in, you know, some in Dubai, some in Switzerland, pretty standard. And what percentage of that of their portfolio is that? That's their essentially private money, or if anything goes wrong, I've got physical access to this. It's the same thing, and it's going to be a percentage of like 5 % or 10 % of your magic internet money can be magic private internet money. And that kind of makes sense. Yeah. And like what my favorite part of this is that it's actually extremely usable. So one of the reasons why it also Zcash started taking off much more is because there was a few big tech improvements.

1:03:53So Zashi is the one that I mentioned, but this, this near intense thing, which we're like near access, this like coordination layer, where basically you have on your phone, you know, your Zcash balance that's shield. Nobody can see it. And then you just click this button called pay. And then you can swap in one click into USDC or any token on any chain within a minute. Right. So, for example, if I want to something, you know, sometimes I'll pay with for flights using crypto. And it's like, OK, let me just press this one button for my Zcash wallet and then instantly transfer to USDC on Solana. Right.

1:04:28And it's like not only is it not traceable. I don't have to KYC. I don't have to do any of this stuff. And it's very cheap, right? There's very minimal fees. And that's like, in some sense, it's kind of why crypto was created to me, right? Like, you can actually move money on the internet that's backed by, let's say, your private digital gold. And you can use that to just do everyday transactions in commerce. There's like a meme where like Zuko will use it to buy like burritos at Chipotle, which he does all the time and post about it. But like you can actually like I send money to people this way all the time.

1:05:08It's extremely simple. Super interesting. Thank you very much for that. It was I think a lot of people find it very interesting. And and I think everybody should follow you on Twitter because you're one of the best voices there. I don't know how you I'm not sure you actually do a job apart from shit. I have really good co-founders. That's what you say all the time. There must be very, very tolerant of you. Yeah, yeah. We went to school together. I remember 12 years, but they're used to it. Fantastic. Thank you, my friend. Really enjoyed it. Of course. Thanks for having me. So great conversation, I think.

1:05:46And I think you guys can start to see that there is meaningful value in privacy. It's not that we're trying to hide our bad actions. but I don't want to send my bank statement out to everybody I speak to online. That's ridiculous. You know, I think zero knowledge is part of this, and Zcash were pioneers of it. There's a lot can be done around the whole privacy spectrum. We need to make sure, however, that this narrative is going to catch hold and really go to the next level. It's early stage yet. Even though the protocol has been around for a while, it's whether it really captures hold of people's understanding.

1:06:27What we do know is many states around the world are becoming more inhibitive of our liberties and less free. And so that means you've got to take it seriously. Anyway, hopefully see you next time. And we'll dig into something also in this exponential world that you might find interesting too. Till next time. You obviously enjoyed the episode because you're here with me at the end. But listen, don't forget to go to realvision.com forward slash join and grab a free membership. It's an incredible community packed with alpha, great investment ideas, and the research that you need to help you unfuck your future.

1:07:05So get started now. Go to realvision.com forward slash join.